Destiny 2 Lore - IT EXISTS! The Winnower is REAL! The Witness' Truth & Creation in Darkness!

[@djdarkskinss6415]

Did savathun says “ the Witness is not fully darkness but something that wears it like a cloak, it gives darkness a terrible shape”

[@lukatosic09]

Yes, she did

[@alexfromproduce1521]

Like how we wear the light

[@Tiamat013]

Yes indeed.

[@erikdefibaugh9348]

GREAT CATCH SHE DID!!

[@blackbelt352-dd]

Even before altar of insight in Witch Queen, she pointed out there is a distinction between the Darkness and the Whispers in the Darkness during Pressage.

[@technobishop]

Two things that stood out to me in the campaign: 1. Our ghost says he hasn't experienced "something of this magnitude" (referencing the full chromatic spectrum we now have: light harmonious with darkness) since he was created. (See Ghost's dialog right after we first meet Cayde) 2. The dissenter in Zavala's vision says that the Witness lies, and they ran from the Gardener. For me this suggests that the Precursors fled from the Traveler fearing the chaos that was developing. They sought a means to bring order and purpose, and found the Veil. The Winnower gifted them the powers of Darkness, seeing both a kindred race that sought the order he does, and a means to draw closer to the end of the game as it has always been before. Perhaps the Winnower told them to return for the Gardener, maybe the Precursors figured it out themselves, but either way they bring the Veil back in an attempt to forcefully take the powers of light and enact their final shape on the universe. The Traveler catches on to what they're doing and flees to prevent this, because this would stop its goal: thwarting gridlock and reaching a different end to the game. I think the Winnower realizes that the Witness is no longer the tool it thought it was, as a frozen universe also stops its goal: the end of the game as it always has been before. Eventually, something changes and the Traveler chooses to make a stand with humanity. I don't think this is because we're something special, but rather because the Winnower and the Gardener have reached an agreement: create ghosts to seek out beings worthy of wielding light and dark to stop the Witness and prevent the game from stalemating. This, or something similar, is the only reason I can think of for Ghost recalling the feeling of Prismatic. Darkness provided the pattern for ghosts, and Light gave them form. Maybe he's just referencing a "similar" type of power, but then why would he mention the spectrum and being harmonious with darkness?

[@jankie3601]

Yes! I believe you're right! New datamine presume from the winnower himself! Seems to be talking down on the action of the witness. And even on unveiled textbook, it describes the acts of the withness as "abomination." We just didn't know at that time.

[@Tao_Tology]

"Eventually something changes......" Going by in-game lore, the Traveller was prevented from abandoning earth.

[@Coolbone1]

@@Tao_Tology didn't Clovis create the Warmind to prevent the Traveler from running away? If I remember correctly, the Traveler tried to escape during the Collapse, but Rasputin stopped it

[@supergatorhator]

@@Coolbone1 This was never confirmed and ended up being retconned in season of the seraph. The protocol to shoot the traveler down if it tried to run existed, but was never actually used. I kind of feel like it was really heavily implied early on in the lore, and explains the level of damage we see on the bottom of the Traveler, but I think Bungie ended up deciding that they wanted the Traveler to stay because it wanted to because humanity was just "so special". I guess fuck the Eliksni and other species the Traveler didn't think were "special" enough to save?

[@Tao_Tology]

@@supergatorhator It was quite literally said and confirmed _in the game_ .

[@RubysWrath]

I think it's a little more nuanced than the winnower making the witness. I think that the game isn't played by the gods themselves. But instead played by the pieces. I think the game has already begun. Only the universe born in the combat between them is the board. The traveler and veil are Tools that profess nothing. The game is to see if the universe will turn into a final shape or if it will become an endless sprawl of possibility. The witness called itself the first knife because it sees itself as the first to shape the world into the final shape. Anyone who tries to make the final shape would be a "knife" in the hand of the winnower. But as the witness itself said. He wasn't actually ordered by anything. Nobody was swinging that knife. The game is that anyone can be the knife. And anyone can tend the garden. Anyone can choose to pursue anything. And the travelers job is keeping the universe filled with possibility and uplifting the universe to give everything a chance to grow. The witness saw the veil and the traveler and saw a purpose it made for itself. It saw a key and a hole and was the first to want to merge them and pursue a purpose it made for itself. And the traveler had no desire to allow the universe to enter stillness so it fled. It's odd. But I think the gardener and winnower if they do exist they exist as watchers. They play the game by giving the tools to us. But they don't guide us. After all the greatest proof of victory isn't by forcing it. It's by letting the game play out and seeing what the universe chooses for itself. The witness with no orders or guidance needed almost proved the winnower right. And we as the champions of the gardener proved it right. Possibility won over stillness. But the witness is only the first to try. The vex are just as much a threat. And they desire the same order and final shape. In other universes they always win without paracausual power to stop them. It's up to us and all of existence to prove that there is no need for a final shape.

[@bradfordbiggles8351]

But we’re the final shape

[@jimijenkins2548]

Remember the Winnower's description of the game. "The only permitted move is the initial arrangement of the board." The pieces are the game, and the pieces play the game.

[@ezramoen1463]

I agree with your explanation, I think that the winnower and the gardener are principles of existence and that they together move the scale of time throughout all possible multiverses. Also, hypothetically if we as guardians were able to destroy the winnower or at least "pause" the game, that to me is almost the same goal as the witness (eliminate entropy and prevent any change from occurring forever), only difference is that the witness doesn't possess the ability to restart the game if it ends. I imagine that by removing one of the 2 entities of creation (Winnower, Gardener), the game cannot continue, and thus sealing whatever eternity the "knife" desires (Final Shape). Another concept to keep in my mind, is that the destiny universe exists because the Winnower and Gardener don't agree and thus they "battle/create" endlessly so that there isn't a solidified state of existence. The true final shape is when the game ends, and nothing created by either the Gardner or Winnower can persist.

[@internisus]

On the contrary, both exist within the game but behave differently. The Traveler acts but does not direct, while the Veil influences but cannot act.

