Did Jesus Even Claim to be God? Bart Ehrman Says No...

[@CosmicSkeptic]

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[@VndNvwYvvSvv]

"scholar" lol. World's most famous perfidious nonchristian subverter. One glance at his photos tells us why.

[@barkatthemoonlunatic1715]

@@VndNvwYvvSvv So you have these super powers that let's you know all about a person based on the way they look?

[@VndNvwYvvSvv]

@@barkatthemoonlunatic1715 Don't be so reductive. It's disingenuous. Tell me what you eat, and I'll tell you what you are. Anyone can tell a great deal from a glance at Ehrman if they know history, but I can't even explain it here or my comments will just be deleted. Can't say why for the same reason. You should be able to piece that together at least. Suffice it to say that he has vested interior motives many are aware of.

[@barkatthemoonlunatic1715]

@@VndNvwYvvSvv Thanks for making perfects sense. Keep eating those mushrooms.

[@VndNvwYvvSvv]

@@barkatthemoonlunatic1715 He's a rabid anti-Christian. From a group that is historically such, whether each individual is secular or not. What's difficult to understand? Do I need to get out my crayons? I'm kind of afraid you'll just try to eat them.

[@bob3ironfist]

Thanks to Bart Erhman for pointing out that people don't have to be lying and instead just be mistaken. It always bothers me when people say if it's not true, then the witnesses were lying. It's a silly binary.

[@TonyB2]

Thoughts on the dramatic change in action after the apostles claim to have witnessed the risen Jesus? Peter goes from cowardly denying Jesus prior to His death to boldly preaching His resurrection, even to the point of a gruesome death.

[@jesan733]

@@TonyB2 the lack of historicity for the apostles' deaths is mentioned late in the vid. Perhaps you should listen to the whole vid before commenting?

[@hubertagamasu6283]

@@jesan733 Ehrmann was straw-manning the evidence. The point is NOT whether or not the disciples died, but that THEY WERE WILLING TO SUFFER, EVEN IF THAT LEADS TO DEATH. That's what shows they were convinced and were not making this up. Whether or not they die through that persecution is immaterial. Their willingness to go through it is what explais their conviction. Ehrmann cannot argue the early disciples were not persecuted, so he resorts to a straw man of saying we cannot be sure they actually died in persecution. Secondly, Ehrmann did not even argue that they did not die; he only pleaded agnosticism claiming we cannot know the truth because the stories were embellished (e.g. milk coming out of the heads of the disciples). But is that not the very job of a historian, to flesh out the truth from embellishments? Ehrman is sitting here claiming to flesh out the truth about Christ from the "embellishments of Christianity". So why can't he also strip off the embellishments of the deaths of the disciples and tell us what actually happened?

[@MrYelly]

@@hubertagamasu6283 You are desperately grasping. Even if there were accurate accounts of the lives and deaths of the apostles, and even if they were convinced that their cause was just and true; it still does not lead to any evidence. "that THEY WERE WILLING TO SUFFER, EVEN IF THAT LEADS TO DEATH" In your words, islamic martyrdom and hindus setting themselves on fire, somehow proves that all their gods are real. I don't see how that follows, or how it that is even remotely coherent or rational. If I am willing to die for ghosts, it does not mean ghosts are real; more likely is that I am suffering from a condition or a stroke and require immediate treatment. History is buried and muddied through time; Ehrmann adresses that not everything can be known or fully transparant; nor does it need to be in the context of folk-tales. And that is already more intellectually honest than anything that ever came out of any church. Bible humpers are pathetic.

[@Wertbag99]

@@hubertagamasu6283 From what I understand we only have church traditions from many centuries later saying what became of the disciples. For Bart to lean towards there being insufficient evidence to come to a conclusion seems to be a fair position to hold. We have no clear evidence as to what happened to most of the disciples, they mostly drop off the radar after the NT. If we can confirm some were executed, that doesn't mean that it was for the crime of blasphemy, or that there was any possibility that they could have been saved by renouncing their faith. Even if you can somehow show that they died due to their beliefs and stuck to those beliefs when they could have been saved, then as you say that would only show they were convinced of their beliefs but not that those beliefs were true. We know of plenty of Muslims who will die for their beliefs, but we would both agree those beliefs are false regardless of how convinced they are.

[@cherryjuice9946]

It's enjoyable to listen to a civilized discussion, with no fake drama. This was an hour well spent.

[@ossiedunstan4419]

Their is nothing civilised about religious rhetoric.

[@davidshaffer511]

@@ossiedunstan4419 Then you should like this discussion all the more, for it destroys a great deal of religious rhetoric.

[@colacurciolaw7745]

Amen! 😊

[@SabbathDay]

2 PETER 3:3-13 Above all, you must understand that in the last days SCOFFERS will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “WHERE IS THIS COMING” He promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a DAY IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS, and a THOUSAND YEARS ARE LIKE A DAY. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME LIKE A THIEF. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

[@MossyMozart]

@elusive4072 - So, are you trying to say, in a roundabout way, that the New Testament writers "are the wicked" that "leads to ruin"?

[@wagsman9999]

It’s amazing what you learn about Christianity outside of the church.

[@hubertagamasu6283]

Nothing amazing about a man who appeals to early sources one moment and throws them under the bus the other moment. I agree ,though that it's the laziness of the church in engaging Ehrman on his confused theology that has given him such boldness to be spewing nonsense.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@hubertagamasu6283 "such boldness to be spewing nonsense." Can you name some examples that you regard as nonsense?

[@hubertagamasu6283]

@@pineapplepenumbra Read Mark 14:61-63 and ask yourself whom the Son of Man is, according to Christ. If you think Jesus is calling himself the Son of man (which Ehrman denies), then you understand Ehrman's intellectual dishonesty and nonsense.

[@pineapplepenumbra]

@@hubertagamasu6283 Firstly, no one was there, so how would you know what was said? Secondly, it's a bit ambiguous, how is the "Son of Man" defined? Remember, there's a lot of bollocks talked about the bible, such as who Lucifer is, who the serpent in the garden was, etc. 60 "Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

[@kylecampbell1532]

@@hubertagamasu6283 You're speaking about intellectual dishonesty, but you believe a man died and rose from the dead, even though it has never happened before or since in the history of the world. THIS is intellectual dishonesty, and it's why you must accept that your beliefs are FAITH. Please learn the meaning of words and terms before you use them to try and look smart.

[@timweaver7826]

One thing I love about Christians is they say, "We have to have faith." But the disciples didn't have faith, they had to see magic tricks to believe he was the guy. So why shouldn't we get to see magic tricks too? Why do we have to take the word of them they actually saw the magic tricks? If a bunch of hippies came out of the mountain and said, "Hey, Jesus came back and said God changed His mind about destroying the world and he proved he was Jesus by doing miracles for us" would anyone take their word? Of course not.

[@jacobtesta2765]

I could seriously listen to Ehrman talk to hours. His voice is so peaceful and reassuring. And also he speaks straight up facts.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

His laugh is psychodic!

[@borna1231]

Lucky for you actually can 😄! His channel is an absolute treasure trove of information.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

To say that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the three persons are three separate "beings" is an astonishing rookie error for a scholar of Ehrman's fame. Any Catholic who goes to mass on Sundays, weekly recites in the Creed (formulated in Nicaea ad 325, and tweaked in Constantinople ad 381): "I believe in One Lord Jesus Christ (...) *One in being with the Father* ...." I also had a high regard for Bart Ehrman, but this interview was highly disappointing, not only for the above mentioned reason, but also because of his rabid skepticism that comes across as very much ad hoc. For example, he affirms that Jesus was condemned to death by Pilates for calling himself the King of the Jews, which he can only know from the Gospels he much distrusts when they say that he had previously condemned to death by the Sanhedrin for calling himself God. Seems very convenient to pick and choose _from the same source_ whatever best fits his narrative.

[@rustyk4645]

​​@@xaviervelascosuarez didn't you say this on a Different Thread? Word for word? As for ''Picking and Choosing" what to believe in the Gospels... Isn't that what Christianity has done for Millennia?

[@MrYelly]

@@rustyk4645 I am half convinced Xavier is a bot. He just copy and pastes the same incoherent crap everywhere without ever engaging about it. I dont think he understands his own words.

[@vsk6706]

6:04 Did Jesus think the world was about to end? 12:50 Did Jesus claim he was God? 30:00 Did Jesus contradict trinitarianism? 32:39 Did John make up Jesus' divinity? 35:41 Are the birth narratives forged? 42:08 Mistakes and mistranslations in the New Testament 1:01:03 Responding to William Lane Craig on the resurrection 1:26:25 Who did Jesus claim to be? 1:29:40 Outro

[@sebolddaniel]

The centurion made up Jesus's divinity in the Gospel of Mark. Mark came up with his divinity.

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

.Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@sebolddaniel]

@@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT He enjoyed his power.

[@frankmickeyumeh4303]

your quotations don't have a book only numbers😂

[@sebolddaniel]

The Chinese don't use quotes in their language. That is Chinese script. Isnt it? At any rate, thanks for the quotes.

[@JTOG94]

I appreciate so much how genuinely you seek to understand and fairly represent views opposed to yours. I’m a Christian and have adored this channel for the last several years I have been a fan. These are incredibly compelling objections to Christianity. Keep up the good work!

[@hermes7526]

how can you adore this as a christian when this guy all he does is oppose christianity.

[@jakeschwartz2514]

Do you think the Gospel’s are not consistent like Ehrman says in this video? As a Christian?

[@Vizible21]

​@@jakeschwartz2514yes but most Christians hate to admit it because it would mean they have been lied to their whole life.

[@curtisowen]

Same here. I love Alex and Bart 🙏

[@sergius8495]

I do not understand these kinds of comments. Why are you still Christian after watching all of these podcasts? I‘m seriously curious, because these are some hard-hitting arguments, that are very hard to argue against. So what‘s your objection to for example the historicity of Jesus Christ‘s resurrection?

[@KarmasAB123]

I love it when Bart switches into professor mode, letting Alex think through something :D

[@bobgarrett7134]

Bart is a jerk. He's a silly character.

[@75ENVY]

@@bobgarrett7134but a very intelligent fun childlike character. All you would want in a Professor , Teacher or friend

[@bobgarrett7134]

@@75ENVY No he isn't. I want a knowledgeable professor, a learned teacher, and a sincere friend -- not an ignoramus. Bart is about Bart and proving Bart right. Jesus said "I am I AM" ... "Before Abraham was, I am" ... "I am the first and the last, the alpha and the omega" ... "How can you say show us the father? Anyone who sees me has seen the father" ... In these and countless other ways, Jesus revealed his divine nature. He not only claimed to be God. He is God.

[@UrsaringKrusherX]

​@@bobgarrett7134 he is learned and knowledgeable about the bible, and additionally about history and contexts surrounding jesus' time and place. You on the other hand, only know how to regurgitate verses, dont know how to verify and contextualize the truth claims in the verse against the backdrop of historical evidence. So whos really the silly one?

[@bobgarrett7134]

@@UrsaringKrusherX You're making pretentious, false, and smug claims -- like Ehrman does. He's uttering lies and disinformation that fit his atheist views. He's ignoring historical proofs, writings, and archeological history. Critics used to believe the Bible was wrong because they felt that King David was a legendary, mythical character. They pointed to the fact that there was no archaeological evidence that King David was an actual historical figure. But then … in 1994, archaeologists discovered an ancient stone slab in northern Galilee that was inscribed with the references to King David and the "House of David." Critics used to believe the Bible was wrong because there was no evidence (outside of the Bible) that a group of people called the Hittites ever existed. The Hittite civilization is mentioned approximately 40 times in the Old Testament; thus skeptics were convinced that this proved the Bible is a mythical creation of ancient Hebrew writers. But then … in 1906, a German archaeologist named Hugo Winckler was excavating in Boghaz-Koi, Turkey, and discovered the capital city of the ancient Hittite empire, the entire Hittite library and 10,000 clay tablets documenting the Hittite history. Scholars translated these writings and discovered that everything the Bible said about the Hittite empire was true. Critics used to believe that a king named Belshazzar never really existed, thus calling into question the historicity of the book of Daniel, which mentions this Babylonian king. But then, in 1854, Henry Rawlinson discovered an inscription in Iraq that named Belshazzar as the oldest son and co-regent of King Nebonidus, who would often leave Belshazzar in charge of Babylon while he traveled. This discovery also helped to clarify Daniel 5:29, which states that Daniel was elevated to the “third highest ruler in the kingdom.” Critics used to believe the book of Acts was not historically accurate. A man named Sir William Ramsay, who is well known to be one of the greatest historical scholars and archaeologists in history, decided to try to disprove the Bible as the inspired Word of God by showing that the book of Acts was not historically accurate. But then, after 30 years of archaeological research in the Middle East, Ramsay came to the conclusion that “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy … this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians.” He later wrote a book on the trustworthiness of the Bible based on his discoveries and converted to Christianity. Sir Ramsay found no historical or geographical mistakes in the book of Acts. This is amazing when we realize that in the book of Acts, Luke mentions 32 countries, 54 cities, nine Mediterranean islands and 95 people and he did not get one wrong. Compare that with the Encyclopedia Britannica. The first year the Encyclopedia Britannica was published it contained so many mistakes regarding places in the United States that it had to be recalled. Critics used to believe the Old Testament simply could not be reliable because they felt that over a long period of time the Old Testament writings would have been changed, altered, edited or corrupted. But then, in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. These scrolls contained, among other writings, every book in the Old Testament (except Esther). Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, the earliest copy of the complete Old Testament was from A.D. 900. Scholars compared this copy with the Dead Sea Scrolls (produced around 1,000 years earlier) and found that the Old Testament had been handed down accurately through the centuries. The prestigious Smithsonian Institution’s Department of Anthropology has offered the following official statement pertaining to the historical reliability of the Old Testament ... "The historical books of the Old Testament are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archaeological work.” In other words, not only does archaeological history confirm that the Bible is historically accurate, but professional archaeologists actually use the Bible as a guide in their work. The great Jewish archaeologist Nelson Glueck, who is known to be one of the top three archaeologists in history, has stated the following: "No archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a single, properly understood Biblical statement."

