Divine Mysteries Class Archetype Breakdown! Pathfinder 2e

[@natanoj16]

I am just so darn happy that we are getting more Class Archetypes which truly changes the classes adding and removing features

[@Aa-su6kl]

My players got REALLY excited about the Battle Harbinger, I'm a little shocked that people don't like it.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Some people REALLY hate that they don’t get greater weapon specialization and strength as a key ability score, which amounts to a +2-3 point damage difference per hit which, fair, but also, I don’t think it’s a deal breaker. Also, a lot of people are comparing it to a fighter with fully kitted out spellcasting dedication which, again, fair, but that doesn’t get you two rank 9 spells.

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

I never liked that whole "but I could be a Fighter + a Caster dedication!" argument. Like, you're telling me that having 2 *low rank* Divine spell slots at lvl. 6 is better than having 4 high rank Divine/Deity spell slots? I see folks forgetting that this is a CLERIC archetype, not a standalone Divine caster. It gets all those other Cleric things such as Deity spells and Sanctification. Also, no other martial is trying to compete with the Fighter for its proficiency and neither is the BH Cleric. That's always been a bad faith metric.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

@@toodleselnoodos6738 I'm with you.

[@Monstercloud9]

@@toodleselnoodos6738 Ironic you claim others are "bad faith" when people aren't saying Fighters should compete with Clerics with a dedication - which aren't class archetypes, mind you.

[@azurethescaletipper210]

Are people assuming the use of Fighter + Cleric archetype as part of a free archetype game, or are they really willing to replace all those sweet Fighter feats with Cleric feats just to prove a point? Also, no one has more auras than a Battle Harbinger at this point. So…

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

I think its an amazing class. A lot of folks don't think its a big deal, but I think Intimidating Strike is probably the secret GOAT for the BH Cleric. Bless/Heroism on round 1. Then focus on landing Intimidating Strikes, since Intimidating Strike is like a single target Bane/Malediction on the target. And as a reminder to folks: Ostilli Host uses class DC or spell DC, depending on which is better. 1A MAP-less Reflex damage is pretty nice. Certain specific familiars too. Swarmkeeper is also class DC-based. BH Cleric looks great at FA tables!

[@dragon11742]

0:58 Battle Harbinger 5:35 Final thoughts 7:02 Palatine Detective 11:33

[@gamesandstuff127]

Keep in mind, Innate spells instead of regular spells for the Investigator. It looks like Expert should be 10 level like the Captivator. But regardless, not having a Master Proficiency is a deal breaker. I will need to homebrew feats for that.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

I mean, if you aren’t casting spells that require saves (utility spells like helpful steps) then it’s not a huge deal, right? Also, IIRC, now that spellcasting DCs an are all linked, you could grab witch dedication, get even more spells, and get up to master spellcasting. Tempting if you have free archetype. I don’t think spellcasting proficiency cares about innate spells or not.

[@gamesandstuff127]

@@PsiPrimeProductions1 It's an oddity that a Class Archetype that actually starts with cantrips at 1st level, is going to end up worse at casting then the Bloodragers Archetype, or even the Red Mantis Archetype. Looking at the expert feat, it looks like there is a misprint, and Expert should come at 10th level. That puts on you par with Summoners at most places. So, casting offensively can be valid. Especially if you use the Captivator as the model (4th/10th/16th level feats). In addition, you are missing out on 7th/8th and (if it follows the Captivator Progression) 9th level spell progression. At higher levels, that is worth something. But honestly, I don't understand the dilemma of adding the feats. From 1 through 14th level, the Investigator is getting spells from two spell lists and doesn't seem to be a concern. But suddenly, at level 16th, Paizo suddenly cares about game balance and power?

