Do routers affect audio quality when streaming?

[@dmitriy2853]

Paul surprised me, and I think a lot of people.

[@xcvbxcvb2179]

If PS Audio produced routers the answer would be a tiny bit different 😊

[@lexicon612]

This is an understood industry fact, not an opinion thing. The answer would be the same, today tomorrow or next year. All 16 of you are just ridiculous. As Paul has stated in the past..."Hope this brings you joy"

[@DrTune]

When listening to "Kind of Blue" this morning with a coffee (and a fine cigar - sue me) I noticed a distinct tonal imbalance I'd never heard before - I can best describe it as a lack of browns and greens in the soundstage. After much investigation and experimentation (and a glass or two of a fine single malt - sue me again), I realized the cleaning lady had _swapped_ the ethernet cords (I prefer Platinum Starlight 8) into my ethernet switch (!) my DAC was connected to - I'm ashamed to say it - the leftmost LAN port - the one nearest the window. I was a little shocked; after a snifter of port to steady my nerves (and a bump of Fine Colombian - sue my dealer) with shaking hands I replaced the RJ45 in its rightful place in the _rightmost_ port - shadowed from the direct sunlight that was ruining the sound - and... perfect audio equilibrium was restored. Time for nap before lunch, I say. Cheers!

[@wngimageanddesign9546]

Fire the wench!

[@ThinkingBetter]

LOL, that sunlight might impact the 1s and 0s hahaha

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

As we all know, browns and greens are the upper bass and midrange, which in your case seemed to be a little deficient. Turn the sub down a click 🤣🤣j/k glad you solved it.

[@Roosville1]

Quote "I realized the _cleaning lady_ had swapped the ethernet cords", hillarious. :- ) More wine please !

[@danijel-c]

Understandably. You don't hear well. Don't blame yourself for that. It is not your fault.

[@D800Lover]

It's data, just raw data. Only when it gets processed by your system does it get clocked and once that happens, yes then it really matters. Paul is absolutely right! Clocking and subsequent processing, that is what matters. Oops, I think I just repeated myself, but for good emphasis.

[@cunawarit]

Well said, Paul. That's exactly it, bits are bits.

[@Alamo-cz5xc]

shut up

[@adrianadrianp5305]

Yes they are but noise is noise and as soon as you stream you are dealing with voltages trying to be square waves and timed perfectly with a GND that doesn't move at all. Apart from transferring across fibre (after it's coveted to light and back again). But your right bits are bits, Bits hare not 'square waves' voltages travelling in analogue circuits though

[@andreasbock3057]

😂

[@deanfisher1656]

I bought a 50.00 powered splitter to do an AB test with a new streamer I was considering. The improvement in my current streamer was significant enough to cause me to not change……my Ethernet run was 75 ft and I believe that was the difference of having a splitter at the source with .5 meter cable to complete the connection. I think it is contingent on distance from your router.

[@bwiz6514]

I have a solid cocobolo wood router sitting on a suspended plank of aerogel. Dead quiet, inky black backgrounds, micro decay that a lichen would die for.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@bwiz6514 Don’t forget to use carbon fiber based cable lifters on your golden Ethernet cables 😊

[@rangerrecon]

I keep hearing cocobolo wood is the way to go for routers, but I'm concerned about sonic resonance - particularly at lower bass frequency. That's why I went with a D-Link Macassar Ebony router.

[@sirleeofroy4732]

@@rangerrecon 🤣

[@rangerrecon]

@@sirleeofroy4732 It is good to know that we don't take this too seriously.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@rangerrecon Just never forget golden Ethernet cables and carbon fiber cable lifters. Golden 1s and 0s just sound so much better totally opening up the soundstage and refining the very details from a resolving system. They even help making online investments more profitable if you use this trick for your PC also.

[@randomtube8226]

The service has to go through a modem first before the router. Nothing beats a quality wired connection. Our airways are a noisy place. With all the various wireless technologies and traffic. I tested to see if a cheap poorly shielded interconnect cable would detect noise from my router. Sure enough it did. I will say it was pretty close to the antennas though. That's why I recommend spacing and running your cables as neatly as possible and going with the shortest cables you can get away with. While leaving enough room to space each component in your system too. This helps with heat dissipation too.

[@Steve_Blue_Oyster_Cult]

I've had tube preamps pick up the the signals from the router. If the router was within three or four feet from the preamps and turning the volume up high when there is no music playing but can hear the data signals. With the router eight or more feet away I have not this problem. So if it's getting through the preamps then yes it would have to effect the quality of the music.

[@timd5365]

Maybe your preamp has issues?

[@pobodyisnerfect]

My Bottlehead Crack headphone amp picks up mobile phone signals and interference if my phone is too close to it. Haven't tried placing it near my router though.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@timd5365 Correct, it’s an EMI sensitivity problem in the preamp possibly lack of shielding. You can’t blame streaming for that lol

[@revo1336]

Had to move the router away from my tube pre- amp to stop sputtering noise.

