Developing with Undiluted Rodinal

[@EricJ2190]

70% alcohol is a more effective disinfectant than 99% because the added water helps it pass through cell membranes. Perhaps something similar happens here with Rodinal, where the added water helps it soak into the emulsion.

[@atticdarkroom]

That's what I was thinking until I developed it in a tank. Maybe it has something to do with the volume of chemistry? Not sure.

[@andrewbroekhuijsen6770]

@@atticdarkroom This was my thought too - the water helps it have more "effective surface area" or whatever compared to undiluted syrup. I wonder if the extra/better agitation you get with the film on a spool and in a tank was just better at overcoming the viscosity problem than tray development was capable of. Dunno though, just taking shots in the dark. Next video is undiluted Rodinal Trichrome I assume? Edit: oh jeez you beat me to my own Trichrome joke. This is what I get for commenting at 7:28.

[@mjfan653]

@@atticdarkroom rrodinal should be an inhibiting developer if I remember correctly, as in, as it develops film the highly developed parts start to get hindered by the already developed silver (o maybe some chemical component, or both), as it starts to slow the reaction between the rest of undeveloped silver and developer. this helps developement times be longer (its sometimes better to go long, as it gives more control and safety), and the developed film has more grayscales, not just black and white. edit: this is also why the big roll got fried, i think. because more agitation and developer means the exhausted developer gets swished away more, and uninhibited developer gets in contact with the film, making for much stronger developer than sitting in a tray... sometimes developers get differrent times for machines or dipping or tray. I do wonder what iso could be got if using delta 3200, orr tmax3200 and long dev times tho. as its iso1000 at the start, with some light and a good lens, might get something up to 12800 or 25000sth...

[@stafan102938]

Having found myself wondering why we use 70% ethanol for disinfectant I actually found the reason given for it in an old cell culture textbook was that the added water slows down how fast it evaporates when it's sprayed on surfaces, so it has more time to disinfect. Not really relevant but just thought I'd share as I've heard a bunch of different reasons given for it but that one seems the most sensible to me.

[@salamander405]

I was just thinking that

[@KiinaSu]

Finally I have some usage for the 4000L of Rodinal I dumped into my heating oil tank. Plus I can develop my film faster than a Polaroid. Win win situation.

[@ale_s45]

Now we need to see what 1+1000 Rodinal developed for 12 days looks like

[@atticdarkroom]

🤔

[@janmelantu7490]

I think you’ll need a Jobo for that

[@user-le8ul4nr5t]

@@janmelantu7490 At 1+1000, you would be well within stand development territory, so just letting it sit for a few days without agitations would probably work fine.

[@alfepalfe]

Yeah but I believe one roll of 35mm film uses about 3ml of rodinal to develop. This means that at 1:1000 you would need 3 liters of water to get the minimum amount of rodinal for one roll of 35mm film. Oh and you need that amount of solution in the tank for every roll so for 2 rolls you would need 6 liters in one tank.

[@studiosnch]

I remember once that a famous photographer (dunno their name) sometimes developed their films on 1+1000 Rodinal and just puts it in their fridge for a week. Just so we know, the rule of thumb for Rodinal development is that 4 mL is the least amount of stock Rodinal that you need to use when developing one roll of 35mm or one roll of 120 film (for 1+100 that means 4 mL Rodinal for 400 mL water).

[@JamieMPhoto]

Rawdinal: For the intransigent and impatient film shooter who doesn't accept that digital is faster for assignment work. Print that negative wet and you might beat the digital file out of the printer.

[@atticdarkroom]

That is an incredible idea. Hmmmm....

[@JamieMPhoto]

@@atticdarkroom This is like when they raced a person against a horse or something ...

[@GregoryVeizades]

Get a wet mount negative holder carrier. Problem solved.

[@arachnenet2244]

Rawdinal is going to be the next big thing! Perfect for those everyday "develop film in 20 seconds or you are dead" situations!

