Did my TERRIBLE writing get better?

[@WordsCanBeLikeXRays]

I have no idea why this channel doesn't have over 100k subs. They consistently put out usable and eye-opening writing advice in a format that invites me to truly understand. Please keep it up. Just amazing insight and content.

[@kitachinita]

"I've added a single word so far." --- This is the most relatable feeling

[@SarahMcAshan]

In terms of POV and frame of reference I think the problem you're describing with Tim's scene is what Peter Selgin calls "default omniscient" because the writer hasn't decided which character's consciousness they want to prioritize. (The book in which he discusses this is called Your First Page and it's very interesting)

[@MrNoucfeanor]

When Shawn said he's nearly 60 years old my jaw dropped. Dude looks amazing for his age!

[@LadyMemenstein]

I love this so much, because it shows how hard writing actually is. You just sit there staring at the blank page, and for some reason, words don't want to come at all. Even when you know what you want to write.

[@ChromaticTempest]

Framing is a massive part to if I enjoy a book. The best writers use POV and framing to tell better stories, or more complete stories, if that makes sense.

[@sueploeger8016]

I was surprised when you ended up staring at the page for two minutes, in despair, having started and stopped with "John........" I just wanted to give you a hug. I would have imagined you, instead, starting with your miserable first draft (aren't they all), and figuring out what the 5 commandments were, what was missing, what was weak. Setting up the tent poles, so to speak. Figuring out some ideas for escalating progression of conflict. The scene infrastructure first. Then figuring out why this scene is (someone's) worst nightmare. But that's just me. I love the Story Grid method. It's so methodical, with checklists, roadmaps, all the things that help me understand my characters, their arcs and the plot. BTW, Romancing the Beat / by Gwen Hayes is a wonderful. short book for those of us that don't normally write romances. I'm on my first novel (after 20 yrs. of screenwriting), and to my surprise, I have 4 romances in different stages of the romance arc. Oh, crap. 😜 Hang in there.

[@cutwir3317]

33:10 I think what’s missing from frame of reference is :Third person Objective -Combine: how it combines with limited or remains an independent objective sentence or paragraph - focus shifts: sentences or paragraphs break that shift to either the next character or shifts the topic Objectively and limited - I hope this wasn’t misleading and if anyone is out there please correct me

[@stevensandersauthor]

The first draft was a snooze. The second draft is vastly improved. The conflict, tension, and narrative drive are there now. However, John comes off as such a jerk, so self-centered, that readers might turn their backs on him for good. It’s the opposite of the Save the Cat theory, in which the protagonist does something kind early in the story so the reader will believe in them and stick with them. After this scene, it will take some doing to redeem John in the reader’s mind.

[@askarsfan2011]

I must say I was also very confused about who the main character of the scene was. It may help to insert more of John's inner monologue if it's his POV. Describe what he's thinking, feeling, experiencing, and observing around him as the scene is happening. What does he think about his client, his meeting, his pitch, the coffee shop, the coffee, Louise? What are John's emotional stakes here? Why is this meeting so important? What happens if it doesn't go well? Also it would help with the characters' chemistry if John noticed at least one personal thing about Louise, even if it's just something physical. Characters can pursue their own agendas and still notice each other in a meaningful way (especially if you hope to build a romantic relationship between them). Plus John needs to have a truly drastic reason for leaving Louise the way he did, even if it's a reason that only the audience learns in the moment (e.g., if John doesn't get to the meeting, he'll get fired or lose his business). Dramatic conflict is good, but not if it makes the audience deeply dislike the characters in the opening scene of a story. The scene paints John as a selfish jerk and Louise as a hapless victim. It's hard to see how this encounter can possibly lead to friendship much less romance later. I don't know what kind of romance novel you intend to write, but in most the main characters are flawed yet still decent people who don't just walk out on an injured person and a mess they are responsible for. Frankly, I would write the scene from Louise's POV since her situation is so much more relatable and interesting than John's. Her sister's sick, she has to use machines she doesn't understand to save their small business, and then an impatient jerk walks in, adds insult to injury, and makes her regret not becoming a lawyer like her parents always wished. See, there's a funny story already in there, but probably not if it starts with the POV of an obnoxious jerk who has nothing else going for him. So start with frazzled Louise, leave her in a lurch, then switch to John in the next chapter and have him reflect on what he thought of the encounter, and how he feels about his actions, and what plans he comes up with to apologize later (and how his flaws will once again get in the way of his intentions). Getting deeper insight into his life problems and personality traits while outside the coffee shop and away from poor Louise will help the audience understand him better and mitigate his behavior. I recommend reading more romance novels to get a better sense of how they work, including how to maintain and when to switch between the main characters' POVs. I recommend Jayne Ann Krentz. Her romantic suspense novels are great. Even men enjoy them.

