Did Games Workshop Save The Necrons Or Ruin Them? | Warhammer 40K Lore

[@weshammer]

Download and play Tacticus for free today: play.tacticusgame.com/wes-gobbo Use Code: WesXMAS for a bunch of free rewards!

[@tundraw01f55]

Great vid, I would love it if you did one of these old lore videos for the nids, Im curious what's been changed for them since inception

[@AlriikLives]

​@@tundraw01f55Gonna keep saying it:The Nids need a Kerrigan. A character to represent them, like, a queen.

[@weedling3552]

i have some very wild theories concerning the necrons, do you want to hear them/where can i tell you? :D

[@randyross5630]

I got the Necrons as soon as I could Order them...

[@isaacgraff8288]

I think we only need 1 'cosmic horror'. The Tyranids fit that role.

[@lonercs]

Old necron flayers: They want to strike fear into us. New necron flayers: "I WANT TO BREATHE!!!" -while wearing a skin suit

[@funkydanieluk]

They used to be scary, now they are defective.

[@jhart6764]

(Joking) See this is why they ruined them they went from trying to scare people to being a horrifying concept.

[@fremenondesand3896]

breath= single breath. breathe= the act of drawing in air, "to breathe, freely."

[@lonercs]

@@fremenondesand3896 Fixed, thanks.

[@NulnOilRequired]

The flayed ones turned from using flesh like warpaint to I have no mouth and I must eat

[@thesonicnacho3159]

"waagh Mr Bond" Pure ork poetry.

[@lewiswhite95]

Love the Green boi's Wait till they wake up, then krump em😅

[@diaroirvine883]

Odin

[@diaroirvine883]

Odin

[@diaroirvine883]

Odin

[@InquisitorThomas]

I like the Oldcrons, but they were one trick ponies, we look back on them with such fondness because their Gimmick wasn’t completely overplayed. You can only have “Oh No… Imperial World X is secretly a Necron Tomb World, how will Y Space Marine Chapter or Z Imperial Regiment beat them?” So many times before people get absolutely sick of them.

[@ilesalmo7724]

Were the stories of Old Necrons different than what you described the Newcrons have? At least the Newcrons have varying motives unlike the Tyranids: "Oh No.. the Imperial World X is on the path of a Hive Fleet..."

[@Mandrewlochner]

​@ilesalmo7724 warhammer 40k is designed to have immediate story-bearing implications as to why two small detachments of conceptually larger forces are fighting over a few bits of terrain and real estate no greater in size than your average Walmart parking lot. Did you know that the Tyranids are eating through the galaxy like a whole pizza from the side, but also sprinkling from above and below the planar disk of the galaxy. While your critique is noted, achieving greater depth of story than broad stroke writing is what the fanfic community is meant for. Black library books are really just fanfics based in the 40k universe. Writing for Games Workshop is committing the art of inspiring controversy using nothing of substance. Last time anything happened with the golden throne... nothing happened.

[@primary2630]

​@ilesalmo7724 well you have actual Necrons with character and personality and real goals instead of extermination of life.

[@MN-jw7mm]

@@primary2630 You could've had all that without fundamentally changing the nature of Necrons, though.

[@MN-jw7mm]

That would be nice if they didn't keep overplaying their gimmicks. Trazyn?

[@WiLDRAGE777]

I mostly dislike that they got rid of Pariahs. They could still make sense given that they were the melding of Necrodermis and human bits, it could be presented as studying ways to reverse bio-transference. Plus there is so much more Warp activity in the current millennia that having them would make strategic sense. Oh, and give Warriors their 3+ Armor Save of 3rd edition again.

[@pauls7947]

Give warriors their 3+ save again.... "No" Along with their resurrection rules, It was Broken as f*&£, And only justified as they gad vrfy few flavours of unit. The gauss rifle was just op as feck too.

[@SIGNOR-G]

I always imagined pariahs as the next step of the Ctan slaves. Of course these star eater would care less for the necrons and the moment they can can create a better servant they would replace them.

[@killinspecialist1965]

Pariahs are still around in the new lore there are a few mentions of them but theyre rare and not talked about much at all, id honestly compare them to the way the whole star child thing is nowadays where we know its still a thing and it still gets occasional mentions but nothing big or anything new about them

[@Dingghis_Khaan]

I would like to see a Necron side-faction of C'tan-worshipping Pariahs, like what the Genestealers are to the Tyranids, or what Drukhari are to the Aeldari

[@ned5231]

Yeah pariahs were sick

[@0sm1um76]

I just wanna say I really enjoy this style of content Wes. Exploring the out of universe changes in the lore is an interesting angle that allows you to still explore the lore but still give me context and information I haven't heard a bunch of times before. Keep it up!

[@azh121389]

The Infinite and the Divine single handedly refutes the appeal of previous necron lore. Two old ass men having a petty looney toons fight over 800 years and then Indiana Jones roleplay for the next couple thousand. Chef's kiss

[@Denasgurman]

Yeah.. that's the problem in fact, from unknowable threat to looney toons and overly human characters. I don't feel like they are an ancient alien race my mind don't even understand, I just feel like they are goofy and grumpy characters that people like because everything tell them "oh you should like em these are the silly characters, you like silly don't you ? Here they are, look how funny they are".

[@devildolphin2102]

@@Denasgurman The fact you think it’s just looney tunes shows you didn’t read the books. Spoilers They fight 6 shards of the deceiver and there is a moment where both trazyn and orikan just have a moment of dread. They are utterly horrified of the C’tan as he turns entire Armies of Necrons into Flayers

[@donut2931]

@@DenasgurmanYou mean orks…? You aren’t describing necrons very well.

[@donut2931]

@ Though they don’t feel looney-tunes esque. They are every bit the menacing ancient husk of a horror, but now the more powerful and sane of their kind have personalities. One of which serves as an excellent analogue for us as a player, Trazyn the Collectors. We also have silent king who exiled himself and abandoned the galaxy, to come back and warn of the tyranid threat. (Admittedly, those are the two characters I’m most familiar with) But a race of beings who captured and regularly makes use of the gods they killed/enslaved is pretty metal. Don’t see the looney tunes aspects within some of the biggest Necron representatives

[@Mandrewlochner]

I haven't read any necron lore, so as I understand them, they are living souls trapped in metal bodies. Trazyn collects people and stuff and is kinda funny. Everyone else is a spooky scary skeleton who can kill you with 1 drip of their koom.

[@conan2096]

40k already has one near lore free race of mindless killers, the tyranids. they didnt change all necrons, there are still destroyer cults and flayed ones who kill mindlessly and probably some who are controlled by shards (nothing stopping homebrew), but the necrons are so much more interesting now and have some genuinely fun characters like trazyn, orikan, oltyx and zandrekh

[@SavageEntertainmentYEAH]

Yeah true we already have mindless versions of each faction tbh and a big problem I always had was the character personalities as i think te be tons are better off with personalities and real writing like currently

Oh no, so lets make one of the two mindless killer races more like the other 20+ factions!

[@fotismanolopoulos1098]

Yeah, because that means actually giving them stuff. Like, an actual culture and unique perspectives. If they hadn't changed them, they would've ended up like the Nids: A threat with 0 personality for the book protagonists to survive/ destroy. And that only works once. The setting only needs one "No culture, just threat" faction I think.

[@hiroshi1046]

More interesting? More enjoyable? You can pretend to be a dark edgelord “look in such psychopaf 🫣” ass personality but real people like real stories with empathetic structure. Plus they’re even more grimdark with the mind flayer virus being their biggest threat to existence.

[@Juel92]

@@fotismanolopoulos1098 Agreed. Tyranids fill that role well and soulless robots that just wanna exterminate life is a bit more boring than life ravaging planets in an absurd fashion.

[@someaussieguy140]

I dont see why both interpretations of the Necrons cant exist simultaneously. It all depends on how their written and from who's perspective. In most of the new books we as the audience see the Necrons and their complex society and exentric characters. However your average Imperial citizen wouldnt know a damn thing about that and would see the necrons just as they were portrayed in the old lore. Just like how orks are often written as comic relief, but some books depict them as the horrifying monsters they really would be. Both can be valid.

[@derangedhermit7981]

Your second line explains why they can't coexist. 3E Necrons where a unified silent force that was wrapped in mystery seemingly working to either end all life because they hated what they lost or because the Nightbringer was hungry. That lore can't exist side by side with a complex fractured society working against each other and towards a million different goals.

[@DennisDelav]

In a way they do. We have the new necrons but some stuff of the old lore is still present, there are the severed which are necrons who have no personality anymore, not even the leader, and their tomb spirit (some sort of low level ai controlling the tomb) controls the necrons and attacks everything with them trying to get close. There's also still the possibility of a c'tan controlling necrons, it has been shown before in the new lore

[@Pihtorich]

But you cannot unsee necrons being normal dudes

[@tyrant-den884]

Or if the tomb world didn't have a Lord for whatever reason, and it's just a bunch of warriors and scarabs following basic programming.

[@SIGNOR-G]

​@@derangedhermit7981 Another aspect they could have expanded was the creation of PARIAHS. I like the idea of the ctan preparing the new generarion to replace their old slaves. Add another layer to this faction that differentiate it from both chaos and tyranids

[@Zombiewithabowtie]

Trazyn and Orikan have a fist fight at one point, and it's essentially, "What if Statler and Waldorf were each put into the body of a Terminator?"

[@piraterubberduck6056]

I think the changes made sense. It started with the humans finding terrifying creatures, they tried to interpret what they saw, and then we get into the Necrons from the Necron perspective, where they become more relatable. I think they need more attention, but mostly because I don't want to play as humans in warhammer and feel left out.

[@theburgerking1236]

Yeah it’s rough sometimes being a fan of factions outside of humanity since humanity is the protagonist of the story of warhammer

[@Sevness]

@@theburgerking1236 Exactly, EVERYTHING is from the PoV of the Imperium of Man. We are lucky when we get lore from the actual factions PoV.

[@solanumlycopersicum5594]

The changes made sense. Not making the changes would have made sense too. Making different changes would have made sense as well. People treat this as if it is a binary choice between exactly what it was and exactly what it has become, when it is not. I wanted to play the old Necrons because I liked the vibe and the look. I do not want to play the new Necrons because I do not like the vibe, and they look silly to me.

[@Deletirium]

​@@solanumlycopersicum5594 That's my issue - as an enthusiastic newcomer to the whole 40k universe/lore, the Necrons are the only ones that stuck out to me as out of place. They are literally drawn like Scooby Doo villains, whereas everything else is appropriately grimdark. (I might have an issue with the Kroot too, come to think of it...) Maybe I'd like the older versions, I just haven't seen them. The concept of an egyptian deathcult slumbering in tombworlds, and transfered to robotic bodies is cool, but cartooney jolly roger villains is offputting. Imo, anyway.

[@marqofthedwyne]

The Necrons in the new lore are just gigachads. No one in the setting has ever thought of fighting their own god and actually came out on top. People have glazed many Space Marine characters as the strongest and most awesome characters ever, but the necrons just turning their god into Pokemon is next level badass.

[@yokgor4675]

They are also the only faction that has what it takes to eliminate the two biggest problem to the universe, the Tyranids and Chaos.

[@bowlerpattroler9625]

Turning thier own gods into pokemon 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@Mandrewlochner]

The failcrons had to give up on the entire galaxy because they needed a geriatric nap. 😂 tombworlds? More like, retirement homes.

