Dev Diary 15 - Trade and Logistics

[@PPAChao]

What about rivers? They were (and, where available, often still are) the main arteries of trade & transport. During the industrial revolution, too, the same technology that enabled trains also enabled engine-powered barges, or barges drawn upriver by little railroads following the river's course.

[@jenHry-ng3pw]

Please upvote this. River transportation is the most efficient means of moving goods on land. This must be in the game!

[@elpepequinteros1716]

Piensen que no ven que le está diciendo

[@Hugebull]

@@jenHry-ng3pw Fun fact: The difference in cost between river transport and transportation in a geography such as the interior of Africa and South America is 80 times. Not 80%. Not Eight times. 80 times. This is why the United States is THE superpower. The Mississippi River System has more interconnected navigable waterways than the rest of the world combined. With the Erie Canal (completed 1825) they connected New York to the interior waterway system. You can get on a boat in New York and you can stay on it all the way to Montana. Then to Colorado. Then down to New Orleans and connect with the whole world. All connected into a single waterway network. Compare this to Europe. Where you have a bunch of good rivers, but they all run into the ocean. Creating independent geographies, not a single unified economic geography. And Russia. Those poor sods. Many of their grand rivers flow straight up north into the North pole.

[@dimas3829]

@@Hugebull Yeah, there's a reason Kiev was the second Russian capital and it was that it was built neraby pretty good Dniepr river to use in trade.

[@benismann]

@@Hugebull siberian rivers still were used when conquering and trading with it back in the days, while major european rivers were used for varangian to greek trade route (which kind of fell off when romans started to die real hard, but still), and i bet played a big role in unification of russia and in keeping all that stuff together.

[@max__pain]

This game is looking better with every dev diary release.

[@Hugebull]

I am glad they got a scribe from the 1600s to work on their game. Keep it up.

[@jodadami]

Connecting provinces should also account for rivers, and maybe canals. For example, maybe landlocked countries could use rivers to get sea access for international trade, or maybe if you don’t have railroads or roads then you could use rivers or connect your provinces to the market center

[@vidyaorszag]

Rivers could act as pre-existing and permanent roads honestly.

[@smham828]

I,m sure most important mechanisms are already in place , and there are just some ideas : 1) If a landlocked country, got access to sea via another country, that country should get something in return, like 5% tariff. 2) exporter country must have enough naval capacity (unless having a trade agreement) and importer country must have enough dockyard capacity. 3) a unit of goods , require a certain capacity of the ships ( moving a unit of canoon must be more expensive that moving a unit of clothes) so the cost of exporting or importing goods , differ from each other. 4) tech must change the size of ships and capacity of docyards and lowers the cost of shipping per unit . 5) changes in part (4) shouldn't be over night ,it must take time and resources. To do that , we need a building like trade company, wich owns ships and shipping costs , goes to their revenue. With tech, if they are profitable, they should start to upgrade their ships. 6) for simplifying calculations , we should ignore that palyer needs to pay full price of ships , if they are not full. It,s just a number that adds to costs of exported goods or goods from overseas colonies.

[@Mr.Fresh20]

The game look so complex and amazing, a great compeeter to paradox games, i hope that in some moment in future localizations for other languages like portuguese! I grant to you, brazil have a great consumer market of strategy games and it is growing year after year, good luck for the game, i will buy when this launched.

[@Enigma89]

I am so ready for this

[@xModerax]

1. Great narrator 2. Shut up and take my money, building railway on map ❤

[@PraetorianHiJynx]

Really liking the economic system! Particularly happy to see that goods can be stockpiled and then sold to flood the market :D

[@winzyl9546]

Finally, a paradox competitor.

[@ds2sofs]

Don't jinx it, let's see after release how it pans out

[@michaelcook6288]

Im soooooooooooooo glad youtube recommended me to this. Im looking forward to this game and any other future development.

[@jackeinessontjader5291]

The only question remaining is: What about nationalizing industries?

