Destiny Finds Himself In A Frustrating Toxic Masculinity Debate...

Last night on Destiny
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#Destiny
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[@Braddockggb]

It's so frustrating listening to someone talk in complete circles, but CONSTANTLY miss that they're going in circles.

[@__RD14533]

It’s because they are a bot. They have like 3 memorized talking points and is just good at circling back to them endlessly

[@NaR00W]

@@__RD14533 Good job thinking for yourself buddy. The reason people disagree is because they're a bot. That's definitely not something a bot would say :) Good bot.

[@omariyon]

@@NaR00W yeah its a crazy projection

[@__RD14533]

@@NaR00W I can actually engage with what you’re saying without desperately going back to the same 3 talking points that I built my entire personality and career on tho 🤷‍♂️

[@fifiadan]

@@__RD14533 Isn’t Destiny just repeating the same progressive talking points every time he discusses this? I’ve not heard one new or interesting thing from Destiny on this topic.

[@Mr.Coffee576]

How is this guy saying social pressure isn't the reason why he is not willing to wear a dress, and then proceeds to say that he doesn't want to be seen as a cross dresser ? My dude, you are more concerned with how society perceives you than the 300 dollars that Destiny is willing to give you. That is social pressure.

[@roundtabledetails3307]

well kinda

[@at5203]

Also, he insisted that he didn't know how america could be more egalitarian, but when giving his "Norway Paradox" he seemed to emphasise how more egalitarian Norway was. So which one is it? Is Norway more egalitarian, or are laws were equality starts and ends?

[@ConceptHut]

His counter was that it would be degrading. Degrading is a different kind of thing than social pressures. Degrading is like a personal thing not a social thing.

[@at5203]

@@ConceptHut Finding something degrading is 100% something that could be a social thing. That counter makes no sense.

[@ConceptHut]

@@at5203 what do you think I'm saying?

[@venom.gaming]

That dress argument just killed him. His brain melted. Such a perfect mic drop 😁

[@doda508]

the really annoying thing is that it would be a mic drop if he got the guy to admit or prove that he's wrong, which he refuses to do because he refuses to walk the guy through it in the simplest manner .

[@venom.gaming]

@@doda508 He led him to the water, but he can't make him drink.

[@doda508]

@VeNoM Gaming I know but its more like he's walking with a kid, and sees something cool and is like oh, look over there on the right , there's a really colorful bird, and then the kid looks left because he doesn't know left from right yet, but instead of like tapping him and being like I mean that direction, he just says, you really can't see the bird?

[@mayanksaboo8045]

​@@doda508 a good display of toxic behaviour on his side

[@venom.gaming]

@@doda508 I didn't see it like that.

[@mairan1]

Goodness, the moment he said liberals bring race all the time when he was the first to bring Asians as an example is just so rich. The level of self unaware hypocrisy is astonishing.

[@tarfielarchelone2674]

Definitely a certified ugh non biased "normal" male of non determining eace moment.

[@bonnyp97]

I was gonna comment this so thank you so much for catching it too LOL

[@filipjirovy8557]

Race means black people in his mind

[@roxienatura]

I was thinking this exact thing, I only wish Destiny had called him out on it.

[@Randomusername822]

@Bonnie bruh everytime u weirdos bring up race its always anti white racism 😂😂

[@kosiregis]

Damn this guy really excluded logic from his arguments

[@Glitterymocha]

I read this as they were arguing about "excluded" 🤣🤣😭

[@off6848]

His logic was perfectly on point

[@jesusmora6336]

@@off6848 homie argued that exclusion can only be about legal exclusions. He has the iq of a brick wall

[@milktoast1847]

Ahktually there is no law that would allow him to exclude logic from the debate

[@jbark678]

There wasn't a law

[@AstrodeBastro]

I can't believe he couldn't see the irony in the "dress hypothetical". Dude gets a medal for most insane mental gymnastics performed in a span of 10 minutes.

[@bigdog91paper]

He's just an ideologically driven idiot.

[@dsbpakman7469]

Him Comparing being paid to wear a dress for a day to cross dressing is like calling mascots furrys

[@sticky4401]

Honestly, ignoring the other guy who was just reciting programmed responses, from Destiny this is probably one of the best explanations of the issue that I've ever seen.

[@cryptocaesar8972]

It wasn’t a good explanation at all the other guys just not good at debating. The end convo talking about women in gaming was so shit it cringed me out because the other guy couldn’t talk well. The analogy offering $50 to wear a dress, doing something you don’t want to do for money, is in no way comparable to a woman “wanting to play video games” which can literally be done in the comfort of your own home in private with no one needing to even know you’re female but giving up because someone talks shit is absolutely absurd. As a boy I’d have taken that 50 bucks to go spend on video games, nothing would have stopped me from liking them and in fact, if you were an actual elite level girl sports player you would instantly become one of the most privileged famous pro players that exists the amount of people who jump on that simp train.

[@skidmark322]

@@cryptocaesar8972 did your brain turn off for the rest of the debate? Destiny's point was that if 99% of pro gamers are male then clearly there is intense social pressure preventing women from pursuing that career. obviously this is an issue. you have absolutely no perspective on the mounting social pressure that results from pursuing a career you are excluded from... but you dont even need that, because you can at least recognize that a society which excludes people from any career based on gender is harmful. unless you dont believe in equality lmao

[@andreashofmann4556]

@@cryptocaesar8972 It's a perfect analog. If i offered you 50$ to wear a black t-shirt you would. If you were a woman and i offered you 50$ to wear a dress you also probably would. It's just because of social pressure you don't want to wear a dress. If you were a boy and could play video games all day (something i did) and make friends online, you would. If you could play video games all day but was made fun of or made to feel "excluded" for being a girl you probably wouldn't. You just desperately want social pressure to be valid in one situation but not the other.

[@cryptocaesar8972]

​@@andreashofmann4556 Thats an absolute cope,it’s a request from you that’s got nothing to do with my happiness or what I want compared to doing something that women supposedly want to do and would make them happy, and secondly on that topic even if you wanted to compare the pressure aspect itself if I was going into public wearing a dress, the level of societal pressure would not be at all comparable, constant and often possible physical confrontation on an extreme niche of breaking societal Norms, when contrary when it comes to women THE VAST MAJORITY OF GAMING MEN WANT THEM TO PLAY GAMES. Every gamer nerd I know thinks it’s cool when women play video games, they want their women to enjoy games with them, Women have FAR more dudes being ultra nice simps and nice experiences than I would as a hairy dude with a beard wearing a dress which could easily be near 100% negative perception and encounter and far far more simps than any negative experience they have. So to be clear, that analogy could not be more polar opposite. Secondly what women are often dealing with that’s “negative” is often dudes who STILL want them to game, but are trying to flirt or some bs and being weird. You could not stop me from gaming short of criminalizing it. The reality is that women don’t have the same interests as top pro gamers and how much they grind to get to those top levels. Men aren’t keeping them out. In fact there is a vacuum, if a single women could become an elite pro gamer they would probably blow into the biggest star in esports they just can’t do it, and they’re not even close because they don’t want to because grinding the same exact game every day for 10 hours is not an ideal biological driver for the female sex.

