Design Trends We Don't Like | EDHRECast 309

Some recent designs just have us a little concerned....
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[@pytawidmo]

It may sound counterintuitive, but one of the design trends that imo is having a negative impact on the design and play space is avoiding drawbacks and avoiding "feel-bads". The game is more interesting when you learn to play around things and think how to avoid the feel-bad situations instead of being spoon-fed ways to protect yourself from your mistakes.

[@wafflehaxxx]

Not only that, but previously legendaries would reward certain playstyles, but require multiple pieces to function. Card that gives tons of mana now also gives outlets for mana (Like Kinnan, Urza), cards that generate tokens now have additional abilities that scale the tokens even harder (Najeela, Urtet). You no longer have to combine two pieces of a puzzle, everything is a self-contained engine.

[@chrisguard696]

drawbacks are hype

[@casually_lurking]

Magic is falling into Yugioh's pitfall, that being gutting its own balance while uncosting power. You trade something for something in TCGs, it's as simple as that.

[@scaredycat3146]

Well it turned out the majority of the playerbase played around the drawbacks of their cards by not playing cards with drawbacks.

[@simonchi5372]

@@scaredycat3146 Or you build whole decks around them, like Death's Shadow.

[@jturn314]

The biggest problem with the unrelenting use of Ward is that it’s now pretty much objectively correct to just swap out all of your removal for board wipes. Like if I’m paying four mana for a swords or six mana for a beast within, I might as well be casting a Wrath of God or whatever.

[@ekolimitsLIVE]

Yes. Exactly

[@lVideoWatcherl]

Exactly this

[@kevinmccauley8992]

I don't think this is true, too many board wipes can lead to a much worse experience than otherwise, and 3 or 4 mana for swords/path can still be better than wiping your own stuff many times

[@mfitkin]

@@kevinmccauley8992came here to say this too. Unless you’re loaded with asymmetrical board wipes, then they’re saying it’s worth wrathing their own board to avoid paying the extra ward cost, which might rarely be worth it for a must-answer threat that is immediately ending the game, but is probably not worth it almost all of the time. Plus, what about all the non-ward creatures that you now can’t target because you pulled all your pinpoint removal out of the deck

[@RedCometNurse]

Board Wipes lengthen games and make them kinda unbearable if there are tons of them coming down.

[@Cheesewiz]

It feels like Ward is something that Wizards really ramped up lately due to Casual Commander, so people wouldn't feel as bad about getting their cool powerful Commander/card removed. Problem is that they rarely account for that extra protection in a card's casting/design cost, whereas before with Hexproof, Shroud and even Indestructible, they were much more selective and deliberate designing around strong built in protection abilites hahaha

[@Kryptnyt]

They look at the custom magic cards on the internet and see all the indestrucible hexproof uncounterable creatures, and they see this as things people want. And maybe people who were once making custom online cards are now working for Wizards. I think ward can be a pretty healthy option to staple onto a creature or a card that grants ward to things, but there is such a thing as too heavy a ward cost.

[@Teedo_]

Quickly, let's talk about graveyard hate while Joey is away

[@Tuss36]

It does feel like they cost it at about the same rate as other keywords where they toss it on as extra spice, when as you say it should probably be costed slightly higher like indestructible sort of is. Though perhaps it's in that weird "half mana" spot things like counterspells often end up in (2 mana is too little, but 3 is too much, so they make it 3 + upside) where it's not worth upping the cost that much, but also clearly isn't good at the rate it's currently given out at.

[@danielolsen3514]

I don't agree with this stance. Wotc clearly considers ward as an upside and designs with it in mind. Especially showing how theres different ward cost. And not just mana or even a flat mana rate. Ward-3 is different than ward-1 or ward - Discard. I'm not sure you can point to a design trend that shows that the ward is just "tacted on."

[@Will_Morand]

One thing I hate about Disguise compared to Morph is that it requires giving up information as specifying something having Ward 2 tells your opponents that the disguised creature is one of a very specific selection from MKM rather than any possible Morph card in your colors. Also I’m positive that Tergrid would have been given Ward if she came out today.

[@Spike-hl2mw]

Imagine tergrid with ward sac a creature or discard a card 😂😂😂

[@yavivanov6650]

​@@Spike-hl2mw Lol

[@Wojtek36762]

How many morph cards ever get played in commander? I can’t remember the last time I saw one get played face down outside of a dedicated morph deck. The joke used to be “every face down card is a Willbender” because people knew it was one of the only playable ones. I’d rather they try to keep the ability relevant for limited, standard and other formats than to make it unplayable but sneakier for commander.

[@zym6687]

@@Wojtek36762Looking through the list of them id include Bane of the living, Brine Elemental, Gathan Raiders, Grim Haruspex, Kadena's Silencer, Mischevous Quanar, Putrid Raptor, Rattleclaw Mystic, Riptide Entrancer, Root Elemental, Stratus Dancer, Tribal Forcemage, Vesuvan Shapeshifter, Voidmage Apprentice, Voidmage Prodigy, Willbender, Zoetic Cavern, Zombie Cutthroat in decks that are looking for the morph effect, Though theres others like Boneknitter that would go in and incidentally have a morph ability.

[@bladetb3934]

You can use scroll of fate to manifest them and the new vanifar let a you cloke cards from your hand to use morphs as disguises. There's still plenty you can do to be tricky even with the small pool of cards.

[@jaredcrawford923]

One of the natural checks for these high end overpowered commanders was the threat of them being immediately removed, this forced players to plan ahead and slot in those instant protection spells and equipment. This had the added effect of taking away card slots from the overall strategy. These new paint by numbers commanders have a baked in wincon on a huge body with built in protection. Big manna commanders absolutely should have big effects, but the player used to have to plan around the target that the commander would be, this is no longer the case.

[@Gweezy12]

There are so many checks against high commanders. Having to run more ramp than most, having to fit in protection, possible having a gameplan that doesn't include your commander. Protect is way easier to play with cheaper commanders. If i want to hold up a 2 mana protection spell and cast my commander that can be 2 to 3 more turn if you dont hit all your land drops. Lets also take into consideration that having a commander that comes out early is way less likely to be interacted with because players are still developing their board.

[@pytawidmo]

I wish Triomes were just a continuation of the Murmuring Bosk design, maybe not creature subtype focused, but having a single land subtype and having a drawback on the other colors.

