DIY Home Solar System 4 Year Results

[@ProjectsWithDave]

FREE Solar Financial Calculator: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Yn1wdMiLF-fvUdikB96oPWxMAZALD5m/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117695764163777825762&rtpof=true&sd=true See all my solar projects on my website: www.ProjectsWithDave.com

[@George_us]

Hey Dave, just FYI, that link doesn't let me input my own numbers (yes, I am logged in to my Google account). It is "View only" mode, so I sent an edit access request to you.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Simply download the file to edit.

[@hoffmantnt]

Your spreadsheet is a perfect example of how to present facts to counter people who only know part of the story. I wish more people would take the time to do this kind of analysis.

[@ericnewton5720]

Spreadsheets are for nerds. Nerds are taking over the world.

[@arnoldreiter435]

Love your comment toward the end......if you get started you may not be able to stop. I started with a 1K hybrid inverter, 2.4K storage and 400w of solar just to offset my power use in my detached garage. That was about 5 years ago. Today my garage is totally off grid and i am in the process of doing the same with my house. All of which is pay as i go so it is a work in progress which is perfect for my addiction....lol

[@hippie-io7225]

Indeed! My solar gateway drug has been a system comprised of 4 used 250 w solar panels from Santan solar in Arizona (US), a MPPT charger from EPEVER Tracer 6415AN (Amazon), a pure sine wave Inverter 400W 24V from E-Trailer (partno 34282693) and a home made 3KwHr battery (7S, comprised of 7 battery modules. Each module at 3.6V) It started generating power 1.5 years ago without a problem. Looking forward to gearing up for the rest of the needed house power!! So far, total cost $1,300 US. After a year of use, I checked each modules voltage. The batteries were withing 7 millivolts of each other (.007V) without a BMS! I traded a sugar addiction for a solar one.....lol

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this addiction, it helps to know I'm not alone... 😂

[@rawsonreyes9774]

Hi Dave I live in Trinidad and Tobago Caribbean and you are doing a great job I love your commitment to the DIY solar community. Continue the great work you've done.and will continue to watch your channel.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for watching!

[@dbf1dware]

I (and I imagine WE) greatly appreciate your attention to detail and your dedication to presenting REAL data with excellent analysis. THANK YOU!

[@offgridwanabe]

Just remember the advertised rate at the utility is usually cost of production of electricity, the real cost is always higher due to tax delivery management etc. so remember to calculate the real cost by dividing the final bill by the kwh used it is startling how much the real cost is. Also what you use the power for eg if you use the power to charge your EV the pay back is much faster compared to the cost of fossil fuel.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Some bills, like mine, include a base fee. Even if I use 0kWh I pay $47, so I have to subtract the base fee and then divide out the remainder.

[@lukeharry8648]

I have had Solar at our house for a year and a half now. Your video showing how you did it yourself gave me the courage to undertake the project. Thank you!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

That is awesome!

[@goldcountryruss7035]

I will be starting installation of three grid-tied ground mounted systems in the next month. My personal 9.6KW ground mount, our friends 8KW, and assisting my neighbor with his 5.6KW system. All will use 400W bi-facial Canadian Solar panels and all the installation sites have very rocky soil so the biggest single issue will be the trenching and holes for structural mounting. Two of the sites are in a County that will not approve ground screw anchors, so holes and concrete will be required. Your spreadsheet will be very useful for tracking the results, Thank You!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Wow! That's a lot of solar install activity on your plate. Have you considered using a blasted racking system? Then you wouldn't need to deal with the rocky soil. Ready Rack offers that type of system: uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5e4bf6aabc92428ec6194695/64fb3121f74540d8ec369bc4_READY_RACK_SPEC_SHEETS_V01_GEOBALLAST.pdf

[@huplim]

Well done! Solar is always worth it if you plan properly.

[@chrismaxny4066]

As always very detailed and excellent analysis. In the first 1.25 years our 16kw ground mount is operating it has produced 24.62 mwh. We have used 30.3 mwh so using simple math our system saved $6893.60 at .28/kwh! So for the first 1.25 years we only paid $644.81 (base charge of $19.95 in the 10 months of 0 import) for electric. The system will pay for itself in 5.66 years and 2023 was a bad year for solar here in the Hudson Valley with all the rain.

[@stewarttate]

Hi Dave, I used your spreadsheet, and because electric power is so high in California, our solar array will be paid off in 3 years! And we avoid higher PG&E rates for 20 years; this is why California leads in solar installs. I tried to get permission from PG&E to install a 20kW array, which is over 100% of current usage because I knew we would "likely" add an electric car in the future because California also has high gas prices ($5-$5.50 per gal). PG&E approved 17kW (why the fox of the hen house gets to decide, who knows?). At 17kW, we generate over 100% of our usage plus a few car charges yearly (based on two years of solar data). However, with one electric car being used (to travel to work), we need approximately 1-2 car charges per week or 50 - 100 per year at 70 kWh per charge. I prefer to expand our existing ground-mount solar array, but I don't want to be required by PG&E to move from NEM 2.0 rates to 3.0 rates. To avoid the change, we must build a separate, completely off-grid array just for car charging! I hate to do this because it will require batteries to allow car charging during off-work hours between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m. due to a lack of sunlight. If PG&E forces us to go part-way off-grid, I may find that I have no reason to be attached to the energy grid and pay the required PG&E monthly charges to be connected to the grid when I generate more than I use. It was first stated as a small amount, but by the time all the charges are added, it will buy batteries each month with no problem. I prefer to provide clean power to the grid at a fair price that is less than the cost of battery storage or what I currently pay per kWh to use power at night (which is now peak from 3pm-9pm). Using a few years of data, I can design an array that covers 100% of needs during low-production periods, with battery storage for nights and extended low-production days. This means we can stop paying the current special charges to be attached to the grid each month and stop providing excess power to PG&E, which they currently resell at higher rates.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for posting your actual situation. I have the same view point on off-grid vs grid-tie. If you can be grid tied it makes sense for the community as a whole because someone else can use your excess energy production. Off-grid almost certainly guarantees there will be unusable energy production that just goes to waste. It seems like it would be good for utilities to incentivize grid connection.

[@MarkRose1337]

Do you have a 100 amp service? That may explain why they limited you to 17 kW.

