Did Bach Write ANY Lute Music?? || The Great Misconception ft. Paul O'Dette, Nigel North, Eliot Fisk

[@oskardemari-jones1147]

The E major partita works beautifully on lute in F, you can play it with most of the original bass notes and voicings. Instrumentation was not as strict in the baroque, when Bach wrote “for the lute” or even “for the cello” it’s not the same as a later composer, say Brahms, specifying an instrument. In Bach’s case it would’ve been perfectly normal to arrange and transcribe cello works for harpsichord, violin works for lute, whatever. Someone like Sylvius Weiss most likely could have done this on the fly, without making a tablature to play from. Although Bach cared about specific sounds for specific moods and evocative imagery (woodwinds for pastoral, etc), the baroque idea of instrumentation didn’t assign each instrument the kind of essential character we now do, they were largely means to an end.

[@luminosstudio9357]

that was... quick

[@justinludeman8424]

I thought, reading Stanley Yates and Frank Koonce among others, that at least some of the 'Lute Suites' were written exclusively for the Lute whereas most of them were transcribed/transposed for the lute from other sources (Violin, Cello etc). For example, movements 1-4 of BWV 997 (Lute Suite II) were likely written for the Lute - or so I thought; interestingly the initial motif of the Sarabande resembles the final chorus of St Matthew's Passion. What I'm hearing here is that no-one really knows definitively 😅 that NO music was specifically composed for the instrument by Bach, especially given his friendships/collaborations with eminent lutenists of the day (Weiss, Kropfgans, Baron...). Anyway, this has piqued my interest and I'll have to potter around and dig deeper into this. Whatever the case, playing his music on guitar and listening to other lutenists/guitarists play his music for keyboard/Lute/Cello/Violin is a joyous pleasure. Thanks 🖖🏼🇦🇺😊

[@guitarsupport]

At 08.23 there is done a conclusion about Bachs Prelude, Fuga and Allegro, BWV 998: The conclusion to E.Fisks comments says that it is not written for the lute. On the exisiting authograph by Bach himself, we read "pour la luth o cembal". Which means: For the lute or harpsichord. Why is this not mentioned? Why would Bach have written the word lute if he would not have the intention that it could be played on that Instrument also? So the conclusion at 08.23 needs to be corrected.

[@steadyeddie3251]

Very informative. Thanks for this video!

[@Hotsk]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the C Minor Prelude, BWV 999. In my Peters piano edition it says, "Composed for the lute" and most pianists believe exactly that. Of course, just casually looking at the score one can see that Bach obviously composed it for the Lautenwerck. And I certainly agree with what you said about transposing a work to another key for a different instrument. I play the C minor prelude, BWV 999 on both the piano (in the original key of C minor) and the guitar (transposed to D minor); they actually sound like two different pieces (even when I correctly play an F in the bass [an octave higher on the guitar] in bar 23)--nearly all guitar transcriptions, including mine, just incorrectly repeat the E pedal tone in that bar--it still sounds like a different piece on the guitar than on the piano.

[@VoicesofMusic]

Agree in general and I personally like bar 23 :)

[@callenclarke371]

Provocative, on-point, and authoritative. Well done.

[@VoicesofMusic]

Musicologist David Tayler (me) says yes, Bach wrote multiple works for lute.

[@ryan.1990]

You could have written a comment out explaining your argument but decided to assume we'd just take your word on it. Strange 🫠

[@Renshen1957]

J S Bach had a student who played Lute, the younger Krebs. The Lautenwerk quote also refers to 4' stop (strings were metal), when employed with the gut strings, it could imitate the lute. There's a prelude in C minor which had inscribed Pour la luth. The E minor Lute Suite has a low BB isn't playable on a keyboard. There are Lute pieces of Bach that are also Viola da Gamba works.

[@jillatherton4660]

"The best crab in the brook."

[@codonauta]

There is a strong sign that Bach composed those BWV for lute, even he had written in keyboard score. Look at bass. He is dealing with the bass around the central C of piano, an octave below, and suddenly the bass 'falls' two octaves. He comes back to that higher register and again falls down to that very low notes. If you play the pieces in a piano or harpsichord those big leaps are very strange, and happens because was thought for an instrument with that particularity, the lute.