[@Nina-ld7wz]

To go off your point of "anyone can be the knife", I know it has long been seen as just being a 4th wall break, but I forever think of that Week 5 Invite of The Nine "Strength" where I have seen interpretation that the "game" when the Emissary says " think bigger, he/she can leave this game" is talking about the Guardian not necessarily being bound to the Winnower v Gardener game.

[@ryancarrell3186]

I like how you can see Byf literally stop in his tracks in the gameplay when he hears the word "Winnower" lol

[@supergatorhator]

He really, REALLY wants the Winnower to be real. I think he's overlooking a lot of pretty blatant problems with this interpretation because of that, unfortunately. 1) We know the full story of the Witness' origins. It was not created before the beginning of time. The first knife described in Unveiling was. 2) The Unveiling lore book where the Winnower is described came from the Witness. The Witness mentioning the Winnower twice does not confirm the existence of the Winnower. 3) Asha makes it clear that the Winnower was something the Witness created/mythologized to find purpose. Probably more accurate to say that the Witness invented the Winnower as a way to describe the purpose it gave itself. 4) The memories of the Traveler that we find, along with the fragments we discover around the Pale Heart and in Micah-10's missions (particularly the lore in Cyst missions), directly contradict a lot of the mythology that Witness describes in Unveiling. All of this is to say, the Winnower and Gardener are metaphors the Witness created to describe the purpose it gave itself to chase the Traveler. They don't actually exist, but are a description of how the Witness sees the universe and the Traveler and Veil's place in it, and the reason it hates the Traveler for uplifting species without giving them purpose. It has come to view that uplifting without purpose as creating suffering, and describes it as "changing the rules" of the universe. It views the final shape as the end of that suffering, and that the final shape is what would happen if the Traveler hadn't interfered by abandoning them rather than letting them use it to reshape everything.

[@MusicWarrior147]

@@supergatorhator Stop coping. Winnower is real, cry about it.

[@supergatorhator]

@@MusicWarrior147 Please, feel free to point out where I'm wrong. Assuming you actually are basing your opinion on anything other than feels, that should be easy, right? Or are you someone who just responds with "cope" and "cry more" every time someone says something you don't want to hear?

[@legioning]

@@supergatorhator but....the windower......

[@JROCThaGreat]

1. Is built around the concept of time. Issue is something that has existed forever does not use or value time the same as we do. 3. Something eons old and a billion times more intelligent is so simple that it need to make up an imaginary daddy to give it purpose. These 2 alone poke holes in your entire argument.

[@dd-v]

top 10 hardest destiny lines ngl "but the first knife clutched in its hand" ... "they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve" DANG

[@wastingtime1441]

This dlc had so many bangers. Eris saying “fear is like a knife, we can use it to hurt others, or ourselves, or we can choose to sheathe it”

[@orendamusic7577]

Kinda a wack line since a knife literally has to have someone directly controlling it to carve anything

[@dd-v]

@@orendamusic7577 kinda true but shows how twisted the witness boy had it

[@steel5602]

my fav is and will always be “You have no purpose, because you fear to seek one..and that fear is your failure.”

[@PiperWheelz]

@@orendamusic7577the witness was the one controlling it. It was saying that the winnower can’t tell what shape that the witness can carve

[@JoeyBorgadonuts]

Byf has a huge dog!

[@italifacts1461]

_Close enough._

[@adamdrawhorn4861]

@@italifacts1461 listen, i feel very differently about putting my dog in my girlfriend...

[@italifacts1461]

@@adamdrawhorn4861 _The Destiny universe is vast, indeed. Eyes up Guardian._

[@Brad-ut1ro]

@@adamdrawhorn4861umm… I’m sorry, WHAT?? lol

[@V___X]

Byf! you got that ham cannon brother

[@byronhague277]

Byf, I've been with you for so long. I believe since 2016 or 2017 is when I first subbed but I have watched your Destiny vids from all the way to your early days. I started D1 in 2014 when I was 10 and now I'm 20, no longer playing Destiny but I catch myself coming back to you to hear you talk about the lore. Now that it's finally over I can rest. I no longer need to know what's happening. This is my endgame. Byf you have given me so much of my childhood because of your videos. Thank you.

[@TheCarrionKing27]

To sum up the Winnower, he looked at the Gardeners new rules and thought, "Fuck it, we ball" Yo thanks for the 1k likes yall are awesome

[@ryanhickson6399]

Funnily enough it seems the winnower is very anti ball

[@TheCarrionKing27]

@ryanhickson6399 ahem, do you mean to tell me he looks at the Gardener like "Square up"

[@ryanhickson6399]

@@TheCarrionKing27 more pyramid up but that's about right

[@LetMeEatIt]

​@@ryanhickson6399 well, the darkness isn't about pyramids. That's the witness. Actually, I'd argue the darkness is more about non-solid and even non-existent shapes considering the darkness holds domain over what isn't physical.

[@AnonYmous-wr7xr]

Not exactly the way I took that, the way it sounded was that The Gardener wasn't satisfied with the rules so proposed a new one, and The Winnower tried to call it out as breaking the original rules of "The Game". So in conflict, they branched out, and accidentally both created life DEDICATED to their own rules. It's very interesting that the Traveler ran so hard, so many times, and that The Gardener is so silent, but The Winnower is not just vocal, but stand-offish. Like watching everything going down is some huge experiment. Like it's seeing how everything plays out. Almost like The First Knife was the first move in a game.

[@kogden8110]

I think once the winnower realized that the witness wanted to achieve a different final shape than its own, it decided to help us toward defeating the witness, and may very well be responsible for us being able to use darkness so well. After all it was the veil that allowed us to learn strand on Neptune. And I think it’s version of the final shape, is going to be us.

[@ApsalusSigma]

I feel like the Winnower's quote within 'The First Knife' grimoire card about 'Your new rule will only make horror' (short paraphrase) is correct in the specific example of the Precursors and their Witness gestalt. Unfortunately for the rest of us in reality, it's never a good situation when something maliciously antagonistic has a knife of any kind, i.e. akin a 'Horror' Movie monster; let alone the metaphysic Knife of our reality's Cosmology-Myth... Also I subscribe to the conceit that the Vex were the original, recurrent, 'Final Shape' within the previous version(s) of the 'Flower Game'. Which also relates to how/why Paracausal phenomenon are so nigh-incomprehensibly difficult for the Vex to deal with.

