Discussion with Tom Shippey on his Beowulf Translation

I had the incredible opportunity to chat with Tom Shippey, distinguished medievalist and Tolkien scholar, about his new translation of Beowulf, edited by Leonard Neidorf. We discuss Tolkien’s relationship with the Old English poem as well as themes from it and some of the linguistic choices that Shippey made as a translator.
KZbin channel for Uppsala Books: ‪@UppsalaBooks‬
Tom Shippey's website: tomshippey.com/
Uppsala Books website: uppsalabooks.com/

[@UppsalaBooks]

Thanks, Philip, for creating this beautiful conversation! We really appreciate it.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

The pleasure is mine! Congratulations on the production of such a marvelous contribution to Beowulf studies!

[@allenchase4388]

How nice to listen to people who know what they're talking about. A rare treat!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

It does seem somewhat rare on the internet, doesn’t it? 😁

[@HP-qj4gz]

Discovered by miracle of algorithm, your discussion was very absorbing, with a perfect blend of discussion and interjection. Thank you.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Sometimes the algorithm works! Thank you for the feedback - I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion. Tom Shippey is a legend.

[@UppsalaBooks]

Thanks!

[@LiamsLyceum]

Shippey is so savagely astute, or as he put it once, he has a black belt in pedantry. Great discussion and hosting, Philip! This is peak booktube right here, legendary.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

“A black belt in pedantry” - ha ha! Thank you, Liam. I completely agree with how sharp Tom Shippey is - a rare academic who brings something new to beloved texts.

[@MacScarfield]

A Marvelous Discussion! Such a joy listening to your discussion while reading the final pages of “Return to Edan”! It might not be a surprise that the Mid-6th Century Devastation of Europe is one of my favorite historical topics!😅 From a Norwegian perspective, one went from from a warming climate period with growth of both local production (iron ore and gold workings) and traded artifacts (such as Gold Bracteates, Roman Gold Coins reworked into medallions by Hunnic and Germanic King on the Continent) and expansion of farmsteads and around 15-20 Petty Kingdoms along the Norwegian Coast in the Late Roman Period (300-500 AD) followed by a roughly 100 year long “silent period” with little archaeological evidence between the Mid-6th and Mid-7th Century, with a severe degradation of both quality and quantity of both local production and traded wares, a depopulation of nearly half of the farmsteads and the number of Petty Kingdoms reduced to half that number by 700 AD! This has been linked to either volcanic activity or a rather large asteroid (or maybe both!) around 536 AD, which either caused or contributed to a climatic cooling, which caused major starvation, followed by the Justinian Plague of 541-542: While the Eastern Mediterranean was the most affected region (perhaps up to 25 million or half the population of what then remained of the Roman Empire!), it is calculated to to have hit all of Europe, Northern-Africa and Western & Southern Asia! Even among serious scholars, this has been suggested and quite accepted to be a possible inspiration for the Fimbul Winter and Ragnarok Apocalypse of Norse Mythology, while the more outrageous theories suggest that if it was a comet involved, that might it be the inspiration for the wolves swallowing the Sun and the Moon during Ragnarok, the Red Dragon of Arthurian Myth, and (the most disputed theory I have heard surrounding the topic) Tsunamis from the North Sea to the Yucatán Peninsula! And zooming out from Scandinavia: The devastation of the Justinian Reconquest of Italy and the never-ending Byzantine-Persian Wars, combined with the final collapse of the perhaps ten over 2000 year old Marib Dam in Southern Arabia/Arabia Felix (Good/Happy Arabia) as the Romans called it/Modern-day Yemen, is suggested to have caused/contributed to a migration from Southern Arabia northward, completely uprooting the social structure of Arabia, leaving fertile ground for a new social order to grow under a new unifying faith: Islam.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

That is fascinating, MacScarfield! I love the idea that aspects of myth might have come from real world events. I’m certain that such devastation must have left many ripples in its wake, not to mention a strong impact on the minds of generations. I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion!

