DiFluid Omni Coffee Roast Analyzer

[@EdinbruehtKaffee]

Just to highlight how important roast level is. Marten Münchow, a well known Coffee Roasting Training from Denmark, founder of Coffee Mind, says that 70% of the taste, he would attribute to Roast Level / Color. 20% on Development time and 5% on the time to first Crack. He has verified this with scientific studies with the University and double Blind Cupping Experiments with Coffee Professional. Astounding work and tying in perfectly with your video

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing. I’m hoping to incorporate my roast level data with future roasts I do here on my channel.

[@LivingTheLifeRetired]

Nice to see you again Mike. I’ve been using the LeBrew RoastSee C1, it doesn’t get much love, perhaps not as much marketing as DiFluid, and using it has really helped me in my roasting. I was just using weight loss percentage as a guide for roast level but I find with the color meter that weight loss and the color meter are not always in sync so it’s good to have both. I have the R2 but don’t use it much, I found the DiFluid product to be inconsistent in its measurements and the user interface on the app to be underwhelming at best and poor contrast making it hard for me to read so I just stopped using it. I do like the particle size feature of the Omni. I was going to get a set of Kruve sifters but the desire just kinda went away - I use my grinder on mostly the same setting for pour over with some small variations for espresso so I think I’d use it a couple times but probably no long term value there. I hope you are doing well. All the best. Edward.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing Edward. I’m glad you’re doing well. I’ve really enjoyed my DuFluid experience. I roast different coffees each week and find the brewing configuration needs tweaking when I go from coffee to coffee. Using the app has helped me understand the impact of grind size, water temperature, ratios, pour method and so on. As a matter of fact, I e totally changed my brewing recipe because of the app and the refractometer. When testing the same brew over and over, my results have been consistent. As for the app, no issues with contrast but there are some features that are not obvious. Assume you can touch almost anything and it will respond. No “button”type stuff, just numbers, arrows and icons. It super intuitive but I’m getting use to it. Maybe the display and interface has changed since you used it? How long have you have your R2? Maybe difluid will exchange it?

[@jameskay574]

DiFluid has been coming out with some impressive products. I have the refractometer which has really helped me a lot. For me, the price point of this device is too high. Hopefully it will come down in price in the near future because I would love to have one. The particle analyzer would also be helpful in comparing different grinders. I have an electric and hand grinder and it would be nice to correlate their settings. I use the hand grand when I am up early and don't want to wake the Mrs. The roast color device would be really helpful because as a new home roaster I am still struggling a bit with determining color by eye. The SM color card does help some, but often I find it hard to match my grounds to the card. I have a spectrophotometer that I use for photography (measuring color swatches and creating printer profiles) that I am trying to figure out how to use to measure my coffee color. Not sure it will work but its all I have right now. Keep up the great work Mike!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Jim, if you download the app, in the particle section you will find a button that initiate your phone to measure particles with the camera. Search on difluid site for particle analysis and look for the short video on the cafe app doing the analysis

[@pimacanyon6208]

I also have trouble determining roast level by appearance and I'm also using the SM color card. However, the color card also shows weight loss for each roast level. So I use that to determine roast level. I have a spread sheet I've set up to calculate the percentage weight loss. I just enter the starting weight in grams in one column and the weight in grams after roasting in the next column. The next column calculates the weight loss as a percentage and then I use the SM color card to see where I've ended up. I'm using the Fresh Roast SR 540 and I find that going 45 seconds to 1 1/2 minutes past first crack gives me the roast level I'm aiming for depending on the bean and SM's recommended roast level for that bean. I keep temps between 415 and 425 after first crack has started. I never go to second crack, that's too dark for me and gives a flavor that's too close to burnt.

