Difficult Sci-Fi Books | Several Recommendations

[@sergorze6453]

Diaspora by Greg Egan was assigned to me as a Secret Santa read and this is definitely a difficult read. I'm moving ahead really slowly, don't know if it gets more fluent further.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Oh I love Diaspora. I'll have a review of it up in two weeks. The first chapter where the data-human orphan citizen is born is so brilliant. If I can help with any parts let me know. Some of the science is so extreme tho, don't worry if it confuses..just accept that it's sciency and keep reading

[@grahamguy4656]

Are you a child of DNA, I love this line no I am made of Stardust, what are you made of?

[@FIT2BREAD]

Yes. Very nice!

[@grahamguy4656]

@@FIT2BREAD I always remember the first line of Dark Tower Gunslinger, The man in black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed, low key on the fanstey, sci-fi, horror story but you would probably like

[@FIT2BREAD]

@Graham guy isn't it amazing when a line just hits u in the face..."ok here we go...it's on!"

[@grahamguy4656]

@@FIT2BREAD The man who read live many life time, the man does not live only one, George rr martin

[@ThirdEyeAwake]

Some of my favorites!!! Dhalgren especially blew my mind about what was possible in literature. Gravity’s Rainbow gets a big 👎 from me because the characters were such disgusting people I couldn’t stand to read the whole book.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Dhalgren is amazing... ill see how I do with GR

[@thgeremilrivera-thorsen9556]

Nice to see some love for Feersum Endjinn! I would like to give some mention to a couple other books too. One is Ursula Le Guin's "Always Coming Home", which is mainly difficult because of its complete lack of classic narrative structure. Rather, it's like a fictional anthropologist's notebook on a future, low-tech human society in California, in a time where modern civilization has collapsed and humanity has reverted to a low-tech kind of society. It contains poetry, stories, food recipes, musical notation, stories told by its members plus the visiting writer's own notes and longer text fragments about this society. It's the coziest post-apocalyptic book you'll ever read. It's sometimes frustrating due to its lack of pacing and momentum driving the story on, but if you can get over that, it's also just really fun to go exploring in this culture that totally could exist, but doesn't. The other is Arno Schmidt' s The Egghead Republic - mainly difficult due to its convoluted narrative style, while the story itself and the world building is actually surprisingly simple and enjoyable. In the future (seen from 1957), after World War 3, Europe and a large part of the USA are gone, but the Cold War continues. The book is the fictional journal of a reporter who travels and describes his experiences in this world, part in a mutant populated nuclear fallout zone, part on board an artificial island populated by thousands of the world's brightest artists and scientists, which has its own little Cold War going and serves as a satirical microcosm of the world. This journal is then, purportedly, translated from a future stage of English into German (then a long dead language) to circumvent future censorship laws (and then actually translated from the actual original German) which makes the language and writing style very outlandish but, once you get used to it, it flows surprisingly well. It's a weird and trippy and poetic and caustically satirical and absurd, almost nihilist book, with elements of both Vonnegut, Farmer and Dick, but in many ways weirder than either of them.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Always Coming Home is a good one. I haven't heard of the other book Egg... but am definitely interested. Thanks

[@chrisconnors7418]

I often wonder how much LSD played into some of those strange sci-fi books from the 70s. That the time when some professors would leave tabs of LSD available for anyone who wanted to try it. In exchange they’d have to write a lengthy essay describing their experience. Baxter certainly has some science-dense books. You have to read the manifold trilogy. The big payoff doesn’t happen till near the end of the third book. Then you suddenly see the previous two books in different contexts. For me, it was mind-bending, to use your term. That night I even had a dream about it that was equally mine-bending and an experience I’ve never had before or since. I won’t say those books were my favourite, but they did leave an outsized impression with a lingering sense of “wow!”. I don’t think I’ve read Raft. I’ll look it up.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Yeah I liked The Raft a lot and it qualifies as mind bending...not in my top 10 or top 20...but still very good...and mind bending :)

[@maxturgeon89]

