Did Irish martial arts exsist?

[@toddellner5283]

Every nation, every people, has its ways of fighting. Ireland is no exception.

[@iloveponis]

Not only is Ireland not an exception, it's an great example of a martial culture in general.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Yeah i`d like to see stuff on the Celtic Revival mate

[@ramblingkern]

Definitely something I can do a lot of misconceptions around Irelands past come from this movement and it's pretty interesting.

[@johnnymism]

There was local forms of wrestling in Cornwall, Lancashire (catch), Cumberland and Northumberland so I'm sure its the same to in Ireland.

[@ramblingkern]

Yes at one point collar and elbow was one of the most widely practiced forms of wrestling in the west.

[@O3177O]

Hurling , training for kerns , blocking , striking , palm punches , flanking

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Yup, absolutely. Hurling also used to allow wrestling throws and trips.

[@forestreader]

They may not have called it 'martial arts' per se but I'm reasonably certain Irish dudes have been wailing on each other with sticks since time immemorial. Yeah

[@nevisysbryd7450]

Yep. People imagine 'martial arts' as relatively rigid forms and techniques with highly defined categorization and hierarchy. They also view it as something elegant and refined in contrast to 'savage' or 'brutal' simplistic raw brawling-or in more direct terms, as Wushu in contrast to Western combat methodology as depicted by fashionable (gaslighting) media pitting superpowered (especially East) Asian characters against 'regular'/simpelton thug Westerners in mid-late 20th century media, especially American and Chinese cinema. Given their international influence (especially in English-as-first-language nations), it has had a pretty outsized effect.

[@ramblingkern]

Yes tribalism in martial arts is very old and everyone likes to say that they have all of the answers which of course nobody does.

[@schizoidboy]

I'm not an expert on martial arts but what is said here sounds spot on. I also think when it comes to martial arts there are often similarities in fighting styles. In one book called The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe they show methods on how to defend against a knife, the techniques look a lot like Jujitsu, but they wouldn't have had any contact with Japan at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if a judo expert might find styles of wrestling in Ireland to be similar to judo. Wrestling techniques such as hip throws and shoulder throws are found in Asian martial arts. How they're taught is not the same as Asia which is very formalized, but in the West having a coach teach a technique is viable. In fact, in his books on self-defense and police tactics martial artist Bruce Tenger suggested that having a background in physical education was more important than having a black belt, so a sports coach would fit that requirement.

[@schizoidboy]

Sorry I got the name wrong, he was Bruce Tegner.

[@ramblingkern]

Very well said. There are many overlaps in styles but often how they are taught and practiced is key.

[@cindabearr]

Martial arts, by definition, is the acquisition or building of skills in self defense or attack, usually pertaining to war. As there are craft arts, visual arts, musical arts, so there are martial arts. And the variations within each are vast! I am in the US - i find it interesting that many native Irish say they don't recognize Irish stick fighting, when we (diaspora) are told over here from childhood about the blackthorn fighting stick and how the one sitting on your grandmother's hearth could be (and likely was) used covertly to whollop anyone who came to test you. *Edit - I just realized that this may come off really wrong! I meant that of all the things that filtered down through the diaspora, and how much of actual Irishness is lost, it's interesting that we kept a hint of stick fighting in our "Tales of the Old Ways". I did NOT mean it to sound like we knew more about Irishness. We can't. We're American.

[@ramblingkern]

Haha I appreciate the edit but I think this is a major reason why it is viewed so negatively here. I teach two styles of Irish stick and the most popular has it's roots in the Irish diaspora. The reason being these people held onto their traditions with everything they had while Ireland even in my lifetime took massive steps to modernize and change to be a western nation. The issue then happens when Irish people are told by what they view as an outsider that they don't know their own history. It makes it very easy to have a reactionary take and immediately discredit it.

[@cindabearr]

@@ramblingkern ya know, I can completely appreciate that. I can't imagine being told by tourists that they're more American than I am. 🤣

[@ramblingkern]

@@cindabearr yeah it's a unique thing that happens but as far as I'm aware the amount of Irish diaspora far outnumbers our own population so we only have ourselves to blame haha.

