Do all fighting games need a HUGE budget?

[@mikeg4490]

Hyper realistic graphics are overrated. But I agree in general about "some games should just exist." Not just fighting games but for gaming in general. More side scrolling beat em ups should come back, sequels and revival to long forgotten series, ambitious spin offs, or these niche darlings. Everything doesn't need to have to generate Fortnite or Genshin Impact money.

[@cosmicspider2]

Games simply existing is why MvCI exists

[@esmooth919]

I agree. Hyper realistic graphics are hella overrated

[@mikeg4490]

@@esmooth919 an indie game like Sifu is the only game thus far I can say can complete with Elden Ring this year. Says a lot a 10 hour game with stylised graphics can be held in high regard by many people!

[@Altares_V]

@@mikeg4490 Genshin is also a product of absolute lucky rolling on all 6s circumstances. Most companies can only dream of making their ENTIRE BUDGET BACK a hundredfold within the first year. Especially because Genshin had a lot of features cut (and still are cut) for budgeting purposes.

[@marcosdheleno]

@@cosmicspider2 yeah, and graphics and presentation is the reason that game died. gameplay wise, it was as solid as they come.

[@darktigersharkmax4432]

Fighting games don't need every damn premium package but a high budget and other aspects wouldn't hurt. Killer instinct became what it is today despite a small budget but if it had more budget it would've reached its full potential much sooner and might have been even better.

[@MechaMan2012]

True, although a lower budget means lower expectations and possibly a lower price point for the consumer. Some games would definitely benefit from more resources, but that may end up with the result of higher expectations that may not be met and/or a higher asking price. In the age we're in, it would be nice if I had more $20 to $40 options, or even some free to play ones sprinkled in from time to time, as opposed to everything being this big production and asking $60 to $70. That budget it does get could also be used smarter too, focusing on features instead of cutting edge graphics. Although, then you'll get mouth breathers on the internet going "wow these graphics suck, looks like a gamecube/N64/Atari 2600 game".

[@NaoyaYami]

Lower budget often means that if developers really care about hitting it big, they will focus on less budged intensive stuff like actual gameplay (not saying it doesn't cost money, but too often most of it is spend on eyecandy instead of game: ME Andromeda, Anthem, NMS, CP2077...)

[@SolidSnake240]

All I want is a fighting game with more content. Bring back hidden unlockable characters and stages, secret bosses, in depth story modes etc. Tekken (to a lesser extent these days) and MK are really the only fighting games that still bother to put a solid amount of content besides multi-player and versus modes.

[@PathFinder1490]

Budget is one thing, but clearly the effort and time put in a [fighting] game says alot. There are fighting games out there that are visually appealing, but are also lacking at the same time. And then there are games like Skullgirls and Power Rangers [both mentioned in the video] who clearly deserve more love and attention.

[@marcosdheleno]

granted skullgirls looks amazing with its artstyle, and even though im not really into the gameplay, it is a solid fluid balls to the wall fighting game.

[@jebVlogs556]

@@marcosdheleno skullgirls,did "Amazingly well" considering all the other games that came out around its time across the different platforms and consoles.. :)

[@orlanzo2621]

FEXL as well, it’s actually a very good game and it sadly doesn’t get the attention it deserves.

[@Korinengamecorp]

You do realize that time is LITERALLY money, in this context.

[@PathFinder1490]

@@Korinengamecorp Yes and no. As one of the comments pointed out, devs can have alot of money to produce a game but if they don’t put in the effort to make quality [fighting] games, then time isn’t money imo.

[@CrimsonFIame]

I'd say the talent is more important. Have a team of people who understands what they're working on and what makes that specific genre fun. I've seen many games with a large budget but with a team of people who have no idea what their doing, Battlefield 2042 for example.

[@benjamin-papa]

Talent only goes so far without resources in an industry like this.

[@lightup6751]

Thats true. But its also undeniable that players now more than ever have become more self entitled and hateful than ever

[@martinsamanosoriano6118]

@@lightup6751 confirm

[@Altares_V]

@@lightup6751 that is mainly a societal thing it has nothing to do with the current audience but rather the upcoming one. It is also like all things not entirely true.

[@lightup6751]

@@Altares_V i dont know. I definitely think that kids in their teens and early 20s, kids who grew up with social media post internet follow this trend hate to get approval from strangers across various platforms on the internet. of course not everyone. can never generalize. yes, its a societal thing and like any societal element it bleeds into the zeitgeist of the current generation. there was never a point where people hated a movie, a song or a video game before its even released as now. of course theres stubborn devs that dont accept honest critic too. it goes both ways. theres miscommunication on both fronts. but many players today are definitely more toxic and quick to judge media. again, its not everyone but enough people that its a problem

[@FirstNameLastName-fe2tu]

Doesn't matter how big or how small a budget is. It could have infinite money, but if the game still comes out as bad quality because of bad choices, then THAT is the issue. Looking at you Marvel vs Capcom infinite.

[@pcharl01]

Was not MvCi's problem time? It had to be rushed, right?

[@blackmanta2527]

Capcom shouldn't have even thought of making the game if they couldn't add Xmen characters

[@000mjd]

For rumors the game had the budget of one season of SFV, so probably they got many problems in that aspect

[@lightup6751]

MVCI was horrific. But why do people always complain in comment sections?

[@keyontrelynch]

But Marvel vs Capcom infinite didnt have a big budget

[@xxnike0629xx]

I agree. Fighting games don't need to be AAA budget. If it has a good character roster, fun gameplay, and DLC support... Most people will be fine with it. Repurposed assets can be an efficient use of funds.

