Divide and Conquer Faction Power Rankings (Tiermaker Tierlist)

[@hoofhearted4450]

My biggest thing with clans of enedwaith is their economy is insane. If you build up the food production builds you'll get 2 retinues that both give +3 farming on top of any additional buffs from your traits. Not to mention if you decide to go to war with either breeland or dunlendings you realize they both have the same culture as you middlemen. You don't have to worry about building it up at all. The javelins are quite powerful when used as player and reuniting the clans gives you access to all the enedwaith elite tier at almost all of your settlements. All 3 of the new troops are amazing. Gives you a strong enough cavalry unit, solid archers when considering your opponents, and of course spearmen with javelins.

[@Mishu777]

Man the Dunedain start is driving me crazy i restarted almost a dozen time, im glad im not the only one who thinks its really unbalanced.

[@wolflaf911]

I get its meant to be hard but it seems like a nightmare difficulty and unfun at that. Beat down after beat down.

[@Owlr4ider]

Goblins of Moria are also stronger than you give them credit for. The black pit units aren't bad at all for an evil faction, and they have the best wargs in the entire game(and most variety of warg units, cavalry is king remember?). In fact their elite warg cavalry is a top 10 cavalry unit in the entire mod, mostly thanks to the wargs' bonus against horses so they do exceptionally well against other cavalry units, and being lancers means they're perfectly built for the classic cycle charging tactic. Still 1 of the weakest factions for sure, but they do have some actual strengths beyond just quantity(which is a quality of its own) and some surprisingly good units. In terms of ranking still D or C tier as they're still 1 of the weaker factions, just saying it's not nearly as bad as you, and most people to be fair, think of the faction. Speaking of which, Dorwinion is not a D tier faction! Their unit roster is incredibly solid and I don't agree with your issue of elf side having good units but bad economy and human side good economy but bad units. Human side gives them elite cavalry, which is actually pretty good and helps close the gap between the human and elf choices. As for the economy, the region of Dorwinion itself is quite rich, and if you did a good job expanding early on you shouldn't really have money issues even if you did go the elf route. Would have been a solid B tier roster Imho if you had access to their full roster. However due to the choice maybe relegated to C tier as you can't have their elven archers and pikemen as well as their human elite cavalry together, something most factions can do. Still there's a lot of potential for the faction if you're decently skilled, as in you can at least hold off Rhun early on while expanding elsewhere, if not outright killing them(you need to be a good player for that). Rhun's roster is powerful, yes, but for an evil faction. It's not nearly as strong as most of the good factions nor is it on the same level as Isengard/Gundabad. Their starting position, needing to reunite the tribes and all that, means it actually takes them quite a while to get going. When you do they can get pretty powerful as their starting area around the Rhunish lake is quite rich and Dorwinion isn't too hard to kill. However after Dorwinion by the time you make it to your other enemies they would have already had plenty of time to build up and expand so you'll be facing quite powerful armies from the likes of Erebor and Dale. B tier seems much more appropriate than A. Khand seems appropriate at B being so cavalry focused, and in the desert where siege battles are few and far between, unlike say Rohan, and of course they have those rich gold mine provinces on the eastern edge of the map. Yes the quest is quite difficult, but it is manageable if you're decently skilled and once you past that it's off to the races. Your biggest hurdle Imho is that if you stayed evil you simply have nowhere to expand to beyond your initial rebel expansion and wherever you do end up conquering(Dol Amroth, Gondor, Dorwinion, High Elves, etc) you'll have massive corruption penalties and of course those factions would have had a long time to build up and expand, and you'll run into the same issue as Rohan of being forced to fight a lot of sieges with a cavalry centric army. Going the blue wizard route is ironically the easier path Imho as it's much easier to expand into Harad, Rhun and Mordor's backside and your corruption penalties wouldn't be as bad. Of course going with the blue wizards means Mordor could abandon Gondor and send their endless hordes at you instead, but as long as you fight them on the field your cavalry heavy army should easily wipe the floor with them. Completely agree with you on Harad, a very difficult start and while their unit roster is decently powerful, it's not nearly as powerful as to justify their insanely hard start. I mean Mumakils are OP as hell, but it's a massive struggle to get them and when you do you can only recruit them in like 2 or 3 regions so you'll never be able to get a lot of them, and they're still vulnerable to missile fire and to a lesser extent pikemen, though they easily handle halberds, spearmen and whatever other melee infantry that has anti cavalry bonuses, so while OP they're still far from unkillable and are insanely hard to replenish/replace. Would actually drop them to D because of this. High Elves weaker than Isengard and Ar Ardunaim? What? They have the strongest(but also most expensive) roster in the entire game. I agree that for new and/or auto resolve happy players they're not nearly as easy, if you actually play your battles manually and use proper tactics, than you will get an insane mileage out of their roster. The strongest faction hands down at the hands of a skilled player, but not nearly as easy as say Angmar. Already talked about my stance on Rohan but that's neither here nor there, so definitely High Elves and Angmar as top 2 factions, 1 for best roster but requires some skill to make the most out of, the other for easiest start(and well rounded roster). Ered Luin's start is also insanely easy but the unit roster isn't nearly as well rounded and starting off in a corner, while safe, also means it's harder to get to your actual enemies(and when you do they've already built up a significant amount). Lothlorien and Woodland Realms both A tier Imho. Their unit rosters, while not as good as the High Elves, are still incredibly powerful, and archery is very easy to get a lot of mileage out of, and as the player it's really not that hard(just tiresome) to kick Dol Guldur out of Mirkwood and than you choose between merging the 2 realms(getting a bunch of provinces for free) or an incredibly powerful unique building, an insanely powerful tier 3 unit(some of the best in the entire game, especially the Woodland Realms' one) and of course the ents(which IIRC you can technically also get by merging, but only in Isengard itself after conquering it). Also their generals are insanely powerful in the early game, amazing archers with good melee stats once you run out of arrows make for a killer combination against the hordes of trash the evil factions will send your way. Also I don't see Gundabad as a major issue for the Woodland Realm. Their archer heavy style is perfect to counter those big lumbering orcs as well as their wargs, trolls and whatnot. They also have those insane 70 range armor piercing longbows, basically their javelin replacements, to deal with problematic high armored infantry units(and maybe the armored trolls too) that don't fall easily to regular archer fire. Also due to the distance between you and the other factions in the way, Gundabad will never send the bulk of its armies against you, unless everyone else(Anduin Vale and Erebor at the very least) already died, at which point it's pretty late in the game and your position should already be incredibly powerful.