Hey Dave, great information in this video. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. One thing to note, at the federal level, the interest from CD's is ordinary income. It's taxed at whatever tax bracket you fall into. So, for 2023, if your taxable income is more than 44,726 you're into the 22% bracket. That doesn't consider any state taxes either. So your ROI could be even better than you currently have in the spreadsheet.

[@FuncleChuck]

I really appreciate what you've done here. I'm especially glad to see the info on the table at ~ 10:00 because it shows how your DIY took this job from a 10+year payoff to a 5-year HUGE WIN. You came in at basically $1/Watt installed which is INSANE. I'm looking at numbers like $3/Watt for rooftop installed, don't have a good south-facing option, and since I'm living in a non-net-metering state it makes my payoff basically "lol never" so there's just no way I'm going to bother with Solar in this home. Maybe if I install a new garage, I'll change the roofline to give me some solid south-facing angles and justifty it since I'll need a new roof... but with a new-ish roof and high costs, it's not going to happen for me.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yea, your situation makes it tough to justify. It's amazing how much of a swing there is from one person's situation to another in the cost benefit analysis.

[@rkeantube]

for winter, you could try using low voltage carbon fiber heating wire that you can turn on to de-ice the panels

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Do you have a specific product in mind?

[@rkeantube]

@@ProjectsWithDave nothing specific, they make those anti freeze pipe warmers and tank heating pads, one of those on a switch should be able to remove snow off a array without doing it by hand , just attach with some thermal epoxy

[@ProjectsWithDave]

It would probably work, but it would take a lot of tape and energy to heat 880 square feet of surface area.

[@brentjohnson6654]

Another great video, Dave. We just traveled through Ohio I am with you on the 7 year payoff and not taking loans where I can avoid it. In Texas I have good sun but also being all electric means lots of solar requirements. As high as 100kWh/day at the worst. As I calculate panels and batteries I may start smaller (not whole house) because I want backup power primarily. Thanks again for your videos. All the best from this tired traveler in north Texas.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks! If you pick the right components, it's not that hard to expand. I think your on the right track. The most economical starting point is grid-tie with small emergency power backup.

[@dofundive]

Dave - great content and very well done spreadsheet, easy to read. The cost of my house insurance when up to cover the Solar System, so I included that in my analysis.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Good point. Mine didn't change but that is something for people to consider.

[@extragoode]

@@ProjectsWithDavedid you add your solar as covered property? I'd be shocked if an insurance company took on an additional $14k liability without charging any higher premium.

[@keithcress1335]

Another outstanding video Dave. Much thanks!

[@rcytb]

This is the only comprehensive, downloadable spreadsheet I have found that works! Thank you for sharing it.

[@Gary_Pauls_DIY]

Excellent video. I have tried to explain how to calculate the savings to people and have failed. Your spreadsheet explanation captures it perfectly. As you stated, everyone wants to talk about pay off and how another investment would be better in the long run, but they fail to see how you can invest the savings each month.

[@zmarko]

Excellent video, Dave! Very informative on how well solar worked for you.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks 👍

[@MacSilvey]

This is absolutely brilliant! Thank you for all the work you’ve put into this. Cheers from my solar powered home in PNG!

[@racingtogreen2023]

Such an excellent video. The spreadsheet is amazing, while still being simple. I shared it on the Ford Lightning forums.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Awesome, thank you!

[@DevMindset]

Great calculator, I did basically the same thing, but also included SREC income (less taxes) as part of the revenue estimation. The SREC's are volatile though, with fluctuating prices and limitations for how long the program can be participated in based on local regulations.

[@TheNULLResponse]

I'm a fellow "Dave" but I'm BSEE instead of MSEE. Thank you for showing the data and being a excel table monkey. I have similar type of system design required, so needed this.

[@taylorbarber832]

Thanks so much Dave. I did my own in your footsteps and I`m not sure it would have happened without your guide and data.

[@ezelk1337]

WOW, what a great video! You go into every detail. After getting two quotes from solar installers and watching some of your videos, I am ready to install my solar system myself and save a lot of money. Thank you so much.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Nice! Glad it was helpful!

[@whatmust8146]

After 5 years doing my own off grid starting out now i am ready for the next upgrade. Can i say with certainty that there is no reason to do grid tie. Absolutely YES. I never was and never will do the grid tie. I jumped in in full swing with off grid now you can benefit from my experience. With equipments and batteries becoming affordable there is NO reason to do grid tie and forever NEVER have any more electric bill. Here are the facts: 1/ nearly all US households need 6 - 15 kw of inverter power( it is even less with tiny home) 1.1/. nearly all US households need 10 - 20 kwh of battery capacity to go off grid 2/ 4 biggest energy suckers are. dryer, stove, ac and water heater all use 220V 3/ the reason for up to 15 kwh is because of no.2 with worse case scenario of all ON at the same time 4/ it is super easy to scale up if more power is needed as all can be parallel or series connections for more power (solar panel, inverter, charge controller, battery) 5/ high cost of solar power is NOT the equipments or batteries but the people doing the work to install 6/ there are plenty of Utubes and information to do it yourself, DC electronic and electricity are super easy to understand and implement and NO you do not get shocked easily as AC For 5 years i was on 110V with 3kw inverter and that ran the whole house easily. It is a very simple process. If what you start out is not enough for your need then just scale up by adding more inverter and battery and solar panel. Now how do you think i know about these with specific numbers? Well that is a benefit of doing from scratch. I built battery from recycle battery. I repurposed UPS for inverter use. I bought top tier used solar panels. I even bought wires and cables from recycle center. Very few people doing reduce reuse recycle in solar off grid installation. I did it!!!!!!!!!!!!! successfully too the first time. I know i write here likes this but still 90+% of the population still pays someone else to install that just how the real world is. To those that is diy go for it and the reward is well worth the effort. There is not a day any of us NOT using electricity. It is very satisfied to know that electricity is clean from the sun whenever you use it. My reason for upgrade to new lithium phospate battery, inverter and charge controller and more solar panels is I am getting my Tesla Cybertruck coming up and i need 220V to charge it. I will never buy any more ICE vehicles until the day i die. EV only forever!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@maliciousloki]

Absolutely love the effort, and the spreadsheet! Great work. One minor addition - the calculator assumes that a system is able to use 100% of the solar it produces. Meaning, you never hit 0% or 100% on your batteries (or, you have usage that exceeds solar production that you're simply offsetting with the grid). Also, there are always losses in the system that the PVWatts calculator can't take into account, so you're not really getting 100% of that number. However, that aside, I love this spreadsheet so much - it's a great way to show folks how quickly these things pay for themselves! Not that that's my primary driver, though... I need pure sinewave uninterruptible power and that's first, cost second.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for the feedback. I have considered adding a two stage payback number to allow for less than 100% usage, or time of day rates. It would have to be at a yearly level, by the month would be too complicated. The PVWatts calculator has factors that allow you to adjust for additional losses if you want to. Under the "Advanced" tab you can adjust your inverter efficiency and irradiance by month.

