Did the Navy ABANDON the Marines at Guadalcanal??? | History Traveler Episode 402

[@TravB1988]

My Uncle, Thomas Lawrence is one of the thousands still serving on his ship in iron bottom sound. Thomas went down with his ship LST-342. You are not forgotten Uncle Tommy 🇺🇸

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

🇺🇸

[@marks1638]

RIP.

[@retiredguyadventures6211]

I have an uncle that died from a Kamakazi attack during the Battle of Okinawa. He was serving om USS landing ship medium LSM-135.

[@myblasphemouslife9052]

😭❤️‍🩹

[@mfreund15448]

I am sorry for your families loss. Rest in peace.

[@marks1638]

My great uncle was on Guadalcanal, and he initially felt they'd been abandoned. But a series of lucky breaks saved them. Including the Japanese leaving behind large stores of food (though much of it became rotten after a few weeks), including rice, canned fish and vegetables, and of course everyone's favorite (Sake). That along with construction equipment, materials, and even intact buildings and shelters speed construction of the airfield well along. Allowing the Marines to not only protect themselves on land, plus have some long-range scouting and a certain amount of fighter cover from Japanese raids (ship and aircraft). Years later after they heard about the naval battles and losses by the Navy, they realized that Fletcher was being cautious due to shortages of ships and supplies, not cowardly. The Japanese had plenty of warships, aircraft, troops, and island bases to make the Marines and Navy's lives' very hard. It was only due to the many blunders by the Japanese in not pursuing overwhelming force on air, land, and sea that the Marines won the Battle for Guadalcanal. The Japanese did everything piecemeal and there was little cooperation between their Navy and Army. The Marines' command staff on the Canal worked with the other services to bring maximum effort to the fight and that was the winning formula. Cooperation and logistics, plus hard fighting Marines and Army troops on the ground.

[@pitsnipe5559]

My uncle Joe was wounded on Guadalcanal. Crippled him for life, but was extremely proud to have served as a Marine along with three of his brothers.

[@GoodLuckBP]

My Father inlaw was a Marine on Guadalcanal. He would never talk about it. He died just a few years ago. Rest in Peace.

[@allencampbell4460]

My father, who landed on the beach at Guadalcanal August 7th, 1942 believed the Navy did abandoned them. He said he witnessed the Naval battle of the Coral Sea from a small hill. He said the night sky was lit up with a multitude explosions, and he could hear the booms that seemed to go on for a long time.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

@@allencampbell4460 - That certainly would have been a site.

[@vtrack1963]

Your dad may have observed the various sea battles of Guadalcanal while he was there. The Battle of the Coral Sea occurred in May 1942 (more than 3 months prior to Guadalcanal). Coral Sea was fought in the open ocean (far from land) and was the first battle where the ships did not see each other. The Marines endured great hardship at Guadalcanal. They (including your Dad) were American Heroes. Many don’t realize that more sailors died defending Guadalcanal than Marines. Approximately 5000 sailors, 1769 Marines, and 420 US Airmen (Army) died. The sailors and airmen were also heroes.

[@allencampbell4460]

@vtrack1963 that would be my mistake, but he said it was a large Naval engagement the following night after he landed.

[@vtrack1963]

@ It’s easy to confuse the various actions. In any event, US sailors and marines at that time were fighting an enemy that was equal and even superior in many areas. The tenacity of the Marines on Guadalcanal was amazing. I’ve read many accounts of the Naval battles and the angst the Marines felt after the Naval losses that were not explained to them.

[@bennettrogers7921]

@@vtrack1963excellent reply, shows you are both a gentleman and a scholar. Not enough of those exist

[@bradmiller3367]

JD, I have been remiss, call it the busy Holiday Season if you like, in congratulating you on now OVER 400 episodes!! I learn something new with every episode and such knowledge is worth so much more than a simple ‘thank you’, but you do have my thanks and assurance that I will be here through the next 400!

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

@@bradmiller3367 - Appreciate that! Thank you.

[@plamannc]

My great uncle Lloyd Krueger was in the 132 Infantry Regiment, the Americal Division, that landed on Guadalcanal. He was a Company C scout and won a bronze star for his heroics. Never got to meet him but he is a hero to us all.

[@Ghostofachance-iw8pr]

My Dad (USMC 36-66) played poker the night before the invasion. He put over 350$in the ships safe. It's still an the bottom of Iron Bottom Bay. The Marines landed w 3 days rations, ammo, and gear. Lucky they found a rice and canned salmon. The black skin disguised the weevils in the rice. One of the Marines ate a monkey. I guess one really had to be there to know how the Real Marines felt. Pauliu and Tarawa were his last battle of WWII. Dad was the steam that pushed our family, Mom was the glue that held us together.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

@@Ghostofachance-iw8pr wow!

