The Philosophy of White Green - Selesnya | Definitive Duality

[@DiceTry]

So do you think Selesnya has the right idea, or are they missing something?

[@chimericpaladin35813]

as angels can be black, id like to see demons and warlocks who are white and green, and join the community of acceptance, maybe that would require the help of a third color, but id still love to see it, after all, even demons sometimes feel kinship, and love

[@DiceTry]

@chimericpaladin35813 I totally agree

[@edhelion4445]

It's actually a pretty good question. When I started to understand the color philosophy I was told that there was no such thing as Good and Evil, just differents points of view. But then, I discovered Selesnya and I felt just right. In my perspective, this is the color that we can qualify as "Good". I know it's a misconception, it's just that wotc didn't try to write a proper selesnya villain yet because it demands reflexion. I'd compare Selesnya with the colority I see as its main antagonist, rakdos. It's really easy to write a rakdos villain, so they do. I'm sure it's possible to put Selesnya in the role of the bad guy but it will require a real reflexion behind. Selesnya stay for me as the ideal color for an ideal society, yes we can put other color to this pair to see where the people want to go with this utopia but the core is the same. Selesnya is an utopia and the good ending of the civilisation. I'm proud to say that selesnya is my favorite color in magic.

[@Ctrooper2011]

​@@chimericpaladin35813 Of course angels can be Black. Those are called demons; this is why the alternative term for "demon" is "fallen angel".

[@evangrescol7772]

​@chimericpaladin35813 Falco Spara is a Bird Demon in Bant colors

[@Powershade117]

You definitely did a good job of covering what makes Green/White what it is. So not much to add there...except for when you look deeper into the color pair and see that despite it truly believing in acceptance, unity, and tradition, there is a dark side to Selesnya that I'm sure many have already pointed out; that near complete erosion of the self. What I mean by this is that Selesnya can at times be the most "cult-like" among the other pairs, just because of that need for like-minded individuals coming together to form a harmonious whole. To those within the society, they know nothing but peace and order...but can also be so blinded by what is offered that they cannot or will not see what it is like beyond their little circle. Outsiders looking in might see a fanatical group of extremists who shut out any outside thoughts that could threaten the perfect utopia they have created. And to Selesnya, any outsiders who wish to join mush put aside their own beliefs in service to the greater whole and traditions of the group. Now not to say that Selesnya is bad because of this, but it can be seen as an issue to those who view Selesnya from the outside...and this COMING from someone who is of the Selesnya mindset. I do believe that we are stronger together and common practices are what help bind us as one; reminding us of why we remain united regardless of any petty internal squabbles we might have. And finally...the last thing you do want to do is actively attack these communes of peace and order...because they will fight with the ferocity of a cornered animal to protect what they hold dear. Green and White are among the most passive colors in the game...until they are not. Poke the bear too many times or cause too much of a ruckus in the society, and these colors with lash out with a unified fury that cannot be matched! The first Spider-Man film comes to mind when a whole bunch of New Yorkers started hurling junk at the Green Goblin on the bridge when Spider-Man was trying to save the kids and Mary Jane. One man in that movie said it all that sums up Selesnya's response to threats in a nutshell... "You mess with one of us and you mess with ALL of us!"

[@TerryBradstreet]

You say that White/Green cannot see outside of its circle, but any White/Green community should be able to make peace with any other White/Green community, or any Green or White community. And it's not like Red is great at making peace with White and Blue, or Blue is great at making peace with Green or Red, or like Black is good at making peace with ITSELF -- Black decks are rife with internal conflict, to say nothing of two Black decks going at each other. And exactly what is outside of White/Green's circle? Nothing but destructive selfishness. While White and Green fundamentally disagree on whether God or Nature came first and thus deserves to be worshiped, Black rejects both God and Nature. Black seeks to replace God and take control of Nature, to break free of any higher power and avoid all consequences for pursing its desires. A Black follower places him or herself above and before anyone, and would only parasitize a Selesnyan community. Red rejects White's obedience to God and also doesn't really vibe with Green's concern for harmoniously perpetuating family and community. Red only cares about enjoying the present moment, regardless of the immediate destruction or the long-term consequences. Blue rejects Green's idea that nature is good and perfect, and also doesn't really vibe with White's desire to emulate divine virtue. Blue believes that it can learn more than even God, and that it can make something better than nature... and because it doesn't share Green's values of family or White's love for all individuals, Blue will experiment upon and sacrifice other people to achieve its goals.