[@atticdarkroom]

You'd be surprised how often that happens.

[@areallyrealisticguyd4333]

Someone within 150 years of Rodinals existence must've asked the the question, what if I didn't dilute this? Now there's an answer

[@alfepalfe]

Someone within those 150 years has probably tried it too but now someone has done it and posted the results on the internet.

[@psajgal]

Some of these look like my grandpa's negatives. Where he would take black and white negatives and just dunk them in random chemistry. Sometimes he'd get these weird yellow chemical stains on them as well. I did not expect you to get a usable result from undiluted r09 tho, kinda amazed it actually worked. Thanks for the video as always, you're answering the questions we all wondered but were too sane to try out ourselves.

[@atticdarkroom]

I was surprised it actually worked at all. Honestly I was happy with the crappy tray development results. This was just the cherry on top.

[@user-dr3vb9fp8b]

haha

[@jaywhangmakes]

Babe, wake up! Attic dropped a new video.

[@ilikecereal156]

The best part of the month has arrived

[@ronen_khazin]

I used to do stock Dektol at 35c for 30 seconds to develop Tri-X. That technique used to be used for doing speed dev for photo finishes for horse races. It's very contrasty and dense but definitely efficient.

[@atticdarkroom]

That's wild. It never occurred to me that such fast development actually had any utility. Now I know!

[@ronen_khazin]

@@atticdarkroom It's mentioned in an article about a pretty insane lens, the Canon 300mm 1.8. If you search for that lens you'll find the article but I'll copy the relevant bit here: "The lens is used for “strip, or slit, photography,” Anderson tells PetaPixel. “With this system we can record up to 10,000 ‘strips’ or lines per second. That is how I came to work with this lens. I started doing photo finishes in 1986.” “Back then it was done with filmstrip or timing negative film,” he continues. “I would develop immediately after the race it would take about 8 seconds using dektol at 140 degrees and dip and dunk by hand. When digital took over film things became so much more advanced and so did the lenses.”"

[@atticdarkroom]

That was an interesting read. And I thought the 200mm f1.8 was a monster. Photo finish photography is something I never even thought about. The whole process sounds so interesting. I gotta look into it. Thanks!

[@Purp1eP3nguinZ]

@@ronen_khazin glad to see you beat me here Also this proves it IS possible to use pure rodinal in a dip & dunk processor

[@ronen_khazin]

@@Purp1eP3nguinZ oh hey! Yeah totally possible but you gotta have some serious pumps to replenish it. That, or you can add sodium sulfite or something like that but then that'll radically change the activity curve, but I think if you're doing 11 second dev, that won't be a massive change.

[@marcusjochum]

yes, another thing I was wondering about tested by the mad scientist we all look up to!

[@kellerborges5068]

That's why I like Rodinal (and those home brewing versions), the high dilution makes it very versatile in terms of time and temperature tolerance

[@ZachACameraGuy]

Guys this is it! 10-second per roll sounds like a dream come true 🤯 thank you for your hard work sir!

[@SinaFarhat]

You mad man! Undiluted rodinal!! Thanks for answering questions I didn't ask! :)

[@danielnewton2390]

This reminds me of the experiments I did in college with my friends. We were bored in our intro photo class shooting b+w film and just started pulling things out of the dark room trash can. The random mixing of chemicals and paper resulted in some cool abstract images.

[@flyingo]

Your experimental film developing exploits are great! I’m sure that many many people who develop their own film owe you a generous helping of “thank yous” for making the mistakes and blasting through chemistry like you’ve done so well. So I’ll start with one thank you..!

[@BGRestore]

"But it's cool to know you *could* do it" is the perfect conclusion to reach, Hahaha. Keep up the excellent work, you make some of my favorite videos!