[@CHAREDot9]

Yeah they could have just finished that cycle right😂

[@XenoMike]

I'm glad we touched base on wordy cards -- I love casual commander but I always sigh internally when a fresh game starts and everybody has 3-5 creatures out on the board. That's 12-20 paragraphs of text you have to keep track of simultaneously. People in my pod actually enjoy early board wipes or complete knock-outs solely because they cut down on cognitive load.

[@nickd6303]

Number of legendaries with shroud four(all are green), hex proof forty-two(seventeen are in green), ward currently fifty-nine(twenty-one are in green).

[@battlebear7214]

It's insane that there's ALREADY more creatures with ward than there are with hexproof.

[@Lucarioguild7]

That pretty neatly sums it up doesn't it holy shit, WotC is cuckoo for ward lol

[@jmanwild87]

@Lucarioguild7 ward feels a lot less strong than hexproof or shroud, so they are more gung-ho with it. The issue is putting it on must kill immediately type threats

[@jadegrace1312]

Good! Ward is an amazing mechanic. I hope they use it more.

[@EwMatias]

@@jadegrace1312 Absolutely. It's a little bit of protection without being untouchable. The problem is people treat it as if it were hexproof anyways. But that's a player issue.

[@zacharythorp6095]

This printing of Voja is leagues beyond Voja's elf companion, a rare from the set. There's literally no comparison between their power levels -- for the exact same mana value. Speaking of design trends: Why does the Elf part of the text not say "Target creature gets +X/+X", or "Your creatures get +X/+X until end of turn", or "One target creature gets X +1/+1 counters"? Given how easy it is to just vomit out Elves into play to trigger it? Also, worth asking, why is there NO MANA COST attached to that strong of an ability, such as X = Elf count and Y = Wolf count?

[@LordRedhand]

Best Ward story I have is that Minthara can have Ward 0, the mind game of asking your opponent in a serious voice, do you pay 0

[@jmanwild87]

to be fairs it's equally funny to have an experienced up minthara and ask do you pay the 7 or something absurd

[@facelessgames94]

I love using a Strionic Resonator effect to bait my opponents into wasting spells

[@sergbastian5]

This is such a mind-fuck move if you have any blue mana. Pretty funny

[@ykl1277]

​@facelessgames94 yourr spending mana first and if they can't pay both, they can just let it get countered. It's a much more conditional mana leak on isochron scepter

[@STS-qi1qy]

I like Ward as a concept. It is better than Shroud and Hexproof for the most part. It's just being overused at the moment.

[@drkillenger5564]

They made a weaker version of hexproof and then seemed to decide that because its weaker they can just slap it on whatever for free like Ovika and Voja. Its especially egregious when you get to cards like Sauron or Saruman where the ward cost is so ridiculous they may as well have just given them hexproof anyways. Ward should AT MOST be limited to 1-3 mana or a life payment, otherwise it being "weaker hexproof" is just a lie.

[@drkatz1192]

You guys had me giggling at the “Dana, this meme is 16 years old.” on my run today! Love the humor all!

[@kevin_Masters]

I love the farewell hate. All the Timmy’s wanted stronger cards and man did they got it. They even got ward stamped on in. Then. Control players asked. Give us 1 thing to deal with it. They got it and all the Timmy’s cry when it’s being cast. How often I cast a fieldwhipe and it’s just back the next turn. Or I help the non creature deck by it. A hard reset is sometimes the fairest. Love it in my planeswalker deck

[@christianbergeron2519]

First time I noticed that keyword-ception thing, was in the Murders at Markov set, with the suspect mechanic, which gives menace... which means can't be blocked except by 2 or more...and also this creature can't block at all.

[@theaeskey2502]

You also forget that if you use roaming throne and name the creature type of the creature with ward it doubles the ward trigger. This is why I say they need a generic Shadowspear type answer for ward.

[@drkillenger5564]

Roaming Throne and Miirym together is absolutely disgusting, and them both natively having Ward feels like a kick in the pants on top of it.

[@theaeskey2502]

@@drkillenger5564 💯

[@RBGolbat]

Your arguments “they only put Ward on good things but not ok things and that doesn’t make sense” really doesn’t make sense to me, because if something is only “ok” the idea that it’s harder to target wouldn’t magically make it better a lot better. Ward on things that are powerful so they’ll stick around makes sense, but the issue imo is the Ward costs too expensive. If all Wards were reduced by {1} and Ward 1 became Ward Pay 2 life, there would be far less complaints.

[@hoodiegal]

As we all know, Savannah Lions are strictly better than Slippery Bogle, because the lions have one more attack. The Hexproof on the Bogle has never seen any use in any competetive format, while Savannah Lions are a mainstay Modern deck archetype.

[@ospero7681]

37:00 Oh, I feel this. I've got a Thirteenth Doctor/Yasmin Khan deck, and keeping track of all the different things in exile (as well as things that aren't in exile, but that I can still cast/play) is headache-inducing. Not to mention all the abilities that trigger off me casting/playing stuff from outside my hand, or from exile, or...it can get a bit complicated.

[@sunstrid3r44]

I love the dr who decks, they are super fun, but... man, for me it is taxing to play against them in the long run. I have friends that play with the decks and after a while i just cant keep up with the game state anymore bc of walls of text, and dozens of things in exile, and niche interactions, and a lot of counters, and cards with mundane names that dont stick with me so idk if the thing i want to remove is sarah, jessica, bob, denis... i wish i could handle this bc the decks are sweet and my friends are so so happy playing with them, but by the second or third game against dr who decks my focus just gives up :/

[@Dynme]

The discussion of Ward vs Hexproof brought to mind the idea of Chalice checking. Not quite the same thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if it starts becoming more common to just cast into things to see if people remember their triggers.

[@ekolimitsLIVE]

What I worry about is all the “way too easy to do” strategies like “draw a second card per turn” or “when you play a land”… it’s so annoying to play against these decks because they stabilize just by playing magic. It’s not fun or interesting.

[@Controlqueen31]

That's my problem with Simic commanders. A lot of them do the same: draw cards and ramp. And their desings are so lazy that now you got this new 6 mana 6/5 that creates a blue cow, and it feels likes a cheap copy of Aesi + the new Jorael

[@imikoimo6685]

@@Controlqueen31 we had a long talk in my playgroup about the most boring color pairing. All of us agreed immediately that Simic is by far the most boring and uninteresting. I have at least one deck in every color pair, except of simic and damn i don't see building one in the next years to come.