[@k4piii]

What an amazing channel. I always found solar panels to be a far fetch due to the price. Now, after watching your calculations, it's pretty promising, I will do some calculations and check how much will it cost me.

[@ssoffshore5111]

Another thing to consider for some folks is how installing solar might reduce other utilities (which can have additional monetary benefit), or improve quality of life. Examples...I my case I can heat with mini-splits, wood burning, or NG. Having excess solar at some points allows me to heat with the mini-splits during the day (or possibly at night with battery backup or even using NM), so it either reduces the NG I have to pay for, or the wood I have to buy ($) or work for (quality of life). Likewise, in the summer instead of worrying about my electrical bill, I can cool the house more than I previously would've, or leave the lights, TV, computer on etc... So there can be both additional savings, and an improvement in quality of life.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

All great points. Thanks for the input.

[@flyingjeff1984]

You are fortunate. My electrical utility sends me a 1099 for my production. If I had known that a 1099 was coming, I would have 'used' as much of the output as possible before selling power back to TVA.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Are you getting a 1099 for over production during the day, or just the overproduction for the year?

[@bhbaker220]

Great video. Interest on CD is taxed at your ordinary rate and is not a capital gain.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yes, I corrected the latest calculator wording to say "CD/Investment" and "investment tax rate" instead of "capital gains". Thanks!

[@readyplayer2]

Idea for your spreadsheet - include a section for a long term investment that many people use, like a tax advantaged mutual fund (S&P 500) in a 401(k), both traditional (pre-tax) and Roth (post-tax) contributions. These do have the added complication that many employers match a percentage of contributions. Fascinating to see the rapid payback period with a DIY solution. On the West Coast, roof mount solar is at least 3x more expensive than Ohio, probably due to much higher labor costs.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for the suggestion.

[@readyplayer2]

@@ProjectsWithDave Sure! Thank YOU for putting so much time and effort into your channel and sharing resources like this calculator / spreadsheet with us.

[@bobcole3852]

Great job, and your analysis was easy to understand and thorough

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Glad it was helpful!

[@fred6464]

I finally found someone in Ohio so I can have valid data. Subscribed! I have a very small system in my shed to charge my ego mowers etc. For my home I have a 20kW generator I would like to integrate into a large system and probably skip net metering with Duke Energy and utilize battery storage. I know exactly what I want to do component wise but dreading the permit/installation/inspection pieces. If I only knew a general electrician I could trust I'd feel better about it. With 5 people and multiple EVs I use a lot of energy, average 3 mWh per month.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for the Sub! That's a lot of power consumption, you should be able to justify a sizable grid tie system that will pay for itself quickly if you can get a net metering agreement.

[@jamesg6071]

This calculator has convinced me that I need to go ahead and move forward with an off grid system to supplement my usage. Breaks even in 5 years even with a 21k dollar investment. Now just need 21k of free cash available.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I'm glad it was useful for you. You must have very high utility rates to justify a system with batteries.

[@speedbuggy16v]

Great video, this is the type of information I needed to decide to invest in solar. Now to make the money for the purchase!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Glad it was helpful!

[@pstark8857]

Just an FYI: The ROI on CD investment is actually $22,322 (the interest earned) & probably less as the interest earned each year is taxed at the “ordinary income” tax rate of the individual. Also, interest rates are variable and likely to go down very soon which will make the ROI for solar more impressive.

[@jonathan-657]

Awesome update! I'm excited to have hard data year-over-year for my system. Right now, my system is over-producing my estimates by 18%, hopefully that keeps up. My electric price ($0.109) is a blessing and a curse. It makes my ROI about the same as yours, even though my system is 11.5kWh. Your calculator shows that Solar is still a good investment when compared to a CD. Let's be honest I didn't do it solely for the investment, I'm a super saver at heart. I just like not having an electric bill. Thanks for all you do!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for posting your results. Even if investment income isn't the main reason for installing solar, it's still good to understand if it makes financial sense or not.

[@MOHAMMEDCHAGHLIL]

@jonathan-657 @ProjectsWithDave Hi, what do you mean by CD, like DVD CD compact disc?

[@scottosborn4820]

Awesome info Dave. Thanks for doing these DIY videos.

[@FilthPig2004]

Would love to see the "mistakes" covered in an upcoming video.

[@oblitafier]

The one thing I would add is another cell for the rate the utility gives you for your electricity. Some utility companies give you less per kwh compared to what they charge you

[@wills2262]

Another great video! Thank you!

[@shansundaram2199]

Fantastic video 👏👏👏👍

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thank you 👍

[@NikiK57]

I wonder if you could make an adjustable rack with adjustable height so that you adjust the steepness depending on the season. Doesn't have to be fancy that auto adjusts, just manual adjusting for the winter.

[@MrPizzaman09]

I'm in NW PA, so we get even less sun, but electric rates are now about $0.18/kwh. My new house will be all electric and I'm thinking of doing 12-15kw. The PVWatts calculator suggests 1200 kwh per kw installed. My employer is getting about 1000 kwh/kw but their panels are almost flat versus my planned 22 degree roof angle. I'm also going to point it 30 degrees to the west due to the house placement and future protection from time of use rates where late afternoon energy will be more desirable. I want to do it myself and have been told by others it's easy. Not sure what the cost will be, but it would be amazing to hit the $1/W you did.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

You can get some idea of the cost from my line-by-line breakdown in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hn-3gGtpe9uUgpY You can get some ideas on reducing the cost in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pHSampJ9iNd6os0 If you want to minimize your cost/W consider discounted panels like some of the options I have on my website here: projectswithdave.com/solar-panels/ Also consider some of the value priced options for inverters like the EG4 18K. You can see some different options here: projectswithdave.com/inverters Also sometimes you can get a high end SolArk or other leading brand "dents and bents" inverter for really cheap at this discount site: solarclearout.com/?ref=PWD

[@MrPizzaman09]

@@ProjectsWithDave Thank you for the links. It appears that the prices of the panels and inverter are less than I was expecting, so I should be happy with the total system cost when I'm done with this.