[@dean_l33]

Not to mention they are literally the source of all the galaxy problems but also potentially the only one who could fix it

[@Sphendrana]

Pokebatteries 😂

[@Evil0tto]

I loved the Lovecraftian horror 3rd edition Necrons, but they had all the personality of Tyranids. And the idea that the C'tan we saw on the tabletop were the actual beings was silly. They were supposed to be GODS, and gods don't go down to concentrated missile launcher fire. I much prefer the idea that they were just shards. On the whole I think they're more flavorful now, especially in their novels. Seeing how their minds work is fascinating. It's like they're just simulations of life, sophisticated programs (sometimes not so sophisticated) running in their shells that mimic how their minds worked when they still breathed.

[@voiceofsilence1169]

"gods don't go down to concentrated missile launcher fire" Well, not with that attitude at least. - Every commander of any Imperial faction ever.

[@HermanaSilencio]

"gods don't go down to concentrated missile launcher fire" HERECY!!! EVERYTHING GOES DOWN WITH THE CONCENTRATED MISSILE LAUNCHER FIRE OF THE ASTRA MILITARUM BY THE GRACE OF THE HOLY EMPEROR OF MANKIND!!

[@CRSH3000]

They were just avatars not the gods themselves. I don't know where he got this idea from. It's like saying the eldar could field khaine himself. That never was a thing

[@electricfeverx976]

The Infinite & The Divine has done wonders for introducing people to NewCron lore. One the things I loved was the random tangents the book went on about Necron society. Stuff like Necrons still having artists in their society but without a soul so they lack creativity, & so their play writers treat theater like a one-upsmanship competition to see who can the longest plays. The absurdity of it being how their plays now last months at a time now since they're all immortal, restless beings so there's no need for breaks. Just the thought of some Overlord bringing their posse to watch a play just to feel something only to be trapped in the theater for over half a year, continuously being frustrated waiting for this thing to finally end but it never comes.

[@7Blau7]

Thanks for writing your comment, exactly how I feel. I loved 3rd edition necrons but with no personality, it is hard to identify with them

[@thomascaldwell2567]

11:05 the Pariah were mentioned in the Cain book caves of ice back in 2004. The party freaked out when they saw it except Cain and Yurgen because he was a blank.

[@Amrius]

Good video, thanks! This is actually the first time I've delved more deeply into the (for me actually still quite "new") Necron lore. (I stopped actively playing 40k around 2011) I still like the old lore a bit better, but only because I saw more potential in it than just "Khemri in Space." I think they could have easily developed it in a direction where it remained very "eldritch" and "Lovecraftian." With the C'tan as puppet masters or incomprehensible entities that enslaved an entire alien race. There could still be Necrons who freed themselves from their control or something like that... And as an addition they could have added something like cultists: humans who worship Necrons or the C'tan. In my opinion, that's what the Dark Mechanicum should have been - not just a "Chaos Mechanicus." Back in the day, it always seemed kind of obvious to me that the Omnissiah (at least in part) was actually the C'tan Dragon, but they never really confirmed that, apparently. :/ At the end of the day, the grimdark part of 40k only really works for me from the perspective of the humans. As soon as other factions are also the "protagonists", it might become more "epic" or more of a space opera, but less "grimdark."

[@jeffthomson4223]

I don't think you're being particularly accurate with the old Necrons- they were no more mindless, soulless slaves than the current version (if anything, the new Necrons leans even more heavily into the mindless undead theme, particularly for the standard warriors). The main difference is just the C'Tan- they did rule the old Necrons, but not in a magic micro-managing fashion- nobles still had agency. New Necrons killed and enslaved their gods, and admittedly that's cool, but the main thing which has added to the personality of Necrons is simply time- there's been more time for the development of characters and stories (and changes in company style to push these stories more). My only real problem with the lore change is that it makes the great hibernation make no sense. In original lore, Necrons weren't weak- they hibernated because the galaxy was depleted (plus hints of the enslaver plague). C'Tan wanted to eat the fleshy beings, and Necrons would capture/ convert/ rule them as they saw fit, but the fleshy things were dying- so the hibernation had some sense to it. In the new lore Necrons were weak and alliances were forming against them... so they hid and shut down, putting themselves into an extremely vulnerable position. That makes no sense, and they lost countless numbers due to it. They're not biological- they don't need time or rest to recover or rebuild their numbers. The hibernation now makes no sense.

[@Keram-io8hv]

Matt Ward making Necrons from "We are soulless automatons who just kill" to "Get off my lawn ya yangsters!" was so good he redeemed himself from Grey Knights/Ultramarine stuff

[@TSInfiMa-r6z]

Sad that Matt Ward's Ultramarine infamy overtook Uriel Ventris books that came before it.

[@OnetastyJoe]

Besides "soulless automatons who just kill" is way too similar to Tyranids anyway.

[@derangedhermit7981]

Nothing will ever redeem him from the Grey Knight fiasco.... As much as I hated the Necron retcon I despised the Grey Knight soloing everything in the warp for eternity even more. Hell even the Space Wolves where not that bad.

[@Keram-io8hv]

@@derangedhermit7981 Like yeah it was stupid but hey I never took the stuff too much seriously

[@primary2630]

It's not like he is all bad but he is definitely awful for making Mary sue type characters

[@АлександрКостин-ф1в]

Honestly, when I did first get into the WH40k around 2006, I viewed the Necrons kinda like Space Terminators, and it... It did not click with me. Soulless machines hellbent on destroying everything may work in some cases, but with Necrons, they kinda turned me off, and I kinda forgot about them when my early Warhammer phase ended. Then, 14 years later, I decide to give a second chance, on a whim, and I find the lore much, much more expanded and better overall, but the biggest improvement for me were the Necrons. They suddenly had actual lore, identity, nuance and top tier characters. Imotech, The Silent King, Orikhan, and I am sure everyone's favorite, Trazyn the Infinate. Suddenly, what was for me stale bread became a delicious croissant, one that I devoured with wine without regret. So, in my personal, biased, completely unimportant opinion, no, GW didn't ruin Necrons, but revived them. They are still soulless, ultra hyper-advanced killing machines that they were, but are much more than just that. And I am all in for it.

[@nathanmontgomery8650]

Yeah I don't get it and while I know that they have zero tabletop presence people keep forgetting about the men of iron if they still want that terminator flavor at least non Leagues of Votann ones

[@kareth117]

100% this right here. They're the closest to "skeleton army" we get in the 40k setting, and I LOVE that... but then they used to just be robots. nothing else. The changes made them much better.

[@Szt1998]

Don't forget Nemessor Zandrek and Vargard Obryn! The real best boys.

[@sleeplessknight99]

I disagree, but I understand and highly respect your reasons to preferring the new lore. If only people were as open to understanding and respecting those who like having female Custodes.

[@silverseer573]

I mean... that's what they were. Even their respawning rule was called "We'll be back!". It's a scary concept, for sure, but there's a reason the Terminator franchise itself didn't just repeat the formula with the second movie. I'm absolutely with you, the Necrons weren't ruined, they were expanded and reinvigorated.

[@hunterwaguespack3963]

Back in school i had a friend trying to get me into warhammer & explaining some stuff, i was like ooh what are these skeleton robots & he was like oh their mysterious Egyptian terminators that just show up, annihilate everything, regen when killed & leave. Me: oh cool whats their story? He says they dont really have one its a mystery. A while later when I actually deep dive into 40k (I didn’t know the lore was retconed/changed) i was like wth these guys have an awesome story, what was he talking about lol

[@AdminAbuse]

They're and their are different words

[@hunterwaguespack3963]

Ik I pretty much Did that comment with speech to text and didn’t care enough to proofread lol

[@tlpineapple1]

​@@AdminAbuse No one gives a shit and you should feel bad.

[@cyrusmann5443]

​@@AdminAbuseok, his grammatical error isn't relevant to the conversation.

[@haresteven06]

​@@AdminAbuseWay to read someone's history with the game and be so up your own ass that all you noticed was the grammar. You're probably fun at get togethers.

[@Blextine]

one thing i love about 3th editions necron codex is that it build up the idea that necrons are something much more alien, mysterious and cold then humanity, they don't write codexes because they don't think that way or mabey can't think that way, humanity instead just have to theories and guess which creates this amazing horror angle that rely capture the eldritch horror aspect of 40k. i do like some of the changes that has been given to necrons over the year but also feel that alot of the new lore would have worked better for other factions or might been fiting for necrons if you kept the storyteller focus on the humans perspective of necrons. do still appreciate what necrons are now a day but just don't find them as cool as they once was.

[@Crazael]

Personally, I like the old Necrons better, but I'm not really invested enough to get into fights about it. For me, it's not about them being somehow "more grimdark". I just liked the "unknowable army of metal skeletons that can't be killed, only delayed" thing.

[@michaelbarnard8529]

“Humans setting off alarms” is more believable than “a 62 million year timer is going off now”.

[@recurvestickerdragon]

wasn't there also a thing with the silent king exiling himself outside the galaxy, seeing the tyranids, and immediately turning around to wake as many tombs as possible

[@wanderingdemon1192]

Yeah, right, everything has to be about humans, cause surely there were no xenospecies capable of setting off the "alarms" inhabiting the majority of habitable planets throughout the last 62 million years until humans came couple dozen of thousand years ago

[@KevinLawhorn-u3j]

@@wanderingdemon1192to be fair that probably happened but most species traveling the galaxy right now were fighting the necrons in the war in heaven and hunting and destroying tomb worlds as they found them

[@redenginner]

@@wanderingdemon1192 I mean ngl humanity did cause the largest warp rift in galactic history,nearly birthed the dark king, and had two apocalyptic wars in about as long as some necron stageplays take to reach act 2. Though lets be honest the alarm was probably more related to the eldar population crashing and the last old one being turned into thousands of ponderable orbs by Slaanesh. It probably what is what started the big reawakening from the automated side and the silent king showing up helped speed it up by quite a lot.

[@fadelsukoco3092]

​@@KevinLawhorn-u3j"Most species?" Huh!? The only notable ones that are still around now are the Eldar and Orks, which are exponentially less impressive versions of what the Necrons were dealing with back in the WIH, and nowadays don't really focus on the Necrons any more than any other enemy. Even during the entire 60-million-year reign of the Aeldari Empire following the end of the War in Heaven (which the Necrons all but won, the only reason they entered the Great Sleep was due to their losses sustained in shattering the C'tan, who would have ate/destroyed all life otherwise), they didn't destroy enough time worlds to matter or make it a top priority for the empire, even though they were in a prime position to do so, considering that their galactic supremacy was never threatened prior to them sabotaging their own society by slowly creating Slaanesh. And the Krorks wouldn't have had much luck in hunting down and destroying tomb worlds after the war, since their potential for violence was deemed as too disruptive for their future plans by the Eldar, who betrayed and then periodically culled the Krork down to occasional nuisance levels. And if I'm reading it wrong and you meant to say that most species during the War in Heaven would be fighting the Necrons and trying to destroy tomb worlds, well, they wouldn't be tomb worlds, as those only became a thing after the Necrons shattered the C'tan and the Silent King called for the Great Sleep. During the WIH, the planets and equivalent areas that the enemies of the Necrons would be targeting would simply be Necron-controlled worlds, since back then the Necrons were all active and had no reason to hide in tomb worlds.

[@hermaeusmora424]

The Necron 3rd edition Codex is what got me into 40k. A friend introduced me and the Necrons sounded the best to me. They were my first army. Back in ~ 2010 or 2011. Sadly haven't been able to play since 2013, so my tabletop journey was rather short, but the genere as a whole hasn't lost me and its all thanks to the unthinking space terminators. Edit: having now watched the part of his video where he talks about the 3rd edition codex I 100% agree. They were mysterious spooky and had some Lovecraftian vibe to it as all the stories were written from the victims perspective.