[@breyor1]

@@Controlqueen31Don’t invoke Paul Bunnion and blue in this. It’s a perfectly designed card

[@TeaHauss]

Ward could be more interesting by giving its owner a benefit. Like, white could have ward creatures that trigger draw you a card, blue could let you see your opponents hand, etc

[@eleanorshuttleworth9346]

Hey that's me! Another deep cut include is the "lace" effects such as Purelace, Thoughtlace, Chaoslace etc in commanders who have protection from monocoloured such as niv-mizzet supreme or General Ferrous Rokiric. Especially in Rokiric, one mana veil effect in boros is really underrated, and currently these cards are in zero decks for him.

[@Onirikas]

The logic "Its too powerfull so everyone will want to remove it, so lets add ward to it" it's like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline at it, is shomething i really dont understand from Wizards

[@brianlinden3042]

The problem with Altar of Bone in Atla Palani is that, in general, you're only running 7+ mana creatures, and you don't WANT them in your hand. You want them in your library, where Atla can hatch them for free. It works in some versions of the deck, (like, the ones that want to loop changelings) but most of the time it's kind of a nonbo.

[@dyne313]

I run Elvish Herder and a few smaller creatures, so Altar of Bone is great for getting those out of the deck. That's why it's not a nonbo.

[@dyne313]

Creatures I run that I wouldn't want to hit. Elvish herder. Taurean Mauler. Dockside Extortionist. Mirror Entity. Also, you can fail to find as well.

[@SaltyProductionsHD]

It’s still card selection attached to a sac effect and you can deckbuild with it in mind e.g. only running a single ritual or other ramp effect like Dockside where you’d be happy to hatch it or have it in your hand.

[@dyne313]

@@SaltyProductionsHD I wouldn't be mad a lot of the time hitting Dockside, but I would would much rather have it in hand and spend only 2 and hit something more expensive.

[@MrGeoghagan]

My only issue with ward, as you both mentioned, is the creature with ward being able to be targeted with a spell or ability, then ward triggering to try and counter the spell unless the ward cost is payed. With my playgroup ward basically gets treated as "can't target this thing unless you pay the ward cost" rather than the actual way it works. That being said, I still like it and think it allows higher cmc commanders to actually have a fighting chance to stay on board against all the hyper efficient removal that is available. You all recently did a podcast discussing the average cmc of commanders and how the higher cmc commanders are less common for various reasons, the risk of immediately losing it without getting any value out of it being one of those reasons. Then talking about Ovika and other high cmc commanders that you feel more comfortable playing because there's a higher chance you actually get to do something with the commander before it gets removed. As for ward costs, I much prefer mana being the ward cost over alternate ward costs because paying extra mana is pretty universally considered bad for any deck to do. Paying life, discarding a card, sacrificing a creature, etc. aren't often as challenging to pay nor universally a bad cost to pay for a pretty high number of deck archetypes. IMO, too often those alternate ward costs will be good and/or too easy to pay for by opponents if it isn't a flat mana cost. As for Voja's issue, IMO, the ward isn't really a big deal, it's the lack of meaningful restriction on its ability to be triggered and how strong that ability is.

[@peterstewart7332]

I agree with pretty much everything you said here, and I'm glad I wasn't the only one that immediately jumped to "you can't complain about how high CMC commanders are unplayable due to removal efficiency and also a week later complain about how ward makes some high CMC commanders more expensive to remove". Posted above, but my original comment (reproduced below) was very much along the same lines: "I disagree strongly with your take on Ward. More, I think your take on Ward is really at war with some of the other concerns you raised recently about how the average mana value of commanders has been driven down by the combination of prolific cheap interaction and acceleration of the format in general. What we've seen is that higher CMC commanders (say, anything over 4) are increasingly difficult to make work within the format because players in general are smarter and more proactive about holding their removal for it (because trading Swords to Plowshares, Pongify, Path to Exile, Rapid Hybridization, / your pick of 1 CMC removal for your Kodama of the East Tree is a fantastically efficient trade). Ward as a means of making (for example) Sauron more than just immediate removal bait (by attaching an actual cost) is a positive for the format that encourages both play of more diversified removal (i.e. cards that can get around ward but would see no play due to efficiency) and play of commanders past the 4CMC curve without encouraging the toxic 'can't touch this' play pattern of having to find a way to get shroud or hexproof on it immediately. While there are downsides (the proliferation of boardwipes), those are actual tradeoffs that encourage more diversified deckbuilding in general, vice the hyper efficacy focus that has increasingly homogenized the format."

[@battlebear7214]

I'm refining a deck for Kylox, Visionary Inventor from MKM, and I wouldn't even consider him if he didn't have Ward 2 and haste. A 7 mana commander these days is just too vulnerable.

[@zym6687]

@@battlebear7214Mana Tithe

[@jmanwild87]

@@peterstewart7332 I feel like the issue with ward is when it is put on cards that resist counterplay to ward Voja and Sauron being the biggest example of this because Sauron just innately is resistant to edicts and Voja by virtue of the deck it's in is the same way or Ovika same way as Voja when edicts are some of the big ways to get around ward that are common besides counterspells (limited to blue) and board wipes. can't be countered removal is pretty much limited to abrupt decay void rend and long goodbye. 2 of those don't touch any of the cards I listed. I feel like ward 3 mana is particularly problematic or ward sacrifice/discard this specific thing because then it's very much if they and my opponents have other things on board why not cast a board wipe instead and just wipe the slate clean. and the reason people are bemoaning board wipes is that commander games already go long imagine how much of a slog games might be if the recommended around 3 board wipes went to 6 (the minimum number required to have a 50% chance or greater to have at least one by turn 4) other ward costs at least don't make your hyper efficient removal be outclassed by board wipes meaning we don't get the slog game problem. the issue with a lot of the really good ward threats people complain about is when their ramped into rather than played on curve because their so good. voja can easily hit the board by turn 3 with elf payoff and taking off my entire turn to answer it and it alone because its a must kill threat and i only have swords to plowshares because i'm not running 6+ wipes is miserable in a game where my two opponents who didn't have to deal with it now get to go ahead unimpeded or at least pick oof the rest of the board more efficiently

[@MrGeoghagan]