[@richardross7219]

My FIL, Swede, was there with an Army Ordinace Unit. They saw the battle of Savo Island. The Navy hadn't had adequate watches and training for a night battle so the bad guys sank a bunch of US ships. The supply ships had to scram. He said that they felt abandoned. He and some of his guys were able to salvage some things from partly sunk cargo ships. He said that food was so short that they did a bunch of fishing. They were so desparate that they killed and cooked a parrot. It was too tough to eat. They found a bunch of instant custard in with their supplies but it needed ice. Swede fixed up a refidgeration unit so that they could have the custard. He was on Guadalcanal until the end of the war. When his unit got back to Texas in the winter of 45 - 46 all of the guys were freezing. Swede was from Northern Minnesota but could not go home because he couldn't stand the cold.

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

A good presentation! Just a few things to add: Admiral Fletcher had a bad habit of being obsessed with the fuel capacity of the ships under him, so much so he'd picked up the nickname "Always Fueling Fletcher." He never seemed to stay around long enough to make a difference due to his constant worrying about fuel. Fletcher was one of the Navy's less-than-steller performers, his performance at the 'Canal didn't help his reputation at all and he finished the war in an administrative role. The Marines, rightly or wrongly, certainly felt they'd been abandoned. In fact after the Marine's relief by the Army and their move to Australia for rest and refit some of the higher-ranking Marine officers had a special campaign medal struck commemorating the "abandonment." How many were made and issued I'm not sure but there's one on display in the National Museum Of The Marine Corps in Quantico VA. On it there's an image of an arm with admiral's stripes dropping a hot potato into the hands of a Marine and the inscription "Faciat Georgus," Latin for "Let George do it!" The medal is suspended from a ribbon made of Marine dungeree shirt material. Just to add, if you're heading past Quantico on I-95 in Virginia stop in at the Marine Museum! Trust me, you'll have a ball!

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

@@wayneantoniazzi2706 thanks. Even starting at Parris Island boot camp, I was told don’t trust the navy as they will abandon you like Guadalcanal. This was 1985 and that perception had been passed down. It wasn’t until I started deeply studying the campaign I realized this wasn’t the actual case. One of many things I found to be incorrect in the popular perception of the campaign. Dave Holland

[@flight2k5]

@@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349 Marines are infamous for passing down myths to younger generations.

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

@@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349 Thanks for the response Mr. Holland! When I went through OCS and The Basic School the year after (1974, 1975) we certainly learned about Marine history but the Navy "abandonment" of the Marines on Guadalcanal was never mentioned. In fact I learned about it BEFORE joining the Corps from a superb history of WW2 titled "The GI War" by Ralph G. Martin. Told from the average enlisted guy's point of view and split into two parts, Europe and the Pacific, it's an amazing read. Try and find a copy if you can. (A certain amount of pride makes me want to say the Pacific part's the best but that'd be unfair!) Semper Fi Marine! It was an honor hearing from you!

[@jimtincher7357]

You don't understand how the Navy operates.... ships rarely go more than three days without refueling even today. This includes when they are "local steaming" in an op area.... Naval battles can last several days and when engaged they won't be refueling because they are then vulnerable to air and submarine attacks because they can't maneuver. So yes, he's refueling all the time when he can.

[@wayneantoniazzi2706]

@@jimtincher7357 Good points, but Fletcher's obsession with fuel must have been really overdone if his colleagues and contemporaries thought so. Think about that. I didn't give him the nickname, other naval officers did. Not trying to be a wise guy but I want to ask, are you a US Navy vet yourself? Both myself and Mr. Holland are former Marines. Just to add, in 1976 I was on an LPD, the USS Austin, which was part of a three ship convoy that sailed from Moorehead City NC to Norway. It took almost two weeks to get to Loch Ewe Scotland where we stopped to refuel. There was no stopping in mid-Atlantic to refuel, not us or the LST or the destroyer escort we had.

[@DefLeppardBug]

I'm still learning new things after 4 years so you're obviously doing something right JD! Another great video in the books.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

👍🏻

[@dave3156]

Dave Holland is the man when it comes to the history of Guadalcanal. Thx JD! Happy New Year!