[@Zectifin]

same, necrons were my first army in 3rd edition. I ended up selling them after a few years because I didn't realize how limited their army was in unit variety and the lack of modifications of them and switched to Eldar, but they were really cool and what got me into 40k. I like the new unit variety that necrons now have, but I don't like how they are a bunch of squabbling lords instead of a horror army.

[@mackmind]

This - best stories are when humanity is the narrator for xenos and other forces. It is far from most knowledgeable or reliable, but it kept immersion much more. Any narration from xenos themselves should be hardly understandable for reader or it is not xenos (alien) enough.

[@Steezyjo510]

I love the Imperium’s history but the war in heaven makes the heresy/crusade look like a kids fight.

[@Farm_Emo]

As is everything mankind does in real life and in 40k in terms of the galaxy and universe in total.

[@elgringofeo9348]

The story telling in 3rd is a really cool idea, kinda like finding those typical recordings that are collectibles in horror games where you hear messages and stuff

[@chrisrippe]

I like the Newcron lore, but I also like the idea that a minute shred of their souls remains somehow. I don't know for sure where I got the idea, but I was under the impression that there was just enough soul left in each Necron to be aware of the horror of their situation and maybe show a spark of individuality from time to time. Maybe this was the original explanation for the flayed ones or something.

[@Wafflebob]

Orikan in the Infinite and the Divine has a dream of leading the Necrons to a future where they are energy beings unshackled by physical forms, and even manages to temporarily achieve this. I'm not sure how a chunk of metal running personality.exe manages to literally melt away it's body and become a reality-warping energy creature if there's no soul at all left in it.

[@Eliwood29]

Cant wait for 69th Edition Tyranids to get their "Kerrigan" style character and for this to start all over again lol

[@diamondhamster4320]

Brother, Gene stealers already have very good books. It is not the same but it is very close.

[@Tiku-]

@@diamondhamster4320​​⁠ to be fair, they’re basically human hybrid that instinctively believe that what they’re doing is right. Human ambition and the nid’s gluttony, combined and you get yourself a perfect package of highly motivated sub race. They’re different from being outright made into sapient being like the new Necrons did. You can argue the hive mind technically is, based off that one moment when it used a gaunt specifically to stare down in grudge at an Astartes, and that one moment when a Farseer peeked at the hive mind only to find out that the rigged topographic of it’s mind alone is bigger than an entire star system.

[@AlriikLives]

​@@diamondhamster4320I am seriously waiting on the Nid queen, she is going to add a whole new dimension to the nids.

[@diamondhamster4320]

@@AlriikLives People then will cry that now W40K "has fallen" and Nids are just knock-off Xenomorphs (like how Xenomorphs Aliens are in extended canon, multi-media and video games).

[@karakiri283]

@@AlriikLives nah Fuck manchild fantasy. New necron are funny and interesting but too soft. New W40k is too soft. Nids having feelings would be so fucking bad. A natural predator dont need feelings. Intelligence dont equate a need for feelings, but you know anglo authors would never be capable of doing such characters, because anglo literature is void of say characters. So dont touch this topic.

[@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954]

I have never agreed with the claim that the alterations to the Necron lore 'ruined' the faction. The original Necron lore presented them as a unknown threat, the mindless machine slaves of some dark and terrible power. That was all well and good so far as it went, aiming for a cosmic horror feel.... but honestly that slot was already occupied by the Tyranids in 40K lore, and they did it much more effectively than the early Necrons could. Shifting focus away from that cosmic horror approach more toward casting the Necrons as a once dormant, now slowly awakening elder civilization with extremely potent technology, so advanced it seems like magic to other factions, was in my opinion an inspired decision. It allowed the Necrons to establish their own identity as a faction. Faceless hordes of creatures that exist only as the extension of the will of that which created them is the signature of the 'Nids as a faction in 40K, and they do it very, very well indeed. The Necrons becoming an ancient civilization arising from stasis allowed for greater individuality among the Necron ruling class, thereby allowing for specific characters with fully realized personalities to emerge such as The Silent King, Imotekh the Stormlord, and everyone's favorite galactic museum curator, Trazyn the Infinite. Those characters are fan favorites that simply wouldn't exist at all without this change to the lore, and by extension extremely well regarded stories and novels featuring such characters, like The Infinite and the Divine, also would not exist.

[@weshammer]

Very well said!

[@ned5231]

But it doesn't really give them their own identity, their identity is now just tomb king's in space

[@gregorygreenwood-nimmo4954]

@@ned5231 By that logic, are the Orks not just Orcs in space? The Aeldarri simply High Elves in space and the Drukarhi Dark Elves in space? The Leagues of Votann could well be called Dwarves in space and the Imperium would seem to be a mix of the Fantasy Empire of Man and (amusingly enough) the Skaven.... in space. Two of the few factions from 40K that don't have a clear fantasy analogue are the Tyranids and the Genestealer Cults, but that is because those factions combine a nod both to the alien 'bug' swarm archetype seen in several sci fi works and the sort of cosmic horror concepts we see in Lovecraftian fiction. That is the inevitable result of the creation of a sci fantasy setting like 40K that, by its very nature, takes tropes and faction types from earlier fantasy settings and transplants them to a sci fi far future. And if the Necrons were to still be treated as mindless shambling mechanical monsters, would they then not simply be machine zombies? And as such closer to Vampire Counts in space than Tomb Kings in space, but ultimately still part of the same pattern?

[@101Mant]

​@@ned523140k was always Warhammer Fantasy Battle in Space. To the point some of the development of thr races in 40k ended up back in WHFB. The Necons were clearly always I inspired by the undead.

[@DLKoakuma]

I love your content. I'm not a player of any WH40K but I love the lore, and you are one of the best narrators of the lore.

[@UGNAvalon]

That final segment’s analysis really makes me want to see your thoughts on the nature of grimdark, and esp on “how much grimdark is too much, to the point it becomes grimderp?” You kinda touched on it with the ratling video, where before their kleptomania was a funny quirk of their character, but now it’s a necessary response to abhuman discrimination. Ppl have mentioned similar things with the Tau, where before they were genuine good guys in a universe that devoured hopes & dreams for breakfast, but now they have insidious Ethereal leadership bc dystopia is mandatory. I think other little details could also count, like Chaos factions casually killing slaves like they grow on trees, when they should in reality be a very limited resource; or macrocannon batteries being reloaded “by hand”; etc.

[@weshammer]

I was actually always a believer that hopeful, peaceful, and enthusiastic tau we're already a grim dark concept considering the universe they found themselves in. I don't think they needed to be made any more grim dark. What could possibly be more grimdark than the youngest species still believing in peace because the universe hasn't beaten it out of them yet? In a lot of respects when you understand this franchise, it's history, and it's lore, the Tau end up as one of the most grim dark factions possible. Like you could genuinely interpret them as a tangible personification of the death of hope, right before that death actually occurs. All that being said, considering that they are not influenced by the warp, and do not have the same problems with AI that humanity did, there's a small chance that they may actually be successful in their peaceful endeavors. The greater good may actually end up being the force that unites the galaxy, even if it's a very slim chance. Those terrible odds keep them grim dark, well the small chance of success makes them uniquely different from everyone else.

[@dz1_randomviewah]

@10:55: I mean, it's not presented as "we don't know why", it's just presented matter-of-factly as "spreading fear before the Necron force, they do this, leaving skinned corpses to sow fear and confusion". Given the special rule "Terrifying Visage" (and the Space Marine-equivalent stat line with two attacks), I think it's a fair position to argue that it's extremely likely to be intentional psychological warfare. @11:25: Wait what? Since when was the codex written by the Imperium? Is this a new mandate by GW, was this a former mandate I missed, or what? Because there's a LOT in the 3e codex that makes ZERO sense for the Imperium to know. If you're referring to the army list specifically, I would STILL argue that there's no way for the Imperium to know that the Immortals were the C'tan's favorite Necrontyr, and the first to become Necrons. @13:14: Point of order, it's both. The Necrons ARE used as weapons by the C'tan, but the war was about to be started by the Necrontyr *anyway*, the C'tan just made their offer before it started. @15:47: I KNOW, RIGHT?! Thank you! @16:48: As an Oldcron player, I have to *hard disagree* here. It wasn't that they got less interesting, it was that they became almost *unplayable* within the meta. Tiny squad sizes, short range, low initiative, no grenades, the "phase out" rule, sweeping advance... With 5e removing the old glancing hit chart, gauss weaponry lost the equalizer effect it had had against armor, and the abundance of more-reliable template weapons and fast armored vehicles honestly made playing them very depressing to play. The 5e codex released just before the launch of 6e, so there were YEARS of them being crushed by an abundance of power weapons, plasma, skimmers and tanks. I STILL love the Oldcron lore more than the lore for my Orks or Daemonhunters. I just didn't play them. @17:10: Okay, being fully transparent (and salty here): this is exactly my problem with arguments made in favor of the change by people who weren't already Necron players (or at least big fans). The fact that it appealed to fans of the OTHER factions, but not the old fans, is to me emblematic of the entire issue. If you didn't like them before, but you do now, and the folks who liked them before, now *don't*... you're not writing new material for the old army, you're _replacing them with a different one, written for players of the other factions._ It says something, I think, that I didn't just jump to Tyranids when Necrons became terrible to play. They're similar in dynamics, but that doesn't make them the same, and it doesn't make them appeal for the same reason. @18:50: And so, yeah, I suppose it's selfish of me, but... I don't care. We aren't going to ever see Dark Age of Technology Humanity in 40k, we aren't going to see Pre-Fall Eldar, and we aren't going to see the Old Ones, so why do we _have_ to make the backstory of the Necrontyr be depicted in the Necrons? @20:05 Alright, being fair here: yes, it doesn't make a great deal of sense that the C'tan were playable, much less in normal 40k. I always just wrote it off as "the Deceiver is being a troll" and "the Nightbringer just woke up and is still weakened." They could easily explain it as a sleepwalking avatar with the main body still being in stasis or something; the C'tan's body was never its actual "body", just a container, and if destroyed, the C'tan would just just reform in a Tomb later. (end of p.27, 3e codex) @22:03 Okay, point of fact, they had inertialess drives already, the Dolmen gates made them _more_ dependent on the Warp, not less. @25:16: That was like the second-highest point of contention amongst Necron players I knew. To be specific, however: they had always had some that managed to retain a shadow of their former selves; but they had no will of their own. The idea of former Necrontyr minds being trapped in their shells, acting as the programming utilized in their function was alluded to in the same passage that described their transformation. They simply didn't care. As for the additional units... they were needed. The old codex was too bare-boned to continue, and even if we didn't like the fluff behind it, it was acceptable crunch. Far more deserving of ire was *everything else.* @29:19: Well, no, they had always studied stars because theirs was so awful, and discovered the C'tan on noticing "anomalies in the oldest dying stars"; similarly, they also found them to be the weapon they were looking for. Personally, I found the 3e explanation to be pretty clear. @29:38: I don't actually know where you're getting that. The "death god" part is a reference to the earlier description of their failure to find a scientific solution to their health problems and the paradoxical relationship between the Necrontyr and their home star: "They persevered, yet still their accomplishments gained them naught. Their star still reigned over them as life-giver and death-god combined." The C'tan were "progeny" of the stars, in that they were born on them. The Nightbringer, in particular, came from their home star; hence "here was the weapon the Necrontyr had sought, the children of their death-god to cast down the Old Ones." I don't recall any reference to the Necrontyr having any pre-existing deities. @31:38: No, it was a choice in 3e. The C'tan offered, and the Necrontyr accepted. @36:27: I... honestly don't care for that. I'm not interested in Necron politics, and I don't really see much distinction between them being ruled by uncaring gods or uncaring overlords. @38:20: Again, *hard disagree.* It may be a matter of taste, but *no.* You may like them more, but I will *absolutely* deny that they are an improvement in just about ANY way. The *only* thing I'll concede on being an improvement is the ability to win games using them. Again, and I genuinely hope I'm not coming across as rude here, I genuinely _do not_ like the focus being on Necrontyr. And I will argue that such is pretty central to the difference. I enjoyed the Necrons, not the Necrontyr. And the Newcrons are pretty distinctly more the latter than the former.