@@jmanwild87 I completely understand the frustration with long games, but I disagree with the sentiment that ward is creating this issue. While I won't disagree it is contributing, board wipes are always going to be better in commander, at least in theory, than targeted removal because you aren't just using your mana and a card to remove a threat the rest of the table wanted addressed while leaving everyone else's stuff alive, you are also removing many other threats, potentially all of them which can often be worth losing your own stuff if you weren't threatening a win or a big swing in momentum on your turn. Commander is littered with what have been deemed "kill on sight" commanders that begin generating value as soon as they hit the board. Many popular commander are both the enabler and payoff, meaning a single turn untouched could allow a player to catapult ahead, this is not something unique to Voja and while I definitely won't argue that Voja is hard to set up, you at least need to get some creatures on the board before being able to generate value. With that in mind, just removing one threatening commander usually means no removal for the next threatening one. This makes board wipes almost always better than removing one threat via targeted removal. As for the complaint that it feels bad to take a turn off to remove a threat, even in the scenario of Voja coming out on turn 3, you are in a multiplayer game and can discuss with the table as to how best to answer it. Part of commander is the back and forth between players, making deals such as "if I take my turn off to remove Voja, I would like certain assurances". In addition to that, while not a fan of how often content creators and players default to using rule 0 for everything, this is a situation where I would say it is very appropriate to let the table know what kind of experience you are looking for. Commander is at its core a casual format so if Voja or *insert any other ward commander* is something you'd prefer not to play against then hopefully that player is open to alternative decks for those games. Ward is, in my opinion, not this boogeyman that is seems to be made out to be, though I do agree it could be reined in a bit when it comes to tacking it on lower cmc legendaries that really don't warrant having built in protection (e.g. Ghyrson Starn or Raffine Scheming Seer).

[@infinitedaryl2267]

I think ward is fine. What isn’t is overpowered commanders like Voja. They just need to balance cards better for their costs.

[@drkillenger5564]

Ward is fine in a vacuum, but it has no business being on cards like Voja or Miirym, the problem is that they just slap ward on things that dont need it, or that doesnt get a bump in cmc to account for it being on the card.

[@laytonjr6601]

Problem: no sane table will let you untap with Voja if they can prevent it. Solution: give it either Haste or Ward. (the other solution is run protection spells, but why would you want players to think about their deck?)

[@destinyhero]

People don't realize this but the alternative to Voja having ward was giving it haste. At least with ward, 3 other players have a chance to do something about either Voja or the other creatures next to Voja. Giving it haste would have meant someone had to have instant speed removal.

[@treycuret]

​@@destinyheroThere is, of course, the third solution which OP mentioned. Give it neither, and have people actually expend resources protecting their repeatable Craterhoof + Regal Force with vigilance?

[@destinyhero]

@@treycuret Oh yeah, a 5 mana commander that does nothing after you play it that has a giant target on it! Definitely comparable to actually degenerate commanders like Atraxa, any of the eminence ones, Yuriko, Isshin, Korvold, Prosper, etc.

[@elcapitanofthemtn]

@@destinyheroVoja decks slam tons of ways to give Haste into them anyways though so if they have the proper setup you have to have instant speed removal anyways. Imo one of the most egregious design flaws of the card is that on top of everything else it has *Vigilance* of all things so Voja can swing out with impunity and they still have a massive blocker left behind for protection.

[@Dazer87]

​@@destinyheroAt least they can easily be interected with.

[@Pairsath]

my biggest issue with Voja is: why does a 5mana 5/5 with so many keywords #1 potentially replaces itself OR draws more than one card when it enters #2 have a damn win-con stapled onto it's effect #3 and have integrated protection?!? if say. it would be 7mana CMDR... m a y b e the backlash wouldn't have been so hard... Why does that card have to do all of that on it's own?

[@Dragon_Fyre]

It’s an Elf deck… CMC is hardly the issue. Elfball decks cast Craterhoof with ease.

[@byronstier7438]

It does all that and still isn't cEDH

[@Pairsath]

@@byronstier7438 Does the DIMIR CMDR matter, when playing doomsday combo in cEDH either?

[@byronstier7438]

@@Pairsath while Doomsday is a bit rare these days, yes. Normally your commander is something that crack the pile

[@sunstrid3r44]

Yes. If it was 7 mana it would take at least one extra turn for voja to come into play, making it more likely that players would be able to remove it paying the ward cost. Voja on 3 just have hexproof and after it attacks the owner drew at least one card and the board have 3 or 4 +1/+1 counters... and mana dorks, so voja will be played again next turn if removed. Thats why board wipes are a must against this kind of deck (and miiryn too, since the deck is a board bonanza)

[@RedWurm]

As a fairly new player when LCI came out, my god the keywords were not helpful - from the descend/decended similarities, to having to check what 'explore' does as opposed to 'discover' every single time either came up.

[@deejayf69]

I'm probably an outlier, but I thought people didn't run enough boardwipes. I usually see people say you should have 1-2 sweepers, but I think games are too uninteractive with such a low count. Not to say I like this type of card design, but if people finally feel compelled to run more interaction, that's nice.

[@danielaustin2766]

Board wipes are not interaction.

[@andrewfornes5320]

I honestly feel like the population of the Ward mechanic is due to casual commander being a popular format. Many casual players will/want to build commander decks with Pillar-Legends. (Legends like that Jund Manaburn guy, where their whole plan falls the moment the commander is removed.) The more commanders that WoTC prints with needlepoint specific abilities & build arounds, the more they will probably toss Ward onto it. I wish they would go back to printing commanders that did not hold hands and lead you to only 1 or 2 choices. The open ended commanders are some of the more fun ones to brew with.

[@rizzzou]

Altar of bone is not the greatest in a bunch of atla palani decks if they are more on the casual side where all their creatures are fatties so you don’t want them in your hand anyways

[@scottcampbell9515]

A Toad the Wet Sprocket reference? Well done. Well done. 👍🏻

[@JujuInFlames]

I very much feel the “word soup cards” argument, when I play with my friends I am essentially the judge. I keep track of EVERYTHING on the table and remind everyone if they miss a trigger etc, we’re playing casually so it makes sense to help each other. But with how complicated and how much text there is on these cards, it becomes very overwhelming trying to track everything not just for yourself so you know what’s going on, but for everyone else so that they play correctly

[@NateFinch]

I'm surprised when talking about keyword inception (stealing someone else's term) that you didn't mention investigate. Oh, what does investigate do? It makes a clue token. ... Now what the heck is a clue token?? It's like the inverse of the map token.

