Discipleship - The Shepherding Movement and Kip McKean

[@pamelawhite3632]

I was in a church that was in the shepherding movement in Kalamazoo, Michigan. I got out after a couple of years but it did a lot of damage in me for a long time. The women especially were under tremendous pressure and control.

[@tedthought]

It is sad how much they ruin people rather than help

[@Armygirl4Christ]

We were caught up in it in East Lansing. The church led into the Shiloh Fellowship and took it to a whole deeper level. Much damage and when those who left, they were considered outcasts and rebels against God. We were shunned and judged by those who stayed and treated like unbelieving lepers. Years of recovery from the brainwashing and control and harm. 😢

[@AJ-ss5te]

Was it bill Michelle’s church?

[@SpeculativeEschatologist]

The point of discipline was to teach people how to live in new covenant communities. The problem with the expression of the discipling that I was in was that emancipating disciples was overlooked. Jesus emancipated His disciples after 3 years of training. Apostle Paul trained the Ephesian disciples for three years, and left. When he saw the Ephesian elders in Miletus, be told them to watch each other. Proper Christian discipleship enables people to relate to each other in a way that pleases and glorifies God. And it can produce elders who oversee the flock of God without lording over it.

[@tedthought]

I totally agree with this. But even if the movement did follow your advice (which I believe is very important first step) there still needs to be better training of disciples, helping them to recognize and avoid unhealthy controlling patterns. There are so many other issues also that would need to be addressed.

[@faithgirl8844]

Wow..been through something very similar. Except I was one of the victims that sexual assault happened to due to this “Shepard” I was suppose to listen to and obey and as I obeyed God was going to bless me. Started when I was 18. I left thank God after 16years now just trying to piece my life together. It’s crazy! In spite of all the crazy - I still have a heart for God. Just working on healing because my self esteem, confidence, and identity was ALL rooted in what the “shepherd” said about me and how faithful I was in the church. So much of my identity was rooted in that church that when I did build up enough courage to leave - well they all but kicked me out. I struggled a lot with loneliness, depression, fearing “God” was going to strike dead, that I was going to fail, or yeah and that I missed God and nothing will work out for me bc I left the arc of safety. WOW! Just sad, heart breaking and crazy. This video was enlightening.

[@iam4TINT]

I know where you are at and what you've had to go through. But, "who the Son sets free is free indeed". We have been called to liberty in Christ. Yes, we need one another and guidance of leadership, but not lordship and control. May God grant you healing and lead you to a group of faithful believers who worship in spirit and in truth.

[@TimothyTitus1000]

This was an awesome insight into the shepherding movement. Loved your style of delivery as well. Thank you

[@tedthought]

Thanks

[@richardmillar2412]

They took attendance at midweek and made sure you gave your agreed (coerced) weekly contribution! You were encouraged (browbeaten) to walk in the light -scheduled confession to a discipleship partner! Somehow, your confidential confession worked it’s way up the leadership ladder. What a nightmare the Boston Church was!

[@erictheviking]

Thanks for explaining this so eloquently. I encountered the "me, my fiance and bob" situation whereby a certain Bob advised her to end it off with me for absurd reasons. And for a period of time, she actually sided with 'Bob'. Thankfully by the grace of God, her eyes were opened and she left that church in the end. Sad to say, Shepherding movement / 'charismatic witchcraft' is truly well and alive to this day! On a side note, I acknowledge I fall short & agree that accountability is important to a certain degree. "hey how's your walk with God so far?" "been praying much this week?" . But not to a controlling extent!

[@glennrobinson7193]

eriktheviking ▪ Accountability, really? to man? I beg to differ. Nowhere can I find in the bible even the hint of the idea that we have to be "accountable" to any office of a man.

[@erictheviking]

@@glennrobinson7193 sounds like you've had a bitter experience. why not see accountability as encourage and build up one another rather than someone going all North Korea over you

[@KJ-lb4tj]

​@@glennrobinson7193all the one another's .. Just being in community, just simple things like confess your sins to one another, exhort one another, build one another up, love one another, serve one another. Unfortunately coming week after week to say I didn't manage to sort that issue and feeling shame over and over and then starting to hide the issue is how it often works out because it's not two way equal vulnerability.

[@Fredericko-k7p]

​​@@glennrobinson7193Exactly. You're only accountable for what God reveals by his word and Blessed Spirit. We ought not to pry into people's private lives nor put them under any duress to confess anything sins or otherwise unless they get liberty

[@glennrobinson7193]

@@Fredericko-k7p Yes I agree with you. I like the way you put it. In early 1980s, I made that mistake of "accountability" to an "ordained" 'shepherd' of the flock. I got duped into opening up to a "trusted leader" to confessing a secret sin. I learned from that experience to never trust in man. No bitter feelings, just lesson learned.

[@fuerton1]

I appreciate your message, you come across as if these two movements have dwindled and are no more, actually they are thriving quite well and the membership continues to grow rapidly particularly the ICC where Kip is in complete control, the ICOC still follow most of the things they did in the past which is what the ICC is doing only they are much more low key about it but those that were members before the Krete letter and stayed members continue to slowly push control and pass this on to new members, even the congregations that consider themselves more "progressive".

[@tedthought]

I appreciate your feedback. I have not followed Kip much recently. I know he rebuilt his church, but not much more than that. I am also aware that the Shepherding movement has moved on, but it's basics continue within many circles. So my knowledge of these things is only vague and not up to date.

[@thegolfbois1350]

It was beyond high demands. It was total and absolute control over one's life.