[@Randomsae]

Back in university, I took a course about the beliefs of the early church. The central question was about the consistency of their beliefs. Did they stay the same or do we see a change in what they believed? At the time, I remember looking at Bart Ehrman's views and not finding them too compelling. That probably had a lot to do with my current faith at the time and the biases of my Orthodox professor. He did give a nice balance of views on each topic we discussed in all our classes and provided a lot of opportunity for genuine discussion and disagreement, but his own passion for the topics was also impossible to ignore. Listening to this podcast now years later when my certainty in my faith has been completely shattered and rendered me entirely agnostic, I'm surprised how much I want to believe in the divinity of Jesus. I have my fair share of criticisms over what Christians claim to believe and their contradictions with reality or the way they live, but the incarnation was the most wonderful idea to me. When in contrast with Islam, I find a God who took on the human experience and shared in literal communion with us to be far more compelling than a God who is too far above us to be disgraced in such a manner. I have come to think a less fundamental view of the Bible is the only proper reading of it. People who see the God of the Old Testament as a a depiction of God's people wrestling with their understanding that becomes more and more clear and then revealed fully in The Word, that is Christ made sense....though no understanding of the Bible or Christianity has fulfilled the part of me that wonders why. Why are there so many disagreements from people genuinely seeking after Truth, not just in Christianity but in general? And with the same certainty I once had in personal experiences and beliefs, others are certain with experiences and beliefs that contradict my own. How can these disagreements be reconciled except to say God only wants some people to know Truth? But then how can you truly know that you have found it? I dont think it's possible for me to ever be sure again, but I think more and more, I am finding myself comfortable in what Dustin Kensrue of the band Thrice called "The Grey," and learning how to live with doubt in a world that demands you to be certain and so binary. It is facinating to me that people call it a relationship and yet so much of it is stories and second and third and fourthhand accounts of God. How much of God do you have to get right to be having a relationship with him? How much do you have to get right to even be "allowed" to communicate with him?

[@liamthomas2014]

I was not expecting to see a Dustin quote in the comments. What a legend

[@acangial1]

Super well thought out post. Thank you¡

[@acangial1]

Super well thought out post. Thank you!

[@andrewmays3988]

Sounds like you need to start listening to Joel Osteen to recharge your faith batteries and be filled with the HOPE that "proceeds from the Father and the Son" (Nicene Creed).😇

[@Tsurumi-yj9pt]

Do you want a God who shares your human experience? really? Should he share animals their experience as well? This is not God at all, you’re such a joke you don’t even understand the idea of god

[@SharaiLunn]

As a Christian, I really appreciate this episode and I enjoyed every second of this conversation. It was very informative. I heard that Bart Ehrman was one of the best biblical scholars and hearing him talk on this episode blew my mind! I also loved the way in which Alex hosted this interview. He asked the right questions!

[@王宏亮-x8h]

You are blind spiritually.

[@zaidzaid7455]

﴿مَا المَسيحُ ابنُ مَريَمَ إِلّا رَسولٌ قَد خَلَت مِن قَبلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدّيقَةٌ كانا يَأكُلانِ الطَّعامَ انظُر كَيفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآياتِ ثُمَّ انظُر أَنّى يُؤفَكونَ﴾ [المائدة: 75] (75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food.[277] Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. [277]- They were in need of sustenance, proving that they were creations of Allāh, not divine beings. - English Translation

[@JohnDoe-w2p5d]

J. Vernon Mcgee a southern Baptist pastor with PhD in theology could teach you way more about the Bible amd scripture that's accurate and not garbage. If anyone claims Jesus Chris is not God.. thier preaching another gospel can may as well be accursed by God.

[@zaidzaid7455]

@@JohnDoe-w2p5d ﴿مَا المَسيحُ ابنُ مَريَمَ إِلّا رَسولٌ قَد خَلَت مِن قَبلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدّيقَةٌ كانا يَأكُلانِ الطَّعامَ انظُر كَيفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآياتِ ثُمَّ انظُر أَنّى يُؤفَكونَ﴾ [المائدة: 75] (75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food.[277] Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. [277]- They were in need of sustenance, proving that they were creations of Allāh, not divine beings. - English Translation

[@zaidzaid7455]

@@JohnDoe-w2p5d ﴿وَلَقَد أَخَذَ اللَّهُ ميثاقَ بَني إِسرائيلَ وَبَعَثنا مِنهُمُ اثنَي عَشَرَ نَقيبًا وَقالَ اللَّهُ إِنّي مَعَكُم لَئِن أَقَمتُمُ الصَّلاةَ وَآتَيتُمُ الزَّكاةَ وَآمَنتُم بِرُسُلي وَعَزَّرتُموهُم وَأَقرَضتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرضًا حَسَنًا لَأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُم سَيِّئَاتِكُم وَلَأُدخِلَنَّكُم جَنّاتٍ تَجري مِن تَحتِهَا الأَنهارُ فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعدَ ذلِكَ مِنكُم فَقَد ضَلَّ سَواءَ السَّبيلِ﴾ [المائدة: 12] (12) And Allāh had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allāh said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakāh and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allāh a goodly loan,[247] I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way." [247]- By spending in the cause of Allāh, seeking His reward. - English Translation

[@GreeneyedApe]

I appreciate that Alex is trying to advocate for Christian reasoning for the sake of argument in the latter part of the interview, but I'm confused as to what is compelling about reasoning that the gospel stories are true by first assuming the gospel stories are true - begging the question. Nor do I understand the repeated suggestion that a story saying something quite unusual makes the story somehow more plausible or credible. So much time was spent on these ideas. (Maybe showing the weakness of this reasoning was exactly the point. I don't know.)

[@Sheragust]

Yeah I though he was just steel-manning but this part got weird especially the circular reasoning part lol

[@blist14ant]

Hes a historian and he has to see it from the ancients point of view .

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

18:01 I’m sorry, but what Bart says here is just flatly incorrect. Mark 14:61b-64 say this: “Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’ The high priest tore his clothes. ‘Why do we need any more witnesses?’ he asked. ‘You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?’ They all condemned him as worthy of death.” This is just about the most blatant claim to divinity that an ancient Jew could make… Claiming to be the Messiah was not blasphemous. The Sanhedrin had never condemned someone of blasphemy for claiming to be the anointed one prior or after. The Old Testament describes several people as anointed. It was claiming to be the Son of Man who rides on the clouds that was considered blasphemy. This is a direct allusion to Daniel 7, where a divine figure rides on the clouds and is given heavenly authority by the Ancient of Days. “Riding on the clouds” is a near-east motif of divinity (Deuteronomy 33:26, as well as the Baal Cycle). Bart’s supposition that Christ was condemned merely for political reasons falls apart when you look at the behavior of the Sanhedrin. He was handed over to Pilate by the Jewish authorities primarily because he claimed special divine status.

[@HkFinn83]

As the Professor said here, the words mean what they mean in their own context. They’ve all become merged into one to some modern people. Messiah means leader, son of man/son of god doesn’t mean simply ‘god’ etc.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@HkFinn83 you didn’t rebut a single thing that I wrote. The words themselves can have a variety of meanings, yes, but you and Bart are ignoring their contexts. In contexts the Son of Man who rides on the clouds is divine. There is no question.

[@crusifidy1291]

@@carsonianthegreat4672he is saying the only reason you interpret them as such is because of Johns gospel, when you isolate Marks gospel account there is no reason to suspect the words mean such things, hope this helps!!!!

[@darealkezz806]

@@crusifidy1291When you isolate Marks Gospel him claiming to be the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven doesn’t change. It aligns exactly with divine prophecy from the Old Testament. ”“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.“ ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ BART is very disingenuous for ignoring this but I guess this is why I like watching these videos to see the arguments these guys come up with to ignore the obvious.

[@asdasdwrwe32-bh3gw]

​@@crusifidy1291 They don't help, because the non-blasphemy of claiming to be the messiah is acknowledged.

[@cassieoz1702]

For a year after she died, my dad used to see my mother, from the corner of his eye, in her armchair. He himself believed that this was a mix of habit and wishful thinking. Not that she was resurrected. So a whole stack of folks claim to have seen Jesus BUT some of those, the ones that knew him best, didnt recognise him at all

[@SeekingVirtueA]

Bereavement hallucination seems the most plausible explanation if there were any visions.

[@PC-vg8vn]

but that's the point. Many people claim to have caught a glimpse of their dead love one, in a crowd, in their room etc. Yet they dont go around claiming theyve come back from the dead. So there must have been something qualitatively different from what the disciples witnessed. As a minimum, Jesus' resurrection appearances can hardly be described as 'briefly glimpsed in a crowd' or 'from the corner of his eye'.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

@@PC-vg8vn or, there is political reason to say that. Which happens with other political figures as discussed in the vidoe

[@cassieoz1702]

@PC-vg8vn and then there are all the cases where he was seen but NOT recognised, not even his voice and had to tell then who he was (??)

[@Sheragust]

@@PC-vg8vn Many people claimed that Elvis rose from the dead

[@eli7527]

I like Bart he’s very down to earth. And good challenging questions for him Alex. Great interview very informative

[@Knauchs]

@ViralChristianity there's that word people throw around. Earth? Hell? Aren't they the same really? It's semantics at this point. Hell is a Latin word that literally means, "to conceal or to cover." e.g. to bury the dead, as in the abode of the dead, i.e. where you put the bodies. Earth is sometimes referred to as an abyss or a sea, in a sense. As above so below. The waters above from the waters below. Because, either things go into the ground or in the future come out of it. Hades is a Greek word that literally means the same as the Latin, as in the state or "abode" of the dead. So, yeah earth is in a literal sense is just dirt you use to bury people with. If you ask a Jewish person about it they'll tell you yeah dead and buried, the concept of a Christian "hell" has no meaning to them. So, yeah Mr. Ehrman is very down to earth, someone is practical, realistic, and unpretentious. In your sense lol we'll all be there soon enough. You can't buy your stairway to heaven, as in a sale of indulgence; you can't “buy your way to heaven” through good deeds as an extra precaution to achieve salvation. You can't supplicate the "LORD" with prayer. And regardless of good or bad, rich or poor, young or old; all our paths come to the same end, 'the sun shines on both the just and the unjust.' And from the earth I was taken and to the earth I will return. 'All that is born, all that is created, all the elements of nature [...] All that is composed will decompose; everything returns to its roots; matter returns to the origins of matter.' Hell ain't bad place to be, to quote AC/DC. But, any day above ground is a good day lol.

[@gestapoid]

@ViralChristianity Really? Because he was saved at one point. Of course, there is no hell, unless God invented it sometime between the OT and the NT.

[@michaeljmasseri973]

He is a jerkoff Out of context ... But if he spoke in context He would be absolutely wrong

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@Knauchs Hell is not a Latin word. The Latin word is Infernum. Hell is a Germanic word that means “netherworld” or “buried.”

[@matthewcoenen6957]

Thank you both for the informative content. I think this was an excellent interview/conversation. Alex had some great questions and respectfully challenged some of Dr. Ehrman's positions, but made sure to give Bart time to speak and thoroughly explain why he holds the views that he does. Keep up the great work!

[@Wretched2JZ]

Agree

[@MossyMozart]

@matthewcoenen6957 - I think he is sometimes taking a 'devil's advocate' position.

[@endtimeslips4660]

Liberal = Trash people Drugs = OK Single parents = OK Prostitution and abortion = OK but when the social life start reflecting the consequence for that choice like Theft, car jacking, Robbery, Street Violence, HIV, drugs, Drunker. This prick blame Christianity, they blame Judaism. hahahahahaha. no wonder hell is real. place for the P R I C K/

[@lukewaidmann3678]

agreed

[@theredeemeriam]

Let me explain this out to the jews, christians, and muslims so that all of you have clarity and understand. Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is the very first human soul to exist. This is why the christians overcompensate Jesus and why the muslims undercompensate whom jesus truly is. Does this mean jesus is any less important or meaningless? This is a question only you can answer, for that answer lies within each and every one of you. He was not born of a virgin birth. He is of the line of judah. In fact, if you wish to know something of interest about your savior, let me explain how he returns. He returns the same as he did the first time, a man no different from you. He was born a pauper, a bastard son of a roman soldier. Yes, the jews are correct. This is who your king is. Once again, the jews will call his mother a prostitute for bearing three sons from three different fathers. The only thing is one of these fathers is a Roman soldier, of the line of judah. So yes, the jews are correct, and yet incorrect. Hopefully, this brings some clarity to all. Happy New years everyone, and buckle up because things are about to get interesting!

[@thesolarengineer]

Very disappointed that Bart didn't storm out in huff, complaining that Alex is obsessed with the question of Jesus' divinity!😂❤🎉

[@MatejHajnal]

"Alex seems to be obsessed with a lot of things", like drugs, for instance, go and watch when somebody actually did storm out :D

[@stupidrules1000]

just because he wrote a book about it doesnt mean he wants to be bored by talking about it.

[@Knukles_Photography]

​@stupidrules1000 then why write a book about something that doesn't even need to be talked about for 5 minutes because that'd be too long? If he truly felt that way he wouldn't have written a book about it.

[@george5120]

This is one of Ehrman's best podcasts. Much credit is owed to Alex O'Conner, too, for facilitating the discussion better than most podcast hosts are capable of. Alex has a knack for steering the discussion by saying the right thing at the right time. I have never listened to Alex, before. But I am subscribing to his KZbin channel since he is such an effective podcast host. Alex is as good of interviewer as Larry King was.

[@endtimeslips4660]

Alex is a typical unresponsible being in America. if someone want be a drug addict he approve single parent OK OK OK. LOL like a Democrat. but if a thing start affecting his life theft car jacking robbery street violence. he BLAME THE JEWS, BLAME CHRISTIAN. trash liberal all the same bastard people. talk nonsense but NOT want take responsible.

[@MattHabermehl]

I didn't watch a lot of Larry King but given that he didn't know what he was talking about most of the time (famously didn't do any research on the guests), that seems like an unnecessarily low bar.