[@markerzy]

Oh my god i was just thinking of this yesterday, you absolute madman

[@tef_ebooks]

I feel better about having developed HP5 in Rodinal 1 to 12ish. My results came out a lot more contrasty, almost like I'd pushed the film. I was expecting to see your results go from "Stand developed and thin negatives" to "Highly concentrated and dense negatives" but maybe you just made better wild guesses on timing than I did. I still got no idea why the tray developed ones didn't develop as fast, but maybe it's something bla-bla-blah about being submerged, or the initial agitation of pouring the rodinal in. Who knows. Either way, this is perfectly timed. I just spent the last week trying to unconvince someone to try super-concentrated rodinal, and now their curiosity is satisfied.

[@thefilmhacker4998]

the reason there were high dilutions and longer times are because rodinal doesn't develop highlights and shadows at the same rate. longer development allows for all of the highs and lows to fully develop. which I think is what you figured out here. the original patent for rodinal also lists a simple para aminophenol developer which you dilute 1 to 4 and develops in about 3 to 4 minutes. that is the b&w developer I use.

[@bchoward0000]

I'm ashamed I hadn't wondered this sooner. Love the casual trichrome. Keep up the great work!

[@Hanlane4962]

Thanks!

[@atticdarkroom]

Thank you. I really appreciate it!

[@Mayankgupta0809]

I was thinking about how acids need a little water to start doing "acidic stuff" and that Rodinal might be similar, but then idk why the tank development worked.

[@atticdarkroom]

That's what I was leaning towards too. Then it just worked. I'm still confused.

[@studiosnch]

Though 4-aminophenol (Rodinal's active compound) is slightly acidic, Rodinal is basic like all developers (thanks to the presence of potassium or sodium hydroxide, the latter is basically lye or drain cleaner).

[@TheLastDacian]

Love it. All abord the Rodinal Express

[@brunof1996]

Now I kinda want to see homeopathic Rodinal

[@LaViejaConsolada]

xDDD The viscosity of the chemical is messing with you. Of course is way more efficient 1:1, because of the lower viscosity of the working solution that it's able to "get thru". You're a mad lad and we love you.

[@Enpamonhado]

Doctor: "You only have 10 seconds to live" Me:

[@gurhanpekuz1813]

Thank you so much for great video and your time !!!

[@AeromaticXD]

Those end results are cool!

[@SilntObsvr]

Oxidation from the large surface area relative to volume in a tray is a large part of the difference between a tray and the same time in a tank. Your unevenness in the tank is because your fill time is probably 60% of your total development time (plus whatever part of the strip is on the bottom when you tip the tank to pour out the developer gets a similar amount of extra time, too). You might find this works better if you can drop the reel into the pre-filled tank in the dark, then pull it out and drop it into a second tank of stop bath. That would surely reduce the unevenness, potentially at the cost of other issues...

[@atticdarkroom]

That's a variable I haven't considered. It might be worth revisiting at another time.

[@franciszkaninspodglogowa]

these smudges look sick love your videos

[@derwanka]

Great work! It helps to understand how it all works. Thanks.

[@SeeMick1]

It makes me think you could get some really interesting experimental results by painting a negative with really high-concentration rodinal and a paintbrush.

[@atticdarkroom]

I've messed around with brushing on developer, but never with undiluted Rodinal. That's a good idea.

[@SeeMick1]

@@atticdarkroom If you used something like orthochromatic 4x5 film you could probably do it by eye a certain amount if you worked under safelight. I guess 120 would work too, but 4x5 would make it easier to see what you're doing, and work on one image at a time. Might have to investigate further

[@omskiydove6285]

Awesome video as always! Developing in 1:2 can help with "204 800 iso project" :) What do you think about diong some crazy things with cinema film like kodak vision 3?

[@atticdarkroom]

I've barely touched cinema film. I need to pick up a proper ECN2 kit and mess around with it.