[@loudradialem5233]

About the national stockpile, consider to allow the player to destroy it. During the 1930 financial crash, some countries bought and destroyed a few of the goods their citizens produced to stimulate the economy. For example, Brazil bought its own coffee and burned it to raise the price back, because coffee was the backbone of its economy.

[@FishwicksREAL]

GREEK EVENT CHAIN!!! looks good. Only suggestion I'd have is minor map fixes, specifically to display rivers.

[@dimas3829]

good luck on your project.

[@yorgenibnstrangle3072]

I'm so impressed. I can't wait for this game to come out

[@iustin223]

Just this part of the game alone makes it 10x cooler than vik3 ever would be. Also,I hope there is a way to make certain industries gouvernmental run...Like as Belgium,I could make coffee plantations government run,I get all the profits,not the plantion owners.

[@Hugebull]

This is made by a small and inexperienced studio. But, having said that. What they do have going for them, is intent. And that alone makes me excited. Paradox has entirely lost their way. Not in graphics or their engine, but in what intent they have for their game. Paradox does not fail with geography or historical accuracy because they happen to make mistakes, they fail because accuracy and facts plays no role in their company or products anymore. The intent alone is why I am looking forward to this game. Because even a smaller game made by a smaller team, is going to provide a game that tries to be good. And that, I applaud. Compared to Victoria 3, which is a game that is overly designed to be a game that is to be sold on the market for money.

[@iustin223]

@@Hugebull exactly my thoughts! Vik2 was rushed and paradox was a small team back then and now it's still one of the best grand strategies out there... I hate the fact that they broke my heart with vik3

[@aquilainteractive]

Thanks for your comment! You can own industries as well, and profit from selling their produce. You just don't manage the buying and selling of resources to the Market directly (aside from your National Reserves). We’ll go into more detail on this in a future Dev Diary, as well.

[@iustin223]

So you tell me...I can roleplay as Russia and make myself rich by directly owning vodka factories?It would be the best thing ever! Also i am looking forward to becoming a merchantman next week!@@aquilainteractive

[@inquerion8867]

@@iustin223Victoria 2 was made by ~10 people in 9 months. It's crazy how they managed to make such good (but unpolished on release) game in such limited time.

[@thoronirgros188]

Cool stuff. Keep things simple but flavorful and it'll be good.

[@swagysnoop5248]

wow looks better alr then a certain other game. i cant wait to actually build a railway NETWORK that was important during these times. YOU CAN SET TARRIFS WITH SLIDERS???? holy crap this is revolutionary, We have reserves?? man a certain company be throwing fr

[@swagysnoop5248]

and the trade is actually important and dynamic holy moly

[@iustin223]

I hope that you can make one or two industries of your chosing run by your government...Let`s say you own the coffee plantations so now you make the profits directly from them

[@benismann]

@@iustin223yea government-run industries are extremely important, hope they add it in some way

[@FizCap]

Victoria 2 had a lot of these features to, they were just dumbed down or removed in Victoria 3 for whatever reason

[@StenKilla]

This and Portraits DD got me to back you on kickstarter. Good luck and cant wait to play! :))

[@Old_Harry7]

Since this is still a work in progress, do you think there could be room to have more than one economic center in your country? I know this might be taxing but it would make for a more realistic and complex system. Let's take Italy for example, Rome is the capital and the economic center of the country but to have another economic center let's say in Genoa to cover the north and in Palermo to cover the south would make for a more realistic goods distribution and also not break your country when the capital is under siege of its port blockaded.

[@ShadowDragon1848]

Looks really nice! Will canals play a role too? Next to railroads they were on of the main drivers of the new infrastructure build during the industrial revolution. Are all polices able to set tariffs? Free-Trade is famously about no tariffs, but even GB, who was famously pro Free-Trade set tariffs for German goods. Sure, Free-Trade should not allow high tariffs (or give a penalty if you set them high), but I think it should not completely disallow them. Oh and how quickly can you change your center? You said if the center is occupied during war, all provinces count as disconnected, so it would be nice to know if it´s like changing your trade capital in EU 4 with a long time in between and a high cost.

