Disappointing Precision Rifle Build

Description of my 6.5 CM Precision Rifle built on a Zermatt TL3 bolt action

[@fredfernald8016]

This is a good lesson to all who aspire to shoot accurately. This is NOT derogatory to you. You can’t buy the skill. You can buy the tool but must perfect the skill. Keep at it.

[@armeddiver]

You are absolutely correct. No matter how good the tool, it is completely limited by one's ability to use it. I need training and I am not embarrassed to say it. We will see what the New Year brings.

[@zackdooley2919]

What specifically made it so disappointing? You have the necessary tools to shoot successfully, and your groupings were fairly decent for factory ammunition. Start hand loading your own ammunition if you want to get the maximum accuracy out of your setup. That significantly improves accuracy and consistency compared to factory-loaded ammo.

[@armeddiver]

Seriously, the only thing that is truly disappointing is the Patriot Valley Mussel brake. It does not stay tight. I have changed it out for a VG6 Lamba. The other two issues are the single stage trigger and the MRAD Scope. I should have stuck with a two stage trigger and MOA for the scope. I know. Petty stuff and I need to get over myself.

[@Lure-Benson]

When I see the factory-made ammo boxes, I right away got the feeling of seeing crappy target groups when factory ammo can't ever match to reloaded ammo when the guns owner works out loads the rifle shoots best.

[@steveburdette1478]

Mdt makes a muzzle brake that self times with a jam nut system you might want to check out

[@matthewkyle6939]

@@armeddiverget a fat bastard or little bastard muzzle brake. One of the best on the market if not the best. Love them

[@matthewkyle6939]

@@Lure-Bensonpfft. While that is somewhat true it’s also a little exaggerated. I can put three touching at 100 yards with a factory rifle and factory ammo. So using factory ammo isn’t a reason for poor groups.

[@db4444]

In elr it's all about fundamentals!!!! You might want to try next time you go shooting to not break your cheek weld until you're completely done shooting . That should help tighten your groups up.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for the advise. You are saying to hold the cheek weld until I have fired the series, correct? I will try. Again, thank you. Trigger control is something that I also have to work on.

[@timothyward7381]

Any rifle requires reloaded ammo for it don’t get down and don’t judge the gun till u start reloading for it nice rifle by the way

[@Z33Garage]

First and foremost, dont get offended by what Im about to say. Ive seen this happen at the range far too many times with other shooters, regardless of what style of shooting they do. They buy gucci gear and expect the gear to crutch for their lack of base skills. The second issue is the quick to buy crowd that doesnt do enough research prior to purchasing. Last range trip I went was to zero a PSA 300blackout AR with a PA scope on it for hog hunting, and the dude next to me had a christenson arms + gen 3 viper and he did not understand why his rounds were going over the berm... You purchased an Mrad scope probably because the majority of PRS style matche users generall run mrad because its in tenths. ( think 10 pieces make 1 candy bar) vs moa where the pieces are like quarters to a dollar. I started with MOA and moved over to MRAD, I still use both because I dont feel like changing my old scopes. Mrad isnt difficult to learn, go watch a few ryan cleckner videos or just youtube mrad and you will get it, this is what I did and I was a C graded math student. Also dont get a CF wrapped barrel for this application. I started long range shooting with a cheeto build. Bergara B14 HMR wilderness in 6.5, PSTgen2 FFP in Mrad. Everything stock and simple till fundamentals got there. It was about 1700 dollars for that whole rifle. In the LRS 101 class I took, there were people with 5000 dollar rifles who did not grasp the basic concept of their optic turrets but had a deep wallet. Frankly it was a little embarasing I image for them. They would argue with the class RO/ teacher when they would attempt to correct them or tell them what they were doing wrong. ( Im not saying you are doing this, just an example). Your gun is SOLID, maybe swap out your muzzle brake for a simpler cheaper brake or omni brake with wrench flats so you can keep it on the gun. Learn the Mrad system or learn to convert mrad to MOA if you plan on going to a PRS match, the odds of you finding MOA at a match isnt too high, and most corrections if given will be in mrad(mills). Cheek weld holds, follow through on the trigger, etc. work on your fundamentals with a basic bitch rifle first then buy gucci gear.

[@armeddiver]

I take no offense from anyone like yourself who is giving sincere advice. I am old retiree and if I’m honest, building the gun is the part that I enjoy the most and have the money to do. Now, with that said I am trying to spend more of my money on training and ammo for practice. I want to thank you for taking the time to comment, I always learn something from honest comments.

[@Z33Garage]

@@armeddiver I too love the build. Anything computers, cars rifles etc. I also suffer from the OCD of researching the crap out of anything I purchase or do. Tight groups man, the more we practice the better we get.

[@armeddiver]

@@Z33Garage Amen my friend, Amen.

[@davestrohmeyer-saddleupsho8009]

Thanks for your service. Enjoy shooting your rifle. Next step is handloading custom ammo for your custom rifle.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. I currently don’t have a space to set up to reload, but maybe some day.

[@JSomerled]

The pursuit of accuracy can be challenging.Shooting long range precision you really have to hand load.There just isn’t an exception.The cool thing about hand loading is it takes you to the next level of gun nerd…

[@anthonymurphy1624]

Thanks for sharing your journey!!! A lot of commits people gave, I am also taking them to heart. I am Still using a cover 2x4 wood and a sand bag!! Recently purchase a tripod to use in a hunting situation.

