Division 2 | Common Knowledge? | Divisionalysis

[@hybriddecadence8679]

I do not understand how having 5% greater RoF from gunner reduces your measured striker DPS. That's the only part of this vid that doesn't make sense to me.

[@fogowar2022]

This is my mistake and I thought it was strange at the time but redid the sums numerous times. All confirming the same result. Your comment sent me back to revisit it again, because it wasn't sitting well with me in the first place and I've realised my error. I used DPS, instead of mag damage and, at the end of three days of staring at a screen full of numbers, assumed that the reduction in time would adjust the output accordingly. I should have multiplied the DPS by the previously calculated 4.46% increase. Thanks for picking it up. It does mean that Measured is actually better than shown.

[@fogowar2022]

Please see description for details.

[@ManiacalThumbz]

I'm coming up about 7300 hours on div2. I've never really got into the meat of each talent or the excel sheets but instead trial and error on my own. Videos like this really makes this part of div2 interesting to see because they're are guys like you who take the time and figuring out the core of each build. I understand each talent and its capability/pros vs cons/utility etc. etc. But I'd never really break it science down to figure out the numbers behind it. Your videos do an awesome job at that. Great to have guys like you in the community and keep on doing whatchu do! there are a few points I disagree with but that's just the nature of how build diversity works with each playstyle! either or great content overall. Maybe one day ill get to analyze with you :)

[@fogowar2022]

At the end of the day, I'm really only trying to explain what most people work out through trial and error. And I'm a long way behind.

[@wik_the_swede704]

I hope this wasn’t another unenjoyable video to make, but the amount of work and thought that went into it, I’m sure it was a beast of a video…. I really enjoyed it…. I know others will too, AND it has the added benefit of empirically showing the strength of measured. Thanks for all you do!!! Can’t wait for more debunks!

[@fogowar2022]

Unfortunately Wik, this was another unenjoyable one to make. The sheer volume of work and the stress of making any error, has really stripped the enjoyment from getting to the bottom of these puzzles. I'm glad people have enjoyed it though. Thanks.

[@JHeckman12]

The answer nobody asked for is the best kind of answer! Seriously, this stuff is interesting, even if it doesn't make me any better at clearing legendaries.

[@OriginalPhill]

*dusts off apartment *

[@hybriddecadence8679]

Yup.

[@nealio6458]

Looking at another comment I know you might struggle with motivation on analyzing fractions of percentage gains, but I for one love finding out how to play the game just a bit more efficiently. That pleasure IS noticeable to me, even though I don't notice the actual damage boost. It was very cool to learn how wrong I was in my initial talent ranking too.

[@fogowar2022]

Thanks Nealio, I keep doing it for people like you. I also do it because I enjoy the puzzle, as much as the play.

[@squad51_kmg365]

Another awesome video Fog! Glad to see another one from you.

[@fogowar2022]

Cheers Squad. Glad to have you along for the ride.

[@IronBear47]

I love your comic book cover style thumbnails. What software do you use to make them? They are so cool.

[@fogowar2022]

My mate makes them in photoshop.

[@IronBear47]

@@fogowar2022 they are sooooo good. Does he do freelance work? Haha

[@GoatMeal365]

I just started the video, didn’t read the comments and I’m gonna guess the order from best to worst on this build: 1. Measured 2. Flatline 3. Optimist 4. Ranger I’ll see if I was right by the time I’m done

[@fogowar2022]

Not bad Goat. Either Ranger was the one that tripped you up or you overestimated the other three.

[@GoatMeal365]

@@fogowar2022 Oh wow! I was close. Definitely underestimated Ranger 😆. My guesses were solely based on how performance felt using all of these talents, but I admit I barely ever use ranger. I gotta try it out more. Thanks for the high quality analyses 👌

[@jowallprieto7727]

Perfect Video, the math all checks out took the time to check it made the video go for over an hour, pausing and playing but it was worth it to confirm. This also confirms for me while measured in team play feels so much stronger specially performing tact reloads, when you have multiple team mates funneling fire into spawn door which sometimes doesn't allow you to get your full stacks, so Measured feels good there where I can beat them to the punch per say, and gain my stacks before the wave just disintegrates at the spawn location before moving to the next area. The F2000 AR with Measured feels really good it already has a high rate of fire.

