...Dive or ...Headlock? | Wrestling With Wregret

[@ellibod1]

Bret Hart, he could headlock, he could dive Tito Santana, he could headlock, he could dive Ricky Steamboat, he could headlock, he could dive Randy Savage, he could headlock, he could dive Chris Jericho, he could headlock, he could dive the list goes on. Point is you shouldn't be exclusively one style of wrestling because you either become boring, or you get injured. Any great wrestler can adapt to the world around them, sometimes you need to headlock, sometimes you need to dive, if you know when it's best to dive or headlock then that is how you become a legend like those I mentioned above

[@EmeraldZion]

...stunt granny

[@anjake01]

JacobZion Brian should make a shirt based on this

[@doomgoy9462]

if there was a team diving headlock, wouldnt it be called team bulldog?

[@rj1157bk]

i think it be someone jumping off the top rope, landing on their feet and then lock someone in a headlock for 20 mins.

[@misterprickly]

Or a *sliced bread*.

[@anthonynorman7545]

Misterprickly sliced bread no. 2

[@misterprickly]

Ah yes!

[@ThatFlyPigeon]

That's why you will make it in life ;-)

[@oryan3112]

#TeamDivingHeadlock One can't go wrong with variety.

[@DJD3RPYOfficial]

#TeamDivingHeadlock

[@kane3145]

#TeamDivingHeadlock

[@bbbbKeJodddd]

O'Ryan Dillon so...a bulldog?

[@TheVarietyVendor]

Someone say Variety? ;)

[@AtonicMike]

I think Headlock drives are better! #teamheadlockdrive

[@geoffa87]

I feel like what a lot of young wrestlers are missing is the context of the big spot. Mick Foley took some insane bumps, but if you look it was usually in the context of a red hot fued, IE his Hell in a Cell match with Undertaker. If you hit your finishing move and a guy kicks out at 2, what good is that finishing move? Or to put it another way, how many guys kicked out of the tombstone piledriver? how many kicked out of a stunner? Not many. There doesn't seem to be much psychology in wrestling anymore.

[@keithharper1470]

geoffa87 first time I ever seen Taker use the tombstone more than once was wm14 against Kane but that was telling a story of how Kane was a monster that it took 3 tombstones to finish him. Later in age I got why Taker needed more than 1 tombstone it was the opponents became more difficult to beat. Lesnar needed 3 F5's to end the streak because 1 would not do it that was a part of the story of ending the streak

[@NeroPiroman]

VENOM GAMING. But roman survived 4 f5s #gottomakeromanlookstrong

[@terrencethompson2941]

I'm on neither team. I just want matches and feuds to actually have meaning and depth. WWE gets it from time to time. But sadly most of the time it is just filler.

[@Venemofthe888]

Terrence Thompson #teamstory

[@TheHagfish]

Terrence Thompson So basically team Headlock

[@waun87]

Terrence Thompson right there with you. Although, I am a little annoyed about a excessively they are doing certain moves.

[@duckrutt]

It feels like they write backwards most of the time. This is the match we want at Summer Slam so start a feud with these guys, oops someone got hurt are they going to be back in time? Then keep the story going even if it makes no sense if not then slide someone else into the match. All our wrestlers are basically the same right?

[@waun87]

duckrutt lol I agree. They're so bad at that. It's the plug n play of the same booking playbook they use that kills me. I always say that WWE's writing motto should be: "WWE, It's doesn't have to make sense to be on tv." Like RAW, more specifically three hours of it has sucked the life out of me lately. I've tried SO HARD to get into it, but they left me no choice but to reduce down to 90 mins on Hulu maybe even just highlights on KZbin. RAW last night was SO uneventful and lack luster in the writing. Omg.

[@NeverWaver]

This is why Zane is the best wrestling channel.

[@RocaDeearCenjar]

Zane is a person.

[@jethed2]

ironically this is exactly what the miz was saying to Daniel Bryan on smack talk a year ago

[@jamesperdomo7055]

Luis Vasquez Give this man a Nobel prize

[@Torthrodhel]

yeah and he was right

[@omegamark9178]

What ticks me off is no one ever called miz out on it. Bryan was right when he called him the definition of the boring, "headlock",wwe-style. Can you actually recall a great miz match? No. He's a great promo, but a permanent mid-carder. Never will be world champion cause the only thing heavyweight about him, is his wife's ****.

[@anyoneelsebutme5757]

@@omegamark9178 you do know he was wwe champion once?

[@ariklion37]

@@omegamark9178 he has great matches and has been world champion so everything you said except about his mic skills were wrong my dude

[@karrazaki89]

I think that the Japanese have found a perfect balance between the two. The Okada/Omega match will be remembered for a lot of crazy, dangerous spots but a good deal of that match was devoted to more traditional, grapplling based wrestling thatw as accentuated in many places by the spots and it´s not the only one: Styles vs Nakamura, Elgin vs Omega, the classic that was Dynamite Kid vs Tiger Mask I.

