Divorce and Remarriage - The Anglican Renaissance Podcast

[@jaema8281]

This is literally my two favorite Anglicans in a nearly 2 hour long video. St. Michaels Day AND this. The Lord blessed me today!!!

[@Bradford.C.Wallsbury]

You guys should do a convo on female head coverings. I feel like it's one of those things that was a big shift towards liberalism, which conservatives typically brush off or don't care about, and which has led to today's situation

[@roddumlauf9241]

Great point Brad ! My Anglican priest's wife always has a head covering in Church; because the Bible says so.

[@roddumlauf9241]

@@royquick-s5n I'm not making an issue of it, I was merely commenting and agreeing with Bradford that it would be a good topic. Both of my former priest's wives wore head coverings. Paul says "because of the angels" probably a reference to Genesis 6:1-6 ( context being Jude/Enoch and 1 & 2 Peter) There is no division in our parish over it.

[@violoncello4439]

Wonderful! That interpretation of Matt. 19:9 makes so much sense and is in harmony with the rest of Scripture as you said. I wasn’t even aware of this view… you’ve both convinced this Presbyterian! Rev. Devereux is a legend

[@VickersJon]

This is a great conversation. Thanks! Appreciate you both.

[@everettpeabody8024]

My Roman friends are always surprised that I take a harder stance on divorce than they do.

[@royquick-s5n]

Roman Catholics recognize that a civil divorce may be necessary for the protection of one of the parties. They do not recognize civil divorce as the equivalent of the annulment of a sacramental marriage. 🤔

[@royquick-s5n]

Trying to be humorous? Roman Catholics may resort to civil divorce for the protection of one of the parties, but they do not view the civil divorce as annulment of a marriage between two members of the Church within the Church.

[@royquick-s5n]

To the censor of my reply that Roman Catholics recognize the necessity of civil divorce for the protection of one or both of the parties, but they do not recognize a civil divorce as an annulment of a marriage within the Church, why have you censored my reply, not only once, but twice? The reply may explain why everettpeabody8024's stance is harder on divorce than the stance taken by Roman Catholics. 🤨

[@TheDallasDwayne]

While I greatly appreciate the insights and passion from Fr. River, I would like to point out that his hard-line approach is not the only faithful reading of the text. For example, when, in 1 Cor. 7:6, Paul says "Now as a concession, not a command, I say this," 'this' can either be taken to refer to the previous verse ("5 Do not deprive one another") OR the following verse 7 (" wish that all were as I myself am." i.e., celibate). Further, per example of someone who came to faith during their second marriage, we might apply Paul's admonition in verse 20: "Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called," i.e., you are committed to this second marriage so stay in that committed condition. Related to this, note that verses 3 and 4 state that spouses have a right to sex with their partner. Finally, I think we must be very careful creating docrines based on a chapter of Scripture where Paul very clearly (and uncharacteristically) establishes that many (most?) of the thoughts in this chapter are his and not the Lord's: 6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. 8 To the unmarried and the widows *I SAY* that it is good for them to remain single. [Paul says, not the Lord]. 12 To the rest *I SAY* (I, not the Lord) that if any brother... 25 Now concerning the betrothed, *I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment* ... 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you... At least that is this humble Christian's thoughts. May God bless us all and strengthen the institution of marriage in His Church.

[@devinbrooks3927]

I also came to faith in my second marriage and when I began to discover these very hardline views, it really bothered me. Funny enough I became Anglican (ACNA) because they were one of the more understanding traditions around. But I've also had Christians tell me that I need to leave my wife and child.... I mean how selfish would I have to be to do that? that sounds more like abandonment than proper worship of God.

[@joelreinhardt2084]

It is so refreshing to hear the Canons of 1604 on marriage and annulment proclaimed fully. This is one of the most important streams to come out in the Gafcon world this year, imo. The departures from Anglican/biblical doctrine on celibacy and marriage going back to the Victorian age (and through the radical revisions of Lambeth 1930) are probably the most important topics for the future of Gafcon because it does impact the doctrine of ordination as well. Interestingly, some of River's criticisms of the hypocrisy of heterosexual "conservatives" are shared by someone like Pieter Valk who is coming at this from the "gay and celibate" side of ACNA. You should keep up occasional streams on marriage and celibacy. Another historical fact worth talking about sometime: After the Reformation it was not uncommon for royal marriages (or other nobility) to be contracted by agents. So consummation in addition to vows (as River emphasizes) was important because it was the first thing for which the individual spouse was personally present. Weird, I know, and important, theologically. Another topic worth covering: prenuptial agreements. The BCP 1662 says this about "worldly goods": "With this ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship, and with all my worldly goods I thee endow: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen." Can Anglican "conservatives" endorse prenups?