[@fogowar2022]

I must have checked the maths about 15x at least. I kept picking up tiny errors here and there, which meant having to start over again. It's one of the reasons why I've dreaded making this video. An error even made it into the final cut, despite numerous checks.

[@d15p4tch6]

Honestly, for heroic much of this discussion doesn't even matter: "best" would probably be the oreo with the striker shield or a one-shot build - both of which aren't that hard to pull off. Once you get to legendary, that isn't going to be usable for most people. I also a biiiit want to challenge the idea that flatline is decreased in value because of the technician specialization: in your video analyzing Technician and Gunner, (at the end) you said that the DPS difference between the two wasn't necessarily something you could count on, it was just for your information. Maybe I misunderstood something, but to me, that means that you can't necessarily take those two into account for the next set of calculations.

[@fogowar2022]

As you point out, for Heroic, I really don't think the discussion is that useful. The Technician-Gunner video was based on Legendary. Technician gained ~5% added damage from having 12% Damage to Robotics. On that Legendary build, I haven't done the numbers but I think we'd see a similar to better advantage to a Measured/Gunner combo, over Flatline/Tech. The larger number of stacks and no diminishing from Obliterate is almost definitely more than enough to offset the Damage to Robots.

[@stephenjohnson6841]

Another awesome and very interesting breakdown video! Thanks again!

[@InvaderDoom05]

Ok so what I have learned from the last 2 vids from fog is,Math is hard 😂😂😢

[@RegazozoGaming]

Measured maybe a good talent on paper but it falls into the same trap as bighorn(highest dps AR currently); they both feel crap when using them. The other talents you can toss on and they do, something, and don’t throw you off with inconsistent fire rate and recoil variation. If you are a body shot player this won’t affect you as much, keep in mind you are throwing away a multiplier to accommodate a talent. It’s interesting to know the math but doesn’t change my mind on the talent. Strikers being a massive 50% dps jump from traditional high end builds and expertise adding even more, the weapon talent choice is less of a concern now, we have enough overhead we can use what feels better and still be insanely effective.

[@fogowar2022]

Agreed.

[@d15p4tch6]

I've got a bad feeling about this... 😂

[@fogowar2022]

We've both benefitted from each others' work. You just inspired me to stop being lazy and explain what I've learned, up to this point. The game's complexity continues to surprise me.

[@blakemorris2753]

Say d14p4tch, you didn't happen to catch the part where Fog pointed out the rate of stack accumulation, especially in terms of crit strikes, due to Measured's manipulation of time periods did you? I ask for no particular reason.... 😆

[@blakemorris2753]

Did my comment get eaten by KZbin?

[@d15p4tch6]

@@blakemorris2753 not sure, I didn't see one!

[@blakemorris2753]

@@d15p4tch6 I was asking if you happened to catch the part of the video where Fog details the significance of measured's time manipulation mechanic on stacking talents, *especially* crit strikes proccing obliterate stacks. ...purely out of curiosity, as I myself found that argument particularly interesting XD

[@ContraBandido]

Very informative, Fog. I learn for every video you produce. I'd like to see a video on "marksman" rifles. Suddenly there is a big interest in marksman, with dozens of builds. Most of these builds are just dead air. No real content. Nothing to grab attention.

[@fogowar2022]

I haven't run a sniper/marksman build in ages and it has been on my to do list. Tux has a heap of builds in this category, it's one of his favourite playstyles.

[@ContraBandido]

@@fogowar2022 Yes sir, I’m running a Tux Marksman build now. Hope this topic moves up on your to-do list.

[@Amell_Wesker]

So measured won't be that good when used with a build that has 2 blue cores for example?

[@fogowar2022]

Correct Amell. The % added by Flatline and Ranger stay roughly the same but as the number of blues increase, Measured begins to get worse and Optimist begins to get better. Same goes for if you you have less Expertise on the weapon.

[@ADway-hn7qu]

My issue with measured is that it doesn't do what it *feels* like it should do. The talent feels like you should pace your shots for the bottom half of the mag, so I would like to see a version of this talent that increases headshot damage and accuracy. Like a High End version of the Bighorn talent.