[@dathat555]

Great calculator. Personally I would include a set aside each year towards equipment replacement costs. The panels may slowly degrade over 25 years but inverters and such may or may not last that long, and they usually outright fail rather than degrade. Perhaps make the annual set aside input value a percentage of the original equipment cost, with a small increase each year to account for inflation. The money does not have to be actually set aside, it could just represent an amortized replacement cost. Related question... Does typical homeowner's insurance cover equipment damage from lightning strikes? If not, the set aside could be for that as well.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Good idea. I have had lots of suggestions for improvements some of them would make things to complicated for the average person to digest. I might make separate tabs with calculators that include alternate considerations like maintenance. As for lightening, every insurance policy is different, I finally opted to insure my equipment directly and add it to the base cost of my system. You can see that analysis here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGGVpIaLqMt3jsk

[@whattheschmidt]

Many panels and inverters have 20 or 25 year warranties. My panels are only 10 (but with 25 year power production guarantee), but my microinverters are 25. My SMA inverter (on my other array) is 10 years, I could have paid to extend it but guess what - the payment for doing that doesn't make financial sense. My ROI will be under 8 years, could be as few as 6 years but I stopped calculating. I did not factor in energy cost increasing in my choice to get solar. I'm in Michigan, north of Dave. I'm not 4 years in and I am confident it's unlikely I have to replace or touch anything at all for the rest of this decade.

[@DizzyPanda]

I don't know what prices are like now in the US, but here in the EU, as of today, it is possible to get solar systems for a laughable price. I installed a DIY 10kW solar system on my sister's garage roof, which cost her approximately €4000. With the potential rebate of ~€1500, it could pay off in a maximum of 2 or 3 years. Additionally, I helped my parents install a 15.1kW DIY solar system, which cost a total of €6000 ( a potential rebate of ~€2000)! Just for comparison, their friends installed a 5kW solar system on their roof for €7000 about 1.5 years ago.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Nice!

[@Patrick-jj5nh]

Great video, do they do something like load shedding or peak use sessions in Ohio? In the UK utilities companies like Octopus incentivise (solar) and battery owners further by paying them higher rates if you export/dump your battery into the grid during peak hours... people here frequently make up to 50-60 pounds in a single evening.

[@seymourpro6097]

IMO a steep panel array would make the best of winter sun power while decreasing summer peak power production. Perhaps a manual tilt system would assist in getting best power through the year.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yes, a manual tilt will significantly increase performance. I have no affiliation with them, but the best system I have seen for that is from Sinclair: sinclair-designs.com/solar-ground-mounts

[@messupfreq550]

One change which needs to be addressed is grid-tie vs. off-grid. Based on the read of comments many live in non grid-tie states, however, in off-grid one can pretty much escape paying anything to a utility as the "return." Also, purchase of good quality equipment (inverters / batteries / lightening protection) will reduce the depreciation / (degradation) unless one is purely doing this only for the grid-tie purposes (no inverters or batteries). Lastly, although hard to nail down with specifics, consideration should be made if there is a grid failure & cost of that. A friend who lives less than 10 minutes away, last winter had to leave his house due to a grid failure for two days and it was three days before his house warmed up. He did think to turn water off and took what he could from the fridge, but it was a major hassle. His expenses were lodging & meals, and lodging was at a bit of a premium since many others were forced to do the same. The grid is more likely to become more unreliable in the future due to weather severity increases (both hot & cold). Not saying it is typical, but the folks in Texas who had off-grid capability during the winter outage a while back avoided astronomical electric bills, probably got an almost instant payback, not to mention much less misery.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Let me think about that. It's hard to calculate for unusual situations with unknown cost impacts. I think that would fall into a simple risk/benefit analysis.

[@extragoode]

This is the best argument for a hybrid inverter, micro inverters with battery backup, or islanding (being mostly off grid, but connect to grid for backup instead of a generator).

[@atc404770]

Great spreadsheet. I’m trying to think of how I could modify it to account for states without net metering though. We pay $0.10 per kWh and only get paid $0.02 per kWh sold back to the grid. At that point I’m thinking a hybrid inverter with some storage might be my best bet but not sure how much storage and how much solar. My intuition tells me to over panel since you can get new bifacial panels for $0.35 per watt these days. Storage is expensive but since most of my energy usage is from 4pm until 11pm most days I’m thinking I’ll need storage to get a decent payback. Was planning on doing some storage for backup power anyway. I guess I could try to pre-heat and pre-cool the house during the day and put the water heater on a timer, etc.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

If you know the average between what you send back to the grid vs use on had you can, just change the "Utility Rate" on the spread sheet to be the average. For example if you avoid pulling 10kWh during the morning and afternoon but push back 10kWh of extra power mid day then you could use a straight up average (0.10+0.02)/2= $0.06 for the spread sheet. This assumes you are net metering by the hour, if it is by the month use the month number. It's unlikely you will be able to justify buying batteries when you only pay $0.10/kWh. Here is a video with more explanation on net metering: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6i4fGSag69mpJo

[@panospapadimitriou3498]

just bought several 10years old panels and turned em from mc3 to mc4 for my off grid project and some diodes if need. they all seem perfect with just less production and about kw per squares i have plenty of space!!!! i didnt see anything strange .. even the glass is perfect sealed!!! park wasnt abused . the only downside is that older panels cant produce smooth in shades . !!! you just need to think keep em until 12 to 15 years if the production is fair enough !!!! my thought says if no heavy damages apear then 80% of your panels will be fine with a 30 to 35% degredation!!! even after that they can be part of any second life project giving you some extra paycheck!!! wish you luck and beautifull stats!!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for posting your activity. I love second life projects for used or clearance solar panels. Like you said not every project requires the latest and best panels.

[@panospapadimitriou3498]

@@ProjectsWithDave i would love some 400s bifacial in future .. but my knoledge in maintain an array is not much and they cost a lot for amateur diyer!!!! keep the beat!!!!