[@nextos]

Your point about alienating old fans to bring in new ones hits the nail on the head. Make a new faction instead of burning it to the ground. I’d probably still play Newcrons today if they didn’t make it so so so stupid. Really dumb and I feel dumber for every new Newcrons lore I read

[@doggg4977]

whisper sweet lore into my ear wes

[@bonefetcherbrimley7740]

I read this in Carl's voice.

[@sonyyung5510]

Y'know when you think about it, the old ones denying the Necrons the 'secrets' to immortality was actually the right choice in my opinion. They kind of knew the necrons couldn't be trusted to use the warp correctly as they did, thus it would not behove them to show them how. Seeing how the necrons used their immortality when they became undead robots, and how they are normally fighting amongst themselves regardless, it would seem to me they in fact can't be trusted with it. The silent king had good intentions with the bio-transference but seeing the destruction they have wrought since shows it ultimately was not worth it. Had they chose to die out with dignity like other species, perhaps the universe would've been better far off, but this is the grimdark so of course people have to make the worst decisions possible in the worse situations possible. Like the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. In the necrons case, they quite literally paved the road for the creation of hell in 40k.

[@frostmagemarii]

The old ones didn't need to give them immortality... they could have just cured their excruciatingly painful space cancer.

[@Scowleasy]

I really don’t get how you can look at Necrontyr society and think making them immortal is a good idea

[@sonyyung5510]

@@frostmagemarii Yes but doing so would've required a massive over haul of their DNA, many not surviving the procedure. More than likely it would've been a process no less painful than bio-transferrence. Just imagine the old ones using the warp to reverse their evolution, imagine the agony and pain that would do. The likely psychological damage that might bring, and what would most likely reverberate throughout the warp? Then think of what the necrontyr would've become if they survived. Perhaps in the effort to extend their lives, they become like the Orgryn. Hardy and powerful, less likely to be sick; but bereft of any intelligence to continue necron culture. Or because its the warp, they became mutated monstrosities. Some would become warp born monsters, others would fuse with unknown warp entities. Likely becoming the first demon corrupted race. Or perhaps the old ones just translate their minds into different bodies. Likely a different species all together. Doing so would require essentially destroying another race to accomplish this as well, which is something the Old ones would never do. Perhaps they learned the secrets of warp magic, then they could stop their aging with warp technology. Again what would a people who already fight amongst themselves do with such forbidden knowledge? So you see, the only mercy the necrons had was either accepting their fate, hopeful evolving as a better species overtime through learned gene editing and selective breeding. Or the Old ones wiped them out for good. Since the necrons wouldn't have accepted either option, it would seem the only options the old ones had was to simply leave them alone. They thought themselves a benevolent race, thus they thought they were showing them the dignity to bow out with grace. Yet, they're were wrong. For even a God must eventually rid the universe of sin. And those who refuse to leave it, will die with it. Or like a dog with rabies or cancer, he must put it down. For its sake and the sake of those around it. That was the necrons fate. To be a short lived race, with short lives, an ultimately having a short lived existence altogether. Many species don't live long and have accepted that fact. They simply make the most of what they have. As do many people as well. But just like the lich that seeks to continue living long after he should, they made a deal with the devil. They sacrificed their souls to become abominations, damned to walk the known universe till the either last necrons rust away, or the last star is snuffed out. A maddening and pitiable existence, not envied by anyone. A slow and pointless death, a soulless existence until all information ceases to be. Tell me, which is better? Living life to the fullest even with a short time to live, or living till the end of everything? With nothing left to see but universes own inevitable implosion?

[@diooverheaven6561]

Who cares about immortality, they would be fine being healed from turbo space cancer

[@adamthompson9924]

I'm actually of the opinion the old ones had it coming. They had the power to create entire species, purpose built for specific goals. Bioengineering beyond compare. And when this middle aged cancer ridden 20 year old comes to you and asks for a cure. You go "LOL"....Fuck em, those frogs gotta go

[@barricadedpurifier]

0:40 I mean, they still are. It just depends.

[@Tm90aGluZ25lc3M]

I like new necrons, but... They are too human And that's the problem GWs make their xenos factions (necrons, tau, aeldari, even orks sometimes) too human When you read about them, you don't feel like they are aliens. The have feelings, thoughts, that are too similar to human feelings and thoughts. They even behave like humans. Weird humans, but still humans. I can understand when GWs make space marines, primarchs and even Emperor himself too human. But xenos... No

[@Errtuabyss]

This is missing another, possibly the most important, part of the oldcron identity: a faction that did cross the line of no return, that has sold everything they where for power, won the war but lost everything in turn. Them being just a shadow of their former selfs with most of them having little to no mind left to even realize the situation. It's not just like the aeldari, after the fall, clinging to their very existence. They are so far gone that there is basically nothing left of them. The deal with the C'tan doomed them to be nothing but soulless automatons, barely aware enough to realize they are eternal slaves to their masters. It's "I have no mouth and I must scream" vs yet another fallen undead empire, even with the same tropes as main characters as other examples of it. The theme is completely different. The newcrone lore is grimdark in a similar way vampire or other undead are doomed to exist and being out of reach of what they desire the most. Oldcrons where a slave army that is beyond hope or even care. They destroy the living because that is what they exist for. Frozen forever in the moment of their greatest triumph and their ultimate doom. For me personally the problem isn't the new lore in itself but the overall direction we got since 6th edition regarding lore. Everything is too standardized. Newcrons are too similar in structure and theme to other factions. "Humanizing" may be the perfect word to describe it since they now feel much more like a human civilization compared to a faction that just doesn't care personalization in general. Why did they need another faction super-leader? Sure, the Silent Kings has an interesting background, goals etc.. But he feels so much like Guilliman or others. Trazyn doesn't work for me personally because he can just do whatever (similar problem like the C'tan had but reverse) and his theme is just the Collector and doesn't actually make any sense.. if the universe cease to exist so does his collection. Unless he has the power to stop it. Which makes the collection kind of pointless since the universe wouldn't have to cease existing.. Most of the characters and themes are the same we have recycled over and over within the various factions of 40k. Using specific unit types more or battle doctrines in general isn't much of an identity at all. At least not one that distinguish you from other factions with the same strategic focus. The problem isn't doing a retcon to expand the faction. It's doing so in a very similar way to what we already have many times over within the setting at the cost of what way unique about the faction. Especially if you bring up the argument of the similarities with Tyranids and ending up making both more similar to every other faction... PS: I despise Tyranid named characters, relics and all the other personalization aspects that mirror what every other factions does. The Swarmlord especially is the worst idea introduced to the faction,. Even in hist current form, which is much less "unique character"-esque as it was.

[@ulyssesgrant87]

How to make both old and new lore work... Old lore for the war in heaven, new lore when the necrons wake up. Personalities returning, minds reforming, angish, anger, and regret flowing forth at all they lost and we get to have our grim dark lovecraftian gods origin cake and eat it with the 'my dudes' personality too. Simply just defeating all their gods when they couldn't defeat the old ones always rubbed me the wrong way.

[@Ryukachoo]

Both things are true For most members of the galaxy, the necrons seem like oldcrons But if you're in the know, you realize whats behind the oldcron mask (bickering old men)

[@adamthompson9924]

That's honestly accurate. To every other race the necrons are an apocalyptic threat. To necrons they're half insane relics trying desperately to cling onto any sanity they can while doing any petty side quest they fancy

[@tabuseventythree5678]

I think the older lore, overall, was better. However if they could have given us some lone operatives like Trazyn, that would have added a lot of spice and depth to the faction.

[@DonCurrywurst]

Old Necron: Lost the War in Heaven, went to sleep. New Necrons: Won the War in Heaven, went to sleep...cause of reasons.

[@markcarpenter6020]

I played the necrons when they were first released. I actually loved the old necrons and thought they were probably the best army for beginner players. They only had a handful of units, were easy to paint, and had the simplest tiles or any army back then. I've played a lot of different armies since then but the old necrons hold a special place in my heart.

[@RavensEagle]

Chaos Androids were created by Chaos Squats. I have always held to that lore that the reason why the Squats disappeared is because they all found slumbering Necrons and used Chaos to control them, thus dissappearing into the warp with necron technology. It made sense because then you had 1 thing to counter the Necrons. It's all Lore from the 40k Space Crusade/Star Quest boardgame If you are curious, please look into that board game and its lore related to Chaos Squats.

[@Tom_Fuckery]

Which fits in perfectly with the lore point of the different polarities of noctilith

[@kudosbudo]

I didn't realise that game had CHoas Squat lore. Certainly no mention in my UK copy. Or that i saw but i might need to reread it.

[@SusCalvin]

How much like chaos dwarves are they?

[@Tom_Fuckery]

@@SusCalvin AEUGH

[@logangodofcandy]

Nekron players hated the changes, because they loved the nekrons as they were. Nekrons were essentially killed off and replaced.

[@zeroalpha9713]

38:35 question , Yes

[@daggeranddoctor]

*Literally makes it where exactly 1 guy is able to laugh "Well, great job, now it's not grimdark."

[@Crossil]

The Oldcrons were the dark reflection of the Imperium. They were effectively the absolute order faction, where the C'tan ruled with absolute power. The comparison to Tyranids is half correct, insofar that both of them are ruled by a single purpose, to feed. But they were diametric opposites. Where Necrons were ruled by absolute order of their overlords and C'tan, the Tyranids were driven by pure instinct. It is the same diametric opposition between Imperium and Chaos, in a way. But Tyranids, unlike Chaos, had nothing other than pure instinct, ferocity and hunger, the same way that the absolute order of the Necrons was the darkest reflection of the Imperium's authoritarian tendencies that would be straight up totalitarian had it the capacity for such acts. In addition to this thematic relevance, they were in many ways the undead of the setting. An unfeeling, unbreakable force you can't reason with, that had to be matched in firepower or avoided altogether. Anyone complaining about old Necrons has to immediately discount the Vampire Counts of Warhammer Fantasy, or any other such undead force that predominantly relies on mass forces that are unthinking or not considered individuals. Which is completely unreasonable. As for the new Necrons, to me they offer nothing new. In fact, to me they look like just Eldar. Trazyn's trolling could've as well have been done by an Eldar aligned with Cegorach, preferably for collection in the Black Library. The idea of their fallen, technologically overpowered empire that's sorta lagging behind is again in line with the Eldar. Their shattered gods being fragments they summon to battle is literally Khaine. Minds crafted into constructed bodies? Wraithbone constructs. You could in theory connect these features to other races, particularly Mechanicus. But to me they offer nothing more than the exact same personality driven features that are akin to all the other races. As the unstoppable undead force they had something. A specific role in the setting next to the Imperium, Chaos and Tyranids. Yes, they're an extreme like the Tyranids are, but they are the opposite extreme, and the similarities people name are solely because there is a form of horseshoe theory at play.