[@proudlarry8225]

I REALLY like this revelation because it gives a sense of comedic timing to the Unveiling story. Because according to Ahsa, it was the actions of the Traveler that led to the creation of the Witness, and in Unveiling we see the Gardener suggest to the Winnower that they add their own laws to the game, which suggests the creation of the Traveler by the Gardener. And AFTER hearing the Gardener's idea, the Winnow doesn't seem too plussed on the idea, but it happens. And when it looks down at its hands after being forced to participate alongside the Gardener, it sees the First Knife has just suddenly come into being. Mucho metaphorical. The Winnower's passive attitude towards the whole game, believing that no matter what the Gardener does it will only delay the same result, implies it did not directly influence the creation of the Witness, it saw no need to, yet the actions of the Gardener caused the Witness to appear, and it placed itself in the Winnower's hand as its piece of its own prerogative.

[@underscore_5450]

I really love the "gods forged us both" line. I was not a big fan of the Witness before but Bungie's done a great job of making it work.

[@dakotalindbloom1853]

That line where the witness is referring to gods creating us both, meaning the witness and the guardian. It’s referring to the traveler creating us, and the winnower (veil) creating it.

[@MumboJumboZXC]

Nah. That’s dumb.

[@dakotalindbloom1853]

@@MumboJumboZXC lol

[@TyBe-uo4ud]

I doubt the traveler is the gardener. That would be so dumb; since the witness was manhandling the fucking Gardner!?!?! The traveler and witness are the same level, both being directly under their gods.

[@dakotalindbloom1853]

@@TyBe-uo4ud hey fun fact, on the destiny 2 wiki, the traveler is referred to as the the gardener. We have also had this in cutscenes and in game dialogue 🤷‍♂️

[@TyBe-uo4ud]

@@dakotalindbloom1853 ok? I've heard people refer to the witness as winnower, the wiki can change.

[@alter6243]

I love how the Winnower existing is such a W reveal for the community. The dev claiming that the Winnower might not exist is probably the reason it does. He probably knew exactly what he was talking about, but the Destiny community was so upset by it that Bungie changed course. I believe the Winnower did exist, then was changed into a concept to make the Witness seem more threatening, then was changed back into being it’s own entity.

[@supergatorhator]

Honestly this line really does not contradict the Winnower being metaphorical. The Witness is quoting its own creation myth - that doesn't mean the myth is real. The Winnower was an idea created by the Witness to describe its understanding of the universe.

[@kingkunta3753]

@@supergatorhator it doesn't really sound like a myth, considering things like the vex, the tree of silver wings, the stump in the black garden. frankly, you cannot confidently say it doesn't exist or not. also that very quote sounds pretty on the nose, the witness disagrees with what you posit

[@supergatorhator]

@@kingkunta3753 Saying "we are not the Winnower" is not acknowledging its existence, particularly when the book describing the Winnower and Gardener was made by the Witness. The story itself repeatedly says this is not literal. For example, saying "** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes." and "They chewed at their cracked lip, which existed *only because this is an allegory*." So, you have Unveiling, the only source of the story of the Winnower and Gardener, written by the Witness, which outright says that the Winnower and Gardener are principles of ontological dynamics and were not living entities. The Unveiling also specifically describes this story as an allegory - fiction with a hidden meaning. If we take this at face value, what is the hidden meaning that the Witness is trying to relay by giving us this story? By definition, an allegory is not literal. With that in mind, it seems to be talking about the Traveler uplifting species, "changing the rules" of the game/universe by giving life a chance to exist when it shouldn't. The Winnower represents the natural order of things, the inevitability of evolution/survival of the fittest. If we take this interpretation, the Witness being the first knife makes sense - it was created with the purpose of stopping the Traveler and using it to bring its vision of the final shape into existence. The fact that an allegory alludes to things that exist is not proof that it's literal. A novel that includes cars is suddenly not fiction because cars are real, therefore everything in it must also be real, right?

[@taa347]

THIS is what I wanted out of the lore since garden. This expands the universe again and stops it from all being about one (amalgamation) throwing a tantrum that made the universe feel so small all this time since their introduction. Also I think its a nice bit that both the gardener and the winnower believe their view as the kindness.

[@solojones1138]

Byf I really hope you do a video on the memories of the Traveler Micah can interpret for us in the Pale Heart.... The implications are huge, and also maybe imply the Traveler is not the Gardener but just a tool of it too? I'd love your insight

[@MrKanooe]

So...we're the first knife of the Gardener, and the Witness was the first knife of the Winnower?

[@MichaelThomas-q3m]

Yes we the champion of the gardener and the witness is the champion of the winnower so yeah

[@DonatelloEsq]

we're more like a trowel.

[@MichaelThomas-q3m]

@@DonatelloEsq yeah true gardeners do use trowels to plant gardens you are right at that one

[@chocopappy]

It's more like we are the first walls of the Gardener. Before a garden can be planted, the Gardener must separate the wild from the garden and keep them separate. Then he can worry about towels and shovels. Without the walls, those items just become weird little knives for the gardener to protect the garden.

[@abelortiz3010]

Wouldnt that be the traveler? Unless the traveler is the gardener

[@leviackyman9626]

Yeah I agree Oryx was the final boss of D1, The Witness for D2 and the creator of all the villains not the leader or commander the “CREATOR” is the final boss for D3. Boom we solved it, this just gets me more hyped to see where the story goes from here

[@robert2german]

I can imagine Byf discussing this while standing in front of a conspiracy-style corkboard.

[@guardofazkaban]

Hearing "I don't know" from Both Ikora and Byf is so terrifying...

[@whitehawkgaming6768]

The mention that the Winnower might be what Oryx spoke to in the books of sorrow. . . chills right there haha

[@tysonkrunek4132]

Stigma of the witness, the pale heart collectible sure looks like the needle pointing at the Traveler portal from Root of Nightmares as well as the main light core of of a vex conflux like they are all connected.