[@aquilainteractive]

Our design has technical support for canals, and in our early designs, we did include them. However, having canals, roads, and rails all on the map makes things look rather complicated, and too many things will end up running in parallel. How to handle their intersections also creates a lot of issues. We decided to not include the ability to draw canals freely. However, we will still include strategically important canals like Suez in some way.

[@ShadowDragon1848]

@@aquilainteractive Hmmm fair.

[@Hugebull]

@@aquilainteractive I hope the Erie Canal is there as well. As it connects New York to the insanity that is the Mississippi River System.

[@mendora5547]

Spreadsheet.... So beautiful

[@bartolomebirlouez7477]

For diplomatic gameplay, there's something that seems fundamental to me: there should be a crisis system, where crises arise and players have to position themselves, a bit like in Victoria 2. Players alone shouldn't be the only drivers of diplomatic action, there should also be incontrollable elements that drive the situation forward. Especially when you look at the 19th century, where there was imperialism, but also resistance to that imperialism. A game where only diplomacy is in the player's hands would only allow imperialism to express itself, and would end up being a very static game. What's more, the crises of the 19th century led to the establishment of a rudimentary but nonetheless solid system of governance, with summits: a form of gameplay that could be very interesting to play.

[@caisam6621]

Looks so nice

[@dogukan127]

I hope your work inspires the developmen of Vicky 3 and vice versa * graet to see this period and economics getting some good attention in games

[@WaterZer0]

Apologies if you've already covered this in another video, but warfare in a lot of games especially paradox titles is way way way too transparent. You can just open someone's screen and see exactly what they have which is insane; half of warfare is making sure the enemy doesn't know what you have. You should need a serious espionage program if you want *any* information on what they have much less a crystal ball. Looking forward to seeing what you have planned!

[@lucasfeijo61]

Regarding the game's economy, will there be multiple currencies? It would be very interesting, as there would be inflation, deflation, valuation, devaluation and among others, this would create strong and weak currencies that would influence the trade world

[@whynotsa6866]

I feel like that will be too complex for normal players. because now they have to look at 3 different screens all the time. I think its fine to have a gold standard currency instead for now. maybe implemented in a future cold war mod.

[@ds2sofs]

Bloat with calculation would be so hard to overcome performance wise I doubt it honestly

[@ivanbro1208]

Nationalization and different currencies would be perfect

[@TJ-to1ce]

This is an admittedly Norway-centric thing to bring up, but it would be great if the game allowed for economic niches around shipping. Specifically, the idea that you can not only provide a different nation with the boats and resources needed to transport goods, but effectively be the one who owns the boats that many nations use for their trade. This could open up some interesting avenues of gameplay where big nations would have an interest in protecting shipping, but have a trade-off in that this also aids other nations using the same "middle man". At the same time this makes sense, for maritime shipping, how would traders from landlocked nations have the sailors or expertise to manage shipping companies? In game this would give small nations with favorable geography something to do that isn't trying to compete with great powers for raw production.

[@benismann]

8:10 I think that's something that should be done automatically. Or at the very least you should get a suggestion of what's the best spot to put it at. Since thinking about where to put your economic centre while at war sounds very distracting. 8:40 and this. Im pretty sure i dont have to tell you this, but there really should be an alert or something about disconnected provinces, or at least an alert for when one becomes disconnected. 9:30 And there definitely should be a map for market access.

[@cathar1209]

Guys, guys... attention to the portuguese flag in 1822... it wasn't the current one (republic)... I know it's still w.i.p., but other correct flags are already in, so, pay attention.

[@wachtwoord5796]

Ah damn it 😂 I really hoped you figured out a way to implement the system you described before.

[@josephstroud5149]

So there are roads and railways, but what about canals? We don't think about it as much today but in the 1800s canals were a key part of any developed nation's logistics network

[@aquilainteractive]

Our design has technical support for canals, and in our early designs, we did include them. However, having canals, roads, and rails all on the map makes things look rather complicated, and too many things will end up running in parallel. How to handle their intersections also creates a lot of issues. We decided to not include the ability to draw canals freely. However, we will still include strategically important canals like Suez in some way.

