Discussing Booker's '7 Basic Plots' and the Strengths and Weaknesses of Structural Approaches

You might be familiar with the assertion 'there are only 7 basic plots', well, this is a video about them, and why this approach (basically a form of structuralism and not at all new) is not as simple and as straightforward as its proponents often make it.
I also discuss Code 8: Part II (Director: Jeff Chan, 2024), Road House (Director: Rowdy Herrington, 1989), and Road House (Director: Doug Liman, 2024).
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Intro and Music by Professor Trip.

[@joshwi4193]

From the sound of those birds outside, I can only assume this is you setting aside your usual duties as a Disney princess to talk about narrative structure. Much appreciated!

[@ACriticalDragon]

They are certainly vocal about what they like and don't like in genre fiction. I think they are lit snobs. 😂

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Nice birdies! I’d worry about them pooping on some of those books behind you, though. As for structural approaches to stories, I think they have a lot to tell us as long as we’re not applying them rigidly. Thanks for the video, AP!

[@ACriticalDragon]

Birds have no respect for the rules of the library.

[@Gascon12]

Fantastic video! Thank you AP!

[@imokin86]

That was very informative, thank you! Maybe you could consider making a similar video with Borges's 4 story archetypes? Or, in a narrower take, how they are reflected in Malazan or other epic fantasy stories?

[@Karl.Zimmerman]

I've heard it argued before there are two kinds of genres, at least as understood when it comes to mass market fiction. On one hand there are structural genres, like romance, horror, suspense, and mystery, where the genre is largely defined by reader expectations of plot. This means, for example, a book with a main romantic plot that ends with a breakup can't be a romance, and a book where the the detective fails to solve a crime cannot be a mystery. If you subvert the reader expectations too much, it just becomes general fiction. On the other hand, there are setting genres like historical fiction and science fiction. There's not any sort of rigid conception in the mind of the reader as to how the story should unfold, although they can be paired with one of the structural genres quite easily. Fantasy is an interesting case, because although I think it's clearly a setting genre overall, there are plot structures which are so integral to the development of the genre's popularity, that if you port them into another setting, it can "feel like fantasy." Star Wars is, as you noted, an obvious example. But it's very hard for me to think of the reverse - a fantasy story that "feels like science fiction" without bringing in the trappings of a sci-fi setting, because there's no easily definable plot structure for a sci-fi novel similar to the hero's journey. Westerns are another tweener genre, insofar as they're really only a subset of historical fiction, but they developed an even tighter constraint to structural tropes than fantasy. Which is why you can take the structure of a western and port it into a different time/place. In contrast, I'm not sure that every historical fiction novel which is set in the late 19th century Western U.S. would today be defined as a western.

[@ACriticalDragon]

There are lots of different ways to create 'genre', as genre is essentially a general term for grouping like with like. Children's and YA are 'genres' in which the intended audience is used to create the grouping. Science Fiction could be the setting, it could be the use of a novum, it could be an investigation of an aspect of science through the fiction, or the ramifications of any of the sciences, and more. Noir is often typified by the language, Detective fiction is typified by the inclusion of solving a mystery, and yet Urban Fantasy often uses and manipulates both Detective and Noir to create a fantasy variant. Sometimes the detective part is altered to 'investigator or fixer', so we see the structural elements of the plot function of the character/role rather than the specifics of 'detective'. The language can be altered to fit a modern audience, or made archaic to fit the 'fantasy' setting. As the creation of literature does not stand still, writers often push the boundaries of what the perceived genre norms are. We also have genres being used as commercial categories to help readers find 'like' books. Sub-genres often expand and grow in popularity, leading to them becoming genres in their own right due to size and variability within the group. As genre in and of itself does not have set criteria for which elements within the text are creating the grouping it leads to a lot of 'messiness' in what 'genre' is, and how it is being created. So even similar genre labels can be identifying radically different elements within the genres we are comparing. Which leads to increasing levels of specificity applied in sub-genrification, and a string of linked concepts to try to describe individual texts (high, epic, military, secondary world fantasy... heroic, adventure, lost land, fantasy and so on). But a romance that deliberately does not reach a happy ending can have all the other elements of romance and the ending makes it tragic. So it could become a tragic romance... which is still a type of romance, and therefore still part of the romance genre. We can even use descriptors such as typical and atypical which would suggest that the text in question is either following or not following convention. So an atypical romance may have almost all the elements of romance, but has done a significant element differently, but is still within that genre.

[@Karl.Zimmerman]

@@ACriticalDragon YA is an interesting case, as it was clearly created (or rather, redefined) by publishing to for teen-focused books. However, a few hit books, combined with the aging up of the original audience to their mid 30s (and unwillingness to give up the genre to a younger cohort) means it's becoming more and more rigidly defined in ways that go well beyond the original intended audience (almost always has a female protagonist, love triangle, etc.). But more broadly, I wasn't speaking in absolutes about genre in the artistic sense, but the marketing sense, because those are still gatekept to a large extent by publishers. If you write a cracking great book which defies genre expectations too much, it may be toxic unless you're already an established author with a few well-selling books under your belt, or if you can prove yourself through self-publishing first (see Legends & Lattes).

[@ACriticalDragon]

I don't think that it is necessarily publishers that are 'gate-keeping' genres. Fans are just as likely to apply rigid genre definitions, regardless of whether or not they overlap or are wholly encompassed by previous terms. Then you have agents and booksellers. Marketing, selling, and 'tapping into' an established audience or predilection for certain types of stories. It is part of the constant evolution of books as art, books as commodity, books as consumables, books as narrative. Each of the different approaches highlights and emphasises different aspects for different reasons, and quite often inspires different (or even the same terms) being used in specific ways with different intentionality. People try to coin new usages all the time, some catch on, others fizzle out. The world of bookselling and the intersection with fan discourse is a strange and wondrous land.

[@thirdspacemaker9141]

Any book recommendations for fans of Firefly? Not necessarily based on the Western/sci-fi mashup, but on the wit, crew of antiheroes, little guy just trying make a living, found family aspects.

[@praetorxyn]

Given the date, I'm mildly disappointed this isn't a silly video praising the writing of Stephanie Myer or something 😂

[@eugenemurphy6037]

Interesting! Are genres important? Well, we need to be able to generally describe things, so yes phrases and categories help us do that. But I like your point about which assumed parts of a genre are we talking about? The setting, the narrative, maybe even the time period? Reminds me of a venn-diagram sort of system. And of course, if you want to get the complete understanding of a book or piece of media, you are just going to have to consume it as intended.

[@ACriticalDragon]

Brian Attebery suggested the 'fuzzy set' as a way of approaching genre definition in Strategies of Fantasy.

[@thefantasythinker]

The birds were trying to tell you that everything is fantasy 😁

[@Lostboy811]

Missouri the 1989 version you weren't even close.

[@ACriticalDragon]

[Checks map] Yup, not even close.