[@ThatFlyPigeon]

It's the storytelling. WWE can do it too look at Miz/Ziggler at No Mercy that was like the 10th match most of which were forgettable but when you add a good stipulation and a story it was epic.

[@nurandika4563]

if you want to look the dangerous side of NJPW, always look for suzuki/shibata matches. im not even telling you about every taichi matches.

[@okcmidtownrotary4135]

I totally agree. this past sunday was ZSJ vs Tanahashi and it was all technical wrestling on the mat until the end that had some high spots. nobody tells a story like njpw in the ring in the present i would say.

[@Smeeeeeghead]

Why not both? You can very easily mix both to create a slow build style that starts with headlocks and wearing down opponents and building up momentum until the final flurry where all the big moves happen.

[@Smeeeeeghead]

I'm sure they do, your point being?

[@RegretfulDeadMan]

Smeghead That's exactly what I want

[@FakeKraid]

The next time you want to run at the ropes and dive between them at someone: stop. Pick up a phone and call someone instead. You aren't in this alone.

[@sproy1]

Rip Rogers wasn't against diving moves, per se. Think about all the wrestlers from his time who used top rope diving moves as their finishes. Guy like Jimmy Snuka, Randy Savage, the Road Warriors, the list goes on an on. Buddy Rogers - the first WWE Champion - was able to get himself over by using "flying" moves more frequently than other wrestlers of his time. No, Rip Rogers is against flying moves being the equivalent of rest holds. There needs to be a build to the matches. Those high flying moves are good for late in the match, but the entire match should not consist almost entirely of them. In movies, television, books, and many other storytelling mediums, the "climax" - the most exciting part of the story - comes near the end of the movie. Well, there's a REASON for that! There needs to be a build to the action, otherwise it's just blowing shit up for it sown sake. Since wrestling is fake, it needs to tell a story in the ring, since it can no longer rely on sports-esque action to get fans to tune in. That means that, like action movies, there needs to be a build to the action. The climax needs to come at the very end.

[@claybfx]

Great video. Yeah, I do enjoy the high spots, but I'll take a match with solid storytelling and psychology any day. I HATE how often finishers are kicked out of these days

[@jotunn30]

but....you can have both...that's why this argument is so stupid to me...it's not like the style of a match dictates the lack or presence of psychology

[@cocobarbarian1510]

jotunn30 the point is that high spots like suicide dives have become the standard so they never add anything to the match because we see it so often. They just dive out of the ring because they're opponent is outside. And because a suicide dive is the standard people try to top it by doing crazier stunts. They dont do it to add to the story of the match they do it because they wanna look cool/ top another move

[@highdefinitionapollo2189]

Why don't we have both?

[@AMG-ko3gt]

George Zhang I agree!

[@Cobralalalala]

I love all different kinds of styles, from high flying to big man brawls, but I wish people of all styles would learn to tell stories more. Make the things they do in their style mean something.

[@MiztarBriteCide]

*throws Mexican girl in the air*

[@abrarhaider4445]

#TeamChickenwing Long live the Villain!!

[@robertocioffi2523]

Abrar Haider Woop Woop

[@YouTubeViolates1A]

A man of culture I see.

[@KipClips]

#DIVE then Headlock Variety is the spice of life.

[@starhunter9085]

Kip Clips Or you could dive into a headlock. 😁

[@TakerKaneanite619]

Kip Clips Neither for me. I prefer an...... ARMBAR!!!!

[@TheCamSays]

Diving Headlock

[@MrBlazemaster525]

Kip Clips How about the moss-covered three-handled family gredunzel?

[@TheCamSays]

Or a Szechuan Spinning Nerve Hold?

[@Bakesale59]

I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't like seeing repetitive high spots, but I also don't like to watch 20 minutes of rest holds.

[@jazzmaster909]

"But Brian everyone knows you need to be able to do 10 Backflip frankensteiners in a row to be REAL Wrestler. headlocks and power moves are for roided up unathletic goons." - "Those" type of fans

[@jazzmaster909]

Variety is Gold. Vince Likes Big Sweaty Men? yeah He also like Regular Wrestling every now and then

[@mjhardin1354]

Miz vs Ziggler- great match Cena vs michaels- full of headlocks great match Wm 20 main event- great match. Headlocks test your ability to put on a great technical match.

[@AMG-ko3gt]

MJ Hardin Yeah but at least move and go straight technical wrestling on each other.

[@dontenterthischannel2995]

MJ Hardin I agree but with some wrestlers (cough cough Randy Orton) it can be a momentum killer

[@TheJrockfreak]

what was the mania 20 main event?