[@Yorickunderscore]

This is an outstanding video, thank you for all of the detail. Are you concerned about the possibility of more wild fires impacting production in the future, and would you consider alternatives like wind to cope with a loss of power

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I suspect things like wild fires and volcanic eruptions will always be a risk, but I can't control that. I have considered wind as an alternate supplemental power source, but I haven't seen a system that made financial or aesthetic sense yet.

[@Mike-01234]

One thing people might overlook when sitting down with a solar salesman is the tax credit is only good if you actually pay that much in tax. My mother is retired she owns her house with no mortgage lives on social security and her savings. Her annual income is so low that she doesn't even file a tax return solar salesmen came to her house told her she would get 14k dollars on a tax return even if she paid no taxes just not correct. Lucky for her she called me before signing a contract when I came over pointed this out to the salesmen, he agreed said he didn't know that she doesn't file a return she said to him "I told you that" Of course his response was "I misunderstood". This video is good information even if you don't intend to ever install solar yourself.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yes, good point. Educating yourself will save you from getting taken advantage of. I've considered doing a video on some of the scams out there. It seems the elderly are often targets and I hate to see people taking advantage of them.

[@lewchaney2138]

Great information. Thanks from a new subscriber… ❤

[@brianmills4891]

Dave, do you have an electric vehicle? After installing my first 10KW system and seeing how awesome it was I decided I needed to have more stuff to plug in so I went after my next biggest expense which was gasoline. We drive about 40k miles a year which equates to about $5000 a year in gas. Replaced our Gas cars and added another 10KW system and that took our payback from 9 years to 4.2. I’m very much addicted to solar!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I don't have one yet, but I've been preparing. The first inverter I installed has charging capability, you can see that video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2PMnXturrScbaM I have added enough solar at this point to significantly overproduce in the summer in preparation for an electric vehicle. The problem is the initial premium for an electric vehicle has to be considered in the payback calculation. Which which electric vehicle did you purchase? Did you consider the payback for the car and the additional solar equipment combined?

[@brianmills4891]

@@ProjectsWithDave Great questions. (We have a Tesla Model 3 bought new in 2019, and a Model Y bought new in 2020. I was fortune to not have to use debt on either). Like you, I built a spreadsheet, and the simple answer is that if you have spent your life driving used vehicles (like I have), then you will be paying extra to have about any electric vehicle, but this is not because they are EV but because they are mostly new vehicles. And that extra has the inverse effect on payoff period. The trouble with trying to model an answer for mass consumption is that vehicle ownership is full of nuance. For instance, I would argue that there is no "premium" of an EV right now, depending on what you buy. The Model Y is the best value and best all around EV available for the average person from a utility, safety, and cost perspective. The LR Model Y can be purchased right now for 38,000 (with Fed. tax credit), which is about 5,000 less than the average new car price in America. Not everyone buys new cars, but if you do, then this purchase would have no negative effect on solar payoff. Just like you can pay 90K for a model S, you can pay 90K for a BMW 7 series. So to be fair we have to use equivalent metrics, and there is just now starting to be a robust used EV market. So comparisons to evaluate premium that don't use equivalent vehicles are of no value. The other thing to consider is VALUE and not just COST. For example, Tesla's are the safest cars on the road (tested by NHTSA). I VALUE my life and the lives of my family. That's worth something to me. They require no routine maintenance which does have a reduced cost consideration, but also provides a huge VALUE to many in time and peace of mind. They also have some of the highest levels of tech and creature comforts that translate to far more than saying "I have a cool car". I realize many, including myself, have made arguments that these things are of no VALUE and I would pay no extra for them, so to each his own. I think the fairest way to look at the numbers, removing any bias from the added value items, is to look at annual depreciation of the car you're considering versus that of the other option. In my history of owning cars I've discovered that used cars cost around $2,500-3,000/yr in depreciation alone (for example, buy a $15,000 car and it's probably going to last most people 5 years at most and be worth nothing at the end of those 5 years. We've only owned 3 new cars, 1 ICE and 2 EV, and in these experiences they've depreciated at closer to $6,000/yr. Again, I would suggest there is no added cost of the EV when considering equivalent ICE comparison. I tried to be as honest as I could and recognized that I definitely decided to purchase up and buy brand new cars, and at a time when EV's were priced a little higher than their ICE equivalents. I calculated that I paid a $25,000 premium between the 2 new Tesla's that we bought. And in my case we save $2,500 in annual gas use, and ~500 in annual maintenance per car, for about $6,000 in savings per year. So that's going to take 4 years to break even, but once that initial cycle is done, there's no more premium consideration for a like vehicle and now the analysis is much like your solar vs. CD investment video. When you play it out over years of owning and driving cars, the benefits of saving $6,000 per year in auto expenses compound. This comment is already too long but we should also mention that saving 6,000 is better than adding an extra 6,000 to your income. Because of our tax system, to be able to spend an addition $6,000 a year of discretionary income one has to make around $9,000. I know you know this but many don't consider it, and this adds additional VALUE to one's life that is sometimes hard to calculate in a spreadsheet.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for the detailed response. You clearly thought about your situation carefully. Your approach to the tax implications of cost avoidance vs earing income to pay for something is not often considered. I took the same viewpoint for my solar production. The money I "earn" by producing my own solar is not taxed. I have to earn considerably more before taxes to pay the same electric bill.

[@MarkRose1337]

In Canada (most provinces), we can get a $5000 grant and a $40,000 loan over 10 years that's interest free. In my province of Alberta, the electricity is net-metered, but the transmission and distribution costs are not (a new thing to model), meaning that batteries become a significant piece of the calculation (a second new thing to model). If using heat pumps, winter heating demand is much higher than summer cooling demand (variable demand through the year is a third new thing to model). Excess production can be used to offset transmission and distribution costs, connection fees, and so on, so it does make sense to overproduce in the summer and underproduce in the winter. Factoring all that in, it likely makes sense here to maximise winter production (December-February) with sufficient battery storage to rarely waste winter solar production, balanced against the "grid stored" electricity from excess summer production to be used on cloudy days. Those batteries will be fully cycled, so a durable chemistry like LFP would required. Even old nickel-iron batteries with their

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for posting some details on the criteria to be considered in Alberta. It's amazing how complicated some of these situations can be with all the differences in incentives and rules. This is the first I have heard of separating production cost from transmission and distribution costs. However, if you think about it, it makes sense from a business perspective. A $5,000 grant and a $40,000 interest free loan is an amazing incentive!