[@NerdySatyr]

Honestly it's hard for me to say. I joined 40k just before Necrons got added, so those are the Necrons I know. I like SOME of the new bits they added in the new lore, but I definitely do miss the almost alien, inhuman silence of old Necrons. The Lords and such still had personalities/the ability to think, so you can easily do stories with them, but there wasn't all this political nonsense going on, to me it makes them feel far more clumsy/less threatening. Whilst the older Necrons we're far more terrifying IMO. But hey, you can always write your own armies lore as say, their tomb world being faulty so over the millennia they lost their personality/minds or suffer some form of "corrupted programming" (e.g. Flayer virus), so they are like the old unfeeling Necrons. Hell maybe even reverting to pre-C'tan war programming. It's your army, do what you want! (Basically the lore for my 'Crons!) But again, those are the Necrons I was introduced with, so it's hard to really comment on the subject without admitting I have a large bias.

[@NerdySatyr]

Thanks for the life @WesHammer!

[@Esoteric_Athlete]

For real - they lost that scary cosmic horror vibe. The fact they argue amongst themselves makes them feel way less scary and threatening

[@tlpineapple1]

​@@Esoteric_Athlete They were killing machines, thats all. Thats not cosmic horror.

[@BadTeacherUA]

@@tlpineapple1Mindless silent machines were EXACTLY cosmic horror: care for nothing, just purge and build new nexuses… A battle of Nids and Necrons was a spectacle, where humanity is just a dust under feet and claws of something much alien and bigger…

[@krim7]

They ruined the old lore (which was cool) and gave us new lore (which is more interesting narratively for books, as the necrons have characters that can interact with non-necron characters). I think I would have preferred GW keep the old Necrons then add a new faction/species that embodies the new lore

[@adfdasdfadfadsfareae]

I don't understand how anyone could think "mindless terminator robots" is more grimdark than "entire species born with cancer gets their souls eaten by dark gods, then breaks those gods, has an existential crisis, and decided to sleep it off until everyone else is dead too".

[@Justacheese]

Here's why at least when it comes to me. Its because you couldn't negotiate with the old version of the necrons. I watched a cutscene for battlefleet gothic armada 2 where a Necron I don't know the name of snuck onto Cadia to help the tech priests there with some of the Necron pylons and tech present on the planet. He left before anyone found out, but he helped the Cadians massively by turning on a planetary wide shield the prevented Abadon from bombarding the planet into dust from orbit. It was the thing that made him drop a blackstone fortress on Cadia to get past the shield. Now if this was the old version of the Necron's we're talking about then the story would have gone much differently. The Necrons would probably end up being the reason why Cadia falls in the first place. If one traveled there for whatever reason or woke up there, he would see the imperial forces and try to kill them immediately. There would be no negotiation, no manipulation of the situation or anything. Yes, the Necorns are mindless and one note when it comes to their reactions. Its always kill the enemy with no remorse every single time. But this is exactly what makes them so dark for me. Take that one battle where the Blood Angles go and temporarily ally with the Necrons to beat a massive Tyranid swarm. If that battle played out with the old version of the Necrons, the whole thing would be such a depressing dark bloodbath for the Blood angles. The Necorns would be fighting the Blood angles and the Tyranids at the same time, and they would not back down if there were 100 of them left or 10 of them left. Every single Necron warrior would still try to murder any Blood angle that got too close. It would be a grim hopeless tale and id absolutely love it.

[@Ariocsneedle]

That isnt even their original lore buddy. Read a book.

[@Ariocsneedle]

@@Justacheese Amen sir, You have a brain.

[@biorad0140]

@@Justacheese Cry louder, maybe GW will change them back. Just do it over there so that the rest of us don't have to listen to it.

[@MrJerichoPumpkin]

@@Ariocsneedle yeh, the old Necrons, whose only weakness is the Warp, raze the most important safeguard against it. Well, considering how much stupid their lore was, it clicks.

[@michaelbates4834]

I just don't like things being retconned when some creative storytelling would suffice. I think we could have moved from the 3rd edition Necrons to the 5th edition Necrons (or close enough) using a few points from the 3E Codex: 1. As mentioned in the video, most details from the codex are observations (which could be wrong or incomplete) from other races 2. It is stated in the codex that "the C'tan feasted upon their entire race, leaving behind only ghostly echoes of the Necrontyr. Only a few of the very strongest retained their intellect and even they were shadows of their former selves." So even in the original codex, there was the suggestion that characters might exist that have some part of their minds and personalities intact. 3.When the C'tan are on the battlefield, their vast bodies as energy beings are locked inside forms made of Necrodermis. If that is destroyed, the true form of the C'tan is released back into the galaxy, damaging nearby units. So what is on the tabletop is a limited form, which I don't think is that different from the Greater Daemons being tabletop manifestations of the Chaos gods. Given all that, I think a more interesting solution than just re-writing the Necrons would have been for us to see their rebellion play out in the current lore. Introduce the new characters as powerful Necron lords who held onto most of their original selves (maybe they even were concealing how much of their minds were intact from the C'tan). They could plot a rebellion against the C'tan and find a way to permanently lock the star gods inside their Necrodermis forms (or maybe even split their essence among many forms, following the idea of "shards"). Once the rebellion was successful, perhaps the Necron lords are able to recover some kind of data cache or memory backup that brings back some of the distinctive elements of Necrontyr culture - the dynasties, for example - and perhaps more of their races original "minds" or "personalities." That provides a more organic path to the new variety of Necrons with minimal rewriting, but you end up in a similar spot - the Necrons are mostly a cursed, soulless race of implacable machines who are led by a handful of individuals with the will and personality to dictate their actions. The star-eater C'tan are now bound to the will of the beings that they once had enslaved. (Although I think a more interesting option might have been for the C'tan to recognize the usefulness of having some of their servants have the power of thought, will, and personality and allow the Necron named characters to act subservient to them - after all, the C'tan just want to eat energy and might not care too much about how the galaxy is run in their wake). Much of the complaints about the lack or personality of the Necrons would be addressed without compromising their previous story.

[@GodOfOrphans]

Even a net gain retcon still has a corrosive effect on canon cohesion, it's why basically every sufficiently big and or long running franchise are such entropic fusterclucks because all the retcons just kept adding up overtime. I don't think THE Newcrons shift was ultimately bad, Trazyn alone more than makes up for it but it was but one of an increasingly less excusable list of retcons overtime and I can't help but feel like the first hit was free and let's not act like nothing was lost the whole vibe of of Oldcrons is very different and have their own appeal that was sacrificed in the shift.

[@kkpratt]

I prefer the updated Necron lore, but Its definitely not surprising to hear that the committed Necron playerbase did not like the 5th edition changes. They played Necrons faithfully under the initial lore, presumably because they liked that lore and didn't want to see it change so drastically.

[@Flavia1989]

Just judging from videos and comments i've seen: There seems to be a big tonal mismatch going on, certainly between old and new necrons. like, both are Grimdark, but it seems like we went from "Unknowable Eldritch horror" to "Dementia" vibes. I would certainly understand if some people don't appreciate that shift. But maybe that tonal mismatch is also there within new necrons ( and again, just judging from 3rd party content about them). Like, the new necrons certainly have retained a lot of the superficial signifiers of eldritch horror, but then i hear you tell me that the "nice" seeming necron lord basically has dementia and i feel the shift in my perception occuring from "Yeah edgy Grimdark undead robots" to "ah, these are just old people condemned to an enternal life of alzheimers". And like, of course thats grimdark as fuck, but its not what i seek when i look up the undead robots, and frankly something that i struggle to take seriously as a faction in a wargame

[@Zectifin]

I prefer the oldcrons story, but they needed a wider variety of units you could adapt and change like every other army. One thing I really liked about 40k was the ability to change units to your liking, and its one of the reasons I never played Warmachine. I made the mistake of starting out with necrons as a teen because I thought they were the coolest. After being stuck with a limited army with units that you couldn't modify I sold them off and switched to Eldar. I still think the oldcrons had a cooler story and were creepier and the new ones make them feel even more like space tomb kings, but at least they have a wider variety of units now.

[@biorad0140]

Cry louder, maybe GW will change them back. Just do it over there so that the rest of us don't have to listen to it.

[@Cthulhuwarlord]

@@biorad0140 go touch grass the dude is nicely putting out their opinion. If that hurts your feelings you should stay off the internet

[@MrEScience]

I want a pack of Wes heads with that silly smile for kitbashing all the versions of him we see in the videos.

[@SusCalvin]

The Tomb Kings of WFB are very close to the newcrons. They had competing courts doing some sort of complicated dynastic intrigue, as happens when every single monarch or noble from millennia gets up at the same time. They had a hierarchy of how deteriorated their minds and senses are, a basic skeleton archer can barely shoot. A lot of tomb king courts and individuals faffed about with their own pet projects, a bunch of them will happily chat.

[@euanmacleod3738]

I wouldn't go as hard as saying the retcon is objectively bad and nobody should like it, but I do think it was a bad mistake that way undermined the appeal of the Necron - they were changed from an alien, unknowable, intractable force unlike anything else we'd ever seen... to being essentially humans with different technology. I've generally gone forwards pretending the character of the faction never changed. I do sympathise a little bit with GW wanting the faction to be more customisable and allow greater variation to give sub factions more identity, as their old lore allowed considerably less creative space there, but they overcorrected to make that space. It's certainly a less menacing or interesting faction now.

[@DarkAlex1978]

I would say that you don't even need to have sub-factions to customize something like the Necrons. It's just a matter of creativity and imagination. For example, I want to made a Necron army in blue, gold and covered in glyphs: I need a sub-faction for that? No and nobody would have anything to complain about, because well, on what basis? Is the same as when you create your own Chapter of Space Marines.

[@mxntalduck]

0:20 "you can't like what i don't like!"

[@akirakasinata-fk8qy]

That's how my necron lord talks 😃

[@markfrankenberry2440]

No matter how you feel about the changes you have admit that without Trazyn the Infinite, the universe would be a much less enjoyable place

[@albertcapley6894]

Necrons were the first faction that got me into 40k, "undead" skeleton robots that were at once terminators (like the skynet variety) and the deadites from army of darkness was absolute gold. 3e Necrons are the best. Necrons are also a complex and ancient people who conquered the galaxy, and were never actually defeated, they just said fuck it, and went to sleep for millions of years, for, reasons nobody else really understood at the time, but their reawakening has revealed much more than even the Eldar could remember. 5e Necrons are the best. How? They are the same Necrons, there is a black library book called Xenosarium, or something like that, which reveals a lucid Necron lord several years before 5e, for he outwitted at least two inquisitors, and fooled the wider inquisition by... Well, I wouldn't want to spoil too much, but suffice it to say, the only thing that was lost between editions was the retcons to the war in heaven, and the pariahs (the latter being the only part I'm bummed about because GW was really going somewhere with the pariahs, and the necrontyr blades used by Culexius assassins, but all of that is in the past. They could have kept them, I mean they added other elite units, and that would have been cool, the pariah could represent an "auxiliary" of harvested human blanks, that was a really cool part of old lore, they had a scary thing going with the number of humans they would kidnap alive, and this kept them from actually being a one trick pony. They were never totally mindless, so making just under half of their units into more or less lucid individuals was a good choice. Making them space Egyptians was fine also, because they have always low-key been the Tomb Kings in spaaaaaace. Both codex versions are the same, and therefore the best, but the first one is the most fun, and I really like the era of 40k when the Imperium first becomes aware of them, Dark Heresy is prior to that, and this allows for them to start out as mysterious and scary, and then transition to badass and scary over the course of a tabletop campaign, depending on how much time you want it to cover.