[@Morphologicallyy]

I think thats one of the longest comments, ive ever seen on yt

[@naraiceylob]

Nice essay. I've been trying to figure out how the High Elves aren't the top civilisation. I guess that some players could easily get frustrated with the slow recruitment rate. Even the Dwarves taking the ring and declaring war on you barely slows you down. The Dwarves are rarely powerful enough to really threaten you.

[@angamaitesangahyando685]

I love strategy game communities, always full of brilliant and literate people. - Adûnâi

[@markjoslin4684]

The Anduin Vale was reworked for v5, as with Dunland and Enedwaith. AV has a tough early game, but you have a cavalry archer general in Framsburg, and the skinchanger bodyguards are extremely good against the Goblins. AV’s late game units are fairly underpowered though

[@wolflaf911]

Hence why I think they didn’t do enough

[@Mon_Idle]

Perfect timing bro I was just watching the old one because I just got into the mod and I see this video right under it

[@wolflaf911]

Thank you, it was definitely a more objective take on the faction rankings and I’m glad to see you enjoyed it

[@Omuraisu0]

I would personally contest Dorwinion's placement but this is probably my bias for Dorwinion speaking lol. Big bonus is that none of the elves are locked to areas of recruitment, so you have full access to your elven roster everywhere you go. Unfortunately the hybrid elf-men Dorwinion Infantry and Dorwinion Armsmen units are locked to specific Dorwinion homeland regions but I think it warrants that Dorwinion can be placed on the high B, or low A tier. Even if you go with men in the military, you have plenty of armor piercing to make up for your lack in raw stats, never mind Dorwinion's economy letting you field hordes of the mid-tier Regent units.