[@michaelrapp4413]

Loved to see this although I never intend to try it! Learning something from each crazy development video. I am actually going to try to get something out of cross pros Crossing Ilford xp2 soon. Thanks for the inspiration as always! 💪

[@ale_s45]

Amazing experiment

[@AleksUsovich]

Rodinal is the only developer that I use and always wish there was a quicker way to develop that 1:25 especially for StreetPan or Berlin 400. I'm gonna have to give the 1:8 a try since it seems like a great combination. If only there was a way to speed up fixing, or drying- and especially scanning

[@dooterino]

Seems like a good basis for a roller-based dev box or something

[@atticdarkroom]

That's a good idea. Times like this makes me wish I was a mechanical engineer.

[@BriManeely]

You're a mad genius

[@theoldfilmbloke]

HALLO from a WET and GREY BRENTWOOD, Essex ENGLAND !! Just FOUND your Channel and LOVE your Experiments ( and the American ACCENT-- got any Gum Chum ? ) I have a similar channel for film stuff and a few Piano Playing episodes !! I subscribed as I want to watch your Video on the Old VERICOLOR as I have some of the SAME in Fridge !! Keep Snapping -- Peter

[@studiosnch]

Hey there Grandpa Peter! Nice to see you!

[@danko6582]

I've developed with Dektol, chasing grain. I recommend not wasting a whole roll in one go. Also, try dialing it in with ortho. You may not be able to see the unfixed image well, but at least you can work with the red light on.

[@tonyzhu403]

That is a lot of cost… Maybe not the most expensive development ever, but I think it is up there.

[@atticdarkroom]

Rodinal went from one of the most economical developers to one of the most expensive very quickly.

[@tonyzhu403]

@@atticdarkroom for science. Hope more people find your channel, for me, it satisfies more than curiosity.

[@danem2215]

D76 is like $10 a bag at B&H. Been using it for 12 years exclusively.

[@xander1052]

the true speedrunning of developing.

[@ofeykalakar1]

If you graph acceptable dilutions vs time and draw a line or curve, you might be able to interpolate a time for the stock Rodinal. It will be a hypothetical time but would be interesting to see if’s close to your empirical results.

[@victorobeid1982]

Do you pre wach the film before you develop? I like the way you think and experiment with film. Keep going nice work .

[@danwongphoto]

pretty sure the water, even at higher developer ratios, is the thing that gives you an even development. Nothing in the water per se, but its viscosity helps spread the chemistry over the film evenly, rather than a thick syrup?

[@Bintaro35]

pemberani dan tangguh

[@Chase-vd4ow]

I can't wait to develop all 20 rolls I have in Rawdinal and actually be done in under an hour.

[@stylestep111]

Awesome, love your content

[@vimerveilles]

The hero the film photo comm didnt know we needed. You should work with labearatorie for the peak experimental film experience.

[@MichaelCarter]

I am also in the U.S. and cannot buy either Rodinal anymore, so I make it myself to develop 3378 16mm movie film as negative.

[@AirsoftAbominations]

just an FYI but 1 to 100 is actually 3 ml of water to 300 ml of water... not an issue at high dilutions but 1 to 2 for example mixes to a total of 3 not 2

[@plestj]

What film did you use in this video? Sorry if I missed if you mentioned it in your video. I am going to start using Rodinal for the first time soon so your video was very interesting. Thanks!

[@atticdarkroom]

Ilford HP5

[@AMTunLimited]

I'm guessing the straight rodinal didn't work because it's too viscus to really move around the film, so it depleted what was right next to the surface and just stopped

[@Chris-xf5og]

Have you tried developing with Cafenol?

[@atticdarkroom]

Not yet, but it's something I've been meaning to do for a while.

[@Chris-xf5og]

@@atticdarkroom i really look forward to the video!

[@roycevanbeethoven]

Wait I'm a little confused. When you said you shot HP5 at "box speed," why was it indicated as ISO 400? 😏

[@atticdarkroom]

Oh god, I can't imagine what the development time ISO 5 would be.

