Did anyone *actually* solve Echoes of the Eye?

[@andrew_cunningham]

Obligatory and preemptive comment addressing the existence of "Reduced Frights" mode: Yes, I knew it was a thing. No, I never considered using it, because my issue with the stealth on my first playthrough was not that I was afraid of Owlk jumpscares, it was that I was afraid of having to retry the stealth segment for the 10th time. As I say in the video's conclusion, creating "frights" was an explicit goal of the DLC. Being frustrating and prohibitively difficult was, I assume, not. Trying to mitigate the repetitive/frustrating aspects of the stealth segments my making them less _scary_ is getting the issue completely backwards. I want frights, but I don't want my (poor) ability to do gameplay while frightened to be a bottleneck in the experience. Of course, as I have since learned, the "Reduced Frights" option is actually much closer to a "Reduced Difficulty" option in practice. It apparently removes the ability of the Owlk to charge at you and overall makes the stealth much easier. To this I say: "Fuck. That sure would have been nice to know!" It's almost like, if the option has a bigger impact on the game's mechanical difficulty than its scariness, the option should be called "Reduced Difficulty". Or better yet, have the option pop up after the first loop where you get caught by an Owlk instead of the main menu on bootup, and call it "reduced stealth difficulty". Please make the option name match the thing it does, Alex, I would have uuuuuuuuused it! _I would have used it Alex!_

[@hibilbo4755]

Honestly I still wouldn't have turned it on. It'd feel a bit like turning on Celeste's assist mode, where I'm going against what the creators intended for me to experience for the sake of an easier time. Outer Wilds is a game that so perfectly shows the player a seemingly insurmountable challenge only for there to be a clever solution again and again and again. There's always some secret trick to every obstacle that you could totally figure out if you were observant enough and experimented enough. Even in the DLC all of the glitches felt like you *could* figure them out if you really really thought about it, they all gave me an "OF COURSE that's how that'd work" moment instead of an "Oh that's how I do this part", and I had no reason to think that the owlks would be any different (especially considering 2 of the 3 major locations have paths that put you in basically no danger if you know what you're doing, in exactly the same way to every other obstacle in the game), and by the time I realised that I did have to actually go through that stealth to get to a major section I was thinking that surely it'd have some big thematic payoff, surely in some way the time I put in stumbling around in the dark would make the game retroactively that much better, like how returning to sections in the main game over and over paid off in the "makes you glad you stopped and smelled the pine trees along the way" quote. But that... kinda happened with relating it to facing your fears for the sake of knowledge? It was unsatisfying. In hindsight I would've had a better experience with reduced frights but I had no reason to think the DLC to my favourite game of all time would let me down with such a major mechanic. Still an amazing DLC for a masterpiece of a game, but a really weird decision on their part that I really don't think they could've remedied for me without a text box saying "We didn't mean for this to be so difficult and its difficulty has no amazing payoff, feel free to reduce the difficulty if you're struggling, it won't impact your enjoyment negatively whatsoever"

[@partymix1997]

ngl, i think Alex did that to make you feel scared when the dlc is installed lmao "reduced frights" in my (and probably others minds) = this sig gonna be very scary, even more then the fish. Fear of the unkown ig (I don't like it, but i can kinda see it)

[@NotBanned_]

@@partymix1997 hey you’re one of the guys on the subreddit, small world

[@partymix1997]

@@NotBanned_ it is indeed, very cool community of people watching other people play the game they wish they could play again.

[@NateThe_Great24]

SPOILERS BELOW One thing I thought was interesting in what you discussed here was about the work smarter vs. work harder argument. Like, yeah, the game rewards you for being patient and clever, studying the teleporters and the anglerfish and the rising sand, etc, but while the design philosophy at play tries to dissuade the player from bashing their head against the wall, it never _really_ tells you "no, don't!" Outer Wilds is a cerebral game, and of course we high IQ 1337 gamers get satisfaction from figuring out the secrets we need to, but like, there's a reason why people upload videos of their hotshot landings on the sun station: It's meant to be super-duper hard (like you said, to get the player to step back and rethink) but *not impossible.* Hell, Echoes does this exact thing too, later: either you can brute-force the combination for the third lock, full-on Doctor Who "Heaven Sent"-style, or you can just take the easy way out, and readily and easily deafen yourself to the alarm system. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not some arbitrary dichotomy of right or wrong answers-- Any solution that works is a good solution. And why even _let_ you wait out the Owlks if the devs didn't want you to milk that advantage for all it's worth?

[@Suillus_Luteus]

I didn't get frustrated by the stealth segments because each time I got caught, I got to see the inhabitants cute faces up close. Still a 9/10 tho, couldn't kiss the owlks.

[@doctorsmiles4530]

Same! I felt so invested in these other living creatures!

[@entomologyenthusiast]

Owlk kisser 😳

[@quantumblauthor7300]

Fellowlkisser Viovayo made a hug mod for you

[@loaytarek135]

Cute???

[@lqntt]

(in Joker's voice) Why. so. 𝒻𝓇𝑒𝒶𝓀𝓎

[@nathanielkershner5904]

The most fascinating thing about Outer wilds to me has always been fear. To clarify, a friend spoiled EotE for me when I was a quarter of the way through, so i never really played that. I mean the base game. I heard this take from a random off hand comment in point crow's twitch chat while he was playing it, that each of the planets in the game represents a common phobia, and now that I've heard this I will never un-see it. Ember twin is so obviously claustrophobia. it literally closes in around you and crushes you to death. Ash twin and the sun station both play the role of Agoraphobia, fear of open spaces and being too exposed. Ash twin hit me hard. nearly every second I spent there on my playthrough I was sure I was about to get sucked up by the sun's gravity and lifted off of the relative safety of solid ground. since then, I have tested, and if you let the sun get its biggest, stand atop the tallest tower, jetpack as high as you can, it still is not enough to get picked up by the sun. It scared me anyway. moving on, Brittle hollow is fear of heights. all the time you're on the outside of the planet you're wondering if the ground beneath your feet is as stable as you think it is, and all the time you're in side it a single missed jump will lead into a literally bottomless pit. sure, it's harmless, and once you learn that it gets a little better. but it's still a height. Timber hearth doesn't really have any fears, it's the calm and comforting home you return to when the world outside is a little too scary. but nothing of meaning can really be accomplished there, can it? Giant's deep is fear of the ocean. not fear of swimming, but the ocean. I've seen youtubers get spooked by the long swimming segments travelling between islands. funnily enough, I actually have the fear of swimming, but I don't think i've seen a single video game successfully capture that. 99% of the time you just need to hold W. maybe W and space. funnily enough, the next four celestial bodies all play surprisingly similar roles, with Dark bramble, The interloper, The quantum moon, and The eye of the universe (the four most relevant places to the story of the game) all representing different forms of one of the greatest fears of all, the fear of the unknown. (one of the most central themes of the game.) Dark bramble is monsters and evils hiding in the shadows. It's the thing under your bed, inside the closet. it's the reason you keep a night light on. The interloper is similar, but not the same. it's not the malevolent evil that kills you, it's the uncaring force of nature that kills you. it's a landslide, an earthquake, a sinkhole. the deep tragedy of the calamity wrought by something that will never and can never comprehend anything it has done, and can never truly be blamed for anything because it never had a mind in the first place. funnily, this can only really be experienced from the outside perspective and that's exactly how the game shows it to us. a tragedy from which we are but a mere observer. The Quantum moon and the eye are similarly paired. (funny that) where the quantum moon is the unknowable, ineffable mystery that you can almost see but never touch. you know it's there. but you can never reach it. The eye is the version of this which you can reach, but it never does you any good to do so. you can fully immerse yourself in it, and all you will find is a greater mystery still. no matter what, you will never know the answer here, and any claim to the contrary is a blind shot in the darkness. This is the unknown, and this is the unknowable. and nothing will ever change that. The entire supernova cycle give the game a thin outer shell of the fear of not having enough time, but the real gem which is what solidified this game to me as one of the most awe inspiring ever made is its last moments. during the final voyage it instills something that many games have tried, but nearly all have failed. this has been the goal of many a horror game, and nearly every game with permadeath. against all odds, the final voyage manages to capture the fear of death. you don't get to the end of Outer Wilds if you aren't fully immersed in the story, and the emotional journey, and the game makes it so much easier than most to slide fully into the internal mode without even realizing it. throughout the entire game, ever since you left the museum, your character has never been in any danger. at worst, you could lose about ten minutes of your time. in reality, there is no real skill needed to complete the final voyage. just don't touch the thrusters as you glide past the anglerfish. even more so, even though your character can really die there all that would happen to you is you would lose ten minutes of your time. sure the credits would roll, but then you just load the save. if you got this far, you know on some level that the developers value your time and wouldn't actually delete your file or anything (though on the menu where it normally says "continue expedition" it instead says "load save file") so you are in no danger. no more than any boss in dark souls, any caving session in terraria, any night in minecraft. and there are lower stakes than many of them. But the mortality weighs on you anyway. I have never seen this in a video game. I'm sure it's been done, but I have never seen it. Outer wilds manages to know exactly how players think, how they react, and reduces it to a science and plays them like fiddles. Outer wilds is a game that can and will scare you, means to do so, and gets away with it. most people don't think of it as a horror game because it is a highly unconventional horror game, but it is the scariest horror game I have ever played. I don't know why this isn't a more common opinion.