[@halfmask3]

The problem with the C'tan critique where the whole faction was embodied by them instead of the Necrons, is that very trait is still at the heart of the faction, only instead of goofy Deceiver plots we have Trazyn the loota. And to people who were introduced during third edition this was such a drastic change in direction that it created decade long whiplash trauma and left them completely disenfranchised. You had a story built up around your C'tan, well now you can either dump that story on an Overlord, or abandon it entirely because the C'tan went from gods to pokeball genies. And they didn't even attempt to cater to the actual players by saying some of the C'tan still existed and ruled over Necrons, instead the story unanimously said they were gone. The idea that writing Necrons was harder or more boring than writing space marines is laughable. Space Marines are special forces who show up to do what they do best. Every Single Time. The epitome of a one trick pony. Necrons are horror, it's a different trick, but its not a lesser trick, or a trick with fewer options. Unless you believe that horror is a weaker genre than war journals, or that humans have to win every book. Interest in the Necrons did wane, of course, because GW spent 9 years doing other things. Without constant love all the factions tend to languish, not because a relatively new army didn't have a lot of paint schemes yet.

[@BunAndDun]

I can't see how anyone could say they aren't grimdark. Messing up so bad that everyone loses their flesh and souls, going to sleep and waking up with robot dementia, almost all losing their will and mind, some going mad and trying to eat flesh with no mouth isn't grimdark?

[@whythelongface64]

Unless the boot soles of the characters are equipped with teleporters connected to a maternity ward, it's not enough for some folks

[@Sphendrana]

@@whythelongface64Those types are often obsessed over the Demonculaba, even though it's original iteration was barely a paragraph of description. Stuff like that titillates their mental sickness. They also constantly fail to grasp that 40k is satire. We don't talk to those people.

[@CardSharkOfficial]

The Infinite and the Divine and Severed really cemented the image of mustachio twirling comic reliefs, which I think is a disservice to the faction (no matter how much I loved reading them)

[@berilsevvalbekret772]

​@@CardSharkOfficialif thats what you got from them then you lack reading comprehension

[@Esoteric_Athlete]

They aren’t this cosmic horror anymore. They have petty arguments with each other. Sounds fkin clumsy

[@TornadoADV]

I prefer the Oldcrons over the Newcrons, I loved the dire implications that the Pariah gene was a hostile long term species neutralizer to destabilize the Chaos forces of the immaterium for their eventual return (and to protect the fabric of reality)

[@silvercat18]

I always felt that the new necrons ended up being petty, silly and ended up seeming a bit sad. They basically ended up like eldar, but without any real self reflection. They came across as a race of failures whose great deeds no longer really meant anything - but where the eldar struggled to get back up (or keep what they had in the case of dark eldar), the Necrons just seemed to be doing....not that much. I can root for the all the other factions, but the Necrons just seem to be a story that has been told. Maybe if they went down the route of Vampire Counts rather than tomb kings i could get behind that.

[@DuskyPredator]

I mostly know from things like this channel, but I find the Necrons as is ome the most interesting factions. And the old lore is really cool as an idea other people that might know a little could assume they are. I think there was a video on this channel that had a story where Necrons all of a sudden decided to communicate with humans for the first time because they thought in one situation collaborating with them would be beneficial. It was some element of the idea that for so long they could be assumed to be mindless robots assumed to be something like a hive mind controlling them as machines do, and then out the blue finding out you totally misunderstood them and they just thought that lowly of humans. Like the idea of assuming the enemy is just a mindless hoard of zombies, perhaps directed by dark forces, but then finding out they are revenants (using a dnd term). And they both terrifying in being so powerful they are controling those dark gods, and are a lot more complex. Knowing even their experience that they are actually still sentient, and story elements of say glitching on their digital minds, are also kind of terrifying.

[@LordIrisofNecropolis]

I actually played both necrons and Tyranids back in 3rd edition, and I still hate newcrons to this day. I never hated them for the lore changes or anything like that though. My problem was that the news agent shop I was employed by to do paper rounds closed down when their news paper suppliers stopped sending newspapers for a week. They couldn't afford to give the refunds each day, so they closed shop and retired. I could not buy another games workshop model until well into 5th edition. From me losing my job at 16 until I started claiming job seekers allowance after college at the age of 21, the 4th and 5th editions came out. I decided to try getting back into it, I polished off my army, put my pariahs and tomb spiders together and headed to my local GW location that had just opened, only to find that my entire army was worthless. The only 2 models of my army that could be used were the warriors and scarabs. My lord and Nightbringer was disallowed becaues they were old models, and my Nightbringer's scythe head kept falling off. My Pariahs and Tomb Spiders were gone too. The Monolith got a new model too, so I had to scrap that. This heavily broke me. I LOVE undead armies. I play necromancers in every game I can, I loved the necrons and felt like a necromancer at the table whenever they got back up or shrugged off damage. I have fond memories of ramming Kharn the Betrayer and melting my other friend's fire prism with the monolith in the warhammer club I ran in highschool. Removing rules for models I paid for, disqualifying older models I paid for, rendering most of the army I had built obsolete and worthless... that kinda destroyed my desire to ever buy another model. I'll also add that they did this with my tyranid army too. Most of the models had obsolete or removed glands that I added. The toxin sacs and the adrenal glads, the extended carapace options... These were removed in later editions and I was told my entire army was illegal. I had to rebuy everything if I wanted to play in store. I didn't have a warhammer club to lead, it was just me on my own trying to get back into the hobby. I ended up trying with Tyranids, but then the rules changed again, just as I got an army together. I ended up handing every single model I had, all the old and new ones, off to a friend who still collected and didn't buy another model until I bought the stormcast eternals vs chaos set for fantasy. I only did that to pilfer the models for a D&D game I was running. I needed a bunch of death knights and angelic warriors. In the end, I don't hate Newcrons because of the lore, I hate the changes in both Necrons and Tyranids becaues they removed me from the hobby entirely. It broke my trust in the brand. There's no point sinking so much time, effort and money into a hobby when the company that runs it can just invalidate everything you've done on a whim.

[@ricardopenamcknight6407]

I kinda get it. As you said yourself, before they were almost lovecraftian because they were mysterious, inscrutable and utterly inhuman. There is a different kind of psychological/body horror in their new lore, but it's almost like following the secret inner life of Cthulhu, or growing up and watching your father break down in tears or grow frail in his old age. It does bring one's mind to the innate horrors of our existence, but also I can't look at Cthulhu the same way again after finding out he's claustrophobic, the real world version of the necronomicon isn't half as interesting as the one in my imagination, and there's something very humanizing about watching superman get cancer. Sad? Yes. Horrifying? ...in a way, most certainly... but it's definitely a different flavor.

[@solanumlycopersicum5594]

I do not get why people think old necrons did not have the psychological/body horror element. This is not new. What is new is them essentially being human. Where before it was "I have no mouth and I must scream", now it is "I have a mouth and I am a thester actor which is kinda lame because I have no soul anymore, so my acting sucks and is boring and too long, but still gotta make a living you know. #WageSlave".

[@ricardopenamcknight6407]

@solanumlycopersicum5594 Well sure, though I'm not sure how aware they were of their condition before. Even so I think the changes do yield a different flavor. Someone able to describe his woes at losing his soul and watching his people become insane husks of their former selves has more of a depressing if somewhat melodramatic flsvor compared to the outright horror of "I have no mouth and I must scream".

[@RainrixIasant]

I'm honestly very torn with the whole Necron change thing (I was there when Sanctuary 101 was wiped out, I'm old). BUT yes they did add explanations that some Necrons can be mindless automaton armies controlled by a tomb world's master AI. I am a little annoyed with the whole "They're just Tomb Kings in space" feel... But their characters are fun too. But also now I can play a full Destroyer cult, and the cold and brutally efficient life killers are back.

[@abilawaandamari8366]

I absolutely love the new Necrons; their personalities, and even the more comedic side of them shown in The Infinite and the Divine, actually emphasize how old and powerful they are. They are one of the few factions that have the privilege of not taking anything super seriously and are mostly an isolationist civilization. The faction that could potentially take care of Chaos and Tyranids all on their own can do whatever they want.

[@whiteeye3453]

Their personality are shallow

[@stevenclark2188]

I think Dawn Of War at least had a decent explanation for C'tan showing up in battle: a Necron Lord channels them, kinda like a daemon host.

[@michaelmaguire4147]

20:18 But they weren't "the actual deities" though, they were very specifically "temporary material forms meant to hold a portion of their power" They're the same as Eldar Avatars (conceptually, don't remember enough to say if the stat blocks were fair or not)

[@Grz349]

19:49 you compare having the C’Tan fight to having Nurgle or Khorne on the field, I think that’s also a reason for the change, that part of Necron lore makes them similar to the lower members of the Chaos factions, action for no other reason than the gods willing it. I imagine the changes happened because GW realised Necrons were entirely existing in niches that other factions covered. On an unrelated note, I always found the idea that the Necron’s made the Cadian pylons weird, if they did so why wouldn’t the Eldar have removed them in the time after, they do surround Eldari space after all. It makes more sense if the Necrons effectively won the war in heaven, bottled up the eldari with the pylon’s and retire once the enslavers appear. By the time the Eldar are expanding again the “separation” from their gods is probably already part of their mythology/culture n

[@LabTech41]

It reminds me of the Borg from the Star Trek universe: they too started out as basically automatons that rarely if ever spoke, and were seemingly all-powerful and attacking from the margins. That's fine when you're dealing with a threat that only popped up once or twice a series, but when Voyager came out and basically made about a quarter to a third of their episodes going through Borg territory, that couldn't be maintained because an all-powerful monolithic threat isn't believable as a valid threat, because either it's boring, or it should be able to defeat you conclusively. Eventually, they had to dumb them down and humanize them so that they could be more readily acceptable.

[@Ravewood]

Much of the early 40k races and lore was basically turning warhammer fantasy into a sci-fi game. Knights became space marines, Elves became eldar, orks... got guns?... Orks didn't change much... The 3rd edition necrons are space skeletons/undead and their backstory reinforced that with ranks of mindless skeletons as the core of the army. Of course their 3rd edition rules were basically we are space marines but better at almost everything and regenerate. I am happy this changed. I played against the necrons a few times in 3rd edition and completely wiped the table with them until the monoliths were all that was left and then those single handedly destroyed my entire army as my las cannons pinged off them like rain drops. They are much more interesting to fight now and when I started playing 40k again with 9th edition, I ended up with a necron indomitius half and now have 5k+ points of necrons. Some 3rd edition necrons still had personality and self awareness. That is part of what made lords, lords; their strength of will allowed them to retain parts of their personalities after the biotransferance. Also, the biotransferance was in 3rd edition lore, but didn't have a name yet. It is not like the c'tan magically turned the necrotyr into the necrons, the c'tan taught the necrotyr the technology to do so, but then betrayed the necrotyr by devouring their souls during the process. The lords had personality and not all of them followed or were controlled by the c'tan, it just wasn't explored very well because they were so new. The current necrons are much more characterful, but it is more because they have been detailed and developed over the 20+ years they have been around. The 3rd edition backstory didn't indicate there couldn't be named characters, it just hadn't introduced them yet. The groundwork was there though.

[@michaelmaguire4147]

23:00 This is actually my biggest problem (I'm waiting til the end of the vid to make a full comment.) "what I found interesting about the faction" WAS the C'tan. Now they're kinda lame.

[@jamesbigglesworth4677]

You did not mention GorkaMorka and the fore shadowing of the Necrons in that game. Andy Chambers also had sneaked a glipses of them in the back of the rules (3rd Ed if I remeber correctly). He also had his ablilty and responsablities reduced (i do not know why) until he left in 2005. I wonder what he planned to do. Apart from that, great work :)

[@Fugels]

One of the things that I don't often see talked about with The Infinite And The Divine is Trazyn's pathetic habits. When Orikan breaks into his museum, he destroys some artifacts, some of which can be directly tied to Trazyn's own past, and Trazyn quickly gathers up the remains and tries to fix the damage. The whole scene has him looking like a pitiful child and then follows up with him entering an intense rage. Further on, he gets so depressed over the rivalry with Orikan that he breaks into his house, shoots him, and leaves, sad and tired.