Great list, thanks Michael! Babel-17 was a great read from last year, and you just reminded me I should also read Empire Star soon (my copy has both in one)

[@FIT2BREAD]

Completely love Empire Star. I have a video I filmed and need to edit still but it's Delany, Egan, LeGuin, and Bradbury and a "where to start with..." video. I def have Babel 17 and Empire Star in there

[@FIT2BREAD]

And thanks

[@bartsbookspace]

I’m equal parts excited and intimidated by the prospects of reading “Shadow of the Torturer”. 😬 it will happen soon…

[@FIT2BREAD]

Bart you just have to jump in. It's a difficult...but not too difficult series. Shadow of Torturer might be the easiest read of the books and it's compelling, which will carry you quite a bit

[@michellevey9608]

It's an easy one. Enjoy!

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@michellevey9608 I admit , it crushed me the first time and was super challenging.

[@3choblast3r4]

@@FIT2BREAD I respectfully don't agree that Shadow is the easiest to read. I thought Claw read much easier because at that point I knew a lot of the terminology and understood much of the world. While in Shadow you're thrown into the deep end and on top of that you have Gene / Severian the narrator interceding with long metaphors and allegories that are often full of obscure references and easter eggs. I also felt like Shadow had a lot more philosophical stuff than Claw had. So far the most difficult to understand thing I read in the book of the new sun was in shadow, in the beginning, I was mad high when I read it which didn't help. "Certain mystes aver that the real world has been constructed by the human mind, since our ways are governed by the artificial categories into which we place essentially undifferentiated things, things weaker than our words for them" That broke my damn mind the first time I read it (it makes little sense even in context) and I remember reading it over and over until I had a satisfactory explanation.

[@attention5638]

"...Thomas Pynchon's...." Alright, I am in! Hahah😅 One of his I have yet to read, but "Against the Day" would make my top 20, maybe. I will have to get to Gravity's Rainbow this year. I know he can be a pretty complex writer, and I am really glad to hear your thoughts on this one, and look forward to it myself. Actually, a lot of these sound like my kind of novel. Sci-Fi is always so great for thought experiments.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Let me know if u start GR..ill probably still be reading it!

[@dqan7372]

Well, that got me excited to read! Thanks!

[@FIT2BREAD]

Oh great. Glad to hear that. Thanks

[@ramblingraconteur1616]

Great recommendations! I love Delaney and Wolfe and it was fun to see Gravity’s Rainbow here. I will have to check out Incandescence. Thanks for sharing these, Michael! Cheers, Jack

[@FIT2BREAD]

Thanks Jack

[@lisacole6037]

I have Gravity's Rainbow but I'm a bit intimidated. One day.... Thanks for the recommendations. 🙂🙂

[@FIT2BREAD]

Yeah, that's how I've been for the last 3yrs. Just intimidated and couldn't get myself to crack it open. I'm glad I did though. It's a reading experience different than any other I've had before....it is work tho

[@Calcprof]

Wolfe and Murakami are two of my favorite authors. I would add China Miéville as a difficult (sometimes) sf author. The math and physics speak in Pynchon is real, and often acurrate. Though, of course, the sf concepts in GR sometimes don't make a lot of sciencfic sense.

[@FIT2BREAD]

yeah, I need to go back to Mieville soon. I know I've talked about him recently in one of my other difficult/mindblowing/or mindbending books videos...

[@eyeroll-encore]

I've had Gravity's Rainbow on my tbr for a long time. Dhalgren, though, I've read twice and loved--now it's fun to just flip to a random page and read for fifteen or twenty minutes; any books like that for you? Great list.

[@FIT2BREAD]

So I finished Diaspora reread last week and am waiting for The Sparrow to arrive (sort of related to a Science Fiction Alliance project)..I "accidentally " picked up Dhalgren (have read it 2x before as well) and it just sucked me back in...so I'm reading 2 behemoths at the moment. And my answer to your question is...Dhalgren...tho I'd put incandescence on that same list. Cool to pick up and flip to anywhere. Tho I'm reading Dhalgren straight through so I can review it well later

[@jeremyfee]

You had me at catastro-Fee. I love the idea of reading "difficult" sci-fi. I'm ready for a challenge.