[@igrazm2437]

You're spot on pretty much, but I think there's a better way to describe the Eye of the universe and fear it corresponds to. There's a reason it's climax of the game, I think it's the most suitable for a game about space theme for it. The Eye is existential dread, and the feeling of how minute and miniscule and alone you really are, when faced with the seeming infinity of space, especially with the idea that even the universe will implode, and you wouldn't ever be able to affect when that happens. Even comprehending the scale of some of the objects or events in space is pretty much impossible. Even attempting you really need to make an effort, it's almost as if you're trying to look into another dimension. I would say it's really not too different from fear of ocean you've mentioned, but when it comes to themes that the Eye being up, it's also connected to fear of death. I think there's really some kind of connection there, it's almost like trying to imagine myself in regards to space feels like dying to me? It's like void, making all that you know feel less significant. Even though, there is certainly positive side to the whole concept - you can have a hard time or make mistake in life, but the meaninglessness of your troubles can really elevate you occasionally, once you look at it from outside so to say. It's really all tied to your imagination, I feel people can definitely be using it for their benefit. There's a reason Outer wilds ending is pretty positive.

[@calcorps5016]

I’d also like to add that the DLC explores this theme of existential dread further with the Owlk race. A spoiler warning for the story content of the dlc (although I’m sure it’s not needed). When they discover the Eye’s signal they foresee the end of the universe, and at that moment it can’t be mistaken that they are overcome with this dread that all their efforts are for naught, for the eye they have been searching for and sacrificed their home for would kill them - and they got angry. They tossed aside this fundamental part of their culture, and regressed to a state of mourning for the home they had lost, and created the simulated world the player travels through. Their perception of the Eye and ultimately rejection of its message led them to their fate, but can you really blame them? They were scared of dying like anyone else, and no less the end of everything. The DLC not only explores this existential threat, but also the lengths a technologically advanced race will go to subdue their fear of death, or in the base game’s case, satiate their curiosity. Whereas the Nomai charged forward in the face of uncertainty, driven inexorably towards their goals no matter how many they lost; the Owlk receded into a somber existence, having conceded their fate adrift an unknown solar system, far from the planet they destroyed. This parallel, I feel, is intersected by the Prisoner. Brave enough to accept the Eye’s message, but without the capacity to reach it. But the Eye didn’t care, its unfeeling influence only deigned to bring about the next life, and both Nomai tenacity and Owlk sentimentality would meet the same fate. All things are conjoined in the end.

[@connorblack99]

Timber Hearth doesn’t represent a fear because it is populated by the Heartheans, a people who by and large seem to be capable of overcoming fear pretty well. Chert’s existential despair is well documented, sure, but so are the attitudes of slate and feldspar, both of whom would probably take the news of the end of the world with some level of “damn, alright then”. Even Riebeck, self proclaimed guy afraid of space is one of the few astronauts because that is what the Heartheans do, they conquer fear. They are the spark that lights the campfire in every corner of the solar system. The Nomai were amazing, and empathetic, and kind, and generous, and smart, and tenacious, but I don’t know what they would have done upon finding the eye. Assuming they understood its purpose, or scanned it as the owlks did, I do think they would have understood it better than the owlks. Maybe they would have created some kind of safeguard system for it before making contact with other Nomai to share their great discovery. A universe created by them would probably be wonderful in very different ways, but I think the down to earth nature of the Heartheans sparking it mixed with their memory is maybe a better recipe.

[@D_387]

I think the developers confirmed they never designed the planets with fears in mind, instead asking themselves "what would be a cool place to explore?". But really though, with how open to interpretation this game is, outer wilds is whatever we make of it to ourselves.

[@lepercolony8214]

Imagine also being terrified of tornadoes on Giants Deep

[@SyntaxDaemon]

Ehhh I watched a friend play these sections exclusively after the patch, and by scouting areas out ahead of time as well as using careful observation to juke the owls, he pretty successfully trivialized most of the encounters. He died once and learned that he should plan a route before turning the lights off. He died a second time and learned that he needed to use the flashlight to check where he was going. He died a third time and learned that he needed to lure them. And that was it. His only other deaths were experimentation. So personally, I do think thats the intended solution, *and* I think its still totally fair as a puzzle - not unlike the anglerfish, just cranked way up. Careful planning and usage of your tools is all it takes.

[@wigglerlesbian]

I just wasn't here for stealth horror and they were too scary for me lmao

[@firekirby123]

Yeye, definitely seems to be reinforced by the changes. Though I will say, I envy everyone who got to do the Endless Canyon stealth sequence post-patch. The pre-patch layout for the lodge was _hell_ to traverse in the dark, even *with* the intended playstyle in mind. The patch's changes make it comparatively a BREEZE.

[@menegy2982]

I agree, bc I got through the same way.

[@Solscalr]

I actually had a lot of fun trying to learn how to sneak past the Owlk because I really enjoy stealth in games and it just feels like one big puzzle. Also everything becomes way easier once you realize how the Owlk work and how they search for you. Most of the time I just hid in a corner of a side room, waited for them to start the spin thing, and then just ran past them. I could also turn on my light shortly afterwards because they never spotted me. Plus the game wouldn't be as fun if everything worked first try. Also, if people are complaining about getting reset, they shouldn't be playing a game with a time loop.

[@hastur2905]

​@@Solscalr It's frustrating because nothing else in the game requires skill to do, just knowledge checks. Any other problem that you come across and can't solve within 3 tries, you know it's because you just lack the knowledge required and decide to come back later. And then out of the fucking nowhere the game throws at you a honest to god skillcheck that you have to git gud at and keep retrying. There's also the element that i signed up to play outer wilds not some janky ass outlast thing. If avoiding the stealth was the actual supposed solution it would've been way better, and even a very good parallel to how you don't get the codes to the bridges, just ways to abuse the simulation and skip them. They wouldn't even have to change much! The answers are all already there, they just need a bit more nudging towards. It's already pretty easy to discover the matrix by accident, they would just have to add some incentive to dropping the lantern. Maybe adding a projector that you have to get away from? Flooded Plains is practically perfect, the answer already is "skip the stealth". For the Starlit Cove, they'd just have to make the tower fall a bit earlier in the loop, or add time protection once you enter the staircase

[@centisaur]

save me, outer wilds video. outer wilds video... save me

[@Maski500]

Real

[@MyNguyen-xp9ft]

real

[@Dukemz]

real,

[@Sroomfie]

real

[@crusader_.]

real

[@BackseatStreams]

Literally every single person I've seen play it didn't want to use "Reduced Frights" since they didn't want to miss content, not realising it doesn't turn ANYTHING off at all and just makes the Owlks move a bit slower. Agree with Andrew that it's a really poor naming convention for that particular option and lots of people would have enjoyed it more had that been a little clearer.

[@Kolanappen1]

OMG! Backseat I'm literally soyjaking.

[@bodbyss]

It stops them from screaming at you and the music blaring at you.

[@ericquiabazza2608]

It all is a clear miscommunication from the author to the fans and what they "want people to do/feel"

[@GabrielLANSALOT-CARON]

Backseat??? Btw I enabled them because I easily get scared

[@saltiimoth]

I played the DLC post-patch and didn't really have any issues figuring those sections out, it was a little frustrating at first but learning how to trick and lure the owlks out the way was certainly a rewarding experience, I even went back for the "Ghosts in the Machine" achievement later on, where you go to all three archives in one loop

[@ItsTheCLaUD]

I think the most interesting thing is that every forbidden archive is easier to access using the glitch it reveals. The lowlands archive can be reached via going OOB, the canyon’s archives can be reached without turning the lights off using the invisible platforms the LOD glitch reveals, and the cove can be reached without turning the lights off by killing yourself. I think it is intentional that each archive is guarded BY the mechanic whose flaw it conceals, but also wouldn’t it be so much more “outer wilds-y” if no matter which archive you made it to first, it revealed an exploit that trivialized one of the other two? It’s for sure an intentional decision but it’s interesting nonetheless I think.

[@bodbyss]

huh......That does seem like an odd game design choice.

[@normalmixo]

they're more like dark souls-style shortcuts than intended solutions. the secrets you learn make it easier to get BACK to the archives if you missed something or want to go watch the reels again (although you can do this in the ship log now), but i think it'd be pretty silly design if one puzzle let you skip another totally solvable puzzle

[@tar_mairon24]

I discovered the LOD glitch by just fooling around with the artifact, thought that if you were to far away from it you would wake up, but discovered the matrix, so I saw the invisible bridge to the right of the canyon and skip the activation and transversing through the river. So thats it, It never ocurred to me to die before entering the simulation, so the crove I did it normally, except seeing where the elks were with the LOD glitch

[@OliyTC]

I agree with @normalmixo but I also think it's a little dev joke. "You could get through this the whole time super easily but you just didn't know how yet" type energy

[@ItsTheCLaUD]

@@OliyTC i totally agree I think it was probably the intent from the devs to make revisiting the archives easier once you have already been there, i just thought it was an interesting choice gameplay/story-wise

[@hareldor9948]

I beat Echoes of the Eye by dropping off balconies and barely surviving the fall damage (which has since been increased) to skip past the guards. Later, I had an IRL conversation with the devs where they explained that the "stealth" sections were always intended to be what they call "cat and mouse", somewhat like you outline in the video. Specifically, the Strangers are extremely smart in that their search algorithms will always find you if you hide in one place, but extremely stupid in that if you shine a light in their eyes, they will go investigate where you were standing *even if you walk away without concealing your lantern*. Nowadays, I can get to the archives within a couple minutes of entering the dream world without concealing my lantern once (except to slip by the starlit cove alarm).