[@SpyderTracks]

I think people may be getting confused with a router and a wireless router, 2 very different things. A router cannot affect things in this way. A WiFi router could, but any audiophile would always have their WiFi config split from the router anyway

[@janinapalmer8368]

Actually, to be sincerely honest in my humble opinion, without being sentimental and of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, and without lies to the actual truth, with my clear open mind and clean heart, expressing what ever is embedded inside me for a long time which I didn't say because I was nervous. But today by gathering all the courage and motivation, I just want to say that I actually feel and think that I have absolutely nothing to say..... Paul said it all 😃

[@ThinkingBetter]

In my teens you could buy a ZX-80 home computer and if I received your message on that one, it would run out of memory 🤔

[@sean_heisler]

Paul left the door open here and that’s in regard to power. I have a cheap $20 ethernet switch after my router which the Ethernet cable plugs into from my streamer. I purchased a Topping linear power supply for my Zen Stream streamer and did not like the sonic effect on it but before sending it back I checked the voltage of the wall wart power supply for my Ethernet switch and it was a match to the Topping. I thought what heck, I replaced the cheap stock power supply the switch came with, with the topping and BAM! Definitely made a difference in the audio quality for the better hands down. And there it sits, $130 linear power supply feeding a $20 switch.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@sean_heisler If your DAC has poorly designed isolation and filtering from power supply noise causing the analog output stage to misbehave, you are right that you have a problem to fix, but I would have thrown out such garbage DAC cause whoever engineered it must have failed in doing proper design. Or, perhaps a very high ripple noisy switch mode power supply could also be a problem and maybe that was your case, but what the heck does that have to do with streaming? It is entirely a problem of the components you purchased having flaws in them. A transport with a noisy power supply connected via I2S could also potentially create a problem in your DAC but you wouldn’t say transports as a category of source are to blame.

[@EricRhodeslives]

​@@ThinkingBetter you can't blame the dac. He's right. Improving power supplies helps. Always.

[@nicktaylor7680]

Noisy switch mode power supplies have nothing to do with "ones and zeros". I replaced all the cheap power supplies on my router and switches and PC with linear ones and it made a big difference.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@ Absolutely I can blame the DAC if it’s sensitive to ripple on the power supply. A good DAC has extra isolation, voltage regulation and filtering to ensure the analog output stage does not get affected by ripple, below 1%, of any frequency on the input DC voltage, if it’s using external DC power. Actually this is a very basic electronics subject that all of us who have taken an engineering degree know about intimately. If you measure the ripple on the power supply under load and, for example, it has 3% ripple noise even in ultrasonic frequencies, I will blame the power supply.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@nicktaylor7680 It’s not a streaming issue for sure and if your DAC needs very clean power, you can still argue that it is poorly designed to keep the noise away from the analog output stage within it. If I use an oscilloscope I would be able to correctly point the finger at who is to blame. Good DACs can do excellent SINAD numbers above 110dB even with their standard power supply.

[@bayard1332]

I ended up doing a fair bit of testing on this topic. In my systems I found different commercial switches sound different (only 1 of the 3 brands I tried was acceptable) and I found at the end of the day modem-cat 7 cable-router-cat7 cable- switch- audio world ethernet cable- streamer (computer in my case) sounded considerably better than no switch or via wifi. The differences were not trivial.

[@meindertsprang7491]

If they sound differently, the routers must somehow change bits. And if they did that, you wouldn't even be able to view this video or read the comments here. It cannot be jitter because Ethernet clock is unrelated to DAC clocks.

[@bayard1332]

@@meindertsprang7491 That is technically completely not true.

[@meindertsprang7491]

@@bayard1332 what exactly isn't true about what I said? Every Ethernet frame has a checksum that is checked by any receiver. As soon as one bit changes, the checksum recalculated by the receiver no longer matches that of the received frame, so the frame is rejected.

[@sdgelectronics]

​@@meindertsprang7491 correct. The audio clocking is done at the streamer. Before that the data packets are buffered sections of encoded audio

[@rlwings]

My Qobuz on a high level system is crystal clear and beautiful. Router, WiFi, etc. Can't imagine better sound, and I don't care, I'm happy. (There may be a little Dirac involved too, lol.)

[@hoobsgroove]

I hear some people say they use the ifi power supply with the router and it makes a difference. I suppose if you got cleaner power it makes sense

[@timd5365]

funny how iFi sells a power supply instead of giving it to you with all their products...

[@hoobsgroove]

@timd5365 well they do when they sell their products, this is meant to be used with other people's products.

[@timd5365]

@hoobsgroove wrong, iFi products come with everyday 5v Walmarts, then they try to get you to buy a "real" power supply to eliminate the "Noise" they say exists...

[@1922peter]

Or it may simply be less junk fed back into the power that feeds the rest of your system?

[@kristofvadnai]

I used a 5v Ifi Ipower with small switches and it improves on them aswell. I have a 12v switch now, which I upgraded with a somewhat customised Microsoft (most likely Xbox) power supply. They are really decent.

[@brianmurphree189]

Being a network engineer for over 25 years, Paul is correct that the router makes no difference in audio quality. This is because the player, such as Tidal and Qobuz downloads the audio as files and buffers the playback. The actual "streaming" process occurs between the player application and your output.

[@BeeskneesBen]

Router maybe not, but a quality Network switch close to your audio system will (reclock) make an improvement in a high level system. ie Nordost QRT QNET or similar with AirLense, Stella DAC, Moon 700v2, Wilson Watt/Puppy V definite improvement to sound stage & detail

[@KarlHamilton]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@jaakanshorter]

Network switches don't relock the audio data inside the packet at all. The data inside of the packet should not be changing if it has something very very wrong. Only the headers of the packet change moving from say a router to switch or switch to switch. The difference you are hear if any is how well your DAC's input signal is isolated, grounded, and powered. Ie noisy connection, ground loop, under powered etc... same with your pre-amp and power amp.