[@Robobagpiper]

Have you ever touched on stick fighting in the Scottish Gàidhealtachd? I think we can presume it existed, and was fundamentally similar to Irish stick fighting. My interest comes from a fun little tune in Simon Fraser (1816), "Buailidh mi thu anns a' cheann" (I'll break your head for you). Fraser writes that it is "a genuine lively air of the Isle of Skye, sung and danced at the same time, the name of which shews, that while the male dancers exert their agility, the one half must preserve a posture of attack, and the other half a posture of defense". This seems like a sparring song that got codified into a dance at some point. Have you ever encountered anything similar in the Irish context?

[@ramblingkern]

I know the Scots have a rich tradition of sword dancing there is one I know of in Ireland iirc from around the 1500s you can find the full story over on the wylde Irish blog. Weapon ownership as far as I'm aware was a little more lax in Scotland so it's possible some of their material was single stick.

[@conlethberry1236]

@@ramblingkern speaking of dancing and songs etc, the "Rocky Road To Dublin" written in the mid 1800s clearly references letting loose with a shillelagh on some poor old boys in Liverpool. The author, a galway man, woud have used the shillelagh in the song as a weapon because it actually meant something to people at that time... fighting with a shillelagh. Now it only stands to reason that if it was used for fighting, people trained with it to be better than others that used it as well, clear as day then it was a martial art. I think the issue in Ireland is that (like you said) we all know about the finer arts, GAA and hurling, poetry, prose, short stories, theatre, the language, music and song, but very few know of pugilism, collar and elbow, and stick fighting. Like you said it did not fit with what we as Irish were trying to put forward as our culture but fell within the stereotype used to denegrade us. So its understandable that it was pushed to the side. Funnily enough I remember back when I was a kid in the 70s, and old neighbor of mine (who would have died in the 70s) jokingly referred to his shillelagh as his fighting stick. I've know idea what he meant, but it does evoke some wishfuk thinking on my part.

[@ramblingkern]

@@conlethberry1236 yes a number of songs referenced their use and even shillelagh law or the code of conduct fighters had is referred to in Finnegans wake

[@ThereIsOnlyWar40k]

There was defo a thing of people learning combat in one area, and it has a name relating to the local clann. I would even consider the curriculum in the Garda training as a martial art. When you think about it, there's like over 6,000 guys that trained the same fighting style from the same school.

[@ramblingkern]

As far as I know they do learn a specific martial art now I think some style of Japanese ju jitsu. But a very good point you make mate.

[@lifesahobby]

The funeral games consisted of hurling, athletic, gymnastic and equestrian contests of various kinds, running, long-jumping, high-jumping, hurling, quoit-throwing, spear-casting, sword and-shield contests, wrestling, boxing, handball, swimming, horse-racing, chariot-racing, spear or pole jumping, slinging contests, bow-and-arrow exhibitions, and every sort of contest exhibiting physical endurance and skill. I was hoping stick fight is included in the sub note of every type of endurance skill

[@ramblingkern]

There was no need at this point as they had access to weapons stick fighting is interesting as it comes out of a necessity to train with things other than conventional weapons.

[@lifesahobby]

@@ramblingkern was that because the weapons were restricted ?

[@ramblingkern]

@@lifesahobby yes indeed due to the penal laws for a considerable amount of time owning a weapon was completely prohibited.

[@lifesahobby]

@@ramblingkern I know a bit about this period .

[@ramblingkern]

@@lifesahobby excellent. I tend to over explain so other viewers who see the questions get some context on it all too.