[@StatiCRjm]

Fighting EX Layer is proof of that

[@boruihu2310]

Don't forget, fighting games need a good netcode as well

[@xxnike0629xx]

@@boruihu2310 That is true. But I think that good netcode is secondary compared to developing the game itself (gameplay, roster, etc).

[@PsychoticBeverage]

Skullgirls is clearly heavily inspired by Darkstalkers, namely the way the characters animate; all stretchy and morph-y and exaggerated expressions. The character Eliza in particular, IIRC Alex Ahad has straight-up said she started as a Darkstalkers Fan Character. I've dreamed of Capcom outsourcing a new Darkstalkers to Future Club (or at least the Art portion,) the only way to do the old games' animations justice is either hand-drawn 2D frames, or whatever black magic ArcSys does to make 3D look like 2D.

[@Altares_V]

Cell shading and simple camera tricks. Alot of good anime CGI looks like that but good luck getting people to take their time when these studios are shytting out seasonal anime xD

[@steelblake]

@@Altares_V Bro arcsys game do way more than cell shading and simple camera angles

[@Altares_V]

@@steelblake eeeh no that's really the bulk of it you can actually tell this from the camera mods in other games where you see simple camera tricks convey the energy needed for their animations to truly flourish. I mean you know how many super sized hands there are in Dragon ball fighterz? XD Fake perspective and The camera makes their hands not appear goofy and gigantic even though the models are actually scaled up. The rest is simply time in developing the final product which most definitely appears cel shaded

[@graysonwells21]

I feel the exact same

[@georgesears934]

The amount of restraint Max showed when he didn't respond "Bruh." when someone asked if Project fucking L was a big budget game is... well, that amount of will power generally earns you a green energy ring and a spot on the Justice League.

[@o_oro-q1k]

90% of Max's twitch viewers are clueless casuals

[@michaelbread5906]

@@o_oro-q1k I'm a clueless casual. Max is entertaining. I'm being entertained. Win win.

[@DIOBrando-ij2bp]

Project L doesn’t necessarily need to be a big budget game at this moment. And I wouldn’t be too surprised if it wasn’t. Just because it’s been in development for years doesn’t mean it’s a big budget game. Atlus spends years working on games too, and that’s because they make low budget games with small teams over a long span of time. League of Legends wasn’t a big budget game when it started either. I’d be surprised if there were any fighting games with budgets that actually went into real AAA budgets. The biggest budget fighting games probably have more of a mid range budget when it comes to video games as a whole, and the others are probably small budget games.

[@SPACECOWBOY705]

@@michaelbread5906 🤣🤣... As someone who is not a casual in the FGC.... Being a casual is easily more fun, you don't wanna be part of this toxic community... Especially on twitter... They continuously hate on Max out of jealousy as well

[@infinitybelt]

Yes, I wonder how much money is being funneled into a LEAGUE OF LEGENDS fighting game 😂

[@georgesears934]

Short answer: No. Long answer: No but it fucking helps.

[@zer0stars]

Speaking of reused assets, the versus games uses the same assets as Street Fighter Alpha and Children of the Atom. They eventually just added new assets. CVS if I recall correctly has old capcom assets as well.

[@Gunblazer42]

I think a fighting game needs enough budget to be able to pop in terms of personality. I hear that MvC Infinite PLAYED well and was decently balanced...but it looked so bland, almost generic kind of. MvC3 didn't look amazing, but it had that comic book filter that made up for it not having peak graphics, since it emphasized actual style over graphics. That Nickelodeon fighting game plays well and can be a lot of fun, with nice touches in moves that reference bits of the source material...but lack of voices because of the budget killed it for a lot of people, especially when you look at what Multiversus is bringing, with full voice interactions and battle shouts. You don't need to dump a super huge amount of money to slick something up to a mirror sheen, but you do need enough to be able to give characters personality, or barring that, stages. I think, to that end, fighting games can do pretty well with an A to double-A budget. They just need to focus on having talent that knows what they're doing, and to be able to make characters not bland or generic in terms of personality.

[@Altares_V]

Nickelodeon fighting game and plays well are usually not in the same sentence. But I won't deny that it was fun for the first couple of weeks xD Also they were given an astronomically low budget compared to Multiversus so they could only do so much. You can tell some char models are more complete and reminiscent of their actual source material identities in NASB and some just look unfinished and incredibly polygonal by comparison

[@SionReaver]

@@Altares_V In fairness, Nick is a lot better then it was at the launch period.

[@MrWhis-fe5hs]

MvcI had the same budget as one season of street fighter DLC so no MVCI had a terrible budget

[@colmecolwag]

I think what you're saying pretty much is "No, they do indeed need a huge budget"

[@bluefire9285]

@@Altares_V The Nick game does play well tho? The mechanics and depth are top notch

[@notrato]

I think having good art direction can do much more for a game than just pumping infinite money to have that hyper photorealistic graphics also, I wanna see more 2D hand drawn/pixel art fighting games

[@rustedwyvern]

Max covered how much more costly 2D is at times vs photorealistic, polished content will be costly regardless due to both time and skill involved.

[@FirionDude]

I loved fighting game unlockables on the ps1/ps2 era. Having to unlock costumes, characters, stages gave a feeling of progression and accomplishment. Nowadays everything is bought. For example, Soul Calibur 3 is one of my favourite fighting games because of how much content it had besides the normal modes. Tekken 3 had the Force mode and volleyball mode. Mortal kombat had their adventure modes with a lot of easter eggs and secrets, sure they were janky, but still different and fun. I think fighting games just need more content like they used to, than just normal fighting modes.

[@AxeCrazyAutobot]

Unlockable characters won't happen because fighting games are esports focused now.

[@goranisacson2502]

Unfortunately, the only way that much content happens in these days is through BIG BEEFY BUDGETS which I don't know many, besides Nintendo and Netherrealm, who are willing to invest these days...