[@jeffandsherriefranzwa8970]

I was part of the shepherding movement between about 1975 and 1984, then with a church which pulled back from much of the control, but which dealt with remnants of it for years. You talked about people leaving the shepherding movement. Some of that happened in the early days, until they began teaching about covenant. The idea there was that God has a covenant with us that He would never fail to honor, so we, in order to be Christ-like, should always be faithful to our covenant commitment. I was in the Charles Simpson stream of Covenant/Shepherding, and in my experience it was leaders who began to pull away from control over themselves which "broke the dam" and caused many to flee. Unwise, power-drunk, often young leaders made basic life decisions for people which often turned out badly, handicapping or wrecking lives. Thankfully, this life is just a moment compared to eternity when God will personally make and keep everything right.

[@pearl2705]

Thank you so much for explaining this in under 13 minutes. I came here from one of Minister Kevin LA Ewing's videos, as he told many churches adopted the shepherding movement like subscribing to coverings, subscribing to church rules and policies that is against the Word of God and therefore disobedience. I'm just so glad I'm free from these "demands" while not carrying the 'guilt' of leaving these practices! God bless you sir.

[@Yet333]

How do you feel about Kevin LA?.. watched some of his vids... didn’t get a good vibe.. felt like his content and making $$$ was more important than helping others. Also the extreme emphasis on dreams felt sketchy. Please share.

[@cliffconti1133]

The Discipleship movement when lead by responsible leaders was the best thing that happened to me. We were not dictated to. We all grew together. A few years ago we had a 40th anniversary of the church that is still alive. So many were still living for Jesus, marriages strong, etc.My wife and I met together and it was the best foundation for what is 45 years together. You wouldn't believe this as you already have your own opinion. Sure there were problems but we had great friends and leaders.

[@dalbert-cv2dk]

I was part of a discipleship church. It was a very unhealthy experience. Wives were treated more like children than partners. At one point, the women in the church were ordered to clean the pastor's house. Mind you, the pastor's wife didn't work outside the home and didn't have any children. The men were ordered to mow the lawn , do house maintenance, and do other yard work as needed. This arrangement didn't last long. The church evolved into a cultlike environment. This movement did a lot of damage to believers. I never want to see this movement revived again.

[@tedthought]

Unfortunately, it has evolved in a lot of different churches and takes different forms as people are to obey their apostles and prophets.

[@Turquoise_Chain]

I was part of the ICOC from 94 till 2003, you speak the truth my friend.

[@ryankittle3431]

Can confirm the shepherding movement is still alive…

[@user-kq5qp6dh8l]

Really!

[@sarapohjola2765]

Thank you...there's so much I want to say...God led me out of this movement this past week. I know I learned foundational things but there's so much potential damage to new believers in this movement...Im just in some ways so speechless, and sit quietly in reflection of it and more than anything I believe God allowed me almost 2 years in this church so I could see what happens when you submit to anyone other than Christ.

[@tedthought]

I'm glad you got out. I think short term discipleship (not the kind where leaders dominate every area of your life) can be good; but abuse seems to take over so easily.

[@sarapohjola2765]

@@tedthought I did need some level of mentorship but yes there is control to the point if abuse. Telling people they are disobedient if they dont do what their leader says and the leader is appointed to be their covering so if you leave you will lose your protection....as if they themselves are God.

[@tedthought]

@@sarapohjola2765 So, why did you leave?

[@sarapohjola2765]

@@tedthought because I know I belong to Christ....not a church movement or a Pastor. I had been praying for about 2 months about it and the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and I felt a release in my spirit. Salvation is free, Gods love is free thats why its good news. Jesus didn't die on a cross so I could be in bondage in a church. I also had a very difficult time forming relationships at this church because of all the leaders meddling and also the people were very vulnerable and desperate which is how cults get people, by meeting needs of the people who most desperate. I did have moments of fear that my life would fall apart if I left the "covering", but I knew that was indoctrination, not God and God doesn't give us a spirit of fear.

[@tedthought]

@@sarapohjola2765 You are very insightful - no doubt the Holy Spirit guided you. Fear of leaving is common in most groups - some far more than others.

[@unclemark4206]

Found this inspiring, there is also a part 1 on you tube. Glad to see humility here regarding the Int Churches of Christ. Good history too.

[@wrightspiano]

When Jesus told the disciples to go into all the world and make disciples he wasn't telling them to make disciples of Peter, disciples of John, disciples of James etc. He was telling them to make disciples of Jesus. The difference is huge! Paul said that he was glad that he didn't baptize very many because he didn't want anyone saying "I am of Paul". Do you think you can be a disciple of Jesus without a personal accountability partner who wants you to confess your sins and shortcomings to them? Do you think you can be a disciple of Jesus by reading His word, fellowshipping with a congregation, listening to others at a safe and appropriate distance or do you need to make yourself as vulnerable to a man as you do to God? I have discovered that I can't trust men like I can trust God. Any men. The Bible says there is just one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. My pastor doesn't get that job. It's above his pay grade. 😀 Thanks for reading!

[@simplyafederalist]

My parents were under Bob Mumfered at 4th street in Cocoa Beach, FL. My parents were under good people and never got hurt or burned. However they both saw the damage that happened to friends who had bad leaders. A big issues is you have a twenty somethings who had only been following Jesus for a few years in charge of discipling a small group. They had no business being a leader and having that kind of Authority over people. So they left a path of decructutiom.

[@tedthought]

good point about young people leading, but even older people can be misleading people as well, but usually more seasoned.