[@fogowar2022]

I don't like the feel of Measured either. As good as your alternate Bighorn talent version is, I think the Exotics need to keep their unique talents, otherwise they're no longer exotic.

[@hybriddecadence8679]

Another thing, i noticed Strained is not even being mentioned while many woukd have us believe that strained is better than optimist even on a high Rof, which i find to be a surprisng new trend. I usually keep weapons with strained, optimist, and measured.

[@fogowar2022]

On this build, Strained would rank lowest on the table, returning about 4% damage. The high rate of fire of both the Famas and Strikers combined, along with the same end of mag damage problems faced by Optimist, are a killer for the talent. If you change to a slower firing weapon, to gain more from Strained, you'd lose the stacking advantages of the higher RPM weapon. There are builds and weapons where Strained could be best in slot, but it's not this one.

[@palim-ux9ry]

as a general build question, i see alot of striker, coyote, ceska. BUT i dont understand how the ceska keeps that slot. If we talk about 4 player activity and one already got coyote mask. wouldnt walker harris mask, striker set+ grupo kneepads outperform that build at all times? thx

[@fogowar2022]

There is value in a second player running Coyotes. You can watch my first Coyotes video to get an idea of why. Once there are two in the group, then everyone can pretty much rely on 10% CC being active all the time. Then, the 3rd/4th DPS member can select a Grupo/Fenris/Sokolov/Contractors/Foxes as the best replacements for the Coyotes; but exempt SMG builds, the Ceska is the best piece to keep.

[@palim-ux9ry]

@@fogowar2022 ah i see. So walker Harris isnt superior to fenris and other weapontyp boosting Sets? Back in the day walker Harris dealt more dmg since it calculated in a Different way. But i gotta check that vid out, thanks for all the great work

[@fogowar2022]

@@palim-ux9ry It's as simple as Walker = 5%, others = 10%.

[@palim-ux9ry]

@@fogowar2022 yeah no. 5% weap dmg isnt the same as specific dmg if i remember right. walker harris always outperformed those ar/smg stats. i've been out of buildcrafting but if i remember correctly walker's 5 % has a different calculation as those 10% specific.

[@fogowar2022]

@@palim-ux9ry W&H weapon damage is half as much as the other weapon specific damages but W&H damage has the advantage that it can be applied to any weapon type. It's easiest to think about Ceska as freeing up 2 x CC slots for CD instead, which means ~ 24% crit damage.

[@SquidlyCFST]

So I'm guessing that with the diminished returns principle means that the straighter chest is a waste?

[@fogowar2022]

It certainly applies to the Striker's chest (it only receives diminished returns from its own talent because it works as its own modifier) but even with diminished returns, it's hard to get another chest talent that provides the same return. You can check out my "Build the Meta" video where I go into the difference between using it and an Obliterate chest for instance. Just remember that since that video, Obliterate stacks now lasts for 10s, as opposed to 5s.

[@davidbenfield528]

Excellent, as always.

[@JonathanD-j2u]

Problem is you can’t put link laser pointer on a famas so your testing a Carbine 7. How does that factor in

[@fogowar2022]

It doesn't factor in to any of the calculations, base weapon damage can be whatever, it applies to all and so end % will remain the same (I even had the wrong base damage for the Famas). It does impact weapon selection and this could hurt flatline further, if the best in slot weapon is one that doesn't allow the LL pointer.

[@marcoonroad7]

I just use flatline everywhere (or in-sync sometimes) in PVE, in PVP optimism is losing value due expertise, in-sync and flatline likewise (due EMP and 100% pulse RES builds), so for PVP I think that measured and strained are the best-in-slot talents.

[@fogowar2022]

Measured loses a lot of value on PVP builds due to the blue cores. Strained suffers from end of mag difficulties like Optimist does too. I've only just started looking at PVP and early days but I'm leaning towards fast hands at the moment.

[@Zachthe504]

Amazing video, hopefully this becomes common knowledge to most aside from the cheaters..

[@fountedakis]

So if I have to unload all my ammo into 1 motionless enemy I'm going to use measured. Good job

[@fogowar2022]

I don't understand your comment. But I have a feeling that makes two of us.

[@bravonews1827]

Keep em coming, great content!

[@elfmz]

A true masterclass as usual

[@ItsMrMetaverse]

I love your videos man.