[@MacScarfield]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Yeah, it challenges some traditional ideas, such as the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the late 5th Century as the start of an “Dark Age”: One might suggest the Roman Civil Wars of the 3th & 4th Century as the start of one or as mentioned the Mid-6th Century Devastation one, but the Germanic Kingdoms established in the 5th Century, seems in most if not all cases, to have left the cities and provinces largely to be ruled as before, and they might even have experienced some growth, being relieved of funding Imperial (Civil) Wars, Armies, Courts and Bureaucracy in exchange for a Germanic Warrior Nobility and the Church! As such, the “Arthurian Age” of the late 5th & the early 6th Centuries, might even have been seen as a short “Golden Age” or at least a period of some growth, before the devastation of the Mid-6th Century. And even that, which I definitely would have considered a “Dark Age”, might only have lasted a rough century or two until the 8th Century. I can highly recommend “River Kings” by Cat Jarman, which excellently describes how the Viking Age fitted into the Economic Ecosystem of the growing Frankish Empire, the Abbasid Caliphate and the (regrowing) Byzantine Empire! If I am to be placed into a Historical School of Thought, I know that myself and several of my classmates are endeared to the Late Professor Donald Kagan of Yale’s concept of “Higher Naïveté” (Professor Kagan’s “Introduction to Ancient Greece” available here on YT, is an excellent example: “I (Kagan) think the way to deal with legends is to regard them as different from essentially sophisticated historical statements, but as possibly deriving from facts, which have obviously been distorted and misunderstood, misused and so on. But it would be reckless, it seems to me, to just put them aside and not ask yourself the question, “Can there be something believable at the root of this?”) as a reaction to the Linguistic Turn/Post-Structionalism/Post-Modernism that dominated our teachers: I believe one professor called us (slightly resigned and derisive from his view, but have I rather embraced the terms) “Neo-Empiricists”: Embracing the cooperation of the fields (linguistic AND material) for common knowledge, availability for the greater public and honesty when presenting debates/disagreements, and rejecting the Linguistic/Post-Modern concepts of “history is fiction” and “language is power/tool of oppression” as unhelpful and perhaps even harmful, given how rejecting any notion of a capital “Truth” (while perhaps with good intentions of unveiling unfair power structures and as healthy reaction to a purely materialistic view of history), has been weaponized into had what I can only describe as a genuine moral degradation and polarization in the Current Culture War of “Alternative Facts”, where ironically who you are and what you say, is given more importance than what you do, both for “the left” and “the right” (generally speaking, with obvious local differences of course). Despite any differences I might have with him, I to this day admire the integrity of my professor in Political Economics when presenting Neo-Liberalism, Marxism and Keynesianism: While he was a stated leftist and Marxist, he had studied the Chicago School of Economics at UChi and genuinely presented their arguments. An example is how he on one hand presented his own story of a kid growing up in the gang-ridden Mexican Ghetto of Chicago becoming a Professor in wealthy Norway from a neoliberal view as an example of “pulling himself by his bootstraps” and individual drive and aspirations, while from a leftist perspective later ask: “Why is my story so rare? Why are there so few others who “made it” from where I grew up?”. While I personally view myself as a (Classical) Keynesian (oh, how very typical Scandinavian Centrist I am! 😅), I will forever cherish his integrity in presenting his opponents sincerely, something I strive to do myself!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@MacScarfield Very interesting! It's pretty cool and not all that surprising that the Dark Ages might not have been so uniformly dark. We humans mostly like our narratives neat and simple, but reality has other ideas.

[@MacScarfield]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Speaking of the theme of generosity/greed: I have been listening a lot to Farya Farija’s rendition of an Medieval Byzantine song/poem (available here on YT), “Tornike the Georgian”, about an Georgian Warrior (“Tornike the Bloodstained”, no less!) leaving his old life behind (“Farewell, Tornike the Redstained!”) to follow the “road of Love” and become a monk in Greece (which reminded me of how the Viking King Olav Tryggvason some how survived the Battle of Svolder and became an old monk in Syria, in the Flatøybok Saga which I have mentioned a couple of times before), especially the chorus line: “And those mountains, they sang/And I had forgotten those wise words/And I shall live by these words of the mountains”: "That which we give makes us richer, that which is hoarded is lost."

[@MacScarfield]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Just listened to Shippey talking to Jackson Crawford where he mentioned that he was born in Calcutta/Kolkata during the British Raj, so his first languages was Nepali (due to his Aya/Nanny) and Hindi! So we might have to make him an honorary member of our “Nepali Dinner Trauma Support Group”! 😆 More seriously, I would love to hear you talk to him on the Indo-European links between European and South Asian Legends, as well as your novels! Cheers!