[@blackmanta2527]

KI is a prime example of having good decisions and talent with low budget

[@lutherheggs451]

MS also owns the property.....Some people don't seem to know what they're talking about with somethings..Power Rangers looked decent at best because the IP is worth about 2 cents.....When you want to make a game and own the IP your fine, when you want to license an IP your not only looking at a crap ton of money, but need a crap ton of time.... Capcom has mentioned that working with Marvel was a nightmare, they had to design the character, design the move set then send everything to Marvel of approval. Wait on Marvel to OK or list the changes, then make those changes and wait again....They also had to get Marvel approval to do any sort of tweaks to Marvel characters so they had to make the changes they wanted, send that to Marvel, get approval or get denied and decide from there IF they wanted to resubmit or leave it as it was.

[@AlexLoeding]

Thanks for the SkullGirls: 2nd Encore graphic on the video thumbnail! I still feel SkullGirls is severely underrated and under appreciated. I love fighting games so much. Skullgirls blew me away. It’s not on any of the top fighting game lists much of anywhere… I believe Skullgirls is one of the best designed fighting games in at least the last decade. It’s been around awhile and it’s been through a lot. It’s fans kept it alive. I just don’t think it gets the respect it deserves. I have a blast every time I play it. It’s not an easy game to learn. I’m glad it’s back in the spotlight with Evo and other tournaments! It deserves more time to shine. It just sucks waiting for all the DLC characters in season 1 pass before it comes to other platforms. I just can’t believe how much this game has struggled. It’s easily up there with the classic street fighter and darkstalker games. Others will not agree but that’s my honest opinion. I still don’t know if I like that it’s a tag fighter. I’ve come to accept it more. I’m finally now using the tag and assist with 2 or 3 characters instead of just 1 character. SkullGirls will survive for quite a while longer. It’s a shame how much this franchise has been through hell. It’s one of the best fighting games I’ve played probably since Soul Calibur 2. Just insanity! People need to jump on this game called SkullGirls: 2nd Encore!!!! I don’t think fighting games need a big budget. As long as the design of the game has quality and it doesn’t suffer in the mechanics, graphics or animations then a fighting game doesn’t need a huge budget. The NRS MK11 story modes are great but sometimes you just want to get into a match and just FIGHT! Isn’t that what fighting games are about?

[@derEdelRitter]

It’s always kinda sad to know that the old amazing 2D sprite artists are gone or moved onto different genres of games like platformers and such. Great 2D sprites in fighting games were incredibly memorable art styles.

[@kevingriffith6011]

They also nearly destroyed SNK. The script flipped a long time ago in the 2D vs 3D department, pricing wise... 2D animation is so much more expensive these days, you're paying by the frame... Not to mention that a fighting game character specifically has *so many frames of animation* compared to almost any other kind of character outside of maybe the "cinematic platformer" like uncharted where they have multiple variations of multiple animations based on exactly how you hit that ledge or did some othersuch thing. It's just far more cost-effective to use 3D these days. The ones that do opt for 2D animation have really knocked it out of the park though (Skullgirls and TFH)

[@ajch22]

@@kevingriffith6011 The main issue with SNK was the level at which KOFXII and XIII sprites were worked. Yes, they are probably the best sprite work any 2D game has ever seen, but that came at a huge cost, when in reality, you don't need that level of detail to make a good looking game. To this day there's still a quite a lot of 2D fighters, especially indie ones, which would arguably have a lower budget than someone like SNK or Capcom, I think it really comes to optimization of your budget in comparison to the quality of your product, and also to learn where to take shortcuts without compromising your vision.

[@kevingriffith6011]

@@ajch22 Oh, I agree that games like Skullgirls and Them's Fightin' Herds are both outstanding visually, but that doesn't change the fact that 3D is just cheaper to do these days than 2D, and for a lot of indie games that's probably the better way to go even if it doesn't look as good.

[@user-ue8il6jx3b]

Rivals of Aether and Skullgirls are some of the best examples of not having a triple A budget but making amazing fighting games without it.

[@coomcharger6105]

Wait skullgirls has a small budget

[@coomcharger6105]

@@Ninja-The-Red-Shinobi still God damn

[@djpegao]

@@Ninja-The-Red-Shinobi it has a budget now, when it began it was crowdfunded and pretty much lost it publisher twice.

[@darkmatter7713]

sg, tfh, and power rangers are crazy fun so to me the game play is the most important part of any game

[@Ephigy17]

If beat 'em ups are included here Streets of Rage 4 and River City Girls are some of the best games I've played in recent years.

[@Altares_V]

they are their own category because most people think of fighting games as head2head games even though the point of beat 'em ups games is to fight damn well near everything.

[@turtlehub2731]

I hate when people say for indie games: "OMG this roster is so small! It only has 20 characters! This is an outrage! ROSTER TOO SMALL -7/10" 20 is over double what some games have, and you only really need to like 1-3 (team and tag fighters) characters to get into a game.

[@SaviorGabriel]

As someone who loves having huge rosters, I can definitely get behind having a small roster that has a great cast of characters to choose from. I agree that something like 20 characters is nothing to sneeze at. It took fighting games a long ass time to even reach that point as the standard, and like you said, some games have less than that.

[@jonthebush]

I been saying this! Not just for fighting games tho, but especially for fighting games! Darkstalkers doesn’t have to be a huge budget game. Sega/Nintendo/Capcom have huge libraries of quality IPs that haven’t been touched in years that could be made with a lower budget.

[@marcosdheleno]

dont forget square. tobal is alot of fun, and has the artwork and foundation to push it through. same for dissidia.