[@janmelantu7490]

@@atticdarkroom just a single dunk then stop & fix

[@FinnishSuperSomebody]

Nice video! This kind of videos would have been helpful for me to watch before I started developing my first black and white films, then I wouldn't have any kind of "fear" that I fail the process using wrong dilutions :D When I made my first film roll about a week ago, I was looking very carefully that I put correct amount of adonal (1:25), have correct times etc. and kind of feared that I might get blank film in the end of those values wrong. Well, after that I have developed 6 rolls more, changed to 1:50 after first two rolls and found out that well, those dilutions are not that much an issue if those are even about the correct amounts and times are correct :D Surely, for consistency and excepted results those are important, but if I only want "good enough" photos (eg. can see, can scan, no totally blank film) it does not matter that much and no need to worry about things at all :)

[@achimhaun2726]

Hi, awesome video as always! I know this is a bit off topic but I just wanted to ask you how you scan your film and if you could recommend the method or device you are using. Any tips or opinion would be helpful :)

[@atticdarkroom]

I have access to a Nortisu S-1800 which makes scanning bread-dead simple. Unfortunately accessible for everybody because those machines are about the same price as a nice used car. Otherwise I scan all my 35mm on a Nikon Super Coolscan 4000 and everything else on a Epson V800.

[@BarsMonster]

Do you pre-soak in water? It might make short developments more consistent...

[@time_to_waste]

Are you using a scanner or dslr scanning? It looks so detailed in super close-ups

[@Brenby]

I pushed HP5 to 12,800 one time in Caffenol. It took 40 minutes and the grain wasn't that terrible, because it was med format. That gets me thinking... how does one make large format a completely grainy mess? Underexpose by 6 stops and push development time by 3? Hmmmm... I might do some experimenting :D

[@atticdarkroom]

That sounds like a fun idea. Medium format was always the next logical step, but I never considered trying it with large format.

[@MiidnightMedia]

What about fix time? I’m still learning fix time. I use Adofix Rapid Fixer and sometimes I feel like it doesn’t too much. I do 6min

[@liucyrus22]

5:12 the water might be making up part of the chemistry itself and don’t just serve as a solvent. You might only have trace water in the undiluted run and this results in the low concentration of actually useable developer.

[@holdensoderstrom6495]

I’d be interested to know the costs of doing these videos. Keep up the good stuff

[@atticdarkroom]

More than I'd like that's for sure.

[@Kitsaplorax]

The lye is dissolving the gelatin. It will continue to eat it unless neutralized. That's like putting drain cleaner on your hands at 1:1 or 0 dilution.

[@atticdarkroom]

Hmm, now I wonder if I can develop in drain cleaner.

[@Kitsaplorax]

@@atticdarkroom If you mash Red Devil Lye with acetaminophen and sodium sulfite, yes. Then it is called Parodinal. Developed when Rodinal was unavailable for a year or two.

[@atticdarkroom]

Oh that sounds more legit. I was thinking about using Draino.

[@FTropper]

Of all your videos, this is the first where even I asked ask myself: but why would you ever want to do this?! 🙃

[@l33tl33p]

I think you need at least 5ml of Rodinal for it to actually be efective. Also, 1+100 doesn't mean 3ml + 297ml, instead it means 3ml + 300ml.

[@paulmaloney9303]

Have you tried the exact opposite of this by seeing how diluted Rodinal can be and still be effective?

[@ivan9066]

I recently got rodinal and to help me being lazy, 1+100 for an hour, holy crap HP5 looks like ass, maybe stock for 10s would help

[@lauriepops2783]

I kind of like the 30s 1:0 dilution. Def looks weird but its kind of artistic idk

[@edoardogamba6141]

Can you stop being based for a second? I once did 1+25 for 3 hours with foma 200 and the shadows where pushed to idk what iso lol

[@kzed0]

I like your photos

[@Mark-pz7bd]

IDK if you take idea submissions, but would love to see you try to do slides from negatives on Kodak 2383 mp print stock

[@atticdarkroom]

I'm always open to suggestions. I've been meaning to do a deeper dive on Kodak cinema film, and that's one more thing I can add to the list. Thanks!