[@FIT2BREAD]

A catastro-fee will never be as great as a Jeremy-phee

[@mikesnyder1788]

Ashamed to say that I have not read a single word by Eagan, Wolfe, Banks, Delaney, Pynchon... or for that matter Gibson. And at age 75 I am trending toward the easier, more accessible classics. Of all those I just listed I think that Wolfe would have been the one that I might have read back in the day when I read thick, meaty books with no problem. Enjoyed this video!

[@FIT2BREAD]

For me, a lot of it starts with me trying to prove to myself that I can handle challenging reads...it's my version of extreme sports I think

[@FIT2BREAD]

And thanks, Mike

[@mondostrat]

I've read & truly enjoyed 3 of the books in this: Dhalgren, Gravity's Rainbow, & Hardboiled Wonderland & the End of the World. A friend in China named her band after 'Hardboiled Wonderland' except she read the Chinese translation of the novel & it came out 'Cold Fairyland' ... I like that better, don't you?

[@FIT2BREAD]

Yes I def do. Very cool. That will be our thing...will call it by that name.. cold Fairyland

[@grahamguy4656]

Hardboiled wonderland is a Haruki Murakami novel only read his running book no relat to sci-fi I do fancy 1Q84 has anyone read it

[@FIT2BREAD]

@Graham guy also really liked 1Q 84...had that on my top 210 video

[@grahamguy4656]

@@FIT2BREAD how appealing is sounds to watch 210 books over 2hr of vid bit much for me I like to skim though vids or short vids maybe one day I will watch it I like your short vids

[@FIT2BREAD]

@Graham guy ha yes of course...and it's more like 3.5 hrs. You might like to use the time stamps and skim it. All of the cameos are great. You might like watching the guest appearances of Greg Bear, Media Death Cult, Peter Watts, David Brin, and others...

[@thekeywitness]

Dhalgren ❤ Book of the New Sun ❤ Hard-boiled Wonderland ❤ the rest TBR

[@FIT2BREAD]

U have good taste!!

[@Cosmic-Industry]

Are these books too difficult for a non-native speaker who loves to read in English? (I am pretty fluent but I wonder if these are considered difficult for native what they can be for me?)

[@FIT2BREAD]

I would say thar the most accessible for you, on this list is probably the Raft and Incandescence. You might find Dhalgren and Gravitys Rainbow very difficult depending on proficiency with the language. Feersum Enjin would be an interesting experiment.

[@Cosmic-Industry]

@@FIT2BREAD on top of my TBR list there is The Book of the New Sun. After watching your video I must say that I’m very intrigued by Dhalgren. I wonder how an eventual translation of Feersum Endjin in a phonetic written language (like Italian) would look like (would it even make sense?)

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@Cosmic-Industry that's a good question, I think it could be done. I wanna tell you to try Dhalgren..ot is an amazing book

[@jackwalter5970]

Dahlgren is a science fiction masterpiece. Gene Wolfe's books are truly challenging.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Agree. Tho I do get some mild BoTNS vibes with Dhalgren. What else have you loved Jack?

[@jackwalter5970]

@@FIT2BREAD I love James Tiptree Jr's story collection Her Smoke Rose Up Forever and Disch's Camp Concentration.

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@jackwalter5970 awesome, love that collection "smoke rose up," especially girl plugged in...and delicate mad hands...

[@buddyb4343]

I've read Dhalgren twice. It is a story that is certainly chock full of interesting, mind spinning imagery. I read it the second time (40 years later) to make sure that I really was as confused as I thought I was the first time . . . I was!

[@FIT2BREAD]

It has my emotions and nerves in a grip from cover to cover and its as if it never let's go...