[@wolflaf911]

Ye they’re not horrid, playable it’s just not as easy as some of the others

[@Omuraisu0]

@@wolflaf911 that's completely fair honestly, I wrote my comment about my feelings towards the roster as a whole but I didn't really take into account that you would be fighting Rhun with the Thorn units as your mainline for much of it, and trying to squeeze in the elves when your budget is tight can get challenging

[@FuFightersStudio]

@@Omuraisu0 to be fair considering the amount of Crossbows in your army, if you can make them pull their weight they fuck Rhun hard with that armor piercing.

[@krevonalet-martson2008]

I'm just playing dorwinion ampaign in v5 right now, I allied rhun from the start, picked elves and destroyed dol guldur with avalyn by turn 50 with 15 regions and 100k in bank, now I can attack rhun and mordor whenever I want, dale is okay with being just a trading partner.

[@wolflaf911]

@@krevonalet-martson2008if you ally with rhun you’re easily the most powerful faction in the game

[@Paulsinke]

Dude I'm just glad someone else plays this game, I don't agree completely (goblins of moria are awesome, throw snagas at anything before you hit it with your main army) but also I didn't make my own whole ass video about it. Cheers!

[@wolflaf911]

I think they are a capable faction, Id just say overall compared to others they have a slightly more difficult path to victory because of their limited unit capability, but thank you for watching the whole video

[@paulmacrath8985]

Also as Anduin you may find more success at campaign start if you sacrifice a bit of your north/south borders and instead focus on capturing goblin town super early. This not only gives you a Huge city but also effectively eliminates your goblin threat. From there you can push north and take the fight to Gundabad. You effectively trade out your low value southern regions for the more valuable settlements in the north. One strategy I would suggest that I rarely see anyone implement is to trade your southern settlements to Lorien and/or Khaz for alliance and possible Tribute. Not only does this earn you a valuable ally but it creates a buffer between you and Dol Guldur in the early game. With your south secure you can use the power of your generals and what forces you can muster to easily take Goblin Town. Taking Goblin town asap and securing the south as I mentioned allows you to focus entirely on one enemy rather then 3. Which is honestly why the Anduin campaign is one of my favorites. It takes some out of the box thinking and requires use of all aspects of diplomacy, where most other factions you can kind of power your way through all situations.

[@wolflaf911]

I’ll try this out, it’s not something I’ve really experienced before but I’ll give it a go, thanks.

[@jeannedarc3440]

Angmar used to be the bane of my existence when i played ND and High elves, but when i found out that they are incapable of defending their core 3 settlements (Carn dum, Mount Gram, and Litash) im now convinced that they arent really a threat and are more of an annoyance. Mount Gram is also one of the easiest maps to defend, since its like the Ost Sul but with a better archer platform Honestly isengard is way scarier than Angmar

[@wolflaf911]

Angmar is almost impossible to defeat as anyone besides high elves and gundabad is the issue

[@Peeoto]

My first playthrough was with Dorwinion. But then I got wrecked. It became my next 10 playthroughs until I finally manage to crawl my way into Mordor and wreckhavock. Almost went crazy.

[@wolflaf911]

It’s definitely a weaker faction

[@TheRingoism]

Last major campaign I did on DAC was with the Vales of Anduin, first time playing as them and though It ended in failure mainly due to financial issues and support from other free peoples I had a ruddy good time, especially with Gléowine rampaging around Framsburg with Éothéod riders, but Angmar eventually became too much and Mirkwood had destroyed Woodland Realm, Erebor and Dale. Basically the Free Peoples lost everywhere.

[@wolflaf911]

It’s probably easier if you give it more of a chance than I did, glad to hear you had a good time.

[@TheRingoism]

@@wolflaf911 Came down to slogging matches and glorious battles nearly every turn where I truly had to think timings and positioning in order to reduce casualties as I had no money to retrain and I didn't have it in me to delay the inevitable, I still had, Goblin Town, Framsburg, Beorn's Halls, Zagh Kala and Maethelburg but was making no profit,. One day I would like to try again. always liked the looks of the Anduin troops and area. Though I'm pretty sure in V5 of DaC, Dol Guldur were spawning random armies from the woods as I had good line of sight via, towers and spies, and god damn I'm certain they were spawning which pissed me off.

[@DimitarFCBM]

Very nice video and I agree with most of the ranking, but I've a question. Are those good Byzantium anti cavalry units in the room with us?

[@wolflaf911]

THEYRE ALWAYS WATCHING

[@paolomesterom6899]

Nice video man!