[@rangerrecon]

Ethernet data transmission doesn't require precise or synchronized clocks. In fact, ethernet doesn't even require the data packets be sent in the correct order. Ethernet is amazingly resilent, especially when using streaming-friendly transport protocols like UDP. Packets can get jumbled in their sequence, they can be resent if their checksum doesn't verify, clocking frequencies between equipment doesn't need to match, speed/capacity doesn't need to match between devices (e.g. a 10 Mbps device can operate on a gigabit network), etc. There is no audio/analog component in this data chain. I really wish manufacturers would stop selling snake oil, but then it wouldn't be the audiophile industry without some snake oil.

[@meindertsprang7491]

EVERY single switch reclocks the received data when transmitting it again. No audiophile grade switch will be able to improve that. Apart from that, the Ethernet clock is totally unrelated to the DAC clock. Packets are received, buffered and then fed to the DAC which has its own clock. And only the DAC clock determines the sound quality.

[@nigelmorse3909]

I sometimes listen to music on my hearing aids. The signal enters my home by fiber optic, is converted to wifi by router, then converted to Bluetooth by my phone then on to my hearing aids then on to my Mk1 brain. It sounds great 😊

[@rangerrecon]

I never understood the obcession of audiophiles chasing the whole ethernet chain, trying to improve it with special switches, routers, cables, etc. They seem obsessed with trying to say that the signal is analog, so they can apply analog attributes to it to justify expensive gear to "filter it." Paul is 100% correct here. Unless you have considerable electrical noise coming into your streamer from the ethernet connection, then there is no reason for special ethernet equipment. Ethernet offers galvanic isolation by design, but if you really believed that noise was making it's way into the stream from the ethernet connection (the noise would be present all of the time the connection is made - not just when streaming), you could use some type of intrinsically safe decoupler, but that seems extremely unlikely. You would have to have so much noise that the ethernet chip in the streamer likely wouldn't be able to process the signal anyway to decode the IP data packets. My favorite is when I hear audiophiles talk about adding hundreds of hours of burn-in to their ethernet cable and how it "improves the sounds stage" or "expands the dynamic range", etc. It is a digital signal people - that's it. Thank you Paul/PS Audio for some common sense advice. BTW - I love the PR5 speakers and hope to add those to my collection soon.

[@shomesaha]

So is the power ..it's generated in a station that miles away and transmitted by ordinary cables...so why does power cables or regenerators matter?

[@comegetsomedude]

It doesn’t. It’s snake oil. The best way to eliminate any interference is to just run dedicated circuits for your stereo. Your power won’t get any cleaner than that. The power cord making a difference is laughable

[@hifirulezzz]

The only thing which makes difference is a your streaming service greed. I frequently observe that the same album which yesterday was playing in 24/96 today may be playing 16/44, which MAKES difference. I suppose they balance servers load and limit bitrate during high usage hours. I did not mention any other difference, neither between streaming services neither with the internet providers.

[@reasoned007]

how does galvanic isolation decide to pass through good data (music) but eliminate bad data (noise)?

[@Douglas_Blake]

The only thing it actually isolates is noise on the grounds in the device.

[@teknorob633]

Galvanic Isolation is designed to stop low frequency ‘mains’ frequency interference and DC voltages, but has no benefit for removing RFI noise.

[@Douglas_Blake]

Galvanic works by isolating the grounds between sections of a device. Data is passed either by induction (transformers) or optical couplers so there is no electrical connection between sections. Mostly it's not needed, but it sells a lot of DACs.

[@jefftrimm7806]

Audiophile routers/switches have advanced filters for noise which can impact your streamer. The difference is audible and repeatable.

[@haseman]

Or just use fiber 👍

[@biketech60]

A refreshing breath of fresh air . You can connect with an ethernet cable sold for $2800.00 for 1.5 Meter length . Shunyata brand

[@jimhines5145]

I am offering for sale now, audiophile network routers. Just $30 grand for a modified Netgear R7800. :D I love these bits. Tech support call: "Your router doesn't sound any better". Answer: "Your Internet must be crappy then". lol

[@SteveD-m6z]

Domestic routers contain an RF transceiver for Wi-Fi (WLAN 802.11 b/g/n 2400 to 2570MHz and WLAN 802.11 a/n 5100 to 5800MHz). The external cables attached to the audio equipment are exposed to these electromagnetic fields and can act as an antenna. If an RF current is injected to the circuitry this can cause electromagnetic interference.

[@rangerrecon]

That's assuming it is a WiFi router. There are plenty of routers that do not have a WiFi transceiver. If WiFi EMF is a concern, you can get a non-WiFi router and simply add a WiFi access point away from the audio equipment. Additionally, ethernet has galvanic isolation as part of the ethernet standard to mitigate the transference of electrical noise, floating groun potentials, etc. If you think about it, ethernet has to work in really harsh environments, such as cell tower equipment closets.

[@SteveD-m6z]

@@rangerrecon My comment was intended to highlight the risk of EMI and to make people aware of the situation. Most audiophiles do not consider the location of Wi-Fi routers and Wi-Fi access points when setting up their audio systems. I fully agree with your comment and the proposed solutions. The power density of the RF signal from the Wi-Fi transceiver will decreases with a square law, and the user just need to increase the distance from the source. When separation is not practical another solution is to place clip-on ferrite EMI suppression cores on the audio cables. The ferrite material becomes lossy at RF frequencies and the corresponding insertion loss will restrict any RF current.