[@steveb3944]

I only came across your account recently, but I really enjoy the emphasis and articulation of your videos. Looking forward to more. 👏🏻

[@HasanBabasi]

The winnower and the gardener sound like two kids arguing.

[@SydDante]

The first knife lore page in this book, actually could very well be the moment the precursors found the Veil. The Veil must be the winnowers manifestation into the "game", and the Traveller must be the Gardeners physical manifestation into the game too. They said they "became part of the game, and the laws of the game became nomic (conventional), and open to change by our influence" Afterall, without the veil, they wouldn't be able to form the witness. Conductor through the choir and mass symphony into one being. The first Knife. Like it's said multiple times throughout LightFall year content, the Veil and the Traveller are part and parcel of one another in some way. The traveller looks like it sits perfectly in the roots of the Veil (that aren't really there because Osiris and Chioma confirm, the Veil has no tangible mass) Now, where in the heck do The Nine fit in all of this. The picture is becoming clearer, and though bungie say the light vs dark saga has come to an end, it's not the same meaning as the end of the Winnower and the Gardener battle.

[@eotwkdp]

I like the idea that the winnower prefer oryx over the witness.

[@hellothere-dk4gg]

The sword logic is much more in line with what the winnower seems to believe, so that would make sense. However, based on what savathun said during altars, the witness has much greater understanding of darkness than oryx

[@maxtopliss1552]

It’s like killing a large spider in your house and finding out it’s just the child. And the mother is taking up your entire ceiling.

[@lornastemen2472]

The First Knife stabbed into the Pale Heart

[@rikaru12]

I want to believe that the winnower isn't the veil as much as the gardener isn't the traveler only for it to be really simple for both entities to exist in our system without serious cosmic tremors existing. The gardener posed a new rule to reward growth and change and I believe that rule was the traveler (maybe the rule even being paracausality and it created both the traveler and the veil) the winnower seeing this found the precursor race after their disgruntlement and sought to use them to bring the final shape back as the status quo. I can really only cite the changes within the traveler due to the veils dark influence as a rule crafted with flexibility that it may also change and grow. This is a theory I've been cooking up while watching everything go down and haven't actually completed the raid myself either so I might be missing some key clues

[@nullpointer5603]

The traveler is constantly referred to as the gardener. Even luzaku called it that. So its opposite must be the winnower. Witness when its explaining it's origin in the campaign, says that they sought out the traveller's opposite and they show the veil. Veil is the winnower and it's not evil. Traveller is the source of the light and winnower is the source of the dark.

[@Ellevantahierros3000]

Wrong in so many levels

[@brendenrufh1818]

When i heard that shit in Aztecross stream the chat went wild and the raid team didnt even hear it 😂 but me and everyone in chat were losing their shit

[@CM-gp7bp]

If you remember the flower game. It seemed like the winnower's turn was very short, and the gardener's turn was long. Then it seems that when they entered the game, the gardener was in the game long before the winnower. And when it showed up the witness was already in their hand.

[@Avesevenfold]

I have social anxiety and use this game to relax so I don't experience important moments in the lore like the raid. Your channel helps me enjoy the story more than I would so I thank you.

[@cheenu711]

"Each child we save from the game, you again force to play. You call us "Winnower", we are not... but the first knife clutched in its hand. Gods forged us both, but they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve." This line gave me goosebumps when I heard while watching contest mode and going through the raid later with my fireteam. Man I'm so happy the amazing story from the lore books is coming to the forefront of Destiny. I am falling back in love with this game.

[@kommissarhades6676]

I always figured the two were distinct because I never heard The Witness say "Majestic. Majestic."

[@reednichols2178]

I just can't get over the visual of an ogre strutting around all confidently being like "Oryx my man!"😂😂

[@afitcouchpotato4014]

I’ve been looking into the lore for awhile and we’ve seen multiple different versions of what would be an apparent “ knife “ when it came down to the shape of the universe Crota as a good example was the result of darkness being permitted to stand ideally by and forced a veil of pain so powerful it killed thousands as a result of the darkness taking shape. Crota was suppose to be the supplicant of a disaster that would destroy humanity, he failed. Oryx came after that with the same hatred the witness had with as much conviction if not more then what the witness had since we not only survived, we killed the child of oryx as well. Oryx was a manifestation of what the hive gods could give which as one would imagine are a game in themselves being played by a darker power. Oryx failed at stopping us and did not complete its goal at taking the universe from us. Oryx had the power to control beings as the witness did as well which resulted in the ability to take control of cabal, hive, and so forth. The witness was the last knife to be snapped from its own conviction being too much for its own handle. It forced itself upon a universe in which we took control of the handle and melted the knife. After the witness confirmed the winnower was not itself it proved something created it, but in turn did not state it was a part of the winnowers vision, it stated its own version of the final shape and that was it. I believe as we progressed down the line to fight these forces of darkness the traveler did assist us with our new supers from D1 and D2 but as the threats got bigger and bigger the forces of darkness that the winnower saw as a different shape then its own provided us with a means to stop those beings. We couldn’t stop certain factions without having the ability to control stasis and strand which the traveler did not give us, and the witness certainly would not have given us. If the witness gave us the power to shape our own fate it would take away from its own vision. I think the winnower gave us strand and stasis and both of those powers combined into prismatic with the winnower and the traveler combined ultimately gave us the ability to destroy what both saw as the wrong idea of their game.

[@WolfBearHybrid]

My theory is based on the text that said that the Gardner became the rule. As did the Winnower. It may be that the Winnower is the Veil, the same way the Gardner is the Travler. Also the Winnower didn't said that he created the first knife, just that it was in his hands when he looked at it. Wich would make sense, since the Witness was created using the Veil.

[@terpy663]

this sounds like a philosophical interpretation of AdS/CFT correspondence and other "bulk & boundary" models in string theory. In this case the Winnower is the boundary, a lower dimensional space with rules and structure, from which the bulk emerges, our observable universe. The main idea is that the bulk (the "inside") can be completely described by the physics happening on its boundary. So the real conflict may lie in some action the Gardner took that fundamentally changed the boundary rules and the Winnower as result.