[@simplyafederalist]

@@tedthought I dont disagree. But per my Dad in their Church. That caused more problems than anything. But any church leader who basicly treat adults as they would there own flesh and blood kids when they were in preschool or elementary school has seroius issues. But any Christian movement or demonition can give rise to corrupt and abusive leaders. Over stepping bibical bonderies and not understandings the limits of authority you have been given is ramped in Churches today. I think its root cause is poor church governance and giving to much power to to few people. But that is a complety diffrent subject.

[@tedthought]

@@simplyafederalist good thoughts

[@abrahamjangindra3748]

GOD LOVES YOU AND ME AMEN+ JESUS LOVES THE WORLD.

[@susanfox6666]

Thank you for clarifying this. I was around in those days (early Christian), so I listened to lots of tapes about this. I'd heard that Derek had "repented." I used to have several of his books and old tape series, and even found a lot of his good teachings on YT. Listened to all in the past year or so and felt "wrong" somehow. Pitched out his books months ago with a total purge of everything but my Bibles and Bible reference books. Hellsong related CD's went too. I do believe that was a "God thing," because too many things have been or are being written and preached and sung in His Name that are not Biblical. Thank you for informing us that apparently no real "repentence" happened for Derek. At least it didn't sound like the real deal to me as you described it. I've had to sincerely repent for everything I took in that I followed over the decades, and that involved a lot of pain. That's why we have to be careful who we follow and what the BIBLE actually teaches. Unfortunately, too many don't want to or don't make time to actually study for themselves. As sheep, all of us are easy prey, and need to check everything out no matter how much we like someone or might have been helped by their ministry in the past. Never forget--there are no perfect preachers. We DO have a perfect God who left us His Word on any subject that concerns godly living.

[@tedthought]

I like!

[@andyusfca]

I was in ICOC back in 1999-2002. I only heard of the discipling movement, but not shepherding Movement. But, I think they are just the same thing. Back in those days, the "discipler" or Shepherding thing has already been falling apart. Lot of members who are in discipling someone simply do not have the knowledge or maturity to do so. Also, ICOC seem to attract a lot of wrong personalites to become disciplers. People who cannot succeed in life, social rejects, or society losers are trying to find comfort or success in ICOC, and when they are put into the position of discipler, bad things happen.

[@user-kq5qp6dh8l]

I was caught up in this Pentecostal shepherding movement! Done untold damage to my walk and life, I’m still not right though it. Oh ! I’m off on holiday! Well! We ( the head honchos ) will have to have a word with God before we give the green light😵‍💫

[@LiveandLaughwithLinda-jy7po]

We were in the Shepherding/ Discipleship movement from 1973 - 1987. We were under the Charles Simpson group 3 levels down. (Yes, we sometimes call it the Amway church). We were moved to Mobile Alabama in 1980 which is what we also sometimes refer to as the Vatican of the whole movement. At one time all the 5 leaders lived there except for Derek Prince. It was a lot of things. Designed to create accountability and order in the charismatic movement, which was quite frankly, a bit crazy in those days. And also lead and nurture very hungry Christians, who were committed and dedicated to following Christ in every aspect of their lives, with a huge emphasis on community, Authority and submission. Some of the years were good. However, many things corrupted many of the leaders, and it went downhill slowly at first, but then drastically. Much harm was done to many Christians, including my own parents and my family. It took us nearly 3 years just to get out And we had to spend many years recovering from that experience. Praise God we eventually did and were able to trust church leadership again. As far as the church still being alive and going, Charles Simpson just passed away this last month, and I know, for a fact that he was still visiting some of the churches he had started. I visited one in Atlanta and I walked in the door and felt the spirit of control all over the place. I said to myself, oh my God they are still doing it! I’m sure it’s on a very different level not near strict, and so forth, but it is still out there. But here’s the thing, as long as we have flesh on our bodies, and part of the human race we will always fail if we don’t keep our eyes on God. If you put your faith more in a man, then you do God himself there’s gonna be some big letdowns for you coming. We had to learn that the very hard way. Anyway now that we of course are far removed from it, we have chosen to remember and glean the good that we got from it, and not harbor, resentment, and bitterness, which will absolutely do us no good at all.

[@tedthought]

Thanks for sharing your story.

[@beautydefined1601]

Had no idea that this Was basically a pyramid scheme. That is why so many churches to operate in this spirit Emphasize strongly tithing. That is why people like you are vital, to tell us about history, because one sweet understand history we can connect the dots. I had no idea while attending these churches, what was behind this, which is narcissism.

[@glennrobinson7193]

Interesting and insightful. I don't know if you know of Gino Jennings but I see something similar as possibly happening in his movement too as in becoming very dictatorial in what we're supposed do or not to do.

[@andychen3908]

Great stuff, thanks for sharing! Listening from Africa.