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

100%

[@andymckane7271]

Very well said! When I was a young boy, less than 12 years old (late 1950's), I read a book or two (sorry that I can't remember their names) that accused the Navy (mainly "Terrible" Turner) of having abandoned the Marines at Guadalcanal. It wasn't until many years later while having a conversation with Lieutenant General Victor H. "Brute" Krulak, that I was given a first-rate education on the fact that the Navy---and then Rear Admiral Turner---had not abandoned the Marines on Guadalcanal. That conversation led to my reading Vice Admiral George C. Dyer's 2-volume biography of R.K. Turner, The Amphibians Came to Conquer: The Story of Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner by Vice Admiral George C. Dyer. Turner was a strategist. He well understood that winning battles and winning wars would cost the lives of Marines and soldiers. Admiral Turner had great respect and affection for both Marines and soldiers. Folks who need to understand any given battle need to consider that battle from both the tactical and, more importantly, strategic points of view. Thank you for this short but intelligent KZbin video clarifying the fact that the Navy (and naval leadership) had not abandoned the Marines at Guadalcanal. Someday we might consider what happened with the Marines and civilian construction workers at Wake Island. I suspect that anyone who studies the issue of Wake who understands strategy and the need to win the Pacific War and not "just" the battle for Wake and our Marines there, will understand why Wake was not relieved. As a former Navy corpsman, I think the world of every United States Marine I've ever known. Semper Fidelis, Marine! Andy McKane, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii, 29 December 2024.

[@Gitarzan66]

My dad served in the Navy during the entire war in the Pacific. I guarantee you that when those ships were ordered to leave, the sailors did not like that order one bit.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

No doubt.

[@johnfleet235]

I would trace the key problem back to Admiral Ghormley. He was the theater commander, but he never visited Marines and it seemed his heart was not into the campaign.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Fair criticism.

[@thomasdragosr.841]

@@TheHistoryUnderground I seem to recall that Ghormley had health problems that contributed to his absence. Maybe JD could enlighten us...

[@crazygame2724]

That's why Ghormley was replaced by Halsey..

[@MrFrikkenfrakken]

Dave Holland and all the vids he makes is simply captivating. The aircraft carriers and escorts were just more valuable an asset and after Savo Island Fletcher had to pull back to refuel and rearm. It looked bad to the ground troops but had to happen.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Dave is the man. His channel is a gift.

[@bennettrogers7921]

@@TheHistoryUnderground100% agree!!

[@johnfleet235]

I was recently reading about the 1944 and 1945 Pacific Campaigns. Everyone knows about the carrier battles and the various invasions, but few know about the "Logistics" needed for 1944 and 1945. The logistics infrastructure to support the Guadalcanal with constant flow of supplies did not exist.

[@MrFrikkenfrakken]

@@johnfleet235 'Operation Shoestring' in all phases.

[@KaoretheHalfDemon]

I would say yes and no. The Navy got its ass beat at sea and were forced to retreat so it wasn’t by choice the Marines got left behind. If the Navy actually abandoned the Marines they wouldn’t have come back at all. But thats just my opinion. The Japanese Navy definitely abandoned the Army because they hated each other.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Valid take.

[@nwmgnoe316]

No they did not get their ass beat , it was a victory for the navy , though at a heavy cost .

[@charlesreynolds5586]

At that time, the u.s. carriers didn't have enough fighters to protect the carriers and provide air cover to the transports. And the transports and cargo ships were in short supply so any loss to them could have been devastating.

[@thomasdragosr.841]

The cargo ships were also loaded badly so that essentials like ammo, food, and water came off the ship last. The Navy learned to "combat load" cargo as a result.

[@Rdibo24]

So exciting to see the Pacific locations! Thank you for taking the time to do this - please do a few more islands. The Pacific theatre of WWII does not get the recognition it deserves.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Glad that you’re enjoying it! And I agree. The Pacific doesn’t get near the attention that it deserves. Hoping that people will share these videos out with others.

[@genem3785]

Douglas Munro, United States Coast Guard, posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions at Point Cruz, Guadalcanal on September 27, 1942.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

We’ll be talking about Munro later in this series.

[@briancooper2112]

Dave Holland should write a book! Id buy it.

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

Thanks I have and it will be published in Oct next year. I also have a Facebook page by the same name as my posting name. I update it daily with Canal material .

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

I’ve got some good news for you. 🙂

[@briancooper2112]

@TheHistoryUnderground what news?

[@briancooper2112]

@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349 I'm blind. I can use my software for blind on utube not fb. I look forward to buying and reading your book.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

@ - Book should be out late next year.

[@rgerca1593]

Those intro clips are stunning JD. With the drops etc. Great stuff!

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Thanks!

[@WildGeese4Peace]

My uncle was in this battle, Pvt Charles Byrant, who was wounded with severe head wound at the age of 17. He would never talk about this battle and died when he was 42. He suffered from this head wound until his death.

