Discussing Teb Tengri and the Religious Views of Chinggis Khan

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

Video about Chinggis and Teb Tenggeri: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKa9aIiNgaqXfdEsi=aWwmRI5HqSNLob7u Sources and further reading on shamans: docs.google.com/document/d/1sXUechMan3ajOmkTsa-c5rNvlEP2tQJrws4WHBnpBcs/edit?usp=sharing

[@ElBandito]

Funny how both Alexander's and Chinggis' people were too tired to move their campaign into India and dissuaded their rulers from continuing, after conquering too much territory.

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

There a lot of suggestions around the reason for not going further towards Delhi; from the sighting of the rhinoceros, to Sultan of Delhi Iltutmish possibly undertaking a nominal submission to the Mongols. While he may or may not have done so, the fact that he gave Chinggis no immediate cause to invade (i.e, didn't kill any Mongol envoys but likely received them with honours) meant there wasn't a military reason to attack Delhi itself (Chinggis Khan was always rather strict on finding these sort of diplomatic justifications for his campaigns, rather than attacking at random). The main reason they were even there was the pursuit of Jalal al-Din Mingburnu, and Chinggis did send armies in pursuit of him deeper into India, and may have considered (according to some accounts) finding a route south of the Himalayas to strike the Jin Dynasty from the south (!), but I suspect the practicalities of his empire having suddenly double in size with the conquest of Khwarezm, and the ongoing war in North China, meant there wasn't much possibility of Chinggis Khan trying to start a conquest of India at that point regardless of what happened on the border; the rhino/omens/Iltutmish/whatever it was, was convenient enough a reason not to bother with attempting a conquest (at that point, that is).

[@mericanwit]

Armies always march on their stomachs😮

[@TanielaKaufusi]

Ghengis khan didn't see india necessary. And the price wouldn't be worth it. He knew many men would die in the humid, jungle terrain against the people there. And even he won, what next? The only place in between him and rich Europe was the middle east. And therefore he went after it. The diplomat killed was just an excuse to justify his agenda there.

[@ElBandito]

@@TanielaKaufusi I think the Middle East was richer than Europe in 1210's, and Chinese Jin and Song dynasties were the richest in the world at the time.

[@coleob8547]

@@ElBandito Jin was manchu's and song was chinese (han)

[@CraigCraigbottom]

Loved the letter from hulagu to the king. Had no idea about that and found that very cool. Didn’t know you could translate latin too!

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

With a bit of work, I can do Latin. Part of that letter is an excerpt from the bible, so that helped a bit.

[@johnclay5499]

Hello Jackmeister❤, I am a big fan of your videos about the Mongols and I would like to know how far you are willing to look into their history because I believe alot of people underrate how interesting the mongol history is after the the great empire and the fracture and after the fracture up until the Qing conquest, I personally would absolutely love videos made by you about the mongols from 1300 up until 1800 because you would be doing something basically never done before on youtube👍

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

I would very much like to cover that period at some point; the Dzungars in particular are something I've long wanted to research more on it. So it is something I will do one day, but just not sure when yet.

[@FirstLast_Nba]

Religion, One of the most important characteristics of the Mongols, yet talked about so sparingly.

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

I will do a more thorough set of videos in future on the matter of religion in the Mongol Empire. Something I'd like to learn more about in general, and I'm sure others would as well.

[@CraigCraigbottom]

Looking forward to that​@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory

[@Howyoullappear-eb8vo]

Thank you! excellent discussion. really cool insight into the khan on this one and neat to see how it built on some of your previous videos

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

Glad you enjoyed it, thank you!

[@ClassicPengins]

Nice work as usual. That Qorchi guy sounds like he was a real piece of work. Cool to see how the Secret History is ambivalent towards shamans, don't usually suspect that!