[@amordramon22]

I'm currently playing as Ered Luin and I captured all the settlements and castles of northern Eriador/Arnor from Amgmar (I gifted Deadman's Dyke to the Dunedain as they demanded me to attack Angmar when I sought an alliance. Basically it's only their 3 starting settlements of Carn Dum, Litash and Mount Gram that's left, and I'm onpy using 3 full stacked armies. I have a fourth one near the scripted ruins (I can't remember the name) in case the Enedewaith Clans attack me since they kept refusing my offer for an alliance. I haven't had any problems with them and when they sneak attack my forts, castles and settlements, I only have 4 Ered Luin militia as my tosn watches with 3 or 4 crossbows (either the normal ones or the Broadbeam (?) ones) and they do thw job. Especially when the garrison tower summons 3 extea units. And they always attack the one entrance with only a battering ram and 1 siege tower, so it's easy to beat them. My only annoyances is when I send a general to watch tower the bordera I bump into a high-stacked rebel ambush and auto-resolve so they can retreat back to the closest settlement. Never played as any other faction except for Dunland (it was all fun and games until both Gondor amd Enedewaith attacked me whilst I was mustering my forces near Isenrun) and the Dunedain (I managed to cleanse the Barrow-Downs and repair the bridge at Tharbad whilst gifting Ost-in-Ethil and another similar settlement to the Noldor)

[@coca_kroli5654]

The earlies that I've had Gundabad come for me when Im the woodland realm is just around turn 10 it made it so hard, no money no troops and loosing it but that was a really fun campaign. I find it alot more fun to play Anduin Vale, Dunedain just factions that have a hard placement and few troops. I wish that this had a better AI would make my life a lot more fun

[@wolflaf911]

We can always pray for medieval 3 or medieval 2 remastered

[@angamaitesangahyando685]

Huge thanks for the video, it's the only of its kind on KZbin! But I have to admit that your brief style in the comments is somewhat peculiar, dare I say, choleric? On another note, I wish there were a tier list for Europa Barbarorum 2... - Adûnâi

[@wolflaf911]

From what I remember it's a good mod, Rome total war just isn't really my game and Rome 2 is just awful to play and feels as such.

[@angamaitesangahyando685]

@@wolflaf911 Actually EB2 is for Med2! I've never played despite so many years passing, I have to delve into it for once... It's so historically accurate, like a book, rather amusing. - Adûnâi

[@kristaskrastina2863]

I think an Anduin campaign is always a challenge: how to break off the siege. It may be fun - I've seen people who actually liked that tightened setup. I wouldn't say it's unplayable - but yes, it may be insanely hard. I played as Anduin in v4.6 and it was interesting. But I got very lucky there because Gundabad blundered and let me take its capital on turn 3 or so. Later Khamul The Moron got himself killed (he attacked Rhosgobel with a very small army) so I could go offensive on DG too. An Angmar campaign - yep, I agree with you. It seems too plain and boring. Killing Angmar as ND or Bree is much more fun. I don't think Angmar should be nerfed though - we just need more stuff going on (Gundabad's betrayal maybe?)

[@wolflaf911]

No campaign should be based off luck to succeed, Anduin needs a rework and I think angmar could be fixed with one fewer settlements in the auto expansion and just weaker units/ more strong opponents

[@kristaskrastina2863]

@@wolflaf911 I wouldn't say luck is absolutely necessary for Anduin - you just need a good plan with minimum flaws while executing it. Like good Khand (yes, a cavalry powerhouse - but an insane setup with all your neighbours turning against you), like DG (Eru knows how I cheesed every opponent as DG...). As for Angmar, I'd say it's boring rather than OP. I have very few problems fighting against its armies - and I'm horrendous at DaC. So the units shouldn't be nerfed. But more opponents - yes, exactly! I've just realised that all Angmar opponents (ND, Bree, High Elves) are passive and very rarely go offensive. That's why this faction is so easy despite having a lot of enemies.

[@wolflaf911]

It’s at least 50% lucky with anduin in my opinion which means that no matter how good you are it’s a coin flip on how you’ll do in the campaign

[@Jimmy_the_ork]

What faction is most like the aztecs?