[@ballman2010]

@@hareldor9948 Well now I want to go back and try this. I could swear the owlk in the starlit cove tracked me and kept cutting me off if I drew his attention with my lantern and tried to go the other way.

[@polecat3]

Funnily enough, that's what made me give up. I extinguished my light and they found me anyway, so I thought there's no point in shining the light in their eyes as a distraction

[@calcorps5016]

As someone who vicariously experienced outer wilds and its dlc through my brother playing it (as I had already watched multiple playthroughs before having the means to play it myself), I happened to experience the abject terror in my dear brother, who had never played a horror game before, turn to frustration over the course of no less than an hour. It was quite clear then, and even more-so now, that the horror experience of the dlc was short-lived and post his first ‘death’ the mechanics surrounding the stealth sections weren’t solid enough to capture him in the same way the base game did. In fact, the best horror the dlc provided was the warning the game gave you on boot-up to suggest the ‘reduced frights’ mode option! Because he knew the dlc was now a horror, and enough of a horror to need ‘reduced frights’, he spent every moment pre owlk encounter afraid of a sudden jumpscare, where there were none. And the actual jump-scare of the owlk was hilariously anticlimactic in conjunction with his anxiety up until that point - there’s probably something to that, but I’ll leave my thoughts here. Great game 10/10 would experience again. Tldr: by explicitly preempting the player to expect horror from the dlc through the ‘reduced frights’ notification, more horror is generated through anticipation of the horror, than the actual horror itself.

[@annieabsorbsaqua5793]

I didn't find the prompt that horrifying, but I still thought the entire dlc up to the stealth segments was excellent horror through and through. They really messed it up.

[@Monkeyballs25]

In the dev commentary for the first Amnesia game,they talk about features they added to avoid the "horror turns to frustration" effect. Like if a monster kills a player too much, they spawn it in an easier spot next time

[@hugoamat2496]

Exactly my experience, thank you for summing it up

[@Pekeponzer]

My experience exactly. I got the DLC, saw the pop-up and though "Wow, this must be really scary then" and as I searched through the Stranger & the simulation without turning the lights off I was always on edge. As soon as I learned that 1. The owlks only come out once the lights come out, and 2. the "jumpscares" aren't scary at all, the terror immediately subsided and getting caught became an annoyance.

[@TulipsinAntartica]

Welp, time to play Outer wilds to watch an Andrew video.

[@ten-xlegacy4033]

Yessss, join us!

[@LuckyLuckLuc]

success

[@PDS350]

Do it

[@legendary8879]

there's no way back after it, good luck

[@onionstrange]

The main reason I even started playing Outer Wilds more than a month ago, actually. As soon as I finished the game just a couple of hours ago I RUSHED to watch the Andrew's video. It's now 5am in my timezone. Not a single regret.

[@snosibsnob3930]

She outer my wilds till I spoiler

[@Henry-I-H-N-I]

[LOUD CORRECT BUZZER]

[@maple...]

@@Henry-I-H-N-I she spoil my outer til i'm wild?

[@dabniel8177]

spoiler? I hardly know her!

[@ducko8350]

[LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER]

[@ardent3830]

She echo on my eye until I owlk

[@NotBanned_]

Solving Endless Canyon with the elevator all by myself was the most satisfying moment in the entire game. I love trying to hint people into doing it. The realization that some of the "stealth sections" (2/3, Starlit Cove is just weird) are big puzzles is one most don't have. I only fully understood after months and now years of helping people on the subreddit. Still haven't finished the video, but every glitch lets you solve its corresponding archive without stealth. Not for the first run through, obviously, but a cool detail nonetheless.

[@SeraphinSnecmel]

I didn’t realise you could solve endless canyon by way of stealth, I thought one of the lads was unavoidable and thus the elevator after the flood option the only possible solution. After the canyon and the woods turned out to be flood puzzles I tried a few times to get the reel in Starlit Cove at the very end of the loop in the like half minute between the toppling of the tower and the end of the loop (accessing the Dream from the hidden valley) but I always ran just short of viewing the reel that way except for one time and even then I only barely put the reel in the projector so in the end I gave up and just did the stealth section.

[@leedlelel2373]

There is actually a very clever yet specific way that the starlit cove one can also be solved via puzzle See, if you realized the pattern from the last 2 archives that the glitch that it teaches you can be used to skip the stealth segments to get to its respective archive quickly... you can wait until the end of the loop when the tower falls and the pursuers die, then, immediately head in and watch the slide reel that teaches you the glitch, and from there you can deduce what you need to do Bam boom bing, die in the fire, get past the alarm, and back to the archive you are free of stress

[@celestialspark5697]

@@leedlelel2373 That's how I solved Starlit Cove, although they later attempted to patch out my trick of falling into the garden to start at the lit bridge, forcing you to either have significantly less time or to evade the first guard on the lower level. Although I think you can still finesse your way down into the garden by falling in just the right spot. You do still have to actually go around a single guard in the underground section if you want to watch the slides with a comfortable amount of time, though.

[@patcangy]

Andrew Cunningham videos with Undertale Yellow music feels really natural

[@lilacweather]

I got irrationally happy when the Steamworks theme came on, that's for sure

[@atkvin]

Isaac Antibirth music too! Good taste

[@yolticvanquetzai]

This girl called BeccaBytes recently finished OW as her first playthrough and actually finished it without stealth making those moves of the video it was impressive.

[@cbherb]

I kinda have to disagree, because when I first played, I felt the stealth worked as intended. Certain rooms open up when you turn off the lights specifically so you can navigate around owlks. I would focus my light to see ahead, notice an owlk, shit my pants, and then go around it. Focusing, unfocusing, and turning off the light each serves a purpose. I don't see why anyone would complain about not being able to see them in the dark, when you aren't taking advantage of all of your abilities. Personally, I saw these closed rooms and alternate paths early in the game, and was like "how do I get in there" or "what's the point of this path here", and got this "aha" moment when I turned of the lights and realized what it was for. So saying the solution is just "shine your light" is a bit oversimplified. The solution is using all the tools available to you to find the way forward, and having a clear idea of the map and abilities you have. Outer Wilds does this "the solution is hidden in plain sight" thing alot. Like getting to the sun station: when I first played, I didn't really get how you were supposed to get through the cactus room, and I trialed and errored my way trying fly through it. It wasn't until later where I learned "duh, just wait for the sand to lower part-way instead of all the way". That doesn't make the cactus room a bad puzzle just because the solution is straight forward and I did it the hard way; it's my fault for not paying attention. I feel the same about the stealth: it's not a bad puzzle, you just gotta think about it differently. The ships log usually carries hints on how to get through areas, so I'm curious if the ships log gives you any clues on how to get through the stealth. Edit: Also, I think if the intended solution was to avoid the stealth altogether and do some roundabout thing where you visite multiple campfires, it would have broken up the pacing of the game. I'm glad they didn't commit to this, because I already have some problems with the pacing of the DLC, and I didn't need this part of the game to overstay its welcome.

[@RaptieFeathers]

Yeah, I'm also confused how people missed this

[@uberculex]

The issue for me is that I couldn't see anything well enough to connect dots and was mostly just wandering and missing a turn and being lost in the darkness. I wouldn't have minded the stealth if I could see more than two feet in front of me.

[@knyt0]

@@uberculex you could if you dropped your lantern

[@SENPAI-PO]

It's kinda funny, because by outmaneuvering the first pursuer and then going down and then "getting out of the matrix" - I was able to map the underground and then waited until they all perish. The only thing left was hastily picking one of the 2 new films u find (unlike the video, when he just went for the complete eye - it's not like you have time to fuck around with lore, might as well do something productive) and by adding two and two together - finding out the missing piece for overcoming this simulation (by that point you use your newfound knowledge and go down without alerting anyone and watch the remaining 2 films). So all in all...yeah...just hopping between campfires and avoiding stealth (since after the patch most of them just block your way) while using the knowledge you gain about the simulation is much more rewarding than to just aimlessly going in the dark. First experience the fear and secrets that lurk in the dark - then learn how to move beyond it

[@luchill516]

how long ago did you play? pretty positive there was a patch and it wasnt as easy for ppl who played at the release of the dlc, they used to wander around rather than stay in location. I played very recently, so i never had this issue and felt the stealth was fairly easy, but could see how its harder if they were moving with you. (this is what i've read of the original release, it may be misinfo and if someone knows and could correct id appreciate)

[@vickedorb8866]

There's another, better, way to skip the starlit cove stealth segment. When you snuff out the lights at starlit cove, one of the guards that ends up patrolling the underground starts out on the highest floor of the aboveground (which you can't normally reach) and takes an elevator down to their patrol path, and then sends the empty elevator back up. If you quickly make your way to the walkway just under the elevator after snuffing out the lights, you can jump on top of the elevator as it returns up, then ride it down. This places you right at the end of the underground chamber. This may or may not be intended. The part of the walkway where you need to jump off to get on top of the elevator conspicuously lacks a guardrail, but the top of the elevators on the stranger do not look like you should be able to jump on top of them.