[@tobylane4794]

I myself am a younger viewer who's not quite out of school and I would much prefer a crossface or some tests of strength over some "rope suicido"s or whatever Mauro calls them. Diving moves are great addition to a match when used sparingly, I don't want to tune into raw, smackdown, or wcpw every week and see people near enough breaks their necks for "entertainment". Their careers are based of the backs of people like Kurt angle and mick foley. The entire reason their big spots are remembered are because they did only 6-7 in their career not 6-7 every match. I like guys like el ligero and tjp but they're putting their bodies on the line for some one off house show match. I just don't think it's worth ending your career for. Jumping off something high doesn't automatically make it a great match, it makes it a great moment for a about a month. Just ask Bret hart, the rock, and triple h very rarely if ever did those guys take huge outside bumps to make a great match with a memorable story

[@scotteggleston7134]

Bret Hart would be team Headlock....I'll just leave this here....

[@ClementsSan]

To be honest I think most wrestlers, dive, headlock or diving headlock, especially in WWE, are wrestling too many singles matches against each other. To the point that 1 on 1 matches, especially in a feud, are not that special. It's over-exposure...Consider a comparison; Kazuchika Okada wrestled about 18 singles matches in 2016, half of them were G1 Climax and the rest were tag matches. Kevin Owens wrestled over 100 singles matches with less than 100 multi man matches. Both were world champions in 2016. WWE need to bring back stables as well. Big stables. Have several that do Firebird rule. Have lower level talent made important, rather than added like an accessory to build the star. Because this insanity can't go on.

[@w1llv1nt4ge9]

Found Teddy Long!

[@simcosimpai8471]

It all comes back to the TV format problem .NXT has a fair amount of singles matches but they are all often unique ,have purpose and gives the audience a grasp of what a win/loss would mean to both wrestlers.RAW in comparison generally is just filler

[@Y2JFAN18375]

Personally I think it's just a new generation of wrestling. The new influx of talent who are trying to make a name for themselves by creating a style that stands out as different. You can't say it has no place in wrestling because all styles have a place in wrestling. It's a common pattern in all forms of entertainment; music, film, tv, podcasts, art, books & literature. A key part of entertainment is variety, something to suite everyone, & that's why I think there is no problem with headlock or ...dive, they're 2 different styles of wrestling to appease a certain group of fans who enjoy that kind of wrestling. I also believe that 10-20 years from now, a bunch of wrestlers from today's generation will be complaining about how the "new style" is stupid & terrible which goes back to what I referred to before about the evolution of pro wrestling

[@barsbay7598]

David Krappenshitz You hit the nail on the head.

[@SnipingIsFun]

David Krappenshitz Agreed

[@Br0nze]

I believe Al Snow had a "lecture" about this topic (I think this is it; kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5mtepWGl6mdiaM) and he essentially took your side, Brian: there is nothing wrong with a spot or a high-risk move, but it has to make sense in the formula of the match, and in the equation of the story. It has to serve a purpose, and that purpose cannot be to merely get a "pop" from the crowd. It's as you say -- the crowd is more exhausted before the match ends than the two workers are -- and that's an impossible pace to sustain. Not only that but these moves are special because they are dangerous and dangerous because they are special; seeing them done in EVERY match desensitizes us (read: fans) to their dangers, and we become accustomed to wrestlers trying to kill themselves for us, so all of a sudden when someone wrestles an "old fashioned manner," he or she isn't trying to impress us, and then why would we care? As much as wrestling is a fans' business, it's also the boys' business, and we need to step back and respect ALL the boys who go out and decide to dedicate their lives to entertaining us, dive or headlock.

[@charlescarter4608]

Decent comment. Not long enough tho.

[@MrTommygunz0482]

#headlock I like the days where finishers meant something and a lot of these matches turn into such spot fests that the guys in them start to devalue the spots Also I hate no selling unless it's to make a big guy look stronger

[@Jnwboss]

Not a bad way of looking at things. I personally don't mind false finishes in a world tittle match or If it is really necessary. I will say though there are moments when a finisher connects and I think to myself "they're going to kick out" when I shouldn't because when I see a finisher i should most of the time think okay that's it. I will say this though Jinder beat Randy Orton with one finisher so hopefully we start to see this thing continue for a little while

[@พงศกรฉ่ําพึ่ง]

MrTommygunz0482 Boring

[@MrTommygunz0482]

Jnw boss I agree that some false finishes can add to the story being told but the 5th or 6th one starts to kill your finisher But to each their own if that's your twist have fun with it but if your a guy who is gonna do this stuff make it clean and make it make sense

[@bbiscuit3000]

Jnw boss Yet on the same card Nakamura kicked out like a million times. That was a good match until that shit started. Ziggler looked like a pussy in that match.

[@Jnwboss]

MrTommygunz0482 I agree that after a certain point it is a little ridiculous especially if it's after like the 4th or 5th finisher. So I understand where you're coming from

[@ronmastrio2798]

Gotta be team headlock the suicide dive seems to be more used than the Irish whip in WWE today which severely diminishes the impact when every match uses one and wrestlers like Ambrose, Harper even Rollins do a really shitty looking slow variation of it. Most indy wrestlers just don't know how to pace out a good match and just do loads of moves for flash and no substance Ospreay is a perfect example of this to escape from a wristlock he grabs the rope and does a front flip even though he could just grab the rope and call break or step through the rope like Tajiri. My main problem with indy wrestling is a lot of the guys don't understand that sometimes you can do more with a lot less.