[@admanios]

The thing about Clue tokens is that they do a specific thing that isn't keyworded, which you are doing anyway, and that's drawing cards. It's pay 2 generic mana to draw a card. Simple, elegant. With Map tokens, you have to know what "explore" is, and you don't necessarily have that information without some kind of reminder. To me, it's a lot like Monarch vs. Initiative. They both make you keep track of an outside-the-game condition, but drawing a card is much easier to understand than the dungeon minigame.

[@casually_lurking]

I ran 3 to 4 nukes minimum whenever possible with a dozen or so interactions; Wizards new favorite four letter word just made me doulble the nukes up. That, or I break out Zurgo (boardwipe tribal) and teach the table the meaning of nuclear proliferation *shrugs*.

[@andrewpeli9019]

Is it time to bust out my play set of "Beseiju, Who Shelters All" to counter warded threats?

[@billjensen51]

I feel like the hate for ward is a little too much. You cannot disagree with me unless you pay (3). Now nobody can disagree with me because for some reason the ward cost will be too high.

[@jmanwild87]

The issue with high ward costs isn't that it's always too high it's that by the time it's not relevant the person playing something like Voja, miiryim or a Tivit has already gotten plenty of value from it or just killed the table. Miiryim has ward 2, and you want to kill it before they cast their first dragon. In order to do that with a generous gift, you have to take off your entire turn 5 something that probably puts you way behind the table incentivizing you to run the most efficient stuff or board wipe if you don't want to play blue and use counterspells. Hell in standard Raffine is problematic because by the time you can answer it if they're set up, you probably are so far behind you lost, and that is just ward 1. Basically, a lot of ward running around only exacerbates the issue that if you want to remove things in commander, you're better served by board wipes when it comes to card advantage. You can't really justify using a lot of spot removal when half the benefits to it (being able to do stuff and play removal) is not there because of the ward costs

[@billjensen51]

@@jmanwild87 I know the reasoning. But still can be targeted. Also did you pay the (3)?

[@jmanwild87]

@billjensen51 we're playing judge's tower baby i have infinite mana

[@danielolsen3514]

​@jmanwild87 A) generous gift is inherently inefficient. Its designed to be catch all at cost of efficiency. You can use StP or even Destpry Evil to kill Myriam for less. B) op spends 6 to cast dragon. You spend 3-5 to kill said dragon. That seems like equivalent exchange. Saying "im not going to kill something because it slows me down." Only works if you are faster than them. Theres 4 players in a pod. Its everyone's responsibility to help keep others in check. If everyone is just trying to goldfish then that's a player problem.

[@alanpigate8776]

To combat ward woc will creep in more removal spells that say "this spell cannot be countered" like they did for MKM limited. If you're esper colors, grab a copy of void rend.

[@MEver316]

Honestly i hope they don't go straight for "can't be countered". Obviously that's where they're going at the moment but I hope they start giving removal spells something like "if this targets a permanent with ward it can't be countered unless the permanent's controller pays the ward cost" which honestly is probably too wordy but it would mean that targeting something like Sauron becomes interesting. If your opponent doesn't sac the legendary permanent then you don't have to and Sauron is removed. If they do then you have to pay that cost too. It makes having a ward cost affect the person who has a warded creature, without changing ward itself. But it also doesn't adversely affect counterspells

[@danielolsen3514]

They absolutely are not "going into more can't be counter cards." Those are in MKM because it was a design decision reflected by disguise being a major part of limited. Its a swlf contained design for limited. OTJ has zero cards that say "can't be countered."

[@brighty-go6nn]

Honestly banning a boardwipe, even a pushed one like farewell sounds like insane people talk to me

[@ForeskinClippings]

Fr, is a great card

[@domotoro3552]

boy do i not like a lot of the design trends in magic lol, excited for this episode!

[@mymarshlands]

Ward is an excellent design decision in that it makes your idk, 6 cmc and up creature not get immediately killed by a 2 mana spell (they have to trade with your 6 cmc for a 4, or 5 mana interaction). The problem is just ballancing what gets ward (they ARE doing it too much) and which kinds of cards need it... I'd say the "just wait for me to untap with this" kinds of creatures are the ones that deserve ward, while creatures with immediate payoffs should rarely get Ward

[@itanocircus2077]

Magic is better when threats are costly and removal is cheap. Consequences make for depth and interesting gameplay.

[@scaredycat3146]

​@@itanocircus2077 that has the side effect of making expensive cards without cost reductions or alternative costs mostly unplayable as shown in any of magics other formats though. (and commander increasingly goes there as well)

[@pytawidmo]

The ward problem, especially with cards like Voja, definitely suffers from having more and more commander-focused designs in non-commander products.

[@inkliizii]

Here's my idea to fix Ward, especially when it's on commanders: It also applies to the card's controller! So it's even closer to Shroud, and more importantly *it has a downside*. That's what Ward is missing, it's generally powerful, but it's just free value, and it's on everything. I think if it also applied to the controller, that would add juuuust enough of a decision for players that it wouldn't feel so bad to play against.

That would be quite the elegant solution. But I doubt R&D will errata the whole mechanic.

[@mfitkin]

I think ward is fine. I’ve rarely had a powerful creature with ward on it where the ward actually protected it. “If I tap out to remove their ward creature, would you not attack me, etc?” The table will often be sympathetic to them since they had to overpay for their pinpoint removal. And even without a political deal, someone can usually just pay the ward cost. And even if someone accidentally targets it, you’d be a real party pooper in a casual game to say their spell gets countered instead of letting them take it back. In my experience playing, ward is practically flavor text unless it’s Sauron or Saruman, and even those can be paid pretty regularly by most decks if necessary.

[@seandun7083]

I mean, it's often hard to tell when ward is protecting a creature as if you can't pay then you just don't cast the spell.

[@51gunner]

Depends if you've got ways to back up the Ward with other protection. For example, I've got a Jin-Gitaxias deck - the version that flips into a saga, and has Ward 2. It's WAY easier for me to activate his saga side without having him removed in response - basically any instant-speed effect is going to cast 3, most are going to cast 4, and even truly premium stuff like Deadly Rollick will cost 2. Because it's a mono-blue deck I can usually activate that ability AND hold up a counterspell, and so Ward 2 makes it very expensive to try twice. I can activate the ability with confidence that I won't get Jin removed in response. Is that fair? Who's to say?