[@endtimeslips4660]

@@MattHabermehl he so deep like the sea. but unfortunately that sea will be no more LOL Revelation 21:1 All Things Made New Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. satan will lose GOD will in triumph Halelujah! Woke liberal at the brink their last gasp

[@george5120]

@@MattHabermehl Larry King was among the most awarded, recognized, longest running, successful interviewers of all time. This is true regardless of personal opinions, including yours.

[@ThreePersonsInOne]

Even the host in this video knows more than Bart about the deity of Jesus. Listening Bart is a waste of time and money. He leads people in a cult of Satanic fractures. Because according to the Bible if you are believing first Jesus is God, then you are seeing it while getting equipped for it. If you choose not to believe first, God never force you the equipment and the Bible through down your throat. You have free will, and very beginning if you are not willing to believe, then you will keep getting same result and you just keep banging your head to a death end’s wall. There’s no way out.

[@boblyle8121]

Great back and forth conversation. One of the best interviews with Dr. Ehrman! Good work Alex!

[@moestv8011]

Are you christian? May i ask you if jesus is God or just a prophet ( Q from a muslim, no intention for hate )

[@donhue4546]

@@moestv8011 ONLY GOD CAN DO GODS WORK,THATS WHY GOD CAME AS JESUS,AND WAS BORN FROM A VIRGIN,WE ALL KNOW ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A VIRGIN TO HAVE A CHILD,THIS WAS THE MIRACLE,JESUS WAS BORN FROM NOTHING NO FATHER,NO SEXUALL RELATION,NO DNA,AND JESUS NEVER HAD A MOTHER,MARY WAS JUST A VESSEL,AS GOD DOES NOT HAVE PARENTS,JESUS ALL READY EXISTED B4 MARY,JESUS IS GOD,THINK ABOUT IT,HOW CAN MARY BE THE MOTHER OF GOD,SHE HAD NO ONE TO FERTALISE HER EGGS,IT WAS A MIRACLE BIRTH...

[@monkeyboy51]

Impressive. Very nice. Let's see Paul Allen saying no.

[@johncalabria1607]

😂❤

[@BLVGamingY]

His timbre tone... It's perfect. The subtle voice cracking...

[@zapkvr0101]

​@@BLVGamingYtimber and timbre are different words. For Christ's sake

[@zapkvr0101]

The,guy who owns Microsoft

[@DumbAsh00]

@@danielduvana American psycho

[@MagisterHamid]

I’ve never seen anyone dismantle the foundation of Christian core doctrines in a more eloquent way like Bart Ehrman does in this video. He picks it apart piece by piece.

[@cassandraseven3478]

Rome did a better job.

[@worldnotworld]

And fails utterly.

[@MagisterHamid]

@@worldnotworld he did an excellent job.

[@cassandraseven3478]

@@MagisterHamid Just as any 11-year-old would do.

[@matswessling6600]

@@cassandraseven3478Your arguments are really, really sharp...

[@ScoobyFermentation]

I've watched a lot of Bart Ehrman interviews and podcasts and I think the interviewer in this instance is one of the best. Pointed and thoughtful questions and able to keep up with Bart's intellect.

[@izzytoons]

I agree. One exception was the discussion of the group(s) of witnesses who saw Jesus after he died. Bart gave his answers. First, he quesitoned the empty tomb, since crucified criminals at that time were generally left for dead on the cross, food for scavengers. (Also, Jesus simply was not of the right class to be buried in a tomb.) Second, he noted that we do not have the accounts of these witnesses. We have the account of someone who didn't know these witnesses, who lived far away, and who used a different language. There are problems with all those things when assessing the reliability of a historical record. That was Bart's response, essentially. Well, Alex kept repeating his question, particularly on the second point. He really wanted to know how Bart could deny the resurrection if groups of people saw him. All Bart could do is explain, once again, calmly, that we do not have eyewitness accounts. We have the account of someone relaying hearsay, hearsay generated during the aftermath of an event occuring long ago, faraway, by people who spoke another language. End of story. THE CLAIM OF A RESURRECTION RESTS ENTIRELY ON HEARSAY. Which, frankly, is the bedrock of most of the Bible and Judaism and Chrisitanity in general. Hearsay.

[@madam1madam121]

Bart is an anti Christ I read the comments And I do Not want to hear further. If He died He will go to Hell. Too bad too late for Him He is sure a Proud person. The down fall of a person Is his pride same as the down fall For Angel Lucifer. Old and Not wise. Also Will Jesus deciples died for lies ? Will you died for lies ??? Jesus is the Son of God He is the way, the truth No one comes to the Father Except through Him. The risen Lord Jesus is seated at The Right hand of the Father And will judge the living and the dead. Laugh now when you still can. I got was sick and cannot get up from my bed. Daily I prayed to Jesus Christ and was heal without surgery. Even the Doctor have No answer For my healing. There is a God. And Jesus is my healer.

[@combinedeffects4799]

Could it be you like Bart because you don’t want to believe in God ?

[@blootooth00]

​@izzytoons if it helps, Alex isn't repeating those questions because he himself believes Jesus was resurrected. His usual interview style is to play devils advocate, or more accurately the theists advocate. So he's parroting arguments people like William Lane Craig make to substantiate the Bible, and allowing Bart to refute those arguments at each available angle. It did get a bit repetitive though, I agree.

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

.Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@SeekingTruth2023]

Dear Alex, I follow you on YT for quite a time. And I learned SO MUCH!!! from you. It changed my life, tbh. And I highly highly respect Dr. Ehrman. I've read almost all of his books, and they changed my life too. Through both of you I began to learn about critical thinking. So here, the two wonderful people who inspired me the most, are discussing. So great! Best wishes and a giant thank you from Germany!

[@mrbungle2627]

You should read this VERY short publication “Misquoting Gieschen Originally published in Concordia Theological Quarterly” It is of a scholar that Dr. Ehrman cited 3 times to support a radical viewpoint. The scholar believes that Dr. Ehrman might have deliberately misappropriated his studies and quotations. There are many more like this. These aren’t scholars of equal caliber, these are scholars that Dr. Ehrman relies upon to make his points. If you want more I will provide more.

[@SeekingTruth2023]

@@mrbungle2627 thank you for that advice. I will try to inform myself. And yes, I would be grateful for more.

[@adrianseanheidmann4559]

@@mrbungle2627 I have no idea what on earth, hell and heaven there is that Dr. Ehrman would have to rely on to bring forward a "radicale" viewpoint of anything.

[@mrbungle2627]

@@adrianseanheidmann4559 I don’t think you’re aware that scholars constantly cite other scholars to support their positions. But considering most KZbin sycophants guzzle cum without even considering how the academic world works, I’m not surprised.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

To say that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the three persons are three separate "beings" is an astonishing rookie error for a scholar of Ehrman's fame. Any Catholic who goes to mass on Sundays, weekly recites in the Creed (formulated in Nicaea ad 325, and tweaked in Constantinople ad 381): "I believe in One Lord Jesus Christ (...) *One in being with the Father* ...." I also had a high regard for Bart Ehrman, but this interview was highly disappointing, not only for the above mentioned reason, but also because of his rabid skepticism that comes across as very much ad hoc. For example, he affirms that Jesus was condemned to death by Pilates for calling himself the King of the Jews, which he can only know from the Gospels he much distrusts when they say that he had previously condemned to death by the Sanhedrin for calling himself God. Seems very convenient to pick and choose _from the same source_ whatever best fits his narrative.

[@ZombieDragQueen]

I'm not 100% sure of what I did last week, let alone 20 years ago. Comparing shared experiences of the past with my family members there's always disagreements on details, behavior, chronology. Sometimes I remember things wrong or post-rationalise past actions to analyse and/or explain my present self even if back then perhaps it didn't play a big role or meant anything even taking into account that it may have meant and played a different role I remember today because I never shared what I felt with anyone or that I felt anything at all. So even if it's first hand testimony/account I'm taking it with a grain of salt.

[@TorianTammas]

We have fan fiction stories about an Aramaic speaking dead jewish preacher. The fan fiction is produced by koine greek speakers decades later that promoted a heathen dead human turned a god with some Jewish elements.

[@RodrigoCastroCh]

I recently attended my 20 year high school reunion and it was a great example of this because all of a sudden you have people correcting or adding to the memories you’ve had for all this time.

[@ZombieDragQueen]

@@RodrigoCastroCh same thing will happen to say, Scientology, as it did to Christianity. A hundred years from now scientological gospels will get popular citing first hand accounts of old people who witnessed Tom Cruise on the filming set of "Mission Impossible 20+" doing all his stunts at age 93. Clearly he was blessed by Xenu (or whatever) and it wasn't just a realistic cyborg AI and CGI or lookalike. And those witnesses knew it was the real flesh and bones Tom because they were doing the catering during the production and while setting up for lunch Tom just showed up out of nowhere, took a fistful of mixed nuts from a bowl and told them with a big smile on his face: "I love what you're doing here. Nuts. Great protein source. Good for the muscles. Healthy living. I love your food." And then he shouted a few WOOOOs and YEEAAAAHs on his way to his private trailer.

[@bubbag8895]

If one believes in a God, and that gods interact with humans, I can't think of a better more comprehensive explanation of a worldview that humans have devised for understanding things, than the Bible

[@Imjustsayin99]

But… you positively know the origin of life or what happened with the dinosaurs supposedly 65 million years ago without anyone being there. People certainly make up narratives and science does the same. Believe what you want.

[@khgdlqgsds4528]

The quran says in chapter 5 about jesus: 5:116: "And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, "Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?"' He will say, 'Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.'" 5:117: "I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness."

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 11:13 - For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

[@Sarmitin]

Have you read the Quran completely?

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Exodus 20:3 - Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

[@aligoogle7532]

It's soo disappointing the Quran wasn't mentioned in the discussion

[@humhumhum-jo3wx]

​@@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOTit Was "given" to him? -by who?

[@MrYelly]

I simply adore doctor Ehrman, he is so polite when he cuts through the shite

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

To say that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the three persons are three separate "beings" is an astonishing rookie error for a scholar of Ehrman's fame. Any Catholic who goes to mass on Sundays, weekly recites in the Creed (formulated in Nicaea ad 325, and tweaked in Constantinople ad 381): "I believe in One Lord Jesus Christ (...) *One in being with the Father* ...." I also had a high regard for Bart Ehrman, but this interview was highly disappointing, not only for the above mentioned reason, but also because of his rabid skepticism that comes across as very much ad hoc. For example, he affirms that Jesus was condemned to death by Pilates for calling himself the King of the Jews, which he can only know from the Gospels he much distrusts when they say that he had previously condemned to death by the Sanhedrin for calling himself God. Seems very convenient to pick and choose _from the same source_ whatever best fits his narrative.

[@jwdomes]

Well put @xaviervelascosuarez. The more I listen to Dr. Ehrman, the more it seems like he just doesn't want the Christian narrative to be true. That's his prerogative of course, but let's call a spade a spade.

[@noahlee3476]

Ok for the Trinity thing, he was explaining the different viewpoints early Christians had on the relationships between the father, son, and Holy Spirit and how there can there be 3 in one. The view that each person is a separate being was rejected as a heresy as he said in the interview and the Trinitarian model with the Son being of the same substance as the father and Holy Spirit won out. He himself is not saying the trinity has three separate beings or that that’s what the Bible teaches… only that is a debate that happened after the writing of the New Testament. As for Jesus’s trial, both can be true. The Sanhedrin wanted him to be put to death because he claimed he was God, but he was ultimately executed for secular/political reasons under Pontius Pilate. Pilate didn’t ask “are you the Son of God” and then put him to death. He asked him “are you the king of the Jews”. That’s a political statement, not a theological one, and Jesus was not on trial before Pilate for a theological claim. Bart’s view is that some parts of the Gospels are historically reliable and some aren’t. That’s an internally consistent view because he gives reasons for why he thinks some parts are more reliable than others. He’s not ignoring the Sanhedrin trial, his point is, that the Jew’s theological problem with Jesus was not the ultimate reason why Pilate sentenced him to death. He’s not ignoring one part of the gospel.

[@williamhutton2126]

Ehrman is an over educated imbecile. All he proves is that intelligence and education are not inextricable. It is true that Jesus never said the exact words, “I am God.” He did, however, make the claim to be God in many different ways, and those who heard Him knew exactly what He was saying. For example, in John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews who heard Him make that statement knew well that He was claiming to be God, as witnessed by their reaction: “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). When He asked them why they were attempting to stone Him, they said, “For blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), and the Jews plainly accused Jesus of claiming to be God. Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when he said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. On this occasion, too, they tried to stone Him for blasphemy. He didn't say the precise words but he did, unequivocally, make the claim.

[@SpaceLordof75]

@@xaviervelascosuarezIf you had listened for just 10 more seconds, you would have caught Ehrman’s explanation. That’s too bad.

[@wellingboroughredburn-yd9yk]

The point about Jesus saying your sins are forgiven and giving his disciples the authority to forgive sins was something I had never considered in that way.

[@smalltimer4370]

Most of the people believing Jesus is/was GOD are not aware of such facts. That said, Jesus being the literal son of GOD does not take away from the importance of His role; _...you will die in your sins; _*_for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"_* - John 8.24 The He of course, being the prophesied Messiah and Son of GOD sent to earth to redeem us

[@izzytoons]

@@smalltimer4370 Ehrman specifically set John aside. Remember, John ignored most of the Jesus stories and focused on symbols. He also came later, after many of the stories had percolated longer. John definitely had a different agenda. He was there to elevate Jesus to Godhood.

[@smalltimer4370]

@@izzytoons Having read no such thing in John, leads me to believe you have no idea what you are talking about - ie, godhood is not a term or even a defined position in scripture - YHWH's absolute nature is never presented as attainable, or even shared for that matter, in-that there is no such concept presented anywhere in scripture. If anything, the scriptures state the opposite, in that everything about GOD, is absolute and unique to Him alone.

[@ThreePersonsInOne]

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14), and we know that God is omniscient. So it seems strange that Jesus would say that He did not know when He would return. When the Son of God became a man, He remained fully God, but He also took on a true human nature. Jesus retained all the attributes of divinity, yet, as a man, He voluntarily restricted their use. This was part of the “self-emptying” or self-renunciation spoken of in Philippians 2:6-8. When Christ entered our world, He laid aside the privileges that had been His in heaven. Rather than stay on His throne in heaven, Jesus “made himself nothing” (as the NIV translates Philippians 2:7). When He came to earth, “he gave up his divine privileges” (NLT). He veiled His glory, and He chose to occupy the position of a servant.