[@birdfanboi]

the so called "smart marks" opinions should not have more credibility over a wrestler. good analyst Brian

[@jaycechua9851]

Honestly, I just want matches to mean something so that they don't have to do (a lot of) flashy moves just to get the match over. I am a proponent of ring psychology, where stories and selling carry a lot of weight in matches to a point where even a punch or a kick means something.

[@Halffstrong1996]

What I thought was interesting was this: my girlfriend isn't in to wrestling, but the Osprey - Ricochet match was actually entertaining in her opinion. She even called "beautiful to look at". So That to me shows that this "indi-Style" could be more easy to get into for "outsiders". Personally I'm a bit torn. I don't like it when selling becomes an anomaly in a match. But I also don't enjoy matches that are so slow my eyes close. A mix is needed.

[@broman9484]

im more of a suplex type of guy

[@ibbystrogylos8196]

bro man Get out.

[@highdefinitionapollo2189]

The kids these days with their big spots and exciting matches, back in my day wrestling used to be just two guys hugging each other for 60 minutes until half the audience fell asleep, now that was wrestling.

[@BabysitterSky]

George Zhang they're not exciting though...

[@AMG-ko3gt]

George Zhang Two big sweaty guys holding each other for 60 minutes? Tsk tsk tsk. I call that mediocrity. I'm a fan of high-flying gymnastics and spotfests but I also like to see a mixture of technical wrestling, pure wrestling, athletic high-flying moves, spots, back and forth brawling, and maybe some storytelling. I also like to see a technical wrestling match where collegiate wrestling and submission wrestling are applied and many kinds of suplexes, backbreakers, neckbreaker, etc. are thrown. I want to see a match where wrestlers go all out on each other and not some snoozefest between two roided men. That's my taste. And drawing power is not included.

[@AMG-ko3gt]

George Zhang Oh wait, I forgot one more thing, I also like to see a match full of kicks, Muay Thai or kickboxing combos, and submissions. Basically something like Strong style. Something that closely resembles an MMA fight. I'm also open to enjoying a match where both guys go savagely stiff on each other like for example, Shibata vs Ishii.

[@RantingRamsay]

.... I think you missed the part where George Zhang was being sarcastic/mocking those "old people" who don't like the new indie style.

[@mickaelm.4981]

i'd take a flair-steamboat ironman match over every match you can think of in the last 5 years.

[@daniellevitz5259]

I'm on team story. what indy wrestling is missing for me is the in ring story telling. Al Snow said it best. what you are selling if you are a wrestler is the finish. I know what it's like to get hit. I know what a surge of adrenaline feels like. don't misrepresent something I would know. a superplex to the big show breaks the ring? I've never lifted a 7 foot guy, so you can tell me anything about that. you got a surge of adrenaline, hit a superkick, then passed out? BS, weve all been suprised awake. it isn't a 2 second moment. sell me enough reality, that I want to believe your BS. you want to do a million flips? become a gymnast. you want to be a wrestler? tell me a wrestling story.

[@mphstteach]

I was an avid wrestling fan until my late teens and have just recently in the last year began watching again. I grow VERY annoyed with 5 false finishes per match, finishing moves mean nothing anymore. Look at Dolph against Nakamura, he hit him WITH THREE DAMN FINISHERS and nothing... It cuts off Dolph's balls for the sake of crowd pop and putting Nakamura over. This style is growing weary on me as a guy in my 30s who knows what he likes, maybe newer fans just love all the false finishes and meaningless finishers, but not this guy

[@Jorge.Painkiller]

That's why Powerhouses can still keep up in their 50s and even have solid combats

[@maninblack5783]

Also, I knew that I could count on this channel to come to a rational middle ground. When these debates pop up, you always have a well thought out alternative.

[@arashi86]

"I don't think you should put down other styles to put over stuff that you like, that never ends well." *very* well said, Brian - and that thinking applies in a lot of areas. more people ought to take that under consideration.

[@JigsawLV]

Will Ospreay never finished grade 11 intensive reading because he couldn't tell a story

[@cyburgin]

Correct. There's no such thing as grade 11 in England

[@munstrumridcully]

Cyburgin ah, way to ruin the joke with facts😋

[@cyburgin]

munstrumridcully Anytime xD

[@JigsawLV]

+Cyburgin Hell, I am not from the US either. I just have heard a similar joke before :D Btw, what would be an equivalent in British education system? Have to smooth out my jokes you know

[@cyburgin]

JigsawLV We call it Year 11 English Literature

[@Mushtaco]

That's actually why I really like the new Jinder Mahal. Once he hits his finisher (I think now named the khallas?) the match is over. I was so hyped when he hit it on Orton cause I knew it was over.

[@greedyd5524]

Mushtaco until the script calls for a kick out

[@Mushtaco]

Greedy D yeah but that the point. The chosen kick out is awesome when it's actually a surprise.