[@mariaholmdahl9949]

Great idea! I don't read romance, but in the rom-coms my family and "friends" have dragged me to it seems like the norm for the leading man to make a bad first impression.

[@BbGun-lw5vi]

You’re right. The switch in POV would work much better for this romance. It would also do what Tim wanted which is to show how others perceive John but he can’t see about himself.

[@sasaadamek1633]

This long-form deep dive content is sooo good! I enjoyed this and learned a lot, thanks!

[@SarahMcAshan]

Italo Calvino died in 1985. Highly recommend If on a Winter's Night a Traveller. Overall great references here; this is a very helpful overview, thanks, Shawn. And many thanks as always to Tim for being the lab monkey!

[@tondemonaiyatsuu]

This was a feast to watch. Thank you so much for taking the time to share these invaluable knowledge with us! Hats off to you!

[@_g_r_u_m_p]

This is packed full of info! Thanks for sharing.

[@jessw4350]

Wow thank you for this insight! Point of view was always so confusing for me but this helped clear up my understanding of it!

[@DrMadlenZiege]

Thanks for part two. Learned tons about the point of view of writing and just realized, that my childrens I am working on right now is written in third person limited.

[@suvilienee]

Will this series continue, I have really been waiting for more, this is spectacular! :)

[@dreamslayer2424]

As soon as I realized the unexpected turn in the video, I paused it - and went to grab food and a notebook and left my phone in another room, so I would not be disturbed!.

[@ckeithray]

Many romance novels have two viewpoint characters, using first-person for each, or third-person for each. Rarely, the same scene is told twice, using each of the two viewpoints. more often the scenes are only told through one viewpoint. Sometimes a PORTION of a scene is told twice.

[@starklingspars8956]

The title of this vid and thumbnail picture made me laugh, and I needed a laugh 😅 My feedback reading it ( at 4:40 before watching whole vid) is ......if you're interested, keep reading, but with this caveat that I think all drafts improve and deepen with going of over them later a few times ( or more than a few in my experience) so I am not judging that this isn't feeling complex or specific enough yet to make me forget I'm reading. Sometimes the little nuggets that make the writing feel authentic come later imho. What I thought if you want a fresh opinion as I didn't read the other videos version yet. I just listened to the video. I find the omniscient pov odd where it says " she shot him a nasty look, but he didn't notice" and wonder why close third isn't used. . Also I love foam and made coffee for years and if people bother to say they wanted X and didn't get it, they want to wait for it. So like, what I would have done there, since it's the guy's pov and he noticed that, I would have put in his guess as to why she changed her mind. His inner frustration as she waits for the girl to top up her coffee with fresh foam ( or redo it) would be realistic and give him time to analyse her To me, I'd change my mind about no longer requiring more foam because I wished I hadn't have said anything...but I'd be feeling embarrassed that I did and kind of chatter vervousky and overcompensate by overexplaining why it really doesn't matter and I'd have that be her personality and I'd have the guy think " What a weirdo, or what an anal retentive so and so to mention it or what on earth happened to her to mmake her so nervous and want to want help her but he feels a little guilty all he cares about is his caffeine fix and sitting down because his new shoes hurt his feet or something. Like I would want some deepen8ng of pov and complexity and unique specificty to these characters. " Edit ...Watching a bit more. At 5:25 you said you wanted it to feel like he's waiting in line and thinking "Ok, one person and I'm through". I would have put that in narrative: "Okay, one person and he's through." At 6:32 Why are you saying that "I have in my mind that ge used to be a barrista but obviously I can"tvsay that on the page". Why not? If it's in his head then the reader us allowed to know it. At 7:53 I like how you had him the cause of the "hurricance"