[@AxeCrazyAutobot]

Why invest money in a failed ip when it can be used to make Street Fighter better instead? That's the real argument against any attempt at bringing Darkstalkers or really any of Capcom's old 2D fighters back. Unlike Soul Calibur* Which Bamco still drags it's feet on compared to Tekken * DS has never sold well enough to justify coexistence with Street Fighter.

[@SirGrimly]

One thing I would really like to see is a new fighting game IP... a feel like a lot of games in the genre are limited by brand recognition and it would be really cool if a dev team made a fighting game with a completely new IP dedicated to said game.

[@StarDragonJP]

New fighting games are being made every year it's just the ones that aren't attached to some big brand or company usually just fly under the radar.

[@jirehtheprovider]

So far, Hollow Knight was like the latest IP that i recogmize as new and popular. More or less as the spiritual successor to classic 2D platform castlevania series. Some of us see it as a newcomer friendly version of a souls like game (a game to warm you up for From Software's games)

[@SirGrimly]

@@jirehtheprovider Hollow Knight is not a fighting game tho...

[@Zendariel87]

There are some, probably a lot more I don't know in the indie space, but some examples: Punch planet, Rivals of Aether, Hellish Quart, Tough love arena, Them's fighting herds, Pocket Bravery is an upcoming game from an indie studio, Omen of sorrow came out in 2018, but I'm not sure if it's any good, I guess I should also count fight of gods and fight of animals. Edit: can't believe I forgot Fantasy strike. For a bigger studio this would be a bigger risk so probably not that likely to get a completely new IP from any of them. I think you would basicly need to be Capcom to have a semirealistic chance for creating a completely new IP for a fighting game, and even then it would need a big budget.

[@jirehtheprovider]

@@SirGrimly i am talking about new gaming IPs in general. not just within FGC.

[@KamiKoroshi_]

I'm just gonna go off the title and say some fighters do need to have big budget. Tekken 8, SFVI those types of games need to be big budget even if they do reuse assets.

[@mikeg4490]

I hope VF 6 gets a decent budget. Series has too much potential to take short cuts in this day and age.

[@majortom331]

Those are the same expectations that I have for a potential new VF game.

[@mikeg4490]

@@majortom331 sega can easily go the SFV route and pump out costume DLCs with their legacy IPs. Persona, SMT, Sonic, Shenmue, Super Monkey Ball, Fighting Vipers, and ect.

[@nocturnalscotsman]

@@mikeg4490 They totally could although in a future VF game it would be really cool if Sega used the opportunity to add 1 or 2 Sega reps from other games they own, since VF series was gone for sometime while games like Street Fighter have been using final fight and project justice characters or KOF basically being SNK allstars since 94, it would be interesting to see Sega do the same. My top 3 picks would be Blaze or Axel (Streets of rage) and a Yakuza rep. The cheaper method would be Ryo Hazuki since he has a mix of VF moves and some of his own moves, would probably be easier to port a few animations from other characters so long as he plays in a unique enough way. But agreed, I hope they realize the potential, being excided about the possible future of VF has been a nice feeling to have again lol

[@mikeg4490]

@@nocturnalscotsman Axl Stone, Kyru or Majima. VF should get an actual Tekken and DOA rep too. VF gameplay is timeless but it really needs to nail the marketing and hype factor

[@nocturnalscotsman]

@@mikeg4490 Oh yeah, I forgot VF characters showed up in DoA and with how friendly Harada is with VF producer Seiji Aoki, I could totally see that too, although I imaging a Tekken character might feel strange playing like a VF character XD I actually completely forgot VF & DoA both used the same engine.

[@heroicgangster9981]

To me I think AAA budget isn't the only concern especially when speaking about other Capcom fighting game IPs. It's if there is big ambition to make a fighting game the next big thing and supported like a big brand for many years to come. Honestly just sucks when something being relatively financially successful through sales doesn't really matter much anymore.

[@jldhammer5901]

Look at mortal combat it was made with programmers casting personal friends to play the characters in their game. Amazing things can be done it just requires actions on large Ideas.

[@marcosdheleno]

combat with a c? what kind of weak ass sauce is that?

[@AxeCrazyAutobot]

Mortal Kombat was made in an entirely different era.

[@DIOBrando-ij2bp]

I’m a little surprised we done have Capcom doing some 2D fighting games like Vanillaware does their 2D stuff. Vanillaware's most expensive game to date is still Dragon's Crown, which cost something like just a little over a million dollars to make. Capcom could do some nice looking hand drawn HD fighting game, and keep the budget relatively low if they really wanted to. They could have a Darkstalkers game for example that actually looks like Daigo Ikeno or Kinu Nishimura art moving around on screen. I do wonder if they'll be doing something along those lines for that Final Fight and Captain Commando remake they’ve got planned.

[@michaelwaring1028]

You, sir, get a like for mentioning Vanillaware. Easily the most beautiful art style in the history of the industry. That studio needs way more love.

[@IkeSan]

I just find really weird how Skullgirls is praised by the artstyle but when something like KOF 12 was released it was criticized by the artstyle when it was really cool looking but lacking in other departments.

[@djpegao]

Because KOF 12 was pretty much a beta that never was finished and was sold like a complete game; had the game been completed it would have been another story

[@IkeSan]

@@djpegao I am talking about the artstyle not the game's content.

[@000mjd]

Time's context, in that age games were so much in the "realístic" 3D HD, that was the hot thing at that time, meanwhile SNK tried to do their own thing with XII, plus the lack of content and online fuctions wasnt helping and all

[@theotherjared9824]

Fighting games are inherently budget-friendly, particularly in the early days when their was a versus mode and not much else. Even the most fine tuned coding and gameplay mechanics ever made is a drop in the bucket compared to things like artwork, animations, sub-modes, licensing if necessary, etc.

