Did the American Cheetah Cause the Pronghorn to get Faster?

[@BFKAnthony817]

Closer related to goats? I thought it was a member of Giraffidae along with the Giraffes.

[@vincentx2850]

It's not a Giraffidae, but in its own family which is the sister group of Giraffidae

[@beastmaster0934]

It’s not a giraffid, but it is part of the Giraffoid superfamily. which combined Giraffidae, along with the pronghorn family group, Antilocapridae.

[@BFKAnthony817]

@@beastmaster0934 Ah that must be what I meant it was part of the Giraffoid superfamily. Thanks for the correction.

[@RaptorChatter]

Not giraffidae, but in my vert zoo class which was mostly focused on local animals including pronghorn they used the goat as the example of it being closer to that than deer so that we wouldn't make that mistake. From what I'm seeing there's still some debate, and it could still be equally close to goats and giraffes. But some do put pronghorn closer to giraffes. Since that wasn't the focus of the video I just didn't double check like I should have. Rest of the video should still be good though!

[@vincentx2850]

I would say goats and antelopes are equally distantly related to the pronghorns, and one could even say goats are a special type of antelope. And although pronghorn's closest living relatives are giraffe and okapi, it's not a Giraffid, but in its own family Antilocapridae.

[@professorpine7374]

It is a still a giraffoid, however

[@patreekotime4578]

One of the common names for pronghorn is American antelope.

[@SoulDelSol]

@@patreekotime4578 or the short necked American giraffe. 🦒 jk

[@RaptorChatter]

Yep, that was my mistake. When learning about them in my vert zoology class they had mentioned them being closer to goats,rather than actual antelope. Which I am now realizing I either misremembered or they were mistaken. The rest of the information should be good though.

[@TalesofKaimere]

I'd be curious to know how far back this evolutionary relationship goes. There are many extinct pronghorn (Antilocapridae) that from what I could tell have comparable adaptations for cursoriality to modern species going back into the early Miocene, yet Barnett et al (2005) suggested a common ancestor between the American cheetah and cougars only 3 million years ago. The pronghorn/Miracinonyx relationship may have just pressured an already cursorial pronghorn to get faster, being only a late chapter in the story of pronghorn speed. Maybe there were other swift predators in North America that pushed this relationship with Miocene and Pliocene pronghorns. Aelurodon perhaps?

[@NormanF62]

The American cheetah evolved to escape competition with other predators by becoming a sprinter specialist instead of an ambush hunter. Evolutionary pressures drove it in that direction. But they also led to its eventual extinction. Success is a two-edged sword.

[@WmJared]

American Lion: Haha I stole your food American Cheetah: *starves to death from multiple pressures including lion* American Lion: Where'd the free meals go, I can't catch these punks, whew American Lion: *starves*

[@PlainsPup]

Pronghorn are the last surviving members of their own family, the Antilocapridae. As pecoran ruminants, their next closest relatives are the giraffids (giraffe and okapi). They are more distantly related to other pecorans, like the bovids (antelope, goats, and cattle), cervids (deer family), and moschids (musk deer).

[@mugwugthemagnificful]

One of the few possible cryptids the onza ,was described by the Spanish as being a long legged 'lion'/puma with strange coloration,eg stripes or spots, Montezuma supposedly had tigers/jaguars , lions/pumas and onzas another type of lion.

[@patreekotime4578]

Likely just a local cougar subspecies. Even today, cougars (and bobcats and coyote) have alot of variety in their size and coloration in their different ranges. The Eastern Cougar which is supposedly smaller than the Western Cougar is regarded as either extinct or to have never been a true subspecies at all... despite sightings continuing to occur in the Appalacians. If that kind of uncertainly exists in the US with well documented species, then I suppose it would hold true moreso even in Central America with a subspecies that may also be extinct or at least just as elusive as the Eastern Cougar!

[@AdrianneJH]

Jaguarundi

[@erichtomanek4739]

I still remember when the American Cheetah was known as Felis trumani. A nice example of Convergent Evolution with the African and Asian Cheetahs.

[@callummoore2743]

Just thinking about how coevolution might have shaped the behaviour/physiology of modern day animals...what about the grizzly bear? For a top carnivore it seems especially aggressive, and I know to an extent all apex carnivores are but after listening to a lot of bear attack podcasts (Tooth and Claw for the interested) it seems like they attack people just to neutralise them as a potential threat and not necessarily to eat. It reminded me of how super aggressive sloth bears are as a response to evolving beside tigers and leopards, I wonder if the grizzly bear evolved a similar, 'honey badger'-esque mentality as a response to American lions, smilodon, short-faced bears, etc. Just something to think about

[@robertroche671]

Cheetahs (both present and ancient) seem to occupy a tough niche. Constantly bullied by larger predators for their kills.

