Designated Pilot Examiner Discussion

Join Doug Stewart, the Society of Flight Educators (SAFE) executive director emeritus and a Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE), along with Mike Garrison and Bill Ziesenitz, two DPE's and SAFE members, as they tackle the problem of CFI Initial exam failures, and other issues they encounter during checkrides.
Flying Magazine Article: www.flyingmag....

[@curtwallis7083]

Awesome information and discussion. At 60 years old, I just earned my private pilots license. I want to be the best pilot I can be. I’m too old to go to work for the airlines, but do want to work my way to being a CFII. When I get there, I want to be the best instructor I can possibly be.

[@Windtee]

Listen to their tone; it's on point! Awesome insight! We need to produce competent instructors bent on cultivating and maintaining educational-integrity where safety and the SUCCESS of the flight-student is priority number one!

[@johnmcguire66]

To the subject of finding instructors who are there to teach to a high standard and not just get hours, that's a bit of a tricky topic. The irony in all of the safety culture the FAA says they are trying to build is in the fact that a low time pilot say coming out of a 141 school, can't land a job doing really anything but instruction. There are some exceptions I realize. I've actually known a few people who got SIC tickets and worked their way up to the hours they needed that way. And there are survey jobs sometimes you can get on with sub 1000 hours. But largely instruction will be their only path to build hours. The hour requirements to get on with airlines or charter companies or whatever other corporate gigs creates this environment. Think of this nonsense. You can't fly right seat in an airline with an experienced captain when you're fresh out of flight school and knowledge and safety are at their prime because you've just completed your ratings, but you can teach other new students yourself at just over maybe 300 hours. The way to weed out time builders vs. actual instructors would be allow lower hours to get into the airlines and those hanging behind to teach would be doing it because they want to. In my opinion, this is largely an FAA failing. It's a flaw in the system frankly. The irony to that whole rule the feds implemented for airline hours, 1500, was that the crash that it came from the Colgan Air crash, both pilots had well over that. It's more of the laws of unintended consequences coming up here. Another phrase I hate hearing is "there is a shortage of pilots" no, there is a shortage of "hire-able" pilots. Plenty of kids coming out of 141 schools every year, but they can't land gigs because of these rules.

[@Sarge226]

Hour minimums for aviation jobs are definitely a problem. But the cost of training and the typical pay of a flight instructor is why you never find anyone that wants to stick around. You might spend anywhere’s from $50k to $100k nowadays on your certs, but instructing usually only pays $25k or so a year. It’s barely livable, especially if you had to get loans for your flight training. So as soon as an instructor can find a higher salary or more hours, they’ll jump ship. In order to entice people with more experience to instruct, you have to pay them commensurate with their ability. But if you paid the average instructor $150 an hour, no one would be able to afford flight training. The costs would basically double. Only way around this is radical aviation reform. A new Piper Archer has no business costing more than a Lamborghini. GA is being smothered to death by liability insurance and red tape. The market for airplanes and the costs that surround them would have to be reworked completely. Until that happens, there simply isn’t any room for higher instructor wages; meaning there won’t be very many pilots working as instructors that aren’t there just to build time. The FAA has backed itself into a corner where the profession of aviation is being taught almost exclusively by amateurs.

[@johnmcguire66]

@@Sarge226 no disagreement there either.

[@davidsandell7833]

I agree, Most of my instructors were instructing only because they wanted to build hours.

[@SAFEPilots]

This is a harmful trend in the modern pilot market; everyone trying to get to the airlines.

[@LakeAllfredLuigi]

Awesome masters in the game. Respect

[@tchintsanya2010]

I agree @jonathan

[@wflyer7985]

For once KZbin recommended a video I could really use

[@photopete16]

Great insight from these pros.

[@SkyBaum]

Yay! Just joined SAFE today 😃 #SkyBaum

[@jefar53]

Seem like really cool guys

[@eaa5828]

At 2:09 the applicant was right. The descending blade airspeed increases as the pitch angle or angle of attack increases. Think of a tilt rotor transitioning from hover to full forward and then hover. A fixed pitch propeller airplane experiences the same thing only to a lesser degree. Radio control models may be a better example when they pull into a hover during "3D," competitions. The effect of pitch change makes the descending blade advance and the ascending blade retreat. Peter Garrison wrote a brilliant article on this a few years back. This increases the left "turning," effect.

[@nismology]

Words matter. Saying the descending blade is going any faster than the ascending blade is technically incorrect. A student pilot (learner) may be confused into thinking that the blade velocity actually changes somehow. At the very least, it’s an incomplete answer if relative wind is not also mentioned. For an initial CFI practical exam you have to demonstrate instructional knowledge of the various topics in the PTS which includes, but is not limited to, technical accuracy. An instructor has no business using ambiguous, confused language when describing the principles of flight.

[@shyammohabir8283]

The applicant was WRONG! The descending blade DOES NOT go any faster than the ascending blade!

[@dennisnbrown]

EYEBROWS!

[@zimmerking2323]

How about the problems with you DPEs? $800 for a Private Pilot checkride - can you please justify that? Thank you.

[@zaystillclimbing]

They don’t get paid by the government so they sort of have to charge pretty steep especially if they’re traveling for the checkride

[@Sarge226]

@@zaystillclimbing $800 is more than I make in a week of instructing.

[@likes-yv3lj]

What’s the app called

[@SAFEPilots]

Get the "SAFE Toolkit" on iOS or Android markets...FREE!

[@keeganstarkey3528]

Do people actually use Sheppard Air to study for the orals? I encourage using it for the written test, as that is completely rote knowledge anyway, but seriously the oral? That's just not good enough

[@YouNumba1]

As DPEs we do not always know the method of preparation unless we can debrief fully with CFI and applicant. We clearly see some inadequate preparation though. Initial CFI is tough because we are looking for "instructional knowledge" (full and complete presentation). Unlike all previous "orals" DPE is >not< going to drag the information out of the applicant, they should be ready to present it fully and cogently (prove they are a qualified CFI!)

[@kylegarcia4141]

I just used the airplane flying handbook, the ACS, and some blue book I had gotten a while ago to pass my checkride and oral. Risk management was the one area could’ve done way better in. My CFI never really covered it much. Took me a second to figure out the questions asked but all I care ab is that I have the license now.

[@keeganstarkey3528]

Kyle Garcia yeah that’s what I recommend people use as well, I think the blue book you are talking about is the private pilot oral exam guide, which I love using for oral prep. It’s extremely comprehensive and a great guide for students. Risk management is rather important so I’m sorry to hear your instructor didn’t cover that more in depth!

[@ItsAllAboutGuitar]

I passed all three of my checkrides and knew all of the silly stuff you're complaining about. From the side of having to learn this stuff from FAA documents, they're pretty pathetic. No one wants to read bloviated and verbose documents. How about communicating all of the necessary information as concisely as possible? Riddles with unnecessary levels of indirection are no way to communicate info. There are questions that no examiner, no CFI or myself agree on the answer to. Going through and passing a checkride is a hazing and not a good way to do things.

[@Safair1306]

Bill is not up to date in terms of what cased the lion air 737max accident. These guy are quite domestic American.