[@marcorhettfelix7993]

Dear Paul, thats partically right. If your router has for exapmple also wifi installed, you will have noise local either on 2,4 or 5ghz. And maybe you are not the only user of the router, your kids probably use it too simultanously.. the router can have congestion as it shares the medium " internet" for all local users. Imagine, you do not stream via internet instead local. If the networks are logically separated, all traffic needs to be transported to the router to get routed between the subnets. This can result in so called jitter. Caused by the performance of the router,.mostly cheap routers are in use.. that have not the performance as the connection of the cable attached to it. 2x 1Gb/s throughtput for example if two networks are connected are mostly far above the performance of many consumer routers. So, especially in our modern music world, a router can have impact on the packets, it can have packet drops caused by performance, it could generate jitter ( misorder of the packets), it could generate local noise inteference if wifi is installed... it can have musically the same effects like you can hear on different power cables.

[@arnoldhryciuk7091]

We recently upgraded the router in our house and I think my Qobuz signal streamed through an ethernet cable increased the resolution and detail from my Bluesound Node. I don’t know if it’s just my imagination but to me it sounds better.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@arnoldhryciuk7091 Entirely imagination unless you have some flaw in your system.

[@jondu-sud274]

Time to get out the popcorn......here we go

[@MoparTech]

Why Did the Class G video go private?

[@colinmaynard2879]

Normal treatment for the g spot

[@mikelautermilch8939]

Hi Paul. Can you tell us whether you have a new preamp in the works? And if so, will it have tubes in the input stage? Thanks.

[@nickjcresswell]

There are two questions in hear and it's not clear which is being asked nor being answered. Routers radiate HF and if you put a router next to analogue audio equipment - like a phono stage - you may well hear it. Powerline internet extenders have their own issues too as they are injecting signal into your mains. Bluetooth connections are not blameless either. Clicking or popping are frequently reported in these situations. The better the HF / RF filtering of the analogue equipment, the less likely it is to amplify this interference. The other question is, does the router affect the sound of digitally streamed music. I agree with Paul, in that is doesn't. This is another reason why audio grade HDMI cables and Audiphile network cables are a waste of money!!

[@danijel-c]

Well, it is not a file; it is a stream. That is the difference between TCP and UDP.

[@James_Knott]

The difference between TCP & UDP is TCP has built in flow control and UDP doesn't. If an app that uses UDP needs flow control, it has to provide it itself. Either can transport long streams of data or be used to transfer a file.

[@SpyderTracks]

@@James_KnottTCP cannot transfer any files, it’s impossible, any data is packaged into packets. Those packets are unpacked and signature checked at the receiver and only then does it become a file. If there was any change in the package structure, the signature verification would fail and the packet would be requested again. People attribute analogue theories to network traffic, there is zero similarity.

[@James_Knott]

@@SpyderTracks With both TCP and UDP data is transferred as a series of 1 or more packets. If more than 1, the packets are reassembled into the file at the destination. TCP & UDP are no different in this regard. The difference between the 2 is TCP ensures all the packets are received properly to reconstruct the original data. UDP does not do that, but leaves it to the application to do that. TCP also has flow control, so that the network is not overloaded with traffic faster than it can handle it. UDP does not do that. For streaming audio, UDP is often used, because it's better to lose a bit of data than have the flow interrupted by trying to recover from a lost or damaged packet. BTW, I have been working with IP for almost 30 years and got my Cisco CCNA about 10 years aog.

[@danijel-c]

@@James_KnottFortunately, I no longer work in IT despite having CCIE 15 years ago. Let us say i know a little something about data transmission. 😂

[@danijel-c]

@@SpyderTracksAnd I said what? :)

[@mrmelton4776]

If they don’t, that raises a few questions about DACs and digital cables. I’m not suggesting they do, I’m just saying there might be some inconsistency in opinion here

[@Projacked1]

Hmmm, maybe PS should build an AirLens-Router?

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@Projacked1 No, PS audio makes great audio products and people should spend money on those products rather than imaginary improvements from golden Ethernet cables on cable lifters and snake oil audiophile routers.

[@net_news]

no need just use a swtich with an optical connection

[@mantas6293]

I think the question is misunderstood. it was not about the data issue using cheap router, which could suffer quality, but instead about if the cheap router with wifi could cause interferance if it is placed next to an audio system.

[@emerycomputer]

Correct. Not that it makes an iotaof a difference on the large scheme of things; stupid questions, stupid answers 😂 Whenever I feel bored and in need of amusement, I visit a random audiophile channel, and they rarely disappoint

[@medonk12rs]

Electric noise on the ethernet cable CAN have an influence on sound. Be it by increasing jitter in the streamer, or DAC... Same with Wifi: Also WiFi modules within streamers can influence the sound. Try for yourself! ;)

[@SpyderTracks]

Only if it’s substandard equipment that doesn’t have proper isolation.

[@medonk12rs]

@SpyderTracks sure.... too much broken stuff out there ;)

[@tomday7309]

Bits is Bits, eh Paul?

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@tomday7309 Everywhere on the planet bits are bits except in the homes of snake oil believing audiophiles.

[@brettmeyers593]

Bits get removed all the time in digital..A great DAC corrects everything, building a restored transmission to speakers.