[@tmaguire2075]

I'm in between. I used to work for a small promotion in NJ and most of the stuff we learned was mostly old school moves but also new innovative moves yet most of the matches that were put on had an old school style like classic bad guy tactics, elevated pins, submission finishes from a figure 4 or Boston crab, etc. There were a few times, we put on a dive style match, and it was spectacular. So, that's where I would stand. I wish there were more promotions like the one I worked for that still had that old school style but also willing to put on a high flying match whenever possible.

[@goblinharry124]

AJ Styles has had 18 years in the ring doing dives

[@Rickbane01]

The best match in WWE match this weekend was the UK title bout. That was telling a story in the ring with two young and hungry wrestlers that contain the British technical style which involved stylistic holds with high flying spots.

[@BradleyBlake84]

Bryan, I've always wondered...why is there a post-it-note on the lunch box behind you?

[@Strathaczar]

Hey Brian, the way I look at it is the same as you. This is how I equate it: The one thing you forgot to mention about the violence/blood aspect of the late 90s/early 00s is the Chair Shot. We were so conditioned with the unprotected Chair Shot to the head that it became cliche, and what used to be sickening and brutal and would put someone down for the count wouldn't by the mid 00's and would take multiple to actually pin someone. And then the wheels fell off... Benoit's murder suicide, concussions, and head trauma would be in sports lexicon from that point forward. And not just the WWE is feeling the backlash, but the NFL as well. Both have class action lawsuits being brought before them, and it's HARD to know that some of my favorite wrestlers/NFL players are dying so young or feeling dangerous affects due to something that was completely preventable. This really hit home with me when my favorite NFL player ever, Junior Seau, took his own life which was very likely due to CTE much like several other NFL players before him did. Just go watch any interviews with Jim McMahon and see how he's struggling now, or go and watch that VERY surreal and painful interview with Mike Webster where he couldn't remember anything and was struggling just to get the words out. Again, I'm with you, Brian, when I'm team DivingHeadlock. I get the point of flash, and having fun, and I LOVE seeing it. Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, and the like are some of my favorite wrestlers on planet earth right now. But I also want to see them succeed for a LONG time and not have to feel like Mick Foley for the rest of their lives and endure a life of very brutal pain.

[@bigdawgproductions9912]

I'm currently training to become a wrestler and I have updated my move set to use a springboard headlock where I bounce off the ropes and come down and catch them with a headlock

[@countjobula]

Very well thought out and pretty much my thoughts exactly. Remember Mike Awesome? he was amazing at doing moves but he'd dive over the top rope in the first 30 seconds of the match. Taker would do it twice a year and it would be something special.

[@DrBachur]

The "diving headlock" sounds like the most dangerous move in wrestling history. Can't wait 'till Teddy Hart tries it.

[@DavidHernandez-qb1kk]

Brian, just asking will there ever be way to combine both old school and the new high flying generation in wrestling like a wrestler combining both styles? Will there ever be a compromise?

[@alpeshr82]

WWE are likely to blame social media such as youtube, they have a popular channel for which they must create 3-4min content videos. those videos are more likely be popular and viral if they have some high flying spots. i do agree with you on the whole law of diminishing returns.

[@charlescarter4608]

Do you have wifi and free breakfast at your hotel?

[@planescaped]

I just hate overly choreographed spots to the point of them being contrived.

[@misterprickly]

Agreed! Those matches scream "We rehearsed this!"

[@planescaped]

It's the issue I have with Will Osprey. He frustrates me to no end because he can do some amazing things... just stop doing all of them every single match! The Young Bucks also have this problem, but they pull it off slightly better due to their whole rockers vibe. I hope they someday learn that less can be more.

[@sochioranmyaku]

planescaped that's why imo those guys are bums. they like to pretend that they're too good for wwe when in all honesty they don't understand how to tell stories in the ring.

[@bf191306]

the rockers did not do 200 superkicks a match second the young F***s diminish every move from Kalisto's seleto del sole to undertakers tombstone it's that backyard psychology mixed with a bit of selling and an actual ring lets be marks and do everyone's shit fallowed by 1 2 sweet

[@planescaped]

I love the Young Bucks because they're amazing... but the same time, I can't stand them because they're terrible... It's all so easily fixed too. :( But they wear the hate like a badge of honor. Such a shame.

[@PrinzPassionsfrucht]

And now I want to see a Diving Headlock, do you think you can manage to do this Brian?