[@izaiahsundquist6877]

I'm not a fan of most legendaries feeling like they are on rails or handholding new players. An example is Saint Traft and Rem Karolus. I think the first part of text in this card is incredibly interesting and would make for a fascinating commander but then they threw in the second line that leads people to turning it into a convoke commander.

[@Dragon_Fyre]

It was released in a convoke deck as the commander and you don’t like that people are playing it as a convoke commander ???

[@izaiahsundquist6877]

@@Dragon_Fyre Not what I said. What I said is that I think it has a very unique ability and that it's designed in such a way to be hand holding or on rails. It has one very interesting ability and then a second one that synergizes with the first and leads it in a specific direction. Once again, very much on rails or handholding. Looking at the card tells you how to build the deck. Some additional examples could be Syr Konrad, the Grim which directs players into building a mill deck; Magda, Brazen Outlaw who's deck building recipe is basically built for you on the card - Dwarves, treasures, and dragons; or Inti, Seneschal of the Sun which has two very interesting abilities that also happen to synergize with one another.

[@logancrowther1346]

My playgroup did a though experiment. 5 year old or older commanders and give them "Ward X where X is half this spells mana value rounded down" to see how strong commanders from the past would be if made today. It convinced me that ward is a problem, and should be used sparingly. Biggest issue was Omnath Locus of Rage.

[@anaskaadan5845]

The reason we weren't complaining about Hexproof so much is that they weren't putting the keyword on win conditions. They were usually really careful with Hexproof and for good reason. However, for ward, they're just randomly slapping it on cards now and on creatures that can win games all on their own, which is why everyone's complaining.

[@PaulSzkibik]

in the MtG Goldfish podcast, I think it was Crim who suggested that edict effects (force opponent to sacrifice) have become stronger relative to targeted removal.They still obviously have the issue that sometimes you don't get to kill the actual thing you wanted to get rid of but ward being much more prevalent know brings them closer in value to targeted removal. Obviously ignore board wipes here but they have their own issues (mana intensive, often global. often very expensive if onesided and also very rare etc.)

[@dustyzafu]

At a table that regularly sees Miirym and Ovika, especially with Roaming Throne, free counterspells, etc., I've had to adopt removal by dictate (Dictate of Erebos, Plaguecrafter, Soul Shatter, ...) under Malik, Grim Manipulator, and it's still not enough. I can't ask folks to abandon their favorite decks, but it's repeatedly caused me to consider quitting.

[@Luke-wt2ph]

When I saw the commit a crime keyword that focuses on targeting some of the ward generosity cards makes sense when you look at the 3 to 5 magic set pod that obviously the designers build to communicate to one another.

[@magicyami]

I love the concept of the sheilob effect so much that id love it if they printed those halves individually at half the cost of the op commander. I think they realize it too. Look at ulalek and its same copy effect in a card that can go into every other color combination because its a colorless artifact rather than a 5 color combo commander.

[@canadianguy1578]

Maybe its time to put Wash Away in all my control decks for all the commanders with ward.

[@sunstrid3r44]

I think a good short term solution for ward is removal that dont let the target creature trigger in response (like a weird version of split second, but just for triggers and for the targeted object)?

[@elementalfallout6774]

Ward is an amazing keyword/ability. The issue is what they assign as the ward cost on some creatures. Sauron, the Dark Lord’s ward cost is insane. It’s already a good card and while it is understandable to put ward on so it so it doesn’t catch hands immediately, but that ward cost is too much.

[@jaceg810]

as someone brewing a lurrus oops all small aristocrats deck, The removal package is mostly either cute/stapes: sac the biggest, swords, switch peoples most expensive thing, sac the biggest. Or straight up whipes that only hit big things, battle of bywater, slaughter the strong and the 3-5 other friends with similar whipe effects, as they hit most problematic things, and should deal minimal damage to my board. Running classic removal just is not worth it, even if I get to recycle it with lurrus because it is an artifact that sacs itself

[@wafflehaxxx]

If Jodah, Archmage Eternal had been printed today, it would have Ward 2. Imagine.

[@MikhailHudon_ZerithFarron]

putting on my ol' game designer hat in the shower, I wonder if there's design space for a 3-4CMC removal spell that ignores Ward...? It feels like Ward was made to combat specifically 1-2 CMC removal by making it feel like 2-5 CMC. The problem I feel is it making more budget or synergistic removal at the 3-5 CMC spot unplayable. Almost as if this was specifically targeted (heh) at budget players.

[@davidhansen5067]

Because Ward counters the targeting spell or ability, things like Void Rend and Abrupt Decay can get around Ward.

[@darrenwastestime]

We will definitely be seeing more targeted removal that can't be countered in the future.

[@scaredycat3146]

​@@darrenwastestime which has the unfortunate side effect of making removal less interactible as well sadly.

[@ComfyDents]

As a disciple of Richard (mtg goldfish) I play little spot removal anyway and use wraths and deterrence instead. It is still silly to make every strong timmy creature ward 2+. It feels like adding "can't be countered" to every relevant spell.

[@andrueurbane7361]

With all the Ward around, playing Chimil the Inner Sun feels great.

[@EwMatias]

Something easily dying to removal absolutely trumps whatever good effect it might have (if it's not a massive ETB). This is a well known dynamic at this point. That's why powerful cards actually need some built in protection or they are unplayable. Ward is a pretty ingenious way of doing it.

[@dyne313]

Altar of Bone is actually great for more than just the obvious free sacrifice and tutor. I run a few smaller creatures like Elvish Herder that I'd rather not polymorph into, so it lets you get those so you're less likely to hit those with the egg deaths.

[@Lavorre]

This while episode really highlights my problems with modern magic, and its why I decided to build a low power cube. Its a 2 player cube meant for newer players (so I can teach more of my friends), and no cards have more then 2 lines of text! (the best rate on a creature is colossal dreadmaw)

[@g_grunz]

I agree with some of the other comments about ward on higher cmc card, it makes them a bit safer to play. It feels really bad to spend 7 mana to play a Gisela only for it to be immediately removed for 1 for swords or even 2 for a counter. Ill take it a step futher and say that should be a restriction - anything under 5-6 cmc shouldnt have ward, just because of what you all said about curve. On turn 2-4, players more likely wont have the mana available, whereas 5+ most have their ramp ramping so it makes it more of a choice - keep the 2 or 3 extra for my own stuff, or use the it to respond to the scary thing with ward. Ward is almost a response to ramp in game, or at least can be used that way. Ward also doesnt exist in a vacuum and it's increase runs parallel to the increase in ramp, especially treasure generators. Design wise, It almost seems to be a RESPONSE to the increase in treasures

[@MysteriousSoulreaper]

Does Lore and flavor actually prevent cards from being more consistent? Part of the reason we have Cloak and Manifest is because "manifest" does not meet the theme of Karlov Manor. The places where we see keywords used more appropriately, such as LoTR's Scene Boxes are the ones less bounded by flavored-mechanics.