[@paulomontero12]

It definitely changes the sound if the router is slow old router.

[@mdschlayer]

Paul, try a Dejitter It switch and custom Mikrotik router connected with an audiophile direct attach cable and let us know how you dont hear an improvement streaming on Qobuz.

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@mdschlayer What a lousy DAC you got yourself if you have to put medicine of such kind in front of it. Does your online banking also fail? Perhaps it’s terrible internet at fault. Time to throw it out and get some proper engineered products.

[@James_Knott]

When audiophiles are arguing, you need a shovel to deal with all the BS. 🙂

[@spacemissing]

More like a Link Belt dragline.

[@damonsbest]

Paul is mistaken here IMO. He’s talking like a cable denier would. Anyone can make a great argument to why neither cables or routers make a sonic difference but Paul obviously hasn’t done much listening concerning the routers impact on sound due to his own thoughts. He should take his own advice towards cable deniers. Long story short, just listen for yourself. For me what LPSU is connected, & power feeding the LPSU make a massive difference on a routers sonic performance. Many won’t agree but we will all move on & hopefully enjoy that music 🎶 Happy Listening ✌️

[@tubefreeeasy]

I’m gonna have to try this. I mean, the xFinity cord I’ve been issued is the WEAKEST link in my whole rig. Just hook it up with silver cabling. I mean, it’s the REAL source of signal throughout the system. I’ll need to get two. One for my cable box, too. Thanks for the reassurance of knowing that a knowledgeable/audio adventurist has approved of this.

[@tubefreeeasy]

Has your internet speed gone up?

[@damonsbest]

@@tubefreeeasy i didn’t check speed, however I very much doubt it.

[@tubefreeeasy]

@ Does your music sound more saturated?

[@damonsbest]

@@tubefreeeasy I do have Farad Super 3 Linear power supply on my modem & router & an Audiophile Ethernet switch near my streamer. I found that the power feeding all my Ethernet items has been crucial in my system which has been a major pain for me but it’s benefits have made it all worth while

[@mikeeygauthier2959]

Choosing an Internet PROVIDER is most critical!

[@ian-nz-2000]

Without one you won't have a any data to complain about! 😂

[@jvanb231]

I have to disagree with Paul slightly, yes I agree that the router won't impact the sound, but the proximity to audio system might, given the awful switch mode power supplies those things typically come with and with especially home grade equipment.

[@jeff3575davison]

what about potential emf or rfi eminating from the router effecting the power line and possibly analog equipment and wiring? lots of "antenna" behind the gear

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@jeff3575davison Yes, if your gear is poorly designed against EMI for FCC compliant products, you might have a case, but I would blame your audio gear for being poorly engineered. Let’s say you have a RIIA stage in a preamp and it picks up RF from your router you put nearby causing interference. In this case it’s poor shielding within your preamp against EMI requirements that any respectable audio company have clearly defined. Small companies might skip on basic engineering disciplines for consumer electronics such as EMI compliance however.

[@kennethmajland]

Have put an iFi Audio iPower Elite DC 12v/4a to my standard router. Whether that's why it sounds good here is the question. The digital ones and zeroes are, after all, just an analogue signal, like the quality of the power supply in my amplifier and the rest of the system. Want to save on power supplies there?

[@goodsound4756]

Paul doesn't asses correctly where digital can go wrong. it's not the ethernet part but the analog circuitry within a DAC that is succeptible to electric noise, that goes along with the digital data into the unit.

[@theonl1128]

😂 ...that last remark was a good one! 😅 As always, you're great.

[@stanislavshokurov5878]

But this is very unkind answer to those people who try to sell audiophile routers.

[@Douglas_Blake]

The only way a router can affect an audio system is if the WiFi antenna is close enough to cause RFI to your amplifiers. This you would hear as a Braaaaap Braaaap sound as the WiFi transmitter worked. The solution would be to simply move it further away. The thing to appreciate is that there is no audio in a digital cable... none. Inside the cable are packets of data that your DAC translates into electrical waveforms for your amplifier to feed to the speakers. The only time it's audio or sound is after it breaks away from your speaker cones. That is to say... don't worry about it.

[@Fluterra]

Wrong

[@Tom-xg1kj]

I like to worry about the degradation of everything!

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@Douglas_Blake FCC regulates the WiFi transmission power and if your amp misbehaves from it, it’s an EMI sensitivity problem of your amp electronics and shielding. It’s time to throw out such poorly designed amp. Nowadays a lot of audio gear runs a WiFi interface within the product itself.

[@Douglas_Blake]

@@ThinkingBetter Yep. The bad old days of the local CBer screaming "Breaker Breaker Any Taker" out of your $15,000 amplifier should be long over.

[@Douglas_Blake]

@@Tom-xg1kj Just a suggestion ... but maybe you should try enjoying your music, for a change.

[@LS-ti6jo]

So sad to see a CD rack that's almost empty. Bring back physical media Paul.

[@dirkbusche54]

Dear Paul, love your channel, but for once you are wrong. Routers do influence the sound very well. Example: I exchanged the plug-in power supply of my router for a Keces P8 linear power supply (700 euros). Result: Streamer (lumin) sounded cleaner, more powerful, more lively. Netswitches also influence the sound. Same procedure: Linear power supplies (Ferrum Hypsos, Kece's P8) improve streamer sound in the same way. Another sound improvement for routers and netswitches: higher quality power cables (Supra Silver Anniversary with Oyaide plugs) for their linear power supplies. In short: I recommend Paul to try this in practice instead of only substantiating his opinion theoretically and technically.