[@andre1022c4]

Hey Brother, Happened to stumble upon your video and hope you’d be willing to hear some Feedback to help you along your journey. I’m an active PR match shooter. From the range video just some fundamental stuff that I saw one is keep your face on the gun and not lifting it up with each shot. What happens there is you end up shooting 5x 1 shot groups because every time you rebuild your position it’s a little different then the one before particularly with shifting and possible head position changes. Second is follow through after you break your shot; you’re jumping off the trigger and that can affect your accuracy as there is rifle movement before the bullet leaves the barrel and just a matter of consistency. Press, Break, and Freeze until you’ve seen the result of your shot helps with that follow through part. Next thing was a mechanical problem I noticed. At the range you had an atlas on the gun and not the accutac. If you notice the atlas was not at all square to the table and recoil is going to exploit that angle and on the last shot of the video here it looked like it about fell off so it might of been lose and your accuracy may have suffered because you were having some unintended movement there at the front. The guys from American Rifle Company estimate that 0.005” of movement at the shooter roughly equates to a half inch shift at 100 yds. Hopefully that’s helpful, ultimately, I’d say keep practice, it is a journey. You have super solid equipment so now just need to get yourself tuned up and maintain. I take at least one Precision Rifle Class each year because want to learn from different people, but ultimately get better at my craft. Sniper’s Hide Training Modern Day Sniper Rifles Only, Inc Ridgeline Defense CR2 Solutions K&M Training Complex Altus Are all facilities and/or traveling instructors I can recommend with utmost confidence. Cheers brother.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and give me a critique. Now I just need to copy it to my journal so I can use the information. I will definitely take a look at all of those trainers. Again, I do sincerely appreciate the critique it is very helpful.

[@andre1022c4]

@@armeddiver 100%, I’m on the journey too. You had the courage to put it out there and your making the effort. My goal is to be an instructor myself and want to be able to coach in a way that inspires and encourages growth as well. Looking forward to watching your progress as well.

[@armeddiver]

@@andre1022c4 Where are you located? I ask because if you do become an instructor, you have a client in me, if you are close enough.

[@bjornegan6421]

@@armeddiver I know you're not asking me, but i have an opinion and i just have to share it! this opinion is shunned in the shooting world, which is an indicator (just not what they assume). paying a bunch of money and going through a class can be very helpful. but, we have more information available now than ever before, for free. i would say before going to a course and potentially learning from the ground up and all from one source, seek some of the excellent information that can be found right here on youtube. Mark from mark and sam afterwork (controversial!) has some very decent fundamentals videos. he explains things well and doesn't buy into gimmicks (and a lot of military 'institutional inbreeding') that the gamer prs world so easily does. the army AMU has some great stuff on youtube for fundamentals as well. others such as Todd Hodnett, Bryan Litz, Eric Cortina are very knowledgeable. i tend to stay away from snipers hide as frank gali is a bit full of himself. he's very knowledgeable, but arrogant to the point he's argued (though people deny it) that he is THE expert and anyone who disagrees is a 'troll' and his fan club agrees. i have learned from him, but i think it's necessary to be even more critical when considering what he says. i know i'm a nobody. my background is a bit different than most. i think it's important to realize there are literally 10's of thousands of actual snipers out there and their knowledge and the way they were trained is not necessarily 'best'. 'yeah, but there isn't a 'best''.. yes there is. my point is this, the modern sniper guys will come up with things that people just eat up, like the whole 'don't grip the grip and do the 90* trigger thing with your thumb because that's the only way to have good trigger control..' and the free recoil trend. you know what both of those things are? they are 'techniques' to minimize flaws in fundamentals, they're bandaids for bad trigger control. so, when i see a 'trainer' (often big on social media) push the bandaids, i realize there are flaws in what they know, and it usually shows up. instead, i like to find people who realize the fundamentals are the most important and instead of creating bandaids, they have come as close to mastering the fundamentals as they can and offer their knowledge and opinions on it. these shooters are usually world-class shooters as in AMU, record holders in bullseye-style scored disciplines (f-class, palma, high-power), olympic and national shooters, etc. guys like Tubb. my entire point is this: learn what the fundamentals are, develop the fundamentals while learning how the best shooters apply the fundamentals (it's mostly mental). if you're good at the fundamentals, you're a good shooter. THEN learn the tricks the PRS guys use. not all the world-class shooters are that competitive in PRS. there are a lot of tricks and techniques that go into it that are more than the fundamentals. some of the bandaids become useful. some of the gamer things like carrying around couch cushions for support become very practical. but if that's the foundation of a person's shooting, they will not be a good shooter, even if they are decent ish at PRS. just an opinion.

[@RimfireAddicted70]

$100 says that rifle fell on the bench right after he cut the video on the last shot fired. The bipod was loose and walking forward each round, the last round it was completely off the rail. There is a couple things here to address. First I would suggest watching a few of the PRS videos where they teach how to "fit" the stock to you with a scope mounted. It was clear you were not comfortable mounting the rifle. Second, stop unmounting the rifle between shots, don't worry about the brass. Third, watch some videos on bipod use to see how to get the most repeatability out of them. Having the legs straight vertical is not ideal. There is a lot of fundamentals to master and it does take time, nothing comes without practice. If you asked a pro PRS guy he could probable list 100 things but maybe 20 are the most crucial. Have fun with it, learning is half the fun but take the time to learn the basics otherwise you're just throwing money and time away.

[@armeddiver]

You would have lost the $100.00. I noticed it before it crashed. Believe it or not, your critique and others that I have received give me another reason to continue making my videos. I sincerely appreciate being critiqued it is helpful. Now I need to write them down and go back to the range and practice them. Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and give me some pointers.

[@RimfireAddicted70]

@@armeddiver I sub'd to your channel because you're normal shooter like all of us at some point at the beginning of a learning process. I hope you continue to make more videos as you improve and show what helped you most improve so others may learn from you. Never give up the quest for more knowledge!

[@juliusjames5577]

I never figured out the disappointing part? Anybody with the patience to watch this can you tell me?