[@TheLuckyTim7]

I truly don’t think we can separate the ideas of Light and Dark from the representation of the Gardener and Winnower. It can be explained that the Winnower and Gardener aren’t beings, but as cosmic forces that can manifest as different things, such as the Traveler and the Veil? Maybe

[@giantwallrus]

"Can we defeat the winnower, we saw the traveler get injured" That raises an interesting question. If the Traveler and Veil are constructs of these extra-universal entities, the Gardener and the Winnower, then it could suggest neither can be wounded by the game they are playing, but their constructs can be damaged. So if the Traveler dies(which it won't because of the stagnant nature of live service games and because it is a playspace) then will light die or will light explode out of it like a cosmic force, no longer controller by The Gardener's Traveler. I mean in Unveiling text you read, the Gardener is a tactician, but in the post final shape audio logs, the traveler is a scared child that doesn't understand life and death or worship or devotion. This makes me think the Traveler is not 1:1 the Gardener but a construct that allows a piece of the Gardener to exist in reality. Because what is the age of 15 billion years to entities that live outside of time?

[@joshdamiani77]

HERE WE GO

[@sepphero9639]

Thing is, based on how things in this video are said it doesn't sound like the winnower is an active participant or even an opposing Force. The way he says he looked at his hands and discovered the first knife doesn't sound as if he created it but as if it appeared, basically a reference how growth will eventually create it's own end. How the scourge called the witness developed from growth by itself.

[@JonWinchesterofficial]

I think the winnower and the Gardner are essentially the equivalent to what they made Chuck and Amara in Supernatural. One is meant to build, the other is meant to destroy. But you need both to exist for reality to continue. If you take one off the scales, it creates an imbalance. So either both must exist, or both must be removed from the scales to keep balance

[@JonWinchesterofficial]

And for the SPN people who are gonna come in and say Chuck was a liar and a manipulator, I’m aware. What I’m saying is whether that concept was true there or not, I think it may be the case here

[@TheAntWatcher]

I suggest you play throw the cysts in the pale heart. They have dialogue and don’t others things like scannable as well as feathers that give you more dialogue. The traveler is the gardener the witness is the one who talked to Oryx. As well as the traveler changing from the darkness that is now part of it.

[@Ellevantahierros3000]

Wrong

[@DredgenStorm]

The Final Shape comes at a time of great tragedy and loss for my family. The idea that the great evil we have been struggling against and preparing to defeat is actually not THE GREAT EVIL......I'd a very difficult pill to swallow right now. I honestly don't know where to go or what to expect in either of my lives right now.

[@Ellevantahierros3000]

Why It has to be evil

[@rice_frying_shrimp]

I think one main thing we need to keep in mind with the Winnower and Gardener as representatives of greater concepts for their future roles in the story of Destiny is this: Bungie have chosen to call the events up to now the "Light and Dark saga" which they have been very openly saying has ended with Final Shape and/or will conclude with the final episodes of this coming year. Why then would they, for the next big part of their storyline go back to the concept of light and dark again? Would that not be inconsistent for one and secondly also kind of nonsensical to just reiterate your Leitmotif for a second time after you used it for 10 years and just promised to move away from it? That's just what's going on in the back of my mind as I'm thinking about this topic as well as what we can expect from the coming years either during the remainder of Destiny 2's lifecycle or in a possible third game.

[@pimpinpenguin6973]

Lore Daddy with another dose of sweet sweet Lore juice

[@darrylhammett63]

I had this same idea I heard the Witness say "I am the first knife". But I also think light and dark together create infinite complexity, the gardeners goal.

[@msp720]

I don't know, this could _easily_ still be a metaphor. All it means is that it believes the mythology. A being that desires to become a universe-shaping god would say this same line whether or not its gods were real or conceptual. It also contradicts the Witness's own story of calling the Traveler the Gardener and desiring a Winnower (the Veil) to strip away all else. Don't take The Witness literally - I also don't think Bungie would drop such a big bombshell like that in a single line that 5% of the player base is going to hear.

[@Dizastermaster.]

THE ONE PIECE!!!

[@sethhasse7477]

Maybe the Witness at one time followed more closely to the winnower's final shape, starting with the first disciple Rhulk. Because the Witness had found Rhulk as the perfect tool to destroy Lubrae, the Witness had found a small peon and turned him into a god pretty much. Rhulk had won the sword logic because he became something so much more than the people of Lubrae. Maybe the Witness did once believe in the sword logic but gave up faith in the gardener and winnower and decided to make its own final shape by reducing everything to stillness

[@androiddefence9477]

At a distance I thought that the stump was a rock of vex design back in vanilla D1

[@mikemarino7806]

The implications of the "origins of the universe" here are so closely dialed in with that of the questions that we have. What I really find interesting is when you break down our Solar System, our physics, our laws of how things work, there's a simple way to look at things: light (literally) is an energy source of some sort. Darkness is not "something", it is just the absence of light (or energy). The universes default setting is dark and cold. Only when external factors of energy are introduced, does the dark and cold "go away". Luckily, the Universe has some incredible ways of creating energy through means of chaos and destruction... The sad realization that I've come to is that darkness and cold are really the only persistent things in this Universe - not because they are "things", but because it takes energy and work to conquer dark and cold. Just imagine what would happen to our Solar System if the Sun stopped doing it's thing - we plunge into darkness and cold, and we cannot survive. I wonder if Bungie is leaning into this motif. Light and energy symbolize hope, life, possibility...darkness is the idle state of everything, absent of light and energy. Completely devoid of anything and everything. The over-arcing story here can be about the constant effort and work put in to maintaining an energy source, to perpetuate light, hope, life...how it's always worth it to even *try*, despite the Universe's best efforts to throw us off track at times.