[@homebrewer7]

Thank you. I left that movement at its beginning mid 1970s

[@CCR-ew6ke]

I was a part of the Discipleship Movement or Campus Advance (Campus Ministry) among Churches of Christ back in the '80's. This was NOT in Boston, thankfully, but Gainesville, FL. I was with Crossroads COC, the same congregation that trained and sent out Kip McKean to be a Campus Minister and Lead Evangelist. By the time I was there he was already long gone and been in Boston since 1979 as you prolly know. Anyway, from what God showed me through His Word and being led by the Holy Spirit that this was discipleship (or shepherding) replacing, thwarping, usurping, the ministry of the HOLY SPIRIT in our lives, in the decisions we make, in our thought processes, and it's a systematic evil. I became a Christian when I was in high school and left just before my 21st birthday. Left the Crossroads church, not Christ Jesus. I remember being in the auditorium or sanctuary as everyone was fellowshipping, after the "services" was over. And Crossroads was good about fellowshipping after the services. Anyway I looked around and thought to myself, "Devoid of the Spirit." That is, AFTER I began to see how we relied on leaders and one another beyond the biblical context to the point of lessening to role of the Spirit, our Anointing as it says in First John 2, "Devoid of the Spirit" was my thought. Put another way the Holy Spirit led me out of the Discipleship Movement which was the International COC before it was called that and Reconstructed under Kip's control. And being a disciple of Jesus Christ and we turn that into a system called discipleship is not biblical. If you want to call it discipleship then it's limited to body life, living our lives out in Christ. And Body Life with the ultimate goal of "Christ being formed in you" as Paul put it. Anything beyond that I don't want anything to do with. No "accountability partner," or some fancy way of putting. The way to grow in Christ and overcome sin is the same way you became a Christian to begin with. The Cross. The sinful nature is conquered at the cross. Romans 5 is good on this, so is Galatians. Do your own study. I have more regard for Jimmy Swaggart who messed up in the '80s and 90's but he learned the message of the cross. I'd rather listen to him than Kip McKean and anyone associated with him. And some, SOME, traditional COC does not believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for every Christian....I have to wonder if they are even saved especially if they explain away Imputed Righteousness. I only say this so we can see how serious this is.

[@JonathanGrandt]

Everyone is constantly talking about discipleship. You’ve got David Platt telling people they need to be Disciples Discipling Disciplers. And everyone MUST do it and Francis Chan pulls the same crap. The problem with men following men who follow men is that they all fall into the same pit together.

[@tedthought]

Well stated

[@seivorsichtig]

Francis Chan? I love his preachings, I never hear him emphasizing on discipleship like this. Do you have a link or something? Thanks

[@user-kq5qp6dh8l]

Jesus said, Follow me. If thats not easy to grasp, then folk need help. Never follow man.

[@user-kq5qp6dh8l]

@@seivorsichtig he is fake

[@josephdennison4890]

@@user-kq5qp6dh8l that's not totally true . Paul said follow as so much as I follow Christ

[@jimandcharfrancis3857]

Right on Man! We had a major family split because of this teaching back in 1980. God used us to spread the word against this teaching. It was very strong here in the Pacific Northwest. We're afraid many new converts to Christianity left the church because of this. Leaders, still present, will not admit to being a part of this deception. Thanks for articulating this false teaching so well in short time. Thank You and God bless.

[@thegolfbois1350]

20 years in the ICOC. Spot on analysis.

[@gabrialjackson5878]

Thank God for your video. I knew i was seeing red flags. Thanks for the history lesson and breakdown you have provided. 👍 I very recently started this i doctrination and Im getting out now and will find a good church

[@tedthought]

👍👍

[@CarolineAnandSiddiqui]

I don't find anything wrong with Derek Prince. I've listened to 100s of his sermons

[@TalkProphetic]

Trying to force “Christians” to submit is always a bad idea.

[@bobscruggs8886]

I remember the shepherding { herding } in the 1970's the so called mentors wanted a telephone conversation several times a week and act so godly but I knew them well they would only smile on Sunday type I said flak off I don't need this Bullcrap !

[@calcobb442]

Bob Mumford totally repented.

[@glennrobinson7193]

It all came about because there was a few things lacking in the charismatic movement, like order, submission, pastoral 'covering', discipline, accountability. The charismatic movement was becoming a bit wacky & out there(nothing new!), so this heavy Shepherding seemed to fill that which was lacking.

[@thegolfbois1350]

Great non biased perspective. Good work.

[@angelagrant2943]

Sir, I just now left a church like this. Key Ministry in Euless Tx...Micah Bell

[@RitaLady]

Angela Grant me too. Texas seems to be a hotbed for this doctrine...but it’s certainly spreading.

[@annieb7919]

Until you just now informed me, I was unaware that Derek Prince had been a co-founder (or whatever!?!) of That Mess. Thanks for the enlightenment!

[@teopistorsind9874]

He repented of it.

[@annieb7919]

@@teopistorsind9874 I was not aware of that. Can you tell me when, and is it writing somewhere on the net? Did you know Derek personally? Thanks in advance.

[@teopistorsind9874]

@@annieb7919 I don't have to have known Derek Prince personally to know or believe he repented. As much as your question sound innocent. I read malice and I don't have time for that. Make google your friend.

[@josephdennison4890]

Derek Prince led the Florida five , the leadership of the shepherd ing movement.

[@billburscher1072]

I used to go to a church in Fort Lauderdale and here Derek Prince preach regularly... I have seen him say, and I believe I read it one of his books as well, that it was a grave mistake, and he has humbly repented and I am assuming also asked forgiveness of everyone affected... Seeing a man be so transparent regarding his weaknesses, was then and is still a beautiful experience that calls me deeper into the heart of God... God forgives and redeems... Just one of my favorite attributes!

[@AJ-ss5te]

I lived this, Charles Simpson was at our home often in my stepdad. Dean price was under Simpson’s authority.

[@CieloVistaSoftware]

Was involved in this fiasco. It was so bad we had to ask for permission to go on vacation. Got out after 5 tears, it took me 25 years to totally escape their teachings. Only Mumford and Simpson apologized. Derek Prince was silent.