[@Era-lk1lo]

​@@andreashofmann4556 Wait I wouldn't wear a dress for $50 but it doesn't mean I am excluded from it.

[@BadgerUKvideo]

This guy sounded like he's mastered level 1 of this topic. He should probably move into the next levels at this point.

[@TriggeringOpinionsandFacts]

That’s the exact vibe I got lol it’s like getting really good at understanding slopes in CALC then only using slope terms to discuss derivatives. Stocks go up during good economy but not understanding how their statistical relationship towards other factors plays into it which cause some to gain more than others.

[@off6848]

Okay convince me. There are traits all sexes have access to but certain traits are expressed more through masculinity or femininity. If a woman beats another woman up over something petty is she being toxic masculine? Or she a toxic person expressing a trait (combat) ? You guys are on level 0 thinking you can cast fireball 😂

[@johnnyb5534]

The next level where the left goes crazy, takes the reigns of all major societal institutions, and destroys the country - aka 2023?

[@InlandDiscoEmpire]

He actually makes sense lol.

[@off6848]

@david dunn is then when dump all your stats into 3 pointers with your JBP character on nba 2k?

[@cryptodazed9138]

Of course he wouldn't wear the FEMALE dress... This guy is almost smart enough for the conversation.

[@Aliyaaaa]

Give him some time. The dress thing was beautifully inserted into into debate tho

[@battlehotdog]

give him the male dress for drag queens, maybe he would do it then

[@muckdriver]

Wait until he hears there's 2 whole countries that have pride in men wearing skirts.

[@lynno.8539]

I'm actually surprised he didn't say yes. It's just a dress.

[@brandonannisette6023]

That’s dumb

[@dickstarrbuck]

This is just a weird conversation. It boils down to Destiny trying to help him understand what "toxic masculinity" is, and him (RC?) just playing the syntax game. Its basically Destiny saying "This soup is spicy, hench spicy soup" and RC? sayin "Spicy soup doesnt exist, its just whether or not the person eating the soup can take spicy food. the soup is always neutral" then following up with "we never hear people talk about spicy corn"

[@Sniperfuchs]

It's always how these conversations go. The last 5 minutes is what I'd call the "litmus test" of debate around toxic masculinity. If you are incapable of understanding that there is a difference between being insulted about benign or almost comical features in a gaming lobby (like height or fat or whatever) vs a woman who will be insulted about literally who/what she is, you don't have a stake in this topic, full stop.

[@fensteroffen]

the problem is whether the soup is inherently spicy and thus soup is a problem or whether the spice is a separate ingredient that is not inherent to soup. spicy corn is spicy for the same reason, because of the spices, not because of the inherent natures of soup or corn. so if you wanna address the spicyness of soup, the guest proposes to look at the spices themselves, not the soup.

[@chrischris7003]

​@Alex Siebenhaar but what he's not admitting is that is that the spices do make the soup spicy. The soup isn't seen as neutral with spice in it. The spices come together in the soup to create a spicy soup.

[@jbark678]

@@fensteroffen Toxic masculinity would still work as a descriptive term whether or not the traits it describes are inherent (they aren't, by the way, but they are often conditioned from a young age, hence why they need to be specifically addressed).

[@frostdracohardstyle]

@@fensteroffen But the soup is spicy. So you still have the say the soup is spicy. The only way to take the spicyness out of the soup is to remove the spice (toxic behaviors). Everything in thsi is just saying "this thing isnt inherent to men, so therefore i never have to take any responsibility for improvement". These people would never make that excuse in the opposite direction.

[@MaxPowers2.0]

…You know what’s infuriating? When you’re having a discussion with someone and they refuse to acknowledge Simple definitions of words because it disagrees with the entirely manufactured argument they’re trying to sketch out.

[@ClimbAndTeach]

This could honestly be applied both ways. I fully understood the gentlemen's points and I think Destiny was being equally semantic in his pushback.

[@LostTrigger]

​@@ClimbAndTeach how was destiny being semantic

[@sleezerbarbarossa6080]

​@@ClimbAndTeachagree

[@ClimbAndTeach]

@@LostTrigger I think the other gentlemen was making a perfectly fine point about 'exclusion'. Social pressures aren't exclusion in a formal sense, and it was a formal discussion. I think Destiny would have been fine to cede then this then discuss social pressures and whether or not feminism is warranted to solve those.

[@MaxPowers2.0]

@@ClimbAndTeach no in this discussion Destiny was the more reasonable party by far.

[@capcaptainmycaptain4771]

The irony of this guy saying that conversations can get overly semantic when he's ultra-grade, anally semantic about the definition of "exclusion"

[@off6848]

He’s right, it took surgery to expose Destiny Because something is socially less accepted or expected doesn’t mean it unacceptable The reason he wouldn’t wear the dress for $50 is because he didn’t want to. If he wanted to wear a dress I’m sure he would even if it’s not socially expected

[@jdjenk04]

@@off6848 Destiny's point is that part of the reason he didn't want to to begin with is because the social pressures. So if there was no social pressure against guys wearing dresses, he'd be more inclined to say yes instead of "not wanting to."

[@off6848]

@@jdjenk04 he would never say yes if he didn’t feel like it is the point you’re missing You could offer me $500 to do 500 jumping jacks and 364/365 days I’ll tell you to go f Ck yourself Jumping jacks has no stigma

[@davidh4653]

It's not even the correct definition of "exclusion." Exclusion doesn't require a law stopping you. If kids are picking teams for a pickup basketball, and the girl never gets picked, she's being excluded even if it's legal to do so. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you can't be excluded from doing it in other ways.