[@brandonacker]

"Strong evidence?" I'm holding a lute as we speak and have to say that this is not evidence at all. It's just as easy on a keyboard to drop the octave. I would argue it's much easier because your right hand can comfortably sustain notes while the left hand reaches down. The lutenist has to play the top notes with their fingers and reach a great distance with their thumb to reach the basses. Meanwhile, the lute physically cannot play BWV 1006a in the key it was written in.... hmmm

[@PheresMusic]

​@@brandonackersadly no one wants to accept that for some reason...

[@williamlovering973]

I already assumed that the works talked about in the video were probably not intended for lute, but there was very little mention of BWV 997. This is the most likely of the lute suites to have actually been written for the lute and I would have liked to have heard more about it

[@josephhernandez3087]

They should've put robert barto to speak. My favorite lutenist.

[@davidebortolai]

Bach era un genio ed era in grado di suonare qualunque strumento anche il liuto naturalmente. E' triste e scorretto affermare che non suonasse anche il liuto (non possiamo saperlo)! Diverso e' il discorso delle opere rimaste... in questo caso si possono fare delle supposizioni piu' o meno fondate. Fondamentalmente penso che le ore passate insieme al suo amico Weiss li abbiano visti duettare a due liuti con grande gioia.

[@loiseaunoir1021]

Did he write music for the lute, but does this really matter? Did he play the lute? I don't see why not and aaybe he loved to toy around with it. We can do whatever we like with Bach's music for it belongs to mankind now. I love Bach's works for lute and I've adapted a few pieces for the electric bass & those are the pieces I like the most, they'e so much fun to play & challenging too. BWV 995 is my favourite as all of the preludes from all the suites.

[@kraftwerk974]

Didn't know Woody Allen knew so much about Bach 😆🤙🤙

[@j5555785]

The open tuning and barr effect on the guitar does a service to Bachs music vs the limits of the bowed instruments - which merely visits the bass line and leaves it behind when the melody sings. As we all know, Bachs baselines are the foundation of his approach to story telling, and I posit that the guitar may have the upper hand in the crossover works like BWV 1006a and dare I say 1007. (Side not - Segovia's bass injections are questionable to say the least). Conversely, the bowed instrument performer is forced to really sing the bass line in light of the temporary sound it is aloud, and the fretted performer must learn to give the bass its due prioritized presence - and when the fretted performer gives honor to the bass line, they have the harmonic advantage...... in my opinion.

[@jean-yvesPrax]

In the same topic, I have a VERY PROVOCATIVE question : Do you share with me the feeling that the partita 1004, and especially the very famous chaconne, was written for the violin, but IS MORE SUITED for the lute or the guitar ? The chaconne is written in D minor/major/minor and often implies chords with 4 notes, obliging the violin player to break the chords - this gives an affect that can be great (distress, immense sadness, anger) but finish to be boring - when the lute can chose to break or not the chord. In particular, in the beginning of the second part, in D major, the music very polyphonic (sounds like a Bach's choral) and beautiful when played smooth, quiet and gentle... and again the lute or guitar can propose this different color. I recommend a KZbin recording of the chaconne by Petra Poláčková on a 10 courses guitar, it's impressive.

[@wernerretief4569]

I wonder how widespread the skill of transposition was in the Baroque. It a skill that can certainly be practiced . It is particularly an organistic skill. The ability to play a chorale a few tones lower or higher at sight. Or even transposing an entire sonata or concerto at sight... Very useful skill to have. Also in fugues in canons being able to immediately go a fifth higher or a fourth lower.

[@rickjensen2717]

The conclusions are guess work at best.

[@driss409]

Damn, I'm a guitarist and was following the piano channel without knowing this one existed! Awesome content, will be binge watching your videos :D

[@AB3632]

Ok so when we listen to so-called "lute music by Bach", what are we actually listening to? Keyboard pieces by Bach played on a lute? Music for lute that Bach wrote down but didn't compose himself? I was still kind of confused after all the explanation.