[@andrew_cunningham]

Holy shit I gotta try that. It's not like it sounds super intended or anything, but that's just rally cool if true.

[@angelnati8297]

​@@andrew_cunningham rally

[@gabrielf.4530]

Jumping on top of elevators is the solution to TWO puzzles in the DLC, one of which is mandatory to get every reel. The option to jump on top of that specific elevator is very much intended, yes.

[@hastur2905]

​@@gabrielf.4530What are these 2 again? I only remember that one on the daytime canyon

[@gabrielf.4530]

@@hastur2905 Inside the dream in the canyon, the elevator to the secret archives. Ride the top of it to enter the normally inaccessible archives and find all the reels.

[@meathir4921]

Outer Wilds has always encouraged multiple solutions. You said that the cactus hovering is inconvenient but it's actually not that hard imo. Any solution is a valid one. Similarly, there is no true solution to the Owlks. Only valid ones. Stealth was always an option but not the only one. I solved the alarm glitch on my own but not the lift method.

[@Buggaton]

I did Cactus hovering because I thought that was the right solution. I didn't think you could get back to activate the bridge again in the canyon house so I used the elevator and multiple campfires, learned from the previous solutions.

[@literallymalware]

I think that Outer Wilds is

[@SomeoneTookMyOldName]

And we are

[@ChessQuestionMark]

TRUE

[@LuckyLuckLuc]

"Our mission statement compels us to explode the sun"

[@an0bserver2000]

me too

[@denissdenisson6823]

And that means you outer wilds are

[@briandawley7808]

I've been watching Becca Bytes play through the game, and she actually discovered the skips you describe in this video naturally. I certainly would've never thought of that on my own! I inadvertently discovered the LOD mechanic which was useful in learning where the owlks roam so that helped me avoid the "stealth" segments, but I always felt like I cheated somehow (and never learned how you were supposed to "learn" about that mechanic).

[@jonnyducker]

I came here to make this exact comment 😁👍

[@SonoftheBread]

@@jonnyducker she was so friggin smart in her base game and DLC playthrough

[@theInfiniteEgg-z8i]

@@SonoftheBreadis this the chick that didn’t realize there was a map for 20+ hours? That “super smart” one? 😂

[@cringusmingus]

I feel that the original intent might have just been to interact with the owlks more during the stealth sections. Focusing your light on them allows you to find them, as well as slowing them down, makes it a lot easier

[@avannah]

The starlit cove solution where you wait until the owlks die has actually been done by BeccaBytes in her playthrough! I was surprised to see her do it like this but it ended up being pretty elegant once she figured out through that she could enter that archive pretty easily by dying

[@BlazeMakesGames]

I don't wanna sound like I'm coming off as a big strong tough guy or anything but I can't help but feel like you weren't supposed to stay scared of the Stealth sections for very long? Like the first time you get caught, which probably happens pretty quickly, what literally transpires is they pick you up, wind back like they're gonna do a big spooky jumpscare, and then just gently blow out your light and you wake up unharmed. And like, especially if you think about that in the context of everything that has happened up to that point, I feel like the whole thing is meant to be about *not* being afraid during those parts. Like when you first find the Stranger, it's this big spooky invisible thing that is kind of terrifying, you dock and find these weird ships and a strange airlock. You walk in further trying to figure out what the hell this place is, and then you suddenly fall onto a raft going down a river in a beautiful countryside wrapped up into an amazing Ring. Then you discover the secret rooms, and there's all these dead and decaying bodies in them, and when you learn how to access the dream and don't fully understand what's happening, they suddenly disappear and your mind starts racing with the possibilities of zombies or some shit coming to attack you. And then you step outside and you're met with an alien world and a quaint abode with instruments set aside for entertainment and comfortable living quarters in an albeit dark area. This keeps happening throughout the DLC in big and small ways, setting up situations that look like they're going to be terrifying, only to have the payoff actually be wholesome or at worst harmless for the most part. I think that by the time you're tackling these stealth challenges, you're meant to have come to that realization and see them as the puzzles that they are, rather than as "spoopy jumpscare gotta hide" moments. Which as you said makes it a lot easier to think through the scenarios rather than panicking and running away.

[@tahseenkhan3629]

I stayed scared of owlks even up to finding the prisoner because it looked like they were eating my face when i played in vr. Never made the connection they were just blowing your latern out

[@Capri42PRG]

I think once you learn about them they stop being scary and you start to pity them. That's my experience anyway

[@wyerd0]

Okay but if they have no light to blow out they'll instantly break your neck tho

[@Xd1Perigoso]

@@wyerd0 yes but it never happens to most of the players (me included) and clearly they only kill because they know you will just wake up in the real world

[@jerry3790]

@@Xd1PerigosoThey don’t know that. They are dead and from their perspective you could be dead as well.

[@nicolasvignolo7601]

When I first played the DLC I think it was post-patch and I did shine the light at the owlks. Maybe I'm wrong because it was some time ago already, but I think what the devs mean is more than "shine the light at them for a second then hide", the way I remember it you could shine the light at them for a long time, and they would move really slow, and unless you got really close you would be ok. Perhaps the next step is to look into the enemy AI and see what you can get away with.

[@bodbyss]

Yeah kiting them seems like it works just fine...

[@Vokoca]

Yeah I finished the DLC recently so it must've been patched, but anytime in the stealth sections I ran into the owlks, the game gave me plenty of time to shine my light on them to kite them towards me, as well as time to realise that there always is a path at that very spot off to the side that lets you bypass them completely as they go to investigate your original location. If anything, the kiting was so easy and the paths were laid out so obviously that it never even occured to me that this was meant to be a real stealth section and not just a puzzle, since the behavior was replicable every single time. They always spawned at the same spot and walked in the same direction, and would always go investigate and there always was a secondary path just off to the side. I'm not particularly smart or good with stealth games, but this just didn't feel like a problem at all. Now I just really wonder how different the sections were before the patches.

[@theInfiniteEgg-z8i]

@@Vokocapre patch it wasn’t that much different. I think a lot of the complainers probably had Outer Wilds as their first videogame so they weren’t used to mechanics that require skill. I assume this dude went from Undertale straight to Outer Wilds, hence his confusion at navigating 3D spaces.

[@donovanbisson4988]

As someone who actually did solve both Endless Canyon and Starlit Cove with the "owlless" routes, here's my take on time crunch in Starlit Cove: You only have enough time for one of three slide reels in the Archive before your loop ends. What's interesting to me is that this is the only Forbidden Archive with three reels! The first reel I stumbled into was the report of how the inhabitants discovered you could persist after dying within the simulation. Instead of attempting a second time, I unintentionally inferred the context of the second slide reel (that you don't wake up from the alarm if you're dead), and used it to access the Archive early before I actually managed to access that reel in the first place! It may be just my experience being an unusual outlier, but the fact that two of three reels that can teach you the lesson that lets you access the Archive combined with the time crunch makes it seem to me that this may have been a developer-intended approach. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if that first slide reel I grabbed was deliberately placed such that it would be the first one I would find, though I'd have to go and check the layout to confirm it.

[@waffling0]

that is a very interesting thought process, and makes that owlless way of doing Starlit Cove seem more reasonable!

[@RaptieFeathers]

I figured that there needed to be a reason you could shut off your lantern. I also noticed that they kind of flinched if you focused the beam in their eyes, so I would blind them to lure them over, then shut it the lantern off and sneak by. I never even considered that this wouldn't have been obvious to people. Huh! (This was pre-patch)

[@kubaGR8]

I also tried doing that, but it just flat out didn't work. I'd shine the light in their eyes, cover the lantern and try to sneak around,a nd somehow they'd always know where I was and would catch me anyway. It got very annoying very quickly.

[@terenceosorio6680]

Skissue​@@kubaGR8

[@MrRubixscube]

all i'll say about this video is: imagine taking the regular entrance when your initial goal is the endless canyon... THE LAB ENTRANCE IS RIGHT THERE !!!

[@IamtheWV17]

Amen!

[@vanderkarl3927]

I did do that skip in my first playthrough, but that's probably because entering the simulation was one of the last things I learned about. I couldn't find the hull breach and didn't make the leap of logic to nap by the fire with the artifact in hand myself, so by the time I first entered the simulation, I was so familiar with the flood cycle that it just seemed natural to leverage it to my advantage. I thought it was just what you were supposed to do. My "get stuck" moment was entering the simulation itself so I didn't get stuck again on the stealth.

[@SeraphinSnecmel]

same

[@askplays]

exactly the same happened to me, getting into the simulation was the hard part.