[@joemontana4370]

@MarkRose1337 that's funny - I'm in Ontario and I JUST emailed Hydro One today to find out some of that. Here is my email below 1) In a month where I generate the same amount of electricity than I use, what monthly charges will still be present on my bill? a. Electricity charges? I assume it would be 0. b. Delivery should be 0? Is the “Fixed portion” still going to be owed every month? c. Regulatory charges? d. Ontario Electricity Rebate? Will this get smaller or go to 0? 2) In a month where I generate the more electricity than I use, what monthly charges will still be present on my bill? a. Electricity charges? I assume it would be $0, and I would generate a credit balance in my account. b. Delivery should be 0? Is the “Fixed portion” still going to be owed every month? c. Regulatory charges? d. Ontario Electricity Rebate? Will this get smaller or go to 0? 3) In a month where I generate the less electricity than I use, what monthly charges will still be present on my bill? a. Electricity charges? I assume it would be $0 if I have credits on my account from the last 11 months. b. Delivery should be 0 if I have credits on my account from the last 11 months? Is the “Fixed portion” still going to be owed every month? c. Regulatory charges? d. Ontario Electricity Rebate? Will this get smaller or go to 0?

[@DevMindset]

Dave, is there a commercially available coupler for the post hole digger that is compatible with the ready rack ground screws? Thank you!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Not that I know of. That's why I made my own.

[@s4060]

Look at doing Wholesale electricity.... lovely idea. Wwe have a company here in Australia that does it called Amber electric. You can make money selling electricity.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I don't have the real estate to make it a truly profitable activity.

[@artinist]

Could you do a video on options to add a battery to a typical residential solar system to reduce the usage and costs of electricity during peak times. Most solar companies do not retrofit.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

You can add batteries independently. Here is a backup system I did with Victron: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6Gvg4GdobmXnsk I'm going to do a Bluetti version that is setup for peak shaving in a few months.

[@danielnicholls6868]

do you think bifacial panels set up for max gain on cloudy days would be better for low output months?

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yes, my research shows bifacial gain is a considerable benefit on cloudy days. Here is a video I did on the topic: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4S7f52piNigp5I

[@danielnicholls6868]

did your low out put months on chart factor in the added bifacials more output . i still think bifacials straight up will output better on cloudy and snowy days and still have fair gain on summer days. shiny stone and shiny fence back a ways.👍👍

[@ProjectsWithDave]

No, this data was using standard panels. I expect to see some improvement in performance this winter with the addition of the top row of bifacial panels.

[@mbram635]

What maintenance costs did you incur? Depreciation costs(equipment life expectancy)?

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I haven't had any maintenance cost yet. The calculator assumes end of life for the equipment is 25 years. I'm thinking about how to add an estimator for some possible equipment failure.

[@TedErhartCFP]

Dave, this was a great analysis. One correction on the tax assumptions that will probably make solar look even better in most cases. Interest earned on CDs would be taxed at ordinary income rates (not capital gains). Few people without a tax background will know this so don't take my comment as being critical. I would bet that the vast majority of people who would actually install solar are paying AT LEAST a 22% marginal rate (which starts at $44k of taxable income for single filers and $89k for joint filers in 2023). Obviously the higher the tax rate goes, the more favorable the solar install looks in comparison to CDs. And given where interest rates are today, 5% is absolutely realistic. Unfortunately my property is north facing with lots of trees so I don't think I'm in a great spot for solar.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for the feedback. Others have already let me know about the capital gains issue. I adjusted the calculator naming to indicate flexibility for adjusting for your individual tax rate. Thanks!

[@BelleCaliMusic]

What do you think about Tesla Powerwall in terms of safety? I heard it causes fires.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I haven't spent a lot of time researching it, but Tesla in general is world leader in battery technology. I'm sure they have learned from any issues they have had in the past and are constantly working to improve for future products. There is also the installer factor. If installed improperly you can have an issue even if the product itself is ok. Finally, if you want to get into what is the "safest" technology, consider the battery chemistry itself. Batteries with LiFePO4 chemistry tend to be more stable and longer lasting.

[@LevyPatrick-y4k]

Great video!

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks!

[@kyleweller3390]

Hey Dave, the rate you are using for the CD tax rate is incorrect. CDs are taxed as ordinary income, not capital gains. So, the rate would not be the 15% you are showing, but variable for each person's particular tax situation. Anywhere from 10% to 37%. Hope this update helps.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for catching that, I guess I should know that. I could change the title from CD to investment or add a label to indicate the tax rate should be adjusted to match your income bracket.

[@kyleweller3390]

@@ProjectsWithDave Great video! I've been following you for about 9 months, and am coming close to pulling the trigger on my own solar system. Your videos, your spreadsheets and data are very helpful for those of us still a bit nervous on making a mistake when we make the jump. Keep the information coming. We are all learning from you and helping to avoid us making mistakes!

[@clarencewiles963]

And the flip side on grid in the winter with no power freezing pipes, lost food we can or not put a value that. How-to plug in their own cost. At least you have a better understanding of the situation. 😊by some chance you could get a better idea I’m sure you’ll take a look and get some insight into what if. Thanks again for your input. 😊

[@patricksquires77]

Year 3 statistically out performed the entire year!

[@mikejones-vd3fg]

Great info, dont froget about the hidden savings and benefits, clean energy, less strain on the planet. If everyone was energy independant we wouldnt be spending trillions on resourse wars, think of all that cost that goes into non solar energy, we could have nice things. Say hypothetically panels got 100% efficient, you could run a vehicle on 1 panel that fits on the roof , would anybody bother trying to dig oil of the ground at that point? I dont think so, it would be a waste of time and energy. Unfortunatley solar is not there to rely completely on it, but its a step in the right direction.

[@sociopathmercenary]

Nothing is 100% efficient. Current solar panel efficiency is approaching 25%. Even if you double efficiency to make a 400 w solar panel into an 800 w solar panel... And you live somewhere that averages five solar hours per day, that's only four kilowatts. If you have an efficient EV, that'll get you about 15 miles per day. I work from home so that might work for me but most people drive a lot more than 5,000 miles a year.