[@jay76ny]

If you haven't read Neptune's Inferno, I would highly, highly recommend it. It focuses specifically on the Naval actions in the Guadalcanal Campaign and goes into great detail about what it was like to be fighting aboard ship in this time.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

On my list.

[@Ceetizzle]

I heard this myth pretty much my entire career in Marine Corps. I can't speak for every Marine I came in contact with, but most of us knew it was more of a delay in support than anything else.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

@@Ceetizzle - Dave was telling me the same thing. It’s a myth that has been drilled into some Marines starting in boot camp.

[@forddon]

They teach this for a reason, first it's close enough to the truth and second this isn't the only time it happened. The lesson: You have to be up to the task, because you can't count on anyone but yourself

[@clarkbutler]

That sure sounded like an abandonment to me, and i guess i wouldn't write it down either, if it was me

[@Fahlahlah]

Dave's accent is an amazing mix of southern US and acquired Australian. Pretty cool sounding

[@ClancyWoodard-yw6tg]

I'm glad this was addressed because I was talking to a friend of mine about this battle and they were under the impression that it was like how troops were left on Bataan and I'm like those are two totally separate incidents because the Navy didn't abandon the Marines

[@Falcon47-47]

Thank you for the excellent video. I just started reading Guadalcanal; The Definitive Account of the Landmark Battle by Richard Frank. This is a well timed video for me as I just finished reading about the naval engagement at Savo in the early part of Frank's book. Looking forward to more videos.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Great choice. It's a fantastic book.

[@MarkWYoung-ky4uc]

This is what the Marine commander Gen. Alexander Vandegrift had to say about the Navy's role in the naval battle of Guadalcanal: "We believe the enemy has undoubtedly suffered a crushing defeat. We thank Admiral Kinkaid for his intervention yesterday. We thank Lee for his sturdy effort last night. Our own aircraft has been grand in its relentless hammering of the foe. All those efforts are appreciated but our greatest homage goes to Callaghan, Scott and their men who with magnificent courage against seemingly hopeless odds drove back the first hostile attack and paved the way for the success to follow. To them the men of Cactus lift their battered helmets in deepest admiration." (Wikipedia article "Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.") Both Rear Admirals Daniel Callaghan and Norman Scott were killed in the battle as well as the five Sullivan brothers that went down with the U.S.S. Juneau. Lee was Admiral Willis "Ching" Lee.

[@alonsocushing2263]

A very clear explanation Dave. Your old detecting mate from the Clarke Gang country.

[@brianking5092]

The Marines fought the Japanese in mostly night battles and did very well. The US Navy fought the Japanese Navy in night battles and, at least in the early battles, got their asses handed to them. This was the beginning of the war of attrition. Japan lost the initiative here and never regained it. Conversely, as the war progressed, the Navy would do better and the Marine casualties would worsen. My father was a Marine there. He didn't like being shelled at point blank range from Japanese ships. Until the day he died he had no problem with sailors but he had no use for the Navy. (Or McArthur, but that's a different story) Seen from his point of view I would never blame him for feeling this way. There are many sides to any story. Thanks for the video.

[@phunkeehone]

I'm European, so naturally I know more about what happened over here. I do know a little about the Pacific, though. It's definitely an interesting subject. And one thing is for sure.. Jungle warfare is very dirty business, and I surely wouldn't want to be there. Great video as always. And happy new year to everyone.

[@bender7565]

The documented case when Jerry Ford left those 3 young Marines behind during his Mayaguez fiasco broke my retired Navy heart and still pisses me off.

[@paulgrogan8032]

When I went Navy basic in San Diego most of the other recruits were hyper focused on our tasks. I was too, but I was also hypnotized by the fact that so many thousands of Sailors who died in surface ships,subs, and on the beach also trained on this very grinder.🙏⚓️🇺🇸

[@jimmyj422]

Regardless of the mistakes made at Guadalcanal the US through grit and determination prevailed. The victory at Guadalcanal stopped the Japanese expansion and started the march to Tokyo.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

👍🏻

[@Chris-Nico]

Excellent! Appreciate Dave Holland explanations… thank you JD and Dave. RIP to all the US Navy and Marines who gave their lives at Guadalcanal 🇺🇸💪

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

👊🏻

[@batboy555]

Which bad option do you take?

[@Wreckdiver59]

It sounds to me like the navy had their own battles to fight. Looking into the battle of Savo Island, there were a lot of things that adversely affected the outcome.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

@@Wreckdiver59 definitely

[@NDB469]

This is really informative and interesting.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

👍🏻

[@jackfennessy5465]

My Dad was on Guadalcanal with the 11th Marines. The biggest and baldest enemy was not the Japanese. It was malaria and dysentery.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Awful environment to fight in.