[@KnightsofGaming2016]

As another Selesnya, I agree. I'm sorry if I missed if you covered this, but I'm also concerned of Selesnya if the White part of Selesnya were to use and twist the stance of balance in Green as a motivation to push their doctrine as well.

[@The_Loreseeker]

I think one of these days you need to sit down with some of the traditionally 'good' color pairs and examine how they function as antagonists.

[@DiceTry]

Yeah I've uncovered evil in mono colors but I def want to do the same with pairs.

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

​@@DiceTry Do good aswell! I think some colour combos like Dimir (just an example, not like I'm Dimir or anything, for suuuuuuuure) have got a pretty bad wrap.

[@TerryBradstreet]

I'd argue that White can only be a heroic antagonist in the way that Black seems capable only of being a villain protagonist. I quibbled with the "Horrors in Color" video against the idea that White represented a fear of being rendered helpless. Helplessness is central to fear, and thus part of all the others. Helpless against the eldritch might of Green's cosmic horrors. Helpless against Blue's warping of perception and self. Helpless against Red's violence. Helpless against Black's sadistic torture. White can't be dehumanizing or impersonalizing; by definition it is the Color of compassion, protection, empowerment, and healing for all individuals. THAT'S why other people fear White -- because it cares about the victims and protects them from villains. People fear White because of Accountability. They fear White handing down the punishment that they deserve, or of depriving them of the victims they need. BLACK is the color whose cards frequently evoke dungeons, torture chambers, abattoir, charnel houses, and slave galleries. Blue also has its share of human experimentation. Red burns villages to the ground to take slaves for the short-lived pleasure of the captors. It is a society controlled by Black that dehumanizes the populace, fostering cultural apathy and despair, industrializing suffering for the ruler's profit. Only, in Magic: The Gathering, you can't hide your Colors. But in the real world, tyrants prefer to wear a "White mask" to hide and justify their tyranny.

[@Number1masksfan]

@@TerryBradstreetI half disagree with you black is generally always a villain while white can be either depending on which aspects of it nature it leans into, a villain I could see in white is a self-righteous monarch who believes that they are the ultimate authority on what good and evil is, that is what happens when white ignores it healing nature and focus on it more righteous and disciplinary. It not that white is always moral but pure white will always think it is moral. White is an inflexible colour( if it has no pairing with other colours) it is a colour that will continue the way it is going when faced with new threats white will likely use the same tactics that work unless paired with another colour Now the isn’t to say that white is a common villain but saying that it will never be a villain is exaggerating. I am saying this as someone who considers themselves who is white leaning

[@JB-wc9cr]

The horror video about the colours was really good 👍

[@AegisAuras]

This script was beautiful. Well done.

[@DiceTry]

Thanks, if you ever want to read any of my scripts I post them all as articles over on dicetry.com

[@revanreborn7626]

Definitely appreciate you mentioning how Green’s innate spirituality merges with White’s religious values. Definitely shows off how green gets angels(well they’re dual colored but still) all the while giving creatures hexproof or counters(a green trait). Which gave me a vid idea or project. You did a video on Amonkhet, how death encompasses the plane and how every color addresses the concept. So I guess, if you were interested, could you take a look at Theros and see how each color takes a look at “Higher Powers”/Religion/Godhood?

[@TerryBradstreet]

White worships the creator. Green worships the creation. Red, Blue, and Black reject a creator and bargain with any created spirit or creature that offers them something they want. A White deity would either be the creator or an angel loyal to the creator. A creator might be Green. If the creator were Red or Black or Blue, it would feel no obligation to its creations; creatures would be toys, fuel, or experiments rather than children.

[@TerryBradstreet]

The fundamental difference between White and Green is the argument of which came first: God or Nature. White says that God came first and deliberately crafted Nature. Green says that Nature came first and blindly made God. Each of them thinks that the other is worshiping the creation rather than the creator. I don't know how Selesnya is supposed to resolve this disagreement. Crucially, they can't BOTH be right, and they can't BOTH be wrong. ONE of them has to be right, and thus superior to the other.