[@pacnik77]

the local Church under Witness Lee fell into a similar error ,cultish and still around there is a new group in town its also called the Lords recovery under the control of local elders... wasn't what Lee or Nee had in mind ...Bob Mumford said a lot the ideas he got was from Watchman Nees book Spiritual Authority

[@glennrobinson7193]

Ppl would want to join a shepherding movement as it is a type of spiritual elitism. It's the seed of satan which says in one's heart, "I will be LIKE the Most High".

[@glennrobinson7193]

It seems the ones who have the most light, the most truth, the very elect are vulnerable to such deceptions and going over the top. Is it Ecclesiastes where it says, don't be overly righteous???

[@tedthought]

I love that verse - used it once with people who were fanatics, and they told me that was a bad way to think. It's not

[@catcat5045]

V well explained, to what extent is the movement active this days? V painful for ppl who realise too late the deceiving situation they found themselves in, maybe new Christians are convinced this is the normal way of “doing “ church

[@tedthought]

I am not sure how active such discipleship is today. I got a lot of comments suggesting it was still very active in some churches. As far as I can tell, I think it has morphed somewhat so that it is not as centralized and directed to one or a handful of leaders, but the top end power is now in the hands of pastors or leaders of local churches who practice very similar control as was mentioned in this video.

[@aaroncrawford5638]

I was attending a Baptist church (in many ways an IFB-lite church...they were KJV only but they didn’t have the music and dress standards.) I know they are big on “Biblical discipleship” where they did a 16 lesson discipleship program but it was almost reminiscent of this. I have heard of the phrase of shepherding on Friday and it reminds me almost of this. My only thing was didn’t Jesus command us to make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20, 2 Timothy 2:2)? I’m only asking as I just left this movement and am seeing some of the abuse that has taken place by my former pastor.

[@tedthought]

Your question is good. I had to work through this because of friends and family involved in unhealthy discipleship groups. I concluded that short term discipleship is okay and under the right circumstances can be good. Jesus'' disciples followed Jesus for one or three years and then were on their own. Intense discipleship should not be long term. There were many other teachers with disciples in Jesus' day. Many of them led their disciples into early graves facing the Roman armies. Not all discipleship is good and any discipleship should be short term. And... discipleship was a common way for First Century believers to learn. Today we have Christian Universities and Seminaries that can teach as well. What is your thought?

[@sheilajones6696]

@@tedthought , Hi Ted., I'm a new listener. So hope you see this comment. Sir, How do you answer the scripture in Hews 13 that says, "Obey them that has rule over you, for they watch for your souls and will give an account ........" Thank you, Sheila

[@tedthought]

@@sheilajones6696 Hi Sheila. I am not saying that we should not have leaders in the churches. All I am saying is that high demand discipleship is a recipe for disaster. There needs to be trust from leaders for the people under their care and these leaders from these two discipleship groups quickly became abusive and controlling.

[@josiahfisher4791]

So... I hear what you're saying. And I appreciate the thought/research/experiences you've shared with us. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the root problem you have with "discipleship churches" is that they control people. But... Isn't that a good thing lol? When Moses went up the mountain, the people made a golden calf, completely dived headfirst into idolatry, and abandoned God. We know from the NT epistles that churches experienced issues, sometimes pretty major/detrimental problems, and the apostles used letters (discipling) to correct them. Now, keep in mind that I'm not talking about looking at bank records, arranged marriages, or anything, err, *wack* like that. Leaders of churches should not be held up as apostles; they can't write inspired scripture. And they definitely can't tell us what color clothes to wear hahaha. But, with all this in mind, what about the sin in our own lives? It's a problem, a BIG problem! Sin can take people to hell! Who's going to help us with that? I read most of the comments and you mentioned a form of "temporary discipleship," based on the model of Jesus walking with His disciples. And I think that there's some validity to that. But even the apostles continued to help each other after Jesus ascended. Think about Paul when he rebuked Peter in Antioch... That's some pretty "strong" discipling lol. And then I think about Matthew 28:20... Some of Jesus' very last words (while He was on earth) were to go and make disciples... and teach them to obey EVERYTHING I have commanded you. That's a lot lol! As I'm sure you would agree, one can never learn all there is to learn about the Bible; there is always a deeper layer to dive to. And Jesus commands us, not just to teach them knowledge, but to teach them to OBEY the commands/information Jesus has taught. As a young man who has struggled with impurities like pornography, masturbation, selfish ambition, and arrogance, I can testify that I NEED some HELP if I have any hope of repenting!! I need people in my life to help me!! I'm NOT strong enough to do it alone!! I'm not "spiritual enough" to always follow and obey the urging of the Holy Spirit, I'm not disciplined enough to obey all the verses of the Bible. I need help!! And I believe that discipling is a method to get that help, to have someone in your life that you can talk to... They won't "tell you what to do," but they WILL show me scriptures that DO tell me what to do!! :) One last thing... I think it would be great if we could go through temporary seasons of discipleship/accountability when I was struggling in a particular area and not able to overcome my sin alone. But the thing is, when I'm in sin I don't want to talk about it!! Lol!! I'm so prideful that I don't want help!! I can attest that if I had optional or temporary discipling based upon my own level of desire for such, I would rarely utilize them. I could not be trusted to always get help when I need it. I know for me personally, I need someone in my life to control me! Because when I'm out of control I turn to sin. So there's my two cents (looking at the length, probably more like a dime lol). If you ever read this comment, know that I respect you for your opinion and for your well-made video. And if you choose to respond, I will try my best to respond quickly. Your brother in Christ, Josiah