[@jlantz3691]

Really interesting, but a little pricey for most of us. I liked your term "quality control tool", as that's exactly what it is. I'd think for a large-scale roaster, both the color and particle analyzers could be valuable in determining if your roaster or grinder had issues if your normal grind size or roast level had unusual variations. I typically use the Roast Color Card from Sweet Maria's. At $5, it gives me the SCA roast scale with pictures of beans in each range along with corresponding weight loss % for each range.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi J. Thanks for sharing. I am thankful for your comment and thoughts. I believe There is a chunk of home coffee roasters who might find the Omni helpful and can afford it. I’ve talked quite a few of them. It’s interesting, I find myself creating content for people who are DIY hobbyists, newbies, long time roasters, part-time sellers, coffee shop/roaster owners, and others. So, my audience is diverse. Sellers of greens haven’t said how large the home coffee roasting market is but just in a 3 year period, my channel has attracted 15,000 that have subscribed here. That is only a fraction of those who view the content. I’m not saying this to say my Channel is good or bad. I’m trying to express the potential size of the home coffee roasting industry as a whole. I believe there are hundreds of thousands in this market audience and a portion of them might be able to afford the Omni and benefit from its use.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Forgot to know the use of a color reference like you and myself use. It is a great way to estimate a roast level! Thanks for sharing!

[@hurcorh]

You’ll probably find grind size and even grind distribution, such as the type of grinder used will effect the readout from that device. I only mention that because if you want to incorporate it as a part of QC, changing grinders or grind size will change how consistent it may be.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Great suggestion. Yes, I’ve got Fellows Ode and a King Grinder K6. I’ll be using the hand grinder for my measurements for QC/comparison.

[@AllGroundsCoffee]

Yes cool. I got one in March and it works well.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Are you using any of the cafe app features with your Omni?

[@AllGroundsCoffee]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Yes. I do

[@sf2189]

I love mine. I do the outside bean and then bought a specific hand grinder just for the internal which I do at 800-850nm grind (I believe that’s the SCA recommendation). I use the SCA scale but now target agtron internal

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

That’s great info, thanks for sharing that. Which hand grinder are you using?

[@sf2189]

I got a timenore S3. I set it to 54-55 which coincides with the proper grind size. DiFluid was the one that advised me on proper grind size. I think what ends us happening is that you will ultimately target an internal Agtron that you like based on the bean. It makes for very consistent roasting. You will also notice that there is correlation between the outside or inside so when I’m running a batch of beans on the link that I run all the time, I might just do a quick check on the outside and not grind at all.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Perfect. Thanks for elaborating SF. I haven't gotten to comparing different grind sizes as it relates to extraction. I plan on focusing on that next. I'm using the R2 to measure TDS. With regards to the color or whole vs ground coffee, I will pay attention to the correlation you mentioned. Thank you very much!

[@pimacanyon6208]

cool tool! but a bit pricey for my blood. Like you, I use weight loss to determine roast level.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing & watching Pima.

[@pimacanyon6208]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab you're welcome. Thanks back at you. I learn a lot from your videos ;-)

[@moorejl57]

I see a trend of successful coffee KZbin content providers attracting commercial products that are simply outside the reach of most coffee people. This device cost almost three times what I paid for my roaster.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing. I understand your point and agree any roast analyzer might be out of the question for some viewers here on my channel. I can say there are many who are interested in something like this. As mentioned in another comment for this video, my audience is made up of many different types of coffee roasting people. Home roasters on a budget, some with no budget, those who are selling at farmers markets, and professionals. My content reflects my audience. That’s why my previous video used a bread machine to roast and before that I used an 1,800 dollar LINK sample roaster. Most of the “successful KZbinrs are full-time. They gain large audience, get sponsorships, and more importantly are selling something. I’ve got a full time job outside of KZbin and am doing this because I like supporting this hobby by helping others. I don’t make much money at all. I have a large enough audience where some manufactures are reaching out to me to review their produces. I’ve turned some done and accepted a few. I appreciate your thoughts and comments you shared. Thank you for being a part of my viewing audience!