[@JohnDoe-gj4rr]

Feels like the water acts as a medium

[@danko6582]

Hey, if you are going neat, why not chill it down to extend development time?

[@RobertBergan]

What area of Portland is that house with the red phone box.

[@atticdarkroom]

I don't remember exactly where, but I think it was around Boise-Eliot.

[@dogdive]

I saw the bridge and like, wait a minute!

[@francophone.]

What if you used undiluted Rodinal and boiling water together?

[@Photographyisadrug]

It was interesting to see that the ratio affected the Legos. 😅

[@gavinjenkins899]

Developer works by dissolving away halides that break from the silver salt. With no water available, there's nothing to dissolve them. With 300ml, whatasver small amount of water is in the tank might be enough where 75ml worth wasn't.

[@digitalcake]

Can you try developing film in dektol?

[@atticdarkroom]

Dektol keeps being brought up by a number of people. I've never used it before but after reading up on it I'm definitely interested.

[@GenerationAI2024]

You need atleast 5 ml of developer for one 35mm or one 120 film or 4 sheets 4x5. No less concentrated developer as 5 ml per film. And the developer has to be diluted as it needs the water. Thanks for sharing though, interesting info.

[@afish7984]

Did you ever cross processed a e6 slide film to black and white film?

[@atticdarkroom]

Not yet, it's definitely something I need to try.

[@afish7984]

@@atticdarkroom waiting for this.😆

[@janmelantu7490]

At this point, I’m not sure if this is torturing the film or the rodinal

[@atticdarkroom]

Why not both?

[@ilyaslastnikov]

cool lego figures :)

[@ulfosterberg1979]

Water is a part of the chemistry. No water give fogging

[@mbntr2363]

you've developed in boiling developer and it was fast, undiluted rodinal is also fast, how fast is fast + fast? try boiling undiluted rodinal

[@OllyHitchen]

Rawdinal! 😆

[@huneprut]

I'm sorry. But I feel the need to correct you on something that a lot of people get wrong. Rodinal is not 1 to 25 (1:25). It's 1 plus 25 (1+25) So 3ml of rodinal goes into 300ml of water. Not 297ml. 1:1 and 1+1 would be the same though. 😊

[@atticdarkroom]

I didn't even know there was a difference. I'll definitely correct that moving forward. Thanks.

[@huneprut]

@@atticdarkroom not a big difference at 1+100 but at 1+25 it can make quite the difference.

[@ksebring6904]

I like to use as concentrated developer as possible so I can waste as much money as possible.

[@Snaveltje12]

You have created privacy safe dark negatives. Would have been usefull during the cold war.

[@jacovanlith5082]

You are wrong on 1 : 100 The amount of a developer for a 135-36 film is 300 ml = 300 cc. A delution rate of 1 : 100 means 3 ml Rodinal and 300 ml water makes 303 ml one shot developer.

[@jayerjavec]

Did you tricolor it?

[@expgretaillegacy]

Do you still have the really old Rodinal?

[@atticdarkroom]

Yep. Used it a few weeks back. Still works.

[@expgretaillegacy]

@@atticdarkroom awesome!

[@MrRom92DAW]

Prediction: there will be grain Edit: there was grain

[@sandtroutsmuggler]

Now heat it up to 36C

[@atticdarkroom]

Can you have negative development times?

[@CrimsonCrime2234]

You know why undiluted rodino won’t work? Because when doing 1:0 you are dividing 1 by 0, which could create infinite universe and probably a black hole that will end the world. Some say the creation of digital camera is to prevent this from happening by removing the need to develop film completely. Sorry I just joking

[@atticdarkroom]

The math checks out. Can't argue with that.