[@ariesmarsexpress]

Now this has peaked my interest. Now, I want to write a coffee shop scene into my existing story where a co-worker is in the coffee shop with one partner of my existing couple. She has been there every day for a week waiting for her to order and knows what she is going to get. She knows what time she will show up and already orders her coffee under her intended's name plus her own. By now she knows the girl behind the counter, a hopeless romantic that will do anything for attention, who happily calls out the name at exactly the right time to cause the two to come together to figure it out. There is zero chance the intended will fall, but she loves the attention of the much younger woman which she has been enjoying for the past 30 minutes when her wife walks in right on schedule for their date today. Strangely enough the above is how I map out a story, then I go back and write it. The story comes first.👆 Then the writing:👇 The aroma of freshly ground coffee beans filled the air, a comforting embrace on a chilly autumn morning. Tsuki, nestled in a corner table, engrossed in her book, reveled in the quiet hum of the coffee shop. A familiar figure, Anya, her bubbly co-worker, entered the shop. Their eyes met, and Anya flashed a wide grin, a touch of mischief in her eyes. For the rest of the week, Anya's presence became a daily ritual. Tsuki observed her subtle surveillance, her arrival timed perfectly to coincide with Tsuki's own. She watched as Anya chatted with the barista, a young woman with a penchant for romantic gestures. One day, the barista's cheerful voice cut through the cafe's ambiance, "Tsukianya!" Two heads turned simultaneously, a shared moment of confusion followed by realization. Tsuki, a knowing smile playing on her lips, approached the counter. Anya, a playful blush dusting her cheeks, trailed behind. "Well, this is a surprise," Tsuki remarked, taking the steaming cup from the barista. "Just a little something to brighten your day," Anya replied, her gaze lingering on Tsuki. Tsuki savored the gesture, the warmth of the coffee mirroring the warmth spreading through her chest. She had enjoyed Anya's youthful exuberance, the innocent flirtation a harmless distraction. But now, a new warmth entered the cafe. Hana, her wife, walked in, her smile as radiant as the morning sun. Anya's eyes widened, recognition dawning. Tsuki met Hana's gaze, a silent apology mingling with amusement. Hana approached, her eyes twinkling with understanding. "Tsukianya?" she echoed, a playful lilt in her voice. "A little co-worker appreciation," Tsuki explained, squeezing Hana's hand. Anya, sensing the shift in the atmosphere, excused herself, a hint of disappointment clouding her cheerful demeanor. Tsuki watched her go, a pang of guilt mixing with relief. The attention had been flattering, but her heart belonged to Hana. She turned back to her wife, a promise in her eyes. "Ready for our date?" Tsuki asked, her voice laced with love. Hana's smile bloomed. "Always," she replied, her hand finding Tsuki's, their fingers intertwining. Sometimes things just don't work out. lol

[@minividpro1231]

This is very helpful. Thanks.