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

Thank you! Yes it is a surprising feature of the work. We get a few sources expressing a certain amount of frustration the Mongol court had towards shamans, particularly in Möngke's reign. Yet, we know he also consulted with them often. I suspect it's a bit like our modern relationship with lawyers; everyone hates lawyers, but lawyers will never be out of work.

[@ClassicPengins]

@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory great ccomparison, love that visual!

[@Spartan_Disiplin]

7:16 Beard also called ''sakal'' in Turkish.

[@HotZetiGer]

Horchi claimed "Temujin will become a Khan / King" Temujin -ha ha Horchi "if it happens to be true - grant me one wish" Temujin -ok (bam 30 wives!!! - thus Horchi may have become THE ANCESTOR of many Mongolians)

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

Apparently Chinggis made him wait around 30 years before granting the wish. I wonder if Qorchi kept annoying the khan with constant reminders: "you promised me as many women as I wanted! Where are they??"

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

@benjamindo8142 I know the show and have watched a few clips, but have not seen it in full. From what I have seen, the costumes can be a little weak and the battles somewhat fanciful (both things probably a result of budget; every production always try to save some money by reusing props and costumes where they can) but from what I have heard, it seems like it was written by people who had done a lot of reading on the subject, and they sometimes reference fairly obscure events (such as Qorchi's request of Chinggis Khan!). I am impressed that they incorporated that, I think that's very cool. it seems a lot of Mongolians, in my experience, hold that show as one of the better productions on the khan's life. I really should watch it in full one day, it used to (and may still be) on KZbin with subtitles.

[@Spartan_Disiplin]

5:14 So you say,Yelü Chuca, one of most important figures in early Mongol Empire,wrote book for destroy the Monk guy and that book survived today ?

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

Yes sir! It's mostly Chucai explaining why he thinks Qiu Chuji is a liar and how Chucai feels bad for putting him into contact with Chinggis, but it also has some very interesting observations about Chucai's observations on newly conquered territory in Central Asia. It was written around 1228 or so, shortly after Qiu Chuji's death (though it seems it was not really circulated).

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

So not only does it survive, but it also has an English translation by the late Igor de Rachewiltz: Yelü Chucai. “The Hsi-yu lu 西 遊 錄 by Yeh-lü Ch’u-ts’ai 耶 律 楚 材.” Translated by Igor de Rachewiltz. Monumenta Serica 21 (1962): 1-128. If you cannot find a copy online, you can email me and I will be happy to send it to you.

[@ShamanKvrt]

great! thanks!

[@KhansDen]

It's refreshing that you talked about the religious believes of the Mongol people. It's a topic that gets ignored so often, even in academia. Which isn't even inappropriate as the high shamans always had an important role within the high administration of steppe states.

[@ze_kangz932]

I have a question for you relating the mongols: it is much sais that the mongols disintegrated because they were nomads and couldn't consolidate thier power for long. But wasn't it also the case for the arabs? The arabs never really had a civilisation until the advent of mohammed. But yet, there are Arab monarchies today while the mongols are pretty much irrelevant, though both started off as nomads. Can you please explain why, or even better, make a video on this topic if possible?! Thank you

[@henkstersmacro-world]

👍👍👍

[@ironmiketyson220]

Why did monke purge the house of Ogedie and chagatai?

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

So the official reason, is that after his enthronement Möngke discovered a plot against him by members of the Ögedeyids and Chagatayids, and Möngke therefore had to uncover everyone involved in the conspiracy. However, it served as an excuse for Möngke to remove any one who he felt might have opposed him, since those houses had generally showed the most resistance to his accession. The Ögedeyids in particular, believe (probably with good reason) that Chinggis Khan had intended to stay within the line of Ögedei, and therefore the Toluids could not legally become Great Khan. Möngke "fixed this" by removing as many of them as he could.