[@Truth-a_hard_pill]

​@@ThreePersonsInOne It's quite interesting that NONE of what you believe about Jesus comes from the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible. If I were in your position, I'd think very seriously and honestly about this matter. No wonder you couldn't quote Jesus to back up your belief about Jesus. In fact, your belief about Jesus is the exact opposite of what Jesus preached and practiced.

[@skepticninja520]

I really enjoy Bart Ehrman but I'd like to add a little bit to the discussion. The reason the gospels exhonerate Pilate is because Pilate represents Rome and the Christians want to show the Romans that they don't blame them, they blame the priestly heirarchy of the Jews for their Messiah's death.. They didn't want to become an anti-Rome cult in Rome's eyes. You can also see this in 'The Epistle of Paul to the Romans' in which you find verses that say that you must not oppose your leader because he was selected by Jehovah. Not something you see in any of his other letters. Another possible reason for the strange story of the godly impregnation of Mary is that Jesus is named 'the son of god' in many passages and the term 'son of god' is a common colloquialism for a king or messiah of Israel (Psalms 2) - see both David and Soloman. This went from a colloquialism to literal as the pagans tried to understand the whole 'son of god' thing.

[@Neon_White]

You dont think that maybe the Bible exonerates Rome because it was created by Rome?

[@petrosnemardos]

@@Neon_White It was written by Jews last time I looked.

[@jorgen7180]

Tell me you have never read the Bible nor Christian History without telling me that.

[@jorgen7180]

​@@petrosnemardos Yes, they threw Christians to the lions while they were writing the Bible. Genius, really

[@JasbirSingh-mh9mg]

🎉w

[@leonidesrivera9812]

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.”

[@lastyhopper2792]

Thus born the toxic socio-culutre of the Mormon church

[@abbacab77]

"Gooble Gobbel one of us!"

[@cfhollister8766]

I have to say that watching this through now is my second attempt at getting through it. I've been a reader of Bart for several years and, having learned his mind on many of these issue, when trying to watch this video before thought the conversation was overly contentious... another interview by someone who didn't really grasp his views. Since then I've familiarized myself with Alex's views and style and have discovered that I was quite wrong. I find this conversation invigorating and honest, two intelligent people taking each other to task, each from their own perspective, but not in a contentious way. Great work by both parties, each who are bringing with them their own audience who agree with each other on many key points, but have as rigorous conversation that highlights the nuances that different perspectives bring.

[@josipag2185]

One day I will find the words and they will be simple J.Kerouac

[@torlarson7960]

Why do we care if this man lived? Made up life lessons. Humans figure out how to live without a God

[@kaiuwe7991]

Alex, have you ever considered writing a book about religion? I'd buy it.

[@Ambermarie13]

I'd love that!!!

[@dakotacarpenter7702]

Read Ehrman's "Jesus." I think that book fully debunks modern Christianity. Jesus was a doomsday prophet, like John before him and Paul after him. He expected the apocalypse to come during his generation, and when I didn't, writers began rewriting the narrative to say that the resurrection was metaphorical.

[@أفلاكالأفكار]

Alex's arguments are basically that of a high school atheist. But unfortunately so very few people today read or even think deeply and are thus amazed by really basic and low-level arguments.

[@ednotted9675]

​@user-ls8ks7kv8c can you give us an example of such an argument?

[@annec988]

@@أفلاكالأفكار Agree. At first when I started listening to him interview others I thought he was quite a serious, considered guy, but then when I watched more of his videos I thought the same thing.

[@henpines]

This is gold man! thank you so much both of you!

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

30:30 Alex, just so you are aware, that isn’t quite an accurate depiction of Trinitarianism. Trinitarianism does say that if you see the Son you see the Father, because all energies of the Son are energies of the Father. This is outlined in the Athanasian Creed. Properly understood, the verse gives no problems for Trinitarianism as defined in traditional Christianity

[@Larry30102]

One of the best interviews of Bart! Thanks to Alex for being a great interviewer, and Bart for sharing from his awesome knowledge base.

[@zaidzaid7455]

﴿مَا المَسيحُ ابنُ مَريَمَ إِلّا رَسولٌ قَد خَلَت مِن قَبلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدّيقَةٌ كانا يَأكُلانِ الطَّعامَ انظُر كَيفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآياتِ ثُمَّ انظُر أَنّى يُؤفَكونَ﴾ [المائدة: 75] (75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food.[277] Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. [277]- They were in need of sustenance, proving that they were creations of Allāh, not divine beings. - English Translation

[@afsar_gunner5271]

Both Bart Ehrman and Alex have nothing better to do so they create these utube rubbish for views/money ! who even cares if you do believe or don't believe in God !! Because billions do believe and have faith in God ! Stop disrespecting and mocking religious people - CLOWNS 🤡

[@john.premose]

I like Ehrman but Alex is a smug .....

[@dani4157]

​@@john.premosehe's 24 let him go

[@judyswiderski2682]

@@zaidzaid7455 Prophecy that stated Jesus is man and God. Isaiah 49:, "Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people from far; The LORD hath called me frim the womb; frim the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." [Written around 700 years befor the birth of the Christ Messiah]. "Behold the days come, saith thr Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:5-6. Jeremiah in 626 to 586 BC. "Awake, O sword against my shepherd and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord, smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand upon the little ones." Zeckariah 13:7. Matthew 26:31. Zechariah was written in 520-518 BC. [Before Christ] PS In order to arrive at the truth you mudt stoobreadung lying bibles. They are blasphemous words of men. Written for financial gain and to bring doubt to God's word. The POWER is in God's word. Hebrews 4:12.

[@Bingbangboompowwham]

Hearing this interview right after having listened to your recent interview with Peter Hitchens, I can’t help but notice a difference between how two guests respond differently to your inquiries/pushback. I recall that your channel has focused on Peter Hitchens at least twice, the first time being his theological debate. And I recall that, during that debate, he opened by stating his doubt that the opposing speakers were taking the topic seriously. So naturally I immediately noticed when, during your interview with him, he quipped at the very start, “so far, so good”, as if he expected to be disappointed by your viewpoints.

[@janetwalmsley-heron]

Scholars are not necessarily Christians who Know Jesus and are not Spiritual but all Brain and no Spiritual and the only Message your Guest has right is Love One Another and Giving the Message of GOD IS FROM GOD AND NOT HUMAN THINKING GOD IS GOD AND NOT HUMAN JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND HE TALKS OF GOD AS HIS FATHER!! WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION? WHY BOTHER TALKING WHEN NEITHER OF YOU BELIEVE JUST A WASTE OF BREATH AND TIME and Energy Faith is not just about here and now but Eternity no one can or should change what Jesus said!! It is God's Word He is Teaching what His Father taught Him😅😢

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@hahahatall09]

Omg the beef between Bart Ehrman and William Lane Craig is PALPABLE. Would love to see them debate today!

[@jwatson181]

It would be a destruction again.

[@RashidMBey]

One is a scholar, the other an apologist. It wouldn't feel like an ideological debate since Bart Ehrman would correct WLC when his perspective contradicts or fails to comport with the data and would likely nod "okay 👍🏽" to all else.

[@jwatson181]

@@RashidMBey Bart is a textual critic. Don't get it twisted. Wlc has published way more philosophical and historical papers. I understand your bias but don't look foolish making easily debunked claims.

[@Agryphos]

​@@jwatson181 that is incorrect. Bart has more formal training in historical practices than textual criticism. WLC depends on strawmanning and misrepresentation to portray Ehrman as being unaware of historical methods

[@jwatson181]

@Agryphos my friend. This is established fact. Bart makes insane claimed in popular literature and interviews that he walks back in his academic papers. Are you claiming the majority of Barts experience is not textual criticism? Where did he publish philosophical models for historical epistemology? Lol don't make things up

[@davidkatz341]

One of the most egregious mistranslation s of Isaiah 53 is how the servant suffered FOR our iniquities. That's not what the Hebrew says. It says the suffering servant suffered FROM their iniquities. The error is identifying the speaker in these passages. See the end of Isaiah 52. The kings of the nations of the earth are speaking. Israel suffered from the sins of the nations. That is why even learning some very basic Hebrew, tense, pronouns and prefix structure changes the entire understanding. Great show guys!

[@sebolddaniel]

So, the New Testament is all based on an early Christian misinterpreation of Isaiah 53. I stopped believing in this stuff when I read Azimov at age 13.

[@davidkatz341]

@@sebolddaniel I don't believe that at all. But I believe that the Christian exegesis is incorrect because it's just a scandalous mistranslation. Is a difference in meaning when you put a lamed before a word or a mem. Plus these are artificial chapter breaks. So who is speaking in the first part of Isaiah 53? It is the kings of the nations. Once you understand that the entirety of the verse becomes clear. The other critical issue is that Christians claim that the suffering servant is and can only be Jesus. That is just patently false. Beginning from believe it was chapter 41 as you progress towards 53 there are eight or 10 times when the text explicitly tells you who the servant is. It's Israel. Christians got the concept of a Messiah completely wrong very early on. The Messiah is a regular person, is a part of the remnant of Israel and is no different from any other descendant of the davidic line other than the fact that he will be righteous and obedient and share the knowledge of God. Isaiah is very tough reading though and it is open to a lot of misuse. By the way, I love reading Azimov as well but here I am many decades later believing again. Have a wonderful day!

[@NATANOJ1]

@@davidkatz341 you freak jew, the bible wasn't written in hebrew you dumb boy

[@NATANOJ1]

jesus wasn't speaking hebrew you sick jew

[@NATANOJ1]

@@davidkatz341 hey you jew, the bible wasn't written in hebrew, also jesus didn't speak hebrew, what are you talking about jew.

[@newtonianromance]

Beautiful, respectful conversation and very interesting. As an atheist/agnostic I very much enjoy this kind of conversation. You dont have to come to the same conclusion to enjoy speaking and having fun with someone on a topic.

[@minecraftman955]

@daniele.3361please explain

[@MrShaapey]

@daniele.3361 like?

[@cezarjipa72]

Of course there are. In the Bible.@daniele.3361

[@estrellayam4287]

Jesus asked a lot of questions. Query was one of His favorite teaching tools. One of the questions Jesus put to the disciples was “Who do you say that I am?” (Luke 9:20). This question drew out a response that is instructive to all of us. The context of Jesus’ question “Who do you say that I am?” is important: “Once when Jesus was praying in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, ‘Who do the crowds say I am?’ “They replied, ‘Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.’ “‘But what about you?’ he asked. ‘Who do you say I am?’ “Peter answered, ‘God’s Messiah’” (Luke 9:18-20). Parallel accounts are found in Matthew 16 and Mark 8. Matthew relates that Peter did more than just identify Jesus as the Christ; he also proclaimed Jesus’ divine nature: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16). Jesus’ question “Who do you say I am?” was not a sign of ignorance; He knew all things, including what was on the disciples’ minds. The question was also not motivated by some type of self-conceit or vanity; Jesus did not preen, and He had no desire to fish for compliments. Rather, His question was aimed at provoking the disciples to consider their level of faith. The immediate results of His question make it clear why He asked them what He did. Jesus began the conversation by asking a related question: “Who do the crowds say I am?” (Luke 9:18). In response, the disciples related the various things they had heard: the opinions included several personages come back to life, pointing to the fact that the crowds viewed Jesus as someone special. But the crowds’ guesses were all wrong. So Jesus directs the question to the disciples themselves: “Who do you say that I am?” In other words, are you following the crowd? Are you sticking with the conventional wisdom about Me? Or do you have another, more insightful answer? What do you really think? Peter then speaks up. In answer to the question, Peter affirms his belief that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah and, more than that, the Son of God. By this time, the disciples had seen many miracles, including the raising of a widow’s son in Nain, the calming of a storm, the casting out of many demons from a man in the Gerasenes, and the feeding of 5,000. The disciples knew that Jesus was more than a prophet; He was absolutely unique; He was, in fact, God in the flesh. In response to Peter’s declaration, Jesus expresses the blessedness of his faith: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). God, in His grace, had opened the disciples’ eyes to see Jesus for who He truly was. So Jesus asks the question “Who do you say that I am?” and He receives the correct (divinely inspired) response from Peter. This marks a turning point in Jesus’ teaching ministry with His disciples. Starting then, the Lord gives His disciples additional information, as shocking as it was for them to hear: “From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21). Jesus had refrained from telling His disciples about His death and resurrection until they had reached an important milestone: namely, that their faith had grown to the extent that they could express their conviction that Jesus was the Son of God. How the disciples handled the additional information of Jesus’ death would depend on who they believed Jesus to be. Knowing that He is the Son of God, they should be able to trust Him-even to the point of accepting His death (and resurrection) without being shaken. Unfortunately, the disciples had a hard time processing what Jesus was now telling them, as evidenced in Peter’s response (Matthew 16:22-23). Even having faith in Jesus as the divine Son of God, the disciples were thrown into confusion at the prediction of Jesus’ death and resurrection (see Mark 9:32). Jesus’ question “Who do you say that I am?” is a good example of one of His teaching methods. Asking a question demands engagement, promotes thinking, and draws out a considered response. Jesus’ question and subsequent teaching also illustrate the progressive nature of God’s revelation and our need for growing in faith. Throughout history, God has revealed His message gradually, starting in Genesis and continuing through the close of the canon. He did not reveal any more than mankind needed or was capable of receiving at any given time. Also, Jesus’ delay in introducing the subject of His death and resurrection suggests that the disciples’ faith needed to mature to the point that they could hear and understand. All of us are called to grow in our faith. There is always more to know of Christ. “Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity” (Hebrews 6:1). There is your answer God and son and Holy Spirit are one

[@jayeee2756]

None of this is verbatim. It's all story telling, decades or centuries later. Lovely as it may be.