[@EightMasterRobots]

i would much rather see a technical grounded masterpiece than dives any day of the week

[@ElectricNikkiGames]

i'm part of team "tell me a good story in the ring"

[@BrokenSaintRW]

I have a banged up knee, a sore back, and 50 lbs. overweight. I didn't realize I was in better shape than Will Ospreay

[@rasslinaction8326]

I think Miz made the best point at that great talking smack promo, where Daniel Bryan was telling Miz that he wrestles like a coward, and Miz told him and i quote: "The reason i wrestle the way i wrestle,is because i can do it day in and day out all the time for 10+ years... i dont get injured for six months to a year"

[@Anxomaxo]

I love Wrestling. I love seeing two guys fight in the mat trying to wear down their opponent while countering the rival's offense so they can make them submit. I love watching guys launching themselves from crazy positions and doing even crazier flips, all so they can put a great show. I love watching unnstoppable beasts-like men tearing down their opponents with incredible powerhouse moves that look awesome. I love a hardcore fight, in which the guys hit each other with many objects all so they can finish off one another. I love seeing blood feuds in which two man hate each other to the point you can even believe they will kill themselves. I love title matches, be it between a dirty heel and a beloved babyface or simply between two great athletes. I love wrestling. I love every part of it. I can understand if people like more one of the aspects of wrestling than another, but in the end it doesn't matter. Wrestling has something for everyone. So just enjoy it. Be it for a headlock or a dive, enjoy it for what it is and let the others enjoy it too. Because although i love wrestling, i love more to watch it with friends that share this passion with me. Edit: im such a mark, it makes me laugh xD

[@narutocankillgoku3012]

Lol people care so much about in ring wrestling. Austin and Rock I'm sure focused on in ring talent. Instead of thier character or telling a story.

[@RohanM1912]

Austin completely focused on his character, he wasn't the best wrestler.

[@msm3150]

Neo Darklighter He was actually a pretty good technical wrestler but had to switch to brawling after breaking his neck

[@narutocankillgoku3012]

Neo Darklighter its was sacarsm.

[@matthewford8977]

Neo Darklighter Either was the rock sadly It's a shame to since his grandfather and father were both petty good wrestlers in their own right

[@teenchampionshipwrestlinga4034]

1:43 There's one match that's an exception, Takahashi vs Dragon Lee those guys can make anything go over with a crowd

[@bigshambowski]

I'm more impressed by actual feats of athleticism than how many ways you can apply a headlock. Not saying that one is better than the other. They both make up the fabric of wrestling.

[@davesmith4839]

I’d love to see finishers start actually finishing people off in PPV matches, unless it’s a big four show and it has a good story behind it so when they finally kick out of the finisher in a match at summerslam or something like that. It makes it a bigger PPV, and makes it an actual surprise

[@patrickracer43]

2:14 I don't see Samoa Joe or Kevin Owens do a ton of suicide dives, and I admittedly haven't seen much of Finn Balor's matches to notice him do suicide dives, but Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, and Sami Zayn do the suicide dive so much that its apart of their matches as much as 50 German suplexes are apart of Brock Lesnar's matches

[@worlds.worst.entertainment2513]

Rodgers from American dad is screaming "dive on in!!!" Right now lmao

[@SameNameDifferentGame]

This is a good take. It's also nuanced and well-thought out, so it probably won't get much traction, sadly.

[@yriafehtivan]

There's room for both in a good match.

[@venomousnate7911]

I’m both Headlock and Dive.

[@aRo93]

#TeamStory - I LOVE highflying, but you don't have to do high risk spots if you're, for example, BROKEN. (of course I'm talking about Matt, not Jeff)

[@yolomasta6940]

Last year's Osprey Vs Ricochet match is one of my favorite matches ever but I agree with the fact that not everyone should do dives and top rope moves.

[@rogerbabin8175]

Team variety. The show that's put on for the night shouldn't have too much of one style or too much of one spot. Simple as that. I saw a recent video of JR talking about this in a way saying that a wrestler wanted to do a chair spot and JR's first question was "Does the main event have one?". This simple question showcases a core understanding and appreciation for storytelling over the course of the show.

[@ryanager8029]

Diving Headlock? That sounds like a tornado DDT from the top rope.

[@gsimonbrooks]

It is kind of what The Miz said the reason that he can still wrestle on a regular basis is that he hasn't taking the crazy bumps and death defying moves that break down the body fast. I think there is a place for both the high flying and crazy stunts but as you said when it is a constant one move after another to out do it they get watered down and have little to no impact and the payoff is weaker.

[@BebopCowboy72]

I'm late to the discussion, but I think a big part of it is rebranding them as something other than "rest holds," which is how most smart fans see headlocks and the like. Incorporate the need for that kind of hold into the storytelling (if your finisher targets the head then by all means crank on that head/neck area, but if you submit the leg why bother?). All too often dives and high spots are for the sake of a pop instead of being part of one person's attempt to weaken and defeat an opponent, especially when the move does as much damage to the person giving it as to the one receiving it.