[@bruhder5854]

Not really budget friendly when the total cost via the shittons of dlcs end up going above 100 bucks a lot of the times...

[@theotherjared9824]

@@bruhder5854 I'm not talking about your budget. I'm talking about the company's budget to make the game.

[@fernandobanda5734]

Fighting games are not budget friendly. They always have minimal features BECAUSE doing so much animation for an entire roster is crazy.

[@Altares_V]

what... fighting games of the days of yore had to have a myriad of features to keep player interests. You know how ham some of these fighting game's went with intro cutscenes alone? as well as a plethora of single player content because back then Online head2head wasn't the main focus of a fighting game. Getting them into and out of arcades were.

[@fernandobanda5734]

@@Altares_V I don't even know what "back then" you are referring to, but fighting games with more than arcade mode are already outside the norm.

[@RushValentine]

Regardless of budget, just make the game fun to play for me is enough.

[@bbreimm]

MvC:I would like to disagree.

[@VoidEternal]

I don't really know what classifies as a "AAA Fighting Game". Even after SFV, I honestly don't know what a AAA Fighting Game is supposed to LOOK like, because most of them releasing nowadays are starved of content, characters and features at launch and they only seem like they become "AAA Fighting Games" after at least two more years post-launch.

[@Neoxon619]

The big dogs like Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat/Tekken/Smash, probably. But as you said, they don't need to break the bank on everything.

[@Fco2k7]

2:46 Not really. It's possible that SCVI and Tekken 7 shared assets, but if you talk about projects prior to these games, the jump to Unreal Engine was new and those assets had to be made almost from scratch. The only thing that was inherited was the mechanics of previous games. In words of Mr. Harada, Tekken 7 was developed using a framework that works with 2 layers: the visual part (which can now be replaced by any other engine) and the part that moves that visual part, let's call it "the mechanic rules layer" . This last one I think was already iterating from previous Tekken titles. They don't need a huge budget, but they definitely need budget approval. If the budget is not approved, the game or the feature is not developed and that's what a lot of people end up saying that the developers are lazy when they don't develop what consumers want. Many people don't understand how the real world works.

[@kamenrangerzeo8251]

I think the only time you need a really huge budget for a fighting game is if your game will have better graphics, improved fighting mechanics and a huge load of preferably fan-favorite characters and maybe some guest characters to fill your roster. Outside of that though not really because if you look at certain fighting games that were made by indie game studios they're actually very fun and thought-out. ex: Skull-girls, Power Rangers: BFTG, Brawlhalla, and Mulitverses

[@marcosdheleno]

i would argue that the most cost in a fighting game isnt even the graphics or the programing, but the balance, that needs to be just perfect to make it succeed.

[@Iyokuu]

Truly wish more of the FGC actually understood and held this mentality regarding good games. Skullgirls is the perfect example of something that appeases so many peoples “problems” with FGs, but they won’t actually play it. It’s weird.

[@chaffXgrenade]

Oh geez, I *completely* forgot about Them's Fightin' Herds

[@lightup6751]

Lets be absolutely honest. This whole trend to blame devs and video game companies goes both ways. Its also undeniable that the new generation of playerbase has become the most complaining and self entitled there is. There is studios messing up. But theres also players that just look to hate. Gotta stay true. Max knows that as well.

[@theotherjared9824]

It's very easy to cause a death spiral of devs and fans refusing to listen to each other because they believe they are right and the other side is wrong. Many games have fallen apart due to devs refusing to listen to genuine criticism and ruining what could have been something great. An equal amount of games fell apart because the players wanted it to fail and never gave it a chance to succeed.

[@guynamedrick4419]

And most devs have gotten horrendous.

[@lightup6751]

@@guynamedrick4419 thats not true. this is exactly the mind set that ruins any chance of a dialogue. by blindly pointing fingers and lumping devs together you are actually setting yourself up to be consistently upset and bitter.

[@lightup6751]

@@theotherjared9824 absolutely agree. thats right on the money. there is unreasonable people on both sides that ruin the gaming experience for everyone else on both sides. but I cant help to think the folks whining on the player base side are either teenagers or kids in their early 20s that grew up on social media and hate on video game, movies and music because its a trend hate and they seek approval of strangers by complaining about any media that has a lot of attention.

[@guynamedrick4419]

@@lightup6751 Mostly what I was thinking of was rushing games unfinished content and buggy messes not all are bad tho

[@TheMightyMRP]

I don't understand why Persona 4 Arena Ultimax failed... it's got great art style, great music and very fun characters. And an extensive story mode. What else do you need? How is a fighting game with animals more popular than P4AU???

[@bensonchin5091]

No roll back.

[@PredictableEnigma]

P4AU did great in arcades. But no rollback

[@d-extra5814]

Nope I play games that are fun regardless of the budget and visuals. People put way too much focus on a games looking like movies or super ultra graphical power houses

[@AdventureTime4MVS]

Like honestly!! Like why do people still smash fans still play melee? Because the game is FUN, the visuals aren't great compared to game standards nowadays but people stick around because the game is actually fun to play

[@blackmanta2527]

@@AdventureTime4MVS Platform fighters doesn't really need good graphics for how small the characters are on screen

[@LowellLucasJr.]

The budget doesn't have to be extravagant. Just make it look good with great features. Don't reuse sprites for years like some of the KOF titles, but Don't do what KOF 12 did where we do get great sprites but at the cost of basic game features. There's a balance and a way to have your cake and eat it too!

[@Altares_V]

that is unfortunately not how it usually works though you can't have your cake and eat it too because that saying comes up ringing true more in life than your fantastical version of it. Like I like strive but that lobby system is absolutely whack. They spent too much effort on something so dysfunctional but they wanted it so they put it in the game and didn't have enough time (or money) to overhaul it or change it entirely.