[@georgeflowers3730]

One of the best conversations with Dr. Ehrman, I have watched. Great work, Alex! I recommend all of Dr. Ehrman's books to everybody; you should read them. I even have his university textbook "The Bible: A Historical and Literary Introduction" His last book "Armageddon" is excellent, and it explains many of our current problems with Christian fundamentalists. I only have a comment on what Dr. Ehrman says at the end, which is how Scholars, Academics, and Scientists think about people in general. They believe people are basically good and then don't have ill intentions. Our reality is that there are a lot of people with various degrees of sociopathy in the world, and many of them are drawn to positions of power, political and religious. This is true now and more so in the first century CE. They have no problem with lying. Of course, I can't say everybody is lying, but there is a good probability that somebody is.

[@beastshawnee]

Having grown up around a covert narcissist psychopath father who basically ran a small morphing spiritual cult-like group-yeah. exactly. He taught love and acceptance and all feel good cleansing spirituality YET was the most violently abusive controlling person to his kids. I think I’m the only person who ever realized and saw the whole psychopathy of my Dad. My mom was snowed by his personality. He didn’t abuse her and she was ok to not protect us. Sometimes she triggered him purposefully to get us to not “bother” her. He tried to actually murder me multiple times. His eyes went dark like a psycho-killer! I don’t trust anyone much -especially around religion. I know a few are sincere but most at the top are NOT! We like to assume people are kind and well meaning if WE ARE! But it is NOT true. People lie and manipulate as easy as they breathe.

[@gamegod733]

Makes way more sense that when jesus says youve seen me youve seen god hes talking about how we are all god . We all have it inside us . Same with the three words jesus whispered to thomas in which he said he would get stoned for saying it He told him "you are god" Everything makes way more sense when you look at it spiritually and not some divine word of god

[@donadams7943]

I am currently watching a 12 hour video course on "The Historical Jesus" given by Dr. Ehrman. It is wonderful.

[@kylecampbell1532]

@fanabudrogh9241 If this has helped anyone believe in the trinity, then they must be retarded

[@kcc-karenschroniccorner9432]

Have you checked out the work by Richard Carrier on this topic? It’s excellent and well researched.

[@dboulos7]

As a Christian, I found this interview to be extremely beneficial as far as taking note of certain facts, details, opinions and perceptions of certain stories in the Bible. In large, I don't agree with the majority of Dr. Ehrman's conclusions, but I appreciate his knowledge when it comes to the facts themselves. Alex was extremely poised, articulate and astute in questioning the issues at hand. In short, typically, I watch Bart Ehrman's videos to gain knowledge about the Bible, so that I'm more accurate and precise when using proof text to defend my Christian beliefs.

[@adrianseanheidmann4559]

"I don't agree with the majority of Dr. Ehrman's conclusions" Which ones for example?

[@dboulos7]

The ones that lead to his assertion that the Scripture are unreliable @@adrianseanheidmann4559

[@lilyoyo77]

That jesus is not god

[@ian2armannduccio]

"proof". Interesting proposition, when we're usually talking about "faith".

[@endtimeslips4660]

@@lilyoyo77 have an eye but blind yet claim to be all knowing and all wisdom pffftt. Matthew 12: 1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!” 8 For the Son of Man is Lord [b]even of the Sabbath.” 14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him. LOL denied this verse and that mean you are a old fart HAHAHA Jesus not claim to be GOD then what is this in the verse 8? κύριος kyrios HAHAHAHAHAHA isn't that the greek mean Jesus is GOD? P R I C K A T H E I S T I S L I K E S T U P I D M U H A M M A D A N

[@jimmygravitt1048]

I just want to point out that a close family member, whom I love dearly, lost her husband of several decades some years back. Now, she posts pictures of animals that visit the house claiming it's him. Why is so hard to believe something like this went on with early church leaders.

[@TorianTammas]

You hit the nail on the head. We have people who ruined their lives leaving duties, jobs, family, and friends to follow a false messiah and dead preacher. They could either face reality and pick up the shards of life or they remain in the delusion that an executed criminal isn't really dead. Mourning is a complicated process and a lot of people choose delusion or are caught in delusion over reality.

[@jimmygravitt1048]

@@TorianTammas I agree. I have another family member who has lost two significant others, and they turned to God. They want to believe that they will see their loved ones again. Honestly, it's hard for me to want to take that away from them. If it gives them comfort, I see no need to change their minds. It's when their beliefs start to infringe on other people's rights, like forcing all women to carry all pregnancies to term. Or forcing non-Christian kids to feel alienated by having sanctioned prayers. Or when they decide that school "chaplains" should be a thing. I use quotes because when Texas passed this law, the law did not (still does not) require any of the education that chaplains traditionally have (graduate degrees: Masters or PhDs) or the certification that they receive (professional organizations related to their chosen faith), nor did it ban these school "chaplains" from proselytizing, something that all chaplains are taught is a no-no. Chaplains are supposed to assist their subjects in their subjects' chosen religion, NOT the chaplain's chosen faith. This means chaplains in the Army assist atheist soldiers all the time. And, Jewish chaplains assist and advocate for Muslims in their organization to ensure the food they receive is halal. But with these school "chaplains", it is basically ANYONE who can pass a background check. So, what you'll get are ignorant laypeople who are enthusiastic about religion and molding the minds of the young. What could go wrong? When they start doing things that negatively impact my life, THAT is when I have to say something. Otherwise, comforting delusions can be harmless.

[@TorianTammas]

@@jimmygravitt1048 Yes people are harmless when they see Elvis after his death, but in. connection to sone cult worldviwew it can become dangerous.

[@NB-lv8oq]

@@TorianTammas Who are you calling a criminal?

[@TorianTammas]

@@NB-lv8oq The romans executed three criminals for rebellion against Rome. Crucification was used by the Romand for rebellious slaves and rebels against Roman rule. The claim to be king or Messiah without Roman consent was a crimimal act and punished by crucification. Reality is something one is not used to when one grows up with fan fiction stories produced to market a dead preacher.

[@mnfowler1]

Not mentioned is John the Baptist and Jesus' relationship to him and in particular to his teaching. All four canonical gospels say very similar things about John the Baptist (although in all but one case, the contexts are different), and Jesus' first message that the Kingdom of God is near and that people must repent is almost identical to the Baptist's message. Clearly, early Christians were in considerable agreement about the importance of the Baptist and considered his ministry foundational, although they considered him to be eclipsed by Jesus. What is most curious is that the Baptist never says that Jesus is the Messiah, only that someone is coming who is greater than himself, and where he might be saying that Jesus is the one, the Baptist is not explicit that he is the Messiah. In one instance, he is said to have sent his own disciples to ask Jesus to reveal his identity. "Are you Elijah?" No, Jesus is said to have replied. And he tells his own disciples that the Baptist is Elijah. How did the Baptist become confused about this question? Did he think Jesus was the Messiah and then doubt this? No. More likely, the Baptist thought that Jesus was or might be an Elijah-like figure, arriving before the Messiah. This is what Albert Schweitzer thought was the case. Far from being the first Christian, the Baptist was simply a forerunner of Jesus. (And possibly Jesus' teacher.)

[@The_Rizz_Lord_]

WHAT???

[@gailism]

Thank you for asking challenging questions even to guests with whom you mostly agree. Makes for a much deeper conversation.

[@EnglishMike]

He's actually more comfortable challenging people like Ehrman with whom he agrees than he is with Christians who take the opposite viewpoint to his. He's tended to bend over backwards a little too much in those interview, probably for fear of offending them. I think with more maturity and experience he'll get better at the more adversarial interviews. Striking a balance between challenging a viewpoint and not upsetting your guest is not always easy.

[@MrYelly]

@@EnglishMike A conversation becomes a whole different beast when trying to honestly and intellectually engage with what boils down to a religious, lying apologist weasle. I like these open and civil conversations instead of two pricks trying to fling sharp words across a stage. The latter can be fun at times, naturally, I just don't see how this variant would be detrimental or "lesser" to any topic discussed.

[@EnglishMike]

@@MrYelly Asking challenging questions doesn't require you to be a prick about it. He could have easily pushed guests like Bishop Robert Barron to defend their position through some follow up questions without being an a-hole about it.

[@asorelle]

Great job Alex. I love your new content and look forward to every episode!

[@zaidzaid7455]

﴿مَا المَسيحُ ابنُ مَريَمَ إِلّا رَسولٌ قَد خَلَت مِن قَبلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدّيقَةٌ كانا يَأكُلانِ الطَّعامَ انظُر كَيفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآياتِ ثُمَّ انظُر أَنّى يُؤفَكونَ﴾ [المائدة: 75] (75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food.[277] Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. [277]- They were in need of sustenance, proving that they were creations of Allāh, not divine beings. - English Translation

[@asorelle]

@@zaidzaid7455 Do you crazy zealot types really think that trolling in comments is actually doing anything? It's not even relative to my comment! I'm seriously laughing here.

[@afsar_gunner5271]

Both Bart Ehrman and Alex have nothing better to do so they create these utube rubbish for views/money ! who even cares if you do believe or don't believe in God !! Because billions do believe and have faith in God ! Stop disrespecting and mocking religious people - CLOWNS 🤡

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@angryyoungman66]

If the lie is old then its believable People long ago were witnessing miracles like having breakfast , people are walking on water , coming back from death splitting seas splitting moons

[@wizdomministries5720]

Eeeerm....not exactly a proper conclusion. Miracles weren't common at all...and very rare.

[@humanitech]

Lets be honest here...many humans continue to join, invent, create, peddle, build and promote all sorts of different and divisive (but similarly structured ) master and minion human pyramid schemes, groups, bow down or be damned juju cults, winner take all businesses, regimes, fantasies and empires....all to attract, convince, fool or force others to join, bow dow, and become subordinate minion ...who serve, support, defend and of course enrich their respective masters, bosses, leaders or rulers - and whatever (positive or negative) realities and agendas their masters inflict on them - whilst claiming to be righteous of course.

[@harrywinner7403]

Miracles seem to happen less and less the more we have technology to record them (books, telegraph, phone, …)

[@wizdomministries5720]

@@JD-wu5pf Ur only proving my point....neither does it debunk my point at all

[@wizdomministries5720]

@@JD-wu5pf I just gave u the time span of major miracles in the bible. How did you miss that? Unless ur didn't read my entire comment. Given the time span within scripture, it's not irrational to expect to not see miracles within our own lifetimes.

[@AlexanderLayko]

The letter of Saint Clement (96 CE) says the apostles Peter and Paul were both martyred (sections 5:4 to 6:1).

[@Philusteen]

Love that these two connected - been following both for years.

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@Philusteen]

@@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT Matthew 24 -" Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (best fake French accent) "2000+ years later....."

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

@@Philusteen Matthew 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Make sure to include the chapter and the verse.

[@justarshad8354]

Legendary interview! And yeah jesus as a prophet(i.e messiah) is more convincing than him claiming to be god.. Watch till the very end.. You both discuss on almost all the topics that i wanted to understand big time.. So big thanks for this high quality content.. keep the good work coming!❤

[@ensenqui]

Most historians agree that Jesus existed, died, and was crucified. As for the resurrection, everyone wants to see in order to believe, but Jesus clearly said "Blessed are those who believe without having seen".🙌

[@God1stProductions]

Early Church knew all of these things and preserved all of it for future generations and they still knew and belived and went to their death willingly becuse they knew Jesus was God. Then this guys comes along 2000 years later…😂🤦‍♂️ naaw bro

[@believeroflight9888]

That is because you are a Muslim. you are just like Christians seeing what you want to .

[@theselectivecentrist8146]

Jesus was not a prophet, and did not claim one-sided like Muhammad did, Jesus is Lord and SAVIOR

[@adgdrgar]

@@ensenqui "Blessed are those who believe without having seen". Translation - "Trust me Bro".

[@vwabi]

I honestly find this view of the Bible so much more interesting than how Christian pastors/apologists often treat it. From what I've seen, they often just seem to pick whatever verse applies best, or even use verses from different authors without considering the implications. By taking the approach Ehrman takes, contrasting different gospels with each other and considering what the authors knew and meant, I feel like you actually learn way more about the actual meaning of the bible, instead of projecting your own meaning on it.

[@TorianTammas]

The fan fiction stories are a ventriloquism dummy for the preacher.

[@ghouliesgarage3922]

Ehrman is biased towards atheism.

[@musicmasterplayer4532]

You may be comparing apples with oranges, preachers are not scholars.

[@Jarige2]

Preachers are often well taught though. Most churches require a study of theology, which is the combination of philosophy, history, textual research methods, learning proper exegesis etc. They take what they learn from scholars and use that information to learn about the Bible. So yes, they take into account what Bart says here. It's just that what Bart says is not really convincing.

[@MichaelTooman]

@@Jarige2 Upton Sinclair said, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

[@randyw.8781]

How does God write this new covenant on the hearts of the people that all may "know" Him? “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

[@cHackz18]

Really enjoyed this one. Bart has a new fan. Love the scholarly treatment of the gospels and the surrounding evidence for the claims within.

[@emcnair2]

Listening to the part of the discussion focusing on the scriptural account of seeing Jesus after his death. I have a simple modern example of people believing they saw a person after his death -Elvis! There were dozens of accounts claiming that they saw Elvis after his death. And this is in modern times, where his death is thoroughly documented. People often see and believe what they want to see and believe. Especially when they are grieving, and they are in need of comfort and hope.

[@Wurldly]

By that standard you might as well be an atheist. Belief is faith.

[@emcnair2]

@@Wurldly Faith and historical fact are two different things. This part of the discussion was focused on historical accuracy. I wasn't questioning an individual's faith or the value of having faith. Alex seemed to be struggling with the concept of why the biblical record wasn't sufficient to be regarded as a factual account. He also didn't seem to grasp Bart's position of not believing that people were lying while at the same time stating that the biblical account wasn't enough to provide concrete historical evidence of the resurrection. Accepting Jesus' resurrection and Godhood is, as you said, an act of faith. If there was enough evidence for it to be a historical fact, there would be no need for you to have faith.

[@Wurldly]

@@humanistreformation you’re simply putting your faith in whoever is telling you the facts. science facts are always changing.