[@johnnyg3166]

Look at the total casualties the marines suffered versus the navy in the Guadalcanal campaign. That should give you your answer

[@mikearmstrong8483]

Awful lot of people who know nothing about strategic situations are commenting the navy abandoned them. Backed up by some whose great great grand uncle's third cousin's boyfriend was there and thought so too. If the navy had abandoned them, that would have been the last they would have seen of the navy. The navy was forced to withdraw in the face of a serious threat, but continued attempts to gain area superiority and to resupply when possible. Then returned when it was possible to do so without the risk of losing the last carrier forces we had in theater. Would the marines have been happier to see the navy get wiped out sacrificing themselves before the marines were overrun? People need to learn the definition of the word "abandoned".

[@nnoddy8161]

More sailors from the USN and RAN died in the Solomon campaign than marines. This should not be forgotten!

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Agreed.

[@PaulDouglasDouglas97]

Really enjoyed the video mate can't wait for the next one

[@WilliamPatience-ic8st]

The Americans were using older ships because of Pearl harbor. The Japanese lost their carrier fleet but still had their battleships and heavy cruisers running the slot.

[@terryeustice5399]

Great documentary of the Marines thinking they were abandoned at Guadalcanal. The Navy was obviously reorganizing their position.

[@thomasking4136]

Way more sailors were lost in that fight than marines. Fair winds and following seas to my shipmates forever on watch.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

🇺🇸

[@glennevans6188]

Fletcher was under huge pressure to preserve what carrier assets remained. The US Navy had already lost many fighters in the early days of the campaign, so to protect the carriers, he had no choice but to leave.

[@gregbuckenara8063]

We as Australians are Eternally Grateful to our American Allies for their Service in the Pacific Island Campaigns. Namely Guadalcanal and Tulagi.We Salute those Ships Company Members still Manning their Action Stations in "Iron Bottom Sound". Fair Winds and Following Seas Shipmates. Your Duty completed with the Utmost Honor, Dignity and Pride. By The Front Salute. Up---Two---Three---Cut. Stand At Ease--- Stand Easy.⚓⚓.

[@geraldblackburn4883]

good that someone tells the real story !

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

👍🏻

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

Thanks JD. Let’s see how controversial it still is. Stand by for the comments.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

😅👍🏻

[@Jasoos_Jasonda]

Fun tip, if you listen to Dave Holland at 2x speed, he sounds like he has an Australian accent, which adds to the video.

[@daffyd5867]

Mate, I have difficulty understanding him now....couldn't finish watching...but a great channel...

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

He has lived in Australia for about 30 years. Then combine that with a northern Alabama upbringing. Hybrid accent.

[@williamrobinson827]

You don't even have to listen at 2x speed to hear the Australian accent. That comes from living there for so many years. I'm a Yankee who lived in South Carolina for a year, and in that short time, I started to get a bit of the inflection.

[@marcbondi8462]

For every marine kia on land there were roughly 3 sailors kia at sea.

[@547Rick]

Historians have said that the battle at Midway was a turning point in the war in the Pacific. Yes, the Navy won a great battle at Midway, but to me, the turning point of the Pacific War was fought at and around Guadalcanal.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Agreed. This was the high water mark for the Japanese.

[@STICKBOW-STEVE]

Yes it was the turning point... I have read many good books on it. The japs called it starvation island... Or something like that. My uncle Eddie was a marine there when the shit hit the fan. A cook came down with malaria.... They asked if anyone has cooking experience.... He said he was a butcher back home. His grave says: field cook. He eventually got malaria too. Our former NRA president Joe Foss won the medal of honor.... Yup in a Wildcat which wasn't great performance wise against the Zero. I also read in a book they captured a jap pilot that was shot down.... They were trying to pull him out of the water and he's trying to shoot them with his water logged pistol.😮😂 Crazy devotion of all combatants. My dad served in VMB 423 on Green Island.... a PFC servicing B25 bombers. The pilots like dad.... They invited him on missions... Nope.... He refused. Dad was a phenomenal shot.... His instructors were crazy about his shooting.... They wanted him on a Marine Raider outfit.... But on the day to qualify... His sights were off.... Didn't shoot well... Oh well... Maybe "someone" looking out for him????? 🤔

[@Jmp64-ns8zl]

They had no choice but to pull back at that stage of the war. We were still recovering from Pearl.