[@mirceagogoncea]

Good question - of the two you mentioned, it's closer to the first option! All the Bach "lute" works are definitely original Bach compositions. However, they were written on the Lautenwerck rather than the Lute. Whether they were intended to be played on the Lute or Lautenwerck is unclear - the music actually works better for a keyboard instrument and is rather unidiomatic for the lute. In some cases (like the BWV 998 PFA and the BWV 1000 Fugue), we do actually know that lute transcriptions were made by others, and we have a pretty good guess about the author of said transcriptions. So basically, yes, anytime you are listening to any solo lute work by Bach, you are listening to a transcription of an original Bach work made by someone else.

[@AB3632]

@@mirceagogoncea I see. Thanks for answering!

[@Mignarda]

@@mirceagogoncea "However, they were written for the Lautenwerck rather than the Lute." That statement states as fact something that is still in question in the world of musicology, and your next sentence in fact contradicts the statement. Yes, Bach played the Lautenwerck and owned a few of these instruments, but he also owned a lute. Yes, there was a rather carefree collation of Bach's "lute" works when the original Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis was published in 1950, and we might very well question whether some of the works are really for the lute. Yes, some of the works are less than idiomatic for the d-minor tuned lute, but much of Bach's work is quite demanding-the solo violin sonatas and partitas for instance. Yes, some of the lute works are transcriptions, but we can't say for certain that Bach did or did not intend this piece or that piece to be played on the lute. In fact, his own arrangement of the cello suite that is BWV 995, “Piéces pour la luth/ á /Monsieur Shouster /par /J.S. Bach,” states very clearly what it is, for whom, and for which instrument. My point is that many modern players have decided that Bach's music that has been designated for the lute (by 19th- and 20th-century scholars) can't possibly be for the instrument as we know it, and Bach couldn't possibly have played the works himself. Several 20th-century violin virtuosos insisted that Bach could not have played his own solo violin works, but CPE Bach wrote that his father played the violin with a clear, strong tone into an advanced age. Just because a modern lutenist is required to minimally alter "standard" tuning and work very hard on the music does not prove that the music is not for the lute. Check out the newish recordings by Evangelina Mascardi and then tell me that the music is unconvincing on the lute.

[@RobMacKillop1]

@@MignardaHello, friend. Further to what you have said, I’d like to add that when Jacob Lindberg recorded his Complete Bach for the lute, he chose to use alternate tunings which existed in Bach’s time - see Reusner and others. He said they worked well for the most part, but there is no tuning that will account for every note, or make these works easier. BTW, I agree: Evangelina Mascardi is at the forefront of Bach on the lute.

[@lachi1905]

@@Mignarda Right. And as far as BWV 995 concern, the upper staff is not written in soprano, as Paul said, but in tenor clef, as can be seen in the screenshot shown in the video. This was not usual for keybord music and toghether with the statement at the beginning, it makes very clear, that this music was written for the lute.

[@CarreNoire]

Most of the 20th century composers who wrote famous pieces for classical guitar did not know how to play it, if you look at the manuscripts, they will be strikingly different from the final version. Nevertheless, they wrote for the guitar, there is no doubt about that.

[@Renshen1957]

The Lute Harpsichord also had a four choir. There’s also an e minor suite for lute, and the c minor prelude which has the Pour La Lute which was been included in the keyboard preludes. E major Prelude from the solo E partita become the Organ obligato for Sinfonia to the Cantata Number 29.

[@picksalot1]

Wonderful, informative video! Everything I learn about Bach helps make me a better musician. I'll be watching more of your videos. Thanks

[@jean-yvesPrax]

Excellent video, very well documented. All music from JSB attributed to lute is beautiful, but sometimes JSB forgot that on a keyboard, should it be a lautenwerk, they play with 10 fingers, when on a lute we use 4 only !!! I all agree with Nigel North saying that, when you play a piece of music to an other instrument that the one it was written for, you MUST carefully ensure what key is the more suited - "syncretic" - for your instrument, and don't hesitate to transpose : Lute especially is very sensitive to key, due to harmonics and "sympathy" with open bass strings, and temperament issues. A 3# key in A Major by example on a renaissance tuned Lute or archlute (in G) will be a nightmare - should you transpose it one tone lower and it becomes very smooth and beautiful. The TrauerOde written in E minor, (2#) is more playable specially on a baroque tuned lute (in D minor)