[@armeddiver]

I am just a petty old man, who would complain if he was given a Royals Royce and the paint was too dark. Now with that said, my disappointment was very petty and has been (or is being) fixed. My disappointment(s) were with the Patriot Valley Arms (PVA) Jet Blast muzzle brake, the TriggerTech Primary trigger, and the Accu-Tac bipod. The Jet Blast muzzle brake would not stay tight and after less than 20 rounds it would loosen up. I have traded it out for a VG6 Lambda PRS65, which is great and works the way its advertised. The TriggerTech trigger is an absolutely excellent trigger, 'but' it is a single stage and I am use to a two stage trigger. Being disappointed in the trigger is being super petty. I am fixing it, by learning to use it. The last thing I was disappointed in was the Accu-Tac bipod. This again is very petty, but Accu-Tac is heavy and when fully closed it is still a little too long for most of the shooting I do. I have been spoiled by my Atlas AT-10. Bottom line, I really am being a petty old man who should just appreciate what I am able to have rather than complain that things aren't exactly the way I want them.

[@oif3vetk9]

Nice build. There's some good advice in the comments here. Definitely focus on them and not the negative. Only things I'll throw in is dry fire train. Absolutely incorporate that. And, as for gear, you already have a bubble level on it so you understand the importance of that, may I suggest a Send It level? If you get to the point you think you want to get into say PRS shooting and time is a critical factor the Send It level is the way to go. (MDT offers it.) There are some PRS shooters who run MOA scopes. The biggest reason why PRS shooters run MRAD is less dialing. That's it. Yes, using MRAD does make conversation easier (post stage) when discussing if/how far you were off a target but in the end use what works for you. No need to reinvent the wheel. In the end the big thing to remember, have fun. If you get into PRS shooting you'll meet a ton of wonderful people and a lot of them are willing to help. (Whether it be advice, loan you gear on a stage etc) Have fun though. That's what it's all about.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for the info. I dry fire my handguns all the time, but I hadn’t thought to do that with my rifles. I will definitely start doing it. Getting into PRS is on my bucket list, but before I do that I really want to get some actual training and get the gun on an Extended range. Right now all I have available to me is an indoor 100 yd range. Again, thank you.

[@G5Hohn]

Friend, I can so much relate to this video. I've been in shooting for awhile now very enthusiastically and have a passion for it. That's not necessarily the same as expertise. After surveying your build and your results, I'll offer up the following: Strongly consider if you really do need the muzzle brake. You can probably handle 6.5 recoil better than you think, and brakes encourage both flinches and fatigue from the muzzle blast. My recommendation is: Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire some more. Dry fire that thing until you think the TT trigger will fail, then dry fire some more. I don't know what ammo you were shooting at the beginning, but even with an expensive Proof barrel you might not get sub-moa performance with just any factory load. Your rifle might just hate a particular load. To illustrate this point, the factory 147 ELD load from hornady was a train wreck in my rifle-- the 20 round box made a 3" group. I reloaded that brass with 147s-- same bullets, same brass, but my own powder and primers. Those 20 rounds made 4 groups that were each right at one inch and would have made a composite group about 1.5". So the groups where HALF the size just by handloading. I have no firsthand experience with Proof barrels other than seeing a couple at some matches when a casual PRS-style shooter bring a rifle to an F class match. In an F class scenario where the X ring is half moa, you will never see a carbon wrapped barrel from any maker on a purpose built F-class rifle. And this is despite having weight limitations in the two divisions that a lighter barrel would help meet. The heavy stainless barrels will run circles around the carbon wrapped barrels. For example, I recently rebarreled my 6.5 to a heavy stainless match style barrel from a highly respected barrel maker in WI. To break it in a little bit, I threw together the cheapest and lowest quality ammo humanly possible to handload. The bullets were 156 speer TMJs that are designed for milsurp Swedish Mausers. I loaded them in whatever brass I had lying around. I used a very modest charge of a powder I'm trying to use up because it's not a good accuracy powder. I didn't hand weigh each charge, just dropped and went. These throw together break-in loads were right at 1" for five shots. Group after group, 10 groups in. Every single one right at an inch. The composite group of FIFTY SHOTS was about 1.75". With the worst ammo I know how to make that's still safe. I've learned that a great barrel is not one that can shoot small, it's one that refuses to shoot big. A good barrel will shoot respectable groups with ANY ammo and once tuned with handloads it will blow your socks off with those tiny bugholes that are addicting. I'd recommend selling the Proof barrel (they are expensive and you'll get good cost recovery) and thread on a PVA prefit in solid stainless, made from a single point cut rifled blank like Brux, Broughton, or Bartlein. (the three Bs of barrel excellence). The heavy stainless barrel will add some weight, but your rifle will still come in at 15# or so, so it's not one of those 25# behemoths the PRS guys shoot. I'll recommend going long on the barrel too-- 28" or 30". Not because they are more accurate (they aren't) or because the extra speed matters (it's too small to matter). Rather, the extra length really cuts the muzzle blast down and makes shooting super enjoyable in the same way a .223 is more fun to shoot than a 6.5 and a 22LR is more fun than either because it's zero-stress. More weight means less recoil and longer barrel means less blast and more weight. It just makes for a much more enjoyable shooting experience. IME, it's well worth the extra pound or two if it's all in the barrel. Heck, if you don't want to sink a ton of money into trying a new barrel, get a heavy prefit Criterion from James at Northland Shooter Supply. Be sure to get the shouldered version and the 1.25" thickness blank. Make sure it's no lighter than the Varmint profile with Medium Palma or M24 being good choices. (Bull is lots more weight but not much help in accuracy or heat mgmt). I used the Heavy Palma and I love it. NSS has shouldered prefit barrels for $415 for your Zermatt action. You can cell your Proof for $500 and migrate for no money out of pocket.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and give me some advise. I have a lot to learn and a long way to go. If there is one thing that everyone, who knows anything at all about shooting is in absolute agreement on it is dry fire. There is absolutely no question that I need to spend much more time doing dry fire. I have shot a lot of different factory ammo, with Hornady Superformance 120 gr CX working the best. I have a magentoSpeed chronograph and I have learned from it, that if I want to get really consistent groups, I need to learn to reload and develop my own loads, but based on everything I can find I really need to take my time, do my research, and [learn] the proper way to do it. Again, thank you for watching the video and the advise, it is the only way I am going to learn.