[@dima9171]

Nice. Waiting for a more detailed dd on combat though :D and edpecially naval combat.

[@martinlisitsata]

im looking at the reward charts and something sticks out for me , why is the last tier gets music but no in game music but no head and suit ?

[@KaiserWellington]

I hope this becomes the true successor to Victoria 2.

[@krzysztofkozowicz9830]

I know I'm extremely late to the party but I'm not too sure that a single international market is the way to go because of all the different distances ( which is also a huge issue in Vic3 where it's abstracted with market acces and local prices in single market + convoy upkeep ). How will long distance trade be handled? Shipping something from the other side of the globe shouldn't have same 10% loss rate as getting something from neighboring country. Do national markets also have loss rates for long distance shipping? Also flat 90% just for having railway doesn't seem right when rivers + sea transport was the main deal for freight. I think it should depend on rail technology so the focus will remain on river/sea transport where possible and rail used for what can't be supplied with it. Is there some limit on how much a single port/road/railroad can transport?

[@ethankirsch9786]

Does the screen shown include all goods in the game? If not, please see if you can shrink down the UI until every good is visible without scrolling. Checking on the economy and goods availability should start as an “at a glance” task. We all know Vic 2 is the good comparison most of the time, and it works best to find out about goods shortages from red pie charts or the unemployment notification, THEN check trade; the worst is when I don’t realize that my military is missing something because the comprehensive trade list is confusing and the military goods supply is only visible on mouseover. In fact, would it be too much to have some indicator of net goods availability for all sectors? So economic strata, + army, navy, and any other good-consuming actors? Like “poor pops could access 87% of goods they wanted,” then you can go nose around for more info.

[@benismann]

if shrinking it as it is is really not an option it should be just icons and prob satisfaction percentage, and everything else revealed after mousing over it

[@thelocoshabab]

Is there inflation represented in the game? I was wondering this in the part where you talk about the base price of goods and how if the price goes too far above it then pops may forgo buying it. If there were inflation over time, then I imagine that pops should eventually tolerate higher and higher prices?

[@AntonioZL]

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I hope we get some sort of financial market as well, where citizens can lend to governments (and maybe even other citizens?), both national and foreign, which is not only very representative for the period, but also adds another layer to diplomacy and politics, by forcing you to take into consideration the assets owned by your population and their interests, giving you the option to actively work on protecting them through foreign interventions, such as forcing a repayment of defaulted debt, and other more agressive diplomatic tools.

[@inquerion8867]

I hope that this game is not a big scam. Sometimes it looks too good to be true... Lot's of "concept mockups" and art, but very few actual fully working gameplay systems were shown so far. Since they want our money (Kickstarter), they should at least release some demo or show actual gameplay, even if it's unfinished/unpolished at this stage.

[@jakegordon1575]

I am going to cry if my 20 dollars were for naught.

[@JokerDR71]

There are no 3d portraits right?

[@zondor8123]

It would be better if you could sponsors more content creators such as One Bavarian + Ludi to get more traction within the community 👍

[@Ted52]

When will there be an opportunity to a sequence of gameplay?

[@FishwicksREAL]

Appears a closed beta will open in September.

[@saulboulin]

This all looks great! Just one question, you might've said this in a dev dairy but I dont remember, do you plan to implement multiplayer in the game or are you focusing on singleplayer? Btw I know you are focusing on other aspects of the game a custom cursor would look cool! 👍

[@FishwicksREAL]

The biggest question!!!

[@daelraelra2289]

Guys, the depth is good, as I would like to manage the economy, but put something like advisors who make decisions based on how good they are and get paid automatically, so that this doesn't become micromanagement hell. This is even better than events, like putting an advisor who has to make some difficult decisions and ask you which decision is best. As I am the prime minister who coordinates my ministers this is also not as boring as having advisors who just give bonuses, but actually do something and feel real since you can interact with them.