[@yallevereatenbeans2723]

It’s not about choosing either headlock or dive it’s about building to the dive with the headlock, everything has its place

[@DoneRandomLee]

Team dive into a headlock (isn't that sort of a diving bulldog?). I love high flying moves and think it can be used to tell the story well. Including "overdoing it" for example i remember seeing jay lethal do three suicide dives back to back. It worked cause it was a title match where he was the heel champion. He was showing how much better he was and doing a all out assault on his opponent. It worked imo. Basically i agree they shouldn't be transition moves, should be apart of the story but doing a lot of dives can be apart of the story telling. Imagine a underdog like daniel bryan does all he can, finally throws the opponent out of the ring and immediately does a suicide dive and then throws them back into the ring. Some may think that's just a transition move but it's to show he's willing to put everything on the line and he needs that win so he'll do a move and quickly try to pin them rather than letting the move set in cause he needs to win the match as fast as possible. It's hard to explain how to do it right. So many factors go into it. But it can easily go right and work but can also be wrong. Depends on how well they express the story

[@MasterFhyl]

Thankyou for explaining this.. I've been seeing the meme everywhere and had no idea what they were talking about.

[@Kaltagstar96]

You know. I was firmly Team Dive for most of this. But I'll be damned if Brian didn't managed to make me reconsider, the point that got me was when he said 'Think of what all those dives'll do to the body?' and it just clicked of 'Shit. Never thought of that'. Great video Brian. I'm Team Diving Headlock as of now.

[@lb2.0.45]

How about both?

[@spenceII]

Action films often have explosions. If you use explosions to enhance a story, you end up with something like Saving Private Ryan; if you use explosions AS the story you end up with a Michael Bay film.

[@sheriffkimbo]

By far the best argument I've seen on this Brian, excellent analysis. I presume the 38 people who gave it a thumbs down, feel very passionately one way or the other, which I find to be odd. Or maybe they can't work their mouse/phone/tablet properly. Or maybe they're just arseholes. (Sorry, assholes, to my friends stateside) Sure, some of the older wrestling can be a little hard to watch these days, and maybe if a wrestler who wasn't as regularly dull as Randy Orton had publicised the point, it wouldn't have rubbed so many people the wrong way. On the flip side, denying some wrestling isn't just 'flippy shit' for the sake of it is being smarky at best. With that being said, no matter how good wrestlers are in the ring, if there is no psychology and a lack of storytelling, the extra moves need to come in to get a reaction. Why that stuff is so badly lacking these days is debatable, although as Brian says, WWE is standard bearer and frankly, their storytelling is, all too often, insultingly bad. Do you know the great irony of that? From an athletic standpoint, they have the best roster they have ever had. But the story telling, the 50/50 booking and a few other problems, mean they are wasting some of the best opportunities the company will ever have. But hey, they don't care, money is okay and competition is lacking, so who needs a compelling product? That's not to say it's all bad, it's definitely not. Some of the people involved are too talented to not be entertaining. But sometimes it's like WWE is entertaining in spite of itself. Back to the debate, and the bottom line is that the current style is unsustainable. I understand why it is the way it is, but considering the wear and tear of older wrestlers, what the hell are this generation going to be like? A happy balance between ever improving athleticism mixed with good, compelling writing and psychology, and wrestling may just be able to get an unlikely new boom period.

[@DammitSinged]

#TeamDickKick

[@JDWanko]

Best thing about Okada v. Omega? High spots were there, but not the center piece. Oh, one thing that should be noted-the same guys saying guys are too flashy and are pandering to the fans too much with the high flying today are the same guys who used to cut themselves to liven up a crowd. Pot to kettle blackout.

[@MaronkingstonOngaude]

I 100% agree seeing all of ospreays injuries like that at only 24 is definitely scary

[@VenseyNess]

Personally, I think the one thing that team Headlock has going for it is its understanding that doing all of those big spots means shortened careers. I feel like those big spots and high flying moves can be used as often as you want as long as the match still has a story. Using lots of speed and flashy moves doesn't mean that you can't tell a story. Just look at Omega VS Okada from WK11. Sure, in terms of flashy moves it's no Ospreay VS Ricochet, but it's no Sammartino VS Koloff either. After all, that's just progress. It's not like we can turn back the clock and make people forget all of the insane stuff people have seen over the years, they'll always want more. These days it's impossible to get a huge pop WITHOUT doing that. When's the last time you saw a DDT get a cheer? Or just a reaction for that matter. But what do I know, I'm just a nobody with a laptop and an internet connection. ...Dive

[@wwfwrestlemania2000]

the interesting characters and storylines are what make wrestling great

[@daoust26]

Great video Zane I totally agree with your response to it all

[@cyclone927]

Tyler Bate vs Pete Dunn had the perfect combo of big spots and technical shit.

[@doesntmatter8330]

My favorite style of wrestling is the stiff European style but i love high flyers like Ricochet. Every style has its place but selling is important and when 2 guys refuse to sell anything the match sucks. Two guys landing everything and getting up gets as boring as Hogan jumping up from powerbombs

[@hyperionthundermain]

I would like it if the match style started to shift towards more like the Tyler Bate Pete Dunne match we saw at takeover. A lot of chain wrestling a lot of counters a lot of inventiveness, but not necessarily a lot of high spots. That match had like, maybe for high spots? And it was freaking amazing because they told a good story.

[@buckyhate7695]

Excellent points, Brian. It's all about balance. If we want to keep watching Pro Wrestling in the future, these guys can't keep wrestling a constant high spot style.