[@G5Hohn]

@@armeddiver and thanks for your service, brother. Did 14 years myself.

[@matthewkyle6939]

@@G5Hohn in my experience brakes do not encourage flinching.

[@G5Hohn]

@@matthewkyle6939 it varies a lot with brake design. I'd agree that some brakes don't really have that effect.

[@prone_wolf8871]

Depends on the brake design.....and the fortitude of the person......my factory ammo and proof barrels shoot very small for me out to 1k.

[@maxsterling290]

So what is the answer for your questions at 4:15?? I watched the whole video and I don't see you answer, am I missing some part?

[@armeddiver]

My disappointment was total petty B.S. on my part. I changed out the muzzle brake. As for the trigger I have learned to use it. The gun is capable of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA with me behind it and Hornady Factory Ammo. With someone that knows how to shoot and tuned handloads, I am pretty sure it is capable of 1/4 to 1/2 MOA.

[@armeddiver]

You are welcome. I am glad you found something of value in the video.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. It is a great suggestion. The one thing I need more than anything else is time on the gun. FYI, the ammo was Hornady Match 140gr ELD. I haven’t gotten into hand loading yet.

[@jf7393]

Bipod practically falling off the rifle and way out of square. You’re also taking a coffee break and fiddling with your brass after every shot for no reason, and consequently rebuilding your firing position for every shot.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. The bipod issue, hopefully I have fixed. Next time I can get this gun to the range I will definitely heed your words. Again, thank you.

[@tompanek7511]

Yes start at the end of the barrel! Take that muzzle break off. Install a Eric Cortina EC tuner break. It will close up that crappy grouping..

[@armeddiver]

I have had a lot of suggestions on how to improve my grouping. You are at least the second or third to tell me to change the muzzle brake. I have also been told to change the barrel. I have changed the muzzle brake to a VG6 Lambda. I am not changing the barrel. The "crappy grouping" is more the shooter than the gun.

[@tompanek7511]

@@armeddiver absolutely keep that barrel. You will be much much more happy with the EC tuner break. Other than that a up grade on the trigger will also help with your groups. Good luck to you sir.

[@armeddiver]

@@tompanek7511 Thank you.

[@Oregon-airguns]

You need an airgun! You think I’m joking, but I’m really not. Or a precision .22lr Once I got into pcp airguns it completely changed everything… I’m a life long back yard shooter, but once I got into airguns I started shooting thousands of rounds working on technique and trigger control. Keep in mind, I’m not talking about Walmart specials lol… my “bb guns” will shoot under 1inch at 200 yards. They’re quiet, zero recoil, and cheap to shoot. I’ve probably spent 60+ hours behind the trigger this year. Little did I know all that trigger pulling absolutely translated over to pulling triggers on powder burners. Everyone has advice, I’m sure I sound like an idiot, take it or leave it. Just my 2 cents.

[@armeddiver]

Sir, you do not sound like an idiot. What you have posted is really good advice and I am very glad you posted. Whether anyone will admit it, I am absolutely positive your post will help many that haven’t thought about using a lower caliber to work on trigger pull, bag placement, etc. I envy you being able to be a backyard shooter. I am a suburbanite. I have to drive about 40 miles to get to a good 100 yd range, let alone something longer. Again, you are no idiot and I sincerely appreciate the post. Thank you 🙏.

[@vincedonze7841]

some people need to seek ADVICE from someone that actually know about what your trying to get involved in this guy seems to be more enamored by talking about who made the componets of the gun then actually learning what it takes to make it shoot accurately - you can't expect benchers accuracy with factory ammo

[@DJ-3551-1]

Very nice build, I would highly recommend you get the erik cortina ec tuner brake.

[@armeddiver]

I will gladly check it out. Thank you.

[@PLL1652]

Check out wolf precisions podcast on the fundamentals of marksmanship, you should pick up a few tricks to help tighten up your groups

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for the recommendation. I will take a look.

[@REDNECKROOTS]

Carbon fiber is for hunting rifles ware your shooting 3 r 4 shots max. You need to pit on a bull barrel steel for 20shot strings

[@armeddiver]

So I have been told by many.

[@bjornegan6421]