[@SpyderTracks]

Ergo you had a substandard router. That can’t happen on a design that meets specifications

[@EthanMerbaum]

If your music sounds different then the bitstream is different. Which is an impossibility based on what you said changed. The ecc from the router to the final device would also have corrected any errors. Meaning when your dac sees it it would have been the exact same data. Ergo the exact same sound.

[@1donjuego]

If i spent 700 euros on a new donkey in tge backyard to make my stereo sound better you can sure bet that I will hear the improvement.

[@dieselbrodeur]

Did you watch the video ? he very clearly states if you have noise problems it can affect the sound. but then again what kind of a low quality streamer is that ?

[@dirkbusche54]

@@dieselbrodeurthere is not any installation, which has no noise problems. And there is not any installation without jitter. Thats the reason, why better power supplies, better LAN-cables, better switches, better power cables etc improve the sound of streaming. You only have the Chance to discover it.

[@Zhiloreznik]

I see some people too much money to burn and mind so open that their brain fell out as well. Fascinating

[@cbureriu]

however, USB streaming does affect sound in my experience at least with my device, a Tascam Model 12

[@SpyderTracks]

USB is not networking, completely different method of transport

[@cbureriu]

@@SpyderTracks not networking but still streaming

[@georgeballow7028]

Every once in a while my system just sounds like … well, terrible. It has frustrated me for a long time. Got a tip. Reboot your router. Fixes it just about every time. My imagination? Feeding DS MK1 and bridge.

[@georgecav]

This probably explains why ps audio products leave me cold feeling I am listening to fm radio which I find clinical and boring and not like real lively music - rather than be guided by thec theory, I don’t care what the current best understanding of science tells me, I rely on the only test instrument that matters and indeed routers, power supplies and in my case esp moving from a cheap cat 6a interconnect to just a good quality comms grade ($7aud vs $14) does make a difference and sometimes an improvement other times not. Why should it? Don’t know don’t care.

[@Jedi71]

Hans Beekhuyzen enters the chat.....

[@georgeherman9953]

I'm sorry but there is now conclusive proof that it does indeed make a difference. A few years ago with my network engineering background I thought it didn't make a difference. I emphatically said then that digital switches and cables didn't make a difference. Nonetheless, I still experimented with it, found that I was wrong. I found that as up upgraded the digital portion of my system I found that the network connection made a profound difference. The reason I think that there is controversy around this topic is because it takes a quality setup to hear a difference. My setup from 5 years wouldn't hear a difference. Recently Hans Beekhuysen covered what I was hearing. The real problem is there does not exist any test equipment measure sound stage and imaging. Our ears will hear a difference seems to correlate to jitter. We have to depend on our listening. And that is where the controversy begins. Nonetheless... here is a pointer to Hans' fiindings. If you don't care for Hans, there are plenty of other experts that will show you the same. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHSpp3ywr7KknM0si=7z973z1OO71HZO5s

[@lexicon612]

If you stream at least invest in an audiophile grade ethernet cord. Don't worry about the router...Do, worry about the ethernet cord.

[@pizzafrenzyman]

At the end of the day, it's a long string of 0's and 1's.

[@Fluterra]

Absolutely! Everything affects audio quality. But you need a very high end, low noise system to be able to notice. This is why Taiko Audio goes into such an extent to reduce noise with their Router, Switch, and Streamer. Run of the mill stuff like what PS Audio makes is not resolving enough for a router to make a difference

[@Bosworth123]

Please let this be satire.

[@joeythedime1838]

I agree on the router but what about the ethernet switch? Audiophile Ethernet switches or filters do they help the sound?

[@ThinkingBetter]

No they don’t! Those are snake oil.

[@sean_heisler]

The thing is, the Ethernet ports in the router are basically a switch. See my comment on the video.

[@Pete.across.the.street]

They do help the sound

[@ThinkingBetter]

@@Pete.across.the.street They help what you think you hear 😂

[@EricRhodeslives]

Yes, not all. But many.

[@Alamo-cz5xc]

Router, not so sure. Switch definitely

[@jeremyhicks964]

Paul, I think you are looking at this from an IT perspective and not an electrical perspective. Streaming protocols (like Tidal et al.) are packet based so its doesn't matter the quality of the networking equipment as the packets are error corrected and reassembled in the streamer. HOWEVER, electrical noise on the streamer's network connection to the internet will infect its circuits meaning that when it translates the packet-based stream to a bit stream for the DAC more jitter will be introduced. I was thinking the same way until a practical demonstration changed my mind!

[@thegrimyeaper]

Whoa, he's using the "why does a power cable matter when the power is miles away?" defence.

[@glenncurry3041]

Does he mean "router"? Or does he mean his router is also his WiFi access point and he's wondering about it's RF?

[@carlubambi5541]

I don't agree with you Paul .Anything digital generates noise in any analog system especially EMF that acts like RF.I can take out my cable tracer wand and pick up sounds from wifi routers computers and other devices using clocks to time .hell I can pick up the timing circuits in some devices as VCOs can generate loads of noise .the question is frequency and how high up it goes above human listening abilities .Soem power supplies and dimmers used in lighting circuits are at 22khz your pets can hear that quite well

[@markward4532]

I think a switch or router that supports igmp snooping means unwanted packets don’t reach the streamer and cause less interrupts to the streamers network stack and can, with some streamers, make a difference.