[@itanocircus2077]

My favorite trend is seeing R&D try to force Commander decks to play fair only for those pieces to be abused by the decks they were meant to keep in check. Dockside, Notion Thief, Opposition Agent, Dauthi Voidwalker, Hullbreacher, Narset (PoV), Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, Orcish Bowmasters, Ward.

[@captaindaddd6055]

as someone who enjoys yugioh, whenever i hear any content creator complain about how much card text there is, i just sigh to myself. it's really not that bad, honestly

[@crawdaddy2004]

0:26 I snorted when you referenced Toad the Wet Sprocket, similar to what Eric Idol did the first time he heard their name on the radio. 😂

[@GeckoThePoet]

Sauron’s ward being sac a legendary permanent is flavor for the destruction of the one ring to destroy Sauron. Also, in the set, the ring bearer mechanic can turn any chump into a legendary permanent

[@alexabney7913]

I thinkThere’s a few removal spells is the same set as voja that can’t be countered lol

[@bouncingbeebles]

The Ward on Sauron is a flavour thing. In the books, the first time the allies defeated Sauron, it took Elendil's (would have been a legendary creature) sacrifice to allow Isildur to cut the ring off and banish Sauron back to the command zone. The second time when he was defeated for good, Frodo had to sacrifice the One Ring (a legendary artifact) in order to accomplish this. Just giving Sauron Hexproof wouldn't have told this story.

[@jmanwild87]

The problem with that ward is that no one really wants to swallow that price if they don't absolutely have to. And might not even be physically able to pay for it. Basically, giving him hexproof anyway doesn't help that sauron also has resistance from most edict effects

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Value engines like Pantlaza and The First Sliver, and all these wards and hexproofs is why I am reassessing mass removal in all my decks. Do I play Beast Within, or do I play Sunfall? Sunfall, every time.

[@VincentWolfeye]

I agree with most of what's being dicussed. The only thing I don't have any problem with is commons and uncommons having more and better choices. The more flexibility we have in the commons the mord accessible the game is. No one wants to run a bad common when there is a good rare. But if the commons does more of what rare cards used to do, then the game is more accessible from a financial standpoint. Just want to highlight that when talking about complexity creep. Not all complexity is bad when it's prolifirated through card design.

[@Tuss36]

I think part of the text problem is due to wanting things to work in a specific way. It's not just "Whenever you attack, put a +1/+1 counter on each attacking creature you control." it's "Whenever you attack with one or more modified creatures, put a +1/+1 counter on each attacking modified creature you control." Which on its face isn't that bad in practice, it's a hoop that rewards you for jumping through it by making sure your modified creatures stay modified, but also it doubled the amount of characters used in order to accomplish that, despite the ability not being that complicated.

[@Schwa2182]

I actually like ward. There is so much cheap and efficient removal in commander now - it’s hard to get engines going and I appreciate this allows pieces to stay on the board.

[@JessBritvec]

I think what might be reasonable is to make ward effect the mana cost of the card its on. I'm not against design taking us to a place where we have to find different answers for things, because I think interaction is a category that can become pretty stale without it, but I think the balance of being able to gain a mana advantage by interacting with one powerful and more expensive thing should still be there. That way ward just buys you time until your opponents have enough mana to remove it and still progress their game plan at the same time, but they can still create the ward situation we have now by not progressing their game plan to get rid of the warded creature and I think that's fair. I think what is the most egregious about Voja is that it gives you a mana advantage with ward on top of card advantage and time advantage with its last ability to pay off for having elves and wolves. Yes, having two different creature types to get the payoff makes it less powerful, but giving you an advantaged on three fronts is not good design. On the other hand I think something like Sauron, the Dark Lord is better design, if you are looking at it from the standpoint of being a finisher for a control deck. Those types of creatures should be hard to remove, but everyone has at least one legendary creature, so you have an interesting choice to make if you want to interact. The ward and amass abilities gain advantage on the same front (card advantage), the last two abilities require you to have several combat steps or to spend cards yourself to speed up your clock, so I think this is a great design for a control deck to finish the game. There is an inevitability to it that still has a lot of push and pull with your opponents.

[@antarath517]

My issue with ward is that must-kill cards are costing equal to/more to remove than to play. That's a big design issue. It's a similar issue to what modern has, where interaction is worse than the cards it has to be used on.

[@JuQmadrid]

If you give ward to a "just ok creature" to make it better, it actually doesn't do much because it won't be targeted that often

[@boingy2828]

Honestly, with my playgroup, ward isn't the most common, but even so I still try to rotate removal in my decks to fit the needs of 'what if'. Also, player removal gets around ward

[@bladetb3934]

I just tried katana sleeves today. They are nuts. The shuffle feel is so good. It feels like I'm mushing butter into butter. Can't believe I haven't heard anyone talk about that

[@brianpendleton2674]

So ward is great then? Miirym and Voja demand removal which is exactly why they have ward. That is a good design move since both are a solid mana investment to cast. Ward as a "gotcha" moment will make people learn to check the board before targeting and thus learn more. It is so easy to ask what a card says or ask to read a card before targeting. Maybe this helps balance overuse of swords and path?

[@Grooveworthy]

Can we talk about the recent mechanics that all require some kind of external minigame? Im talking about attractions, the ring tempts you, dungeons, i took a break from magix during the pandemic, and when i came back, all these super dense mechanics came up and it infuriates me

[@stormtrooperjeepjk]

More interaction cards that can't be countered helps the ward issue..... Destroy x creature, spell can't be countered..... Done, no board wipe

[@treycuret]

That is just creating a solution to a problem they created.

