Discussion with Michael and Justin

[@joeriv4151]

Travis sticking javelins in evangelical hearts like a modern day Teancum 😂

[@alejandrovalenzuela377]

I don’t know why I do this to Myself. Every time I watch these I get heartburn from frustration but I can’t stop. Curse you Travis.

[@ranteumptom7345]

I’m a glutton for punishment as well

[@Killthesefears]

😂😂

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

I keep watching them too. It's weirdly fascinating to observe these fanatics, but I also appreciate Travis' example of refusing to be taken in by their manias and manipulation.

[@sjstlaurent]

I think the great thing about these videos is it’s a combo of learning info about religion as well as comedic gold.

[@marcusmiller6291]

Travis I love your mind brother. I can not respect you more highly than I do. Thank you for your KZbin videos.

[@marcusmiller6291]

I am firm in the knowledge and my understanding is Correct but if you can accurately and objectively have a good argument I will listen and try to understand or even change my mind. Thank you Travis

[@SimonDaumMusic]

At one point I started a YT channel to address many of the Evangelical videos and claims, but seeing how well versed you are and how well you do that work, it wont need any of that. Very impressive and I really enjoy your discussions a lot, keep them comming, its a great source of deepening ones understanding of things in their context.

[@batboy12394]

I love the multiple standards from the guests: "I believe the KJV because it was compiled by really good scholars, but you can't believe that it is mistaken because you are just believing the words of scholars." Also, "why do you believe those things about Jesus and the bible? Why do you believe what others have said? Can you read it yourself?" but they are then quick to start pulling passages from the Book of Mormon as if they know what they are talking about without having read it at all. They are just parroting what others have said. I also think it's funny that they view you pointing out that they haven't read the Book of Mormon as an insult. To me it reveals that they have some element of shame or embarrassment in that moment when they realize that they really don't have a leg to stand on. I admire your patience in dealing with many of these types of discussions. Your description of the "born at Jerusalem" parts of the Book of Mormon was good. Unfortunately, I think they got hung up on anytime you might have suggested that the Bible makes similarly vague explanations. I've always viewed it just like you said. These people on another continent have no concept of the individual towns around Jerusalem. They only know where Lehi left from. So to say he is born at Jerusalem gives them all they need to understand. On my mission, I was often asked where I am from. Few people in Europe are familiar with all the cities in the Midwest, so I would say "near Chicago" even though it's several hours away. I would never say that to someone in the US, but it was sufficient for someone in their context to get a general idea based on what they might know of the US.

[@colinbaxter1022]

Flat earth levels of critical thinking by Justin here.

[@ProbeScout]

They share the same epistemeology. In my experience, when these people finally realize and understand what cosmology is displayed in the Bible, that's exactly what happens

[@kobidoggy7575]

Thanks Travis for correcting those little kids mistakes.

[@leroythomas1850]

I really enjoy your work it's so good it's really annoying the exmo crowd lol😂

[@DannyAGray]

Justin is the biggest damn headache. This could have been super productive, but Justin screwed everything.

[@treystone9464]

The village of Bethlehem Is next to Jerusalem (5 miles), it could be correctly called a providence or suburb of the "Land" or "City-State" of Jerusalem. The territory of ancient cities was dictated not by a wall, but typically by things like area it can defend, the position of archers and how far arrows can reach, far beyond the wall. Hugh Nibley showed in 1957 that one of the Amarna letters, written in the 13th century B.C. and discovered in 1887, recounted the capture of "a city of the land of Jerusalem, Bet-Ninib" (The Collected Works of Hugh Nibley: Volume 6 in An Approach to the Book of Mormon]). The wording used to say Jesus was to be born, "at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers" (Alma 7 v10) does not say "in the city," of Jerusalem, and similar wording is used about the land their forefather Lehi dwelt. Lehi had “dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days” (1 Nephi 1 v4) but clearly not "in the city" of Jerusalem, we know when his precious possessions were retrieved by Nephi, it was via a walk outside the walls of the city, "down", to get them. Lehi lived in the Land of the Jerusalem and could have lived in Bethlehem; both can be true.

[@ranteumptom7345]

I live in a relatively unknown town in Tennessee. When on my mission in Chile, people would ask what part of the USA I was from. I would usually just say Tennessee. If they wanted me to be more specific, I would say I lived near Nashville.

[@Killthesefears]

I’m with you on the physical discomfort

[@skilledrex294]

That conversation came to an abrupt end. I had a feeling you were going to convert them. Dangit.

[@Dreeeeeg]

I really appreciate members of the church like Travis. We need more scholars and theologians who can debunk all these false theories from evangelical Christian’s who don’t want to learn and are just blinded by their own ignorance and stuck in their ways. No different than Pharisees from the past. They profess to be wise but become fools. How can you logically believe the King James translation of the Bible into English is an infalible copy of the Bible when it’s not in it’s original language? Travis clearly destroys both of these guys but they refuse to admit that they’re wrong. Michael never approached the missionaries with a genuine desire to learn. He wanted to trap them but the missionaries directed him to Travis who didn’t know that Michael would invite Justin to help him trap Travis who ended up making both of them look foolish and run from the conversation. I get that these kinds of debates don’t edify much but sometimes this is the only way to address the naysayers…

[@peterblair4448]

I already love your animatrons and commentary on the discussions.