Just another internet expert here, but there are a few things that may help that I would like to share. I don't know your background or your knowledge or skill level and aside from only what is viewable in the clip of you shooting, I don't know what you're doing when shooting. so, my 73 cents of unsolicited advice.. having a shot process can be beneficial. essentially just making a checklist of fundamentals and a couple precision rifle things to apply to every shot. here's an example: 1. natural point of aim (do i have it or not, and, having a consistent contact with the gun for recoil/shot spotting/follow up, harmonics, and gun movement before the bullet leaves the gun (depending on the gun) is another part) 2. sight alignment (parallax, cheek weld, cant, scope shadow/eye in the proper place (elevation and windage)) 3. breathing 4. focus on reticle 5. trigger control (keep the trigger moving (people will say follow-through, but that is often misunderstood, break the trigger without moving the sights until after the bullet leaves the distant part of the gun and it's a good trigger manipulation)) each of those steps have quite a few things incorporated, but having a process helps in the effort of each shot being the best application of the fundamentals capable for the shooter. some of the other tips in the comments such as keeping your face on the gun aren't a fundamental, but they can help cover flaws in fundamentals, specifically, sight alignment. the most obvious 2 things from my example of a shot process I think would help from watching the shooting clip is natural point of aim and breathing. shooting from a bench can be as solid a position as you can get ('benchrest'). just making an assumption from what i saw, but the position in the clip may have benefited from a bit more setup. if you can get the rifle dead on without your continual input (not counting proper usage of squeezing a rear bag), that's a decent position. if you can get the rifle to be like that and get your body to be in a position that is repeatable and easy to maintain, it is even better. it seemed you were actively supporting and aiming the gun. the bag could have been better used. it may be worth adjusting the gun setup a bit too as far as length of pull and scope placement. second to the stable position is having one where recoil would be straight rearward. listening to your breathing, it reminded me of when i've shot in very uncomfortable positions. comfort is not a fundamental, but it can lead the shooter to compromise, which I know i do when not comfortable. Again, I do not know your ability and knowledge level, so i'm of course assuming and perhaps lower than I should. A friend of mine always shot high expert in the Marine Corps. he ended up putting together a rifle and was expecting to shoot 1 hole groups but couldn't manage anything less than 5 or so inch groups. the gun and ammo were capable. it can be surprising how different it is to shoot sub moa on a nice gun than to shoot high scores on a military type qual. fundamentals are fundamentals, but we tend to see our fundamentals a bit more overtly in this kind of situation.. thanks for the video. it's obvious you put a lot of thought into that gun. hope the disappointment turns around.

[@johnh4957]

I got that the muzzle brake needs tightening and you need time on the trigger and scope is in moa not mil and stock doesn't fit quite right to attach folding part but I didn't catch why it's disappointing?

[@armeddiver]

It really isn’t. It is just taking some time to learn. It is capable of sub-MOA at 100 yds pretty basic hunting loads. With Horandy Match 140 ELD it is capable of less than 1/2 MOA.

[@tylerhensley2312]

How can you set up a scope without bore sighting it first?

[@armeddiver]

I don't know. How do you setup a scope without bore sighting it first? I boresight all my rifles.

[@thomasholmes9765]

Enjoy the whole process . . . Practice ... Patience ... Fiddle ... Practice ... Patience ... Fiddle and repeat until you get where you accept the limitations of your own "man & machine interface" experience affords you. It's not a science . . . it's an acquired art

[@armeddiver]

Thank you sir. Positive encouragement is always a good thing. Again, thank you.

[@GRANTDEFENSE]

Machined blanks > Prefits. Target Crown > Threaded w/ Muzzle Device. Bed your stock/chassis to your action with Marine-Tex. If you want to remove the human element and find out what groups your rifle actually shoots, get it into a benchrest vice, ideally on a day that doesn't have 10-15mph wind.

[@armeddiver]

I am just a hobbyist. The gun you are describing is more gun than I will ever have.

[@GRANTDEFENSE]

@@armeddiver From seeing what you have built here, you really aren't far off at all. A blank from Bartlein or Krieger machined for your action would likely cost less than or equal to what you paid for a Proof carbon pre-fit. We use Bartlein blanks, which retail for about 400-450, and to chamber, map, index, crown, polish throat and install, it is 550. A target crown should not cost more than barrel threading, usually the fee is the same, it is with us. We charge 250 to bed a stock / chassis. Considering proof pre-fits run about 1000, your only cost difference should be the cost to bed your action to your chassis. Carbon wrapped barrels are nice because they're light, but that is truly the sole benefit. Carbon fiber is a poor conductor of heat, so with continued fire, your steel core is going to get hotter quicker, and you'll see the effects of that downrange. If you're wanting to shoot a few dozen rounds in an afternoon, a steel barrel with a heavier profile is the way to go.

[@armeddiver]

@@GRANTDEFENSE Thank you. I really appreciate the advice.

[@michaelhill6451]

If you're not happy with your groups, one thing I would suggest is buying a ratchet strap or a board and some clamps to put across the front of the bench. Your bipod was jumping when you were shooting because you weren't able to pre-load it. If you use a ratchet strap or a board, you can push into the bipod and get much more consistent movement of the gun under recoil (and smaller groups). I'm just telling you this because I personally struggled with this problem and wish someone had told me what I was doing wrong years ago.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for the comment. That is a huge suggestion that I had not thought about and it makes so much sense. FYI there were pins in the Area419 ACRA mount on the bipod that prevented it from being securable to the ACRA mount on the gun. Another viewer told me about the pins and I took them out. Now that the bipods stay attached. I am definitely going to take your advise tie-down/pre-load the bipod. I am excited to see what my results are. Again, thank you for the comment.

[@michaelhill6451]

@@armeddiver No problem. If you want a deep dive on bipod loading considerations, I suggest looking up the video done by Mark and Sam After Work on the subject. It's called "Shooting with a Bipod on a Bench". Preloading made a huge difference for me. When done properly, it feels like you are getting a push straight back, rather than having the gun jump off target which usually requires you to readjust your shooting position (repositioning the bipod and/or rear bag). So it not only reduces your group size but makes for faster follow up shots and/or spotting your own hits at longer ranges.

[@armeddiver]

@@michaelhill6451 Thank you. Will do.