[@Douglas_Blake]

If you have unwanted packets getting to your streamer, there is a serious ... no, make that "Severe" ... problem with your networking.

[@markward4532]

There are lots of broadcast packets from the various devices on a home network.

[@Douglas_Blake]

@@markward4532 True. But they should not affect performance of your devices.

[@lyfandeth]

Paul, some switches and routers are FCC Part 15 certified for home use, others for business use. This is because of the amount RFI they generate, which can create audible distortion and interference with any other nearby electronics. Would that create an audible degradation in a home music system? Maybe. Depends on the equipment, and your ears. I had one router that emitted so much RFI that it had to be turned off. Even shielding the entire router, the power and data wires threw that noise into anything in the room. LED lamps that are dimmable, or simply made "wrong" do the same thing.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Perhaps it was your DAC having poorly designed shielding or power rail noise filtering. My first suspect would be poor engineering in the DAC for sensitivity to noise, unless you run your own AM station with wires near your DAC. Reminds me of a DAC I had ages ago that actually was sensitive to mobile phone radiation.

[@TheGranty1739]

never tried streaming

[@philipw7058]

All aspects of computer audio makes noise period

[@DG-rc6rr]

Too much valuable information every day....I can't keep up! Paul, take a vacation!

[@deanokay666]

So, what you’re saying is, spend 100s on power conditioning and cables because that makes a huge difference, but the budget, freebie router is just fine. 🤔

[@Mowikan]

Only if angels pis at full moon on your router it sounds better.

[@darrellross8609]

P, This was one of your best videos! Common folk questions getting answers.

[@nonyabeezwax6932]

Thanks Paul. I needed to laugh. Keep going, look forward to your videos every day.

[@gregstewart9419]

Yes they do. My Uptone Audio EtherRegens were significant upgrades & respond very well to power upgrades. & I have a minimalistic computer playback setup with only a low-power music server, a WiFi endpoint for control access, & a couple of FMC's that isolate the endpoint. All powered by sonically selected linear supplies, no SMPSs. & No streaming. That an EtherRegen makes a difference here tells me it will in virtually any digital playback setup with an Ethernet connection before the playback endpoint. Sorry Paul, I agree with you on so many things & have since 1980 when I bought my 1st piece of PSA gear, but not this!

[@Piglet6256]

Simple answer: No, Routers do not affect streaming quality :D

[@tubefreeeasy]

I use silver coax on my modem and have noticed a clarity in audio transparency and offered a bit more clarity in video.

[@TeknoGecko]

I love these videos but I disagree. Going from a cable to a fiber internet connection made a big difference and got the streaming services quality much closer to my local NAS. Then I changed the modem/router from the service provider and that made a big difference as well. After that I upgraded the power supply of the router and I could hear a change there. I can also hear a difference when I switch cables from my NAS to the router. Every link in the chain can make a difference. As long as you are using network cables the jitter and noise can travel accross the cables and interfere with the components down the line. A perfect filter could prevent that I guess. Never heard one yet. I tested isolating the audio network with media converters once, but they had their own issues.

[@GuareschiGuillermo]

They make big difference, even when you change the power supply. Your example is the same as saying why a good power cable works if the electricity comes from long distances and many networks, the last meters changes everything , the good power cable act as a filter. Well, you are not listening right.

[@ThinkingBetter]

No, lossless streaming has no sound to it! Noise from a power supply or some processor is not about streaming but about flaws in your own electronics.

[@ian-nz-2000]

No, it does not! The components in the device power supply provides all of the filtering you need. A short bit of cable is not a filter.

[@net_news]

ridiculous you can use fiber connection if you are worried about noise

[@leonardopapantoniou4227]

So to invest in internet switches are nonsense really?

[@patrickmeylemans9627]

It all matters so the can sell audiophile switches and Ethernet cables with a large profit margin 😂😂

[@phantomplastics6582]

He's right that it shouldn't but then try it and see that it does. Even a basic Cisco Meraki used on eBay cheap is an upgrade. The LHY SW-10 and Network Acoustics Tempus are even better.

[@darrellross8609]

P, My Wife bought our family a new LG TV, on sale thank God. The streamer in it is Glorious. "It plays music". Best, D.

[@mirandadamsmith]

The argument you make about the bits coming over miles of wires and stiches is the same that people make about power cords and the power coming over miles of wires and transformers.

[@EyebrowsMahoney]

One is analogue, and subject to differences in impedance and environment. The other is digital, has error correction, and cannot be colored. A 1 is a 1, and 0 is a 0. A 1 can't have anything in it but a one, and 0 can't have anything but a 0 in it. It is ABSOLUTE. This is what you don't understand.

[@mirandadamsmith]

@@EyebrowsMahoney That is the argument people make about digital interconnects.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Nice Paul 😊

[@Fluterra]

Paul- you seem to miss a point. A great streamer/router will recreate the digital file. Precisely because the original stream file is coming from so many servers. You of all people should get that, since you developed the AC regenerator. Once again, if Paul doesn’t sell it, he doesn’t have an opinion on it! Lame.

[@James_Knott]

"A great streamer/router will recreate the digital file." ALL routers and switches recreate the packets as they pass through, but only the destination devices reassembles the original file.