[@tedthought]

Josiah, Well written response! My response is this... its very difficult to know how much the disciples corrected each other or held each other responsible. Paul spent a little time with Peter and James the Lord's brother for 15 days, and rebuked him publicly in Antioch, but Peter wasn't under his ministry and they rarely saw each other. Paul also submitted his gospel to the apostles (lest he had been running in vain) but only because God revealed that he should do so. Because it is hard to discern how intense fellowship was, we can look to Joseepus and see how much others followed their so called messiahs and leaders. But this gives us a cultural look at what was expected and good for that day. It also shows us that disciples following a leader around and learning scripture and how to live was not uncommon. Even the pharisees had disciples of their own. Because we live in a different culture and a different day, it is no always the best idea to try to duplicate what the NT did as exact as possible, but learn what they did and try to apply it in our own way. In some ways we can be better, in some ways we will be worse. The other thing we need to look at is how emotionally and spiritually healthy our own forms are. When people are ruined for life (as some people I do know were) there is something wrong. Love to hear your thoughts

[@mh-ow9ej]

Josiah Fisher, you are quite brainwashed brother, I used to be just like you are now, The truth was always in front of me, but I neglected to see it, I do not follow people who do not obey the word of God half ways, these leaders are not above The word of God, Jesus said freely you received freely you give, but the grace of God is being used for business, we need to recognize what is genuine from what is counterfeit, kip mckeen isn’t obeying the word of God, I always knew this but wasn’t willing to see it, 22 years a disciple of Christ, it’s so exhausting to see people come and go because of the pressure and heavy weight that is placed on people’s shoulders, so much abuse so much greed, too much deceit, I doubt it’s what the lord had in mind, by this I don’t mean lord kip mckeen

[@CieloVistaSoftware]

No man should control other men except in the military.

[@britniturner8109]

Sounds like a cult

[@tpb2665]

I’m wondering if the Shepherding Movement or Bill Gothard’s teachings may set up marriage problems, and what they may have in common in their teachings of wifely “submission”, as in contrast with the Orthodox and Catholic denominations?

[@PaperBanjo64]

That sounds a lot like a lot of pentecostal churches, there's a church somewhere either in Indiana or Kentucky with a woman as "pastor" who demands people give every cent to her.

[@tedthought]

A lot of Pentecostal churches are getting influenced by the health and wealth teachings - and of course there are also just bad people in every group.

[@user-kq5qp6dh8l]

Same thing is going on now, comes under the heading of you having accountability meetings with the honchos. Don’t seem right to me.

[@Sharon-ls4bt]

Yip. Been there. Lost 2 decades of my life.

[@Star-dj1kw]

✅ good video

[@homebrewer7]

I attended a two year c harismatic Bible school that exposed this movement and got me out of it.

[@willicycle]

may I testify to the fact that , mainly because of a prophesy given by a Pentecostal " minister" I went ahead and married a woman and we simply did not suit each other - our troubles began on the honeymoon , perhaps before that and did not stop the only good thing about the marriage was the children . So what is the outcome of this false prophecy ? six lives hurt and broken for many yrs - God,s will ? well God must seriously dislike us it seems

[@tedthought]

I am sorry you had to endure that. There is someone close to me who followed her church's direction and left a man she loved and married someone that did not suit her.

[@kayceemorehead4621]

False prophecies come from those that abuse children. That’s where their false message comes from.

[@ashtonsquires3102]

I grew up in this cult. My grandparents are still involved.

[@michaelhattar3923]

Going to INTERNATIONAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH, first what you really need is deep pockets, nearly every sermon revolves about giving money, the next step goes into pestering the Disciples to give more, well that’s not a problem, the problem that is faced by them is called giving advice, if you’re out of work and gone through financial hardship they turn their backs, no need ask for anything, you’ll only insult yourself if you did, besides that it wouldn’t make a difference because they already know the financial condition you’re in and so they might not ask for the weekly tithing but at least don’t ask or expect anything to burden the church, that’s another word for giving you the middle finger, but they have the nerve to take your money on weekly basis, plus 5 special contributions for special missions to plant churches, this church is filled with hypocrisy, and deception, for them making disciples is all about making money, for them is only business as usual,

[@AndyTV20]

The fact that you’ve mentioned about “VERY GODLY” you have failed! You should’ve used “very alarming” “very satanic” “very troublesome” I just want to ask you this. WHAT’S WRONG WITH BEING VERY GODLY? Isn’t that what the bible says? Is being VERY GODLY a bad thing?

[@bandcampkid07]

What should I do if my church is borderline doing this? I feel like it’s going in this direction

[@tedthought]

If you have clout, help them find alternatives such as weekend or week-long something or anothers. Evidently, some of your church is hungry for more of God - but unfortunately, discipleship like this is a more fleshly way to follow God than spiritual.It looks spiritual, but the carnal will enter very quickly in all levels. Churches, like political systems are filled with self-centered and sinful people. Even well-meaning people will bring down or corrupt great ideas - and discipleship like this can be a great idea, but doesn't work out in real life.

[@susanheard4843]

Be alert. It's a slow boil. When I first joined it was a budding discipleship movement. The draw had nothing to do with abdicating responsibility or being led by others. Was drawn by individuals who took the scriptures seriously With expectation towards growth. But easily slid into leaders controlling by shame and cherry picking scriptures and claiming more power and was appropriate. I joined when I was 19 And didn't leave until I was 38. They definitely infantilize their members. I was a mom of two when I left and had to figure out how to adult. Though I did have some friends that were not in the church I hadn't really included them in the details of my life because they weren't in the church. So was really on my own when I left trying to figure out How to just be a human being.