[@davidh4653]

​@@off6848 Exclusion is not just about whether you're technically allowed to do something under the law. Nobody uses the word that way because the world doesn't work that way. Let's use the "guy wearing a dress" example. The guy's argument (and your argument, I assume) is that there might be social pressure for him not to wear the dress, but there's no law preventing it, so it's not exclusion. I would assume you would agree then, hypothetically, that if the government passed a law saying that if a guy wears a dress, he will be fined $1000, that would be guys being "excluded" from wearing dresses. Technically, he could choose to wear the dress anyways, if he was willing to pay $1000 each time for doing so, but we would all call that exclusion because the economic harm is preventing him from doing so. So, instead, let's say that there's no law against a guy wearing a dress, but the guy's boss says to him, "I hear you want to wear dresses outside of work, but if I find out you're doing so, I'm going to fire you." That's perfectly legal. Private businesses are allowed to fire someone except for very specific reasons, like due to them being a protected class. It's perfectly legal to fire someone because you don't like how someone dresses, even outside of work. Would you say that person is being excluded from wearing dresses? If not, why? In both cases, the person is being threatened with economic harm, but can still choose to do so if he was willing to accept that harm. The only difference is that it's a private business doing it, rather than the government. Even if the person could eventually find a job somewhere else, it doesn't change the fact that he's going to suffer economic harm from that choice. That's still him being excluded. If we recognize that harm can be more than physical (jailtime), and that the person doing the excluding can be private actors and not just the government, and that the threat of being harmed is a form of exclusion, it logically follows that other forms of harm, if they are sufficiently detrimental, can also be exclusionary. Emotional harm, social harm, etc., are all harms that can be serious enough so as to be exclusionary. Now, two different people can disagree on if a certain level of harm is exclusionary. But, let's not pretend that there's no such thing as people being excluded due to social pressure. It's just a question of what we're talking about and how much social pressure there is.

[@andreistanciulescu7820]

"it is what it is" - best argument ever.... Also, "everything is neutral".... Argue with that, Destiny....

[@dazza761]

Maybe it's just me .but I don't think there are any masculine or feminine traits. Just traits that are more common in each gender. There's no need to umbrella term them cuz that narrows people into stereotypes... So I don't think toxic femininity or masculinity exists just toxic actions/traits just like there are positive actions /traits.

[@JuliAuditore]

​@@dazza761 But wouldn't the fact that there more common in one gender make them an intrinsic trait to that gender?

[@isaiasortiz100]

@@dazza761 "Just traits that are more common in each gender." Theres a way of performing conventially masculine traits that puts men at a disadvantage. Considering the mental health crisis men are facing and the general proclivity to violence its probably fitting to frame it as "toxic masculinity".

[@blacksuitedsonic]

Almost as fun as moral relativism debates. "There are no wrong actions since there are no objective morals". Have fun with the other person just bringing that up for everything making it impossible to have a discussion

[@dazza761]

@@JuliAuditore no because like I said it creates a caricature of the gender. u just have to look at the incel' chads and stacies to see this.

[@naskodra6302]

It feels like seeing in real time how someone warped their brain. The guy used the word exclusion in the normal sense when talking about Discord groups, then suddenly there was a need for some other word that he does not possess or care for when he smelled smoke, consciously or unconsciously.

[@GardenNomme]

This might be this most dominant debate destiny has ever had. This is a masterclass

[@gunbun3845]

42:19 funny how he gets triggered by destiny's example when he literally brought up differences in income between races earlier in the convo. When he had no argument he just resorted to virtue signaling.

[@Vradica]

I've never seen anyone this afraid of combining two different words

[@off6848]

It’s just technically wrong so frustrating. I hope you’re not the guy who gets on people for calling a hypothesis a theory because you’re doing the same thing. There is no toxic masculinity there is only masculinity which favors a certain set of neutral traits Bravery can become stupidity but a woman can be toxically stupid too so what is toxic masculinity?? It’s not even a thing it’s like saying toxic purple ness

[@Vradica]

@@off6848 It's really not.. Even if the word is neutral by it's core, it can be tainted.. In fact, you could say that about most words, that they are fundamentally neutral.. In any case, it's a stupid conversation that tries to distract from the subject.. Much like Vaush trying to argue that water in mexico is called Aqua.

[@D1rtyD3bra]

@@off6848You can have a masculine trait which is neutral. Then one can exhibit that trait in a neutral or negative (toxic) or positive way. If one engages in masculinity in a toxic way we would call that toxic masculinity

[@disobedienttiger6240]

Ha, I watched the MMA guy Ramsey Dewey have a 30-min meltdown about it, he was shaking with rage at the thought...

[@italianwaffle5592]

@@off6848 Trait part of common masculinity, trait taken to extreme, become toxic, masculinity of said person become toxic

[@BigDickDeluxe]

I love how his mic picks up every disgusting sound his mouth makes

[@dddaaa6965]

its funny because I saw a video not too long ago about him calling a lot of gain and bass boosted mics are cring, but now he's doing it, but it sounds disgusting because of the lisp lolol

[@hugeguns8038]

Despite having streamed for over a decade now, Destiny still doesn't know how to turn on an noise gate.

[@adrianbrodin1319]

God, can he not just heckin' eat *before* a debate

[@9itten2sleepy]

@@dddaaa6965 Real. I used to like watching him, but exactly this is whats making it hard for me now

[@Kallisto.0]

Has anyone noticed his constant throat congestion (sounds like vibrating) before answering a question.

[@zvk3059]

56:02 Destiny just had to say, “That’s toxic masculinity” after this. Would’ve been the perfect gotcha and way to end the debate

[@Randomusername822]

Gotcha? You arent smart for using a gotcha argument... its literally a manipulative way to make yourself appear smarter to the audience. Sad that you fall for that shit 😂

[@ATXAdventure]

Man, the dress argument was a very interesting take that does a fantastic job of personalizing another group's feelings.

[@bangarang3810]

Disagree. Destiny was trying to equate it but the examples juxtaposed failed to elucidate his point😊

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

If that dingus was any good at debating, he could have easily responded by saying that unlike girls wanting to game or get into STEM, I have no desire in wearing a dress. There's a lot of responses to that argument.

[@cadenceew7933]

@@ihsahnakerfeldt9280 Your argument doesn't work because 99% of women would immediately put on any dress that they owned, in exchange for the money. "Having no desire" is a copout, because any women in his position would instantly accept the offer. The only difference between him and most women is social pressure as there is no intrinsic, biological instinct saying "only women can wear dresses". That answer would be in 'bad faith" so to speak. Cheers.

[@kakyoin9688]

@@ihsahnakerfeldt9280not really because you can use that to counter anything the. “women don’t face any challenges in any fields because they choose what they want to choose.”

[@OlaAremu]

It's so sad that what it really comes down to is empathy. Or maybe even just sympathy. The inability and effective refusal to understand why it's so hard to overcome social pressures saddens me, deeply. There are so many people who think like that guy...

[@andreashofmann4556]

"If i was a lesbian trans woman i would just tell people to fuck off!" Sure you would, buddy.

[@guilhermedavitoria4346]

This debate in other words: Noooo! You can’t put an adjective before masculinity. In fact, masculinity and femininity are the only nouns which can’t take adjectives before them.