[@sarge1408]

I mean, to be fair, I think a lot of people would be sad if a vague colleauge came in and destroyed a family artifact from 1482 bc

[@Fugels]

@sarge1408 can't argue with that, but they really did make trazyn seem extra pathetic and pitiful in that scene. Reading it actually made me sad, it was like watching a dog cry over a broken toy.

[@Bona_Tempora]

Orikan destroyed artifacts from the flesh times, back when the Necrons were still the Necrontyr. I’d say Trazyn had reason to be mad, these were some of the last fragments of art and culture back from when they still had souls. These were some of the most valuable things he owned, not just due to rarity but also a nostalgia for times he barely remembers.

[@charlestillerson1510]

​@@FugelsFind an old veteran and destroy his Shadow Box and pictures of his lost family... you will witness sadness and pain that you might see as pathetic... shortly before seeing the rage that he laid to rest. The Necrons now are less cosmic horror because this addition. But Trayzn in that moment was coming face to face with the futility of his very mission in life. I can't sum this up for you if you're not in later periods of your life... but this is existential dread.

[@tlpineapple1]

​@@charlestillerson1510 They are no less cosmic horror, mindless killing robots is not fucking cosmic horror and this is tiring. However, a petty squabble leading to entities to almost break time merely to avoid court, or unknowingly and uncaringly causing a world of trillions to be killed because you released a weird alien as a prank on that same college, thats cosmic horror. The fact that these entities are so powerful that they arent even aware of the consequences of their actions, and if they are they dont care because those consequences are so far beneath them. Cosmic horror is not JUST the unknowable (as if terminator robots is unknowable.).

[@draketheduelist]

While I am a fervent defender of the way Necrons used to be, I wouldn't describe the change as "less grimdark." That sounds like a ridiculous Motte and Bailey, to be honest. I've never heard that specific complaint before, nor have I made it (not in _this_ context at least...), and it's not the point anyway. I'd be willing to concede that the Necrons themselves got a lot more out of the new fluff. My problem is what was lost and, perhaps befitting of a discussion of the Necrons themselves, if what we gained was worth what was sacrificed. (There's a pretty protracted metaphor of Games Workshop as the c'tan in there somewhere, replacing something dilapidated but with spirit with something more structurally sound but hollow and pointless, all while they harvest our sweet, sweet money...) The c'tan absolutely took it on the chin, and none more than one of my favorite personalities in the entire setting, Mephet'ran, better known as The Deceiver. In the narrative of 40k, the Deceiver was this kind of galactic photobomber, like a xenos version of Cypher. Stories would pop up here and there, hinting at grander machinations with every appearance. I think the Deceiver even _fought_ Cypher at one point, ending in _exactly_ the kind of double count-out you would imagine. Mephet'ran would disguise himself as a planetary governor specifically to honey pot a Callidus Assassin so it could reabsorb her phase sword. One particular story in the Eye of Terror campaign book (IIRC) suggested that The Deceiver led Abaddon to his legendary daemon sword Drach'nyen in an earlier Black Crusade. Speaking of the Black Crusades, the Eye of Terror campaign also introduced the idea that Cadia was marked with these alien obelisks that nobody could figure out, with implications that they were relics from the War in Heaven designed to contain warp rifts, a hint as to the C'tan's motives and possibly endgame. Speaking of the c'tan endgame, who could forget the Pariahs? What _are_ they, and why would the c'tan need so many of them? (Shame that they sucked on the tabletop.) In a number of these stories, Mephet'ran is often portrayed as rather cordial, unusually so for a xenos (or anything in this galaxy, for that matter), actively talking to people, working alongside them, and in one case, reminiscing of some lost era that we never see... nor ever would. The Deceiver wasn't a hive-mind-like entity, something utterly unknowable and impossible to interact with. The Necrons weren't boring (except in the gameplay sense). People were just looking in the wrong places for intrigue, expecting them to fall into some kind of mold of "I am Emperor Necron, master of Necrons!" like every other faction, even the Tyranids. If I had to extend an olive branch to Newcron fans, Mephet'ran in the old fluff was kinda' like what Trazyn is _now._ Y'know why people like Trazyn so much? Because he has a _primarch_ in his basement. Same writing principle: what you are shown should be a foretaste of a much larger world just over the horizon. In the old fluff, the Necrontyr built the c'tan physical bodies to help them fight the Old Ones. And for the record, breaking these bodies did _not,_ in fact, kill the C'tan any more than banishing a Bloodthirster killed Khorne. They were the direct essence of the c'tan, yes, but their bodies are just metallurgic shells which, like most Necron stuff, can self-repair. Pretty much the only thing that could kill a c'tan for good (other than possibly some Eldar psychic shenanigan) was another c'tan. In the transfer to physical containment vessels, the c'tan, once gorgers on the simple radiation of stars, tasted organic essences of the Necrontyr for the first time. It was like getting a hit of smack for them... and it wouldn't be the only time the c'tan would be thwarted by their own appetites. A play of renown performed fairly routinely by the Harlequins implied that Mephet'ran actually started the downfall of the c'tan by instigating a civil war in the species. Mephet'ran was something of a runt among his kin, far from bruisers like the Nightbringer and the Void Dragon, and thus he turned the c'tan against each other so as to escape alive, if not rise to the top along the way. In the Harlequins' play, Mephet'ran convinced one c'tan that tried to eat him to eat _other_ c'tan instead. Chasing Mephet'ran around like a cosmic Bugs Bunny, this other c'tan never got ahold of his intended quarry, instead having gorged itself so fat on other c'tan that it went insane. (This alone says quite a bit about c'tan physiology in its own right. Perhaps c'tan who get eaten _aren't_ destroyed after all, their intelligences lurking within the c'tan who ate them until subsumed into the consumer and erased for good... but who cares anymore? Killing a c'tan is as easy as pressing a button. A child could do it.) This c'tan then collapsed a Dyson sphere around itself and became what we now vaguely understand to be The Outsider. That said, later fluff would attribute this feat to _actual_ Cegoragh, who became an Eldar deity in its own right distinct from Mephet'ran. (The Void Dragon had a similar relationship with the Omnissiah at one point.) Given this history, it's utterly absurd that Mephet'ran, of all creatures in the galaxy, got caught with its pants around its ankles. Especially when one of the most famous stories about the Deceiver involves it escaping this very fate when a _fellow c'tan_ tried it. It wasn't even stated _how_ the Necrons managed to pull this off (and to my knowledge still isn't), which would've gone a great deal towards redeeming it. An event like that is a breeding ground for stories. Legends, even. It's basically Order 66 meets _Gotterdamerung,_ and should by all rights be as important to Necron history as the Horus Heresy is to humans. But in the actual 5th edition codex, where this change was first conceived, it didn't even get a full paragraph to itself. It's just "and then the Necrons destroyed the c'tan." All the context and history that you brought up in your video didn't actually come along until _much_ later by writers desperately attempting to spackle over the gaping holes in the narrative without undermining anything. If anything, this just illustrates what a half-baked mistake it all was. If GW was going to retcon the Necrons like this, they needed to put the work in, and it's easy for a lot of more modern 40k fans to forget just how hard they dropped the ball at the time. I was _there._ It was _not_ as nuanced as you make it out to be. At least not at the time. By all means, build up the culture and personality of the Necrons, but when you build something new by destroying _something old,_ you're going to tick some people off. "Durr, I don't know why people are complaining. In my opinion, the Library of Alexandria looks so much better _on fire."_ I'm sick of pretending this phenomenon is somehow _my_ fault for setting my expectations too high. (Ever noticed how everybody hates big corporations until they churn out something idiotic and lazy, only for their horrid mistake to be defended to the death by fandom tourists?) Even if you like the change, why would anyone have cause to believe that what _you_ like won't be destroyed by somebody else down the line? You think the retcon dragon won't come for you, too? Iconoclasm is cannibalism. Depending on the reader and their penchant for cynicism (and a friendly reminder that _this is 40k_ and cynicism is baked into its identity), you can maybe pull this stunt _once_ before people wise up. I largely blame Matt Ward for the crimes of the Necron retcon. Obnoxious one-upsmanship was sort of his calling card back in the day, and the Necrons were far from the only victims. The "spiritual liege" bit that tarnished the Ultramarines until something _much stupider_ happened. The ritual humiliation of Ka-bandha by the Blood Angels. (Ask me how fun it was as a Tyranid player to hear that the Devastation of Baal was just a setup for Ka'bandha to get dunked on again because _every_ xenos race exists to set up the 40k equivalent of John Cena vs Randy Orton.) Basically _everything_ about the Grey Knights, with special mention to Kaldor Draigo's escapades. And then the Necrons killing their own gods. Geez, if Matt Ward wrote a Tyranid codex, the lore of every faction in the game could be collapsed into a singular colossal belch. This claptrap doesn't make the army look cool. It makes them look ridiculous and entitled. I will _never_ like the Necron change no matter _how much_ it gets changed over the years to make it more functional because I know what that change represents. It was a botch job of the highest order. If I throw my hat in and agree with it now, I'm justifying the _next_ horrid botch job doomed to require a decade and a half of retcons to repair. Cough. Primaris. Cough.

[@weshammer]

It's probably not the main point that the detractors bring up most frequently but I received a bunch of comments that pointed to the infinite and the divine as evidence that the necrons are not grim dark anymore. In fairness it was very clear that these commenters had not actually read the book nor did they understand Trazyn or orikan's character. They had it in their mind that it was just a wacky comedy book and thus was antithetical to what the necrons used to be. That is how the community frames it but it's also not exactly accurate. Not to mention the twice dead King series goes in the opposite direction and is very serious, But they never mentioned those books. after seeing the same thing repeated for like the 30th time I decided I wanted to talk about it.

[@draketheduelist]

@@weshammer To be fair, I've never read _The Infinite and the Divine_ either. I just call it like I see it. I don't think I have to be an afficionado on various mutations and minor iterative changes to the fluff over the years to be able to contribute to the conversation when the same thing I've been saying since 2010 isn't any less true unless GW has surreptitiously apologized since then. (I heard Pariahs came back... kinda'.) I've heard good things about _I&D,_ but I haven't heard these glowing remarks from anybody whose opinion and / or taste I really trust on the matter, and so I remain ambivalent. Maybe it's grimdark. Maybe it's not. I can't say. I gave up on 40k as a whole for reasons entirely unrelated to this (though to be fair, it didn't help...). But what I _can_ say is that the entire premise, good or bad, was built on the shaky ground of the ill-conceived 5th ed retcon. The retcon, and a lot of the people who like it, needlessly devalue and often undersell the merits of what came before. The old lore never got a fair shake, as you can see a lot of in your comments. I wanted to stick up for it, even if it's considered out of fashion to do so, and really give a proper showing as to why it was so beloved in the first place. Why not? I failed to see anybody else doing it for me. It actually wouldn't even be all that hard to make the old and new fluff compatible. It's not as if the pre- and post-retcon Necron lore versions are at war and you have to pick one. All that stuff about the Secession Wars? Necrontyr politics and governance? Biotransferrence and the varying degrees of quality based on social class? The Silent King? All well and good. Just get rid of the c'tan genocide. Make it so that the c'tan decided to pursue their own interests across the galaxy and fragmented _themselves_ to cover more ground. (Possibly to investigate the Cicatrix Maledictum, given this is basically _41k_ now.) This leaves the Necrons more latitude to falll back on the leadership of their original dynasties to pursue their own agendas and basically do everything the Newcrons do now. Except this way, you have Newcrons _and_ the c'tan running around and get the best of both worlds. Only thing you'd lose out on is the obnoxious idea that the Newcrons somehow killed their own gods at the height of their powers off-screen. Even from people who seem to _like_ the retcon, they don't usually seem to _like_ this plot point in particular beyond its role in returning Necrons to prominence in their own lore, which they'd get anyway in my middle-of-the-road version. Losing it isn't exactly resuscitating Thomas and Martha Wayne. Heck, with the jettisoning of the Force Organization Chart, you don't even have to imply that the c'tan are slaves of the Necrons or vice versa anymore, making the castration of the c'tan into hobbled servants and shadows of their former selves a moot point regardless.