[@devenpatel3044]

It's ironic that the only places or people who talk about roast color is consumer facing. The device can't sell itself. People used to look at roast color with color tiles and still doesn't make a difference on the actual need to adjust or move a roast.

[@jlantz3691]

Agree to a point. But if you can nail down a process that corresponds to a bean roast color that you really like (and be able to document it via a color card), you can at least achieve some consistency roast-to-roast. Also thinks it's valuable to be able to communicate roast levels with others using the same verbiage. For example, green coffee vendors often describe the flavors of a particular bean at different roast levels. Having that more-detailed information might give you a better chance of hitting what you think you will like than just a generic "light", "medium" or "dark".

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@devenpatel3044 Thanks for sharing. I learned about the roast analyzer through roaster trainers like Rob Hoos. I think you are right though, as far as videos go, they are promoting them to be purchased. Even my video offered a discount code for purchase BUT my intent was to focus on color and share there is a way to digitize color for grater consistency. It helps the cup and it helps the roaster. In our case, we are the roaster and the consumer.

[@devenpatel3044]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks for the reply, and forgive the snark, but we can't taste color so I'm not sure when you share on the info you were taught, where does color's value as an indicator stem from, what is the actual thing measured, what is color coming from and what creates it. I'm not sure what people believe where color comes from and why it has a significant bearing anymore. Since people have better probes to measure where they go, and we know one roaster will roast different in how it applies heat through the roast, so developing differently. How could one roaster say roast to this color to another person, and all they simply have to do is roast to color, knowing the style and weight loss is something I would consider, or segment times/ratios, but not color. Obviously that's an oversimplification but then you could specify: does the color indicate flavor, and it does not. It is simply a byproduct, a result of what the roaster did, to keep track for repetitions purpose but since the development per roaster, per coffee changes. Color is fleeting from moment to moment. Let alone let's consider that the coffee's "color" changes looking dark and molten, to smooth surface and light. And experienced roaster knows a dark molten bean is lighter than smooth surfaced beans and contradicting to a color analyzer (which to an experienced roaster, who knows how consistent and reliable one is, let alone compared to another brand). Honestly, it made little sense to me when people used color cards and less sense with a machine, made by people selling an idea and not a researched proofed necessity. Just use weight loss, it's much better, much cheaper as you mentioned (very briefly), weight loss, not "moisture loss" deserves the esteem gladly given to color analyzers. Because we are sheep and we love new nonsensical toys. Instead of honing the craft of roasting, understanding the science of roasting to create the art of a roaster. Let color fade as it is just another marketing flab of wasted resources.

[@snipes10272]

I'm certainly interested in this. Will you be getting the rest of the Difluid tools in to test?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Yes, I already have the Microbalance scale and the R2 extractor to test . I should have a video for these in the next month I think.

[@edk773]

So after watching your video I ended up buying it based on your recommendation. It is definitely quality product as you said. only issue is the documentation is a little lacking. I still cant figure our how to delete a roast in the app in either the bean or brew screen

[@edk773]

so i just figured it out its in the profile pg. thanks again for review its a great tool

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing. I can’t either ed. Documentation is bad. The print is tiny. I’ve watched many of the DiFluid videos, which helped. Spending time in the app, I’ve found lots of Easter eggs like the particle analyzer you can use with your phone.

[@edk773]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab I agree there are a lot of undocumented features which are really neat. Wasnt sure if you found how to delete (since the X by the page doesnt work) but if you go to the bottom of the screen (where bean is on the left, brew middle, profile right) click on profile you can delete greens, beans etc

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing that Ed. I'll take a look.

[@ceciliadvl6798]

I´m planning on buying a coffee roast analyzer for my coffe lab/roaster, but my budget it´s a little short to buy the DiFluid. Have you heard about the Lebrew Roastsee c1?🤔🤔

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Cecil. The manufacturer has reached out to me, asking if I would review their product on my channel….. so, yes, I have heard about the RoastSee C1 by Lebrew. @LivingTheLifeRetired has one. I’m hoping he can offer his thoughts. I’ve not used that analyzer yet.