[@abeearoundapomegranate5333]

The reason Hunger Games felt so intimate and immmediate is because the reader is in Katniss' head for most of the book. Katniss isn't telling the reader the story, the reader is LIVING her story. You can do it in Third Person. It's called Deep POV - and, just FYI, most people say Deep POV is exclusively a style of Third Person Limited, and that First Person Limited is inherently Deep, which I don't agree with, BUT WHATEVER. ANYWAY, you remove the narrative structures that distance the reader from the character, and let them experience things as the character experiences them. Third Person Deep is used in genres like romance a lot, especially ones with dual POV (usually the romantic leads), because it allows the reader to forge an intimate connection with both of them. I highly recommend you check it out! Lisa Hall-Wilson writes a LOT about Deep POV.

[@sophielezama4068]

Excellent video!

[@epiphoney]

Shawn's idol is Paul Giamati's character in The Holdovers, lol. I don't think the first draft was that bad, but something can always get better on the spectrum.

[@nikoletta_]

38:22 I have a question that is related to that. So, how do we handle dual protagonists when it comes to POVs? (I'm writing a screenplay so i guess the answer might be a bit different for fiction writing...)

[@askarsfan2011]

Most romance novels are written in third person multiple with characters taking turns telling differerent parts of the story. It's basically a he said, she said (sometimes a side character or a villain said) kind of situation.

[@MrNoucfeanor]

I personally prefer a first person limited pov for romance to read. If done right, it's so much more intimate and captivating. Just my humble opinion!

[@Zaites]

I have a question now, if 3rd person limited/multiple or omniscient is someone else re-telling the events that happened, we, as writers, can never put a preset tense verbs in the narration right? Or can we use present? because what I see is that I have a consistent 3person multiple POV, but in the middle I move from present to past multiple times too, is that wrong?

[@maver1cs384]

Excellent Video Thanks again

[@TS4072]

Here's my 5C writing practice for the Lovers Meet Scene: INCITING INCIDENT: John enters a coffee shop, hurriedly aiming to grab his coffee and then meet his contact. COMPLICATION: John finds himself unable to order his coffee due to a homeless woman engaging Louise in a tirade about the exploitation of third-world coffee growers by coffee companies. It seems the woman won't cease her rant anytime soon. TURNING POINT / ACTION: Louise makes direct eye contact with John, seemingly asking for his help to deal with this lunatic woman. CRISIS / JOHN'S BEST BAD CHOICE: CHOICE 1: Ignore the woman and wait for her to finish her rant, risking late for his meeting? CHOICE 2: Offer the woman a $5 bribe to step aside so John can place his order and get on his way? CLIMAX: John kindly offers the woman the $5 bill, convincing her to step aside. She takes the money and leaves the shop looking victorious. RESOLUTION: John pays cash for his two coffees, receives a paper receipt from Louise with a 'Thank You!' note including her phone number, which he ignores, crumpling it up and stuffing it into his pocket.

[@GreggMikulla]

This is too hard. Did Dostoevsky have to learn all this stuff?

[@DDubovsky]

Kudos for hanging it all out there, Tim, for the sake of the demonstration. Sorry for the tough love, but I have to agree with several of the prior comments; although... I wonder if the scene is greatly downplayed for the sake of the process itself. The changes made aren't any worse, or better than the first draft; they're just different. You've a reasonable command of the language and demonstrated skill with fiction writing. However, there's no chemistry at all in either scene. No internal conflict based on even a surprise or unwanted attraction. There are lots of missed opportunities in both scenes. John is an unsympathetic character and by the time he walks out, I'm just hoping he gets run over by a bus. Louise is painted as completely inept, when she could be depicted as concerned for or distracted by her sister's well being. If we're going for an enemies-to-lovers trope, it's a reasonable start, but you've done the characters (and yourself) a disservice. What motivates the MC to violate this woman's personal space and then turn around and leave her with what is essentially second or third degree burns? Why does Louise need to come across as totally inept? I think it's okay for the scene to end on a sour note, but as readers, we need to see what prompts and motivates those actions aside from he's-a-jerk, and she's-a-stooge. They're people. They need to feel and not just act on your impulses. Kinda can't wait to see where all of this ends up. (For now, I'm still voting for the bus... :) Good luck!