[@revanreborn7626]

@@TerryBradstreet oooh I love this ✊🏿

[@revanreborn7626]

@@TerryBradstreet so like… the chicken or the egg sort of argument? 🤔 or like “does the soul follow the body, or does the body follow the soul?”. I like this thought too. Either one of those you leaning towards between green and white’s view?

[@TerryBradstreet]

@@revanreborn7626 Aristotle mused about the Unmoved Mover long before the Greeks encountered Judaism. Logically, the law of cause and effect demands one exception: The First Effect, for which there can be no cause. Today, the Big Bang is thought to explain where all matter came from, but it doesn't actually. It only supposes that all matter once existed in a single point, but it doesn't explain *why* that matter exists, or when it first came into existence, or how. Or why space exists. For that matter, space and matter would have to come into existence at the exact same time, which would logically be when "time" itself begins. The first verse of scripture: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Time began at the moment that space and matter were created. Why can't White explain where God comes from? Because if God created time, that must mean God exists outside of time as much as he exists outside of space, and without a material form. No creature can compare to God because all creatures are material within time and space; the limited against the limitless. The natural against the supernatural. Even if Green expands its understanding of nature to revolve not around soil, plant, and beast, but instead around Time, Space, and Matter, it cannot go beyond that. Green cannot say that some part of Nature is Supernatural. It's a contradiction. The only explanation for the Supernatural is the Divine. The truly divine, a God above and beyond all pretender "gods". Furthermore, Green would have to run into the problem that this blind, automatic, impersonal, elemental, force of Supernature somehow includes MATH. Because humans didn't create math, they simply discovered it. You can see the supernatural existence of the Number 3 reflected in the physical world. The Number 3 cannot be changed or destroyed, only recognized.

[@rossf8616]

So happy to see this channel growing!

[@atibamaule]

This reminds me of what it takes to Create the Spirit Bomb in DBZ.

[@Nienna_Asyare]

I am *earlyyyy* xD I’m so excited to finally see my favorite colors!

[@DiceTry]

Well I hope this video is everything you wanted

[@Nienna_Asyare]

@@DiceTry I kept having to rewatch because I kept getting distracted lol, but yes! I hope you enjoyed making it!

[@SandauxBeats]

And then Black tagged along and teaches Selesnya that sacrificing thyself is both a form of selfessness and selfishness. And thus, Abzan was born. 😅 Seriously, thank you so much for this. I learned a lot and wanted to put some elements of your descriptions on the instrumental music track I'm working on that I choose the title as "Selesnya". It's my favorite color combination.

[@VultureXV]

Selesnya is what I want to be. Golgari is who I am. Mono-black is me at my core.

[@dekaw9138]

Abzan is fully developed you

[@caseygutierrez5349]

Beautiful. Informative, peaceful, and well executed. Thank you.

[@MariMari-mz8mp]

Fantastic video, looking really forward to the rest

[@matthewvandyk7773]

Green white my favorite color combination. Damn you hit a lot of core aspects that hold my religious faith and vaules. And on top of what you said, being out nature is where i feel the most connected with God. I honestly never really thought my that my own religious beliefs would or could effect my MTG game play. But i really enjoyed your breakdown of my favorite color combo.

[@KnightsofGaming2016]

This was a beautiful take on the Selesnya pairing. This might be from the White mana side of things, but the facts on spirituality, acceptance, community, and harmony just tugs at the feels. Love that agnosticism is also included in spirituality because most of the time, that's often seen as a Black mana thing as it opposes or questions the infallibility that White mana has going for them. I'm someone who's a bit of an agnostic despite having faith, so it's nice to be included alongside those who practice spirituality in that regard. Now, while I am a Selesnya, my only concern for this colour pairing is if White were to go overboard and push their doctrine to others and use Green's stance on balance as a motivation to push those doctrines to others.

[@lukyril]

1:02 Selfless Acceptance 3:58 Unity & Harmony 6:15 Law & Tradition 8:28 Piety & Spirituality 11:24 Final Thoughts

[@NINOJITSU]

Fantastic you're so good at this video making. Thank you.