[@RonaldEdson-x2c]

They abandoned wake island already

[@RonaldEdson-x2c]

Red Mike resigned his commission August 1,1947 to testify before congress to keep marine corps Air Force August 15, 1947

[@bennettrogers7921]

Didn’t know that.. any relation to him?

[@briancooper2112]

Fletcher got a bad deal. Turner a drunk told marines they should surrender when food ammo water medical supplies

[@briancooper2112]

I worked with a marine a buddies heard this from a officer attending a meeting. He fought in the Pacific from 1942 to 1945.

[@reloadncharge9907]

Excellent…..very well done…..thanks, Andrew

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

👍🏻

[@robertmorris7332]

This is a lesson in being largely (with a few exceptions) unprepared for war. This included intelligence, equipment, training, and some in leadership positions. The sailors, marines and soldiers did their duty, and paid the price for the lack of readiness.

[@johnhallett5846]

Fletcher was too cautious and his leaving opened the door for the Japanese to come in and win Savo Island which was a devastating loss and the cause of the Navy having to pull back. It is a fact that the Navy did not resupply or reinforce the Garrison for some weeks. Which was why the Marines felt the way they did. The real problem was that with so much effort put into Operation Torch in North Africa the Guadalcanal Campaign was formally called Operation Watchtower was nicknamed Operation Shoestring.

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

The USN were making small supply runs 8 days after leaving. This included bringing in the air ground crews by 18 Aug. The entire 6 CB Bn landed on 1 Sept. Supplies and men were trickling in. The Marines were hungry but not starving. One Marine officer said that. He said now the Japanese, they were really starving.

[@johnhallett5846]

@@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349 dribs and drabs did not impress the Marines. Having to eat left over Jap food was not a morale booster either. The Navy simply was not in a position for some time to do more. and also the Japs were attacking by air and also they could not see any US Ships while they could see Japs around. IT was truly a matter of perception to a great extent but for the Marine grunt it seemed very clear to them that the Navy had left them hanging out there by their own.

[@sharrri23]

They did and didn’t. The navy was wise to beat it. Without the ships more than those Marines would have been in trouble. Besides the Navy brass knew the Devil Dogs could handle their business until they returned.

[@melbea03]

We were operating on a shoe string at this time couldn't afford to lose an aircraft carrier here

[@dannyhoward3437]

It’s still a sore spot today. But given the overall operational picture and recent tactical surprises, coupled with the extreme risk to the Navy of a decisive defeat, the decision was probably sound.

[@davidlavigne207]

As this was the first Allied offensive in the Pacific, it was inevitable that mistakes would be made. I've always reminded myself that Admiral Fletcher was never an aviation trained officer, but was a surface trained officer for most of his career. Although he did his best, I don't believe he ever fully grasped the nature of carrier warfare in it's fullest. I've always put myself in his shoes in not risking the few valuable carriers we had available unless they could induce more casualties than they would take, a philosophy he was ordered to adopt at Coral Sea and Midway by Admiral Nimitz. I assume that these issues were on his mind in making this controversial decision. Had he risked staying longer, and lost one or more of his two carriers he would have faced censure at the least from the high command. Still I can sympathize with the Marines and understand they saw things differently.

[@Idahoguy10157]

Along with the aircraft carriers the most precious ships were the oilers. Because without fuel the navy couldn’t operate. Admiral Fletcher wasn’t going to put his oiler any more in harms way than he had too. So his carriers and escorts went to where the oilers were to refuel.

[@retiredguyadventures6211]

The optics for the Marines stranded on Guadalcana looked bad as far as the Navy leaving them on their own. They essentially did but they had to because without air cover the supply ships would have been sunk and then the Marines would really would have been SOL. Lets not forget far more sailors died duing the Battle of Guadalcana then did the Marines...

[@theophrastus3.056]

The Japanese Zero fighter was superior to anything we had this early in the war. That was a huge factor. Additionally, the Japanese had practiced & perfected night naval warfare, including superior optics, training and procedures. Very few of our ships had radar then, and those that did weren’t well versed in how to use it. So the Japanese navy owned the night, and that didn’t change until American ship’s radar was more widely available. Not just the equipment, but also the tactics & training needed to use it effectively.

[@mommamooney]

JD are there resources that help one find which ship a relative served on?

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

I’d recommend reaching out to Footsteps Researchers. They’re really good at that kind of stuff.

[@mommamooney]

@ thank you! I know my grandfather was on a destroyer. I have lots of memorabilia, but he never mentions the ship’s name

[@Idahoguy10157]

In the Guadalcanal campaign sailors bled and died the most. Which is not to take away from the First Marine Division.