[@wolflaf911]

Probably Anduin because they’re weak

[@Jimmy_the_ork]

I meant like in endless hordes of guys

[@wolflaf911]

Mordor due to them having an endless sea of orcs

[@mocho4110]

What’s your problem with Angmar? 😅

[@wolflaf911]

Too unfair to play as or against along with the whole roster being just impossibly broken. They should not within the lore be this powerful

[@hoofhearted4450]

@@wolflaf911 yep late game angmar seems to be insanely powerful. Somehow they are at war with Gundabad, Northern Dunedain, and Ered Luin in my game and still are having no issues expanding. They are almost like the mordor of the north.

[@Sarcasmses]

I'm an old Third Age player who just started DaC so this is neat to see. I'm shocked to see Rhun rated so highly. They were my favorite faction in original TA but they feel so much weaker in DaC, in fact their whole faction was like a bait and switch. In TA, Rhun is a cavalry based faction with a strong infantry core. They had a heavy cav bodyguard of Loke Innas Rim that were crucial in fighting the dwarfs and expanding early on. They could get quickly get Variag horse archer mercs for kiting Dale and Dwarfs. In DaC Rhun is now an infantry faction with an infantry bodyguard and no cavalry in sight. The Variags have been broken off into their own faction which sometimes turns against you. You have multiple strong factions nearby and the turn 2 script makes them all much stronger than you. I have no idea how to even begin with Rhun, their lack of horses cripples their expansion, but you said they are very easy. What am I missing? I played Variags instead and found them extremely easy. No enemies threaten you and Dol Amroth causes trouble for Harad and the pirate people. I haven't had the opportunity to turn on Sauron, but the Variag starting lands are fantastically wealthy once mines are up and I was able to take Minas Tirith on turn 32 by rushing Gondor with a small group of horse archers - something that Rhun was able to do in TA but not in DaC.

[@wolflaf911]

Bruh it’s not that deep, just take 4 settlements and you can match dorwinion. And the variags never go for mattaraham.

[@Sarcasmses]

@@wolflaf911 Well that wasn't helpful. I'll figure it out on my own.

[@wolflaf911]

just get the script done and start spamming good units and abuse your chariots

[@AntonioM95]

I painted the map with Mordor, it was super fun

[@wolflaf911]

Superpower of a faction

[@haptorripman1228]

Quick question, what difficulty do you play on? I normally love playing as the dwarves and you said you could conquer by 20 turns after reaching Khazad-Dum. But I run into recruitment problems and can’t amass an army big enough to go up and still hold the other settlements.

[@wolflaf911]

Very hard difficulty, and that’s just my experience in general. I also generally siege down the settlements to amass more wealth and deplete the enemy garrison

[@haptorripman1228]

@@wolflaf911 ohhhh ok, i roleplay like a loser and dont seige for long cause i personally think its kinda cheap way to do it lol. and i play very hard too.

[@wolflaf911]

It’s definitely a way to make the campaign more challenging, I just see no point in not sieging if I’m just playing for fun

[@Owlr4ider]