[@hornetnezt]

You answered my question over a year ago very well regarding the dress of Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish during the Plantation era. I'm coming back to ask now what did the different sides during the Eleven Years' War carry as far as arms, armor, and clothing? Namely the Catholic Irish Confederate forces and Protestant Ulster forces like the Laggan Army? I can never find any good illustrations or descriptions. The books from Helion called "RAW GENERALS AND GREEN SOLDIERS: Catholic Armies in Ireland 1641-43" and "THE ARMY OF OCCUPATION IN IRELAND 1603-42: Defending the Protestant Hegemony" seem promising, but only cover parts with the latter not even having illustrations at all. Of course, we're not in the era of standing professional armies yet in the British Isles with the sides not being 100% uniform. I'm just kind of looking for a general outline. May potentially be a worthy video subject. Thanks!

[@ramblingkern]

As far as arms and armour pike and shotte was order of the day. Thanks to the efforts of various groups in Ireland pikes were the main weapon of the Irish with imported guns and swords from the mainland. Clothing was almost exactly what you would find in England as most traditional clothing was banned and taxes and Levy's were in place to make the Irish wear English clothing. As for the English forces you can look at muster roles they will give you a very accurate idea of what was being used.

[@hornetnezt]

@@ramblingkern Thanks as always! I figured as such. It just helps our perception of history in my opinion to understand clothing and arms. Do you think it was easy to distinguish enemy units without seeing their standards? I imagine you know the lot you march in with and anyone you don’t know is well…free game. In the backcountry theatre of the American War of Independence, often the only way to identify each other was a thistle or bucktail in the hat. This all an important part of material culture as well. Where could I locate these muster rolls and quartermaster/ordnance reports? It’s easy in the US but at a loss for where to start with Europe. Also, trying to find orders of battle in general for the Eleven Years War is hard since a lot of its engagements were seemingly “small war” skirmishes and not often full pitched battles. Cheers from the southeastern US!

[@ramblingkern]

@@hornetnezt i think it would depend on the period in the war earlier on it might have been harder but towards the end especially when Cromwells forces and the new model army are involved things would look noticeably different. I would also suggest looking at English civil war reenactment groups they do a ton of amazing work in the period and you will be hard pressed to find much information from Ireland. As for the musters etc I think it's national archive.gov.uk that will have them.

[@ramblingkern]

@@hornetnezt there is also civil war petitions .ac.uk and the Cromwell museum all have great info available

[@lifesahobby]

Interesting bit of insight thanks

[@ramblingkern]

Thank you mate.

[@nothim7321]

The short answer: Of course.

[@lifesahobby]

The irish taught the Egyptian princes how to sail. Sailing is a discipline. Off topic but a discipline involves multi layered learning . Have you ever heard of the funeral games ?

[@nothim7321]

Ummm, citation and context needed for that first sentence...

[@lifesahobby]

@@nothim7321 Research assistant at your service . Hope you find it . This reminds me when a college kid refused to admit the sun produced more than heat and light . I'm sorry I cannot stay for dinner tonight, I have a flight to Detroit to make .

[@lifesahobby]

@@nothim7321 Manannán mac Lir and queen ti . Manhattan . The problem as I saw it with review process is it looks at the plug and only the socket it fits . It misses the wall to which the socket is attached , the room in which the wall is standing and the chewed up box in the centre of the room . It also in my experience , mocks the man chewing the box looking in the window . I've just had some very bad experience with it . Do you know about the history of the Maguire's ?

[@williamcryts5337]

There is a written source of irish stick? What book is this at 4:50?

[@ramblingkern]

@@williamcryts5337 there are multiple sources of Irish stick this one is by R. G. Allanson-Winn and has a section dedicated to his experiences with Irish stick fighters.

[@williamcryts5337]

@@ramblingkern Thanks. I am behind the times. I was still under the impression the sources were mainly secondary and not primary.

[@ramblingkern]

@@williamcryts5337 there are tons of first hand accounts and a few technique examples just not big manuals like longsword etc. but that does not diminish it's credibility

[@williamcryts5337]

@@ramblingkern of course. I have no axe to grind against verbal traditions. Thanks again and good luck in your research.

[@ramblingkern]

@@williamcryts5337 appreciate it mate and that's good to hear sorry if I came across as defensive I encounter it way too much.

[@diegomdonola7188]

Amazing channel. Thanks for the video

[@ramblingkern]

Thanks for the support mate.