[@PalleRasmussen]

No. There is a reason it is called "Ironbottom Sound". The Navy lost many- many more lives than Marines/Army Unauthorized History of The Pacific has an excellent Guadalcanal series, if you can hear them quote Ching Lee without getting goosebumps, there is something wrong with you; USS Washington "This is Lee" PT Boat "Who the hell is Lee?" Willis Ching Lee "Cactus, this is Lee, tell your big boss (Vandergriff), Ching Lee is here and wants the latest information." PT Boat "There go two big ones, but I do not know whose they are" Willis Ching Lee "Refer your Big Boss about Ching Lee, it is Chinese, Call off your boys!" PT Boat "Identity established, we are not after you" Willis Ching Lee "Peter Tare. This is Lee. Stand clear, I am coming through" And later to Captain Gleen Davies; "Standby Glenn, here they come." Oh Dave is here 😀

[@Scott-ph2yk]

1942 was a challenging year for the US Navy and USMC in the Pacific. The Allies were on the defensive in the face of numerous Japanes victories. The Allies were negotiating the Europe First strategy. US naval build up in ships will not be ready until late 1943. The US Navy was short of fleet tankers in 1942. US naval tactics in 1942 were still developing, and were governed by calculated risk. Within these limitations, Admiral Fletcher did well, inflicting losses upon the Japanese, thwarting their ambitions, and conserving his ships. Fletcher and company successfully held the line against the Japanese without respite from Pearl Harbor until September 1942, when he was given leave. 10 months of continuing action and stress wore heavily upon Fletcher. As far as the debate regarding Fletcher "abandoning" the Marines, there is plenty of debate. Read the history, all of it, not just Morrison. Consider how later commanders lost the USS Wasp while operating in "torpedo junction". Was Fletcher correct to pull back and conserve his ships? Did Turner agree to the withdrawal at the staff meeting prior to the invasion? What were the orders from Ghormley & Callahan? Also, remember King did not like Fletcher. This dated back years before the war. Before you blame Fletcher, there is a lot to consider. All good debate.

[@Ghostofachance-iw8pr]

Let's not forget that Roosevelt had several trustworthy warnings that the Japanese were heading towards Pearl Harbor.

[@JesseJames-wj8ft]

I don't think that abandoned would be the proper term, they were certainly left without external support for some stretches of time, allowing even Japanese battleships to come in and bombard the airfield. The real debate is whether or not the temporary withdrawals were justified by circumstances, were the result of timid commanders, or perhaps a bit of both.

[@your_royal_highness]

Guadalcanal ended on 2/19, Iwo Jima started on 2/19 and several years later I was born on 2/19.

[@erikguth4830]

I was born on D-Day 20 years after the invasion though.

[@smellyarmpitts5274]

Should mention Douglas Munro who did not listen to orders when told “Do not go get the Marines on the beach it’s too dangerous” well good thing he didn’t listen huh? He saved tons of Marines and lost his life doing it. Only Coast Guard person to receive the Medal Of Honor.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

We’ll be circling back to Douglas Munro in a future episode.

[@patrickevans3797]

Yes, but only briefly

[@bertarndt9953]

My dad was there. They were abandoned. Leaving with half their supplies. Spin it how you want.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Did the Navy come back?

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

I spoke to another vets son whose dad is still on his ship from 9 Aug. Tell him his dad and 1,035 sailors and Marines family’s that died that night they abandoned the Marines.

[@tomritter493]

Thaks jd i always wonderd bout that myth

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

@@tomritter493 👍🏻

[@bobbybroadway9513]

When your book comes out, I'm hoping History Underground will make an announcement.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

100%. And I plan on being at the front of the line to purchase one for myself.

[@nomorenoless7656]

Well said sir

[@spacehonky6315]

Was this the night battle where the US Navy lost several completely unprepared clueless heavy cruisers? Definitely time to leave after that spanking.

[@jimmywr32]

great video thank you

[@earlyriser8998]

I love David and subscribe to his channel. BUT the Navy abandoned the Marines on that day. Did they come back and provide supplies...yes. But that doesn't make up for their leaving before they planned of 'two days'. Fletcher left without even telling his teammates he was leaving.....he snuck out

[@markmitchell457]

Regardless of the reason, piss poor planning, lack of air support, whatever you choose the Navy did abandon the Marine corps without supplies or equipment, and almost got their asses sunk.

[@theodoresmith5272]

They had told fletcher it would take 3 days to unload. After the 3 days, he said I'm out. Nobody told him the unloading wasn't complete. It wasn't all on him. Remember, he saved enough of the fleet and strategically won every carrier battle of 1942 vs a much more seasoned jap fleet.