[@luvsiclikeadog]

for the endless canyon's dark segment, i failed a stealth attempt once and then thought about any ways to work around the segment since it was like really scary. i had internalized cross-campfire travel earlier in the dlc for the cabin with the singing folk (after realizing that the occasional screaming was of the inhabitants dying from the flood and that they probably corresponded to the bodies in their respective sleeping chambers), and also made a mental note of there being an elevator from the bottom of the ravine all the way to the lodge itself only accessible after lighting up the bridge (which was my chekhov's gun the moment i saw it my first raft ride, since the other elevators had more obvious utility upon first encounter). quickly put together how i could do the lodge while its illuminated to setup the elevator safely, and then doing cross-campfire travel (with the 2nd fire since that buys more time) to bypass the segment entirely. definitely one of the most fulfilling puzzles across the game for me 🐐

[@phauxdy]

I actually got the hang of the luring and the stealth mechanics quite quick. I think there's a lesson to be learned here that the owlks are just afraid of you as you are of them, they just look scarier. They blow out your candle because they know they're all dead and don't want to lose what little shred of home and hope they've artificially created. They're the cowards, living in fear, and in order to combat it, they shroud themselves in darkness to scare you off before you can realize they're even more afraid.

[@enginerd108]

I believe the dlc was based entirely on fear, so I think the story makes sense. I agree with the idea that the strangers were nessecary. Their reactions show the most information we get from them throughout the whole game, they show how afraid the owlks are of us. They aren't cruel beasts, they are ghosts mourning a forgotten past. The fear we feel comes from their fear. I love the dlc how it is, even if it was frustrating at times. But the riverside area was the best one we had.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

honestly this just makes me want to rewatch raocow's lp of this because i'm pretty sure he _did_ just figure this out on his own. he also stumbled upon the lod glitch by complete accident, and iirc just straight-up logic'd out the death glitch too. it's likely something aided by his format of just doing a loop or two, then calling that a daily episode, since it kept stuff fresh in his mind while letting him constantly sleep on new discoveries before even more information could overwhelm him, but it's still funny to think that this funny lil' dude who's known to induce yelling at the scream when he misses obvious stuff just casually wrapped his mind around something that stumped a whole bunch of the game's fans

[@drbeeant]

This video is incredibly well timed for me. I just finished the DLC YESTERDAY, and the news that people were frustrated by the stealth confused me for a while as I watched this video. Upon further reflection, I think it was because I only really engaged with the stealth for one loop AND played the DLC with the new patch. After I got caught 8 or so times before getting to the out of bounds glitch forbidden knowledge, I just used that to thoroughly scout the other areas' stealth sections ahead of time. I did get caught a few times, but I just blamed that on myself screwing up. I was so enamored with the story and greater puzzles that I didn't even consider the frustration of the stealth gameplay (for context, I love and play many stealth games, so I suppose that makes sense). That made this video a very interesting experience for me, especially considering the timing. Great video! Glad to see you branching out a little. I hope it performs well.

[@MelodicaDude]

not to be "that guy", but yeah, i beat the DLC on the release patch with no hints or anything. perhaps there was an element of luck in what i encountered, but i found myself falling into the same discovery/exploration cycle as the base game without really hitting the hitches mentioned with the stealth. i viewed it like navigating around anglerfish, lights in the fog and all. that said, there's more dynamic traversal on foot with gravity compared to rocketing around the fog, and as you mentioned, you can lure Owelks off their patrols by just flashing your light at them. it's nice there are alternate solutions and routes, but i view the positions and environmental layout as just as much of a puzzle as any other. perhaps the darkness is a bit aggressive and makes figuring out said Owelk positions and paths difficult, but considering the Owelks all make loud footstep sounds and hold shining lantern lights themselves, i feel like the info you need HAS always been there. At least, it was in my own experience. A small final aspect to this is that, to get to where you turn off the lights, you have to first traverse the paths forward in light, so you ARE given the chance to learn the layout before stealth occurs. i can see this being why people would dislike the last room of the cove down the well, as it's easily the hardest stealth room and you didnt get to see it beforehand. this is why i say perhaps i got lucky with how i encountered it, because i realized the Owelks in that room had to take the stairs in the side while i could just hop over the banister in the middle to get a big lead on them.

[@Jilluminum]

Accidentally stumbling on the LOD glitch early is one of the most sublime feelings I've ever experienced in a video game. Just pure dopamine

[@GabrielLANSALOT-CARON]

I did too because I just wasn't able to figure out what to do. So I discovered this by trying some witchcraft

[@Jilluminum]

@@GabrielLANSALOT-CARON science!!!!!

[@キラキラくりくり頭]

I discovered that - and taking a nap way before the moment it's given to you via slides. Not because I'm smart, just because I try stupid stuff. I roasted a marshmallow and had a nap. I tried ditching the lamp and walking away. Also - the fireplace. I was like "I'll just jump in and kill myself... Oh... That's weird - it's a fake fire"

[@mathieup5024]

I figured it out and was so happy, but I was playing with a friend who berated me for playing it "wrong" and convinced me to not use it till I got the the "intended" source. I ened up doing it 2/3rds of the way through the DLC 😑

[@Jilluminum]

@@mathieup5024 i mean this in the nicest way but i hate your friend lmao

[@kaizren5775]

I just wanted to do a shout out to a youtuber that just started her channel. she is called beccabytes I believe, and she figured out the stealth sequences in the cliffside with the elevator on her own and it was pretty incredible

[@hmmmooops]

I'm going to be honest, I didn't think that there was any problem with the dlc's stealth section, though I can see how not having a foolproof 100% correct solution is different from the rest of the game. I have one objection with this video though. Bruteforcing the stealth isn't Feldsparring the game. Feldsparring the game is what Thor from Pirate Software did where he intuited or stumbled upon all three of the glitches and managed to skip *the entire horror section of the dlc*.

[@codebracker]

I think that's less feldsparing it and more gabroing through it

[@nephandi2316]

@@codebracker Between Feldspar and Gabbro, which do you think is more likely to get stupidly far away in order to build enough speed to force through the current to access Leviathe's heart ? I believe that is not how Feldspar did it, anyway

[@theInfiniteEgg-z8i]

Yeah this whole video struck me as odd… I didn’t even register that section as tough 😂

[@jixaw9383]

Not fully done watching but I still think I have the best idea of the intended way to play the stealth. You flash them with the concentrated light and then move away and do what you need. I think the hint for this is the owlks using the lantern on you simple as that. When it’s concentrated on you it’s a bright shine effect and you can’t see the owlk. They see the same thing when you do it. They have to get close to verify you’re not an owlk, you have to flash them to keep that a mystery

[@LB_]

7:37 WAIT THAT'S ME!? I'm super thankful to you for making this video, it's everything I've been wanting to say about the DLC for a long time. I'm not happy with how they patched the game, they removed some bridges that previously made Starlit Cove easy with ghost mode scouting, and also drastically reduced the difficulty of the stealth section in Endless Canyon, removing cool AI teamwork interactions in the process. That AI teamwork thing was super cool and it's a shame most people won't get to experience it now. Feels like they gave up on the puzzle stuff and let the brute force players have their way, which I guess is one way to reduce how many people have a frustrating time, but not what I would have gone with. I can see what they were going with for the light mechanics luring the AI, I just think it doesn't work very well, like you said. Great video.

[@andrew_cunningham]

Well shit, it's you. I actually had a weird moment while editing this video. I was looking for footage of the interior of the party house when the dam collapses, to see the owlk evaporate, and your channel came up in the search results. I looked through your catalogue for a while (god damn you have a lot of videos) but ultimately couldn't find what I was looking for and got it from a different channel. But that whole time, I had that comment of your in mind without realizing it was from the same person who's channel I was looking through. I later went back to get a screenshot of the comment and the realization hit me. To be honest, I don't actually remember the details of how my thoughts on the DLC evolved over time, but I think there's a good chance that comment chain you contributed to was a significant factor in putting some of these these thoughts in my head.

[@LB_]

@@andrew_cunningham Hah, kinda surreal to me! Maybe you were looking for the Yule video, but the perspective wasn't ideal there. EDIT: The Lore Explorer has some great views of it but it might've taken a while to dig through his content

[@Plo1154]

The fear is absolutely the key part of the themes and the story of the DLC, you doing the stealth segment and pushing through it against all odds in the name of curiosity mirrors the fear the Owls had to the Eye, but in the face of the same fear of the unknown, the player embraces it, while the owls turned away That being said I highly appreciate these alternative no-scare solutions to the puzzles, they helped me a lot cause I am very bad with horror, but at least that was a good enough motivation to figure those out

[@TheGuangmaster]

I did actually manage to figure out this strat. I remember thinking on how all the dream zones are very intentionally linked via the river and how the dam breaking wipes a bunch of them out proves you go to other areas after they change. So that indicated to me there should be a way to bypass them. It did take a couple tries to work out the order of operations though.