[@beautheone]

Justin was such an embarrassment to himself. It’s probably a good thing that his complete lack of anything remotely resembling a modicum of intelligence is now here on public display for everyone to see. Well done Travis!

[@treystone9464]

The doctrine of Creato Ex Nihilo (Creation from Nothing) has no ancient context. This idea was not evident to Early Christian writers before Tatian and Theophilus. Creato Ex Nihlio derives not from the KJV Bible, it derives from texts like the Shepherd of Hermas and 2 Maccabees that uses words that describes creation as a piece of art, like a painter or potter. A potter does create things from non-being, not nothing, he used clay to form a bowl, where a bowl didn’t exist. The bowl didn't exist, but the clay existed, so being "created" like art does not mean to be made from nothing. Instead, the ancient Jews interpreted Genesis as a creation out of chaotic matter, water or 'hyle', the primeval element, "formless matter" which God used to make the heavens and earth (Gen 1 v1; Job 37 v6; Wisdom of Solomon 11 v17; 2 Enoch 28 v2). There is nothing in the Bible that was created from nothing. Nowhere in the six-day creation scheme of Genesis 1 does God create; the planet which was “without form (in chaos)", the water, and the void, the wind, the angels, the throne, the abyss, all preexisting things and uncreated materials in which the uninhabitable world was made habitable. In other Biblical Creation accounts, on the first day the light was created, not from nothing but was forged out of pre-existent darkness. The psalmist says that God took existing light and stretched it out (Ps 104 v2). Isaiah says God “formed [yotzer] light and create [borei] darkness” (Isaiah 45 v7). The Hebrew here is saying the light was formed out of the darkness. If you form something from something that already exists means that what you created already existed inside of it. Genesis 1 gives the impression that the planet already exists before Day One in chaos , the Spirit hovering over the waters before the light came, then the third day the water was drained to expose dry land. Psalm 104 states the waters already existed when God created his heavenly palace, before God created the heaven and the earth. The doctrine of creation ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) might of had some foundation only if one translates its first verse as "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" and understands it to refer to some comprehensive creative act on the first day. Instead, the heavens were created on the second day from the pre-existing waters, and the earth came forth from the same waters on the third day, “Let the water below the sky be gathered into one area, that the dry land may appear” (Gen 1:9). Other Jewish sources say the water itself was the material that the land was made from, that the water solidified to become earth. As the first century Jewish Scholar Philo of Alexandria says the “earth and water being mingled together and kneaded like a mass of dough, into a single element, without shape or distinction of its parts” (Philo, On Creation 38). This seems to be exactly what the Apostle Peter believed; that the waters preexisted the creation, and that this preexisting material was utilized to make everything. God created "the heaven and earth" by "forming" them out of the pre-existing matter of "water" (2 Peter 3:5). My point is: Jews and Apostles believed God made the earth out of matter, its only much later Christians who came to believe the earth was made out of nothing to secure the omnipotence of God in the eyes of Neo-Platonic philosophers in Rome and match the qualities of a pagan god Plato called "The One".

[@kobidoggy7575]

Travis 👌👍♥️🙏

[@coolblubird]

"How do we know god didnt give me this in english?" What.

[@luizaraos.soteroluiz5327]

My gosh! Some evangelicals seem to live in Narnia.

[@Lifebertarian]

Really well done. When they say the Bible is clear, ask them: "Perfectly clear?" as in, the God of Heaven in whom all things are possible, couldn't make it more clear? Okay, so where does it stand on infant baptisms? Can we dance? Was the earth created in 6 24 hour periods? I learned a lot here, thanks!

[@ranzelganzon850]

I'm learning a lot from Travis! 😊

[@CryptoCPA]

I don’t know how you do it Travis. That Justin guy had me pulling out my hair. His purposeful ignorance and complete lack of critical thinking ability was so bad it became comical. Is he a product of Florida public schools or is this a mind virus spread by evangelicals? That guy could stand outside under the noon day sun and claim it was night time.

[@DragonZlayerx12]

Do they know what a presupposition is?

[@gbengoosewuru4139]

1:02:01 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@ranzelganzon850]

MICHAEL IF YOU WANT TO LEARN, DO NOT INVITE A DETRACTOR !

[@My_Personal_Taste]

Interesting

[@joelblessing1532]

How about before we find historical eras in the Bible you show where the Book of Mormon happened historically? That’s a bigger problem.

[@joelblessing1532]

Why not start by examining the original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon- gold plates? It’s disturbing to see how they’re trying to bring the Bible down to the level of the Book of Mormon to support their claims. This approach is similar to how their false prophet created the Book of Mormon in the first place.

[@mmaspidermonkey]

Travis's goal is to talk down to people and be a jerk. I'm surprised anyone tries to talk to him. it's actually sad. There is evidence that the kjv is the word of god. Anyone I've suggested checking it to, with the request they show me the same in the BOM and i will believe the BOM is the word of God.... ghosts me and has no response.

[@daisybee1439]

Speak to James White who will enlighten you to the truthfulness of the Bible.

[@stevenredinger9972]

The Book of Mormon not a collection of Books? Some FLDS have more books in their BoM than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[@williamfarnbach9028]

The comment is meant to contrast the Bible. The Bible is a collection of texts by authors who had no idea that they'd be associated with any of the other texts. The Book of Mormon, in contrast, has a single editor, with a specific narrative mandate, who correlated other ancient texts into one cohesive book.