[@LowellLucasJr.]

@@Altares_V I get what you mean; im just stating make a game a game. Give it fun 1 player options as well as something multiplayer. Make it look good but don't rehash visuals to the point of scrutiny. Just give it some heart. ❤ So long as a game does that, it'll be great. 1 such example, Cap vs SNK 2. We got training, survival, custom colors, custom grooves, replay battle options and you can earn characters. Very satisfying package.

[@AxeCrazyAutobot]

When sprites don't get reused you end up with KOF XIII which bankrupted SNK and nearly killed them. There's a very good reason KOF, SamSho and Guilty Gear all went 3D.

[@Android-Twenty-One]

@@AxeCrazyAutobot But KOF XIII reused sprites from KOF XII

[@orlanzo2621]

@@Android-Twenty-One But they still had to make a lot of completely new sprites too. And with each character taking a vast amount of time and resources to make, that’s a lot of money.

[@edpistemic]

Preach, Max! It's so sad that tons of great stuff gets ignored for decades at a time.

[@MythicMachina]

One of my biggest problems with modern fighting games is how most of then just have no single player/side content. Sure the main point of these games is the multiplayer, but a good single player can be super memorable. Look at every Smash game, or Soul Calibur 2 for examples. Hell, even Skullgirls has a pretry decent Story Mode. If a game has a smaller budget, I would give it the benefit of the doubt.

[@Doogie2110]

Truly off topic but always love to hear Light Plane Vocal Mix

[@fireguard743]

As someone who wants to make a game of the genre, this is good to hear. I just want to make a unique game. Possibly more. As someone who is huge in concept art and things, I really want to make things. And if anyone asks, I look for a 2v2 tag fighter... with many crazy things. Either MVCI or BBTAG.

[@sweatyhands6600]

Gaming would be sick if everyone just made A and AA games lol. Cheaper to make, faster to produce, and less risks in cases of failure

[@rufati]

We need a new 2.5D Pocket Fighter that just pulls characters from all the franchises.

[@guigondi7671]

ok But what about Fighting games like Pocket Bravery? Small indiefighting games that have no legacy? What chance do they have, not even in competing with others, but doing well enough profit-wise in such a crowded market?

[@ZarelidT]

Yes fighting games need a triple A brand. If not they will be over looked. Look at SFVs release. No one cared about anything but the title. Look how far it’s come. Without covid think skullgirls woulda gotten another update? NOPE!

[@rattypumpkin6183]

A Skullgirls style Darkstalkers would be perfect. The original Darkstalkers games had so much personality and expressiveness in the animation directly inspired by classic cartoons (the developers specifically cited Tom & Jerry I believe) that IMO has never translated very well into 3D models when some of the characters have showed up in other games. It would just be too expensive to pull off all the extreme distortions and such in modern 3D graphics. But Capcom could make a huge ROI with a new 2D Darkstalkers.

[@cosmicspider2]

Of course they need a big budget. 1st impressions matter and the last thing people wanna see is shit that looks like it should've been released 2 or 3 generations ago. And the lack of content we've been getting out these games as of late doesn't help either. Either go hard/big or go home.

[@AxeCrazyAutobot]

On the flipside a small budget means the game doesn't have to move a million copies to be successful. It's how SNK and ASW keep surviving.

[@cosmicspider2]

@@AxeCrazyAutobot By their standards sure. But that isn't saying much in the grand scheme of things. Congrats you've upgraded from a puddle to a pond.

[@AxeCrazyAutobot]

@@cosmicspider2 I'm just saying. I mean SNK blowing the bank on KOF 12-13 bankrupted and nearly killed them they're in a much better position now with more moderate budgets.

[@jorge86rodriguez]

they don't need a big budget to have a niche success, but they need one to breach into mainstream audience. With more more of the budget on marketing and constant updates

[@SuperPerfectFGC]

for me personally, the only thing that matters for the presentation is that the animations have "believable" body mechanics. Like centering their weight on kicks, and not ignoring legs on punches

[@Revstarallstar]

Ngl. I get it. But it would be nice and have a bigger community if that power rangers game was looking really really good bcus of the budget. Have more than 7 stages something cool. Alot could be done but it can help. Let me fucking tell you power rangers fans are alive and well. And thats all it needed. We just want a pr game. But thats all we got. It was a desired product even before the game was made

[@starwaypathmaker6817]

This is one of my best quotes use it well. "You need to make a wave before you make an ocean." joels pisces quote.

[@Wilkins325]

Whats the background music? Pretty catchy

[@killertoadstools]

Don't know if you're still wondering, but it's the Light Plane Vocal Mix from Smash 4. :)

[@Wilkins325]

@@killertoadstools thanks so much

[@ivansotelo4622]

I just hope Nick all Stars could get enough money to get the power rangers treatment for the rest of it's lifestyle

[@AdventureTime4MVS]

I firmly believe they will! the developers are clearly passionate about nicktoons it's just all about nick calling the final shots with sales I feel like with a bit more of a budget and TIME that the game can become more solid for everyone else

[@ivansotelo4622]

@@AdventureTime4MVSThanks for sharing your thoughts, I hope it does! i'd wish everyone did their own platform fighter, a little bit of innovation and competition would be great for the genre, so a better standard for features is set for everyone

[@SilkyLew]

That game look pretty weak

[@scorpion6726]

that game is maybeee in psplus juni 🤞 (i hope so)

[@masterdhegamer6661]

That's something I'm rooting for as well. The devs have been pretty clear about the restrictions they were working on, and it's very easy to see the foundations of a good fighting game in the package as it is. Hope the character passes are sucessful enough to make this happen.