[@stephenwinemiller1991]

I don't even play destiny anymore I just wait for byf vids to keep up on the lore

[@johnnybarrett9017]

I KNEW. The Winnower and the Witness were two different beings. You could tell from the Witness's conversation and backstory that there was a greater force of darkness that surpassed it and now it's officially confirmed

[@grammsay]

The idea that a cosmic being such as the Traveler can be wounded, or perhaps even "killed," is certainly intriguing. However, I don't think it's as simple as that. I propose that the Traveler and the Veil are entities that connect the Gardener and the Winnower to the Universe-a link. This link can be shattered, disrupting the universal structure as we know it-perhaps not ending it, but leaving the universe in the control of either paracausal force. I don't think the Veil is a foe, nor do I think it really cares about us. Its primary concern is winning the game and achieving its Final Shape through the Sword Logic. When that happens, I imagine the universe ending and the game being played anew. Moreover, I think that the Final Shape is designed as such to be inevitable. Yet, the Witness's actions against the Traveler-introducing 'Darkness' to it-are perplexing. I don't fully understand what that means or its implications. What intrigues me is that the Witness is referred to as "The First Knife," implying that there may be others. The notable thing about a knife is its use to carve something, perhaps into the Pale Heart, similar to an operation where something is either removed or introduced. I imagine we will learn more about the Winnower and its other knives in future releases. However, I doubt the Winnower will be portrayed as a main villain or enemy. It is, after all, a paracausal constant, a force that contributed to the creation of the universe, and Creation (as a whole) may be intrinsically linked to the connection between the Traveler and the Veil.

[@REDcladSPECTER]

If the Winnower’s idea of the final shape if more in line with the Hive’s Sword Logic then it’s likely Xivu will end up being a major player. We know Episode: Heresy is touching on the Hive pantheon and Xivu already has a grip on Eremis’s House Salvation so if the winnower starts looking for a new knife she may be first in line.

[@AttentionDeficitGuy]

So if this theory is true, the Winnower is real and affecting the universe through the Veil, and its goal (or part of it) was to introduce Darkness into the Traveler, then my theory on the "why" is this: it is attempting to unleash paracausality into the universe on a grand scale, to the point that it is no longer running in parallel to universal laws but is instead a part of them Perhaps the Winnower's main problem with the Gardener's "new rule" wasn't the rule itself, but the careful way it was implemented so that it prolonged the game without disrupting it. In short, instead of a chosen few being uplifted so they have a greater chance of survival and the ability to protect the weak from the predations of the strong, the Winnower would prefer that the new rule apply to all things equally so that it just becomes one more universal variable in the flower game, another step towards the true Final Shape Given that we know the Echoes are being scattered across the galaxy, they are bundles of Light and Dark energy, and at some point Fikrul will be able to "wield" one granting him incredible power, it might be that paracausality is already being distributed to the universe at large on a much grander scale and in a less controlled way than the Traveler's upliftings, all as a direct result of recent events

[@FoolOverride]

That ending is VERY speculative. You suggest that just because the Traveler was harmed that the Veil can be harmed, and that harm translates to the Gardener and Winower is a reach. Its like saying that I am harmed if someone dislikes food that I cook. Its a bit of a reach to suggest that a Creator is harmed when its Creation is harmed. Its entirely possible that when the Gardener made itself a Law in the flower game, it then, after entering the game, created the Traveler as a means to spread the light, with the Winower doing the same with the Veil. They are tools used by these creation gods to exert their influence, but they are not the "One Ring" of tools. Their destruction doesnt stop either creation god from influencing the game

[@HealeyGoldman-ev5dg]

Hey, I have a theory: the winnower wants to “clear the board” of the flower game. It knew the witness wasn’t to last. It wants to destroy both the traveler and the veil to “reset” the game, without the gardener’s rule

[@perfectlyhopeless]

I was going through gear lore cards a couple nights ago and was particularly taken by Microcosm's and how it seems to be the Traveler's perspective when terraforming Mars. Does anyone know of other pieces told directly from the Traveler's POV? I'm genuinely curious and would love reading them. I'm especially curious given the perceived silence of the Traveler towards the Guardians and all of its other followers, it's fascinating to me to find its actual thoughts and feelings towards us and its work

[@rpadinha77]

I see the Winnower as the Jungian shadow of the Gardener, coming out of the accumulated memory/trauma of the process of becoming. Not two gods but two aspects of one entity. The trauma creates the illusion of separation and therefore manifests the Winnower/shadow as a force that fragments reality into individual entities struggling for survival (sword logic, glass shattering imagery). The Gardener on the other hand is the pure light of creation, the summum bonum of christian mithology, devoid of memory and the illusion of separation (guardians, ghosts, traveller, all returning to it). The fact that Osiris and others describe darkness as a network has to do with it being a dark reflection of the Gardener's oneness, it is the awareness that is born from it (Winnower) that separates.

[@DJThomas59]

I would love to go into the veil next expansion as a companion to us going into the traveler. Maybe force us into perspective of the witness as we invade the veil with light.

[@eddiemacias7023]

theory: the winnower may contact toland, or vice versa, to fill in for the taken king. Wether it will actually be the taking king or some different version of the taken king I'm not sure. But the sword logic and the devotion to its fulfilment is something that both oryx and toland share. The sword logic is something that matches the winnowers belief of the universe as shown with the flower game it played with the gardener. So while the witness may be the first knife I feel that if the winnower wants its belief to be fulfilled the taken king must rise again.(savuathun did tease this but unclear if it refered to the returning raid) and I belive toland may be a prime candidate. Cuase while Xivu Artha might be the obvious choice for some. her apparent love for her family and her desire of vengeance is hypocritical, to her belief in the sword logic. As Savathun even points out in memory that i believe Imaru shows us. Her belief in the sword logic isn't as sturdy as it once was, but Toland has never shakened. He did ask if any vacancy would occur. I belive he means to fulfill what we didn't. And the winnower might sezie this devotion and make toland the next taken king and its new knife.

[@ronaldmayorga7962]

I think the thing that I feel most validated about is the fact that the Witness has been around since the near Inception of the universe it's a bare minimum at least 12 billion years old. The one thing I've always hated about Destiny is the timeline and the lack of dates. The Witness validating that it's the first knife tells me that not only has it existed since nearly the beginning of all time but that Rhulk and the Hive are also Billions of years old. We know for a fact that leaves the hive are 4 billion years old so roll cast to at least be as old or older. Most people probably don't care about that but it's very important for me because it adds to that Eldritch feeling fighting horrors of the dark that have existed since time immemorial

[@engengclown]

so... Gardener and Winnower is compete against each other in a "Flower game", which is likely the universe? So, they create/use the universe and place a representative cosmic entity which is Traveler and The Veil?