Yes, cavalry is king in medieval 2, except for sieges. Rohan's biggest issue is that their infantry is hot garbage so when you're forced to fight a siege battle, be it offensively or defensively, you're screwed. Field battles are obviously important, but unless you like sieging settlements for a whole bunch of turns wasting time and money(upkeep) than you will inevitably have to fight sieges, where that amazing cavalry of yours becomes a massive hindrance. Yes, you can cheese the AI in a variety of ways(which some would call exploits) so if that's your jam than yeah you can avoid siege battles altogether and Rohan is indeed insane, but if you don't do that than sieges(both on offense and defense) are the bane of Rohan's existence. Dol Amroth has arguably even better cavalry than Rohan(especially in the elite tier, maybe not in the lower tiers but still close) but also significantly better infantry so they're truly godlike. Khand also suffers from rather poor infantry to my recollection but their geography means they will be fighting a lot more field battles than siege due to being smack down in the middle of the desert and all that. Brie's early game roster is indeed surprisingly strong, carried by trash tier pikemen which are insane in this mod due to the removal of pikemen's secondary weapon, but other than that their roster, especially their elite units, are extremely underwhelming. So pretty powerful, and incredibly safe, early on but awfully mediocre later on though with some highlights(mercenary route mostly). Would not give it an S tier at all, in fact would give a C tier, maybe B due to the ease of their starting position, considering the way you ranked the other factions. Those other opinions you mentioned are probably abusing their early game pikemen speed run style, and that's indeed very powerful but that's not really what your rankings are about. Dunland's roster is actually quite powerful, especially for an evil faction, with top tier elite pikemen(top 10 in the entire mod) and some other highlights. Enedwaith has insane javelins, but that's all they have. Very powerful early on(but at that point you're uniting the clans) so by the time you're fighting real enemies they've already had plenty of time to build up into their higher quality units. Also regular archers(especially Elven and the good human ones like rangers) are the bane of their existence, of which there are many factions. Also due to their lack of armor the standard heavily armored sword and board unit also gives them a lot of issues late game unless you manage to throw all your javelins into their backside(not always possible depending on map layout and army compositions, also impossible in sieges) and your own line infantry isn't nearly good enough to hang in there. I mean it's still a very doable campaign, no campaign(even Anduin Vale which you again underestimated) is impossible, but in terms of faction power they're 1 of the weaker ones not strongest. Dol Guldur is better than you give them credit for. Firstly their faction leader is Khamul the Easterling who has a cavalry bodyguard(and 1 of the best ones at that) so he alone can solo quite a few early game armies. Secondly you have the poison arrow + Nazgul cheese(though not an exploit as morale is a legitimate mechanic) of stacking morale debuffs to quickly route your enemies(very few truly elite units that can withstand it in the early game) and you can slaughter whatever didn't run away. Thirdly I find archers to be the best unit type to spam hordes of trash of, that's to say that trash archers are way more useful than trash infantry(there is no trash cavalry to compare with) so even if you do fill your armies with hordes of trash(which you don't have to do at all) you will still get a decent mileage out of them. Fourthly their geography is actually pretty good, you have plenty of rebel provinces to expand into and your neighbors aren't going to pose much of a threat to you early on. In fact you're likely going to be the one taking the fight to them, and the AI actually does a very poor job with the Elven factions(worst than the others Imho due to their quality over quantity approach). Lastly they do actually have some pretty good elite units, and those spiders can be insanely powerful if microed well. Would give them a B tier at the very least if not A, especially if taking into account the starting position not just the unit roster.

[@wolflaf911]

As Rohan your main enemy is Isengard where cavalry can still be used to great effect along with isemouth being easy to take

[@Owlr4ider]

@@wolflaf911 Of course, but after rushing Isengard the campaign is still not over. You still have to take the required amount of provinces at the very least and that typically means getting bogged down in sieges. Especially when you're doing well as the more momentum you get the more defensive the AI becomes thus the less field battles you continue to get. Again unless you cheese the AI into sallying out of cities using a variety of methods which some would consider exploits.

[@TheSpearman-vt3nb]

putting ND in C is wild to me. you can tell this man loves his infantry. i couldnt listen to the stream only look at the rankings real fast. ill be back when i can

[@wolflaf911]

I'm a sucker for infantry and calvary, archers are just too vulnerable in a faction like that

[@jaqubi9624]

hello! I'm playing Lothlorien but can't make allies with Woodland elves to start the script. Any idea what can help me to make them agree allies?

[@wolflaf911]

It could be a luck based thing, I’m not entirely sure, have you tried offering them the standard (map info, gold, trade rights etc?) if they still don’t after forever it could just be that rng didn’t go your way and you might have to restart as annoying as it might sound, you could also give them gifts to improve relations.

[@Sanvone]

They like 20.000 gold before turn 40-50. Usually does the trick. It is kind of tight to squeeze all the expenses for the first 50 turns because of that and maxing both settlements and army size but is doable.

[@paulmacrath8985]

Anduin would be a excellent faction if not for the barrack limit choice.