[@Daedalus510]

this i just an idea but if you could come up with possible alternate Strixhaven colleges based on the missing color pairings from the originals, that would make for interesting and fun conversation.

[@Number1masksfan]

That would be interesting

[@polares01]

I'm selesnya to the level that i heard "true fulfillment often often arises from contributing to the greater good" and thought "is true fulfillment possible without contributing to the greater good?"

[@TheMightyBattleSquid]

I love ya Dice but I'll be incredibly judgy, in the back of my mind, if this is sticking to the hippy version of selesnya without mentioning the hunting grounds and arenas side of the combo.

[@DiceTry]

That's fair, some nuance is lost with these videos because they are straight down the middle. Perhaps there is room for a video where I discuss other avenues for each pair

[@-Claws72-]

That would be very fun!

[@shorewall]

I think since the color Pair is named after a faction, we tend to stereotype. But W/G also has different takes in Dromoka on Tarkir, as well as several others. We can also look at W/G rep in 3 color pairs, like Abzan, Naya, and Bant. I do think that Selesnya is pretty hippy by default. But that is backed up by a martial culture, giant animals, and no qualms about fighting anyone who tries to attack them.

[@loneoutsider8004]

Can a solitary person(like a hermit, for example)be Selesnya without the need for community. Someone who is peaceful and content with its place in life without seeking connections with others?

[@coleriedel751]

This is my inspiration for my LG Ancestry Barbarian

[@dekaw9138]

I have a question, do you analyze philosophy or faction lore because the two don’t always match

[@Number1masksfan]

Generally colour philosophy, but I think it is some times he covers factions through the lense of colour philosophy

[@Gabriel-sn6yg]

What was the music at the end?

[@-Claws72-]

I really enjoyed this video. You managed to make Selesnya sound attractive even to me, a very black person, at least until the words law & tradition came up! XD 👍

[@TerryBradstreet]

Wise laws and traditions are recognitions of the limitations of our reality. Tyranny is making laws and traditions that oppose reality. Black is the color of tyrannical imposition, with its dungeons, abattoirs, blackmail, and the enslavement of the dead. In MTG, you can’t hide what color you are. In reality, “White” is the favorite mask that Black wears to legitimize its tyranny.

[@aaronrodriguez9376]

I think naya is the perfected version of selesnya.

[@Wyrm7774]

Whats the art at 11:30?

[@ViridianSunrise]

Sigil Blessing, from Shards of Alara

[@shorewall]

I think Green has been mistakenly changed from what it should be, by Mark Rosewater. (The George Lucas effect, where a creator keeps tinkering with their creation until they make it worse.) I don't think Acceptance is the end goal of Green, but the means to the end. You know how White is Peace through Order? Believing that the proper Order can bring Peace. This is both good and bad. If Peace doesn't come, then you need more Order! But we also need rules and law, aka Order, to help different people to get along in Peace. If Acceptance is Green's end goal, then how does it intend to get there? Because all you really have to do is...Accept yourself, and the world. You don't really need to do anything. How do you get a conflict with the other colors? How do you fight? I think Green is Growth through Acceptance. I think Green wants to Grow, bigger and more. And it does that by Accepting the natural order. Like the other colors, this is both good and bad. It is good to accept yourself so that you can build on your strengths and be within yourself. It is considered bad to accept that some creatures are meant to feed a bigger, better, predator. Also, this gives a limit to Green's Acceptance. Green doesn't Accept Black or Blue Mana actions, so how can it's end goal be said to be Acceptance? It clearly doesn't Accept everything. With the new motivation, it makes sense. Green Accepts that which leads to further Growth. Black Mana destroys that which could have Growth, and Blue mana interferes with natural Growth. Green wanting Acceptance doesn't conflict with White or Red. Can't Green just accept them? Red wants Freedom, White wants Peace. But a Green desire for unlimited Growth does interfere with White's Orderly Peace, and is interfered on by Red's Active Freedom. It also gives a bit of hypocrisy to Green. Green gets mad when Black kills something, but doesn't get mad when a Green creature kills and eats another creature. To Black it is hypocrisy, to Green it is part of the natural order. Acceptance is still a key part of Green, but now it is the tool. Accept nature, including your own nature, and you will be able to Grow, or be part of something else's Growth. If you are meant to be big and strong, Grow bigger and stronger. If you aren't, then support those who are. Accept your place in the Circle of Life. Everyone has a place in the Circle of Life, even if they might not like that place. And that way of thinking doesn't appeal to everyone. Blue and Black mana reject the Circle of Life and Natural Order.