[@royquick-s5n]

Maybe there should be more exposure of "'gay and celibate' side of ACNA," which seems to be an oxymoron. I understand prenuptial agreements are not condoned by Roman Catholics; therefore Anglo-Catholic conservatives might be inclined to reject them also. Anglican canons pertaining to marriage might be compared to morals which have been associated with marriage through time going as far back as the apostolic era to ascertain their continuity just as the interpretation of passages of scripture may be compared to earlier interpretations through time. 🤔

[@roddumlauf9241]

There is a large section on Divorce in "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs". This section gives tons of quotes as to how the Early Church interpreted these scriptural passages.

[@roddumlauf9241]

@@royquick-s5n I find it very helpful and fairly exhaustive. Do you have it ? There are over 700 topics discussed by the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

[@TheDallasDwayne]

Per the conversation around 1:20:00 about celibacy being superior to marriage, I would point out that there are Biblical commands to be fruitful and multiply but no commands to be celibate.

[@MrSmoothMoves]

Are you suggesting that the celibate individual cannot be fruitful and multiply in an even more (Heb 10) biblical way (Mt 28)?

[@TheDallasDwayne]

I am suggesting we should not say celibacy is superior to marriage.

[@MrSmoothMoves]

​@@TheDallasDwayne But, the speakers share that the church fathers and the biblical support head in that direction. Do you have some alternative church father or biblical evidence (the two points referenced by the speakers) that we could use for this discussion point? I think it would be greatly appreciated. 🙏

[@TheDallasDwayne]

​@@MrSmoothMoves Of course, my brother. We must look at the whole scope of Scripture, which is to almost universally to commend, command, or praise marriage and the having children (for which marriage is a prerequisite) as a virtue and blessing. Here are 15 verses addressing those topics. **On Marriage** Genesis 2:18: "The Lord God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.'" Genesis 2:24: "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." Psalm 128:3-4: “Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your children will be like olive shoots around your table. Yes, this will be the blessing for the man who fears the Lord.” Proverbs 18:22: "He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord." Proverbs 19:14: "Houses and wealth are inherited from parents, but a prudent wife is from the Lord." Proverbs 31:10: "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies." Ecclesiastes 4:9 "Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil." Ecclesiastes 9:9 "Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun-all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun." Ephesians 5:33 "However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." 1 Peter 3:5-6 "For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord." **On Having Children** Psalm 127:3-5 "Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are children born in one’s youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their opponents in court." Psalm 128:3-4 "Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your children will be like olive shoots around your table. Yes, this will be the blessing for the man who fears the Lord." Proverbs 17:6 "Children’s children are a crown to the aged, and parents are the pride of their children." 1 Timothy 5:14 "So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander." Further, let us consider that the church has almost universally seen marriage (but not celibacy) as a sacrament. May God bless both all in our dialogue and search for understanding.

[@JohnofStafford]

Now I have a question, i admittedly haven't finished the video so it might be answered for me, but I'm wondering, what about if a young man or young woman marries a non-christian, and then they get divorced after that non-Christian commits adultery and abandons them. Then that Christian Mary's another Christian, and it's not until later in life that they determined that remarriage is a sin. Has the damage been done, or are they at that point in a state of Perpetual sin?

[@bmxfamily5]

They must forsake that relationship. A car thief doesn't get to keep the cars. Even though I think words like Adultery, and Sin should be strong enough words, in modern language insert "crime". It is a crime to remain in that adulterous relationship. It must be forsaken. Will it be difficult? Of course, but God is big enough to fix the damage, and heal those who are repentant.

[@JohnofStafford]

@@bmxfamily5 you make it sound like a couple high schoolers splitting up. I'm talking like it's later on in life, and you've long since had children with your new spouse.

[@bmxfamily5]

@@JohnofStafford God's rules still apply, they don't change due to our sin/ bad decision making. The consequences may be more challenging to get through, but again, by being obedient to God's Word, He will guide you out. What does it profit a man...Mark 8:36, Matthew 16:26

[@JustinClemente-ee4wn]

So, I've just finished listening to On Adulterous Marriages by Augustine. Guess what I'm wrestling with these days? Really appreciate this conversation - it's hard to find folks even willing to discuss this. One ask: can you give the titles of the two books you mentioned on this subject? I heard the authors but not the titles.

[@danielwasp]

One of them is Contra Mundum Swagger by Jack Shannon

[@JustinClemente-ee4wn]

@@danielwasp Nice. Thanks!

[@justinclemente7768]

I'm aware of the Canons and Customary of my diocese. I'm an ACNA clergyman in good standing with ADOTS.

[@someoneforhim]

I do have a question in regards to remarriage, if someone has been the offended party in regards to adultery. My ex-wife committed adultery within the first year of marriage twice, but I forgave her after I found out about it. About two years later, she committed adultery again, and I forgave her again. Some months after this, she abandoned the marriage. After our legal divorce, about a few months afterward, she texted me wanting to get back together. I said, these two words exactly, "Emphatically, no." Come to find out that after our divorce, she started daiting and was having issues in that relationship and wanted to get back together. I found out about this from her dad. Currently, I am still single and have only been on one date since then. That was last year, but that was it. She is now married to another man now. While I still choose to remain single at this point in my life, am I allowed to remarry, or should I continue to remain single until the Lord calls me home? Anyways, God bless.