[@SaltyOldBaldurian]

...here we go... 1:07 and I'm taking an SMG (probably a Banshee or 9mm Vector) with Outsider and skipping all four proposed talents. But that's just me. Outsider fixes the two weaknesses of SMGs, and the right SMG can do more DPS than most standard ARs, but then it all depends on your mission parameters as well.

[@SaltyOldBaldurian]

3:53 ...I'ma stop you right there... cause it's common reddit YT knowledge that you can't run the Technician laser pointer on the FAMAS... what're you trying to pull, huh? "Continue the joke."

[@SaltyOldBaldurian]

4:04 You! flippy-flopped! Flippy-flopper! (That's an M4!)

[@SaltyOldBaldurian]

6:27 ...I'm going to take a pass on Measured and Optimist for anything packing more than 12 rounds, simply because I don't want to have to always drain the entire mag to reach the maximum damage output of the talent. Tactical reloads are a not just a thing, but a necessity.

[@SaltyOldBaldurian]

25:31 ...that's what I said... didn't I say it? ...pretty sure I said that.

[@SaltyOldBaldurian]

27:30 Bye mom! Have a nice night!

[@rico-zb1qt]

This would help dps builds,if you have a exotic as a primary and the same weapon type as secondary, you gain the holstered talent. For example eb exotic primary and shield splinter secondary, you gain the secondary talent for your exotic. That would make legendary mission easier to dps. Great video

[@fogowar2022]

That's a cool idea Rico.

[@KalahariProphet]

I love this game. And I love this community. Even though most of you are grumpy a$$holes, you guys are awesome. Six months ago when I hit SHD 1, I put together my first build, it was the skill flame turret. My god, I thought I was a GOD! Ive learned so much from all of you bastards whether on KZbin or in disbelief as I burned the power plant to the ground in my first countdown. This game should be HUGE! Pity the owners dont love it as much as the players. And on that note - Veterants, the OG's. Be cool to the new guys and help them. Id dont want to be crewe'd.

[@Luffy101Mx]

did you try glass canon with flatline?

[@fogowar2022]

Normally, it wouldn't make any difference between the talents, Glass Cannon would apply a flat 30% improvement to all talents equally. But in this case, it would marginally advantage Measured more, due to the removal of the diminished returns by replacing Obliterate.

[@Luffy101Mx]

30 plus 20 = 50 amplify damage not good enough?

[@d15p4tch6]

@@Luffy101Mx we don't add the bonuses of the talents unless they are from the same category. So all Total Weapon Damage talents are added together. All Weapon Damage bonuses are added together. But these two bonuses would be multiplied. So 150% WD times 25% TWD, for example. Amplified damage sources are always multiplied, that's why usually they are the best. So PGC and Vigilance would be 30% x 25% or 1.3 x 1.25 = 1.625. this is greater than 1.55

[@Luffy101Mx]

@@d15p4tch6 you did not ranked canon glass talents why not?

[@fogowar2022]

Because Glass Cannon isn't a weapon talent.

[@wkrick]

I feel that Technician + Linked Laser Pointer really only makes sense when used with Spotter on the chest on a Skill build with two damage skills like Assault Turret and Striker Drone. The reason being that Spotter also amplifies *skill* damage to pulsed enemies. I'm curious what the "optimal" Strikers build with Technician, Linked Laser Pointer, Flatline, Spotter would look like if you were trying to maximize the total damage from both skills *and* your weapon. I know it's hard to actually evaluate the damage from the skills so it would probably need to be a comparison of the average time needed to clear Heroic content across multiple runs or something like that.

[@fogowar2022]

I agree with you on the Spotter/Flatline combo. Because damage from your weapon is so strong, giving any of that up for skill damage is almost always going to produce lower total output, even with two damage skills. Having said that though, I think you'll have a much easier time of it with the hybrid build, with the skills distraction properties and their ability to continue doing damage while you're in cover. I think the hybrid approach is much easier and consistent but almost certainly less damage for an experienced player. I might look at the qualitative/quantitative differences down the track.

[@grumpyoldman6503]

I only use it with Heartbreaker to keep stacking consistent. If it's hybrid I'm probably going to use capacitor regardless and then it's a non-starter generally speaking (since it would cost you a skill slot).