[@TerryBradstreet]

Right? Green has been given such an emphasis on family and community which seems to distract people from how Green treats its prey and its enemies. It’s not for nothing that one of its allies is Red, because Green nature is “red in tooth and claw”. Green doesn’t care about the small and the weak; only White really does. For the weak, Green treats them as food, Blue treats them as test subjects, Red treats them as toys, and Black treats them as fuel. All of them preach that the weak must submit to the strong; only White says that the strong must protect the weak. (Blue can say it seeks to enlighten and elevate the weak - which for them means the dim, the ignorant, the misinformed - but Blue cannot teach them because it is still always searching for its Perfect Truth, so it must use its students as experiments to find the Perfect Truth.)

[@davidperkins7782]

I'm gonna be honest. Selesnya does sound intoxicating, but in my experience, the collectivist mentality has a tendency of causing trouble. First off, the way I see it, life is naturally a competition. The whole "let's work together and build a better world" idea makes sense, but I feel that's less about people working together and more of people working at the behest of others. Those at the top tend to demand selflessness from others while being selfish. They leverage virtue (or the image of virtue) to compete for power. Not only is their virtue usually fake, but it says that they have no other abilities to compete with. Above all, humans are naturally individualistic. I'm of the opinion that you cannot demand stuff like trust, unity, or kindness. You can only earn or encourage them. But people WILL only truly come together if the right to stay apart is maintained. If you force it, people will resent you for it. Personally I feel as Rakdos and Dimir are the most realistic color combos. Rakdos embraces the fact that humans are hedonistic. Dimir embraces the competition of life. Selesnya is sounds nice and looks pretty, but it can lead to someone being taken advantage of because it rejects the notions of selfishness and individualism that allow people to cater to think of and for themselves. If not causing people to be overly jealous and prone to attacking in groups those who don't fit in. Sure, black's perspective doesn't bother going further than self preservation and personal gain, but it at least accepts it as truth.

[@TerryBradstreet]

Where does Selesnya forbid competition? The fairest of competitions can only exist where all participants cooperate to obey the rules. In Selesnya, the members of the community compete to see who is the most qualified for any given position. Whereas in Pure Black, there is no room for real cooperation, there are no rules, and you don't get the most qualified person to RUN a kingdom... just the person who was most qualified to TAKE CONTROL of a kingdom. And the people who are so ravenously, insatiably hungry to acquire power at any cost tend to be the least qualified people to govern a country into prosperity.

[@shorewall]

If you think Rakdos and Dimir are the most realistic color pairs, then I'm sorry for what you've had to live through. Humans are realistically all five colors, and no color pair is best in all situations.

[@davidperkins7782]

@@TerryBradstreet black is willing to make a sacrifice for it's own benefit. I Interpret that to mean that it's willing to follow white's rules provided there are certain benefits. Like safety, comfort, prosperity, and protection of its remaining freedoms. It's called a social contract. While white is all too willing to just expect people to follow it's rules because of morality and stuff. But morality only works when people can trust the system, powers that be, or each other.

[@davidperkins7782]

@@TerryBradstreet and regarding that topic of running a kingdom of nation, you can still get power hungry people in office even in a fair election. The only difference is that it's more a battle of charisma and social manipulation rather than brute force. I'm not arguing that brute force is better, but I am saying that you can have leaders who are just as power hungry in a white green society. But because selesnya calls on individuals to work/submit to the group, these corrupt leaders have more power because they can morally gaslight people into giving up their rights. Once again, this is why I prefer black. Black acknowledges human individuality. And despite how it's often portrayed, I believe that black can use this understanding to be fair. In life we compete for power, status, resources, and territory. For black, this is just the basic law. White will compete no differently than black, but will make ideological excuses. It's for the greater good, or it's the will of God.