[@wolflaf911]

100% agree with you

[@calumdique6205]

Dorwinion is better than you give credit for. I took over the elvish city first and chose elvish military for better quality units through if you want rapid retraining choose human military. I took over the cities on the river, starting with the rebel ones before rhun and dale jumped them, river trade here is very very powerful. I used the top cities to focus on trading while the original provinces i used for military and eventually took mistrand and the other two rhunic cities on the river to own the entire river. Taking down mistrand did take a lot of guerilla hit and runs using the avari shadows and horse archers/crossbowmen first but i eventually got them and then rhun essentially became the goblins, even though they moved all the way to the black gate, they only managed to field one sufficient size army which again i ambushed to death. Then took a long route through the dead marshes to attack dol guldur from the south with a full size army and a few reinforcements. Once dol guldur is taken their faction also becomes weak as all their surrounding cities start off very low level and a lot of their top tier units can ONLY be recruited at dol guldur. Did have some spider problems during the attack but i pulled my troops back and moved my archers to the wall. Dunno if spiders can climb on the wall but they evidently didnt want to.

[@jokurajunimi]

Hmm I dont agree with wood elves being on the same tier as lothlorien. Wood elves late game roster is so weak vs gundabad even with the superior archers while lothlorien scales quite okay to the later parts of the game. I also think the Ered luin should be s. Starting location is easy and you have extremely strong melee roster and reliable access to merchant cavalry. I think dorwinion is a little bit underrated also (maybe c). I find that you can quite reliably get some Rhovanion settlements and Mornedhel before Rhun starts the full scale assault. Its not an easy start but i feel like there are much harder ones. Elven roster is also quite good in the late game and you have decent matchup vs mordor, that being said i havent really played the human choice side a lot.

[@Sanvone]

While I always was saying that Angmar is easier that most community thought I'm kinda lost of why you placed them so far and then kept disregarding many things that make them great (hillmen+thralls, inability of HE and ND to match your pace of taking attrition, openess of Eregion as the whole encouraging hyper aggresivness). I'm curious for what your reasons are as Eregion is still depopulated. Rohan - much worse that it seems. Arguably the worst Northmen faction. Why would you need elite cavalry when everything it does is also done to the same extent by mid-tier cavalry that is more cost efficient? Rohan infantry and archers are bottom tier among their culture. High Elves - while they got too many toys as modding team favourite child, they have issues. Their archers are initially the worst among elves. They suffer the most from being overpriced, which makes spamming them every 3-4 turns from single province much less feasible unless you exploit AI via diplomacy for cash. Rushing Angmar first (By turn 50) is quite fun though. Gundabad - not sure why you consider them so highly when you put other orc factions lower. You have less numbers for the same playstyle of melee rushing cause your armor is bad Northern Dunedain - Angmar doesn't matter as long as you hold Ost-Sul. Or did AI changed and AI bypasses all regions to attack your undefended settlements in the back? Dol Goldur and Moria - This what I don't get. You seem to not realise how good swarming is but you put Angmar in S tier. DG gets nasty ranged units that pose some of the highest kill powers across game. Both factions got unneeded "I-win-buttons" with new spiders/wargs. Moria also has Mounted Crossbows and Halberds. Both units absolutely shred everything in game while your cheapest and most numerous meatshield tanks. You don't even need them as long as you remember to surround from inside enemy unit formation, because then only units immune to being hit-locked can fight back. I had many fights where I lose less goblins than enemy utilizing elven archers by the end. Anduin Vale - while I agree that they are not in good place, that is for reasons different that showcased. We were arguing on discord that new recruitment system absolutely shafted AV. Imagine building not cheap barracks to get access to your shitty militia after which you pick which 1/3 of your roster you will have in each province. Which translates in your provinces producing around half the units every 10 turns compared to other factions. Yes they improved their replenishment but it was like by -1 or -2 turns, which is clearly (looking at AI performance) not enough. AV was in weird place - there was no dream to be had about this faction. It was also the strongest faction that community was not playing in previous version as you had both swarming capability and quality that orcs could only dream off. The best combination of guilds across wildmen, access to slingers, the best melee infantry under 1000 florens (Eotheod Footmen - who only were worse that Uruk Infantries for top spots across game for that price range). I refuse to believe they are unplayable as your issues seem like poor campaign map approach. Fromsburg (or whatever the north-western region is called) is basically unconquerable for Snorcs if you move hobbit slingers and some extra bows with meatshields (6-8 units will suffice). You basically get 500-600 kills for hobbits every battle that is easy to arrange to have a straight line of fire on enemy while they fight your sacrifice units. In that time you can steamroll both Goblin town and later Dol Goldur with general stacking. The same way you can keep killing DG Nazguls with other stone throwers in Rhosgobel and small garrison. IRC you have like 3-4 Generals Guards with ability giving +50% combat efficiency (that stacks) + good archers and since version 5.0 also good starting cavalry skirmishers. Not even saying about initial Beorning 2handers that while much less spammable, still are top Charge Infantry under 1000 florens that will always pay for itself and works as frontline. The problem was small economic retinue pool and corruption fighting capability. They somewhat alleviated it from what I heard. Problem is nobody likes AV now, as they are not up to par with other "civilised factions" T2/T3 units and you are worse in early game (that always was problematic as you start with 2-3 enemies so your amazing early game is sacrificed to kill them; but if you can overcome that difficult curve and keep crazy pace it really is fun). The fix was also proposed not only by me but few other players on discord - either delete first barrack or add more units to it, so you can spam something useful by rebuilding it.