[@roku22-c3v]

Maybe I missed it. Are these calcs for peak shaving or 1/1 net metering? My powerco charges about $.11/kwh but now only credits back about $.02 for export.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I pay $0.14/kWh. I get 1/1 net metering during a month, anything I produce over my monthly usage I get a credit of $0.06/kWh toward future bills.

[@chrisklein9144]

You advertised a solar lender at one point. Please let me know who that was as I want to take a look at them.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I don't recommend solar lenders. There are two resources I recommend if you don't want to install yourself. Both are free but may not have availability in every state. here are the links: The first is called EnergyPal, they will help you determine if solar is right for you and set you up with the lowest cost installation that meets your needs. If you follow my link to sign up you will get a $500 gift card when your install is complete. energypal.com/everyday-dave The second is Energy Sage - I used them to get multiple bids for my install when I first got into solar. I'ts more hands on then the EnergyPal option if you want to be more involved: www.energysage.com/p/everydaydave/

[@TheGuruStud]

The winter output is terrible. I'll easily use 45-65 kWh per day in the winter (normal temp to extreme cold). But my plan would be to keep grid power for night time consumption and battery charging when solar isn't enough throughout the day. It's 4.75 cents/kWh on my plan and monthly connection charge is $9. So, it would be very cheap to use grid as backup, but the system is actually off grid. Then, eventually, panel and battery capacity would grow to be so large that even in winter I would have enough. It's also very windy, here. I know wind generators are terrible, but If I can get 1kwh from it rather steadily, then that would cover my base usage, so it's not draining batteries during bad days (and of course a boost at night). In the winter the wind blows nonstop for weeks. I would only spend maybe 60k on grid in 25 yrs LOL. Your rates are insane.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yes, winter production is a big limitation for solar. Is $0.0475 the cost for your generation, transmission, taxes and everything combined? That's very cheap! Solar would likely only make financial sense as an emergency backup system in that case.

[@Alexdiaz727]

Dave, In addition to the capital gains tax shouldn't you also include the yearly price of electricity for the CD / invested person? The person who invests is still going to have an electricity bill every year. The person who invests in the solar system will have no or much smaller bill. So that unpaid electricity costs should be taken into account for the investment side.

[@Alexdiaz727]

My thinking is where the solar side has a solar return column, the investment person should also have an electricity cost column since they still have a electricity bill they need to pay.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Think of it this way. Assume two people start with $10,000 to invest and they have $1,800/year in electricity cost. One person invests the $10,000 at 5%. They have approximately $500/year to put towards electricity cost. The other person invests the $10,000 in solar and has approximately $1,800/year to put towards electricity cost. The question is simply which investment has the better payback. The outlay is the same for both $10,000 upfront and $1,800/year electricity expense. Clearly one pays more than the other in this example, but one has to consider the difference in risk etc.

[@Sk0lzky]

According to a friend of my who's an engineer working specifically on photovoltaics at that 10 year there's going to be a really noticeable degradation regardless of manufacturer's claims, so keeping that ROI low is a really good idea, given that I assume your calculations don't include that aspect.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I include an expected degradation. I'm not aware of a sudden drop in performance. Everything I have seen shows a steady linear change over time. I guess we will see after 10 years... : )

[@extragoode]

Regarding the addiction of it and building over time, how do you deal with the electricity company? My company wants to know exactly what what inverters, panels, and batteries I'm installing and how many of them and then they actually inspect it before allowing the system to be tied to their grid. Then if I add anything, they want me to file the change with them and go through the whole thing all over again. Obviously after the first connection I could just add a few things and they'd be extremely unlikely to notice, but I'd probably have to update the agreement at least once. Eventually the choice would be to go completely off grid or stop selling to the grid, but in the meantime does anyone have any advice on dealing with their incremental nonsense?

[@ProjectsWithDave]

My utility didn't require that level of detail. They just required the spec information and electrical inspection. Maybe in your case it would be best to be strategic about your timing of upgrades. From the utility perspective it has to be getting more and more difficult to manage all these random and mostly uncontrolled inputs to the system.

[@extragoode]

@@ProjectsWithDave strategy is definitely being considered for upgrades. I highly doubt the concentration of solar in Iowa is high enough to give them any difficulty managing the exported power, there's only a few solar installations. They also cap residential generation at 100% usage on an annual basis. Installing smart meters and enrolling customers as virtual per plants would make more sense for controlling inputs to the grid, but that'd take more money and oversight than the gatekeeping policies they've established.

[@ennis437]

This kind of nonsense is why I decided to set up an “off grid” setup with grid as a backup. There really is no price that can be said for energy independence. To me the cost and peace of mind of the batteries is worth it.

[@extragoode]

@@ennis437 an off grid hybrid with some batteries being charged from the grid if necessary is the direction I think I'm going to go. I may eventually go through their rigmarole instead of buy a million batteries, but the first couple KWs should easily be absorbed by my base load without anything going to the grid.

[@AgentOffice]

Didn't know you're in Canada

[@johnbrand5231]

When have letten an installer do the installation the ROI would have been 7.91 years and not 10.4 years. The investment would have been "only" 5k more. That can't give you a doubling in the ROI. 😊

[@jefferson883]

Re. comparing Solar v CD investment, don't you need to subtract the amount you pay annually for electric bill from the CD annual gain? Seems like you may have underestimated the advantages of DIY solar v CD investment.

[@AgentOffice]

Addicting

[@johnwolking3167]

CD interest is taxed as ordinary income (24-32 %) not capital gains.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yes, I updated the spreadsheet label to indicate "Investment Tax Rate." You can change it to whatever matches your situation.

[@MatWalter-q3h]

Hawaii produces power by burning diesel thus power is expensive.... I have not been there in 15 years but the place should be covered in panels at the rate they are paying. The pay back time would be in days not years.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

There are some places where solar is so obvious you don't even need a calculator to make the decision, but it will at least help you compare options and understand the profitability of each one.

[@snoflite5234]

Hmmmmm, addiction you say. I started looking at about a 13kw system. But is actually ended up at a little over 23kw. That was the first year. Second year, and now I am at 56kw. I think I am done now, lol. Battery storage is up to 180kwh, but will probably grow more. Fully electric house in WI and 2 electric cars. Been totally off grid since March. I do have a 20kw gen for backup, but have not needed it.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Nice!

[@adamscott7545]

Increase in insurance premiums 40% year over year should be added

[@ProjectsWithDave]

My insurance did not change. I have 30K of coverage included in the base rate. Who is your insurance through? What was the cost before and after?