[@emcnair2]

I believe that science and religion can co-exist. I also believe that science evolves as we gather better information. So too, religious perspectives should evolve as we gather better information. The conflict comes when we try to treat sacred texts as factual documents. Most sacred texts were written hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. If you compared scientific writing of that same period, you would find them equally dated. The larger question is, why aren’t we updating religious perspectives in the same way we update scientific perspectives? And regarding someone's comment that Jesus is a lair -Jesus never wrote anything. The earliest gospels were written between 70 - 140 AD. This means that they were not written by first-hand accounts. So accuracy is not the standard by which they should be measured. To me, the focus of spiritual pursuits should be; how can I live a more fulfilled life? How can I be a person? How can I live in better harmony with others? How can I help make my world a better place for others? How do I find hope during challenging times? To me, whether or not Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected or that he is the actual son of God is irrelevant. The more profound question is, can I find meaning and hope in these sacred texts? I don't restrict my spiritual pursuits to just one sacred text. I read a variety of sources. I am more fascinated by the consistency of belief and not the unique exceptions of individual religions.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

I am very interested in the concept of “consistency of belief” would you say it could be an argument to not oppose religion? Would you said that we can ask ourselves the questions “how to be a person?” “How to live in harmony with others” and answer them without religion?

[@markrichter2053]

I absolutely love this conversation and it merits at least a second listen The pertinent questions framed so simply and precisely and the crystal clear logic of Bart’s answers make hit such an informed and informative conversation. These two are wonderful and I can’t praise them enough. Two smart, honest scholars elucidating these issues so t gf at we too can see as clearly as possible. So helpful and so easy to follow.

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@kishorilalkishoreda5719]

There are so many NDE videos that people see Jesus is sitting next to the throne of God. And yet Christians keep saying that Jesus is God. Nonetheless. Even in Islam Jesus is called a prophet or messenger of the God.

[@tanzilmuslehudd9403]

The problem is ndes it is different for everyone, but yes, you are right

[@anthonyrowland9072]

Christianity wasn't always Trinitarian. It always seemed like more "The Catholics made it up" like with a lot of stuff. The story of Jesus and the prostitute was added in the 700s. You can't get caught up in dogma...

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

If Jesus isn't God made man to die for our sins then our faith is vain and no amount of acting and actions can make us pure in the eyes of God.

[@kishorilalkishoreda5719]

@@bonbondurjdr6553 God is logical. One man cannot die for someone else’s sins. And in that case, Hitler can enjoy his afterlife ? Specially, that he has killed over 6 million Jews. Because Jesus died for his sins as well ?

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

@@kishorilalkishoreda5719 if that man is perfect, and only God is perfect, then yes he can totally take on your sins.

[@ABARANOWSKISKI]

Thank you for this interview! I love Bart Ehrman, I'm a huge fan of his. I've read almost all his books. They changed my life. Bart is like a logic machine!

[@rsr789]

Logic, but no reason. So he makes arguments which are internally logically correct, but are unreasonable in demonstrable reality.

[@moestv8011]

Are you christian? May i ask you if jesus is God or just a prophet ( Q from a muslim, no intention for hate )

[@ABARANOWSKISKI]

@@moestv8011 I'm a non-believer.

[@donhue4546]

@@ABARANOWSKISKI YOUR A NON BELIEVER YET THINK BART IS GOOD,LMFAO,YOU SHOULD BE A MUSLIM

[@donhue4546]

@@moestv8011 YOU CAN ANSWER IF JESUS WAS GOD BY THE QURAN,BY USING THE LOGIC,NOW CAN GOD DIE,NO,GOD CANT DIE,CAN HUMANS DIE,YES,SO,IS JESUS DEAD,NO (ALLAH)CLAIMED TO SAVE HIM AND TOOK HIM TO JENAH,SO HE STILL LIVES,SO JESUS MUST BE GOD,AS HES HUMAN AND NOT DEAD,BUT JESUS DID DIE,AS HE WAS BORN OF HUMAN FLESH,PROVING GOD CAN DIE,AND GOD CAN BE BORN,ALL OF WHICH,MUSLIMS DENY ,BUT SAY ALLAH CAN DO SANY THING HE WILLS,BUT ALLAH CAN NOT DIE OR BE BORN.....NOW WHY WOULD ALLAH CREATE JESUS FROM A WOMAN,WHEN HE CREATED ADAM FROM CLAY,THINK ABOUT IT....ALSO GOD CAN BECOME A HUMAN,BUT NO HUMAN CAN BE GOD,HENCE JESUS WAS HUMAN FOR 33YRS TILL HE DIED,THEN ROSE TYO BE GOD AGAIN...NOW CAN YOU SHOW PROOF OF ALLAH B4R THE QURAN ???

[@jseaman256]

the discussion and topics were excellent. The reasons and justifications given by Bart Ehrman of course are terrific. My goal is to someday meet Dr. Bart Ehrman.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

To say that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the three persons are three separate "beings" is an astonishing rookie error for a scholar of Ehrman's fame. Any Catholic who goes to mass on Sundays, weekly recites in the Creed (formulated in Nicaea ad 325, and tweaked in Constantinople ad 381): "I believe in One Lord Jesus Christ (...) *One in being with the Father* ...." I also had a high regard for Bart Ehrman, but this interview was highly disappointing, not only for the above mentioned reason, but also because of his rabid skepticism that comes across as very much ad hoc. For example, he affirms that Jesus was condemned to death by Pilates for calling himself the King of the Jews, which he can only know from the Gospels he much distrusts when they say that he had previously condemned to death by the Sanhedrin previously for calling himself God. Seems very convenient to pick and choose _from the same source_ whatever best fits his narrative.

[@jseaman256]

@@xaviervelascosuarez the doctrine of the Trinity is 3 persons in one Being. They all have different names, thus the Person but are of one essence, thus the Being

[@garlandjones7709]

You need scholars other than Ehrman to go off. I'm not recommending not listening to him. Actually I'd keep him just so later you can always have a reminder of what a good bukksjitter looks like.

[@sebolddaniel]

@@xaviervelascosuarez Well said

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

.Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@aodhfyn2429]

I agree. I think Jesus was making some claims to a kind of divinity - but he seems to have been claiming this divine nature would also be shared by his followers in the kingdom to come, and the actual nature of that divinity is far more complicated than the trinitarian model promoted by Paul and adopted by the Nicene Counsel. (Although I also believe Paul was promoting a different kind of trinitarian model than that believed by Christians today.)

[@aodhfyn2429]

@@charlesblackburn1195 Paul insisted on the the divinity of Christ. I'd have to reread his books to assure myself he talked about the Holy Spirit, but I remember him doing so. There is no formalized doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible, but Paul is the most heavily used for its foundation.

[@aodhfyn2429]

@@charlesblackburn1195 Phil. 2: verses 9-11, 1st Corinthians 12: verse 4-6, Titus 2: verse 13, etc. There are lots of little places, there are no clear callouts.

[@mikesmythe3423]

He never made ANY claim to divinity!!! Never.

[@aodhfyn2429]

@@mikesmythe3423 not directly. Maybe not at all if you don't believe the gospels.

[@mikesmythe3423]

@aodhfyn2429 who wrote the Gospels, my friend? The first recorded writing that anyone, scholars, the clergy or self professed experts agree on, is at least 80 years, minimum, after Jesus. The disciples, all of them, had long since gone, and we know for a fact that it was NO ONE that had either listened or heard, Jesus or his disciples preach. There was NO ONE to corroborate that what was written was even true. I don't want to get into a long-winded dissertation as to the validity of the New Testament. Suffice to say that almost half of it, if not more, are teachings of Paul. Not Jesus. In fact, Paul directly negates several of Jesus's teachings. Two quick examples are the idea of Original Sin. Jesus NEVER taught that or suggested that. He outright spoke of how a man's sins were his own and could not be inherited by his family. 2nd and I mention this to bring a smile to your face, is Circumcision. Jesus ordered us to do so. Paul said no. We listened to Paul, who I believe is the BIGGEST anti christ there ever was, and broke tradition with both the Jews and Muslims, who do circumcise their men, keeping in line with the teachings of pretty much all the men of God sent with the Word from Him. Anyhow, when you have time, friend, look up the Red Letter Bible and compare it to what you read now. Also, look up the council of Nicea. Try to find a historical account of it, rather than a religious one, so as not to read a biased view. Anyhow. I wish you the best. I hope that you receive the guidance from God and find the truth. Peace my friend

[@steveavecillas1114]

Why don't they talk about the jewish mythology The jewish exodus never happened Moses never lived Cannenites lived in Israel before the jews

[@I-AmTheLiquor]

Every time I listen to Bart I learn something new. This was very well done. Hats off to you Alex & Bart.🎩

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

To say that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that the three persons are three separate "beings" is an astonishing rookie error for a scholar of Ehrman's fame. Any Catholic who goes to mass on Sundays, weekly recites in the Creed (formulated in Nicaea ad 325, and tweaked in Constantinople ad 381): "I believe in One Lord Jesus Christ (...) *One in being with the Father* ...." I also had a high regard for Bart Ehrman, but this interview was highly disappointing, not only for the above mentioned reason, but also because of his rabid skepticism that comes across as very much ad hoc. For example, he affirms that Jesus was condemned to death by Pilates for calling himself the King of the Jews, which he can only know from the Gospels he much distrusts when they say that he had previously condemned to death by the Sanhedrin previously for calling himself God. Seems very convenient to pick and choose _from the same source_ whatever best fits his narrative.

[@I-AmTheLiquor]

@@xaviervelascosuarez Xavier, you do know Historians outside of the Gospels mention the Crucifixion by Pilate outside the Gospels right? Both Tacitus and Josephus. I think Pliny the Younger as well. So no, he’s not “cherry picking” to fit his narrative.

[@hubertagamasu6283]

@@xaviervelascosuarez Thank God there's at least one smart person seeing through this deception of Ehrmann.

[@hubertagamasu6283]

@@I-AmTheLiquor In this same video, Ehrman questions why Paul, an early writer, did not quote Jesus saying "I am God' (even though Paul explicitly calls Jesus God!). However, when it is pointed out to him that Paul, an early source, speaks about the resurrection, he claims we cannot believe that. Appealing to Paul to show Jesus never said he was God, and throwing Paul under the bus when it contradicts him on resurrection. That's worse than cherry-picking.

[@kennethbrownsher1264]

@@xaviervelascosuarez the Johanine Comma. Is fake. The Church knew it.

[@chitzkoi]

Even at this age, Ehrman is so much better in dialogue with someone rather than over the phone or zoom. It's great to see him getting out and about to sit down with people - he sounds like he hasn't aged a day compared to some of the other stuff out there

[@afsar_gunner5271]

Both Bart Ehrman and Alex have nothing better to do so they create these utube rubbish for views/money ! who even cares if you do believe or don't believe in God !! Because billions do believe and have faith in God ! Stop disrespecting and mocking religious people - CLOWNS 🤡

[@IAMNOTIAMNOTIAMNOT]

.Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[@markvon9727]

Alex, Bart knows that some of Paul's letters were written before the gospels. Why didn't he reference the times Paul called him God?

[@arminkrahbar]

An absolute joy listening to Bart Ehraman. Thank you for making these great educational videos.

[@montollo1098]

I've read a few of Dr. Ehrman's books and I have to admit I do enjoy his work. He shines a light on many biblical subjects that I often heard when I was child and wonderful about their authenticity.

[@JohnnyLang-dw8ll]

Jesus is In all of the scriptures John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus's birth Micah 5 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Matthew 2:5 (KJV) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, Jesus's suffering Psalm 22 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns Jesus arriving In Jerusalem Zechariah 9:9 (KJV) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Matthew 21:5 (KJV) 21:5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. John 12:14-15 (KJV) 12:14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. Psalm 22 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns ************************ Psalm 118:22 (KJV) The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. Matthew 21:42 (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Psalm 34:20 (KJV) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. John 19:36 (KJV) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. Judas: Psalm 41:9 (KJV) Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me. Psalm 55 12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: 13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company Zec 11 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 ¶ And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD Matthew 26: 14 ¶ Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, 15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him Crucifixion Psalm 22:18 (KJV) They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Luke 23:34 (KJV) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Psalm 22:16 (KJV) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psalm 22:1 (KJV) [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? Mark 15:34 (KJV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 26:54 (KJV) But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Matthew 26:56 (KJV) But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled. Mark 14:49 (KJV) I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled. Luke 24:27 (KJV) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:32 (KJV) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? Luke 24:45 (KJV) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words Acts 2 29 ¶ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 ¶ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 ¶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ Acts 18:28 (KJV) For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. Acts 28:23 (KJV) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening. Romans 1:2 (KJV) (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Romans 16:26 (KJV) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Matthew 2:23 (KJV) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 11:13 (KJV) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

[@diegog1853]

I really admire the ability of Alex to steel man an argument. He is truly putting his all into defending the resurrection claims, almost seems like he believes at times and might potentially annoy his own guest with his push back. And on the other hand yeah... I really dislike the opposite, when people like william lane craig strawman scholars and historians by saying that they overwhelmingly agree with some historical "fact" they absolutely do not agree with. I've seen christians argue that pretty much everything that appears in the gospel is historical fact aside from resurrection, and at that point when you accept the whole narrative arround it as fact, then believing the few missing pieces as correct doesn't seem so far fetched.

[@jimmymelonseed4068]

The author of John wrote in response to a particular heresy that doubted Jesus’s divinity. That’s why he wrote the stories emphasizing that point. Tim Staples gave a very good talk on this recently.

[@SmalltimR]

Divinity; yes. Equal with GOD, or GOD Himself; no

[@johnh2326]

We’ll, we have passages in John that like the video mentions: where Jesus clearly implies that he is indeed God. And these points are later emphasized in revelations that where Jesus does call himself the Alpha and omega. Implying that which further implies he is God.

[@smalltimer4370]

@@johnh2326 1. There are no records of GOD implying He is GOD in all of Bible history - but moreso, where every single declaration of His identity are direct and without question 2. Jesus would never contradict Himself by stating no man had ever seen GOD, then implying He was GOD 3. Jesus had a GOD to whom He attributed all things, and who He went-on to call His GOD and our GOD 4. Jesus also revealed that everything He has; names, titles, authority, power, rulership, and-on and so-forth, was given to Him by His Father 5. Jesus revealed that He is the first and the last to die - that is to say, the last to die, under the New covenant, and the first to be brought back to life again, under the New covenant That being said, and while it is quite popular for people to argue that Jesus is either equal-to or GOD Himself, it remains that must do so at the expense of vast portions of scripture so-as to avoid the conflicts and contradictions that comes from such a view. Whereas those who honour the entirety of scripture, come to know that the truth of matters is that Jesus is exactly who claimed to be while on earth - that is to say, the Son of GOD and prophesied Messiah.