[@vaughnroycroft999]

I bought Author of the Century on a whim shortly after its release. I'd seen Peter Jackson's film version of Fellowship, and decided I was overdue for a reread of the trilogy. I then discovered my old Ballantine paperbacks were getting a bit fragile, and decided to save them the wear. Went to the bookshop to get new copies, saw and picked up Author of the Century from the very impressive display (to capitalize on the movie release), and I'm very glad I did. Tom Shippey is a part of my journey to becoming a writer. Much appreciated. Very interesting discussion, gentlemen. Thanks for hosting, Philip!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Tom Shippey's explorations of medieval literature and Tolkien's works have had a tremendous impact on my scholarship and my appreciation of literature. He's a legend! Cheers, Vaughn!

[@herdyhely3496]

What a great man Prof Shippey is! Thank you for the interview

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks so much for watching and commenting!

[@UppsalaBooks]

Thanks!

[@esmayrosalyne]

Finally watched this after hearing you talk about it again in the latest DDF, and I am kicking myself for not watching it sooner!! This was such a fun and insightful discussion, and I am just thrilled for you that you got this opportunity! Thanks so much for sharing this special moment with us! 🤩

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Esmay! Tom Shippey is a legend, and I still can’t believe I got to chat with him!

[@UppsalaBooks]

Thanks!!

[@wolf-e2432]

Thank you for this video. It was a pleasure. I wanted to add to the discussion. Shippey makes a great point about Tolkien's respect for pre-Christian culture, but I think his argument about the two uses of the word "heathen" isn't necessary to make that point because as Shippey knows there is a tradition in Germanic mythology/folklore that people turn into dragons (greedy, kin-killers - just one example Fafnir and his lineage). So a case can be made that referring to the dragon as heathen is like using the term with a person. Also, the "heathen horde" is wonderfully alliterative phrase and is also a negative moral judgement of greediness (an animal, the dragon, reflecting negative human behavior). It also works like an adjective in the sense of "ancient" (a former time, a past time which was morally problematic). The term "heathen" in this context definitely, in my opinion, creates social and cultural "distance" from the past. I am equally cautious when using the term "heathen." I have found the phrases "ancestral religion, ancestral traditions, or ancestral ways" often seamlessly fill the use of the word "heathen" in a thought or sentence. With that said, the term "heathen" has its place which both the Beowulf author and Tolkien (among others) rightly demonstrate. Thanks again for the wonderful interview.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m so glad you enjoyed the discussion! The word “heathen” is, as your comment shows, rich with connotations and etymological history. Cheers!

[@walkingwriter4325]

I enjoyed your interview! Tom Shippey is featured prominently on all three of Peter Jackson's "The Lord of the Rings" Extended Edition DVDs which I bought about 20 years ago. He provides much commentary (which I've watched several times) in the DVD documentaries about Tolkien's life, his writing and the making of the movies. He's always entertaining and a delight to listen to, even on topics I'm not fully familiar with. Thanks for posting!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion! Yes, Shippey is an extremely accomplished medievalist, but he’s also a renowned Tolkien scholar. Thank you for watching!

[@marianapgar4409]

What a treat to get to listen to this discussion! Thank you, Philip.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you for watching - I’m glad you enjoyed it, Marian!

[@Altruismisreal27]

Excellent interview and discussion! 👏👏

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you so much -- I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@thefantasythinker]

I was in the perfect mood to watch this excellent lecture this morning. Thank you for having on such a wonderful guest!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m glad you enjoyed it, Jarrod - thank you for watching!

[@DanExploresBooks]

Bookmarked to watch later tonight! What a treat. Will be picking up the translation.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

The video will be waiting for you, Dan! The translation is excellent!

[@DanExploresBooks]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Got a chance so far with about 30 mins. Amazing. This is one of those people that if were speaking with a room filled with 500 people, you wouldn't hear a pin-drop apart from their voice. He has such an amazing understanding. I'm surprised you aren't sweating on your face. You are a really great listener in these interviews with people. It brings out some great things.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@DanExploresBooks Thanks, Dan! Tom Shippey is a legend, and I was definitely slightly nervous, but I did my homework by reading his translation thoroughly. It also helps that I’ve read some of his other books and have been studying Old English for more than thirty years. I’m still a lightweight next to Shippey, though.

[@DanExploresBooks]

​@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Absolutely. You were well prepared to steer the ship well. Really fun discussion here and great to see new interests (Beowulf) discussed at this level outside of a classroom.

[@avra7105]

Great interview, it must be surreal to admire someone for so many years and then get to interview them, a full circle.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

"Surreal" is exactly the right word. Cheers!

[@Johanna_reads]

Hooray for the elves!! Tolkien got it right. I loved the nuanced interpretations regarding luck and fate. What a treat to watch a discussion with Tom Shippey on your channel, Philip! Thank you both!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Tolkien forgot about assassin elves, though! 😁 I’m so glad you enjoyed this discussion, Johanna. It was a very meaningful one for me. Cheers!