[@Brendow26]

Above what other said, humans aren't naturally individualistic. We are naturally social creatures, we wouldn't survive being individual. That's a very recent thing in the history of humanity, something bred by political ideologies that took place in the last couple of centuries, whereas in most of its history, and still in many places today, humans are fully social and coletivistic, apart from a few individual exceptions

[@TerryBradstreet]

The fundamental difference between White and Green is the argument of which came first: God or Nature. White says that God came first and deliberately crafted Nature. Green says that Nature came first and blindly made God. Each of them thinks that the other is worshiping the creation rather than the creator. I don't know how Selesnya is supposed to resolve this disagreement. Crucially, they can't BOTH be right, and they can't BOTH be wrong. ONE of them has to be right, and thus superior to the other.

[@nathanpascal5182]

I think the solution for this problem you are looking for might be Pantheism. In short, God is Nature, and Nature is God, there was no first and no second, no separation between creation and creator. Sounds like the perfect fusion between White and Green for me, although my understanding of the Color Pie is not exactly vast at this point.

[@TerryBradstreet]

@@nathanpascal5182 White's position that God made nature IS the position that God is nature; the supernature existence which is more natural than nature itself. Green cannot agree with this, because if a principled being designed nature according to principles and virtues, then Green would need to acknowledge divine law as much as White. At which point Green stops being Green and becomes simply White.

[@TheJamesGamel]

Grixis talking, while i have always been able to stomach green, this combo in my opinion sets itself up for failure. Any ideology that can't coexist with opposition sets itself up for constant conflict. This combo is the most cultlike, even more so than Rakdos for while Red/Black can be a dangerous pair capable of anything, their fierce independence & Individuality makes them highly accepting of others without needing to compromise themselves or others. Selesnya simply can't deal with the idea of anyone being different to themselves, making them intolerable people to be around. While they say they are accepting of others, this is only, and i say ONLY, if you think and life like they do. Many political & cultural comparisons can be made here as examples, but regardless if your system only works if everyone belives in it & contributes to its flourishing, then that's a terrible system. With white/green communities in the past here in our world, they are almost always used to take advantage & abuse others for personal gain, all while every follower just turns a blind eye - no no, that's too kind, no watches with pride as the very things they are suppose to abhor are cheered on. This mindset makes the person who believes in it a victim waiting to be taken advantage of. Now the, what if we added colors to this? Black would optimize these problems right out by making sure each individual was self serving by being selfless. When you have pride, an endless hunger for more, and the people & resources to back it up, then you have a force to reckon with. Red also richly helps by actually fueling the heart and soul of these people, making sure they doht become complacent in their peace. Blue is a hinderance, just going along with the stated goals and objective but not having any grounds to assert its own values.

[@devariojohns]

Could I request an explanation as to how you came by this thought process? As a grixis person who is trying to, for lack of a better phrase, get rid of my flaws, I find selesnya to be something that I want to strive for. As a person woth the traits of rakdos, I don't see how people whose only concern is themselves can be accepting or even empathetic of others. And while I agree that Selesnya can be cult-like, it does not remove individuality. It requires that everyone pitch in and follow laws that help protect everyone, but it doesn't say, "dont be yourself." Also,wouldn't adding black just make your view of selesnya worse in terms of dealing with opposing beliefs? Adding black just makes it go from, Everyone follow the rules, to Everyone follow the rules and those who don't, die.

[@SiegfriedDrachentoeter]

As a Naya Mage, I hope you do realize that people who in history took advantage of Selesnya aligned people tend to be more Dimir aligned. Its also not like WG is helpless. Look at the actual Selesnya Guild, who may not be perfect but certainly isnt weak and can stand on its own. And for the Rakdos... Sure they might be more accepting of everything, its just that nobody who actually cares about their life would really want to live in a Rakdos society.

