Determinism vs Fatalism vs Predeterminism - Understanding the Determinism vs Free Will Discussion

Today’s video will explain the difference between determinism vs. fatalism vs. predeterminism. To correctly discuss the important question of determinism vs. free will, it’s essential first to understand different concepts of determinism in philosophy, so I’ll outline what each of these three means and the differences between them.
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0:00 Intro
0:20 Causal Determinism
1:00 Laplace's Demon
1:56 Predeterminism
2:21 Predeterminism vs Causal Determinism
3:01 Fatalism
3:20 Omniscience Fatalism
3:41 Logical Fatalism
4:13 Physical Fatalism
4:17 Are Any Correct?

[@justtimelass8131]

So much underated philosophy channel 😭😭

[@buscapee]

People can’t even control a strand of hair and think they have any say what goes on around them. You are a man on a boat in the middle saying you are in control because you can decide which oar to use

[@scottyfleming2203]

Respectfully, it doesn’t matter what you think or what I think, or what anyone else thinks. But we are given a book by God that tells us what he does, how he thinks and what he expects from us. I can’t find anywhere in the Bible that relates to determinism for us now in the United States in 2023. There sure is a lot in the Bible about Christ being predetermined, and the work of Christ being predetermined for those who believe in him. it also says a lot about in the Old Testament, the journey of Israel, and gods choice to choose Israel to bring forth his promise. But we are not Israel. The fullness of time has come to pass with Jesus Christ. Now all we have to do is believe and the Holy Spirit will lead us. But no where does it say anything that we’re pre-determined to do anything . Only that we are commanded to believe in Christ. That we are fully capable of believing or not. So I would implore you to dive into scripture. And every place that you see the word predetermined the words “in Christ “ appear. Because he is the only thing that was predetermined. As it states in Galatians four, we become heirs out of slavery once we believe and what happened in the fullness of time in Jesus Christ. God bless ! have a great Sunday! something to meditate on.

[@stephenlawrence4821]

If causal determinism is true everything is predetermined because the future we get to is the only physically possible future we can get to from the (distant) past. But as is explained in the video it might not be possible in principle to predict what that future will be. So what could be false if causal determinism is true is "predictive determinism", not "predeterminism".

[@inksword6029]

Great video! With our current knowledge i think it’s safe to say we either live in a world that is ruled by causal determinism or by pure chaos and randomness

[@inksword6029]

@@thotslayer9914 compatibilitism is fundamentally flawed

[@havenbastion]

Chaos is Ignorance, not indeterminance.

[@iwilldi]

Well it is the presence of both. You can causally explain your biological history but not explain your existence. But we don't have the language which follows the chaotic non-syntax. So chaos is our blind spot.

[@kevindavisjunior]

We all are following a linear timeline by force, we have preferences we DISCOVER throughout our lifetime, we are born into existence not by choice, we don’t have choice who we are or will be physically at brith, we are bound by space and time as well universal laws…. I believe we are like story book characters following a pre written script for all of our character arcs in the story of the history of the universe. Free will is an illusion and we get the hand we are dealt in the game of life. We are all destined.

[@brendakrieger7000]

Thanks💜 Subscribed!

[@walnoemispoyt5604]

Interesting video. The only critique I have is at the very beginning of the video where you have used circular reasoning to define determinism. When you are defining Causal Determinism you cannot use the word "determine" in the definition because that is exactly, to begin with, what you are trying to define. You need to build from the ground up what does it mean to be determined before you can talk about determinism.

[@mehrdad4788]

I choose, therefore, I exist.

[@Torrriate]

I have to disappoint y'all: There can't be a consistent functional difference with true application in reality between fatalism and determinism. Cause you can't know for sure what outcome stems from any action (you can never define outcomes, nor actions for that matter, concisely enough).

[@melvillebloom3838]

I totally agree!!! He even stated that one type of fatalism = causal determinism. If causal determinism is true then what your not-yet-born great granddaughter will eat for breakfast on Tuesday October 3rd 2098 is fixed, inevitable unavoidable. How do you persuade determinists that causal determinism is actually the same as fatalism.??

[@Gen_66]

​@@melvillebloom3838i think determinam does allow the causal events to be mixed with true randomness thus making the future essentially unpredictable whereas with fataliam it MUST happen in a certain way no matter what

[@MarvinMonroe]

I like this argument for Determinism. If I make a statement about the future, do you agree with me that it's either true or false? We don't know which, but the answer is definitely either "true" or "false" I'll say "by the year 2150, humans will have colonies on Mars" Is either "true" or "false" an acceptable reply to that statement? If you answer "yes, it is". Then you have just said that you think the future is determined It's a decent way to get a person to realize they believe the future is determined. BTW the future still isn't Predictable and therefore, for all intents and purposes, we have Free Will

[@roybecker492]

Good video. People often conflate causal determinism with fatalism. It's really annoying.

[@melvillebloom3838]

I think you missed his point one type of fatalism is PRECISELY causal determinism. There are three different types of fatalism. So Fatalism = Causal Determinism. That’s one definition.