[@jer2dabear]

Book of the New Sun is my all time favorite book full stop. Just picked up Dhalgren on your recommendation

[@FIT2BREAD]

I love Dhalgren so much. I hope you like it and let me know what you think. I didn't give a heads-up about graphic sex so hope that's not too shocking for anyone

[@jer2dabear]

@FIT 2B READ not a shock for me. I've seen and done it all. The graphic-er, the better I say, haha

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@jer2dabear tell me how u really feel...

[@jer2dabear]

@@FIT2BREAD haha, I was just joking...kinda

[@FIT2BREAD]

@Jeremy B ha I figured!

[@sailorjbn]

Thx for the labeling. Im not gonna get these🤘🏻

[@FIT2BREAD]

Because u like a challenge?

[@shellymarstersdon6268]

@@FIT2BREAD they said they're "not" getting them Michael :)

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@shellymarstersdon6268 ha yes, I misread the comment.

[@TheWRYYYYYYY]

Gravity's Rainbow is a true epic, and definitely a book to be re-read. It's gonna be a wild ride and you probably are gonna feel as lost as the characters themselves, but there's no other book like it. It's like the insanity of war personified as people, with themes ranging from colonialism to humankind's relationship with technology. By the way, the Pynchon Wiki should be of great help while reading GR, I referred to it often while reading another book of Pynchon's, Mason & Dixon.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Thanks I'll try the wiki. I've been using a supplemental guide as well

[@sidclark1953]

To reduce your frustration level you should first by a copy of "A Gravity's Rainbow Companion" because it explains a lot of what Pynchon is alluding to and referencing. I didn't have it and the book gave me a massive headache. And be warned that Pynchon seemed to think it would be funny to see how many extreme S&M sex acts he could include in the story and some of them are very gross and disturbing. The book is really one long compendium of eggheaded in-jokes as if he just wrote it for the amusement of his personal circle of super-smart friends. And it also helps to be a physics and math geek. The calculus equations in the book are 100% correct. And it's no coincidence that Slothrop rhymes with throw-up.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Thanks Sid. I did buy one of the companion handbooks and while it feels somewhat limited, it's helping a lot. I totally get what you are saying about in-jokes. I'm enjoying the challenge, but based on the first 175 pages, I am predicting ill like the overall read but don't expect it to make my top 50

[@sidclark1953]

@@FIT2BREAD "Shadow of the Torturer" didn't work for me. Too cold and aloof. I'm glad to see you talked about Greg Egan. I'm thinking of buying one of his short story collections. A famous software engineer, Richard M. Stallman, is a fan of Egan which makes me curious.

[@FIT2BREAD]

@Sid Clark great sid. Thanks. Theres a lot of Wgan stuff on my channel, including an older review of Dichronauts. I've also spoken a lot about Schilds, Perm City, Quarantine, and others quite a bit. In 2 weeks, I'll have a review of Diaspora up as well. On of my freinds who is a physicist cameoed on my top 210 episode and spoke about Quarantine

[@decadentia84]

Huh, I didn't think Raft was hard to read. I kind of just took the science at face value. Whether or not it would be possible, eh. Might have missed some things I suppose. Enjoying your channel though man, cheers from Canada.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Thanks...I was maybe splitting hairs hard vs difficult. It was difficult more to buy-in with the science...not so much hard to understand...for me

[@decadentia84]

@@FIT2BREAD Ah ok gotcha. Yeah I've seen that same criticism about the book. I agree as well, it required some suspended belief at moments.

[@sleestack13]

For difficult Science Fiction books regarding language, I always like to recommend "Riddley Walker" by Russell Hoban. It's a diary of sorts, from a very post-apocalyptic England, and English has been reduced to it's basic, sometimes phonetic components. I have been trying to get Moid to read this one, to no avail... yet.

[@FIT2BREAD]

That's definitely one for this list. For me it was good bit not great...creative, inventive...yes, and I can def see some really loving the reading experience. I don't mind the language stuff and I think it suits the story

[@donaldb1]

_Riddley Walker_ is an astonishing book. With the style of language it must have been an influence on _Feersum Endjinn._ When you start out the language does feel like a simplification of basic English, but when you get into it you find it rich in double meanings and complex associations with the future mythology the author works out for the story.

