DnD Players || This is how to fake Charm!

[@WolfHreda]

"But we _do_ interact with other people in our daily lives." Not if I can help it, sir. 😂

[@samchafin4623]

I love playing scoundrels, raconteurs, and fast talking rogues, but perhaps my favorite "charisma moment" was probably from 25 years ago. I was playing a druid, and we had just acquired a powerful artifact which we really didn't understand. I accidentally created a permanent rainstorm over a field, soldiers asked us to explain the phenomenon, I told them it was a water and air elemental orgy. The GM laughed so hard, he aid the captain stared dumbfounded, and went away.

[@rebeccahorne9487]

I'd think you could handle situations like the last one by blurring the line between RP and dialogue description. Rolling an 18 on a wet-willy threat? "You're caught off guard for a moment, as the threat of giving him a wet willy locks in your head. For a moment, you listen in horror as words just fall out of your mouth without waiting for your brain to catch up. He's starting to snicker when you remind him that you spent some time living with kobolds, and their idea of pranks is a little more vicious than most species. You weave a horrifying description of how your team will hold him down as you trickle acid into his ear canal. By the end, he's gone pale and is stumbling away from you."

[@artfulGhoul]

These examples are great! In addition to asking the player what they're literally saying, I'll sometimes prompt them to tell me what kind of posture or body language they're using to charm/intimidate. Even people that struggle to find the right words can usually get creative about sharpening a dagger as they say something intimidating or flashing a wink and pouring the other character a drink to sweeten the words. In a way, asking a player what they say and how they act during CHA tests is really the same as asking a player to describe their attack instead of simply saying "I attack the orc with my longsword". For the 'wet willy' conundrum, I negotiate with the player a little on the target number for the roll. Sometimes they stick with the bad idea just for the joy of roleplay, and sometimes they take it back and we go with a more general description to keep the tone of the scene. Generic: "I charm the guard into letting us past the gate" = DC 18. Bad Idea: "I charm the guard by telling him his breath smells like trash, but in a good way" = DC 24. Good Idea: "I charm the guard by sympathizing about how hard his job is and offering him some wine" = DC 15.

[@PoorWax]

I hadn't considered how charisma actually manifests in-game before, and what you present actually makes a lot of sense. I will definitely bring this with me. A thing I dislike is when, in situations that would rely on a charisma roll, the DM just outright tells you "yeah uh, they don't believe you" before the dice has even been rolles, because you as a player didn't convince the DM with what you said.

[@jacobbissey9311]

Yeah, that's one of my biggest pet peeves, my regular DM did that a lot for awhile, I played a lot of high charisma characters with proficiency or even expertise in persuasion and the DM often just decided I failed when it should have been a persuasion check. I finally sat him down and pointed out that 18 in a stat means you are amongst the best in history in that stat, meaning a 20 means you are literally superhuman, so a character with 20 charisma is supernaturally charismatic, and this supernaturally charismatic guy has trained enough to literally become an *expert* at persuading people, there is literally no reason he should have a success rate that's worse than a coin flip at persuading people, ever; going beyond that, I went out of my way to build a character to be good at these things, I invested resources that could have gone to other things and it is objectively unfun to have half my build wasted. It still took several sessions of straight up asking if I can roll persuasion every time it should have been relevant before he started asking for persuasion checks when he should. Granted, there are a lot of situations where the tactic you say your character is using simply won't work, or what they are trying to do is straight up impossible, but that doesn't mean you don't roll, that means your roll determines how badly you fail. If you try to convince the king to give you the throne in front of his whole court, a high persuasion check doesn't succeed, but it does mean he laughs it off instead of having you executed for treason or something. I've always been of the opinion that what you, the player, says in moments where you roll a charisma based check isn't necessarily what your character says, whether you take the video's advice and narrate or actually speak in-character, but rather indicates the *kind* of thing your character says, the tactic or approach they use, and then you assume they *actually* said a version of what you said that reflects the result of the check.

[@wolfshadowhunter7763]

As a DM I have been guilty of this where I don't always do rolls when I should and have not taken characters traits into consideration (I have improved a lot since then, and see every session as a way to improve more). I think it's great that you talked with your DM about this as in most cases (not all) they will be happy to work on something you point out is wrong

[@jacobbissey9311]

@wolfshadowhunter7763 Yeah, that's where it helps to have been on the other side of the table, a lot of players may not realize when something like that is a simple oversight on the part of the DM, so my policy is to always have a conversation with the DM or sometimes other players when I think there's a disconnect between player expectations and what is actually happening at the table.

[@JDWesterman]

I understand wanting to hear the reason, as it adds flair to the game, but no other character has to display their ability, just as you stated the fighter does not have to swing a sword at the table. Asking a player to state a phrase before rolling is showing bias toward all other characters. My scenario at a game last Sunday: DM as the NPC City Guard Luitenant, "Who is your commander? I want to speak to him." Me, a Sorcerer, dressed in city guard uniform pretending to be a city guard: "He is in the restroom. His stomach was hurting and he had to take a shit." I was given an inspiration point.