[@recklessjunkie]

I seen that thing jump off the table about an inch in the air as you took that first shot. So maybe try putting some weights on that thing yes they are expensive but that might be your problem it’s just to lightweight for the recoil you’re getting from that cartridge

[@mattchilders3123]

Very nice build sir. Good luck learning to shoot long distance. Lot of good schools out there.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. I am going to look.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you

[@wilee7572]

Is that an Area 419 Arca clamp on the Atlas? If so is it a toothed/notched arca rail? The 419 clamp comes with steel pins installed for the toothed rail. If using the 419 clamp on a smooth arca rail you need to remove the pins or it won’t stay tight. Use a little Red loctite #272 on the brake (brarrel threads only).

[@armeddiver]

This is the reason I make the videos. Thank you for the advise. You are correct about the Area 419 Arca clamp. I have two of the clamps and based on your advise, I just went and took the pins out of both the clamps. I can already tell the difference in grip just putting it back on the gun. As for the muzzle brake, I changed it to a VG6 Lambda PRS65. No Loctite required. I also think it works better. Again, a very sincere thank you for the advise. I can't wait to get to the range to see how well the 419 clamp works.

[@efrenbrito]

@@armeddiver That PVA brake you had on there is a good one. It shouldn't have affected anything.

[@armeddiver]

@@efrenbrito Everyone says it is a great brake, but I have tried it on three different guns and it will not stay tight and timed.

[@efrenlbrito]

@@armeddiver Interesting. As with any newly installed brake or suppressor, I always double check that it's on there nice and tight after a few shots. Did you use wrenches to tighten the brake down? Hand tight won't work.

[@armeddiver]

@@efrenlbrito I changed the brake. I am using an RD6 from Areo Precision and it works no issues and no wrenches involved.

[@thomashernandez8601]

I am appreciating your transparency especially with all the false claims from KZbin experts just trying to sell their products. What hand grip is that?

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for the compliment. The grip is an Anarchy Outdoors - Tuxcedo Precision Rifle Grip

[@magic4221]

Ok,you have a nice build, but, you have a stability issue. Check out long shot precision adjustable bag rider. Your groups will improve every day. Also lower your trigger pull to less than 1.5 lb. Enjoy.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. I will check them out.

[@lawrencehawk5179]

So I bought a Green Mountain 17" barrel for my 10/22, a match grade bolt & a trigger kit for a little over 300 dollars. Shoot amazing even with bulk ammo.

[@armeddiver]

That is great. It sounds like it would be a fun gun to shoot.

[@lawrencehawk5179]

@@armeddiver yep, the 22 IS the best rd ever made. Just wondering what kinda rifles they had during the 1800s.

[@armeddiver]

@@lawrencehawk5179 That Is a question I can’t answer.

[@lawrencehawk5179]

@@armeddiver yah, not many videos on the 1st 22 rifles out there. Be great to see though.

[@user-yr5ee9vm9e]

get rid of that barrel get a Brux Bartlien, or kreiger

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. I will take a look at both.

[@MidwestPlinkster]

Heavy Trigger. If you want to get into prs time to get comfy with it lower. My prs rifle is set to a little over 3 ounces.

[@armeddiver]

I don’t know if I will ever actually get into PRS. I just enjoy building and learning. What I need is training. Right now I am looking in my area (NE Ohio), but haven’t found anything close enough yet, but I am still looking.

[@MidwestPlinkster]

@@armeddiver ahh your a ways from me otherwise I would say I offer training.

[@armeddiver]

@@MidwestPlinkster Thank you for the thought. I appreciate people who provide constructive advise and are willing to help. Again, thank you.

[@halfdollar86]

If you are wanting an accurate rifle it is my strong opinion you need to use a heavy profile steel barrel and not a carbon fiber. Carbon fiber wrapped barrels as well as thin profiles open up when after a few shots.

[@armeddiver]

Most of my disappointment was caused by my own inability from a lack of training and practice. I changed out the bipod for an Atlas BG10 and the muzzle brake for an Areo Precision VG6 Lambda PRS65, which were huge improvements for me. I am training myself to learn the single stage trigger. With Hornady Match 140gr ELD I can get 1/2 MOA groups with a bipod and bag from the bench and 100 yds. The Accu-Tac bipod and PVA muzzle brakes are both supposed to be superior items and they both have very strong supporters. I did not have good luck with either. Someday I will take some time and do some research to see if I can get the PVA muzzle brake to stay on. I am sure that from the ground the Accu-Tac bipod can be useful. It is currently my favorite gun in my most favorite caliber.

[@halfdollar86]

@@armeddiver awesome. I have several factory target rifles but looking to do my first custom this fall. Hope it all works out.

[@armeddiver]

@@halfdollar86 If you have the money and are looking for a good action, I am a big fan of the Zermatt TL3 action with a Proof Research Prefit barrel.

[@theoracleprodigy]

@@armeddiver just came here to say the same thing as half dollar. Watch even the best shooters out there on other channels. Carbon fiber barrels are not accurate. As soon as they warm up the point of impact moves. Also don't worry about weight on a precision riffle. It's good to have them weigh more, and often precision shooters will add steel weights to the handguard. They want a gun that doesn't move and since they are not hunting weight is good to have.

[@armeddiver]

@@theoracleprodigy Thank you for the comment. When I built this gun (and others) everything I saw indicated that the carbon fiber barrel would dissipate heat better than an all steel barrel and thus extend the barrel life. Knowing that groupings will open up as the barrel heats up might help explain why my AR10, 6.5 CM with a steel 24” barrel is getting better grouping [and] better velocities. I am getting almost 100 fps more velocity out of the AR10 than this gun. Again, thank you for commenting.

[@michaeldavidolson]

You should come to one of my long range classes we go out to 1350 I would help you figure out everything. I am by southern Minnesota

[@armeddiver]

Do you have a website?

[@wilee7572]

Move the bubble level to the front ring old man. No way you can see it while on the gun back there. Also ignore the level inside 700, your internal level is all thats needed shooting 2 moa steel. Farther out + small targets the level is worth a glance.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for the advise. I will move the level forward. Thank you for pointing it out. I don't know I why I have it mounted behind the turrets on this gun. Again, thank you.