[@eliotfleming9221]

Maybe the Winnower is a sort of cosmic spirit, and the Witness played a sort of "avatar" role as the First Knife, and maybe we do the same for the Gardener as Guardians.

[@inquisitorichijou883]

"We are the first knife that cut purpose into being!" The Witness confirmes it again during the Exicision mission.

[@warlord3267]

What if there’s a third thing? It seems like neither gardener, nor the winnower were in control of the witness, but the witness also doesn’t seem to be fully in control.

[@JulieTijerina]

We are the "first knife" equivalent to the traveler/gardener as the witness is the fist knife to winnower

[@regular-user]

I found it super telling how the Witness put emphasis on the first knife comment.

[@briantorres3712]

this has me looking at the dark future lore books as a possibility of it happening. i mean where was eris throughout final shape and who isn’t to say she finally succumbs to darkness in the future

[@shatterfall_hunted8236]

Per what we know the Gardener and the Winnower represent light and darkness. In a "game" that is absolute the Gardener wants to introduce change and creativity just how the Traveler introduced itself into worlds with already established rules and powers and introduced change and creativity. The Winnower wanted this to not happen to keep everything as is just like the Witness wanting to use the Final Shape to keep anything to a "solid" and constant state. Darkness as we know is a power of the mind and thought , when the Winnower looked at the Gardener after their conversation it was thinking about stopping that plan of the Gardener and when it look at its hand it saw the means and tool stop it aka the first knife , it thought it into existance. The tree of silver wings has its own lore to explore , combine light and dark and you get gray/silver and the wings of the tree resemble the wings of the bird that is guiding us in the Pale Heart however there the bird is only "light". Also something else to mention is that to trully have something be existant it needs both light and dark to be , Light maybe a power of creation but as we see with out abilities it fades out but when you introduce darkness something can become both Alive and Constant or in other words Darkness - the Idea of something and Light - the Power to create something , combine the two and you can make an existance be , to both create and be constant , to be born and to live.

[@colelynid2599]

Realistically, if we were to beat/kill the winnower, wouldn’t we prove the final shape and fail the gardeners plan of complexity; ending the flower game with only the strongest surviving at the very end (the witness did say we were a lot like the hive in this outlook)

[@barbedmitten4475]

The way I see it the Gardener and Winnower are neither good nor evil they are just beings that exist outside the universe where destiny takes place and not only made the destiny universe but other universes before. The only difference being that in the previous universes they directly interfered for example what ever the Gardener made the Winnower destroyed and whatever the Winnower destroyed the Gardener remade essentially and endless stalemate until they made the current universe where they decided that instead of interfering they would merely leave they influence on the world like the traveler and the veil basically saying that if one of them is right the only to prove it let they universe and its inhabitants decide. That’s where the guardians come we originally thought that the darkness was evil until we got strand and stasis and learned that Witness had been using the darkness to further its own goals because both the Gardener and Winnower have a quote unquote final shape where one of them wins except the witness planned to change and pervert the Winnower’s final shape just like it did the darkness, so instead of a world without infinity the witness takes that to mean a world without choice kinda like Cyrus from Pokémon where he believes the only way to perfect the world is to remove emotion the witness believes the only way to perfect the universe is to remove choice. But here’s the funny part neither the Winnower or Gardener are right because a universe of infinite possibility means infinite ways to suffer and a world without infinity means a universe with only suffering because they ultimately lead to the same thing the end of the game or life as we know it. If infinity is always happening then that takes up infinite space in the universe chokes out life and nothing happening leads to life never starting in the first place so the only way for the universe to survive to avoid both leave room for possibility but control it essentially moderation kind of like a garden except instead of the gardener who would see nothing but growth that leads to destruction or the Winnower that sees an empty plot the inhabitants of the universe need to tend to the garden ensuring growth but keeping it within the garden’s confines lest they become weeds. So in summary the right choice is to live and not pick a side and just create a space for everyone in the universe.

[@trainergrim]

The Nine have also talked about the game. And how we have the power to leave when ever we want.

[@beeruceprime6077]

I think the question of Should we kill the Winnower is interesting. It feels kind of like Galactus in Marvel, where he is less a bad guy and more a cosmic force of balance. In almost any timeline where Galactus is killed, the universe is thrown out of whack and there’s always something worse coming after.

[@dominush4056]

What would the Winnower even look like? Can we even stop them? Truly the hardest foe we’ll ever face…can’t wait. If we can kill Devil I mean…we’ll literally be OP lol

[@VaporWalrus]

My current theory is that if introducing darkness into the traveler was the ultimate goal of the winnower, at least in this stage of the game, then the echoes that resulted in that fusion could point to why. Darkness and Light were the main tools of the winnower and gardener up until just recently. If the traveler can accept the guardian's use of darkness to fight the witness then maybe the winnower thinks that the agent that will bring about the final shape it wants must also wield the Light and the Dark. Since the next year is codenamed Frontiers my bet is one or more of those echoes has left the Sol system and is creating the next phase in the Winnower's plan.

[@Sojuroh]

if the winnower won the initial fight in the garden before time, wouldn't that mean that the traveler is all that is left of the gardener, not necessarily the gardener itself in its entirety?

[@RossAshmore]

"Can we kill the winnower?" If I can turn it into a cool weapon, ABSOLUTELY!

[@blackwingz7618]

I always believed that the veil itself if the manifestation of the winnowed, just as the traveler is for the gardener. They are the physical manifestation of themselves respectively. Also as we have seen the traveler is ALIVE. It is a LIVING BEING WITH A WILL. I believe the veil is the same, and at some point if we REALLY want to make a difference or stop the real “ final shape” then I believe we have to go into the heart of the veil

[@randomgenretalk8151]

In theory, the Winnower doesn't have to do anything because everything will eventuelly end and proof the Winnower right anyway. Even though the Winnower is now part of the flower game, maybe the Winnower is enjoying after all.