[@MarvinMonroe]

Yes and also they conflate Determinism with Predictable. It's always going to perfectly predict the future. Our models would have be perfect. And that means they would have to contain models of themselves modeling themselves modeling themselves modeling themselves and so on. So our model would end up being slower than real time and therefore useless. Maybe we could end up with models which are 99.99999999999 correct but they'd never be 100% So even though the future is determined, for all intents and purposes we have Free Will since we can never predict the future perfectly

[@willi1397]

Thanks playa.

[@randywa]

Actually I heard that some recent studies in quantum mechanics show that some aspects the randomness of particles is actually predictable and controllable so predeterminism might be right after all or at least seems a bit more right cat the moment

[@thedeekabides]

It always has been, since before it had been.

[@tallsw7290]

You can only predict the wave function of a particle i believe but the collapse of the wavefunction is still probabilistic

[@Relaxdata]

@@tallsw7290 until it isn't

[@TheRobGuard]

What irks you is that logic tells you that determinism is the physical reality, yet everytime you make a choice you feel you actual have a free will. Can free will and determinism co-exist?

[@stellagyan541]

Nope. Free-will does not exist.

[@brendakrieger7000]

Good Question

[@Censeo]

In an interesting but curiously rare reflection, we can ask if our desires, priority and computation (weighing of options and our predictions) is what make us decide things. So it is kind of those things still, the mental reasoning, which could be said to determine what we want. In a sense we are free to do what we want, but it is all determined by what we are which determines what we want in the first place

[@zan6585]

I’m confused what the difference between causal determinism and Logical Fatalism. I’m confused.

[@JD-jl4yy]

It's really fascinating to me how believing in (causal) determinism doesn't really seem to change how people behave. We all still act as if free will exists, even when we're convinced there is no such thing... It seems free will is a very integral part of the human experience.

[@stephenlawrence4821]

What is it to act as if free will exists?? I don't experience having free will. I don't think anybody does.

[@JD-jl4yy]

@@stephenlawrence4821 You could become a gambling heroin addict deep in debt or lead a successful and satisfying life with good relationships with the people around you. Generally speaking, we all experience an urge to avoid the former and seek the latter. Not believing in free will doesn't change the reality of this urge, this force that makes us feel in control of our actions (even if it's only the small things when you feel you have no control over your life). I find it very hard to belief you don't experience any of this :)

[@stephenlawrence4821]

@@JD-jl4yy I do experience trying to avoid bad futures and get to good ones. That clearly is what we do. But if I'm causally determined to be a gambling heroin addict deep in debt then my attempts to avoid it will fail. That fits perfectly with what happens and with what choice making is like.

[@stephenlawrence4821]

@@JD-jl4yy It always helps to deal with a real example. My business which is mostly fixing bikes is hard work and not very profitable at all. I'm getting older and am feeling rather exhausted with it. I imagine a future with more of the same and it's not appealing. I have debts and there is a high chance I'll end up going bust. What can I do? I decide electric bikes is the answer. There is a boom in them at the moment and ways to make more money than repairing ordinary bikes. So I look for ways to get involved with electric bikes. I've found three I'm working on at the moment. If I've got this right the future will be much brighter. Time will tell. But it doesn't seem like I could do otherwise in the actual circumstances at all. The options I'm selecting are far more apoealing than the alternatives. So I assume things are just as they seem. I try to avoid bad stuff and get good stuff and in doing so the options I select are the only ones I can select in the actual circumstances.

[@JD-jl4yy]

@@stephenlawrence4821 Selecting the "only" optimal approach is still selecting a choice. As I'm sure you're aware, plenty of people end up making very not-optimal choices. If anything, it's something to be proud of that you're so good at selecting the optimal approach that you feel you have no free will! ;)

[@infinitedonuts]

For the algorithm!

[@Jewkiller618]

This basically makhalli gosala vs Pūraṇa Kassapa

[@cps_Zen_Run]

Hmm, I feel like I lacking the knowledge base and motivation to learn and understand all these labels. I better focus on something easier like organic chemistry. Peace.

[@ROMEL-E]

Kuya may nagkakagusto SAYO oh. Bigyan mo nga Ng isang bagsak. Para sumaya siya

[@davidverlaney7764]

We can determine all kinds of things and make all kinds of decisions That can play out in many different ways but in the end the outcome will always end up being the same. Meaningless vanity.

[@jamiedimond9419]

Geometrically PreCoded VR Inside ConCave cell earth. Dipole center

[@santirensonnet8016]

Love the channel! But I really have a problem with determinism here. If you are studying a random process (like a flip of a coin or a change in the quantum state of an electron) you can't predict the result (it's not predetermined) and you can't tell why happened (it's cause is unknown). My point is that in your argument you have to do a leap of faith and believe that "everything happens for a reason" (but we just don't know it yet) and that's debatible.

[@drDbsan]

Good luck 👍🏻🍀 lol

[@timtebowfan628]

I think universal laws is the same as omniscent fatalism. Its the universe not GOD that dertermines things.

[@nil981]

Free will does not exist. Predeterminism is relative. The universe is strictly deterministic.

[@jonathanjollimore7156]

Looks like we can bury Fatalism and Predeterminism that is nice

[@stephenlawrence4821]

Well fatalism isn't true in any negative sense. But it is true in the sense it's not just which options you have which are fated but also which one you select. How could you do otherwise?