[@royquick-s5n]

In the ACNA, cases involving divorce and remarriage are left to the ultimate discernment of a bishop, to whom they are required to be referred. ACNA Canon 7, Section 5: "1. No Clergy knowingly, after due inquiry, shall solemnize any marriage if they have unresolved concerns regarding any of the following impediments: (a) Consanguinity and affinity as defined in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer; (b) Mistaken identity; (c) Absence of the capacity for free and intelligent choice; (d) Bigamy, evidence of sexual perversion or conviction of a sexually related crime; (e) Fraud, coercion, abuse or duress. (f) Failure to conform to the teaching of this Church regarding man, woman, and marriage as set forth in the Holy Scriptures and in these Canons. 2. Any declarations of nullity may only be granted by a Bishop with jurisdiction and shall be based upon Scriptural principles including the foregoing impediments to marriage."

[@archbishopofconstantinople2904]

From a total stranger, for what it's worth I think it's a heart wrenching situation you're in, but I honestly think the acceptable route would be to remain single until you are called home. I pray He gives you the grace and mercy needed to honor Him. God be with you.

[@matthewhamline]

Sorry I know this is off topic. What is the Anglican view on open theism? Can one join the Anglican communion while believing open theism?

[@Young_Anglican]

@@matthewhamline Open theism is definitely heretical.

[@matthewhamline]

@@Young_Anglican thank you for your response. If you don’t mind me asking a follow up question. What is the Anglican view on the 5 solas?

[@catfinity8799]

The Episcopal Church doesn't care, but GAFCON definitely does.

[@catfinity8799]

​@@matthewhamline Most Anglicans accept the principles of the reformation, which have been retroactively represented and summarized as the 5 solas. However, the sloganeering of the solas has led to a flattening of Protestant doctrine to just 5 short phrases, which leads to a lot of misunderstanding. Because of this, Anglicans often avoid the 5 solas (particularly sola scriptura).

[@matthewhamline]

@@catfinity8799 I can definitely appreciate the adversity to sloganeering. What would be the issue at hand with sola scriptura?

[@tonilynn3179]

I think other views, such as by Darius Good and David Instone Brewer, are important to consider. There is much insight that they share about the Jewish traditions of marriage at that time. Very important insights. I think that expecting someone, who is already remarried, to leave that marriage creates more carnage and victims. I believe the Bible speaks to the mercy and forgiveness of Christ for those who are remorseful.

[@Brother-Martin]

Does Remarrige become a Unforgivable sin? If so what text would you go to? How does 1 john 1:9 apply to this

[@Bradford.C.Wallsbury]

Any good general books on marriage, from anglican perspective?

[@catfinity8799]

Paul says that you become one flesh with anyone you sleep with, so that would mean that remarriage is still a binding thing. 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 ESV “Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, ‘The two will become one flesh.’”

[@TheDallasDwayne]

@@royquick-s5nIt might not be a sacrement but Paul still says they become one flesh.

[@PostSupAnglican]

I found this conversation helpful and compelling but wonder what you think about a potential wrinkle in gentile Christian application of the Lord Jesus' teaching which he delivered to Jews under Sinai law. There are multiple behaviors in the Mosaic economy into which our Lord spoke (idolatry, blasphemy, sabbath desecration, human sacrifice, divination, sorcery, false prophesy, murder, kidnapping, striking/cursing parents, incest) that require the death penalty and so satisfy the criterion for "divorce by death.". In fact, adultery is one of these capital offenses. In all of those cases, assuming the law is enforced, the exception clause becomes a moot point. A dead spouse can't remarry and a surviving spouse is not married to a corpse. When this commandment is applied among gentiles outside the Mosaic law, where the capital punishment doesn't destroy the marriage by causing death to one party, how is the Lord's teaching faithfully transposed to our covenantal context? Are we to regard such notorious sinners as if dead to the community, and so to view their spouses as free? Or are we to import only the Lord's teaching to the Jews about marriage into our Christian communities, while declining to import the capital punishments he gave them at Sinai. Or are we to flatten covenant distinctions, declare every believer to be "Israel" in the exact same sense, and weasel out with tripartite selective abolition of the law for everyone?

[@rubatirabbit]

The problem with your reading of Matthew 19:9 is that if by no "divorce except for sexual immorality" Jesus merely meant no "separation (but not remarry) except for sexual immorality" then no one can separate for *any reason whatsoever* except for sexual immorality. But even Roman Catholics accept that you can legally separate (but not remarry) for all kinds of reasons including physical abuse, etc. This reading will entail that there can be no legal separation even for wives who are physically abused by their husband and are compelled to retain legal powers over each other and even live in the same house, etc. I don't know of any denomination really which believes that no couple can legally separate (but not remarry) except for sexual immorality.

[@NormALMann42069]

Hello