[@ceciliadvl6798]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab That´s pretty awesome!!! Thank you very much for you help, let´s wait for his review🙂

[@LivingTheLifeRetired]

I have the Roastsee by LeBrew and have owned it for 5 months and purchased directly from LeBrew (shipped to Canada without issue). I use it most every time I roast, it is very easy to use and can measure the colour of both whole beans and ground coffee. It turns on almost immediately and is ready to use. It is well made and comes in a nice case and has helped me in my roasting.

[@ceciliadvl6798]

@@LivingTheLifeRetired Thank you very much!! I think i´ll buy it next month

[@Yirgamalabar]

Can the difference in values between ground coffee color analysis and whole bean color analysis be used to detect "baking"? I would assume that the smaller the gap in numbers, the more likely it is that the internal and external parts of the beans where roasted the same.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I wish I could answer that but I don’t know. I guess it all depends how you define baking?

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Hey Mike, I hope you are well. Im feeling ok lately. My 3rd batch of those beans from Miramar came out better but still not great. It was a 10 min roast, 1st phase end at 5:15 i think... Idr when fc was... i feel that maybe bcuz they were sun-dried that maybe they are not fully dry. Imma put a batch in the hanging pepper dryer, next very sunny day. Would you do me a favor? Would you write out both formulas in simple and easy to follow text. The formula for finding green bean density and the other formula for roast level percentage? Is the roast level percentage the same as moisture loss? Thank you. You have given me a formula in the past but i can't find the screenshot i took. Thank you so much. This is an awesome video. What a great device. Have a great weekend.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi KG, Density: using clear plastic cup Weigh 250g of water Draw line at the water line around the outside of the cup Dry cup, fill green coffee to line Take that number and divide it by 250 That is your density number Say your green coffee weighs 172 grams. Divide that by 250=0.688. 688 is your density For development percentage, I measure my time in seconds. Example, 4 minutes = 240 seconds. So, figure out your phase times and total roast time in seconds. Now, here is the formula: Phase seconds divided by total roast time then multiply by 100 = phase percentage. Example. 4 minute dry phase = 240 seconds. 240 divided by 600 (total roast time in seconds of 10 minutes) multiply by 100 = 40 which is 40% Do that formula for each phase to get your breakdown.

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

​@@VirtualCoffeeLab OK... I was with you, but I got lost. I'm sorry, I just don't understand yet. It is not clicking. For what reason did you go with 240s or 4 minutes? How are these times determined? Is the density what dictates the development time? I'm sorry Mike, Please would you explain it again for me. I'm following you but it is not that, "ah ha" moment yet. I assume using the density will give a percentage that equates to roasting time for phase 1 or actually it is phase 2? Nope, I'm lost. Dude, I'm sorry. Please, would you try again? I'm going to open a new bag later today. I'm done with those damn Miramar beans. They were delicious and super sweet but I feel they were either not fully dry or perhaps the bag was left open and they got too dried out. Idk, maybe next year I'll try them again.

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

​@@VirtualCoffeeLab Where do you get the phase times from? Maybe that is what I do not understand.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat see my reply from your previous message.

[@GeorgeGoosen]

Looks amazing, bu $1700 for this?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi George. No, they are 900 dollars for the Omni color analyzer which i used in this video. You may have been looking at their new model which also measures density and moisture i think?