[@evadavis3149]

Trueeeee

[@crxyy6252]

Yeah he doesnt quite get the language :D

[@fensteroffen]

No, the argument is whether the toxicity is rooted in the masculinity or not. If you believe it, thats called sexism. Just replace masculinity with a race of your choosing and you get why this terms reinforce the toxicity instead of solving it.

[@HippieGodzilla]

​​@@fensteroffen Yes if you replace something in a sentence it changes the sentence and message of said sentence.

[@crxyy6252]

@@HippieGodzilla exactly! Im pretty sure thats where the misunderstanding comes from. In the debate as well as right now in the comments

[@michaelh13]

I love half-remembered Jordan Peterson talking points from 2016

[@TheNavid001]

Toxic femininity is definitely real and it is honestly annoying its never really talked about. The way women perceive their bodies and are way more likely to develop anorexia is toxic femininity. The way women expect men to court them and to "take a hint" rather than just be honest about their emotions and be straightforward is toxic. I feel like most men have a hard time dealing with toxic masculinity because feminism only ever talks about the ways masculinity is toxic and never shine a light on how patriarchy also makes femininity rather toxic.

[@the1stmetalhead]

Toxic femininity (TF) also includes reputation destruction, fake charges, wanting to be pampered with gifts and wanting expensive wedding rings, etc. My only problem with feminism is that it never talks TF and only talks about TM. If only feminists talked more about how these traits are being used by women under the name of TF. A lot more guys would join feminism and would appreciate it.

[@Aliyaaaa]

I think the difference that feminism differentiates between masculinity and toxic masculinity. However the red pill simply sees the toxic femininity and addresses it as "general female behavior"

[@UntoTheDepths]

In other words "toxic femininity exists because of men" Congrats, you just figured out why many ppl hate feminism.

[@nathancasey7712]

The patriarchy also makes femininity toxic...

[@nova_supreme8390]

@@the1stmetalhead There is also the victim mentality where certain feminists brush off TF by saying that patriarchy did it and it is men's job to solve it because they caused it. They cannot be expected to be accountable for their behavior because the system is what makes them act that way and they are powerless to do anything but. To paraphrase Anita Sarkeesian: Women are not the opposing team to men in a game of soccer, they are the ball.

[@meteorwalkergg]

the dress argument is so good

[@Aliyaaaa]

Thought so too😂 it was beautiful, yet the other side sadly didn't or couldn't understand how much it fit

[@kingonmax]

But it only works on these kind of people. I would happily wear a dress for 200 bucks

[@novinnovations4026]

Bruh, $300 for 8 hours in a dress? EZ money. This argument only works against a specific type of person imo

[@Aliyaaaa]

@@novinnovations4026 it should work against most people who underestimate how hard it is to go against societal norms

[@tammamayourmum4897]

no its not because 300$ for 8 hours is a shit offer i would do it for 700$+ easily

[@TheOneFromTheNorth]

"Sometimes things get overly Semantic" As he gets overly semantic on everything. The fact he obstructs his view so much to fit his beliefs is mind blowing

[@Era-lk1lo]

Not really I think when he said excluded everyone knew what he meant and it wasn't a little girl not making the basketball team.

[@luc.k7736]

Okay I was losing brain cells in the beginning but the “fighting your demons” line is a ducking assclap of a clap back to use every time these dialogue tree redpill robots use to try and Gish gallop.

[@Randomusername822]

You're part of the same fanbase that argues in favor of pedophilia and incest. If i were u i wouldnf be using intelligence as an insult

[@somejabroni51]

the female dress...........

[@LordKingler302]

I feel like this guy might have some good conversations in the future but it feels like with how fast he tries to jump on a point when destiny talks that he just has pre planned general responses and isn’t looking to actually have a conversation. It makes more sense that he fought so hard for his definition of a exclude early on as any change topples his ability to run down the points

[@Blueline3691]

He's a tiktok kid let him simmer 👨‍🍳

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

Nope. Not even close. This conversation was an incredible waste of time. This guy is not capable of conceding the most basic points. It was very unproductive and frustrating to listen to. I mean ffs, being this anal about the definition of _exclude_ and bogging down the entire discussion with semantics? Come on.

[@biglollol]

@@ihsahnakerfeldt9280 you sound incredibly stupid and just assume position of 'Destiny is right and the other guy is utterly retarded'. The guy made some good points but failed to narrow down the specifics. He should have argued that women are not excluded, might have more pressure to enter and ultimately might lack interest in, for example, professional gaming. This whole social pressure thing seems like a scapegoat argument that doesn't hold up in today's standards. Ay least, not in Europe. The guy went the right way, but failed to take the proper angle. Parts of this discussion should have been about interests other than exclusion and social pressure. Also funny how Destiny said he was being shoehorned, but 10 min later shoehorns the guy into "you won't wear a dress because social pressure" and assumes that (social pressure) to be the be all end all. If you can't see where the guy tried to lead his arguments to, you're just as stupid as you claim him to be.

[@nighthawk2548]

This guy is the definition of a bad faith bot lmao. Destiny was absolutely correct in what he said and it should be painfully obvious that the person he's talking to is purposefully being disingenuous in order to push his narrative.

[@himuragoXD]

51:06 the burn of a lifetime 😅 hope he can be introspective about this later

[@downtown991]

Its not toxic masculinity, it's masculine toxicity

[@lazedreamor2318]

HOLY FUCK YES

[@nicolebesser3548]

Now that is a much better way of putting it.

[@bearimo2867]

I feel like he just misunderstood the term as Toxic masculinity means masculinity*is* toxic. Whereas most of us understand it as Destiny said, there can be positive and negative masculinity, and the negative masculinity at its worst we call toxic.

[@skoomaenjoyer9582]

Unfortunately it seems this guy spends a lot of time debating tiktokers, so his idea of the term and its uses is warped.

[@hangedfox9286]

@@skoomaenjoyer9582 I think there's something to be said for the idea that, because so many normies use toxic masculinity in this meaningless way, using the actual academic definition for this kind of argument becomes a motte and bailey. The word toxic should be excised from the public discourse in general. It doesn't mean "kinda bad lol," the same thing happened to it that happened to "traumatic," "ptsd," "depression," et al.

[@brianmeen2158]

Is there positive and negative femininity? I honestly find this topic to be a bit dumb

[@malbasedvalentine3210]

No, because that not at all how it’s presented as. The original concept of toxic masculinity was to point out the subjective flaws feminists saw in men. That is why is was characterized towards masculinity, and never fairly towards women. If you wanted to make the argument in the way Destiny views it, then it would be ‘certain undesirable traits founded in men that come off rather aggressive/intimidating. And you can explain them and MOST IMPORTANTLY claim that this is no way trying to demean men as a whole, and that these traits can also be consist with women as well. But unfortunately 2016 was full of man hating feminist types who mingled with Marxism. The major problem with this whole ‘toxic masculinity’ debate, is that many women chose to view it as objectively fact, when it should been posed as a question based off of one’s opinion.