[@mrct309]

Can you add in your calc cost of solar system maintenance? I.e. cost of component failure?

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I don't have a good metric for that since I don't have any failures yet. Do you know of some industry standard number?

[@FuncleChuck]

Most of these items have 30-year warranty (and as tech improves, replacements might justify themselves), so anything under 3% annual is probably a safe estimate.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I think the likely scenario is the improvement in technology will justify upgrades faster than the equipment fails. I'll think about a way to add that factor in.

[@drj2162]

what is the income from RECs?

[@ProjectsWithDave]

REC's vary depending on your location. You would need to add them separately.

[@davidcurry4433]

I still don't understand why people don't change the angle from winter to summer,

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Mine is a fixed angle racking system. Also, you might be in a situation where winter production is the only critical time, so you would set the angle for winter and just keep it there. If you are already producing more than you need in the summer, no need to increase it.

[@serenityplantation7638]

So many numbers …. What’s really the pint of all this ? Are you finding ways to justify long term payments vs savings ? I’m putting up a bigger system at my new house but I’m just paying for everything up front, so I’m wondering if any of this would any of this really affect me ? Or maybe I just stick to ur installation vids

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Even if you are installing the system yourself, the calculator will help you choose the right size system to achieve your goals for a reasonable payback time period.

[@paulclancy1371]

What's a CD?

[@stevevaughn8746]

Certificate of deposit

[@blondyagace]

What is CD, what does it mean?

[@ProjectsWithDave]

CD is a certificate of deposit. A common low risk investment. Here is some information on the topic: www.investopedia.com/terms/c/certificateofdeposit.asp

[@George_us]

Hey Dave, Can you please list the items included in your $14,420 total and the component watt ratings? Is it for the solar racking, solar panels, permit, wiring, grid-tie inverter? or Does it also include the batteries? Thanks so much...

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Yes, I did a video on the cost breakdown. Of course the costs have changed over the years, but it's a reference point. Here is the link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hn-3gGtpe9uUgpY

[@George_us]

@@ProjectsWithDave Thanks, watched it...

[@sociopathmercenary]

Keep in mind for the investment option that you only pay capital gains taxes if your taxable income is $89,250 per year or more if you are married filing jointly in 2023. If your electric rates are reasonable, you'll likely get better return by investing the money if you're making less than six figures.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

The advantage of the calculator is you can adjust the tax rates, investment rates, power rates, etc. to match your actual situation. Unfortunately, there is no one-size-meets-all when it comes to solar.

[@WiSeNhEiMeR-1369]

HOWdy P-w-E-D-D, ... Thanks ... COOP ... the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA ...

[@AverageNate]

I believe your payoff calculations are off. You did not calculate the rebate of the professional install so the return on investment would be close to 7 years.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

The rebate is included, 7 years is what the calculator shows. You can see it at this time stamp: kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5uugXurmJ2HaZosi=DlEL-HDeT3e9yxjJ&t=1439

[@tsp2jxd]

Great video. Love that you're doing what you love and getting paid to do it. Plus, now you probably get a lot more chicks. 😂😎

[@ProjectsWithDave]

😂Just one, married for 25 years!

[@shaunnightfire8269]

Anyone else hear a buzzing sound?

[@AgentOffice]

Fun

[@jedics1]

Where do you live to only be paying 14c pkwh in 2023 where everything has got crazy expensive? Solar really is addicting when you realise how much energy just falls out of the sky and how utterly shafted most of us are by companies. IF you diy and IF you are sensible about efficient use it easily makes sense, not to mention there are no limits to prices going up so doing it is only going to make more sense. Our leaders act more like loosers and solar is one of the few areas you can take back a bit more control while they are busy stalling the transition to pad their 401K's.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

I live in Ohio and my utility is a co-op so every user is a part owner. This results in better pricing.

[@sociopathmercenary]

I also live in Ohio and get my power from a co-op at 11 cents per Kwh. My house is fairly large and all electric so I use anywhere from 1,500 to 4,000 Kwh per month. I've been wanting some kind of a backup but that's a lot of power to replace with solar alone. I'm considering a backup propane furnace along with solar. At 11 cents per Kwh, I need to carefully plan any solar system to make it economically feasible.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

With some clearance panels and a value inverter like the EG4 18K you could probably make it work: signaturesolar.com/eg4-18kpv-hybrid-inverter-all-in-one-solar-inverter-eg4-18kpv-12lv/?ref=pwd

[@extragoode]

@@sociopathmercenaryI'd consider a backup propane generator before a backup furnace, at least then you can use the electricity for anything in the house. I'm on propane currently and doing everything to get off of it.

[@NeverTakeNoCut-offs]

One BIG thing you didn’t include is your cost of labor and your learning, tools, wasted materials. You seem like a smart guy, could you include the cost of your labor and opportunity cost if you had taken the same time and resources to build a business or otherwise enhance you income? Face it, people like doing this, that’s why they do it. Solar is not a financial decision, unfortunately, because it could be if the public utility commissions didn’t own our representatives.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Good point, I should mention labor. I tend to not count it since It's fun for me but from a financial perspective, it is an expense. You can simply increase the system cost input number to account for labor.

[@jstaffordii]

I calculated mine at $100/hr. I tracked my time from permitting application process to final inspection. My 9.25kw roof mount grid tied system used 50 man hours of labor. So it was roughly $5000 of DIY labor to add to my $8600 install cost of equipment and tooling needs before tax rebate 4 years ago. But that only matters if you actually earn $100/hr in your off duty from work hours. Solar is a hobby that you invest your better way of life.

[@ProjectsWithDave]

Thanks for posting your actual hours for your project. Mine are always way off because it takes significantly more time to film everything. I think I had previously estimated 40 hours for my original install, so not too far off.

[@NeverTakeNoCut-offs]

@@ProjectsWithDave For the average person who doesn’t have knowledge of electrical codes, electrical wiring and safety, there is a huge learning curve to DIY that’s easy to discount. Once you understand it, it seems simple, but there is a lot to know about sizing, spec’ing , and installing a system. If you only build one system, you pay for your mistakes. This is why it actually makes economic sense for most people to pay an installer, because they don’t wast material or configure things unsafely. There are hidden costs.

[@GoatZilla]

Stop with the thumbnails plz.