[@richardredmond1463]

It was a great idea, applied incorrectly. Don't over-state the objection. 😉

[@annieb7919]

2:44 Intertational Church of Christ? Wow ~ now THAT's a new one! lol (Just want you to know I'm Watching as well as listening!)

[@tedthought]

Hi Annie B

[@annieb7919]

@@tedthought I I hope you giggled along with me! Not much fun giggling alone! SO looking forward to your next videos. Oh ~ I met Derek and his 2nd wife at a Conference in Jerusalem where they spoke when I lived there. There was "something" about them.

[@teopistorsind9874]

@@annieb7919 Don't be a gossip!

[@deveronrobertson4184]

What does it look like to make disciples without the shepherding movement and still have someone hold you accountable?

[@tedthought]

Jesus' followers walked with him and learned from him for a season. After a year or three, they were on their own. That is healthy. During their training, Jesus never told them who to marry (Peter was married already), who to date, what camel or donkey they should buy, or such details as the Discipleship movement fell into. Jesus did not create dependent children, but independent leaders capable of leading others.

[@deveronrobertson4184]

Wow that make sense thanks for explaining

[@pearl2705]

@@tedthought thank you!!

[@Altarfireministries]

To be biblical, besides Jesus Christ himself who should be a shepherd of someone else’s wife but her husband?

[@explorateur8159]

Hello sir! I'm excited to hear someone else express all of these thoughts, I am currently part of the International Church of Christ. I'd like to say, that while our church has changed a lot, remnants of this old system pervade today, but the system has become a lot less explicitly mandatory & has (perhaps inadvertently or ignorantly) turned to using tactics of the flesh to keep people in and prevent them from leaving. Such tools are desire & fear, the campus ministry in the SA church has begun to emphasize strongly the importance of 'fun' or in other words, gratification, at times our group is no more than a body of yeasayers & hedonists, saying yes to everything that's not obviously sin (to gratify the flesh) & no to everything ambiguous (out of fear of the loss of social position, further guilt & rejection). I would ask, rather than diving further into how there are problems & what they are (which ultimately are just are reversion to pharisaicism & a hardening of the heart). What would you propose instead? Because many people see such problems? Even leaders tend to recognize the problem, though perhaps through different eyes & with different descriptions. Shall we truly sell everything & live together? Should not our hearts individually be set on what is good regardless of whether we have one to tell us so? My proposal would actually be the removal of leaders who lead in this fashion, in my eyes, they are like the king's of the old testament which were evil in the eyes of God (1 Samuel 8:6-9) and like how the people began to become followers of the apostles rather than God & Jesus (in the new testament) and that was wrong too. I think what would also be more beneficial is people with visions creating more initiatives, bringing into reality the beauty & light of the kingdom as it was meant to be. But all of our own accord & earnest devotion. And more, I'd love to correspond if you would.

[@tedthought]

First of all, your insight and response is amazing. I think a lot of us are in churches where there are obvious issues and it becomes a difficult struggle of "should I stay and help or move on to another church or fellowship?" Martin Luther was pushed out of the Catholic church (some would say he got himself pushed out) while others of his day who also saw the problems with the 16th C church tried to renew it from within. Although I believe the Gospel calls us to be giving, I do not hold that selling all and starting or joining or starting a group solves anything but rather creates cults. We are to be in the world while not of it. Removing leaders could be good if you had the authority; but even removing leaders is not a sure way to create something good, as there will be others who will rise to take their places. The church's culture has already formed a good amount of followers who could easily replace the leaders you have. History shows over and over again that change is difficult and comes with a lot of struggle and pain. Pray for your church, lead by example in love and dedication to Christ, and try not to get swallowed up in that which you see is not healthy. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints went through a huge change (it is a Mormon sect (not the big group) that moved closer to the protestant circle - but still Mormon) and the Worldwide Church of God went through a massive change away from cult-like teachings. I know the World Wide Church of God lost a lot of members and split due to the changes, and I don't remember what happened to the Mormon group. Both of those were top down changes, so they did not change because common people pushed for change. In fact, the WWCofG change was not accepted by a lot of the common followers. I think what I am saying is I don't have a clear answer for you on this topic as churches and human groups are complex. I do think finding more examples from history can help you. I also think there may be some other readers of this who might have some words of wisdom.

[@explorateur8159]