[@TheFreshTrumpet]

@@brianmeen2158 ​ ​ i definitely think femininity can be toxic, my gender studies prof once described toxic femininity as “abusive exploitation of femininity & upholding harmful versions of femininity.” so like, making a false accusation against your bf because you’re a woman and you know some ppl will believe you for that alone, or bullying a girl Mean Girls style for not being feminine and thin enough which kickstarts an eating disorder. most examples are gonna circle around upholding a patriarchal standard of femininity aka upholding patriarchy, but that POV loses a lot of ppl and feminist rhetoric has to evolve to better adapt to that imo

[@chaseyork3131]

This dude is something. He just doesn't see why he won't wear the dress. I'm so glad I got out of those circles. Lol

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

People like these run through life operating on autopilot mode. It's clear that he rarely gives his passionately held beliefs any actually serious thought.

[@monkeybudge]

I think he just came up with the thought “no one ever says toxic femininity” and thought it was so cool and original, so just refused to let it go. Even though that idea is of course well known and well criticised, it just doesn’t get criticised under the tag “toxic femininity”.

[@ihsahnakerfeldt9280]

Exactly. A movement being biased doesn't mean toxic femininity doesn't exist.

[@Alexlinnk]

Thank you for uploading these conversations

[@SeeMeRot]

The Wearing a dress in public with the Punisher logo part is prime content.

[@SmartDave60]

Permission to treat the witness as hostile your honor!

[@kaiblast]

MAN! TELEPORT THIS FOOL OUT OF HERE!

[@FondestAlloy56]

Awe, man, I remember being this person when I first got into arguments

[@TurntReynolds]

Destiny Finds Himself In A Frustrating Chess Match Against A Pigeon

[@lexqqy4032]

I have heard toxic femininity, the problem is that a lot of people don't spend time in those spaces. When a mother smother their child by doing things like obsessing over their male child and competing against their daughter, people call this toxic femininity. The problem is that these case are more difficult to notice in society.

[@Spice.Melange]

No its because we have made it a deplorable thing to blame or criticise women for anything. Its not difficult to notice at all. Its just not called out loudly because youll just get called a misogynist.

[@lexqqy4032]

@@Spice.Melange nobody is stopping you from calling it out. The women that I follow are always pointing it out.

[@DavidJones-ot8qu]

@@lexqqy4032 can u name a few ? i never see this by any large figures, and whenever it happens, it inevitably loops back to being the fault of men or a man

[@lexqqy4032]

@@DavidJones-ot8qu Well that's my point, you are waiting for large figures to tell you things that small creators are already saying. You are not in the spaces where these things are talked about openly. I have a particular person in mind, but I don't think you will like her content because as much as she says things about women, she is ten times more aggressive on men and she talks more about reality tv

[@DavidJones-ot8qu]

@@lexqqy4032 i don’t mind ppl being critical about men given that the points are salient, i just also tend to find that most of the points are driven by vitriol, and not an actual want for betterment. i would be open though, definitely

[@shaggygoatboy1125]

"Toxic masculinity" strikes me as a deeply sexist and ideologically driven way of framing behaviour. Even if you coneeded that some behaviours are more common in one sex rather than the other, there is no behaviour that is exclusive to men or exclusive to women. Let's use race for comparison: imagine you're walking down a street with a friend, a black guy runs up to you, pulls out a knife, robs you both and runs away. As he's running away, your friend screams "Typical black guy!". Now, is that comment racist? Yes. Why? Just because a black person robbed you, it doesn't mean criminal behaviour is an inherently black trait, and it's deeply racist to imply otherwise. Same logic applies to sex: just because some men exhibit traits you can label as "toxic", it doesn't mean those traits are inherently masculine, and it's deeply sexist to imply otherwise. The "logic" that fuels the discourse around toxic masculinity, is the EXACT SAME logic that fuels racist prejudice around specific ethnicities: group guilt judgement. The fact that Destiny seems blind to this, is mind boggling to me. You want to tackle toxicity? Then talk of "toxic behaviour". Each individual is different and has unique background. The moment you start attaching communuty labels to these traits, you immediately fall into identity politics and spiral down into the never ending hate factory that is group tribalism (which leads to the ever increasing fragmentation and lack of unity that even Destiny admits to be getting quite bad on a vast scale).

[@BlankExpressi0n]

I truly admire Steven's ability to continue the conversation after the first 20mins and then even longer as the stupidity flows. I had to close the video after 28mins out of sheer frustration.

[@nickchivers9029]

So a regular Destiny video then.

[@kjk607]

So he believes that there are specific positive male and female traits but he doesn't believe in specific negative male and female traits? Negative traits just traits?

[@megax5000]

This kid is literally the Patrick wallet meme come to life

[@MintVolcano]

“It’s not social pressure I’m just not part of that community” is a pretty hilarious thing to say. There are fast balls flying past this guy all over the place.

[@nerdydude4278]

the social pressures discussion was painfully funny to listen to ngl

[@kiibaxi]

Man i missed these convos.

[@rachetgear]

good conversation

[@sarkscion6271]

is destiny really going to die on the hill of "oh well there arent words for toxic femininity or positive masculinity but we see it in movies" for a reason why keeping the term toxic masculinity is fine?

[@jimmyneutron2322]

exactly, if academy isn't using either of those terms and it's only toxic masculinity which is being focused on then we should just drop them.

[@EnoYaka]

I think it also ignores all the damage using a term like this causes. It has pushed people further away from the left or feminist ideas.. not helped build it.

[@drabking9070]

I enjoy when destiny debates tiktokers

[@skoomaenjoyer9582]

Me too

[@Scapeonomics]

Except when you realize how many teenagers are hoovering this crap up and orienting their lives around it....

[@lolm4ker994]

5 minutes in and you can already tell how the debate is going to turn out

[@jackbender3688]

The punisher logo comment brought me to tears

[@GoldilocksDoesThat]

"I'm fighting a demon right now" 😂

[@louisgalarza8222]

This made my head hurt 🤕

[@autumneagle]

A lot of people saying this guy makes no sense or is talking in circles he really isn't. It's a hyper fixation on the words toxic and masculinity and overlooking his fundamental point that these words are being used as a bludgeon against traditional male things and men at large. My understanding of his point is that toxic people are toxic, masculine or feminine, both are bad but only one of them has an entire movement against it. Destiny's reference to late 90s pop movies about catty "mean girls" lands flat here because it was never used as a paintbrush for actions all women do but instead what a few individual girls do which reinforces the guys point about individuality. There is no real discussion about feminity and trying to dissect all the terrible things that come from it, just masculinity.