[@aquilainteractive]

Generally the market will take care of itself and find new equilibrium over time when there are changes to supply and demand. Our philosophy is the options are there for you if you want finer controls to influence the market. However, you are not required to do so in order for the game to progress.

[@airfluxe2095]

Will thw game be available for Mac users?

[@JokerDR71]

When is release date?

[@polatpolatcan4749]

Will there be presets for rail and roads? I can see it becoming tedious after the first time.

[@christianhoej1562]

Did I see a Prussian Bornholm of all things or is the island part of Denmark as it should be?

[@frite2002]

The 10, 30, 100% trade modifiers for unconnected, road, railway feel a little arbitrary to me. I'd prefer pops having "jobs" to transport resources. Without trains however it takes many people to move same amount of goods. Those people require food and goods etc, which then inflates the price of the good they're transporting

[@joeljose78]

I have one question and please answer it. I really want to know... Can you form Super Germany?

[@Nichtzukennen]

Am I obligated to build the roads? Isn't there a system like capitalists in vic2?

[@Heito686]

Hey just make the game playable unlike paradox games who are laggy as hell, the game looks great by the way.

[@technoincubus1736]

It is ages and aeons better than what Victoria 3 parody of an UI vomits at us.

[@ds2sofs]

Will you be working closely with the most well known names in the community to possibly balance the game? I think One Proud Bavarian and Generalist Gaming would be a big help in bridging the gap between developers and the community in terms of quality control and polishing. Also please for the love of God don't make the game only fun if you're playing as a superpower, THAT game made it so and it's such a disappointment, rags to riches is such a fun way to play economic/political simulators I hope it will be a viable way to experience what Gilded Destiny offers to the fullest. Also, a quick question (maybe it was answered in a dev diary and I forgot, apologies) but will there be an option to release nations? I'd love to play as Congress Poland and reunite old Commonwealth lands.

[@TheLordAndSaviourJesus]

SPREADSHEET GAMING

[@hogcranker35]

Victoria 3 but actually, you know, good?

[@Sodden316]

nice

[@honoriscausadignitas]

Date of release? Rus language? Ty!

[@epicnesssss]

The alpha releases in either April or May. And I believe it comes with Russian translation.

[@heisenheisen9483]

Johann shaking his head in shame

[@inquerion8867]

Johan didn't make Victoria 3. Wiz (and his team did). Johan actually wanted to make proper Victoria 2 sequel, but PDX leadership prefered Wiz's version. Johan is now making EU5 (codename Project Caesar). ETA 2025-2027.

[@WaterZer0]

Well, if EU5 is anything like the I:R makeover, I might actually play it. Don't get me wrong; I have many hours in EU4, but it's about as deep as a puddle.

[@Alistar608]

oooooo this will be the game where i have min 1k hours, I WANT IT NOW!!!! (take your time and make it best victorian strategy game)

[@GM4ThePeople]

John, just use bitmap math brah, vs. processing everything inside of collections of objects. Let the elements of the "economic actor" objects point to locations in current & historical collections of bitmaps. Way better processing, & you still keep the usability of your OO framework. Trade processing _should_ be obscene, to model the "no free lunch" evolutionary system with consequences, winners & losers, that is the real economy. Please attempt a pleasing abstraction of reality. Another pretty game with ugly mechanics that doesn't play well? We don't need it. But you guys could still be special. GL&HF, G.M. o/

[@sepukkuz]

The UI is shockingly terrible...

[@inquerion8867]

"Concept mockup" on the below right. We don't know how UI really looks and works. Which is worrisome at this stage of development...

[@bastard-took-the-name-I-had]

Oh boy I sure hope buying order isn't organized by some arbitrary rank like in a certain old game which happened to tackle the same time period

[@Miran-wi6wm]

Relise data?

[@zondor8123]

It would be better if you could sponsors more content creators such as One Bavarian + Ludi to get more traction within the community 👍