[@rolvirata9003]

I imagine BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle was a AA game with all the sprite reuse. The only new sprites were the RWBY characters. I have a blast with it.

[@pockystyx4087]

That MH Rise and Wold comparison is how I feel about it.

[@lastpringle8904]

For me as long as the fighting is fun and easy to grasp, but challenging to really master, then it's something I'll play

[@AgentBurgers]

This one should be label Real Talk ;)

[@CelticAdobo]

Definitely talent a passion is the most important thing. Like look at Akatsuki Blitzkampf, it was a passion project that was a freeware game, but it was crammed full of good mechanics you’d swear it was made by one of the bigger fighting game producers.

[@ReikuYin]

Effort matter more then budget. Budget just allows for more effort as you can put more into it. But you can pour as much money into a game, and it be terrible cause no passion or effort into it.. Well what's that saying? "You can polish a turd till it has a mirror sheen, it's STILL a turd." Street fighter alpha 3 gold or whatever it was, was amazing even tho it was a release with a few pulled charters from other games. Why? FEATURES! Game had SO many modes and ways to play. LOTS to do. People just want stuff to do in games/worlds they love.

[@Dookygames]

That's why i feel that mk11 was so disappointing. The roster was great, stages beautiful, gore super detailed but man were the mechanics lacking. They clearly devoted their budget to the aesthetics and just kinda did whatever they thought would look cool with the game mechanics. AAA budget but man is the game broken. Some of these companies let their huge budget get in the way of making a balanced fighting game and just get passed by lower budget but more competitive titles.

[@T769-r8s]

What specific mechanics did you feel were lacking?

[@Dookygames]

@@T769-r8s I don't think the meter system is very good at all. Makes the game almost completely rock paper scissors sometimes. Then there's some characters that are just so lacking. Johnny Cage for instance has no overheads to really utilize besides the generic ones.

[@champloo9058]

What is the background music?😂

[@killertoadstools]

Don't know if you're still wondering, but it's the Light Plane Vocal Mix from Smash 4

[@kaoko111]

Budget helps so far mostly in technicalities like graphics, sound, a Big ass score, cinematics, the scale of the Game... Stuff like that but at the core, all the money in the world won't fix Bad mechanics, boring gameplay, sloppy controls and so on. You don't need millions to make a good Game anymore, You need to do good fun engaging gameplay, if You have that, the rest likely will come easier.

[@maa7895]

I agree with most of the points. Just need the right choices at the right moment.

[@glitchz1]

whats the background music?

[@tipnsunny2107]

A new fighting game will sell well if it looks fantastic. And it will stay around if the gameplay and functionality works well. Budget does matter.

[@GearOFFBlack]

When Max saying recycle asset, I imagine game like BBTAG. This game use old asset and new asset and have many rooster of character. I hope, many dev brave enough to use this re-use asset for their game!

[@EonWhite]

Yo, is that Skullgirls in the thumbnail? Sweet!

[@Uaitdevil]

a good idea for capcom and namco would be bringing namcoXcapcom and projectXzone into a smash-like game, or even a 2d fighting game, i mean, all 3 games still looks good, i'd say just keep it that style, reuse stuff and go ham.

[@flamuralaj3302]

Star Gladiator could be Capcom's AA fighter.

[@bigrubberfist2945]

Yeah budget is kind of a big deal for fighting games. Power Rangers battle for the grid is a good example, I really like that game but 1st impressions matter and that game was a buggy mobile game on release with barely any characters with a weird line up with Lord Drakkon. Luckily it's held up but if that game got a better budget I guarantee you we would have seen Ryu and Chun Li a season or two sooner

[@thekittenfreakify]

What fighters need is a good single player mode. Good training tools. And decent gfx. That is it.

[@pampamtamtam4001]

What is the background track playing at the beginning? I know it I just forgot where it came from.

[@SidneyMosley]

Man Fighting EX Layer was really good too...

[@hugejackedman3447]

All product we purchase no matter what form - vacuum cleaner; laptop; couch; - needs to be worth the asking price. And since videogames are already expensive as hell they need to always be top tier quality for the value. No more paying $60 to get bored 3 weeks later and leave it to collect dust on my shelf.

[@BraindeadMH]

Max, could you play through the Bloody Roar series? I wish they would come back

[@tchitchouan]

yes they do need budget, talent and passion.

[@PurpleTurtle-t4q]

I don't know if it's from the stream of added for the video, but the BG song is way too loud

[@mrcwillis6970]

It’s not always about the money 💰

[@thejedioutcast804]

Of course they don't need a huge budget, they have never needed one, even the biggest franchises going back to the 90's didn't have much of a budget, but at least had more of a budget than lets say Power Rangers or Fighting EX Layer obviously. Granted, fighting games DO need some sort of an actual budget or at the very least need some good past assets they can take from older games. SF Alpha, Alpha 2 and Alpha 3 took assets from each other, KOF13 also took assets from KOF12. Heck, MVC2 is the king of asset reuse and was also made in less than 6 months. But if you are a new IP, returning old niche IP (garou 2 for example) then you definitely need some type of visual fidelity or insane art direction (skull girls is still healthy till this day despite scandals and being released in 2012) or else your game will get the power ranger treatment and it will become a game people praise like crazy but no one plays cause it looks like a low budget game. (19 players on steam currently, it probably does have a-bit more due to crossplay to be fair, but still) People swear MVCI gameplay is amazing (I love it though) but they are really just regurgitating what Max and other people in Twitch chat and Discord say about said gameplay and haven't actually played the game themselves, or haven't played the game much if they did play it. Yes MVCI's issues go well beyond it's graphics, but graphics from what I have seen is the first thing people bring up, especially zoomers who are spoiled by a game like let's say Strive, with that game being as gorgeous as it is. People say they don't care about graphics but in actuality most people do, more than gameplay but they won't admit it. But to be fair fighting game players are also the type to go back and play old FG's and also appreciate old sprites and fightcade is booming more than ever, so I'm not saying everyone cares, I'm just saying mostly casuals care about graphics and presentation. They bought Strive for that alone and casuals are the majority. Even semi casuals who frequent fighting game discords to talk about FG's more than they actually play them care about graphics more than gameplay. lol

[@thejedioutcast804]

@@shen-long9082 Yes, spitting facts for an entire 2 paragraphs gets exhausting for me.