[@drawingpower1]

I understood where is was coming from where we were only talking about one group's short comings and not another, but (me being an individualist and I'm guessing him as well) why should he care? If someone complained about my problems. I would just learn and not point fingers at someone else's problem. And secondly, I am going to bite the bullet extremely hard so if you cringe at this I complete understand, but we do have a movement dissenting negative female traits. Its called the redpill. They aren't doing the best job at it and there isn't a punch term for it yet ( like toxic masculinity) but it is talked about.

[@KKris10]

I feel there’s too many people who read stats and have no life experience - then make conclusions that only make sense to people who are online too much

[@brian1436]

This guy most likely lives in a small traditional very white town.

[@peterranney9488]

This guy is an example of when virtue ethics goes too far. It is actually refreshing to see, because Destiny doesn't have a good vocabulary for dealing with this type of argument. He is learning how to discuss this in real time, and trying to find the most persuasive lines.

[@Iamawesomenorly]

if by "learning how to discuss this in real time" is your way of saying "he has to think of a slightly different way to say the exact same thing over and over", sure

[@doda508]

no destiny has done this before he just looks like a dumbass in this conversation cuz he refuses to just simply his points further and walk the guy through it, instead he just repeats the same thing and when the guy is too dumb to make the connection , he dosnt explain the connection more simply .

[@off6848]

Virtue ethics gone too far is hard to imagine because one of the principle tenants is temperament Bravery gone too far is stupidity Things like that are baked into it. There’s a difference between virtue ethics and puritanical hypocrites

[@peterranney9488]

@@Iamawesomenorly I meant he has to find the most rhetorically effective way of stating the same information, not he has to learn what his world view of the argument is. This is very different than most of his content, where he has a relatively set way of replying to certain points.

[@Jobe-13]

The debate was hilarious

[@mattfrosty8775]

"Look I'll go find the law" LMAOO good shot at the end destiny

[@GringleTV]

Destiny told August not to upload this but he still did. GIGACHAD

[@carlstevenson709]

9:45 it's called the Red Pill 🤣

[@yumiarigama]

Right 😂

[@mrpotatoh]

All these numbers and he chose 0 IQ

[@junk1308]

"Female dress", it's not a female dress. There's no law barring males from wearing dresses.

[@zestylem0n]

It's so fun to see the mental gymnastics these people go through to have the right intuitive answers to Destiny's hypotheticals and then vehemently deny the logical conclusions drawn from them.

[@DrJD123]

He totally told on himself getting so triggered by the dress thing hahah. You would TOTALLY *if you where smart* say you'd do it for 50 even if you wouldn't because its soo obvious where that hypothetical was leading... The fact the he just flat out refused and bought up drag queens just shows how redpill rotted the poor dudes brain is.

[@skoomaenjoyer9582]

I thought i’d say “yeah” at first, then thought about it some more lmao. Unlucky guy got caught good in that one

[@off6848]

No you’re slow. The only thing that matters is that if he WANTED to wear a dress he would DESPITE it being socially awkward he’s not excluded from wearing a dress he just doesn’t want

[@jdjenk04]

​@@off6848 He didn't want to because of the social pressure and stigma associated with a guy wearing a dress. That's a free $50 to just put on a piece of clothing for a single day and walk around strangers that would never see you again. You would literally just make $50 for doing something so insignificant.

[@off6848]

@@jdjenk04 no he didn’t want because he didn’t want to. If you offer me $50 to eat a bug I’m not going to do it because I simply don’t feel like it. If he really wants to wear a dress and doesn’t then you would have an argument but right now you don’t

[@jdjenk04]

@@off6848 He didn't want to because of the social pressure. His only rebuttal was he's "not a crossdresser or drag queen" but then within 30 seconds admitted that wearing a dress 1 time for 8 hours of a single day while being being paid to do so doesn't make you a crossdresser. He really tried hard to not say, "I don't want to be made fun of or laughed at" which is fine but that's the social pressure and stigma that he's saying isn't a hindrance on women.

[@ericsonofjohn9384]

I think the way to get through to him is to refer to behaviours, not traits. 1. Men and women are predisposed to certain different behaviours. 2. Some of those behaviours are good, and some are bad. 3. The behaviours that are bad are considered “toxic”.

[@himuragoXD]

I think he would still be stuck imo

[@fifiadan]

Who is the authority on what is bad behaviour? In a masculine society resilience is treated as very positive. In a feminine society resilience is a tool used to convince men not to share feelings. So it clearly just reflects the culture and era and not any objective fact.

[@SmartDave60]

@@fifiadan it’s bad when it does harm.

[@D.S.handle]

“But the behaviors are neutral, it’s these men and women that are bad.”

[@fifiadan]

@@SmartDave60 Harm is subjective one mans harm is another mans ideal. Example - China ban effeminate males, the west promotes effeminate males. Pretending you have the objective universal understanding on ‘harm’ is arrogance of the highest order.

[@Atom_007]

The dress analogy is GOLD 💪

[@josephschmitt733]

“I don’t want to talk about semantics” during a debate that is entirely reliant upon semantics.

[@commoncure3335]

This makes me feel like we're back in 2015 again

[@chrisalexthomas]

Damn! This guy argued himself into a corner and beat himself up with his own experience.

[@phoboskittym8500]

Exclude : to prevent or restrict the entrance of : to bar from participation, consideration, or inclusion : to expel or bar especially from a place or position previously occupied -Merriam Webster

[@Clopez-up5se]

THE FUCKING PUNISHER LOGO ON THE DRESS GOT ME😅😂

[@mitloppas3559]

22:15 Steven just finished giving the BEST, most PERFECT, entirely UNDERSTANDABLE example I’ve ever seen in my life. I have not watched the response yet. I want to guess. “But Destiny, I’m saying that masculinity just is. It can’t be positive or negative inherently. Also, we’ve been down the weeds on this. Let’s have the viewers decide who’s right.” I’m calling it. Cowards who are too afraid to tackle the substance talk like this. Edit: Nah, he shadow boxed someone who wasn’t even in the call. How many times does Steven have to say “masculinity is not toxic, but parts of it can become toxic.” ??? This mofo wants to argue with ppl who aren’t in the call. I hate it.

[@macromunji]

37:46 he gets so mad he can't hide it lol

[@backwardsdracula]

This was painful

[@thesheton123]

Bruh, this is the Patrick license meme.

[@Big-Papa-Smurf]

Interesting how they are only willing to associate positive traits with gender. How can something be both inherently positive and neutral? Why do they only associate positive traits with gender? There's a term for that, it's called positivity bias. The only reason we can identify one thing as being distinct from another is based on how it relates to another thing. When I say "The stove is hot". I'm really saying, "The stove is hot in relation to everything else around me". When we say that something is "neutral", that doesn't mean it's _inherently_ neutral. Neutrality only exists with respect to something else. So when we say gender is "neutral", we mean that with respect to *morality.* That doesn't mean that certain immoral actions can't be influenced by specific gender norms.