[@1RobHunter1]

Join a reloading and shooting club and do some range time with some of the old timers.

[@armeddiver]

Good advise. Right now I am between residences. I will take a look and see what I can find in my home area. Thanks.

[@Sanwizard1]

Nice build.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. I built an almost identical gun in 6mm ARC. Both guns a lot of fun to shoot.

[@JM_BoltActionGunStuff]

Maybe try bag rider and let the stock be in bag and only squaze bag for elevation....

[@armeddiver]

Excellent idea. I will try that. Thank you.

[@sms9106]

Don't forget to give us an update.

[@armeddiver]

I have to ask for forgiveness. This gun has been to a 100 yd range exactly five times including the range trip depicted in this video. Think about someone who owns a Classic Ferrari, but never drives it because he doesn't know how to drive a standard. That would be me, only its not a car, its a gun. I haven't found a range around me that is longer than 100 yds nor have I found any training on precision shooting.

[@NBKarmwrestling]

​@@armeddiver There is precision rifle training everywhere man. Just gotta look

[@Photodiver7]

@@NBKarmwrestling It is my plan to look in the spring. Right now is not exactly the best time up here in NE Ohio.

[@JM_BoltActionGunStuff]

My 6.5cr tikka tac a1 likes scenar handloads. My t3x lite likes handloads and my sako A2 likes handloads. Always try handloads before selling your gun.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. Believe me, I am not selling the gun. The gun is capable of far greater accuracy and range than I am personally capable of shooting it. What I need is to get some actual training using this gun. I also need to find a range where I can put it out to at least 600 meters.

[@balazra]

It sounds like you really enjoy the building side. Have you thought about gun smithing? It seems something you could really get into and if you think the actual rifles have a lot of options wait until you try and choose a reemer ;) One of the best bits of advice I ever got was start small and work up. With this sport it has helped me and many others move quickly though the learning curve. .22lr is a brilliant training tool. Shoot it a lot and it is very cheap. Start at 50m move to 100, 150, and then you’ll need to start worrying about cant and other aspects of long range shooting like wind calls and where the transonic stages are for your round. I was shooting .22lr out to 300m and grouping far before I really picked up a .223 seriously. I went to my local shooting club and people were very helpful showing me many different options and it allowed me to try many different this and see what I wanted to purchase. I started with a basic factory bolt action rifle. I chose a $150 mildot 4-16x40 scope. That set up took me out to repetitively hitting at 800m on a 12”x12” plate off a sand bag. I finally upgraded my scope (really only for a better reticle) now I use a laddered reticle. That finally got me consistent past the 800m. I switched to a very similar set up but with a .243 AI. I’ve started learning more with this cartridge and it’s still a lot of fun. If you want to shoot I hope you find the time to slow the building and stick with a single rifle with no changes to start enjoying shooting for what it is. Sometimes options close the door to learning.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you the advise. I do sincerely appreciate it. You are absolutely correct about enjoying “the building side.” When I was a kid I use to build model cars, now as an old retired guy its guns. I do want to learn how to shoot; however, right now because my wife is working and we are going between two houses, one in Alexandria, VA and the other in Cleveland Heights, OH, it’s been difficult finding time and a good course in either state. Again, thank you for watching and for the advise. It is much appreciated.

[@cameronchisholm7192]

What kind of groups are you getting out of it?

[@armeddiver]

Much more than a MOA, but it isn't the gun. Its the shooter.

[@taffbats]

Might help to secure your bipod!!!!!.... at 2.23min looks like it falls off!

[@armeddiver]

You are absolutely correct. I need to really watch it. On an Arca rail it will walk off the end.

[@treece1]

Thread tape? Wrench torch,

[@timbcf]

Gee wiz get comfortable and on target before racking a round, never trust a safety!

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. You are absolutely correct and something that need to pay more attention too. I wish others had pointed that out to me sooner. Again, a sincere thank you. Comments like yours help to make me a better and hopefully safer shooter.

[@ellissmithjr6599]

Do you have a crush washer behind the muzzle break?

[@armeddiver]

No, there is no crusher washer. It is a self-timing break, you don’t use a washer.

[@ellissmithjr6599]

@@armeddiver Ok... I only have the crush washer with mine,Never had issues of it slipping or moving.👍😎

[@djrikk214]

I was waiting until the very end to hear the disappointment, as I am about to dive in to a build. I think the title is off

[@armeddiver]

In all honesty, the disappointment is really not with the gun, but with my personal ability to use it. My real love is in the [building] of the gun. I am an old retired guy and I really want to take a couple of courses in long range shooting. Unfortunately, right now because of my wife’s job, I am between two locations. Once it settles down and I am at home, which is Cleveland, Ohio, I am going to seriously look for courses.

[@djrikk214]

@@armeddiver best of luck! I am excited for my build.

[@jerryfischer8821]

You appear to be shooting factory ammo, sorry but most of it will only shoot 1 moa or better, you should look into custom rounds I have seen Tx ammunition, and Copper Creek cartridge, they have several options you should look into .

[@armeddiver]

THANK YOU! That is great information. I have never hear of either company. I will take a look at both companies. Again, a very sincere thank you 🙏.