[@Johanna_reads]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy 🤣You certainly didn't forget about the assassin variety! I'm so happy for you!!!

[@DoUnicornsRead]

Such a great conversation! And what an impressive scholar! I learned more in that one hour than in my time in university when I had to study (and translate parts of) Beowulf. Anybody who translates the entire text therefore has my total admiration. This must have been so special to you, Philip. And, thank you so much, for sharing your passions with us in such accessible and enjoyable way!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I'm so glad you enjoyed the discussion, Angela! As you guessed, this was a very special moment for me -- a chance to chat with one of my heroes.

[@jeremyfee]

This is such an amazing guest! Just from the first 10 minutes so far, I'm loving listening to this discussion.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Jeremy! Tom Shippey is amazingly accomplished, and I feel fortunate to have had this opportunity to chat with him.

[@LiamsLyceum]

That other book, Beowulf and the North Before the Vikings, is also a superb read. Highly recommend.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Every book I've read by Shippey has been engaging and enlightening, so I definitely believe you, Liam. I noticed that you enjoyed Shippey's Beowulf translation too. Cheers!

[@yusuffulat6954]

great discussion !

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks so much!

[@mirkoeinhorn09]

That was such a great and interesting conversation with lots of exciting insights! I could listen to you both for hours. Especially your Old English recitations, too, Philip! 😅 You could tell that this was a special conversation for you. It was nice to witness that. 😊

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Mirko! I guess the stupid grin on my face gave me away 😁. It was indeed a very special conversation for me, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. All the best!

[@Paromita_M]

Your graciousness as a host was beautiful to watch. Thank you. 🙏🏽 Prof Chase I was wondering if you have anything more planned on Ms Le Guin? Been thinking a bit more on fantasy authors whose works will hopefully live on long past we have gone and my hope is Earthsea is on that list along with LOTR and some other favourites. Would love to hear your thoughts on this topic. I also wanted to ask you a related question please: With Nobel season going on, if you wished one SFF author to be awarded the Nobel in Literature (alive or no more with us), who would it be and why?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you so much, Paromita! I do indeed have a plan to finish reading all of Le Guin's Earthsea books and make a video that is an overview ("why you should read") about all things Earthsea. I will have to finish a few other obligations first, but perhaps near the end of this year. Also, Le Guin would be the perfect candidate for the Nobel Prize in Literature!

[@Paromita_M]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy We 💯 align on that Prof Chase. They missed their chance to honour a true legend. But she will remain in her works and our hearts. I very much look forward to the Earthsea video. Have a good week ahead!

[@mistersharpe4375]

38:20 One of my favourite examples of Tolkien's synthesis of conflicting ideas is Oromë in the Silmarillion. Obviously Oromë is a heroic figure who hunts monsters and leads the elves on their journey to Valinor. But Melkor gets to the elves first and spreads grim rumours of a Dark Hunter who preys upon them. I have little doubt that Tolkien had the legends of the Wild Hunt in mind, explaining their presence in contrast with more benign examples of the "fairy huntsman" like Arawn in the Mabinogion.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I’m confident you’re right about that. Thanks for the comment and for watching!

[@acaciabaker5935]

Shippey and Tolkein provide the 2 best beowulf translations, all others pale. Tom Shipoys website has links gor lecture learning and many valuable publications, no self respecting tolkein fans should miss as he provides a larger landscape to understanding what tolkein drew from.

[@acaciabaker5935]

Gotta love autocorrect

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I love both Shippey’s and Tolkien’s translations, though I think they show distinct approaches. Tolkien’s prose translation is incredibly poetic, while Shippey’s poetic translation is often very practical. Both are brilliant and invaluable contributions to their field. Cheers!

[@acaciabaker5935]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy really enjoyed your interview (big shippey fan and supporter) and the readings in old english, i could listen all day- more OE audio books would be grand in general ;) thanks for your work, i subscribed

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@acaciabaker5935 Many thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed the video!

[@mudhuthanudimmudkahagadulh4657]

Translated from English into creole English (modern English)

[@cabrademora1]

:D

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Diego!

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Historians are weird... 🤣

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

They should be more normal - like medievalists! 😁

[@jeremyfee]

This is such an amazing guest! Just from the first 10 minutes so far, I'm loving listening to this discussion.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank you, Jeremy! It was a very special discussion for me!