[@mharris4264]

Destiny actually crushed him with that dress hypothetical I'm shocked.

[@davidgeraghty3693]

Yeah, I don't get why he wouldn't bite the bullet in principle. He could certainly counter that $50 was too low and demand STEM wages.

[@jakedemo4590]

All he had to say was "my hourly rate for wearing a dress is far higher than you offered, and it's not worth my time until you can match my hourly pay rate for an entire full day's worth of work for wearing a dress." But, this guy wouldn't wear the dress at all, because he's too weak. Fuck. I'd wear a dress for a full day for 63 dollars an hour for 24 hours. In fact, fuck yeah, someone gimme that dress and pay. You can even call me a cross dresser for it and walk around behind me with a sign saying "look at this guy, he wears dresses!" It seems way easier than actually working.

[@zetram01]

@@davidgeraghty3693 That be a pretty dumb response, and still cedes the point that he doesn't want to do it due to social pressure.

[@Uber_scorpion]

No it was a weak point and one of the dumbest arguments I have seen destiny make. It doesn't compare to women who wants to play video games, but don't do it because of social pressure, to this guy who doesn't want to wear the dress in the first place. If he was closeted crossdresser who didn't do it because of social pressure, then the argument would make sense. But he never had desire to wear a dress in the first place unlike those women in the hypotethical who 'wants' to play video games, but feel excluded.

[@mharris4264]

​​​@@Uber_scorpion it was good because Destiny said many women don't work in STEM because of social pressure. The strang man believe they're weak minded and should get over it because there is atleast a financial incentive. Destiny challenges the man to where a dress for pay. The man says, I'm not wearing a FEMALE dress becuase I am a MAN, I was raised CHRISTIAN, I'm not part of the CROSSEDRESSER community. (Literally listing social pressures). I honestly think he was planted just to make Destiny look smarter.

[@ray2005]

When I heard “debating on TikTok”, I saw the shit storm coming

[@dinnyskips]

Toxic masculinity as a term fucking sucks. A gendered trait of men might be a higher proclivity to violence, aggression, etc. which can probably be correlated to testosterone levels. Toxic masculinity would be that trait manifesting in specific ways: like a higher rate of suicide, violence towards other people, etc.

[@D.S.handle]

Agree. Using this term gets an automatic rejection from a part of the audience. In the modern age where a lot of people are very cautious with their terminology, trying to not offend anyone, using people first language etc, keeping to use this term seems especially strange. It would have been better if it was even called something like “toxic testosterone manifestation”, or something. Although in this case obviously it would not include the toxic societal expectations for the gender.

[@markrutte5637]

Academics have already established that the term is harmful

[@ironmaiden93ofangmar]

Just adding to your comment, Toxic Masculinity as a term sucks because it gives a negative connotation to masculinity. It doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic in and of itself, but it does give a negative perception of it.

[@brianmeen2158]

Agree. I honestly think this term has already caused more damage than us discussing it ad nauseum has helped. Young guys today are so confused and I listen to them and I just want to shake my head at various things in the culture

[@nickchivers9029]

​@@D.S.handle Or, alternatively, we could call it being a shitty man.

[@aguy9071]

Toxic masculinity exists, it’s just extremely over used and mislabeled. The way men deal with each other will be labeled toxic simply because women don’t behave that way. Ex. Men tend to isolate and seek solutions when they encounter hardships. This is labeled toxic because they don’t talk it out like women

[@austin_bennett]

It's frustrating because I'm sympathetic to his original talking point that toxic masculinity is being overblown, like everything's being lables as toxic, & nobody brings up toxic femininity. The problem is he wants to reject the term so bad that it causes the dilemma of "ok so you're saying there's no differences between men & women" even comedians like Louis C.K that comment on this discrepancy acknowledge that "ya we guys are our own unique thing"

[@off6848]

He’s not though.. He’s saying all traits are in all people but men and women express certain traits more over others. That is correct and makes it technically wrong to say something is toxic masculinity

[@austin_bennett]

@@off6848 sure there's universal traits that men & women share like being a care giver isn't specifically a woman trait BUT even within that men & women have subtle differences with their parenting; even the most red pilled traditionalists agree with this (assuming they're parents). The problem is, and it could have been poorly expressed, but the way he explained it came off as "there's no differences between men & women" he could have then said "no there's obvious differences but there's some universal traits" which there are universal toxic traits. The problem is there's also gender specific ones but because the internet has poisoned him into equate toxic masculinity with the far left he's desperate to distance himself from using that term. I don't even necessarily disagree that the terms become cringe due to over saturation & how its only being expressed by one side but it's still a thing

[@off6848]

@@austin_bennett I don’t care about cringe I’m concerned with an incorrect word being used. Saying toxic masculinity is like when people say theory when they’re talking about a hypothesis at best. It’s just technically wrong. I’ll prove it. Give me one of these traits specific to men you’re talking about

[@henrytep8884]

You need Wittgenstein in your life. You’re playing a word game like how Plato or Aristotle wanted to define what a chair is, but that’s impossible because it’s a game and not an absolute objective definition. But for you the real question is do you believe that men and women are biologically different and if so how? Do you think the biological differences are expressed in their behavior? At the same time do you think these biological differences are so great that they create preferences that we categorize in certain behaviors and traits based off gender? I’m trying to help you define the rules of your language so that everyone can be clear on what you mean.

[@austin_bennett]

@@off6848 I'm kinda curious what theory you think is actually a hypothesis but sure I'll not only give you a specific example for men but I'll also give a shared toxic trait. Stoicism was brought up & while I think stoicism isn't inherently bad but on the extreme end with the rise of male suicide, something Jordan Peterson & many others are talking about, men should have the ability to talk about shit & help process their shit without feeling weak or a failure for getting help. There's also shared traits that aren't inherently bad, like competitiveness, but can be taken to the extreme. In women this could be competitiveness socially, which would be the catty behavior described in the clip, in men it could be being a bad sport by getting into a fist fight about a game. In this case men tend to be physically / competitively combative whereas women tend to be socially / emotionally combative. When expressed properly the same male could use his competitiveness to potentially be top of their sport or hone in on their niche that they do well in, those lessons & skills learned (socially & physically) can be used in various aspects of life.

[@zer0nix]

I fucking love this. Please never stop debating these hilarious people!

[@kwk111]

It's pretty weird to say that toxic traits are never masculine or feminine, but then saying "nurturing is feminine" and so on. The same line of logic would be "there's no good masculinity or femininity, people are just good"

[@garitobee7541]

I love listening to Destiny, his points are so great and really make me rethink my positions that I’m like “you know I really don’t have a good answer for that” or “I never thought of it that way”.