[@TheJamesGamel]

@devariojohns Rakdos can be, and often is, empathetic of others through Red's influence. Red is the heart, the passion, the fire that ignites the very soul of humanity. While Black is focused on the self, Black still has Empathy and love for others, just not those who are a drain on their own existence. When these colors come together, Red's insistence on being true to yourself & Black's radical acceptance of reality as it really is and not how we want it to be, makes it the most honest of the 2 color combos. Those who align with Red/Black hold themselves in high regard, and as such do not want their reputation to reflect some fake version of themselves, but instead reflect what and who they really are. 2 examples, first my own reputation. I have a friend not from the area who had a job where he got to meet a lot of the local population, and found out that I was well known throughout the larger area. What shocked him was that people only ever had 2 opinions of me ; they either loved me and thought I was the best or they hated me and thought I was evil incarnate. There wasn't a Grey area for my reputation. To anyone who hears the details of these 2 sides, it makes no sense and you can't come to an honest conclusion . . . Without meeting me yourself. What most people find is I treat those around me well, until you cross me or those I care about. At that point, Black gets to have its unrestrained fun. I tell people I am a horrible, evil, terrible, amoral person. For some reason, they never believe me until it's too late. The 2nd example is honesty itself. I have a close group of people I associate with, and each person has an effect on the group as a whole. One of the things I cause is that I am honest regardless of how much it hurts you. Ponder this, what happens when you have a group of people who regularly interact, and unapologetic honesty in action, words, and behavior becomes the norm? They all become really good at spotting lies. We had a person try to date a member of the group, and the first few times this person came over triggered red flags of abuse, manipulation, and lies. That liar fled as soon as they realized that they were outgunned, outnumbered, and outmatched by everyone in that room. Rakdos doesn't want to be surrounded by people who aren't their true selves, and just as they demand others not try and change them, they won't change others. Each person should remain true to themselves, for we are each the most important being in our own lives. I disagree with your notion that Selesnya doesn't remove individuality. Their laws, traditions, culture & customs all reflect real world tactics used by cults to remove the part of ourselves that questions, rebels, and refuses. These tactics are used to create a united front, yes, but they are also making it so they don't have internal conflicts to deal with like we see with every other 2 color combo. This combination takes people of any background, any history, of any culture, and presses them into their own predesigned mold of what they expect them to be. "You can be anyone you want to be, so long as you are one of us". "Everyone follow the rules, and those who don't die" isn't at all what Abzan stands for. Look at how Black influences both sides of Selesnya. Black extends a hand to White, reminding and reassuring White that while the whole world and all the people can't and won't be able to prosper, doesn't mean that for the people who show that they have worth that White's goals can't be achieved on a small scale and later expanded. Black isn't all about murder , death, and torture, it's unbound ambition. Someone who has both White & Black is a selfless person for those who they consider part of their community. They strive to better others because by doing so, they empower themselves. It's not about obedience, accepting blindly, and violating your own being, but instead these colors become about striving forward, making your desires heard, your weaknesses annihilated, for when each person is helping each other become stronger & better off, the group can grow and prosper. On the other hand, Black gives Green a hearty hug, eager to get started. Green and Black are natural enemies, but of the enemy pairs is one of the fiercest when allied together. With Black's focus on the self, and Green's mind aligned with how things are naturally, these colors combine into a hunter, someone who knows they ARE at the top of the food chain, they are the danger in the shadows of the trees, they are the death that is how nature works. Golgari is a predator, someone who will not submit to others, will not submit to an organization, or even to a religion. Instead this hunter is someone who understands that in this world the laws of nature are applied, no matter the environment, and while you may need to swap out for other tools & weapons, you are a predator who is always evolving, a danger to be feared and respected. There will always be prey, and you don't need to hunt every weakling who crosses your path, but that is your choice to make,you are just the superior part of this natural order, no, this natural dominance. So when you have a community who is made of of hunters, people who want to always empower the group, who understand the limits of lofty goals that must be worked towards, this group heavily supports each other because by doing so they strengthen themselves. Also this allows each person to have a bunch of people empowering themselves. Black fixes the Selesnyian philosophy, as most "natual" enemies tend to with "Natural" ally pairs.