[@Bjasileus]

i honestly never realised starlight cove had a stealth element as i organicly found out about killing the hatchling on the fire, by seeing that it was because of the bells that i woke up and figuring, well they can't wake me up if i am dead. I also started with doing the endless canyon with the stealth because i figured i wouldn't have the right amount of time to do it the other way, but i did use the owlk skip for flatlands which again i figured out organicly by wondering what the hell the elevator and raft was for in the endless canyon. So after i first did the loading zone glitch thing, and figured out about viewing the secret brigde by going outside lantern range, i figured the only obstacle left was the bell in the sleepy rome, and i figured the owlks were already dead and in there, so i meditated to end the run and restarted and the first thing i did was go to endless canyon, grab the artifact there and kill myself on the fire, rest was easy.

[@tristanmiller7573]

I remember looking this puzzle up, and each walkthrough suggested a different solution with its distinct flavor of unsatisfying--from turning on reduced frights, to using tricks that you learn *after* the challenge, to just being really good at stealth. Bespoke dissatisfaction for every player. I eventually found owless from a forum post, and was convinced it was the intended way. A bitter pill to swallow: that puzzle just isn't designed good.

[@gregdan3d]

After I beat the base game, I played around 3 or 4 hours of Echoes of the Eye. I got frustrated with it- never felt like I was making progress, and repeatedly having to redo half a dozen minor actions to get back to the point I was at, like the worst parts of Majora's Mask except with jumpscares. So I quit. And I never went back to it, even though I did love the original game and wanted to experience the continuation of its story. Anyway, I ignored the spoiler warnings, knowing exactly what I was getting into, and you spelled it out perfectly just the same. Imagine my surprise when my frustration with the DLC is not only vindicated, but felt by tons of other players of the game.

[@chromatica__]

mun Kekan San jumpscare

[@normalrachael]

Exact same feeling here.

[@MDJ287]

7:30 I entered the Endless Canyon archive that way on my first run! It felt really cool to have discovered this on my own and then have the knowledge from that archive make the other segments easier afterwards!

[@CrispyGFX]

I figured that the ending solution of EOTE required you to have fundamental knowledge of when the different groups of Owlks die at different times in order to be in the right places at the right time. Getting to the secret areas in each of the levels was just another branch of that same line of thinking.

[@subprogram32]

I suppose that *technically,* the Starlit Cove Owlless route only needs to be done once (sorta), but it absolutely requires the player to have figured out at least one other archive first AND be able to intuit a couple things about the nature of the archives to do so. Namely, if the player knows which reel is the one that contains the glitch, aka the major progress mechanic (I believe the glitch symbol is the same for every reel?), AND they figured out from the other archive(s) that the local glitch of the area makes said archive much easier to access, they can go in post-tower collapse, grab the glitch reel, absorb the juicy info, find out that the alarms don't work if you die, and then next loop, kill yourself on the fire and just casually walk past the Cove alarms while the place is still lit so you can read the other two reels in peace. Like, 99.9% of players aren't going to do this, but there *technically* is a smart way to bypass this area with minimal inconveniance for the actual geniuses among us at least. XD

[@subprogram32]

(Furthermore, a look at the prisoner chamber prominantly features the alarms in one path of course, so it's more than reasonable for a player to see these same alarms in the cove and figure out they are the key to bypassing this archive's defences easily. Obviously realising you have to go for the glitch reel in that very same archive is a bigger leap, but still possible to make)

[@ChemoorVodka]

I ended up figuring out how to bypass the endless canyon stealth segment without even using the dock elevator because I figured out the lamp drop “glitch” before I was supposed to and used the invisible bridge to bypass it entirely. At the time I felt like it was weird that the only puzzley way to solve that area required the thing that it was supposed to teach you about, glad to find out there was another way. I did end up waiting for the tower to fall for that one though and totally agree it doesn’t feel like an intended solution, you just don’t have enough time once that happens for it to feel like you’re supposed to be doing that.

[@Capri42PRG]

I came to the conclusion that if you're afraid of the owlks its because you don't understand them. Pretty powerful message really

[@theInfiniteEgg-z8i]

Yikes that’s embarrassing for this guy. His favourite game (real game, not GameMaker Toolkit game😂) and he didn’t even pay enough attention to the story to get the intended point😢

[@thejollyjam9269]

Played only on post-patch, can confirm the streamlining made me more aware of baiting the Elks, and I only turned on reduced frights for the final bit of Cove to make the AI easier to juke. Puts me in mind of Gloomwood where stealth is a core mechanic but through understanding tools and mechanics you can make the hunters dance to you tune. Also, NOTHING tops the dread I have of the Dark Bramble, fear of underwater monsters is in me since the Mario 64 Eel, I’ll take the owls any day.

[@specialagentdustyponcho1065]

I played it with no community interaction or spoilers whatsoever and figured the proper "owless run" method out myself lol. I never knew people were playing it otherwise until watching this video.

[@theInfiniteEgg-z8i]

I never did it “owlless” I just… moved them around by luring them… this video is baffling, how could he not figure it out? 😂

Just finished the dlc here and luckily accidentally / understood all 3 glitches before even going to their respective forbidden archives. Completely skipped the stealth cause I assumed it was meant to show me that there was indeed another way. I'm not sure what the devs thought but really enjoyed this dlc nonetheless.

[@MBgov1133]

As someone who just finished the game for the first time with the update patches, I don't think skill was involved at all. Once I realised the Owlks all had consistent positioning, the game became less scary and more about planning out a route than being stealthy. In a way, it stopped being truly "scary" and just turned into another puzzle to solve-so I'd argue the update DID indeed support what the devs originally intended. I don't think your experience was "incorrect", however. In a game as open as Outer Wilds, I think everyone's personal experience is just as valid as the next.

[@Jexpler]

So there is actually a way to do a stealth free run of the starlit cove that I learned from a youtube video and pulled off recently on a replay of EotE. It's almost completely the same as what you did, except there is one change that gives you more time to do all of the reels. Disable the Ash Twin Project. Turning off the ATP gives you two extra minutes of time to do stuff. After those extra two minutes, you will get a game over screen since the time loop doesn't exist, however you can load your game again, and the reels you watched will be in your ship log.

[@sepiar7682]

Actually such a great video! Agree wholeheartedly that they should have doubled down on the puzzle aspect of the stealth, though I do still love the themes of Echoes of the Eye and can see why they did what they did, especially because their patches do at least turn the stealth more puzzley now

[@Nex_0906]

I think the point is that we're trying to undertand different cultures in both base game and the DLC. Base game is based on pure curiosity, because that's a core part of most Nomai's. On the other hand in the DLC the focus is fear. After watching a couple friends play I realized using the light in the right moments to guide you and use the times you're about to die to face your fear and at least take a look at the area was the best thing to do. Also the fact that after the patch you have to "interact" with the owls to move them away instead of just hiding from them leans more into this idea and the overall message of the story. I actually like the DLC better for this reason, it's like a twist but it still feel like Outer Wilds. It uses fear as a tool and as storytelling, just like curiosity in base game.

[@Klui_]

I can't watch the vid cause I still haven't played the game but I will let it play to support in the algorithm, God knows youtube hates variety

[@theInfiniteEgg-z8i]

Wouldn’t bother, he got confused and got mad at his own confusion.

[@fleentstones117]

I accidentally figured out the lantern thing early and that trivialized most of the DLC for me. I'm sad I didn't get that "YOU COULD DO THIS THE WHOLE TIME?" moment like I did with the raft and the dying at the fire, but it made the stealth sections so much less scary, and I was grateful for that.

[@IamtheWV17]

I had the torch, and the forever sleep spoiled for me. I had a friend also playing, and we accidentally discussed how he didn't think to sleep at the fire. 😅 I think I watched one KZbin video after a tonne of frustration only to immediately rage quit KZbin when I saw them put the lantern down once.

[@GjubzTyme]

Mollystars jumpscare got me good LMAO, Great video Andrew love the branching out!

[@Sef_Era]

I found the simulation *way* sooner than I was supposed to, and then spent quite a while walking around in the ‘darkness’.

[@Moleculor]

The unfortunate thing about pitch black stealth being the intended solution is that people with aphantasia almost certainly can't complete these sequences. It's hard to navigate a pitch black area when you can't picture the area in your mind. Yes, these people also have a problem navigating their own homes in pitch darkness. I have a close friend who will likely be unable to finish the DLC if she ever plays it.

[@chrisheartman9263]

Wow, I didn't think about it. You're absolutely right. As a person who has a very vivid imagination and very good spacial memory, this sounds like a nightmare. And the DLC already sounds like a nightmare to me (I would do owlless strat).

[@mathieup5024]

I don't have Aphantasia, but my spatial awareness/memory is *awful*. I'd have this clear picture of the DLC rooms in my head, and then I'd kill the light and try to judge my position in that mental image, and I was *never correct*. Every time I turned on the light or got caught or fell off a cliff I was somewhere completely different then I thought. It was so frustrating 🥲

[@leandrohsilveira]

Oh, I'm kinda proud that I figured out this solution to avoid the strangers in endless canyon.

[@CODENAMEDERPY]

8:25 NOO! Not the CATBOI PEBBLES!