[@fogowar2022]

@@grumpyoldman6503 I've never really found a Heartbreaker build to like and the ones that I've created, that perform best for me, I'm generally running a Nightwatcher/Gunner combo. Hybrids are a different story.

[@bearable55]

A certain youtuber dogs Measured as a talent. Another youtuber who defended you from the first youtuber mentioned also has a video that basically craps on the Measured talent. You and your stats say otherwise.

[@fogowar2022]

It's definitely the most complicated and difficult talent to get your head around.

[@AlfaStation1]

I dont use any of those 4 talents. Also, a few % more or less dont make any difference in this game: one day i shred enemies to pieces, the next day, using exactly the same build, i can barely stay alive. Sometimes i feel like i'm going crazy. Why do i play this bad today? Then i watch my bonus armor and realise my Memento stopped working...again! Alt F4 always fixes it tho'. 😉😄

[@fogowar2022]

I don't use them either and agree those few % don't make any difference. I've never had any issues with Memento though??

[@AlfaStation1]

@@fogowar2022 My Memento stops giving bonus armor after +/- 2 hours of gameplay. A simple load-out change solves this but then i need to re-do the stacks of course. It's been a while since i noticed this so maybe it's finally resolved. Another problem with the Memento: It doesn't regen my armor when doing Summit. Maybe it's intentional when using the first directive, but i find this odd as skills like the healer drone DO regen armor.

[@fogowar2022]

@@AlfaStation1 I probs have'nt played open world for 2+ hours in a while, so maybe didn't ever notice. As for the Summit, that is a directive thing. The drone is classified as armour repair.

[@ic3so]

Famas base is 44,191? not 40,191?

[@fogowar2022]

Wowee. Another mistake I missed. Thankfully I used the same figures for the entire video, so there's no difference to the percentage outcomes. It's also a semi-moot point, as the Famas can't take a linked laser pointer as well.

[@davidallen1644]

Where is your expertise figured in at

[@fogowar2022]

Weapon Damage (WD).

[@davidallen1644]

@@fogowar2022 ok I was trying to figure where you put it

[@shirttypantyhose7186]

Thanks Marco;)

[@francescovitiello5138]

What about PvP?

[@fogowar2022]

It's coming. I'm actually struggling with the question of how much I want to reveal.

[@IronBear47]

Wow… subbed…

[@airborne1868]

The moment I go by spreadsheets to put together a build and have fun in a game , might be the time to quit playing . Don't give me wrong , these videos are interesting but more confusing than helpful to the majority of players . Now they run around headless trying to put something together that's not even their play style and wonder why they keep dying , just that they can use a talent that gives them 1.378 % more damage which nobody really needs . I wanted the apartment so bad and after I got it I obviously used it to make it proficient . Not even half way through I already hated the talent , the 40% drop off felt not only terrible but extremely weak . Long story short , I have a proficient apartment in the stash . At the end of the day you don't even need talents to clear content , game ain't that hard . I run what feels good to me and fits the content . Looking at PVP where every bullet counts that's a different story , but even there I wouldn't take shit too serious . Just go out there and have fun .

[@fogowar2022]

I agree that videos like this provide little value, other than to show people talents are balanced, use what works for you.

[@airborne1868]

@@fogowar2022 It might be valuable to players who live for the math , I just slap stuff on go in the open world and try it out . If I like it and it feels good and clears content fast ok , if not bye bye . Math and reality don't always match . We have weapons , gear and talents that are amazing on paper and the range but absolutely worthless in game play .

[@dh1380]

Yeah cool but like... You can get 7 mil dps with oro and ninja with 3 striker and 2 brazos so like??????with1.7 mil armour too ... Why are you wasting your life with this?

[@fogowar2022]

I've been asking myself the same question lately.

[@reytorres6848]

This is way too complicated. Just enjoy the game.

[@fogowar2022]

I agree Rey. I didn't really want to make this video, because it is too complicated. It's a balancing act that I've really come to dislike. Overanalysing to fractions of a percent, when you won't even notice 10s of % in real game play.

[@everythingflows3196]

@@fogowar2022True, but at least you’re vindicating some talents that get relentlessly shit on (especially measured). And the details are fascinating regardless of utility.