[@gbeats163]

The view of the Winnower seems very simillar to Oryx's logic, only the strong life can survive in the universe. Some times i think that when Oryx communed with the deep, it was with the winnower and not the witness.

[@GhostoftheTenthEye]

i would like to bring attention to the old eldrich being being brought in during the episode heresy. i find it all to telling that this eldrich entity is connected to the hive and give this news

[@kirittv]

Thank you for mentioning that if we were to destroy the winnower then the universe may cease to exist. I think that's important to establish

[@mrpeach4528]

So when we kill the Witness it says. “We….i….I don’t understand.” What I took is that when we killed it before it could make the final shape it finally realized that the promise the Winnower told the witness (the final shape) was a lie or maybe a false promise that the Winnower made the witness saying the final shape was easily mangled until the guardians of the light stepped in and made the Witness realize in its final breath.

[@steelgriffin7716]

yea, this blows out my hypothesis that "Dudebro Darkness", the being that Oryx communed with, was a terrifyingly mundane thing. That being some unnamed unknown disciple. No. It's the Winnower itself. Has to be.

[@Shadowslave604]

for some reason not getting notifies about videos from you. you can thank Aztecross for covering this video. great work as usual Byf.

[@jasonstanczyk8342]

I dont know if youll ever read this Byf, but I hope you do. @My name is Byf So what if, we as guardians are fighting for the winnower? So if you think about it as such the light and darkness saga was just a game that the winnnower created to find out who is the strongest? It wouldnt care really who is the strongest, or what tools (light/dark/space magic/hive magic) was used as long as 1 entity became superior, which is us. We always get stronger, similar to the sword logic. We always end up beating the big baddie in combat. We cannot be exempt from the rules of the universe when thinking in terms of the gardener and the winnower. The gardener aligns with the Vex, the Ahamkara, the Nine ect. the complex and unknown mysteries of the destiny universe. These are very complicated themes in general, and havent fully been understood or explained. My reasons for thinking about this, is that the light and dark saga was simple, be the strongest and last alive. This is the motivation for the winnower, life, growth, death. repeat. The veil could have been the first knife, but the traveler could have been the second, the elements are more simple forces of nature and very destructive. On the contrary the Vex travel through time, their race is a very complex microorganism that lives in liquid form. The set pieces and everything about the Vex is always complicated as if its a computer, and with the time aspect the whole topic flips any story or any rules on their head. Similarly we can apply this thought process to the Ahamkara as well as the Nine. When thinking about the flower petal game between the gardener, and the winnower we can guess that its the same game as pulling petals from a flower (he loves me, he loves me not.) except instead of love its life and death. Which explains that this pattern is always repeated. Time travel would entirely change how the petal game is played, making wishes would change the rules of the game. These are examples of the gardener adding complexity to the game. I think people are focusing too small of a scale, as to what the end game is just because we are so close. I think the game is much bigger than anyone realizes, and with the light and dark saga being under the winnowers side of the game, this means that anything could have happened and it wouldn't have changed much in the end for the winnower, they would have gotten the strongest in the end.

[@chaotea2042]

The text did say the winnower looked down and discovered the first knife. So it may not have made the witness, even indirectly, but by placing itself 'in the game' like the traveller did, its essence became a rule / force in the universe. The precursors may have used these rules to create the witness themselves, and in doing this created the first knife. The witness claims to be independent, and likely is, but is shaped by the winnowers power, darkness, and follows its influence. In addition i think the winnower is not an enemy of the traveller, and doesn't seek its destruction / corruption. It seemed content in the flower game. I don't even think the winnower is a bad guy. Its the embodiment of finality. Not death or entropy, but of resolution. If the gardener is the embodiment of growth and change, the winnower is the embodiment of, well, stasis. Together they create 'perfection' trough the flower game, but this always offered the same outcome. I also wonder if the flower game wasnt the creation of the universe, but what the traveller has been doing all along. Raising up individual civilisations, while the winnower refines it. In 'putting themselves in the game' they became the traveler and the darkness. The light is the new variable, the strength for individuals to change their fate.

[@steeldragon5730]

One thing to think about, The witness is the "FIRST" knife, instead of only or last knife. Could there be other "Knives"? or even have more be created?

[@azrazerz1445]

Byf is the Winnower. The lore master. The keeper of hidden truths. The hand behind all our suffering. This is the only true option.

[@henriquealvarenga9244]

Couldn't the winnower be the veil, giving the witness the purpose it seeked and metaphorically transforming it into it's first knife? Would also make sense with the "gods that created us" line. It sees itself as created by the veil, just as we were created by the traveler.

[@ShutInCuber]

I think personally, that the Winnower is pure darkness, but what we have wrong is WHAT pure darkness is. Darkness is something that is more like the embodiment of what the Winnower wants/believes in. The "true" Final Shape is very similar to the sword logic in practice, and the attempt to achieve the "true" final shape is the Winnower being pure darkness, part of the game, attempting to reach the "true" Final Shape. What The Witness was to the Winnower is like what the disciples were to The Witness. Helping him achieve that goal, but not entirely the same thing in their own minds. So The Witness was trying to achieve the Final Shape, but was confused on what the final shape truly was, probably clouded by their own bias from their own memories and pain, and then attempted to create it, but were doing the things to create the "wrong" Final Shape. So, we'll continue fighting the darkness, but very differently, because now this darkness isn't here to try and put the entire universe into a standstill, but rather, simply trying to follow the logic of how the strongest always wins, very much like the sword logic. Feel free to correct me in the comments in what misinterpretations that I may have, I'll edit my comment, and put into here what I edited out and changed it to.

[@tombsmb]

We've had the First Disciple, and now The First Knife.

[@nemokrad2650]

Hey so does this mean that the reason light and dark can coexist so easily and seem to have once been whole is because the act of the gardener and winnower entering the “game” as laws split the two powers from eachother?

[@fracture4047]

So the Light and Darkess saga ISN'T over? *reloads Fatebringer