[@nospam3409]

Okay, you didn’t care for the optic. Not a big deal. Sell it and buy a different scope. If you like a good 2 stage trigger, you'll never find a single stage trigger that makes you happy. Those groups weren't very good, BUT with your technique and the fact that its factory ammo, that level of accuracy is somewhat expected. Get a rear bag, and a decent front rest. Find someone that can help you adjust the rifle to fit you, and position the scope correctly. Adjust the gun to you, not you to the gun. Thats the whole point of spending money on any kind of adjustable stock. Maintain your cheek weld during the string. Learn about natural point of aim. All of this, when properly applied should have that rifle shooting most factory ammo into sub moa groups. That said, sub moa sucks for that rifle. If you're normally shooting 1" groups with factory ammo, you need to start hand loading so you know when the problem is you, when the problem is the rifle, and ehen the problem is the ammo. If you and the rifle normally shoot 1/2" or better at 100 yds, and you try a new powder or bullet and your groups open up, you'll know its not you or the rifle.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for taking the time to give me a critique. I do sincerely appreciate it. I am going to put your words to practice as soon as I can.

[@nospam3409]

@@armeddiver I forgot to say the most important part. Have fun 😉

[@armeddiver]

@@nospam3409Thank you.

[@pookie12222]

Watched this whole video to figure out what exactly was disappointing with this guys build. The only thing I can come up with is this guy can’t shoot and he must be disappointed in his ability. He has in the neighborhood of 6-7000 dollars in this setup and expects he can buy tighter groups. Here is the reality my guy, spend time behind the gun and get better. The whole video is him explaining the bits and pieces he put on the build, not what makes this so disappointing. Waste of time, a waste of money, and he is probably already started on his next build because it isn’t about an accurate rifle, it’s about him showing off the ridiculous amount of money he has in these things and still wonder why he can’t get groups under an MOA at 100yards. Keep shooting bud, you may get there eventually if you understand it’s about developing technique instead of trying to buy small groups.

[@armeddiver]

You seem frustrated with what you saw in my video. I am sorry. As for my abilities as a shooter. Let me say this. It is NEVER the tool. It is ALWAYS the user of the tool. For the record, the gun depicted in this video is capable of far greater accuracy than my capability to shoot it. As to my actual ability you have already drawn your opinion. As for my disappointment, I am pretty sure I explained in the video what I was disappointed in.

[@1clnsdime1]

Use the bag to raise the rear of your rifle. You are resting your hand on the bag and lifting the rifle. There is no way u are stable. Shooting groups, if ur not steady the the retical 100 percent settled the don't pull the trigger. U will get it. But do not touch the gun just the bag only.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. I appreciate the critique.

[@plt228]

You have good components. They just need to be set up for you. Spend your time and money on quality training and you will see improvement. Also take that Remington Core-Lok crap and throw it in the trash. Those and precision should never be in the same sentence. Stick with Hornady and Federal Gold Medal Match

[@armeddiver]

LOL 😅I used up all the Core-Lok. It was good for giving me something besides the match ammo to get use to the gun and trigger. I am going to stick to Hornady. I would love to get some training. Right now though I am between locations NE Ohio and NE Virginia. I am hoping to get a good class somewhere next spring. Thanks for watching and for the advise.

[@rickkamolnik1754]

You need to learn how to hand load. Also believe none of what you hear and 1/2 of what you see. There’s plenty of people providing the wrong information, or their opinion. Stop building rifles and educate yourself on shooting correctly. Money can buy all the great parts however it can’t buy you experience.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you for the comment. Before I learn to reload, I need to learn to shoot. I am looking for some good training in my area and then a range with some distance. Right now I am limited to the 100 yd range you saw in the video. Again, thank you for the comment.

[@SpudOutdoors]

Area 419 brake and never look back

[@noellasure4063]

Take the money for your next build, don't buy any parts, go take a class. Check out training from Rifles Only or Frank Galli (snipers hide). Run what ya have and learn what works and what doesn't.

[@armeddiver]

Thank you. I appreciate the suggested trainers. I will definitely check them out. Again, thank you for commenting.

[@trevort8388]

Strongly recommend Pete Gould from Accuracy First. In my humble opinion the best in the business.

[@armeddiver]

@@trevort8388 Thank you I will definitely check them out.

[@trevort8388]

@@armeddiver no worries. If you can physically do it I would recommend testing that configuration with an atlas cal bipod and rear bag shooting from the prone. Much more accurate than bench rest. Just about any modern barrel and action should perform sub-moa with match amp at 100 meters if the shooter has solid fundamentals.

[@armeddiver]

@@trevort8388 Thank you. I will try prone. I haven’t shot prone with a rifle since I was a young troop in the Army.

[@2Boutdoors]

aim small miss small..

[@bobgantt8782]

Sound's like a bunch of sales crape. Need to learn your equipment first.

[@armeddiver]

You need to have it before you can learn it. Sorry that you thought it was a “bunch of sales crap.” Please be advised I bought everything in this gun. I am not sponsored by anyone and please feel free to not watch my channel, thank you very much.

[@magicdinsmore3107]

Yep, lots of money but no talent.

[@armeddiver]

You are correct. I have absolutely no training or experience in long distance shooting. However, I love to build guns and that is what this was really about.

[@magicdinsmore3107]

@@armeddiver I'm not trying to be an ass but unfortunately the combination of money before experience rarely works. You're old enough to know this as much as I do. Anyway, good luck on your endeavors.

[@jhenrylee3798]

Find another hobby.

[@armeddiver]

Nope. I like this one.

[@rotasaustralis]

You must have forgotten to tell us why you're not happy with the build. Since you didn't get round to telling us, I can only assume that you're not overly happy with the repeatability of the rifle, at least from the target you show at the beginning of the vid. Ofcourse, we don't know how many groups or the conditions at the time but, going by the wind in the mic & the bushes in the background, that target was shot in some pretty gnarly conditions. Not only was the wind quite strong, I'm guessing 30 to 45 KPH but, the wind was very gusty. Gusting wind will really shit can your groups. I wouldn't be too critical of the rifle in those conditions.