[@mikebell7446]

I'll start the slow clap for you Brian. Smartest response I have heard on this overblown subject... KUDOS!!! As wrestling fans can we not just all agree that we are... ... Team WRESTLING

[@Alex_DC413]

I guess it's accurate to say I'm team diving headlock. I agree with your points about liking high-flying moves but agree it's getting a little diluted. Yeah, a lot of the stuff at the CW Classic was excellent, and I like a lot of matches like that. But at the same time, guys like Bobby Roode and the Miz have shown how good a match can be while working safe styles.

[@scotcarr3390]

A better term, I think, is Team Finisher. High-spots are today's submission moves. Like you said, busted out at the right time, they're thrilling. Even in the "jobber-on-the-weekly-show" days of the '80s, a finisher at the properly-paced end of a match never failed to get a huge pop. Even for the now "boring" sleeper hold. But, when they should've​ mattered, they got over-used. Same thing w/high-risk "spot-monkey" moves now. Guys like Mick Foley & Terry Funk knew how to pace risk v. reward. And they STILL ended their careers busted up. One has to wonder if, had Foley dropped one or two less apron-elbows, he could be doing the occasional match while playing w/his kids unimpaired. Overload on anything, on life & wrestling, hurts everybody.

[@theefficiale3900]

These Indy Guys Couldn't Lace Bret Harts Boots!

[@Torthrodhel]

They could... but only with a triple flip double corkscrew avalanche imploding inverted boot lace-up.

[@trueSconox]

as i saw the first suicide dive and did go haywire. now a days it is a every match move like the ddt or the canadian destroyer.

[@chris19wp83]

This reminds me of something Jim Cornette said about Vince's favorite saying "Chocolate-Vanilla". I prefer Chocolate, but if you like your Vanilla then its OK. You can get you're Vanilla as long as I can get my Chocolate then I'm fine. I apply that to either Headlock or Dive.

[@thefakedeal]

So.... keep the fans bored untill execpt few last moments?

[@CobaltTheCrusader]

While I was really into this new acrobatic style at first I'm not gonna lie and say that I didn't get tired of it after a while. Looking back at all the wrestling angles I grew up as a kid. I realized that although the ability to work is important, I prefer the more theatrical elements of wrestling. IE Gimmicks and Storytelling. I mean we always go "Wrestling has more in common with Game of Thrones than UFC" but then gush over ridiculous counter and block strings/Tumbling routines? I'm not saying that they don't have their place but I do think that it's time wrestlers, especially indie darlings, chill out on the insane bumps lest they end up killing themselves before 30.

[@LOGANLOVESTING]

i love strong style but also the classic lucha libre, i think the new generations could learn a lot from the elderly luchadores, dive/technique

[@PhatLayCes7825]

I grew up watching ECW /WCW/WWF. Guys like Ricky Steamboat, Superfly, Brian Pillman, Ultimo Dragon, RVD, Rey Mysterio Jr. and the Hardys were always my favorite. Its awesome to see these current guys do 450's and dives etc. but just like watching the NBA or NFL movesets will evolve and athletes will take more risks to appease their fans. If Jeff Hardy can still do Whisper in the wind til he's 50, then that might be a serious snafu. My heroes are old now, or at least a foot into retirement. I hope guys can get up each morning without immediately depending on painkillers lol.

[@CrazyChiv]

In my humble observation, it seems that wrestling companies are at their hottest when they have a good variety of styles throughout the cards. So a little bit of high-flying, some hardcore/brawling, a monster or two, some talkers/showmen, some technical wrestling, some athletic/powerhouse style etc... When any roster relies too heavily on any one style (in this case high spots, in the past hardcore, in the past companies trying to build around an exclusively 'shooter' style and so on) ends up suffering in the long run when fans get fatigued and wrestlers efforts have to be escalated. So yes, I would agree that a change needs to happen. Perhaps they could chuck a big monster heel in the mix or maybe a character/stable of technical guys to literally 'ground' the high-flyers. Make it part of the story, y'know.

[@ericanate3155]

U also see the most devastating move in all of wrestling on RAW every week 5 times.... The roll up!!!

[@mrchaotiq]

Either style is fine, the real problem nowadays is that there are no characters or when there is they're very bland. The classic feud with a good story line is almost non-existent nowadays, therefore fans are less invested in the entire product. Rock vs Austin for instance was a classic feud, neither were particularly good wrestlers but the story they told in the ring coupled with their respective characters made for must watch television.

[@mittinedkitten]

Honestly I wish they would go back to a Macho man style. Where they slowly built up to a crescendo the big spots made sense and meant a ton more.While I love high spots it's gotten to the point where I'm not invested enough after the 20th 360 splash to care. Not to mention you are right I want to see my favorites wrestle for as long as they can

[@brianhall4182]

As far as this debate goes I keep thinking about one thing: what about Lucha Libre? There's plenty of high flying mixed with plenty of technicality and it's been around for every bit as long as "American" wrestling.