[@Benshamman]

I played the entire of EotE after the patch mentioned in this video. For the endless canyon I just drew the entire map on paper while in the light over several loops, realized I need to grow some balls, grew some balls and flew myself at the endless canyon until, looking back on it, got really lucky. For the hidden gorge, I realized that the Owlks slowly follow me and whenever they do follow me, I can just circle around on a separate path. All I did for the hidden gorge was shine my light on the cave Owlk while far away, have him follow me while shining my light on him repeatedly to verify he was where I wanted him to be (away from chokepoint) and ran past. In the underground section, I analyzed the room without the lantern glitch and noticed I can jump past the guard when he is on the end of the path away from the lights, I used the audio queues to figure out where he was to do it with my lantern light off. In the starlit cove, I followed the Owlks with my lantern off the entire time basically behind them the whole time (I was surprised they didn't hear my footsteps), using the owlks light to know where he was. This all happened before the endless canyon stuff. Took me 30 hours to beat the DLC and I don't know how it took me that long but it was the first single player horror game that I beat. I was not frustrated at all with the mechanics and was amazed by everything I learned and each mistake taught me something knew.

[@helpers1]

Almost my exact thinking after I beat the dlc loved it but what the heck was with that one section I actually did do the other sections without the mechanical stealth but with the one you can’t (I forgot the name) you can just jump while walking past the bell thingy which stops you from slowing down which is definitely not intended but I got to beat the dlc without any scary scooby doo chases so yipee for me I guess

[@Terrahex1]

7:30 Yes, I knew you could do this. I figured it out the first time I played lol! Then, I learned about the digital world and used that to scout the other dark sections

[@broomietunes5655]

i feel obligated to shout out my other two favorite knowledge-based unlock games in case anyone who loves outer wilds sees this and hasnt heard of them, Tunic and the La-Mulana series. getting information that drastically changes the route you take through the game on the second time through is one of the greatest mechanics ever invented and i wish more games used it. hope this comment helps someone out there discover some new potential favorites

[@SeraphinSnecmel]

Thanks! I knew about Tunic and it‘s been on my wish list for a while, but La-Mulana is completely new to me c:

[@quantumblauthor7300]

Hypnospace outlaw

[@pinecubes]

rain world (not downpour)

[@hastur2905]

supposedly Void Stranger too

[@AzariahWolf]

If you jumped into the fire you could have said "4:20 - Blaze it, and by it I mean me."

[@angrymagnets]

My experience with the DLC was really funny. For one, I was playing while my cousin (who absolutely loves outer wilds) watched, which made the would've been frustrating stealth sections rather funny as I cheesed the AI (post patch stealth sections). What was even funnier though, is that I realized the wake up glitch because the first time I went to sim world I did it by dying in the fire and just assumed that's how you were supposed to do it. When I got to the prisoner room for the first time, I was able to cross the bridge guarded by sirens with no issue. I eventually figured out you could indeed just rest, and be woken up by sirens, I put two and two together, and was able to finish the DLC without ever completing one of the sim puzzles

[@casualbird7671]

Just wanted to say, I am so extremely happy you used my favorite track during the compilation at the beginning. I really wish that incredible full trailer theme occurred somewhere in the game, but part of it worked well enough for the big bang! Lovely video, thank you

[@janbulusek6172]

The worst part of the stealth sections was not the stealth nor the horror. It was the overwhelming darkness that totally butchered the level navigation for me, which got especially frustrating when I was evading the owls and got stuck behind an unseen obstacle/fell into a water puddle.

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr]

Yes, same here. I actually like stealth games, but the total darkness made this a uniquely frustrating experience in terms of being able to navigate and understand the world. Coupled with the fact that every time I got caught or fell in the water, I had to restart the entire loop from scratch (didn't discover I could doze instead of die until very late in the game). I was very relieved once I discovered the OOB glitch since I could finally explore the world properly.

[@purrfectname]

The only Owlks I wasn't able to avoid entirely were the two guarding the Starlit Cove forbidden archives. Though the game was still way too scary....

[@Eisegesis623]

The problem with a game as good as Outer Wilds is that it becomes very difficult to actually examine its shortcomings. Despite being a flawless masterpiece in so many ways (I am a fellow member of the "love it the usual amount" crowd), it's also possible to start noticing things once you're on your 50th Blind Let's Play. Little things that people notice, or things they try that *should* make sense but weren't implemented for whatever reason. As an example, the memory statues, despite being so important lore-wise are almost completely unexplained. They're interesting enough mechanically that you could have based the entire game around them, but all they end up doing in the gameplay is...existing. You find that one room on Giant's Deep, see how some of them have their eyes open and closed, and that's it. From a game design and psychological standpoint, I almost find these cracks to be more interesting than the experience of playing the game. In almost every case, addressing them would obliterate the careful balance of the game. Outer Wilds would almost certainly be worse if it got distracted by the memory statues, or by making the low-res areas of planets look better, or giving the Hearthian townsfolk more depth on subsequent loops, or by introducing the Nomai a little differently to encourage the late-game psychological investment in them sooner (the contrast between a player's initial fascination with them vs. the Stranger is night-and-day), or by going more in-depth with the gravity crystals. *It would all harm the experience.* There's so much to learn from this game by what it did right. And even what it "missed" it *still* did right, or at least so well that the opportunity costs are worth it. I adore Echoes of the Eye arguably more than the base game, but it has more actual objective flaws at the same time. I put it down for like 6 months, I was so drained by the stealth segments, and like you there was a KZbin thumbnail that kind of spoiled just enough to give me the "hope" to get back in the puzzle-solving mindset. (It was the render glitch, but I saw it so briefly that I had no idea what it was or how to do it. But it was enough to start experimenting!) The opportunity costs they chose for EotE were more risky, and even though they paid off it's still worth wondering what could have been done differently to avoid these sorts of player disconnections. Anyway.... great video. More than anything, you squeezed through that narrow line where it's possible to critique the game without offending literally everyone who (rightfully) loves it. And that is TOUGH to do.

[@quantumblauthor7300]

Yeah yeah yeah

[@Mrmarch444]

They… did base the game around the statues? Did you actually play the game?

[@Eisegesis623]

@@Mrmarch444 I meant more the statues themselves, not their role in the Ash Twin Project. We don't really get any information on how they record memories or why they chose statues in the first place. Which would absolutely have derailed the intended mysteries of the game, so again it's good they didn't--but it's also interesting enough that they could have based a huge chunk of it on the ideas of memory and consciousness and inter-species neuroscience (which also comes into play with the simulation in the DLC). It's in the background for the most part (other than the distinction about whether it's actually "you" being sent back in time), and it was a good choice to leave it there...but it's also cool. Telling a story is just as much about what you don't tell, you know? It's how you focus in on what's relevant. It's also interesting to think about, is all.

[@theInfiniteEgg-z8i]

Did you… not pay attention? The statues are explained ingame. You should replay it if you missed that ❤ “How does it work” is entirely irrelevant.

[@Luna-wt9oy]

As some others comments are saying, I saw zero owlks in starlit cove. That section was done just by dying in the fireplace with the lantern. For endless canyon, the eureka is mostly noticing the bridge you turn on makes path for where you want to go AND for the deck. Then the whole mission impossible is deductible.

[@taanwallbanks9841]

You learn how to die in fireplaces at starlit cove though. Unless you're experimenting, which the developers didn't want you to do because you could skip everything otherwise. by that logic you could just say use the invisible bridge for endless canyon Endless canyon is deductible.

[@Luna-wt9oy]

@@taanwallbanks9841 oh right! Good point, didn't notice that. Now I remember I didn't actually learn anything new there. At some point I thought about how they were "dead and alive", and that I probably could do the same if died with the lantern on. "Well, no way to do that. Unless, maybe if I.." I didn't even try to go there before because I thought the alarm would wake me up as the other one I tried, only now I know that one was different.

[@8BitPyro]

Honestly the best sponsor you could get, I've been watching the development of RAM for a while now, very cool that they are sponsoring other youtubers.

[@cheeseitpuffsthe4orthandahalf]

It’s not a sponsor, he’s making the game

[@jimbo491]

Really shows how far Andrew Cummingham has come. Now he’s getting paid the big Bucks from triple A game RAM: Really Awesome Movies for the PC! Let’s go, Andrew 🎉😀 #grind #youtube

[@Yuti640]

What makes this even worse is that they perfectly designed the first dream section around being outer wildey, if the stealth sections were optional, the first area would be a tutorial by being an easy stealth section that leads to a COMPLETELY insurmountable obstacle, forcing you into thinking about a way around it, all they really had to do was make the other two areas impossible to stealth through then make section 2 no stealth more existent, likely easier than section 3 no stealth but harder than section 1 no stealth, to make each area more difficult than the last

[@ItsJayDee]

Aww yeah I'm a real RAMhead!

[@burgerminus9390]

RAMming out !

[@The_Dealmaker992]

RAAAAH I'M RAMMING OUT🐏 🔥🔥

[@autonomousanonymous6310]

who up ramming they head rn

[@Yesnomu]

I was completely in your boat, I got very frustrated with what seemed to be required stealth and looked up a guide to bypass it. This is definitely something that could have used some tutorializing on their behavior, though it might have gone against the developer intentions. I agree that it was kind of just a weird fit with the established themes, and I would have preferred spooky feels but no actual fail states for the mechanics.