[@zaidkapadia6824]

So he apparently just made up stuff as Jesus's sayings because some people hurt his feelings and said Jesus wasn't God? Dang, blind faith in the crossdogs running since the 1st century itself

[@zaidkapadia6824]

​@@johnh2326 Name me the author of revelations and then maybe anyone will pay any attention and give any credit to whatever it says.

[@MathewThomasFET]

Lk. 1:1-4. "1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught". I wonder how Ehrman is considered a Bible scholar and what he studied in the Bible college he attended‼️

[@RenoTKC]

Despite not believing in God or Jesus I think these episodes are incredibly interesting. The deep mythology and history of these stories is just incredible

[@alisterrebelo9013]

How deep does it have to go before you can call it 'true' ?

[@RenoTKC]

@@alisterrebelo9013 what? The greek pantheon has a great deep mythology too, that holds no inherit value when it comes to judging its validity

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@RenoTKC Instead of answering my question you resort to asking a question, that's pretty rude. I'll chase you into you rabbit warren as you tap dance away from my question. You could take any and all of the heros and gods of the Greek pantheon and make a list of characteristics shared by them e.g. they were inevitable, inexplicable, incredible, instructive, immortal, intercessors, etc. Not a single one embodies all of these characteristics. But Jesus did. So you're right, the Greek pantheon is deep, but my claim is Jesus is deeper. And my ultimate claim is that the depth of Jesus is so deep and applicable across multiple domains such as time and cross-cultures, that you have to consider the possibility that it has crossed a threshold to the realm of objectivity. For example, if you tried to live as Jesus did, such as love God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbour as you love yourself, would you and your society improve? Would this improvement not show up in any age or culture? If the person embodied more of Jesus, humility, serving others, don't lie, speak the truth, act with compassion, forgive others, self-control, are they and society going to get better or worse? And seeing as none of the 12 athiests I've challenged have ever been able to prove to me that objective morality can be derived without invoking some Christian statement (e.g. every person is created in the image of God), one has to be open to the divinity of Jesus. Now I'm happy for you to be #13 if you'd like, so give it your best shot.

[@RenoTKC]

@@alisterrebelo9013 slow down there buckaroo. I didn't ask a question did i? I agree that the philosophy of Jesus as depicted in the new testament is wonderful and most of these teachings i try to follow in my life, such as loving everyone, even your enemies, and being forgiving and just. I don't believe in an objective morality in terms of something higher, more spiritual and I don't think we need that. Of course there are ways to infer objective morality without a higher power, such as when Rationality Rules did it by using biological imperatives as a basis for morality, i.e the first "ought" would be derived from an is. But I don't see how that matters as to why Jesus is the son of god or a divine prophet? Fact is there are plenty of fictional characters whose virtues are commendable and who you could point to as universal role models, depending on your cultural background and preconceived standards. You might want to live your life like Hercules or Superman. There are some characters who have been written as completely perfect in the context of their time and culture. A spartan wouldn't have seen Jesus as the perfect role model but Leonidas. A greek warrior wouldn't strive to be all forgiving and just but would strive to be witty, brave and relentless like Odysseus. Virtues and standards change all the time, but from your or even my current perspective Jesus embodies what we should all strive to be. I guess what I'm tryna say here is that being a good lad and supposedly preaching nice things don't make Jesus a prophet, let alone the son of god

[@musicalwarrior9079]

@@alisterrebelo9013 I think the fact the you assume the need for objective morality is already something I don’t fully agree with. I think there’s ways that societies can determine the moral values that they choose to follow without needing a religion or deity to give it to them, and so I don’t think there needs to be a purely “object morality” that id argue for. I think the original commenter gave an example of someone who did create a form of objective morality based on evolutionary and naturalistic reasoning and I’ll check that out but either way, choosing to act according to positive moral values doesn’t require religion, and it definitely doesn’t prove the truth of a religion either.

[@hijackbyejack1729]

I have a question that I don't believe was answered. They claim that "son of god" and "son of man" are not claims of divinity, so what would they be claims of then?

[@eesev2017]

Jesus never claimed to be the son of man, he thought he’d be appointed by the son of man as the human messiah. The son of man is a divine figure, but jesus didn”t claim *that* divinity. Son of God applied to every true israelite (or sth like that) in Jesus’ day

[@BeAllEndAll-i3e]

​@@eesev2017Jesus often referred to himself as the son of man even going as far as to quote Daniel 7:13 in Mark 14:62 when brought before the pharisees and again in Mark 10:45, "The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many."

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@eesev2017Jesus explicitly claimed to be the Son of Man in Mark 14.

[@sebolddaniel]

@@eesev2017 The son of man idea came from The Book of Enoch, then went the Book of Daniel. What a shame Enoch isnt in the Bible

[@sebolddaniel]

Check the non canonical book of Enoch written around three hundred BC. It was the first time the son of man idea occurred. The Metatron in that book is the Son Of Man. Ha Ha. They really need to stop this plagiarizing

[@haze1123]

This has been my favorite interview with Bart, and I've heard many previous hours. Fantastic.

[@TheWitness-fx4xq]

Unitarians would find it hard to believe that Jesus is God because of the things that He said that seems to contradict with the ONE God belief system, but for Trinitarians everything that He said just fits perfectly of being the second person in the Holy Trinity. Contrary to what others say, Trinitarians do believed that there is only ONE God but this God is comprised of 3 distinct personalities or persons. It all boils down to the "WHAT" (being or nature) and the "WHO" (person). For humans: 1 WHAT --> human 1 WHO --> e.g. John For God: 1 WHAT --> God 3 WHO(s) --> Father, Son and Holy Spirit (with distinct personalities or persons, able to communicate and interact on their own). Peace and Blessings!

[@xit1254]

I have a close relative who is a Jehovah's Witness. She once breathlessly told me of some miracle that had happened because another JW had told her all about it. I did what I always do when I'm being preached to, I nodded my head and tried to change the subject.

[@daanmollema6366]

"I did what i always do, I didnt take them seriously; avoided listening and tried to move the conversation away". Sounds like a great method for Christians to get around atheistic critique!

[@danm8004]

​@@1998kid1did the Watchtower think sending you on a Joe Rogan crash course would make them more trendy?

[@1998kid1]

@@danm8004 huh?

[@danm8004]

@@1998kid1 you are trying to spread your cult by aligning with the JRE on other topics, it's pretty transparent.

[@1998kid1]

@@danm8004 not accurate calling jw a cult , just speaking about my life’s experiences here. Please be respectful

[@ThePostmillennial]

Psalm 107: 27 They reeled and staggered like drunkards; they were at their wits’ end. 28 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble, and he brought them out of their distress. 29 He stilled the storm to a whisper; the waves of the sea were hushed. 30 They were glad when it grew calm, and he guided them to their desired haven. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things and in him all things hold together. Colossians 2:9 For in Christ, all the fullness of the diety resides in bodily form.

[@kieronbrowne7881]

Could I ask, what is the meaning for quoting scriptures?

[@Cee-b3x]

You must be a student of Claudine Gay. Your plagiarism is pretty good.

[@kieronbrowne7881]

@@Cee-b3x apparently if it’s written down is true.

[@aRF06]

firstly, psalm is atributed to david. secondly collosion is paul letter. its not even jesus word.

[@kieronbrowne7881]

@@aRF06 who gives a shit. What use is an imaginary god that hides in the sky somewhere or other.

[@AkoSiFrance]

2 bright people in an awesome room talking about worthy stuff. I love it.

[@cashrjr23]

" I and the Father are one.” John 10:30 "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9

[@Philmoscowitz]

Maybe John made that up for purposes of marketing and recruitment.

[@gregorywhittaker8321]

⁠@@Philmoscowitzyeah just so he could end up exiled to the isle of Patmos or maybe he was recruiting for a health spa he was running there

[@Mo_Hamd72]

They are one in purpose. Don't count on this verse from John to be authentic. Paul is playing tricks on you.

[@Philmoscowitz]

​@@gregorywhittaker8321 You'll have to forgive my ignorance. I'm relatively new to Bible studies. But I just learned that John the apostle didn't even write the letter known as "John" in the New Testament. In fact, none of the letters named after the apostles were written by them. They were first written down in Greek by other Christians. So, in other words, you can't take what's written in them at face value. By the late first century AD, Christians were trying to resolve various contradictions in the stories about Jesus as well as trying to recruit new followers. The letters in the New Testament are probably better understood as marketing material rather than as factual accounts.

[@cashrjr23]

@@Mo_Hamd72 God guarantees his Word is true...or none is true

[@des2knee962]

We have been saying this from 1400 years. " within reason" is surprisingly clear and plain given the heading. I am an instant fan

[@joeycsk8305]

Who we? You were born indoctrinated into this you never lived back at that time

[@kukuipupule4415]

Why is water wet?

[@GarrettAbbey]

@@kukuipupule4415You see, water molecules are held together by hydrogen bonds, involving hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms. When water molecules come into contact with a surface, these forces create the condition of a liquid being wet.

[@Lindaeditz8]

Where did jesus pbuh say his the biological son of god,and where has ehrman agree to this??​@dark_mode

[@bouzoukiman5000]

You have to realize these were Greeks trying to convince Greeks that jesus was god and all the magical and miraculous stories that became more magical as time went on were true. Alex. I think you use the word, facts, too often. Love your show

[@thoughtsoutloud6685]

Bart lost me when he said Paul's testimony may be made up but he doesn't believe he was intentionally trying to lie. How did he know Paul made up the story even though he did not intend to lie? I strongly believe Bart is pervaded by his biases and like any one with his opinions Bart's position on the matter are not exactly accurate!

[@mohammedkhan8]

So you think you know better it's ok man keep on believing that your God died and pissed and shitted in The toilet then got beat up by its own creation and then god got nailed on the cross and died oh and that your so called god was born through a woman's vagina ohhh ooops

[@shanederry2691]

Matthew 9:8 When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men. This verse refutes the claim of Jesus being deity.

[@Brecf2p]

Fantastic interview. Alex put aside his personal beliefs to challenge, to the best of his ability, the claims put before him.

[@lazykbys]

When Christians say the martyrs wouldn't have died for a lie, I'm always tempted to ask what they think of suicide bombers.

[@jbeiler55]

The common reply I've seen is that the disciples were firsthand eyewitnesses so they would be in a place to actually know if it were true or not. More akin to someone helping film a UFO hoax and then being willing to die for a lie they helped create. Where the suicide bombers sincerely believe but don't have first hand experience to actually know if it's true or not.

[@cc3775]

They wouldn’t die For a lie they knew to be a lie.

[@josipag2185]

Your mockery tells us how privileged illeducated and unbrilliant you are. In reality bombers who kill the infidels you put in the line people who basically didn't want to gave state ownership of theit lives- and I as agnostic - can really appreciate the beauty and maryrism of those people who decided that their rights universal rights to be free and not to be in hate with other humans, are not negotiable and are not given to us or granted by any ruler, leader, Empire, or state and are given to us by invisible force and are the same for us all.

[@Panaghhiaa]

You’re comparing terrorists who inflict pain and suffering on population with Saints who were tortured in a the most inhumane manner???? For preaching the words of God?? Are you okay? Do you have any idea of how much faith in God you need to have to handle the pain of being skinned alive?? Tf 💀💀

[@bkoch1]

First of all, today’s suicide bombers are not witnesses to Muhammed’s life and claims, but the apostles were witnesses to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. If the research we are uncovering is true about Muhammed, anyone witnessing his delusions and perversion would realize he is a fraud.

[@pedroappa7]

It's a very simple question to me. Jesus doesn't say "I am God" with this exact words because He is the Son of God and He wants the people to differentiate them. They have the same divine essence, but the Son in fact came in a role of obedience to save all the people and reconnect them to God the Father. Jesus in fact made several claims that He is God, having the same essence of Him. But He did that in a manner that people would believe in his divine essence but differentiate, because they are two different people with different roles. He was made of flesh, bones and blood after all, He was human and God the Father is not human. In many passages of Matthew, one of the books that Bart mentioned that He doesn't claims, He accepts worship, says about His authority in heaven and earth, promise to be continually present, puts himself in the same level of God and the Holy Spirit, Walks on water and more. The only question I ask everyone is this: Could He who is only a prophet do all this?

[@joshuarichard6827]

Jesus didnt do miracles in Matthew by his own power. GOD gave Jesus the power in Matthew.

[@joshuarichard6827]

Jesus is only a prophet period. Read wht you said, none of it makes sense and is circular

[@edwingolob4197]

God or god being....... God named himself Jehovah and the son was named after him "Jehovah saves " !!!!

[@ericwilliams626]

Jesus didn't say I am God due to politics and emotional reactions. He's not stupid.

[@edwingolob4197]

@@pedroappa7 so split personality

[@nedsantos1415]

I have said to my Christian friends that whether Jesus was God or not, whether he was resurrected from the dead or not, whether he would come again or not, and whether he was the Messiah or not does not matter to me. What matters to me is what he taught, especially "love one another."

[@reaganlecroy7773]

How does his resurrection not matter? Has anyone else ever been resurrected?

[@nedsantos1415]

Have you researched other traditions? Many have..maybe not amplified by political power, but there have been records. In China, they have actual records of mortals ascending into the sky in front of thousands of people, and those mortals did not even die in the first place. So, spare me of the provincial view of Jesus' resurrection. Also, why so fearful of death so much so that you need someone to return from the dead to tell you it's OK to move on?

[@ahmedvawda1282]

@@reaganlecroy7773when Jesus was supposedly resurrected the bible said that all the dead people crept out of their graves and were walking in the streets of Jerusalem. Go figure 😅

[@TorianTammas]

​@@reaganlecroy7773Yes tons of them Gercukes became a god after his death. Ceasar and most roman emperors became God's after there death. It was a pretty common troupe to be a god in life or after your life.