[@GeorgeGoosen]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab I used the link you provided, price is probably in AUD, but still that's pretty expensive

[@trev_mcnaughton]

super cool seeing technology out like this.. unfortunately it exceeds my annual coffee tech budget.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Trev, yea, I get it. The Omni isn’t inexpensive but it is the least expensive in the market. I appreciate you watching and sharing your comment with others. Based on my experience talking with many home coffee roasters, there is a segment of them that are in the market for a device like this. I find myself creating content for people who are DIY hobbyists, newbies, long time roasters, part-time sellers, coffee shop/roaster owners, and others. Sellers of greens haven’t said how large the home coffee roasting market is but just in a 3 year period there are 15,000 that have subscribed here. I’m positive that is only a small fraction of the market.

[@trev_mcnaughton]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab It's true, since I got into espresso about 4 years ago I've seen the same thing. Now that I'm roasting I'm seeing even more. It's exciting to see. Something to keep in mind as well, the early offerings from tech are always the priciest but with more enthusiasts and hobbyists flooding the scene, I can only expect prices to become more attainable for us. all that said, it's been added to the wishlist!

[@jerryhubbard4461]

I always measure the weight loss when I roast. I tend to like dark or med to dark. Is there an optimum percentage that we should look for. My last two roast were medium and the percentage hit 14% on each roast using the same profile. It that percentage good or not so good?

[@luigicollins3954]

Hi Jerry. I know you want Mike’s reply, but I thought I would offer mine here as well for what it is worth. I’m not real sure what you’re asking about optimum percentage, but I would think the optimum percentage is the one that gives the best tasting roast to you! On my scale (explained below) 14% would be what I call “Light+“. Rob Hoos came up with a table of roast loss percentages and corresponding names - they are as follows: 11% to 13% is Light 14% to 16% is Medium 17% to 18% is Dark 19% to 22% is Extra Dark I felt his table was a bit coarse, so based on his I came up with my own: 11% to 13% is Light 14% is Light+ 15% is Medium 16% is Medium+ 17% to 18% is Dark 19% to 22% is Dark+ Using my scale, I generally prefer Light+ roasts; I have never roasted darker than 16% moisture loss.

[@jerryhubbard4461]

@@luigicollins3954 Thank you so much. I made a copy of both of your takes. Here is a funny. About 4 days ago I roasted some beans and cut it 1.5 minutes after first crack. When I weighted the roast, it had me at 22%. I knew that was not right. As I was cleaning the collector, there were a bunch of beans hung up. I did that trying to cool the beans before stopping the roast. So I re-weighted the beans after I cleaned out the collector. It came to 14%. I am drinking that same coffee not at 6.20.24 9:00 PM and it is a light light roast with a little sour taste. Personally I like dark and not beyond. Thanks again for the information.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks Jerry & Lou. Great conversation. I’m thinking similar to Lou and his scale. Sounds like you’re in the 15-16% range for moisture loss. I think you’re sucking beans into the collector because your air is too high or you are roasting too many beans at a time. For accurate moisture loss readings you have to weigh every bean. So, try not to lose any beans during the roast.

[@jerryhubbard4461]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Actually I was taking the top off the roaster to put the beans in my vacuum cooler. The beans were actually not that high un the chamber but I should have turned down the fan before removing the collector. When I did it shot the beans up into the collector. lol I retrieved the beans from the collector and re-weighted the beans. It came out to 14%. Next time I will pay better attention. I alway measure the beans at 226 G before going in. I never vary the amount. This particular roast was still not my favorite. It was a little sour.

[@Yirgamalabar]

How much of a difference does the ground coffee color analysis provide over percentage of weight loss? Because the latter is also not subjective and can be calculated easily. Would there be cases where roasts of different beans that all have 13.5% weight loss (basically medium roast) result in markedly different Agtron numbers when measuring the ground coffee? i.e. to a level where some would be analyzed as lighter than medium roast while other would be analyzed as darker than medium roast?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Great question. Someone correct me if I am wrong please. Moisture level is “not as subjective” and I think I said in my video, it is a numeric measurement. The problem with moisture loss (which I use) is the original moisture level. If I were to ask you what the moisture level of your green coffee is, you would most likely say, “I don’t know”. That would be my answer. The reality is the moisture level of green coffee varies from 10-12%. To make matters more challenging, your specific green coffee moisture level will change with age. So, it could be different based on age or environmental storage issues. Ultimately, most of us won’t know the current moisture level of our coffee before roasting. The moisture loss percentage of roasted coffee is not the same as moisture level of green coffee. The moisture loss is a percentage moisture removed during the roast with a variable range of existing moisture (water activity) in the greens. Without a Meter, moisture loss and bean color are the best measurements BUY, they aren’t perfect.