@@tedthought Such things as you mention I'm trying to implement, like I'm genuinely trying to start from the bottom, find people who can see the flaws of the system and setting a different example in the way we are with one another. It's also such a complicated thing, to seek a balance in my pursuit of these things which I see are good & true, it takes a lot of conversation, disagreement, more conversation, perhaps a little consensus, and then confusion of that consensus, but bit by bit I believe people find a new hope in the new ways we're trying to operate. And I'm strongly against being a leader of this group, though people are beginning to see me as a leader of the initiatives and the like, yet I actively push power away from me, so I lose effect & influence 😅 but ultimately, I do believe the best structure/community/kingdom is truly one where everyone is fully devoted to the apostles teachings & to meeting with one another often & allowing Love to define their lives & relationships with each other. Dwelling in the Word constantly, seeking to gain wisdom & live more & more according to it, then sharing that with each other to become unified in heart & mind (which are the same in Hebraic thought). And I think it would be much easier to claim authority as it's given & be lifted up to a position above my fellow man, because then I could just tell people the truth, what's wrong and why, how to fix that, but that creates the problem I'm trying to solve, stealing away people's responsibility, people's agency, it would mean that I would be God's ambassador to them, or more so a Pharisee king. I think the thing I'm most curious to hear about, and most ignorant of, is what kind of things would best build up our kingdom in the way it's meant to be? How could I encourage/inspire people to seek what is beautifully good? Perhaps there really is no way then to just embody that yourself, and to, with excitement, share in that with them, as treasure, not compelling them yourself in any way, but perhaps literally just allowing the Love that is evident in your life, such as when they see the way you treat them and other people in your life and even strangers, how willing you are to seek justice for them, how willing you are to be compassionate regardless of the cost or benefit. Perhaps it's not some set of words or actions which will convince someone, but really just following the greatest commandment and allowing Love to flow between us and God & each other. But practically, I think it could still be beneficial to dream of ways we could Love better, how we might express that to more people. And I don't think we should force people to do anything, I think that's against the whole idea of God creating us as separate, agent beings. Rather, what I was thinking concerning having everything in common, it would be nice if we poured our thoughts, feelings, time, & money into the same thing we are passionate about, God & His kingdom, but never by guilt, fear, or hedonism should such things be done, but by a genuine desire to do so, as if it were an endeavor we all shared. In the same way that I might vote for a president or candidate I like, or listen to a certain musician, buy a certain painting, eat a certain food, spend the commodity of time doing such or such, so could I spend my life & money if it was fully what I desired to have & saw as having a value worth paying for, like literally everything else in life. But with that I'm not saying other people SHOULD feel OBLIGATED to do these things, but if they want to, I'll gladly do give everything alongside them.

[@tedthought]

@@explorateur8159 I wonder if God may be calling you to leadership? If so, embrace it and be a good leader and lead by example with humility and looking for the good of the people you lead.

[@explorateur8159]

@@tedthought I appreciate the sentiment, I've considered such a thing, but should I claim such a title which I am largely trying to transcend? If I 'lead', may it be from the side, like a cowherd not a shepherd 😅

[@abrokenlinelbc]

Explorateur I think that is exactly how we should be leading, From the side. I’m from the icoc as well and I hear us talk about “new ideas” such as shepherding partners. My immediate reaction is, there is ONE shepherd. He is the good shepherd who calls his sheep. We are, as peter was, called to feed the sheep and take care of the sheep, but Jesus is the shepherd. If we can lead others to follow him and not us, I think this is the true calling of being a leader in the church. I resist leadership in the church because I I have been hurt by allowing others to take the role of shepherd In my life as well I have hurt others when I, in leadership, assumed the role of shepherd. I am still figuring out my place and continue to attend mostly because I have built a few strong bonds with the brothers. The pros outweigh the cons for me.

[@samueljackson315]

It was a cult. My parents were in it.

[@tedthought]

Which one? The Shepherding Movement or the ICC?

[@vrivera123]

Kip NEVER gave the Lexington Church of Christ that ultimatum. He did say that every member needed to be totally committed, not just the campus group. These are half-truths, twisting things around to suit their own views, autonomy. Autonomous churches produce autonomous members. There is no unity. When there is no unity, there is no example of Christ. The third person in a relationship that this person is afraid of is Jesus. A cord of three strands is not easily broken. Read the Bible. If you do not like shepherding, then the Bible is not for you. It is sin that separates people, not she[herding.

[@ContemplativeSoul]

Shepherding is only as adequate as the one shepherding and that's the problem with Kip created churches. He's some nobody from Indiana who's all hype, like a bad boomer motivational speaker and gullible people are moved by his passion, not his ideas. Dumb people interpreting the Bible just creates dumb exegesis, and only dumb people fall for that grift, hombre.

[@ellewinmcgillleaver6775]

This Kit is indeed a "profit"

[@alastairhopkins245]

The perfect church on Earth does not exist and you cannot make the perfect church. If you can prove me wrong and find this church DO NOT JOIN IT!!! If you do you will spoil it.

[@david0321able]

Bad movement. Thanks for sharing.

[@jasonmorales7527]

I remember going to the ICC. College girls were wearing short shorts. Good looking girls.

[@PaulRichards-bz9ym]

Get a life,it’s been over for years lots of these men saw there bad ways,stop being a winger

[@akicabanero9991]

Sir I respect your opinion but our opinion may not be what the Bible teaches. You can say that you don't like shepherding or discipling, and that's your opinion, but that is not Jesus' commands. There are tons of biblical teachings about shepherding, Jesus himself challenged everyone to obey, otherwise they can't be his disciples. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to. Jesus, in the end, don't force people to go to heaven. This is only for the true disciples. Have a blessed day.

[@wrightspiano]

I think most of the trouble with discipleship is when it turns into being a disciple of a man instead of a disciple of Jesus. Many men love the idea of being a savior of sorts to others but there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus. A true servant of God will not desire to impose preferences, opinions and extra-Biblical rules on others.

[@ContemplativeSoul]

Middle man discipleship is only as good as the people dishing it out. It's an ESFJ heavy group, meaning- it's very emotionally led, and a bit too confident in itself. Leadership is mostly salesmen temperaments playing the part of theologians- and most of them are creating doctrine from poor English translations because they can barely muddle through the Greek of their interlinerary bibles.

[@CieloVistaSoftware]

Where does Bible say to submit your life to man? Where except for marriage does it say enter into a covenant?

[@victordroblas1124]

dislike

[@ellewinmcgillleaver6775]

This Kit is indeed a "profit"