[@CJ-fs1zr]

I always wondered if the trope of mongols taking women too put it mildly was just a trope or had basis in reality And if so if they were worse then other armies at that time

[@Spartan_Disiplin]

I watched your last mamluk video with Kings and Generals. The text was detailed but fluent as in the other videos, but the drawings were far from reflecting the Mamluks realistically. He likened them to stereotypical Arab warriors, both physically and in terms of their clothing. As far as I understand, the person making the drawing has no knowledge of the subject and does not do any research. He draws whatever suits his mind. Can you help him with the drawings for the mamluks in the new videos ? It would be nice if he took your drawings as a model.

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

I actually had sent a lot of material that could have been used as reference; not a lot of made it into the final video.

[@Spartan_Disiplin]

​@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I would be very pleased if care taken to draw historically accurate Mamluks and other Turks in the new videos.

[@ikengaspirit3063]

What was the Mongol position on a corpse being eaten by a wild animal?. Similar to Zoroastrians that thought it was right or the opposite?.

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

Kind of depends on the person's status. We see indications of a few different burial customs among the Mongols. Most usually burial: so we have a number of 12th-14th burials were the individual (usually a nobleman) was placed in a coffin buried in a tomb or even a cave, and the body was clearly not left exposed to wild animals or birds on the steppe. However, we know from sources that sometimes they would bury just the head if it was not possible to transport the entire body (i.e., due to battlefield circumstances) in which case the remains are likely left behind to be eaten. For certain nobles, another custom was to leave their bodies on high locations where they would be exposed to elements, and then just their bones buried in a permanent location (this is what Jamuqa asks Temüjin to do for him in the Secret History of the Mongols). Presumably, part of this exposure entailed the remains being eaten by (especially, given the emphasis on them being in elevated locations) wild birds.

[@trueordrue]

Tanir ❤

[@Karlsewak-kempetai]

I have a question, Is Tengrism influenced by Scythian religion or ancient Proto- Vedic religion of steppe? Eternal Skyfather(Tenri) concept looks lot like Dyaus Pitra, Jupiter(greek)

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

I am not a specialist in religious matters so would be very hesitant to answer that. I would caution against making the comparison; it may be a case where they look similar "while very zoomed out," but closer inspection would reveal those similarities are only there if you look at them from a very particular view. Such as the skyfather aspect; personally this doesn't seem too difficult something for different groups of humans to come up with independently, and there isn't the etymological link that connects the Indo-European concepts of the "Zeus/Dyaus" figure. I think it would be a very interesting research topic to explore and would be very curious to see if people could make the connections, but I myself do not have the research background to investigate that.

[@Karlsewak-kempetai]

@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I really appreciate your reply, Thank you for your time.

[@elshebactm6769]

🗿👍

[@MK-br3gl]

My muslim wife says Chinggis was sufi muslim 😂😂😂

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

I could find you chronicles written by Mongol Empire-successor khanates that state the same thing; or in earlier ones, that he was a Muslim in all but name, just needed to say the shahada. Or similar things with Buddhism. Presumably he'd have been a bit confused by it all.

[@ClassicPengins]

@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory why do they do that?

[@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory]

@@ClassicPengins Why do later sources "change" the religion of Chinggis Khan? Mostly, later accounts and histories will tend to focus on justifying or explaining current conditions rather than seeking to describe the past, in the way that we imagine histories to do today. So for example, later histories written in the 1500s/1600s of the Golden Horde/Jochid lands by Ottemish Hajji or Abu'l Ghazi Bahadir Khan, include additions that emphasize their importance of Jochi's son Shiban, for example (whose descendants were at that time in power in the region), even creating episodes where Chinggis gives extra lands to Shiban (despite having no 13th/14th century sources that corroborate that, and Shiban not being particularly prominent in these early accounts). These are after-the-fact justifications that get woven into the historical accounts (such as Rashid al-Din's) that they are already reusing. It's very common around the world (and to some extents, even today) to do such things.

[@KD400_]

And ur not Muslim urself?

[@MK-br3gl]

@@KD400_no