[@Balrog4242]

I been getting a lot of mileage out of Deception by using it like persuade but making sure there's a lie in there somewhere... and because it's dnd there always is anyway so it's not a problem. As the other half of the mercenary guards came running down the stairs to see their companions sheathing their weapons because our cleric had em cornered with spirit guardians and we threatened em: "As you can see, your company has agreed to stand down and let us proceed on our way! We mean you no harm!" My formula is smart guy explains: "As you can see (no you can't), things are the way they need to be for you to give me the thing I want (no they aren't)."

[@ericsmith1508]

Oh have to tell the story of Crunch, the warforged Oath of Conquest Paladin and the best intimidation check ever! Crunch was built by a dwarven artisan and as such, he spoke dwarvish with a Shakespearian eloquence....but his common was broken and halting. Player choice and it was really funny to watch him role-playing not knowing what words to use. Let me paint you a quick picture of Crunch. We always joked that he looked like a 7ft Terminator endoskeleton if it had been built by dwarves. The party had been fighting a lot of devils and demons as part of the ongoing "main" quest and Crunch liked trophies. So he was this 7ft tall dwarven terminator festooned with demon Skulls and devil horns! Anyway, one of the other PCs had it in his backstory that he had been part of the elite guard at the capitol city they were in at the moment. He had been framed crimes he didn't commit and dishonorably discharged. Yadda yadda yadda, the party prove the captain was actually guilty all along and get said captain arrested. Captain is still threatening retaliation from his cell as he is locked away, claiming he still has MANY loyal friends and contacts and he can still make life miserable for Rek (the framed PC). Later that night, after the other PCs are asleep, Crunch goes back to the prison to speak with the former guard captain and tells him in broken common: "Crrunch fine to let you stay in prison. Crunch ok with 'system' serving it's function, but Rek is Crunch's friend. You do things to hurt Rek and Crunch come back here.... (he pauses and at this point uses his Misty Step to bamph into the cell into the captain's face and says!) ...and Crunch hurt you!" The player leans in across the table toward me as he says it and chills run down every spine at the table! No dice we're rolled! I refused to risk a bad roll ruining such a scene! The captain pissed himself and began sobbing!😂

[@The482075]

My favourite types of Charisma: The Leader: The Leader isn't the most capable member of the party. Rather they know the capabilities of the party and can get the best out of them. The Everyperson: Relatable, person that makes people feel safe. They don't immediately clock as a Charismatic person, however you want to hang around them. The Heart: The one who people confide in. They are the giver of pep talks, advice and keep the party persevering. When the going gets tough, they are the one pushing the party towards success. They always have your back. The Conviction: A person whose conviction is so strong that people gravitate towards them. They live and breathe their principles. Every action they do is in line with their beliefs. The Umm Sure Let's Try This: This person is more of a haphazard kind of person. They are experimenting and throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks. They aren't particularly wise, however there is a plucky mentality that draws people towards them. They can screw everything up and still be lovable. That Guy: You are terrified of heights, however after chatting to That Guy you find yourself climbing a mountain. Have never held a weapon in your life? After talking to That Guy you're in the thick of things fighting Goblins. That Guy can convince you to do pretty much anything. You are frightened of what they might convince you to do. Good thing That Guy is a good person otherwise... The Defacto Leader: They may not have the highest Charisma stat in the party. In a party of Bard, Paladin and Sorcerer they end up being led by a Fighter with Charisma as a dump stat. NPC's turn towards Defacto Leader because they are the brains of the party. Tactically smart, knowledgeable, wise and full of good ideas. They have a different kind of Charisma. They won't be able to negotiate good prices, nor do they have the "Rizz" to woo anyone, but they are the only one who can convince the King to not declare war. Where Charm, Deception and Intimidation fail, the Defacto Leader puts forward the facts and the King will heed them. This is why they lead and other charismatic people follow.

[@louisbaldwin1416]

Funny enough, this also just works in real life, too. You can just do this with people.

[@kirktown2046]

Ah those pop culture/movie references are ~spot on~. Well done~! I got a good laugh about Jackie Chan making deception roles and not really passing but... not really failing badly enough to arouse enough suspicion to be immediately apprehended or anything.

[@TYOjoe]

the movie references were pinpoint accurate. Also, unrelated, I've never thought to use a fingerless glove for drawing/writing, but my hand always smears the graphite

[@TheMuseForge]

I like your style man. This was some solid advice.

[@jamesrizza2640]

First time on your channel was laughing through most of it. I love the Rizz Roll I will have to use that. Thanks for sharing.

[@devilofether6185]

As someone who freezes up in role-playing, I need this badly

[@Laban6112]

I woudn't ask a player to do a backflip irl, but I would still ask them to describe how their character does it. Same goes for describing what their character says. It's not about DOING the thing your character is doing, it's about playing pretend and giving players creative freedom. Most of what we're doing is sitting around the table and talking. It just so happens that it's what your character sometimes also does in game.