[@lyracian]

I have not had time to do a dep dive but my first thought on the Battle Harbinger was disappointment. Divine Font is so good since it scales and replacing that with 4-6 Bless spells a day seems bad. Thinking of it as a Fighter with some spells is a good comparison. If only they had STR as a Key Ability I would be much more onboard with this Class Archetype. The other issue I have is that Battle Auras do not scale. There are lots of Feats for sustaining Aura's but all that does is push the range. Unless the party is very spread out you are not going to need to do that very much. Benediction seems a nice spell but I would not want to spend a class feat to be able to prepare it alongside Bless. A Fighter with Cleric Dedication will have less spells but just seems so much better at what this Class Archetype is trying to achieve. On the other hand I am much more on board with the Detective. That does look interesting.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Remember that Key Ability Score doesn't mean anything for half your career. From levels 5-9 and 15-19, there is no difference between starting with a +3 and a +4.

[@symmetry8049]

The battle harbinger still uses wisdom as their key ability score, yes? So bless is required to get up to normal martial numbers?

[@manwithnoname4346]

Yes and no. You will probably have Heroism in some of your 4 spell slots. So from level 5 on, you can effectively add a +1 to +3 status bonus depending on your Heroism cast. Plus you can overlap the AC penalty aura with bless to get an effective +2 for you any anyone in your aura. There are actually a lot of creative ways to play with buff/debuff spells to make up for your effective -1 to hit

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

As @manwithnoname4346 said, but also . . . like, KAS only matters for like, literally half of your career. From levels 5-9, and 15-19 there is literally no difference between starting with a +3 and a +4. So for half of your career, with bless up, you are actually doing better than like, a baseline monk.

[@Pogopuschel2345]

agreed on the ""i wish they where master in all weapons part" additionally id have liked more support for non melee weapon feats in the archtype (and better action compression for bless spells but that one would likely be too strong given their bless aura can be pumped up with crits)

[@RatedManatee]

For the flavour, I'd likely be better of playing a Champion, but for flavour I feel more drawn to this one. The supportive auras instead of trying to give monsters doubt about fighting (only one subclass, but likely the best one). Pretty decent weapon scaling but having some spellcasting utility. It fills that niche that I wanted from the updated Battle Bard, which ended up still being mostly a caster.

[@IndieGoFigure]

Its a shame so few deities have polearms as their weapons, they fit battle harbinger really well.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Shelyn has the Glave, Jaindi has the scythe, the Stag Mother has a Ranseur, those are some just off the top of my head.

[@IndieGoFigure]

​Currently planning on a Guisiarme wielding Saloc wielder, if you include other 2 handed reach weapons Son Wukong's bo staff is another fun option. A limited selection but by no means a bad one.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

I actually had a premaster Liberation champion of Sun Wukong who used a bo staff only for flavor reasons. Turned out to be great. He didn't deal much damage, but it was super easy for him to set up flanking with the rogue, and he could help allies step away and still hit from a distance.

[@IndieGoFigure]

Doesn't get much better than having to live freely, drink and play pranks to keep your class features working. Not being able to turn down bets must of been a great hook for the GM though.

[@valvadis2360]

I'm really curious about the Witch Patrons. Probably not going to switch the one i play, i already did that when Devourer of Decay came out, but it's still interesting to hear the flavour of each one.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

There is one that is kinda better than all other patrons, a balance one (forgot the exact name ATM), that I think they’ll need to errata. It does damage and is like the lesson of life all in one. Other than that they are cool.

[@mineflameblade8788]

Ngl. You could use battle harbinger to make a Hellknight Signifer. (For those who don't know, signifers are spellcasters who pledge themselves to being faceless enforcers of law. Found in every order of the faction, they play an important role. From healing the wounded, to removing curses, or using divination magic to track down criminals) I feel like I need to play this class to even have an opinion on it though. (Which is kinda hard to do since I'm stuck on mobile and struggling to find 2e games to join)

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Ah Hellknights, they are . . . Problematic in most games. I still remember when my 1e warpriest of Abdar tried to make a citizen’s arrest on some hellknights that were technically breaking the law. He was right. They attacked, which was attempted murder and by then they were certainly breaking the law.