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@donaldb1 it's a very interesting read

[@michellevey9608]

Dhalgren remains my standard for 'l did it!'. A very memorable experience nonetheless.

[@FIT2BREAD]

As I'm re reading it, I'm voice messaging my freind Whitney pretty much every day...interrupting my reading to just gush, "oh my God I love this book."

[@michellevey9608]

I've never received such a quick and honest reply to a comment! I 'stumbled' on your site because l've been in a very, very long sf reading slump. Anyway, just yesterday l dug into my little library looking for a thin book that l hadn't read. I'm currently on page 38 of The Einstein Intersection! Thanks!

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@michellevey9608 awesome. That's another great one. Have you read Empire Star?

[@michellevey9608]

I think you mentioned it in one of your videos. I'll check it out. Small steps for now. I hope to finish this in the next few days. Then maybe that next? Momentum is what l need!

[@FIT2BREAD]

@@michellevey9608 awesome. Empire Star as 100 pages or less, but it's a great read

[@jonah_k]

I'm trying to decide whether a "difficult" book should no longer be a deterrent, now that I'm older and I think I can handle all kinds of styles. But Dhalgren is notoriously difficult from what I've heard. I believe I read that even Philip K. Dick found it difficult!?! I've got a big decision to make because I have copies of Babel-17 and Dhalgren and need to choose one Delany when I'm ready for another Delany read. Read some short stories by Delany, as well as Nova, a long time ago. So do I take a heavy dose of a challenging author so I can handle the less mammoth books better? Or do I build myself up?

[@FIT2BREAD]

I'm biased right now cause I'm reading Dhalgren. It's not that hard, and you really do get pulled in. Because the story is so vivid, I think you'll be able to really enjoy it. Babel17 isn't difficult and is very fun

[@3choblast3r4]

Build yourself up or you might burn out and get frustrated and disappointed. E.g I would suggest reading some William Gibson, which many people find difficult and confusing read, but is not that hard after you start understanding the terminology and pay attention. Was somewhat intimidated to read book of the new sun because I even saw guys with PhD's claiming that they only got like 25% of the books after reading it the first time. But it's really not that difficult as people make it out to be. I think the trick is to not read it like you're reading any regular fantasy or sci fi story. But instead being super focused and trying to understand everything, even if it's frustrating and you need to reread a section a couple of times, before you know it, it becomes much easier and it will drastically improve your reading comprehension to a point where "difficult books" are no longer that difficult and books that are too straight forward feel unchallenging. It's like playing souls games. You're gonna get your ass kicked over and over and it's gonna be frustrating at first .. but then you git gud and those super scary enemies are no longer scary, not because you gained levels and got super strong gear etc none of that makes much difference in souls games. Purely because you got super skilled at the game, you learned how the mechanics of it worked and how the world was put together. It's kinda like that for reading, once you figure a writer out and see their paterns and ways of writing it becomes a lot easier to decipher what they are saying.

[@havocmaverick]

Dahlgren is a horrible book. Graphic sex scenes every 10 pages. There is not much sci-fi in it.

[@FIT2BREAD]

It's not for everyone, but I absolutely love it. The sex is graphic and challenging, but I do not find it to be at all gratuitous. Every ten pages I stop and say out loud to an empty room, "my God this book is amazing."

[@Joe-lb8qn]

Allow me to add Accelerando. Which is available (legitimately) for free.

[@FIT2BREAD]

Awesome, I just ordered a new copy of Accelrando last week. Probably going to also include it in a modern cyberpunk reads video...

[@EveryoneWhoReadsitMustConverse]

Very awesome sci-fi video! This is just the kind of works that bring me joy and stimulate my mind. Read, think, dream, reread

[@FIT2BREAD]

Thanks Noah. I know we are Kindred spirits in how moved we are by astonishing lit

[@EveryoneWhoReadsitMustConverse]

@@FIT2BREAD that's the truth!I need to read some Delaney. Heard too much good about Babel-17 and Dahlgren