[@izzytoons]

@nedsnatos: exactly. Yet so many Christians fail to do that. In fact, they go out of their way to find people to hate.

[@toby9999]

Brilliant discussion. I've been a Bart Erhman fan for a long time. He does great job of exposing the holes in the Christian texts dogmas and doctrines.

[@TheShadowPuppet1000]

​@@NSOcarthFeel free to put specifics as to which arguments are deflated by which church fathers.

[@TheShadowPuppet1000]

@NSOcarth Silly statement. Your knowledge is predicated on my curiosity, let's test it. How many prime numbers are there? Or are you just being pedantic? Specific to the topic, specifically which claims or arguments advocated by Bart Ehrman have been deflated by "Fathers"? Specifically, how did they do it? Lastly, which "Fathers" have done thins thing?

[@richardredmond1463]

He exposes the holes in the Christian text but then adds two and two and gets seventeen. Barts problem is that he continually over-eggs his conclusions. No matter how many times in debates Christian scholars point out to him that if you add up all the mistakes, errors and interpolations together, they only make meaningful difference to far less than 1% if the text, he ignores that and makes out there's a big problem. He has even admitted once in a published work that if you add them all up, no major, foundational Christian teaching is affected by all these differences. Yet he goes on year after year, suggesting the opposite. Not good.

[@oremstale8558]

​@richardredmond1463 all it takes is 1%. If the doctrine and texts are in error, then why believe any of it?

[@MandolinGuy530]

It's been a while since I read the bible in its entirety (literally years), but if I'm remembering correctly from my reading the only thing Jesus ever claimed around this is that he had become one with god, but he clarified that he was referring to fulfilling the purpose for his life, and that anyone else could become one with god in the same way he had.

[@mssouth1964]

You forget the scripture that said before abraham was I am. In other words I am the I am of the old testament

[@rustyk4645]

​@@mssouth1964 there He is: The Big I Am!

[@AdvocateSpirit]

The bible is littered with evidence of Jesus' divinity (at least in the writers opinion). The gospel of John has 21 chapters and each one has a Divine link. Pick a number and I'd point it out if you like, or better yet have a double check yourself. However to me the mightiest claim is Jesus referring to himself as the Son of Man which is a divine being in Jewish prophecy

[@Wertbag99]

@@AdvocateSpirit As pointed out in the interview, John's Gospel pushes the idea of Jesus being God while the other 3 gospels do not. The earlier writings never make that link, it appears to purely be John's intent to raise the previous stories to new heights. As for "the son of God", the phrase is used multiple times and does not mean God in most cases. Usually it refers to angels, and depending on which translation you prefer, the passages in Genesis that talk about the sons of God getting women pregnant either means men or angels.

[@mssouth1964]

@@Wertbag99 what do you do with the I am scripture . Before abraham was I am

[@nomacaiu]

Matthew 23:24, Jesus said: I am sending you prophets, wise man and scribes, some of them you'll kill... He hasn't quoted the Father during many paragraphs before saying this. So, I believe He talks about Himself, Jesus. And, who is to send prophets, wise men and scribes?

[@ianchisholm5756]

Great conversation:; interesting to see Alex in 'believer' mode.

[@mathiasmas]

Very interesting! You can see clearly that Alex O'Connor is at his best here as a strong theology-interviewer. Very good work!

[@PrometheanRising]

I do love that Bart gets to go around and low-key trash WLC for basically making stuff up about him.

[@wordauras]

This statement can be understood two ways Before Abraham was,.....Iam Or....Before Abraham,....was Iam. What do you think?

[@SmalltimR]

The most likely interpretation is that Jesus was claiming to have been alive at the time Abraham was on earth - I am = I existed, or, I was there

[@AbdulAbdul-wo8vl]

Bart Ehrman is the most celebrated scholar on the issue. I wish him all best.

[@sfitzy4]

Landed here after watching the Peter Hitchens interview.Bart is such a breath of fresh air after that. He seems like a genuine joy to talk to. And great interviewing by Alex as usual!

[@sonofafrica4826]

Let us see the "breath of fresh air" if he can or will attempt to discredit Islam. I am sure he does not have the cojones to do that.

[@user-vt3vo1yd3v]

@@sonofafrica4826He’s not an Islamic scholar moron, why would he care about talking about Islam? He has no experience on the subject. Either way, Islam can easily be discredited. The quran is the worst written book to ever exist. It’s all stolen stories from the bible, and filled with false science. Every scientific claim in the quran has been proven false. The quran says the sun revolves around earth and is the same size as the moon. The quran says the earth is flat with a crystal dome. Muslims try to lie and say these verses mean something else, but they don’t. They’re the exact same as in the bible and earlier religions describing geocentrism and flat earth. Those are just a handful. There’s a hundred more. This was over 1000 years after many societies and indivuals had proven the Earth to be round. The circumference of the Earth has been measured more than 1000 years before the quran was written. Yet the quran still says it’s flat 😂.

[@BlowsTube]

@@sonofafrica4826What is your point? You think Islam is some kind of gotcha trap? Why does your brain go, “oh yeah, well what about Islam?” when someone has something critical to say about the Bible? He has earned the right to make these comments as he’s dedicated his life to studying them. Plus, he is not saying anything that is out bounds in the scholarly community. Your comment is so very out of place.

[@drrickmarshall1191]

​@@sonofafrica4826He's not a Quranic scholar, so I'd say cojones have very little to do with it.

[@joshjames582]

@@drrickmarshall1191 Yeah I mean, it's not his area of expertise. What does this dude expect?

[@aguitarcalledchutzpah]

When you read the bible, you see that Jesus often doesnt say things directly but often speaks in parables and answers questions with further questions. People often dont respond well to direct statements or truths. They are often more receptive to it when they come to the intended conclusion after thinking about it for some time.

[@CowboyToucan]

@@LukasOfTheLight It’s not likely that eternal punishment was a concept that the historical Jesus would have preached. The concept of hell was not prevalent in 1st century Judaism. It is a later concept from Christian philosophers that has been largely imported onto the teachings of Jesus. In fact, Bart Ehrman has a book on the topic called “Heaven and Hell.”

[@aguitarcalledchutzpah]

@@LukasOfTheLight And do you see getting to the point as something that works?

[@bike4aday]

@@LukasOfTheLight "just get to the point" - This goes against a core principle of good teaching which is to start from the student's perspective, not your own. If you speak from your own perspective then it'll be like talking to the wind. It also undermines the challenges Jesus faced in correcting already existing misunderstandings which went counter to many strongly held beliefs, even so much that he was crucified for it. What he did was really skillful and that was to find something they already understood, which many times was personal, and made an analogy so they could get something tangible to explore and ponder on their own. Some of his lessons can take a whole lifetime to really understand and appreciate, but if he can leave people with something, then they'll continue to learn through contemplation and experience. In order to fully understand something it takes time, experience, and as many different perspectives on the topic as possible. That is not something you can give to people with a moment and a few words. I have a lot of respect for teachers that can teach well because it's a skill and an art on it's own.

[@SundayMatinee]

@@bike4aday You shall have no other God's before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images. ... Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. ... Remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. ... Honor your father and mother. ... Thou shalt not kill. ... Thou shalt not commit adultery. ... Thou shalt not steal. God spoke plainly and directly to his followers. And they obeyed (or suffered the consequences). I am Jesus, son of God. Believe in me and you shall be saved and enter the kingdom of Heaven. Refuse me and you shall be damned and cast into Hell to burn forever. You have been taught. You are welcome.

[@hubertagamasu6283]

@@LukasOfTheLight He did, He called himself the I AM (Ehrmann even agrees this is a name of God!). He claims to be the first and the last. He claims to be the one who resurrects the dead. Any logical person knows these are things only God can do and say. Your Bart Agrees, he only that he does not like John! But even if Jesus did not say "I am God" do the authors not call him God? Including the earliest such as Mark and Paul? Are you saying that you won't believe Alexander was king until you see a quote from him saying "I am king"? Please, don't be seduced by Ehrman's (il)logic.

[@erichodge567]

Alex, this is probably my favorite interview with Dr. Ehrman. Thank you for your smart questions! I learned a lot from this conversation.

[@eddiej9733]

Whilst I don’t think his interpretations are strong enough to counter the doctrinal understandings codified by the early churches traditions and later codifications, I cannot help but really like Bart Erman. He is different than other atheist scholars in that it doesn’t seem like a hateful personal crusade rather purely a ln exploration of the texts. He is open, polite, intelligent and persistent. He really is a rare individual in the realm of Christianity critics

[@eddiej9733]

@@arathihighlands2683 there has always been divergent views BUT as a relatively unified ‘church’ clear doctrine has always been central, defended and broadcast. There have also always been successive ‘heresies’ or departures from accepted doctrine and these are resolved through ecumenical councils An example is Arianism which interestingly was supported by Emporer Constantine and a bulk of the Church leaders at the time (300-400AD) BUT the theologians (rather than the front line clergy) stood by the doctrine that Jesus was made flesh but the same as God and not subordinate. The continuity of doctrine and tradition (interpretation of Jesus words and actions and subsequent Scripture) has been a turbulent but largely consensus ride right from the first discussions after Jesus ascension. Those that say the Catholic Church is a monolithic power structure are obviously unaware of the internal discussions, debates, fights ….. BUT consensus and a clear and thoroughly rationalised doctrine of the faith has always been present

[@eddiej9733]

@@arathihighlands2683 to summaries. Divergent views in the Church are how vibrant faith and practice are achieved. But there has ALWSYS been a central doctrinal set of tenets resolved by Councils.

[@eddiej9733]

@@arathihighlands2683 you misunderstand perhaps the theological hierarchy within the Catholic Church. It can sustain incredible diversity of thought and understanding but has always had at its heart the final say, the doctrines and dogmas. Differences have almost always been resolved by Councils, but it’s in the divergent views that much deeper and greater understandings occur More important in the beginning than doctrines and dogmas has been the Creedal prayers. These have always contained the singular central beliefs. These have changed only in so far they have been enriched and expounded as time has gone on. Nothing has been changed officially. If one is to study the early church, through the writings of the church fathers, a very clear singular creed is overwhelming obvious. The practises, the Eucharist, the Mass, the missional imperative, the prayers, the Creeds. Right from the Assension, the ‘Church’ is almost indistinguishable from the Catholic Church today. The early church was Catholic. Jesus taught a triune god creed. He expressed it very clearly in his claims to have existed from the beginning of time, as God. The Trinity is a doctrine that is Bourne out of the Scripture. It’s not a rationalisation of the concept of a trinity, but a semblance of attributes that we can pray, mediate and worship upon hoping for deeper awarenesses. It’s little wonder that there were divergent views, and passionately prosecuted ones But to say that the doctrines today where simple the ‘winning’ ones from a whole host of competing theories misses the point of the authority in which church leaders can speak and act. BUT all are rigorous in their scriptural foundations

[@eddiej9733]

@@arathihighlands2683 Again, you misunderstand the Church and its theological traditions if you believe that doctrine when articulated in a new way comes into being at that moment, rather than being a codification of long held tradition. The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” All the church fathers were very much guided by the principle that they were to change not a word or belief of Scripture The concept of the Trinity is bourne directly from Scriptures repeated mentions of the attributes of all three persons of persons of the single godhead, as noted above in Matthew. Evidenced here in the practices of the early church and recorded in the Didache “After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]). Again then later “We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5-6 [A.D. 151]). And agian Theophilus “It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]). And again with Irenaus “For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). And I’ll end with Tertulean, but there are so many more We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]). So in conclusion. The ‘concept’ of the triune god has been there all along, but the ‘development’ of the doctrine has changed, only deepened ans got richer in our understanding and appreciation. As for different Church’s, there are a multitude as you pointed out, but they ALL deviated away from the Church instituted by Jesus himself. It’s obvious is that when certain people or groups don’t like the creedal beliefs of traditional Church, yes of course they split off. But that doesn’t mean there were multiple beliefs in the Church, because ‘the Church’ has always meant the one true Church. The Catholic Church. Just because you see all Christian denominations as a plurality of Christianity - doesn’t make it so I think your other main error is that you misunderstand the nature of Jesus himself, being fully God and full man in the same person. The term hypostatic union was formed in the 5th century based on the continual belief from Jesus times and reading scripture is the nature of Jesus Nothing happened in the early church that wasn’t founded on Jesus teachings and the insightful understandings of that and easier scripture by the Apostles onwards.

[@eddiej9733]

@@arathihighlands2683 your going to have to dig and expound a lot deeper than ‘your quotes referring to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as co-focus’ of prayer, reverence and sacrament don’t justify the Trnity’ Literally from scripture and church fathers directly referring to the triune reference to God through both reference and s associative functions. These are the primary apologetic justifications (among many many others) that underpin the largest and oldest Christian church on earth, founded by Jesus himself. Clear, unified and as we can see, adopted as doctrine from the very beginning So that’s my position, the widely accepted position. Youve provided no even moderately detailed support of your position that the doctrine of the trinity wasn’t church position till mid 500s. How do you think the doctrine if the trinity was developed? What sort of ‘conspiracy’ do you attribute it to? And do you have any detail behind your claim that those passages don’t suggest a triune Gid. Because frankly it’s only your word against the traditions of the oldest Christian church. You e been long on claims so far, and very scant on any rigour

[@hexortime]

thank you so much for this interview with bart ehrman, very helpful in understanding the problem of the new testament texts

[@stevedriscoll2539]

Thanks for this excellent session Alex!

[@threestars2164]

Jesus did not claim to be divine or seek to be worshipped; such concepts were later additions by his followers to justify their movement after his death. The likes of Reimarus concluded that Jesus’s crucifixion represented the failure of his mission to establish the Kingdom of God. Jesus’s death, in this view, was not a part of a divine salvific plan but a tragic consequence of his confrontation with the authorities. By turning Jesus into a divine figure and focusing on salvation through faith in his death and resurrection, the apostles created a new religion that Jesus himself would not have recognized.

[@SmalltimR]

1. Jesus did not claim this or that 2. According to what source? 3. According to my source It's nothing but pointless and meaningless banter

[@shaunholt8448]

Much like your reply, or indeed my own.