[@DoomZzx]

American cheetahs were bigger built and stronger than African cheetahs

[@vincentx2850]

I think despite their slower speed, big cats in general can still be very effective pronghorn predators. Compared to ungulates, cats excel in acceleration, and their instantaneous speed can be extremely fast due to their flexible spines. This is reflected in the prey composition of modern big cats. Lions in Etosha prey heavily on the much faster springbok, especially during years when other preys are scarce and can account for more than 50% of their diet. In southwest Wyoming pronghorn is an important prey of puma, representing more than 10% of their diet, and most of those are adults.

[@bkjeong4302]

This. Large cats (save cheetahs and Miracinonyx) don’t rely on outrunning their prey-they ambush their prey.

[@vincentx2850]

Miracinonyx actually isn't even that specialized for speed, it's just a relatively long legged puma

[@allangardiner2515]

Excellent exposition! Thanks.

[@DrummerDaddio]

Cheetahs? In North America? It's more likely than you'd think.

[@kevinwebster7868]

Science is so afraid of certainty. Yes the American Cheetah was the pressure that made Pronghorns fast. There is no other reason for them being so fast unless we discover an extinct species of grass that ran at 98kph.

[@Harveywhite209]

It’s definitely not the cheetah, but I’m not gonna tell you why I absolutely know that

[@hexagod1313]

please do I'm curious or was this a joke? I'm confused@@Harveywhite209

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

This was just so cool just to know why Pronghorn are still fast

[@mrnickbig1]

If by "closely related to goats" you mean closely related to giraffes.

[@lynnhayes2363]

In some ways, pronghorn are more like wildebeast than some of the other African antelope. They can run at very high speed for great distances. None of the predators seem to be able to keep up with this.

[@patreekotime4578]

I keep thinking about this video. One of the interesting things about the cougar is that the extant species have the largest hind legs in proportion to thier bodies of living big cats. This makes them capable jumpers. So within the cougar lineage, you already have these very long limbs. And these animals would have been competing with a host of large cat species like Smilodon, Homotherium, Xenosmilus, giant jaguars, and atrox. It is kind of wild to think of the Americas having once been more like modern Africa with many species either related to or convergent to species that today we usually associate with Africa. An extremely diverse and competitive environment that eventually gave way to a much lower diversity of large fauna.

[@RaptorChatter]

Yep, and there's actually been some study on that recently. Haven't read the paper yet, but hopefully the research will be spread to other areas.

[@jthomas8263]

Callaghan, 😁🇦🇷🦖 A new Carnivorous Dinosaur species dating back 90 Million Years Ago discovered in Argentina,

[@shinywarm6906]

Excellent presentation of fascinating research. As humans escalate our destruction of ecosystems, we'll be seeing more and more assemblages that only make sense in terms of organisms that are no longer extant - landscapes of loss and extermination

[@robrice7246]

Do you think a Cheetah/Cougar hybrid is possible and would it resemble its extinct form?

[@BFKAnthony817]

That is an interesting thought experiment. But are the Cheetah and Cougar able to hybridize due to being from different genera? It is not like Panthera species which are able to hybridize with each other but house cats often breed with a Lynx or Bobcats. Hell, my grandmother had a hybrid with a bobcat in the 80's it was cool as hell. We started noticing a LOT more cats around here with shorter tails lol. The father of the female cat we had Must have been getting with most of the stray cats in our area.

[@bkjeong4302]

It has been argued before that Miracinonyx wasn’t a cheetah analogue. That claim can be put to rest.

[@vincentx2850]

I would say it proves the opposite. The isotope study shows it does not prey exclusively on pronghorns exclusively. Other studies have shown it preys heavily on goats in mountainous areas

[@bkjeong4302]

@@vincentx2850 That also applies to actual cheetahs, which hunt things besides fast-running ungulates in mountainous areas. So that only furthers the comparison.

[@vincentx2850]

@@bkjeong4302 But Miracinonyx is not as cursorial. It has fully retractable claws, and the limb proportion is right in between a puma and a cheetah. And that is basically what it is: something in between a cheetah and a puma, faster than the puma while being a better climber and grappler than the cheetah. Also, I don't recall cheetah living in truly rugged terrains - Miracinonyx lived in the grand canyon of all places and where it feeds primarily on mountain goats.