[@infinitybelt]

Not every fighting game needs a big budget, but it does need a budget. There are certain things a fighting game needs to get popular and grow a fanbase, but the most important thing is visuals. I get it, most would say gameplay is king, but to a casual (the majority of consumers) audience, they just want a game with cool characters that can do cool moves and look cool doing it. You don't always need MK levels of fidelity to have a success story, but there is a reason MK stands and one of the most successful franchises out there. Games like Marvel Infinite and Nickolodean Smash are prime examples of this. Sure, they are great in the mechanical sense, but their presentation leaves a lot to be desired and that hurts the chance of mass appeal despite source material.

[@TheParadoxCreator]

A simple, clean, fresh art style that is done well can look amazing despite not matching "AAA" graphic intensity. A game that finds its artistic identity and its gameplay identity and makes those two mesh well with each other puts itself in the best position to succeed.

[@GurenDarius]

I would like to see max play more skullgirls its getting crazy this year!

[@testertree4545]

I’ve been working on a Rick and Morty fighting fan game. Not very far yet but it’s been fun to work on

[@arcadejunki9313]

I definitely agree if the art style is fresh and cool liking, it doesn’t need to be insane looking graphically. BUT as for a Capcom vs Capcom game, I would want it with a triple A budget cuz that franchise could last forever along side street fighter as their flag ship fighting game. You will never run out if characters to put and especially with sequels to other games and new IP’s to add more. I think also for double A games like a new rival schools or darkstalkers that free to play would help it a lot.

[@seanchan4478]

Battle for the grid has been my favorite fighting game since ultimate marvel 3.

[@SkyTowerKurogane]

I don't know, even if we are talking artstyle and lesser graphical fidelity, I think there still needs a proper budget to be good. The graphical part is only a fraction of the fund sink.

[@vincentsun886]

they can make a monster hunter fighting game where we can fight each other using monsters

[@ColtEagle77]

WOOHOO, LET'S GO SKULLGIRLS

[@LamunesADV]

Project L is probably very expensive to make, more than current SF5 had put on. If it could run in a potato especially. It took a big budget to make an stylized, who looks decent to good, Free to Play game with a whole shit of mechanics and characters. And knowing how Riot is (despite balance issues) the game will recieve patch after patch after patch, with new characters and shit, for AT LEAST 5 years, even if the game is a total flop.

[@VikingWarlord]

I feel like the Shaolin Vs. Wutang game series is relevant to this topic. I think it deserves more praise for what it is. Max have you ever given this series a play?

[@CrimsoniteSP]

Honestly, all a fighting game needs is a clear vision to see what's going on, be fun and give content. If it can do those 3 things, people will jump on board. Even some of the worst looking fighting games have dedicated playerbases because of how fun the game is and how much there is to do.

[@micshork]

I’d love to know how much of the budgets NRS games are.

[@taco_sensei]

WB level. Huge.

[@micshork]

@@taco_sensei That doesn't answer my question. I want specifics.

[@metalgeartrusty]

Every fighting game without a giant marketing strategy and huge animation budget doesnt get played. People rather rage-play sf or tekken than try sg or power rangers:bftg. People who risk themselves on smaller budget games in the already niche fgc, are absolutely some of the most passionate ppl on the planet, like the mane 6 guys. Truth is, we want fighting games to be free, so every gamer tries them, and then the real ones will stay. Project L WILL be played, precisely cuz of how big it is. Big refers to the money, number of skilled developers and time spent in development. We need bigger culture shifts, and fexl aint gonna do it. Im just tired of people saying they love small budget games and games need to prioritize “fun”. Reality is the game populations need to be bigger for player experience, so people dont have to find matches through discord. There are more people playing modern warfare on ps3 then there are most fighting games. Sc6 went down 85% in price on steam, and the game population went from 200 to 800 for 2 weeks, i could actually get matches in ranked. Hopefully this and project l will reinforce to bandai that they need to increase the value of these packages, or lower the price. (Also, i wish i knew why the population went back down to 200 after a couple weeks.) Play the games you love, pce.

[@ThatRandumStuff]

What song is playing in the background?

[@mohapimatle7734]

I'm also wondering the same question. Hopefully somebody knows.

[@roachdoggjr7020]

@@mohapimatle7734 me too i wanna know

[@killertoadstools]

Don't know if you're still wondering, but it's the Light Plane Vocal Mix from Smash 4

[@ThatRandumStuff]

@@killertoadstools bro thank you so much, I was going through Persona ost hoping to find it as it sounded so similar

[@sircombat3259]

I agree, I mean you guys should try out Battle Craze, it’s a ikeman game that has a lot of effort out into its craft, it has a lot of characters (with 3 different variants). And even has voice lines. The game’s pretty underrated.

[@Mene0]

What song is playing in the background? Sounds like Persona 4 to me, but idk

[@cipherzx1]

All games (not just fighting games) just need a reasonable budget depending on what the devs are going for. Think of the combination of graphics, which platforms the game will be on, number of features, updates/support, etc. But at the end of the day, even if there is a large budget put into a game, it doesn't matter if it's bad.