[@Mignarda]

As per usual, there are some misconceptions being spewed here. Bach knew full well how the lute and lute tablature works, and he even used keyboard tablature to save space at the bottom of a page. He just assumed that if one is a musician, notation should not be a problem. And he was not one to leave rhythmic subtlety and ornamentation to chance, which is much more clearly defined in normal notation. There was a lute in Bach's household inventory after his death, and you have to know that if he wished to play the lute, he could play the lute. It's just not that special.

[@AB3632]

What are your sources?

[@Mignarda]

@@AB3632 Just for the record, I did respond in a timely fashion to your question with detailed information and links to 1) an example of keyboard tablature in Bach's hand, 2) an essay on Bach's specificity in written ornamentation, and 3) a quote from the Bach Reader that shows there was a lute in the inventory of Bach's household upon his death. For whatever reason, my response was not published-either the original poster of the video deleted it or yucktube blocked it because they could not monetized the links. If you are serious about source citations, contact me personally, I'm not that hard to find.

[@AB3632]

@@Mignarda No problem, I did see your post although if it was removed afterwards I wasn't aware. Thanks btw

[@theangryginger7582]

Not sure who is correct here, but it's worth mentioning that fisk acknowledged that there was a lute in Bach's house. He also said his writing for lute wasn’t particularly idiomatic. Also I think it's a little unfair to say if Bach wanted to play the lute he would have. I mean he was a busy guy, it could've very easily been a sort of secondary thing that he was interested in but didn't have time to really learn. You very well may be ultimately correct. Any thoughts on fisk's claim of the works being unidiomatic, though?

[@Mignarda]

@@theangryginger7582 "In his youth, and until the approach of old age, he played the violin cleanly and penetratingly, and thus kept the orchestra in better order than he could have done with the harpsichord. He understood to perfection the possibilities of all stringed instruments." - CPE Bach in a letter to Forkel, 1774 I say again, if Bach wanted to play the lute, he could have played the lute. It's really not that special to a musician who strives for perfection.

[@kvvvy6359]

I can't play violin or cello, but I do play guitar. So as far as I'm concerned, the answer is yes lol

[@ghmus7]

Mr. Fisk with all due respects propigates several misconceptions. E major is a good key for lute and many compositions for in that key exist.

[@bzeliotis]

Excellent content!

[@benferrell2032]

my guy looks like a more goated jack black!!! lmao so cool. love you tonebase for another great informative video. guitar for life :)

[@greguitard7812]

For starters: Eliot Fisk is one of the greatest guitarists in history of the instrument, though (like Glenn Gould for piano) you can disagree with some of his interpretations. Check out his "double" of the famous Bouree in E minor from BWV 996! Personally, I prefer the Chaconne transposed to E minor (also a good guitar key obviously), as Bach used the violin's open 2nd string in the pedal variations towards the end and E minor allows guitar's 2nd string to be used. Also in E minor the fourth chord in the theme can be played correctly!

[@HalJikaKick]

Good video

[@SebastianRuzycki]

Great video!!

[@yurib7067]

No true artists writes exclusively for the loot.

[@KeetonBailey]

weiss? dowland?

[@HalJikaKick]

I want Fisk’s shirt. 😄

[@pie3566]

Don't want to be mean, but Fisk interpretation sucks

[@jackdolphy8965]

Fisk might be a good scholar but he’s a butcher of a player.

[@StephiSensei26]

Oh, I'm so relieved the answer is NO! I almost thought I was playing his music on my guitar. Now I can go back to my Bongo Drums!.......... Are you kidding?! Yes, you're just kidding. Whew!

[@soundknight]

Fisk? Bach? Segovia? No, no connection.

[@Justin.R.Ferris]

Just lautenwerck

[@chrrev1]

So called experts... laughable

[@havardrivansson7902]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.