[@yellingintothewind]

I think Blades in the Dark really helped me contextualize this sort of thing. In BitD, players can generally pick any skill to do anything, but the side effects change based on the skill used. So failing a check using _wreck_ is more likely to result in collateral damage and noise. Fail a social check with _finesse_ and you look like a fool, fail it with _wreck_ and you look like a bully. Applying the same idea to other games, I don't need to know exactly what you say, I don't even need you to paraphrase what you say. I just _need_ to know what the side effects and failure modes should be. Refusing to give this information would be like saying "I cast a damaging spell at them", or "I attack them", without being willing to specify what spell, or what weapon, you are using. Do you need to demonstrate your reckless attack? No. Do you need to say you are _using_ reckless attack? Yes.

[@rottus]

Came for the title, stayed for the amazing shading. Good tips though, for DM and player alike.

[@itap8880]

Regarding the "wet willie" example, I think something along "he doesn't know what it is, but you made it sound like worse than death" would be a better response. Anyway, sounds like good advice you have here.

[@Blording]

I usually prefer the players to roll first before attempting to interact, that way they can roleplay the failure or success afterwards.

[@jacobbissey9311]

Something I like doing, sometimes, is to base my role playing on the result of the check, rather than role play and then roll to see if it's successful. So, if I roll poorly I say something that wouldn't be convincing, or might even be insulting if the result was especially low. Granted, I'm fairly charismatic so unless I'm playing a character that is *especially* charismatic and/or have expertise (or loads of skill points in previous editions and other systems I've played) in persuasion I don't commonly have situations where the result of the die roll would indicate the character came up with something better than I can. I think that rolling first can be a decent way to take the pressure off if a player isn't especially comfortable or confident at role playing, since if they roll poorly they don't have to come up with anything especially convincing, and if they roll well they already know they'll succeed so they don't feel like they have to come up with anything great, you just assume the character said a better version of whatever they come up with, and they can workshop ideas or ask for input from the table to help them come up with something to fit the roll.

[@blackheartedshamanjr.7457]

We were playing a modified version of Theros and in the process of getting a reward for saving one of the city-states I had been dared to ask for the princesses hand in marriage out of character. Me being the person I am took the Dare so to get the Golden goose I came up with my what I could only describe as the most bullshit anyone has ever pulled out combine that with my crazy high charisma to begin with and the fact I got a high role because this DM also asked for rolls and overnight my satyr became a king of the greatest military city state in theros.

[@Gruoldfar]

Entertaining, insightful and useful for GM's as well - subscribed!

[@chompfishy6335]

I ask what you say or do? I dont expect politian level retortic. But a good line or solid rp moment can change the reaction. A halfling once deflected a group of angry dockworkers. He told them he was on family business. Halflings are known mobster in the city. The dock workers applifized and walked away. The nat 20 he rolled helped.

[@AdamPerry-yi2sz]

5:48 "I don't have to lift weights in a role-playing game, so why should I have to role-play in a role-playing game? "

[@dufjdh3u87rhhdbhfhd]

I had a wizard with 23 Int. There was a lot of, I think my guy would know this moments.

[@scottmarsh2991]

The film clip examples were golden❤

[@jasongretencord3326]

Very illustrative

[@0StarGirl5000]

I think another downfall of this approach though is if you have an imbalance of social skills among your players. If you're giving auto-successes, auto-crits or game inspiration out to players who can make you laugh or are really witty but one of your players has Robbin Williams level comic skills and another is shy and autistic and gets easily flustered, then you're basically showing favoritism and probably making the less eloquent player(s) feel bad and even more inadequate. I think its great to encourage players to RP, but giving special rewards because a certain player can make you laugh every time they speak probably isn't right, not unless you can recognize and meet each player at their level and give rewards out for effort rather than results.

[@NevisYsbryd]

The downfall of emphasizing player ability over character ability is indeed that you end up emphasizing player ability. It is the inevitable consequence of taking this route and is why the lack of mechanical and structural support for emphasizing character ability is so detrimental to roleplaying characters with mental stats higher than your own.

[@davidmorgan6896]

These are social games. I don't actually understand why people without social skills even want to play. I'm dyspraxic and you don't find me on the rugby pitch asking everyone to go easy on me. Part of player selection, for me, is finding people who can roleplay.

[@Gift_Of_Victory]

If you think about it, the function of the charisma stat is to quantify force of personality, your power to impress your will on the world around you. This can be, to some extent, modified by what strategies you use, as your force of personality is a power that requires some skill, or at least strategy, to use. That's fundamentally why at least describing what you say and do should benefit the outsome. It's just that innate talent and skill modifies the outcome, making excuses of a given caliber either more or less convincing.

[@sleepinggiant4062]

I never liked testing player's skill to play D&D. It's really not fun for some players (like puzzles). I don't allow the reverse to work. One of my players is very good at roleplaying, and I do not let them play an 8 charisma as an 18 no matter how charming they are. Allowing that to happen is seen as favoritism by other players, and should be avoided.

[@jay4hand]

Wow! This was your best yet! Is this an experiment?

[@RoryRose_]

this video didn't actually answer the question in the title...

[@roamingthereal4060]

So... don't... role play... sigh...