[@StephanNeururer]

Just my 5 cents -- but I don´t think you like the scene and -- or - the genre that much. I don´t even think you like these two main characters in the scene. So why not write something you really, really care for? Something that burns inside you, something you HAVE to write. Cut to -- this scene from "Walk the Line" kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZCxgmyvirZpmbs

[@martinmaenza5513]

I have to agree here as well.

[@annavernick1490]

thanks for the reminder, that scene is a blowout!

[@mariaholmdahl9949]

This reminds me why I don't read romance. I can't stand either of the characters.

[@gabuko_web_studio]

It's a badly written piece, neither characters are appealing. Romance and romantasy can have great characters and story, just have to find the better material.

[@aix83]

Sorry, it really doesn't sound like a romance. It sounds like romance written by someone who is uncomfortable with romance. POV shouldn't be consistent, it needs to be stable (1,st, 2nd, 3rd) and vary in depth with peaks for emotional beats and lows for pushing the story forward. It's not the tense that does this, it's the level of detail felt by the POV character. The exact same effect can be obtained regardless of person, it's just that first-present helps writers do unconsciously the deep POV they would otherwise have to do on purpose.

[@annavernick1490]

that sounds like a good first draft, to make it ist person limited, then use the detail if wanting to change to third peson limited, to keep deep POV?

[@ellengill360]

I'm not just talking about you, but everyone, all writers, editors, coaches, film and television producers when I wonder if the requirement to create and maximize conflicts and hurricanes makes writers create nastier characters than necessary. Does everyone have to be a jerk? Your protagonist went from being basically okay to burning the barista and saying the mess he created wasn't his problem. Yikes. Is the creation of nasty, sarcastic, uncaring protagonists affecting society negatively?

[@LaserLady]

I agree. Fatal flaws don't have too be selfish, jerky, and horrible. Maybe a protagonist like this could be hurry to get his coffee cuz he has a performance review at work, but he ran out of coffee at home, needs this asap, yadda yadda, burns the barista but is so shocked he burnt her, he leaves the coffee and runs out of there in a panic. There's a million ways it could go, but that would open up a question of why was he so bold, but choked up when he hurt her? How will she react when he comes back? Will he come back or run into her elsewhere? CAN he apologize? This is a SUPER fun exercise! I learn so much from this channel.

[@c.michlschneider3928]

I prefer to think of ways to create tension, rather than conflict. Sometimes characters just need to work together, but the fear of whether someone is able/willing to do their part is far more fascinating to me than “how nasty do I need to be?”

[@Jonaelize]

I'm sorry, this video didn't give me that much. I always know that I'm enjoying writing and reading third person limited. So, the rest doesn't interest me. I had hoped the feedback would go more into the details of your piece instead it rambled about general things and perspectives. But I think your 2nd draft is better. Only that you overshot it and John turned out to be a mansplaining jerk.

[@babavee100]

I am not a writer. I am a reader and a copious one. the very reason you exist. I can tell you what is wrong with your writing. I don't know what is going on, and can't be bothered to wade through all the preamble until you come to the point. All this 'fluff' when a writer is soothing his ego, by writing flowery prose and creating an opening scene which nobody gives a damn about, is so obvious. If it doesn't' 'grab' our attention from the start, then we put it back on the booksellers shelf and find something that does. Have you any idea how much books cost these days? If one starts badly, why should we assume it is going to get any better? In a nutshell; i don't care if she is out of milk or what her nails look like, nor am I intersted in his tie, unlass it is going to strangle him..Subtext will tell us what we need to know. we do not need to be spoonfed. or bored to tears by over excessive descriptic dialoque..

[@feruspriest]

Do you read romance?

[@TheTimeOfThePlace]

First off ‘John’ is a garbage person, he is not a good POV, I can’t believe how much I dislike him, this is going to be a terrible story and I can’t believe you guys are talking about something so inane