[@mineflameblade8788]

@PsiPrimeProductions1 What crime were the Hellknights were doing? As breaking laws are usually a big no no for Hellknights.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

PFS scenario, so minor spoilers from PFS1 They were in Chelliax, and part of a conspiracy to keep the 'state lies' going and prevent some guy from revealing the true Chellaxian history. They had official orders to confiscate this guy's library, and so they did so, and were going to burn it. I pointed out their orders were 'confiscate' and not 'destruction of property,' and told them that if they didn't stop, I'd have to perform a citizen's arrest. Fight ensued, where my warpriest attacked them with his pen (iron brush) that did 1d8 damage per hit because of how 1e warpriests worked.

[@mineflameblade8788]

@PsiPrimeProductions1 Ngl. Sounds like its ether Order of the rack. Or Thrune's personal order. (I forgot the name. But I know they operate in Cheliax. I've read Path Of The Hellknight) But. Yeah. I think your Abbadar cleric was in the right. But Cheliax is a !@#$hole. Even my Cheliax Noble. Deckkard Leroung. Hate Cheliax in its current state, mostly due to harboring a lot of ire towards Abigail Thrune. (Tbf. Who DOESN'T hate The Thrune Family for turning Cheliax into an Infernal empire of slavery and devil worship?)

[@KOkami03]

So... Two things: First: I totally agree with you on the Battle Harbinger. I REALLY don't get what the deal is with all the hate and negativity regarding it. Second: In regard to the Palatine Detect, it is important to note that the spells the archetype give are all INNATE spells. This means, as far as abilities that require you be a spellcaster, your character will not be considered one. So, yeah, you are definitely better off picking utility spells for this. Also, had an interesting idea PsiPrimeProductions: What if you made a video dedicated to discussing how to reflavoring material in Pathfinder? Like when you discussed the Exemplar class or tackled the Might Nein?

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

I've thought about an idea like that for a while. Will probably have to wait until the new year though, go so much to chew through right now.

[@KOkami03]

@@PsiPrimeProductions1 Fair enough. Until then.

[@gamesandstuff127]

It's more of a spellcaster then a Scoundrel with the Captivator Archetype, so I'm fine with Innate spells.

[@evezinhe]

Small thing, be a bit careful about showing your PDFs in video, the way you showed shows your real name and email at the watermark and that can be dangerous

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Shoot, thought I got rid of all of them. Thanks I'll be more careful.

[@PlaneswalkerTARDIS]

You may want to remove the timestamp now that he’s seen that, to limit the chance of someone else using it to copy that info

[@evezinhe]

@@PlaneswalkerTARDIS Done it

[@Monstercloud9]

"Jack of all trades, master of none" I'll disagree, because you don't have the spells to have a solution for various scenarios, nor a difference in skill boosts/#. What you're really getting from the doctrine amounts to +2 for your Deity's weapon sooner, and a +2 to armor which you weren't going to get, however you could get it in a sense if you took a dedication/general feat that gave you heavy armor proficiency. BH doesn't even give you the option to change your key ability score like Avenger, which was one of the primary issues that people have with Spellshot/Vindicator. And yes, I understand the argument that only KAS only makes a difference for "half of your career", but that's the assumption of going 1-20. There's a substantial chance you never see 13+, which means that for only 2 levels, you hit better than a Warpriest. Where you would normally take feats to expand your options, you're heavily obligated to take the feats exclusive to BH. Many of the feats, like Aura Enhancement, Creed Magic, and Tandem Onslaught, should just be built into the archetype. Considering how many spells/versatility you're losing, I don't think it's unbalanced to just give BH some of these feats to reward those that have a very specific fantasy they want to play.

[@ogun6464]

I don't read comments a lot, are you having problems with civility?

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Not so much recently, but it's always nice to remind people. And I've had a few problems in the past.