[@OMAR-vk9pi]

Doesn’t make it necessarily true though

[@DrStrangelove_]

Regardless of who comes out on top of this debate there is no solution, it is just useless talking. No amount of social construct will ever overcome human nature.

[@fifiadan]

Not according to progressives. To them it is in fact possible to create the ideal human through social engineering. They’ve been at it for 80 years.

[@wabbitseason80085]

The problem is figuring out what human nature is. People assume that where we are now is reflective of human nature when that could not be the case.

[@MonolithStudiosMelbourne]

Holy shit that “wear a dress” comparison was actually amazing dude … nothing funnier than watching someone talk the talk who can’t walk the cat walk!

[@buttmunchmcnugget328]

This was wild, i feel dizzy...

[@madjarov42]

The line of argumentation that this dude should have taken is this: Yes, there are toxic traits that are heavily male-skewed, like violence. But the problem is as soon as you point out #NotAllMen you get shouted down by the mob: "This is not about you!" etc. etc. And that's how ALL men get painted with the same brush. The same cannot be said about female toxic traits like cattiness. "Karen" always refers to an individual who is being *A* Karen (singular). She's always the exception; not the rule. But men are not only not treated as individuals when toxic masculinity comes up; any attempt at saying that exceptions exist to the (opposite) rule. To put it in contrast, here's what the two terms imply: Karen: "Women are mostly fine, but this one is toxic." Nobody would have a problem with this. Toxic masculinity (in its defensible formulation): "There are toxic male traits, but not all men have them." How dare you invalidate the female experience 1 in 5 Forbes 500 69% thigh gap

[@D.S.handle]

Have you watched the whole video?

[@z144p]

Destinys insuline resistance to the can of coke he drank won this debate

[@phillycezaarr9963]

Right but they say those things to get them mad, usually ppl will say whatever is going to trigger you online

[@shang0h]

fun when they talk themselves into a corner of 'I just HAte this word!!'

[@spsawyer22]

This is kinda funny. For my 3000 level psychology class...I wore a dress out in public for a day and wrote about the experience. It was mid 2000s in GA. Surprisingly mixed results. Got some hate but also had a lot of drunk girls wanting to feel me up (and 1 or 2 dudes I had to turn down harshly)

[@ayeoneup7645]

3000 level class?

[@spsawyer22]

@@ayeoneup7645 aren't 3rd year classes 3k? Or is 300? It's been a while sadly since I was in school

[@ayeoneup7645]

@@spsawyer22 yes it’s 300 lol

[@spsawyer22]

@@ayeoneup7645 derp

[@HippieGodzilla]

I'm toxic especially after taco bell.

[@the1stmetalhead]

Want some sneakers?

[@HippieGodzilla]

​@@the1stmetalhead No way creep

[@kingonmax]

Toxic mescal-ility

[@champagne4bfast]

i'm at the 5 minute mark and i'm not sure how the point is not made and the convo over. let's stay tuned folks.

[@Semislavia]

This guy made me really confident about my prospects in finance 💯

[@lordsneed9418]

I'm pretty sure what the dude meant is that "toxic masculinity" is used to smear and associate masculinity in general as a toxic, bad thing. Most of the messaging about toxic masculinity labels masculine things which are net-positives or neutral as being toxic, for example they'll say that stoicism is toxic , when actually stoicism is beneficial in high-stakes environments or to increase orderliness in organisations . Or for example they'll pathologise healthy, normal male bonding which has always involved more banter and less talking about your feelings and emotions than female bonding and try to pressure males into socialising and bonding with each other the way females do , which is like trying to pressure a human child into not walking on two legs and only walking on 4 legs. Yes, you could probably do it if you punish and reward them hard enough, but you're going to cause much more negative side effects in doing so. Obviously there are behaviours which men do more than women which are bad or "toxic" and these have been historically recognised and labeled as things like being a cad, a brute , a rogue. But most of the "toxic masculinity" messaging goes way beyond this and either seeks to say that all masculinity is toxic, that there is nothing good about masculinity and there should be not gendered roles or male-typical behaviours because men and women should behave the same because all masculinity is born from the oppressive patriarchy or the toxic masculinity messaging seeks to say that the only benevolent or non-toxic way to be a man is to be very meek, effeminate, neutered, toothless like a kind of eunuch or male-feminist bugman.

[@frostdracohardstyle]

"when actually stoicism is beneficial in high-stakes environments or to increase orderliness in organisations" Stoicism is useful, but building your personality around it is toxic. Do you not get the difference?

[@tarfielarchelone2674]

Can I get a source for the stoic toxic thing?

[@lordsneed9418]

@@frostdracohardstyle that depends what you mean by stoicism and by "building your personality around it" , but sure stoicism could be understood and attempted in a way that's negative or counter-productive. However that's kind of besides the point since the effect of the toxic masculinity discourse isn't merely to make the extremely modest claim that certain behaviours that are more typical of males can sometimes be done in a negative way but to associate masculinity itself or very significant parts of masculinity that are actually net benefits as being toxic.

[@lordsneed9418]

@@tarfielarchelone2674 I can't remember where I first read it but it's an example of the typical kind of toxic masculinity discourse you see in online articles pushing that "progressive" message or social media influencers or leftist academics. for example : "Stoicism. A cornerstone idea of toxic masculinity is that showing emotion is weak and feminine." Webmd page on toxic masculinity " Orthodox stoicism comprised a set of principles that embodied features commonly used to describe “harmful masculinity”. " - imsmagazine

[@kingonmax]

Needed to use a non blue hair picture in the thumbnail because destiny hasn't smiled since he got his hair dyed

[@elioxd8886]

damn destiny is so smart these analogys are so good

[@SuperRayW]

in order to get angry for the right reasons, you first have to be capable of getting angry in general, and if you are capable of getting angry you will always have to work to control it when it occurs at inappropriate times

[@kevindavis3234]

Tell you what, I could go the rest of my life without ever hearing the word "toxic" again and be perfectly content.

[@markrutte5637]

Academics have already established the term toxic masculinity is more harmful than helpful

[@brianmeen2158]

I’ll add a few more terms I could do without Racist, bigot, narcissist, Trump, Covid, trans phobe ..

[@kevindavis3234]

@@brianmeen2158 Well, if we're going for the dream scenario here, I'd probably also want to add ADD, OCD, and PTSD to the list along with yours. But we might be asking for too much.

[@marcogianesello6083]

​@@kevindavis3234 Imma go with "problematic". Fucking twitter ruined it beyond repair

[@kevindavis3234]

@@marcogianesello6083 Oh, good one. Yep, that's gotta go.