[@The1Immortal]

I accidentally got the lantern light sphere thing before I was supposed to on accident, trying to see if the bell totem thing couldn't see me without the lantern.

[@SANinja72]

I always found it cool that of the three areas, one has to be worked around, one has to be stealthed and the other can be done either way.

[@joshuabowman4702]

Dang now I gotta play Outer Wilds to watch this video.

[@runevarkevisser7289]

Great video! Glad to see an interesting and fresh Outer Wilds perspective, I think you had a lot of good points

[@ShayyTV]

babe wake up new andrew cunningham video

[@404leafclover]

Loved this video!! Outer Wilds seems like a super interesting game. Honestly could listen to you talk about anything in circles and enjoy it.

[@cannedpotato2]

0/10, video did not last exactly 22 minutes

[@ALBERGALARGA_]

2:45 Yeah, me too, I was SO close to looking up a guide, I rage quited 4 times before I could actually beat the DLC, and in the end, I think it might've even been better. For me is not so much the horror aspect, I've never been that scared of fiction, irl I completley freak up if say even a fly gets on the back of my neck but when I'm playing or watching a movie it's like my brain's always expecting the jumpscares or something, that's why, even thou I've always really liked the stories and all I can't really get into horror all that much. The thing is, when you get rid of the fear and add both the fact that I'm really bad at any game I play and that I hate boredom with a burning passion, when you put me in a place where I need to evade this thing that's faster than me and will kill me as soon as it detects me and add a complete lack of orientation and feedback I'm left to wander aimlessly through darkness for 5 hole minutes before realising I've been stuck in a corner looking downwards the hole time and all that builds up to be extremley frustrating, so much so that I barely finished the DLC and when I did, that answer I was so desperately searching for wasn't even exciting anymore. BTW this was all after the patch (literally today), and not only did I discovered the "lod" glitch before I was intended to and used it extensively (didn't help that much to know the path if I didn't know where I was walking when dark tbh), I did discover after banging my head to the wall for a very long time how to do both the "first area" (Idk how it's called in english, sorry) and the canyon without stealth, yet the tower was still horrible.

[@shoehornn]

absolutely hegelian. on the first hand i detest this and it strays from all mithraic values, your analytical thought process is precisely the tool required for solving a structured and invariable stealth puzzle yet it seems to be disregarded when applied to such endeavour. mysterious. on the third and other hand i was not aware of the owlless possibility but found it really interesting. nice

[@nathanaeltayebi1698]

I discovered that simply getting too """close""" from the fire in the tower to the point you wont wake up afterward make you like the dead owlk, unable to wake up from the bell that would ring if you passed on the bridge. My biggest problem with the DLC is how you needed to solve the puzzle in order to get the answer while in tbe basic game you could always piece together a solution with different foreign informations. Its a great DLC that control your mind amazingly well, you're scared of the dark and the Owlk so you wont drop your lantern because you need it but if you actually do you can see way better instead, this DLC is full of these backwards thinking and thats great.

[@Ethan-lx1vv]

I believe that when I first played this, my experience was very close to what you considered to be the "intended" experience. Specifically, while I did not learn the LOD trick the intended way, I learned of it very early on by accident, and used it throughout the entire experience. And, due to a combination of me being very, very easily scared and also me being too stuck-up to use reduced frights, I had avoided the stealth the entire time just because I wanted to stay away from the owlk as much as humanly possible. And yes, I did the stealth skips mentioned in the video. For the latter one though, I actually failed to see it fully the first time, using the owlless strategy, so I did stealth properly the second time. Even then, though, it felt like a puzzle sense the "solution" was viewing their patrol routes in LOD mode beforehand, and then going normally and use the lights in the background to find their silhouettes. Use their silhouettes to determine where they are in their patrol routes, and time it to get past them when none of them are looking, with your artifact concealed the whole time. This was stealth technically, but figuring it out was closer to a puzzle then anything, with a "Eureka!" moment and everything. I should mention at 7:16 I also actually just closed my artifact, walked in the dark for a bit until I could see outside, and then used the ground outside as a reference frame to guide my movements, making it so that at no point could the owlk even get a glimpse. The entire DLC was very in line with the rest of the game, because it just felt like a very scary puzzle game. I was certain that was the intended experience. Learning now that it wasn't, I am a little mad because that was genuinely fun and made the DLC a 10/10 for me. I would have quit the game before I ever decided to purposely agro them and manipulate their AI.

[@IRules2244]

7:37 yes, this was how I did it. I went back and played the stealth section again. I like my solution better.

[@IRules2244]

But the other stealth skip isn’t very well designed

[@Eiroth]

For me, the thematic tie to illuminating the darkness more than makes up for the clunkiness of the stealth segments. There's something poetic about claiming for yourself the courage and determination that the Owlks lacked. However, I absolutely see your point. This isn't really a revelation that came to me as I was playing the game, it's an interesting thematic connection I made much later when listening to the same interview you mentioned. Perhaps this was an unavoidable flaw in the way the DLC was developed, since it was essentially birthed from a multitude of unfinished ideas from the base game. Had the designs of the Owlks not been set in stone, had the idea of ghosts in the machine not been left as a relic, then maybe they could have designed a more natural and cohesive method of delivering their central thesis. As it stands, I don't see any effective diagetic way of conferring that piece of information to the player, with no dead nomai or living explorers around to give helpful hints (assuming the Owlks aren't kind enough to leave a helpful picture guide to the flaws in their patrol routes) Great video!

[@Rayo75]

For some reason, I came up with the owless solution before thinking of attempting a stealth section, the only stealth section to archives I couldn't skip was the one where you descend some spiral stairs in the middle of the town. If you activate the bridge on the first world and then come back to it from a raft after the first town gets flooded, there's no one there at the invisible fire archives to stop you (although I had unintentionally discovered them from the other side and skipped the whole sequence). My friend who did all archives sneaking past owls was SO mad watching my gameplay live on discord xD

[@joshuatilton9735]

I think you miss the point there, and I completely disagree with you. They “simplified” the Elks’ movement by placing them directly in the path/chokepoint - that discourages people from even attempting it, because it’s not a timing issue anymore. It makes much more sense that your original hypothesis harmonizes with the base game - you don’t brute force your way through anything, you simply learn the trick and are no longer afraid to complete the sections. I completed each of the hidden archives owlless without the wiki because that’s the way the game designers intended it. I definitely knew the devs wouldn’t force a stealth section on us, and they didn’t. Yeah, I totally disagree with your conclusion.

[@velocityraptor9270]

i watched someone solve these solutions on there own with the new patches and you really have to trust the developers with this game and i think that is the hardest thing to get used to. we are so used to having to brute force our way through solutions since they sadly seemed to be easier with other games that you don't even think twice about it with outer wilds and that is so incredibly wrong. i do think the patches helped encourage people to find the proper solutions now that I've seen the changes in action and i am truly impressed with how they went about it and the fact they are still this dedicated to implementing the best way to bring about the proper experience.

[@thomasmizrahi]

I used another way to get into the starlit cove archives. After you turn off the light in that hidden room, walk to the right past the light totem thingy and there's a balcony. If you jump out of that balcony you'll fall on a bridge, keep walking forward and you'll get to the elevator you mentioned that leaves you on the ground floor. I walked past the stranger before the circular stairs, there's a double path made specifically for avoiding that one, then Feldspar-ed my way through the other two in the room below.

[@hamster2u396]

Echoes of the Eye gave me the biggest jumpscare of my life when I got jumped by an owl guy where I didn’t expect one to be and the biggest aha moment of my life when I accidentally discovered that one lamp mechanic (which resulted in me apparently skipping the stealth section because I found the invisible bridges.

[@eal-ectric5196]

For the starlit cove bit,why jump into the water and enter through a different fireplace? Why not just turn off the lights,jump into the water and hop back in at the same totem,doesnt that send you to basically the same starting point?

[@dawnfull67]

For the starlit cove there is an easier solution to not go through stealth. You just have to go in dead. Then you don't need to extinguish the light at all to go to the archive !

[@ReavoEnd]

I *did* figure out "operation owlkless," and yeah it was a really special and satisfying epiphany after failing at the stealth section at least twice, then moving on looking for other places I could move forward. I captured my eureka moment here at this timestamp: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gobKeKquYreYg6c

[@NiccoDubs]

Love your editing style! On my playthrough, the first library I reached was Endless Canyon, and I think that I just used the invisible bridges somehow. I didn't even realize that Endless Canyon was one of the scarier parts of the game bc I never went into the mansion when the lights were off. For Starlit Cove, I was indeed too scared to try the stealth, so I waited for the tower to fall to get past the Owlks.

[@DarththeMarth]

My solution for the frustrating stealth segments was the "Brighter Dreams" mod which lets you make the stealth segments not completely pitch black. Being able to see the Owlks and navigate your environment, even dimly, without giving your position away to them was a huge game changer that made it possible for me to play these segments the way the devs apparently intended. It makes them actually feel like puzzles instead of terrifying/frustrating mechanical challenges. I really wish this was one of the effects of Reduced Frights mode.