[@funnydreadking9237]

Yes, Deceiver fought Cypher, it was during the Gothic war (which was the Deceiver plan).

[@frankvc5899]

Technically you can have Oldcrons if you play as the Empire of the Severed/Sarkon. A tomb world ruled by the AI cause the nobles died to malfunction and spoiler reasons of the book “Severed”

[@MN-jw7mm]

No, you can't. And saying that means you fundamentally didn't understand oldcron lore.

[@sheogorath7915]

I fondly remember the controversy sorrounding their flyers (Night Scythes I believe) when they were first introduced. Now, every flyer in the game with troop transport capacity had to allocate wound rolls to any troops they were carrying when shot down (exploded). Thing is, as described in the lore and info tab of the codex, Night Scythes didn't "carry" troops inside. They had an Invasion Beam that teleported troops from a Tomb World or ship in orbit down to the battlefield. So naturally, the Necron players wanted the flyer to be exempt from rolling this check. People who had to fight against them naturally wanted them to take the roll. GW had to explain in a FAQ that for balancing purposes the troops will have to take the roll regardless of the logic. The debate was fun while it lasted.

[@Esoteric_Athlete]

Definitely prefer the old crons. Just that mysterious unknowable cosmic horror was something I loved - I feel they have too much personality now, too human like, and the petty infighting and politics makes them way less threatening IMO. I liked the lovecraftian feel they had. An uncoming horror you couldn’t reason with. I loved the contrast they had with chaos. Chaos was hell and corruption. The necrons were just oblivion An evil of a different nature, far more unsettling and impossibly more terrifying and powerful They were the definition of grim dark. They are what REALLY got me into warhammer 40k…

[@Breidr]

12:09 Retcons with the Necrons

[@NerdySatyr]

Even in the first Codex, I always assumed the C'tan that we fielded in games were like... The pinky-finger of their actual body/power, a manifestation by them or a body built by the Necron's for them to partially inhabit, obviously unable to wield their full might on the battlefield with them being near-God like beings as it would destroy the constructed bodies/just be a partial manifestation of their true might. Hence why them being destroyed in a game didn't matter so much. Soooo... a bit like a shard!

[@Zectifin]

I'm pretty sure whats what it was described as.

[@MrJerichoPumpkin]

@@Zectifin nope, you were fielding the actual C'tan, still weak from his beauty sleep

[@Ben-p2d7p]

I do like the old Necrons, but without the retcon, it wouldn’t be possible to give them any lore outside of “knockoff terminators want to kill everything to appease gods.”

[@Ben-p2d7p]

Although Chaos Androids was the best iteration.

[@solanumlycopersicum5594]

*Without lore additions. Stuff could have been expanded. Nothing needed to be changed. The vibe could have been kept. They could have remained alien. Least of all did things have to be changed so Necrons are Space Khemri: Essentially humans with funny metal hats.

[@chrisedwards6573]

In the old lore, the Necron were slaves who were used to harvest life to provide energy for their masters. Like zombies, except they were still trapped inside and unable to control themselves; an eternity of slavery and death. In the new lore they're Egyption mummy surrogates who get angry with each other over dumb shit. The lore might be more fleshed out, but it was definitely more open to better possibilities and was definitely more 'grimdark' before the retcon.

[@tauoniclightning6697]

"I am a god. How can you nerf a god? Such a grand and intoxicating innocence" - a c'tan, probably

[@skadrithesalty9874]

I liked them better as unknowable omicidal kill-bots, but I do like Trazyn.

[@danmoran1455]

Merry Christmas and a happy New year to you Wes 🎉🎉

[@foxdavion6865]

As someone who played OG 3rd edition Necrons, then quit the hobby in 2005 to only return 4 years later and suddenly Necrons were now Tomb Kings in space was for me the biggest mental whiplash I had ever experienced in my life to that point and this is coming from a guy who was told by the vet over the phone that my Dog died on the operating table when I was 12 (not cool btw). So yeah, it was a huge shock and a disappointing one. Games Workshop rolled back the doom factor of Necrons a lot for 5th edition and a certain someone is responsible for that, someone who has experienced a lot of harassment for what he did and would likely sue if I mention his name here, so I won't; All I'll say is, he is also responsible for what they did to Blood Angles, why Ultramarines are the posterchild of the setting and he also left the company in 2016 to pursue a career as a novelist which never went anywhere and is now retired from the industry. But what he did changed the setting forever and lead it down the path to where it stands today. Ultimately it may of been a good thing because the direction which the 3rd and 4th edition custodians wanted to take the setting was incredibly grim and incredibly dark, there was no silver lining, there was no hope on the horizon, the fate of the Galaxy was for it to be consumed by the Tyranid then destroyed by the Necrons. If you want to see what the pre-retcon Necrons were like, look no further than the Dark Crusade expansion for Dawn of War and read the 3rd edition Codex. Also, OG Necrons on table top were so terrifyingly OP and were designed so, that all you had to do to win was wipe out a 3rd of the points value to win, if you even managed to do that and yes *all* of their ranged weapons could damage vehicles... all of them, yes their Tanks had structure points... STRUCTURE POINTS as in you had to destroy it TWICE before it was destroyed, at that time only other vehicles which had structure points were super heavy tanks from Forge World and the one Resin Titan model which existed at the time. Oh and also, yes all of their weapons could 1 shot a space marine if you rolled a 6, including their basic infantry weapons, they were that busted.

[@CommanderBohn]

My opinion on this is that while the Crons got some character and depth, they also lost their fear factor they had after 5th ED came (not to mention the nerf to C'Tan). Oldcrons were literally unstoppable angry goth terminators that atomized everything in their path. So much so that of all the factions it was these guys who had the strongest claims to win lore-wise. GW should've had both Oldcrons and Nucrons exist simultaneously with the former being C'Tan slaves who want to genocide everything while the latter being simply conquerors who want to find a way to stop being machines and regain their organic bodies. This would've also had different army lists and rules. With Oldcron C'Tans being HQ choices like they used to be.

[@strangething77]

I'm with you. It would have been so simple to make the oldcrons a subfaction in the new Necron codex.

[@Randalor]

Honestly, the only major thing I miss from the oldcrons were the Pariahs. There was just something about the lore behind them and the way people with the Pariah gene were written when it came to the Necrons in the pre-5th edition codex, where best-case scenario Necron warriors would seem to recognize them and hesitate to fight them until they're attacked (Ciaphas Cain's Jurgen), and worst case scenario, people with the Pariah gene were actively looking for Tomb Worlds and willingly going for conversion (Dawn of War). As far as I know, they've just been completely wiped, not even a "Trazyn has some tucked away in a display as a "failed experiment" nod.

[@carnosaur93]

just an important correction, you could never actually field the C'tan themselves on the tabletop, the models were always described as an avatar of living metal essentially partially posessed by the non-physical c'tan, only containing a fraction of their actual power. (this also makes it seem kinda bonkers that the newcrons could just kill the actual c'tan gods, not just an avatar, which personally i don't think is a good thing, because then either the necrons themselves are way too OP or the C'tan got severely downscaled for that to make sense) As a side note i hate that they gave ancient undead alien robots humanity, like, they really didn't need that. the setting already has humans and many aliens with lots of humanity, necrons provided something different and unique to that. telling stories through implications and evidence of what was, rather than just being some eccentric space guy. A lot of defense of the new lore seems to assume that lore would have never progressed or expanded if it had not been conpletely retconned, but that extremly unlikely to be true. A lot of the same characters, stories, etc could still had been present in the old version, but told as a "what once was" juxterposing the now souless essentially undead versions of those wild grander than life character, only adding to the tradigy of it all. like how dark souls does things.

[@thetowerofbabble6307]

What people need to remember is that most Necrons still don’t have true personalities or free will. Only the highest echelons still retain theirs, and even then many of them are degraded or warped beyond their original form. Also, WE the audience are mostly the only ones who know so much about the Necrons and what’s going on behind the scenes. To everyone else, they’re still the endless horde of metal men who seek their doom. Change is inevitable, but that doesn’t mean everyone in the universe is suddenly going to be aware of it.

[@weshammer]

Yeah I probably should have highlighted this in the actual video but you make a very good point. From the Imperium's perspective nothing has changed lol. They are the same mindless horrors they have always been. They communicate via encoded glyphs and wave lengths imperceptible to humans, so they are even still silent.

[@Pylon069]

46:54 i think they are more "fleshed" out with the 5th edition and was interesting as it is

[@The-Avien]

The new Necron lore does not exist in my headcanon. It’s best not to let GW mess with the things you like. Just take the bits that you like and ignore the stupid stuff. The Dolman Gates are a stupid retcon. In Battlefleet Gothic Armada supplement it was explained that Necrons used actual FTL like warp drive and that really spoke to their advanced nature that they didn’t need to rely on the warp for FTL in any guise. But the dolman gate reduced them to parasites of the old ones creations. This is the kind of retcon that I ignore.

[@solomani-42]

Soul bound intelligent machines works well. But I get the “undead tide” version as well.

[@TSInfiMa-r6z]

Necrons treating humans nicely mostly because they have damaged mental engrams, seeing kroots, humans and eldar as necrontyrs. That's hilarious.

[@KomboAndy]

that's exclusively Nemesor Zandrek. The other ones think differently.

[@TSInfiMa-r6z]

@@KomboAndy There is a Necron overlord who is just like Nemesor in the novel Kasrkin. Most of the other ones want to destroy or enslave other species.

[@corbingovers7559]

In Twice Dead King: Ruin, the protagonist notes that there is a large similarity between the Necrontyr and Humanity, just about 65 million years and biotransferrence displaced. Not enough for him to not want to wipe them off the galactic map, but enough to respect their power.

[@pyerack]

The new lore elevated the Crons into being the origin of the entire setting. Literally all the events in 40k originate from their actions. No idea how anyone can think that's a bad thing.

[@sleeplessknight99]

I always preferred them being mindless automatons who's strings are being pulled by the C'tan and the origins of the setting left vague and mysterious.

[@EnterpriseC14]

Honestly, they still are mindless robots being controlled by evil deities. Those deities are just Pharaohs of the Necrons with a personality

[@jamesfreeman3617]

Also we sill have a bit of that old style whith the flayed ones

[@auricstorm]

I've always played Eldar, I remember when Necrons first came out and my mate got a little army I killed his NightBringer (the god, not the shard) with a concentrated volley of sniper fire from my rangers. That felt really cool. They definitely felt more... inevitable?... in 3rd edition. Lots and lots of warriors all that look the same, same with the scarab swarms. Force for entropy, with a very few options for individuality... The floating weapon guys (destroyers?) were just Necrons who a ctan had forcibly upgraded, and the flayed ones were kinda broken oddballs and the pariahs were the anti-Old Ones weapon I kinda onboard with the idea that the more exotic weapons (aka the newer variety of codex choices, snipers etc) are woken by a central intelligence escalating as previous lower/cheaper options can't win (such as the warriors and scarabs)