[@wolflaf911]

Anduin vale is dogshit it terms of power and also angmar is just op and needs to be tuned down with ai, also whatever you say about Rohan doesn’t matter, they have Calvary and Calvary is king in med 2

[@maxirvin2425]

Gundabad is higher than other orc factions because they're better than other orc factions. You don't play Gundabad by recruiting tons of fodder and throwing cheap units at your enemies. You recruit good units and actually do damage with your units like a normal faction. Just because they're the same race doesn't mean they play the same

[@Sanvone]

@@wolflaf911 Skill issue it seems regarding AV. If Rohan doesn't matter cause Cav then it still is worst Northmen faction cause each other faction can do the same with their Cav but has better infantry/archers.

[@Sanvone]

@@maxirvin2425 Are they? They are still seriously under armored across their roster, their units cost more while not being more cost efficient. Cheap units can do as much if not more damage against usually high quality "Good" troops. You just don't fight to their strenght and swarm. By swarm I don't mean "outflank" - I mean push through their formation forcefully to encircle every model in the unit, then start hitlocking them. Even elven stats don't matter much if they never get to use them due to being hitlocked. I might lose 1 unit for 1 enemy units in small skirmishes but Moria/DG/Mordor probably paid less than half and waited less than 25% of the turns it took to replenish AI as Elf/Dwarf. Which means that I'm ahead and will keep snowballing while being able to split forces quicker cause I have more unit cards and I still perform. The only dowside of slightly bigger losses are offset by orcish manpower fueled on low costs. Sometimes it seems like DaC Community believes that "Quantity" is the only approach. It is not. The better you are in Total Wars the less you need to win battles, thus the cheaper the units the more you can do at the same time.

[@wolflaf911]

No because rohans cav is just the best in the game no contest, only difficult part is that your starting enemy is extremely anti cav with solid all around moral but still are an easy defeat within about 10 turns

[@CompagnoPietro]

Dunland is way too high

[@wolflaf911]

Ye probably

[@mszalans4817]

Actually, AV is my favourite faction right now. I used to favor Ar Ardunaim, but it turned out that AV has the most entertaining campaign for me. I like their units, diversity of their enemies and overall motive. The only drawback is that they fight a lot in the Mirkwood and I don't like forest battlemaps, you don't see shit down there. If you all in Gundabad from turn 1 the campaign is not even that hard. I think I have similar hate feelings towards Dol Amroth as you have towards Angmar. Playing as DA Knights of the Silver Scum almost feels like cheating. They just steamroll everything, inluding spears and halberds. And AI DA almost always kicks Harad, AA and Khand out of Harondor. OP shit.

[@wolflaf911]

I just find AV to be a bit weak because my luck always is that Mirkwood focused me a ton. And as always with DA Calvary is king

[@Arhatu]

Rohan is surely not S tier. have you ever played a Rohan campaign before making the tier list?

[@wolflaf911]

Yes, I will remind you that in medieval 2, cavalry is king

[@Arhatu]

@@wolflaf911 They can easily be countered every unit in Medieval 2 is king if you know how to use tham.

[@wolflaf911]

Yes but cavalry is just better than every other unit especially when no unit your opponent possesses can catch yours

[@Arhatu]

@@wolflaf911 projectiles can.

[@wolflaf911]

@@Arhatu then cycle charge the missile units

[@blodram7009]

With all the tier list for this game this one i dissagre with the most XD