[@sunstrid3r44]

​@@treycuretand creating a problem for later, because if we had a lot of good generic uncounterable removal... i dont even want to think about that

[@elementalfallout6774]

Yes and no. If your deck does not rely on a creature board state then yes by all means wipe away. However, there are two points to this problem. First, if you do have a board, you would not trade your advantage for one player’s creature in most cases. Second, for this reason the only decks that are going to run more board wipes are decks that don’t rely on creatures and already rely on board wipes over target creature removal anyway. Also, the only thing they have to fix is change the rules on ward so that the ward cost is an in addition to cast this spell targeting… Which is a concept already established in the game. Also, checking the ward cost on already overpowered creatures.

[@jeffnosdivad3080]

Toad the wet sprocket. Christ, there's one I haven't heard in a minute.

[@peggle09]

In arena it does ask if you are sure. I also feel like ward helps big mana powerful cards actually stay around long enough to matter to the player that played it. It feels real bad to cast a high cost commander only to have it answered by a one mana spell before any benefit is had. All the commanders you mentioned have not been an issue in my 12 player play group at all. It makes my group think about the interaction they are playing and better threat recognition.

[@CHAREDot9]

I had to double lightning helix myself to kill a vein ripper last night. Ward is coming for more than just your spells and abilities, it wants your life

[@metricarea7546]

I don't like that Voja has a Ward of 3, I think 1 or 2 would have been enough. But I think the card does need it because it seems like the deck doesnt do much without him. It's just Elfball without any juice (I played against it twice and yes, Voja is a pain). I felt the same way about Ghyrson Starn who I played for a while. He has Ward 2 and without him, the deck was just trash. Miirym on the other hand... yeah no.

[@seandun7083]

If your deck doesn't do anything without your commander, that's more a problem with your deck building. There are plenty of other card draw engines and overrun effects you can run in case Voja is removed and there are plenty of ways to protect it or give it haste had it not been given ward.

[@sunstrid3r44]

Elfball decks are a thing since time immemorial with overrun and craterhoof effects, voja is just a super ultra efficient overrun in the CZ that draws cards and open the deck for white and red. HYPER STRONG, dont get me wrong, but if a elf player cant do anything with a board full of elves without the commander, then i think there is something wrong with the deck (or just really bad luck draws)

[@midnalight6419]

I LOVE my opponents that I have said when I cast Tivit or Voja "6/6 flier with Ward 3" And then they swords it and I go "Ward 3 trigger" Reading the card explains the card. Yeah, Voja is incredibly powerful, but what he does is rather unique still. So, you can play just naya elf ball because he is craterhoof behemoth literally on a 5 mana creature. However, my voja deck is designed to be a midrange monster with a few value wolves, and non-tribe members to play a more interactive style of game. It's still an incredibly powerful deck, but the commander's deisgn allows for more than say, marwyn does. He can be a go wide, tall, or medium strategy, a different mix of tribes. I have a distaste for decks that build themselves. Thankfully, Voja doesn't do that. There are enough elves that you don't have to go down a specific route with them. Sure you ramp into a T3 Voja, but beyond that the things you do can vary wildly. With Sauron though, the ward is decently achievable and has flavor to it. The card is not that good. It's a difficult to interact with Taurean mauler. That's really not great. for 6 mana and dies to boardwipes, I think ward sac a creature is just fine.

[@justinvandergriff]

nice vid! my play group has been having these same feelings with voja and sauron being especially annoying to deal with.

[@zwolf4118]

I'm surprised that you guys did not talk about poisonous and toxic being the exact same mechanic just with different names

[@tomfisher6422]

How many cards will allow you to counter or suppress triggered abilities? That would answer Ward as well.

[@mikedenn6500]

One thing in wards favor is that it slows games down. Commander players have been concerned that games end too quickly and high cmc cards are getting less playable. I think ward ia useful here and extending the game a bit actually keeps more things useable.

[@cread13]

The reason we are seeing ward so much even on already strong cards is because in the past they had to be carefull with stuff like shroud, hecproof, indestructible. With what they placed it on but with ward just being a extra tax on a card its easyer to stick it on basicly anything since its not hard protection like the other ones since it has a built in way to get around it. Which has led to them being a ittle to liberal with its use in card design instead of keeping the same mentality they had before.

[@timothymiles2851]

The ‘can’t be countered’ clause is also something that can be built into a little bit in some decks. Seeming ward ‘counters’ the spell. Niche and not always available but a good way they can re-balance it.

[@timothymiles2851]

Wondering if putting a type of Ward on instants and sorceries would balance it back 😂

[@Strength10hurts]

@danaroach I like long games, after an hour and someone plays a board wipe if its stopping a player from making a winning move I love it. However I agree that with that ward problem you mention. If that causes more board wipes it sucks!

[@nickpalframan]

Making a second post as its not quite as related to the first. Magic has a weird cyclical nature with the balance of removal and protection. Creatures die too much? Give them regen. Too much regen? Make spells that dont allow regen. Too many spells counter regen? Make indestructible. Too much inndestructible? Exile it. I feel we are hitting a point of exile saturation, especially in formats like commander, where I almost dont want to play a destruction spell. More so again because of all the recursion available. Maro has said they dont want people pulling from exile (waves at Karn). I think thats the right choice. But then it leaves the question how to protect against exile? We are seing flicker and phase effects as one option. And the other is to use ward to make it more costly to remove. (Which as identified was a reaction to people not liking shroud and hexproof)

[@SendReinforcements]

I feel like nobody was really complaining about Ward until Voja. I think the problem is just that Voja is too good, and it having Ward is egregious. I have an Ovika, Enigma Goliath deck and it’s the one I’ve probably played the most. It’s basically izzet mana rocks and x spells, so nothing too blatantly powerful, but I’ve never heard anyone complain about the Ward. Even with all the mana rocks I’m typically the last one to cast my commander because of how expensive they are, and if it could be removed for 1 mana the moment it hits the field I wouldn’t even build the deck. That or it would just have to include a TON of counterspells to protect it, and I’d have to have enough mana to cast Ovika and have enough for the counterspell which would make the deck even slower than it already is.

[@dullestpenguin4151]

I'm actually one of the few people who are in support of ward. If I take up my entire midgame turn to deploy a single threat, I don't want it removed for 1cmc. Ward makes non-etb creatures playable.

[@StarofWisdom]

What if the design philosophy was that legendary creatures couldn’t get ward? Ward in the 99 seems a lot less problematic than having it on something that’s easy to cast over and over.

[@travis_approved]

19:20 Dana got roasted lol