[@TerryBradstreet]

If a system only exists to abuse its workers for the gain of the leaders, that's not White or Green, it's Black. In the real world, Black can hide its Color in a way forbidden in Magic: The Gathering, where Color is painted onto every card. Green is about organic, personal community, and White is about charity, healing, and helping individuals. Both of them fundamentally oppose systemic abuse and industrialized dehumanization, which are instead hallmarks of their common enemy: Black. If so many Black cards feature dungeons, torture chambers, human experimentation, charnel houses, and slave pits, then surely Black is the color of state-run, mandatory "public education" schools that grind curiosity and self-expression out of students to make them better slaves, as well as bureaucracy that keeps the majority of people under control without concern for the few who fall through the cracks.

[@TheJamesGamel]

@SiegfriedDrachentoeter I will concede many Dimir have taken advantage of everyone, Selesnyians can be easy targets for them, however in practice societies like the Selesnya Guild don't last. Selesnya can stand on its own if we just overlook the masses of the Guildless who could easily have a better life in the "bounty" of the Selesnyian gardens, however they refuse to join, why? If the Guildless have such a terrible environment and standard of living, why not join up with the "hippies" of Ravnica . . . unless Selesnya's not the utopia it's cracked up to be. I have a few friends who are Naya, and I'd like to extend a story on one of them. They worked at a restaurant, got hired as a chef (literally ran a kitchen at another restaurant for years), was kicked out of the kitchen to front of house. I went to work there for a time, just to see if I could maybe help his situation. I found out he was being sabotaged, exposed the situation, and got fired. I didn't mind, however regardless of him knowing he was getting screwed over, used, and disrespected, he stayed and tried to make it work "the right way". He has had his friends & fiance try and convince him to leave. The thing that mare him quit was when they sent him home early after humiliated him in front of everyone by lying about him. Only then did the Red in him FINALLY stand up for himself. He has a new job working in a kitchen again, but White & Green are quite strong in him, and it makes him weak to others who would manipulate, take advantage of, and use him. As far as a Rakdos society, in MTG it is a combat focused game, and WoTC+MTG have a long history of making Rakdos a villian pair. In reality, a Rakdos society wouldn't be run be a Demon like on Ravinca, it would be a place where people are doing their own thing, having their own lives, and stand their own ground when challenged. Red is a very loving, compassionate color, and Black does care about those who prove they are worth caring for. Would everyone get along in a Rakdos society, of course not, but they don't need to for the society to function.

[@jabulanirobinson4620]

The Kinetic Kid Legion The Watcher Dwarf In The Flask

[@danacoleman4007]

And Deez nutZ

[@Sanbaddy]

The color combo of conformity and lack of self. I hate Selesnya more than any other color combo.

[@Sliverandzant943]

@@Sanbaddy No wonder, considering the worst aspects of each of those colors (White's emphasis on conformity and lack of personal ambition, and Green's dislike for thinking and creating) were virtually the ingredients Nietszche used to create the Last Man, a being utterly devoid of any will or vision to improve or stand out.

[@Sanbaddy]

@@Sliverandzant943 Exactly! Its ideals suppress free will. Literally one of the flavor text of their cards says “be the same, only trust others like yourself”. Selesnya doesn’t bring innovation or aspirations, just clones and slaves of the mind. Literally if you look at their token spam theme. Just copy, of a copy, of a copy. There is no freedom is such ideals.

[@dekaw9138]

@@Sanbaddydimir is the most evil color pair

[@Sanbaddy]

@@dekaw9138 I wouldn’t say evil, just most pragmatic.

[@paulgoodridge2269]

As much as I can. Respect the philosophy of that color combination sounds to utopian for me. As far as I'm concerned that this is the color combination of pathological altruism. Alternatively, murder of oneself for the group.

[@TerryBradstreet]

I don't understand what Green brings to Selesnya that White doesn't already have. Does not White already have harmony through its embrace of anyone willing to live by its laws and according to its values of compassion and civic duty? How can a White society not have traditions as part and parcel of having a stable, self-perpetuating culture? If the God of a White society made the world and its nature, then worshiping nature as Green does would be like asking a table to fix itself instead of asking the carpenter who made the table to fix it. If the God made nature, then the God is the center and source of the natural world, more natural than even trees and animals.

[@jabulanirobinson4620]

I Am 🧿👁🪬 The One True Colorless One

[@sircunnilingus]

Ah, fantasy communists...

[@loneoutsider8004]

You're joking, right?