[@Legendary_UA]

Short answer, no. The Navy had to withdraw to protect what assets they had. The Marines proved to be worthy of the task.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

👍🏻

[@edwardgilmour9013]

My late Father-in-Law was on the (Sistership of HMAS Australia) HMAS Canberratold to sit fast in the water at Savo Is bu the US Fllet admiral. then hit by the Japanese then scuttled & sunk on the orders of the US Admeral. A point less waste.

[@theodoresmith5272]

What? The naval losses in ships and men dwarf the marines loesses.

[@OldHickoryAndyJackson]

No, but the Navy got a bloody nose at Coral Sea, and they needed to regroup

[@briancooper2112]

Turner and Smith got Smith replaced. Smith served on Guadalcanal.

[@dukeford]

They got Ralph Smith relieved. Not so sure about Patch.

[@briancooper2112]

@dukeford yes your correct. Got names wrong. Thanks

[@briancooper2112]

@dukeford Smith waited for days before relieve him on saipan. Smith and Turner made up a story so Spruance would ok their plan. Smith and Turner were so power hungry had no right to relieve to relieve a Army general whose unit was against a enemy who was camouflaged and terrain.

[@dukeford]

@@briancooper2112 Ralph Smith reported to Howlin' Mad Smith. If HM Smith wasn't satisfied with Ralph Smith's performance, he was entirely within his rights to request his relief. Whether it was the right call or not is debatable.

[@chipschannel9494]

You take me ten thousand miles from my home , you put me on a desert island with people who are trying to kill me , the same people who then beat the hell out of you , then you leave me with no ride. Then you say fend for yourself until we get back. You left.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Did they come back?

[@rodsands7646]

It was HMAS Australia, not HMS Australia

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

I think he did say it but his fast accent covered that up. If that’s the only thing you could find wrong I guess the guy did well.

[@lonnietoth5765]

Ask the Marines , they have the answer !

[@Crash1371ENG]

Yes.

[@robertwright7085]

Yes

[@tomhenry897]

Yes Sailed off with all their supplies

[@13Bravo77]

Read the book Neptune's Inferno ,you'll learn the truth.

[@jamesrussell7760]

Just about every night after the August 7th landing by the Marines for what must have seemed like forever, Japanese destroyers and cruisers would steam back and forth offshore shelling the Marine positions. For those guys, my predecessors, that must have made their feeling of abandonment far worse. But, as Marines always have done, they adapted and overcame being fed a shit sandwich. Semper Fi.

[@jimpool7780]

...YES...

[@andrewfischer8564]

ww2 tv didnt like my opinion that the navy abandon the marines. had a tiff with the host. the navy should have left the transports until they were unloaded. . they would have plenty to spare. if they got sunk. worth it for the ammo and food alone.

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

Hi Andrew. I hope you’ve been well. I remember your conversion from Woodys WW2 TV episode. At that time in the South Pacific there were not plenty of transports to spare. Have a look at how many times these same ships brought reinforcements in until Jan 43. It seemed to be the same ships because that’s all they had. At the same time this was going down Operation Torch was screaming for transports. They landed with enough ammo. In fact in the Div final report of the campaign they made it a point to say they packed too much ammo in. Even if all the transports were unloaded the US didn’t have the supply network built up in New Caledonia to resupply as required. The marines themselves were to blame for lots of the offloaded supplies being lost or destroyed on shore. It was a big logistical mess as they were learning.

[@TheHistoryUnderground]

Seems like everything worked out so I guess the decision wasn’t that bad. 😅

[@andrewfischer8564]

@@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349 i still think liberty ships were rolling off the gangways like sausages and we could have sacrificed a few aging transports. not having supplies in new calidonia is all the more reason to off load every last round every last c ration. too many reports of having to eat captured japaneese rice...and now you are victim blaming the marines for mishandling what they recieved? destroyed by the tokyo express? that the navy failed to stop?.. this documatary goes into detail how navy brass wasnt comunicating with each other and a mistake was made. credit the navy they kept comming back. ultimatly for a brief moment they lost their nerve.

[@andrewfischer8564]

@@TheHistoryUnderground thank you i learn so much from your chanel.. see places ill never go.. some times it blows my mind that the host will respond.

[@andrewfischer8564]

i also have 20 20 hind site. while the navy didnt know that shipping would be so pletifull in the next 6 to 18 monhts

[@grahamcarver6836]

The Australian Navy ships are HMAS & not HMS. That is the UK...................🤨

[@guadalcanal-walkingabattle5349]

My accent is too fast for some to understand. I said HMAS too quick.