[@bkjeong4302]

@@vincentx2850 Cheetahs DO live in rugged terrain as well as open grasslands, though; it's just that the populations in those places are endangered due to humans, and are never shown in documentaries, so most people fail to understand just how adaptable cheetahs are when it comes to habitat. And Miracinonyx was not found ONLY in the Grand Canyon, it was widely distributed across much of North America. Like the cheetah, it was an animal that could survive in both open country AND in rugged terrain and did so. You're assuming that cheetahs are only found in open terrain and that Miracinonyx was only found in rugged terrain, even though both animals live/d in both habitats. You're also ignoring that there are actually two Miracinonyx species, one living later than the other; it's the older M. inexpectatus that was intermediate in anatomy as you assume, and its descendant M. trumani was much more cheetah-like in anatomy.

[@vincentx2850]

That's totally not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that the American cheetah is not as specialized as the modern cheetah in terms of their cursorial capacity, and this should be reflected in our understanding of the animal

[@Robboa1]

The pronghorn is fast over distance, whereas cats are sprinters. There’s no reason to evolve the ability to go flat out for 5 km when the chase is over in 400 m. Rather, a pursuit predator, that can give chase in teams is a more likely driver of the pronghorn’s ability. The predator would have to be a good middle distance runner, and also be intelligent enough to get organized for a chase, suggesting something more wolf-like.

[@jamemule5326]

True

[@pt5728]

@@jamemule5326well American cheetahs weren’t the only thing hunting pronghorns, dire wolves would be another predator

[@joshdewitt8796]

@@pt5728Grey Wolves and Coyotes would also be regular predators.

[@lovepeople777]

Wait there was an American cheetah!?

[@RaptorChatter]

Kinda, not directly related to the modern cheetah, but with a lot of the same adaptations.

[@DownhillAllTheWay]

The African cheetah is quite lightweight and not particularly aggressive when compared with other African cats like the leopard. I didn't know there was an American cheetah equivalent - but it is extinct now. If a cat trades power for speed, does that mean that the writing is on the wall for the African cheetah as well - that speed is not a species-saving strategy of evolution? I believe I read somewhere, a long time ago (many years) that all cheetahs have a congenital defect of the eye orbit, which proves that the entire population is related back to a single, individual cheetah somewhere in the mists of time?

[@RaptorChatter]

Not sure totally about them being singled out by extinction only because of speed. It's a perfectly viable strategy in the right conditions, certain falcons, and certain fish have been swimming fast and catching prey for tens of millions of years. The modern cheetah is mostly because there's a population bottleneck. Very few crossed the Sinai peninsula into Africa, meaning there is a lot of inbreeding in their populations, and genetically, they're likely going to die out, unless some new mutations show up in the very near future, which could address those issues. Not familiar enough with their genetics to say if it's all from one individual though, sorry.

[@Riprattle]

Goats are antelopes. The PRONGHORN IS CLOSEST TO GIRAFFES!

[@pt5728]

Cheetah and American cheetah lineages aren’t really spoken about. Yes cheetahs and American cheetahs aren’t strongly related but cheetahs are more related to them than they are any other cat. Puma ancestors travelled into America through Eurasia, then eventually migrated went back through Eurasia and into Africa. Evolving into the cheetah. American and African cheetahs were related, their relation just isn’t the reason for their similarities

[@Xenite_51]

…..pronghorn are VERY dumb. They will purposefully try going under fences and get their horns caught instead of jumping over them when they easily could. They crack me up 🤣. We’ve got them in north central and western Kansas and they’re quite entertaining to watch.

[@RaptorChatter]

Yeah, fences really are good at tripping up animals, because fences are such a new thing to them. It makes sense though. If jumping over a large bush they'd want to see where they were landing, so they'd have that instinct to go under instead to avoid an injury. And then fences don't bend the way bushes do, so they get stuck.

[@patreekotime4578]

I like this idea but the conclusions of the research seems iffy. It feels like there is just way too much uncertainty about identifying the prey species. The fast predator and the fast prey species line up... but saying for sure that one caused the other, or perhaps that they caused each other sounds very difficult to prove.

[@RaptorChatter]

I think at some point we'll be able to get a lot of evidence that it could have been the case, but never a definite relationship between the two happening.

[@joeybulford5266]

If I remember correctly I do think predators are usually the driving force of prey adaptations and evolution.

[@eljanrimsa5843]

For a really convincing argument we would need a series of intermediary forms where we could see how both co-evolved to become faster at around the same time.

[@bigvick1989]

funny for me how everything or most things are bigger in America xD

[@Harveywhite209]

I find it especially ironic that a channel titled “raptor” chatter can’t come up with any better explanation for why the pronghorn runs so fast and for so long. Cheetahs, while indeed fast, are sprinters only, and your pronghorn can run marathons at those speeds