[@devenpatel3044]

@@VirtualCoffeeLabthat's why "moisture loss" is the same as saying: Millard, exothermic, dev time. They are all misnomoers or only partially representative based on the authors misunderstandings or low informational background. Though we all start somewhere, and like moisture loss the evolution could be called "weight loss" and while yes, things like age of the bean effect the roast the same weight loss has better correlative value than color. Consider or test on a profile altering a profile to reach the same weight loss vs altering a profile to reach the same color. Color only needs to reach the same temp (extremes excluded) while weight loss is much more difficult to match if the dance before the beans drop is severely altered. Color is flawed on many levels, if we push a roast too hard and burn/tip the roast, color meters will just average out. Or if we have a light roast with very molten bean surface, again color is average out. The roaster knows molten texture is a lighter roast than a light smooth bean, which is better seen by weight loss, as just one more example.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@devenpatel3044 Thank you for your comment. Can you expand on your statement: "that's why "moisture loss" is the same as saying: Millard, exothermic, dev time."

[@devenpatel3044]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab sure, the difference is when we say moisture loss, we are implying that the moisture from green is kept for a large duration of the roast. Where in food items there is 'free' and 'fixed' moisture. The free moisture is basically what's in the bean as water, and fixed is what is in the food item, ie hydrogen (moisture), bound within other molecules that gets released and rebonded to, from and with other molecules as the juice of the bean and the structural part of the bean is being broken down by heat. So for the most part, free moisture is basically gone (either evaporated off the surface or turned into steam and trapped within the structural matrix of pores in the bean). When the beans are yellow, as the chlorophyll starts oxidizing and degrading the beans go from green to yellow, and then subsequent breakdown as the beans get hotter. So while the beans are roasted they are releasing by products of both moisture and other physical parts of the bean. Like a spaceship crash landing into a planet and all the bits of the ship start flying off, kind of like that, so the material of the bean is being lost, to in order to accurately transcribe the event, of both moisture and other materials being lost. I prefer to say weight loss and not moisture loss.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@devenpatel3044 Moisture loss continues from Charge all the way to First Crack. The compounds in the beans are multiplying creating new flavors. After first crack the compound structure begins to breakdown. Depending on roast level the actual loss of structure will vary. Since I prefer Medium-Light roasts, I'm still getting most of the flavor and less of the "roasty" notes. We use development to balance these two aspects of what we taste. The video I reference in a different thread we are talking about does address moisture loss here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gV6mhK1oiLRnm7Msi=cw-wWFPY33MFULna&t=1691. I really like this interview as there is a ton of great information. Morton M and Rob H are leaders in the specialty coffee industry.

[@jessicamedov6793]

Is the discount code still works ?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Jessica. I think the discount code ended a couple weeks ago. I’ll trim that section of the video to avoid confusion.

[@jessicamedov6793]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab ​ @VirtualCoffeeLab hi, can you try to offer an valid discount code please ?

[@asmith2886]

Development time.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for your comment. So you are measuring roast level based on development time. That is a very common way based on first crack time. Do you change the development time based on the bean type? Also, I’m curious what type of roaster you are using. Thanks for sharing

[@asmith2886]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab I am using a bullet and use a Profile based on aillio’s sample recipe. I usually roast my beans (naturals and washed) to between 20 and 25% development. Based on weight loss these are medium roasts.