[@Fluterra]

@ Right but I mean recreate it with minimal noise and jitter. If you have a resolving system it’s absolutely noticeable. If you have higher noise elsewhere in the chain, you won’t notice the difference

[@James_Knott]

@@Fluterra Not sure who you're replying to as you apparently replied to yourself. However, on packet switched networks, delay is expected and where necessary dealt with by using buffers. Also, we're talking digital systems, where the frame is regenerated at every step, so noise is not an issue. If any of that makes it's way into the analog circuits, in noticeable levels, then you've got some crappy equipment.

[@KarlHamilton]

Nope. Network engineer for the last 25 years. All this talk of reclocking is, frankly, embarrassing.

[@Parakeet-pk6dl]

I presume “Chanel” is woman

[@chiil034]

Three things: Network latency, network jitter and network packet loss. Yes, it can affect audio.

[@obsprisma]

It also can not. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It depends on who is listening.

[@RoderikvanReekum]

NO

[@danab7472]

Even if it did make a difference, until someone starts making “audiophile routers” we’re out of luck.

[@BIGGIEsmalls13]

Do human beings have the aural capabilities to tell?

[@jacobpaternostro9109]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aYrZmnyidsxnmpY my money's on Hans

[@timd5365]

I keep a wet paper towel draped over my router. Works like a charm.

[@noahbirdrevolution]

I disagree. It's not the data. It's how the POE is handled by the devices. Same as when power over USB dirties the sound.

[@littlewicky1]

Are there any audiophile steamers that are using Power over Ethernet to be powered? I haven't heard of any.

[@noahbirdrevolution]

@ I dunno. That's not what I'm saying. More like: if POE is inherently on until negotiated by the device can it have an affect depending on how the device deals with it? Is there poor termination at the board of the devices, or unintended noise from the power due to poor circuit design. I'm not saying for certain even the op does imply that.

[@STLSportsAudioFan]

I have tried converting to fiber and then back, high end Ethernet cables, different routers, ethernet “filters”, power filters on the LAN components, etc on my very resolving system and noticed no difference in any of them. The only small amount of difference I noticed is when I converted to a 1G fiber provider from the idiot cable company offering at 500MB. My experience is in line with what Paul states here.

[@teknorob633]

Which Ethernet filters did you try?

[@STLSportsAudioFan]

@ 2 of the iFi ones. The iSilencer and Lan Purifer Pro.

[@teknorob633]

@@STLSportsAudioFan thanks and i'm surprised you didnt hear any difference, better or worse. I have tried both of these and the isilencer made my system sound worse. The lan purifier pro made some improvement when positioned back near the router. The Muon Pro however, now thats a different story and the improvements arent subtle, with any streamer i've tried with it from the MU1 to DCS Bridge. I have a lot of respect for Paul, but i do wonder how much experimenting he has actually one with the network chain including actual listening, because his answer in this video seems to based on theory no experience. I was highly skeptical, but having tried numerous switches, filters, changes in PSU, i have found that optimising the network set up is absolutely key to getting the most out of streamed playback. Previously i used streaming purely for research before buying cds or records because it sounded crap, but now if listen exclusively to streamed music. Obviously this is just my experience. 🙂

[@STLSportsAudioFan]

@ Paul does use his Airlens that cleans up the incoming Ethernet signal, and mentions that in the video. What he more or less says is that you need something like that, but once you do have that, there is no reason to worry about the other upstream network components…. Like for instance $6K Ethernet switches and $3K Ethernet cables.

[@teknorob633]

@@STLSportsAudioFan I agree, i wouldnt spend $9K on optimising my network with a $2K streamer, the spend should be proportionate, but based on my experience i've not heard a streamer or server that isnt improved by working on the network feed. That said i havent tried the airlens, so i cant comment specifically about this product.

[@pierpaoloazzalin9505]

When streaming via Qobuz, I have heard an improvement when I upgraded from fiber to the cabinet connection (FTTC) to fiber to the home (FTTH) which is 2.5 Gb/s. The fact that the connection is faster makes the sound more fluid, clear, detailed, like a perception of higher resolution. If a service or a given record is provided/streamed at a realatively higher kbps, than I believe with a faster connection one can exploit its maximum potential. Not talking hi-res vs CD quality here, just sheer kbps which I think is more relevant when streaming via inthernet cable. Other than that I agree that the router itself won't make a difference as far it can support the rated connection speed as well as streaming speed (i.e. router designed for 2.5Gb/s FTTH connection). And yes, isolation is just the most important aspect, from cables to gears. Properly implemented galvanic isolation at inputs is something I like to see.

[@christofferekman8497]

You are just dead wrong on this Issue Paul, I really wish you would do some homework and actually listen. I am convinced that you would easily hear the differences. Btw your "where does the signal" logic is completely off, it is not a matter of where it comes from or there being a difference in the bits. The difference 100% arises from the jitter that your router introduces due to clocking and ground plane errors. You should perhaps review John Swansons FAQ on this issue. The current response you keep using just shows that you have not actually read up on this matter.

[@SastusBulbas1]

If it was the case we would have strong constructive evidence showing measured differences, but no, so far we have colourful terms for switches routers and al manner of nonsense crap to the point we see mental issue get your head examined prices on rebranded cack internet producted being peddled in a scam as audiophile internet switching. The hifi industry is an absolute farce with a majority of idiots being scammed, and they defend the scams. Plenty of websites show factual evidence of the scams, yet since the 90's we have had a decimal percentage of the planet who claim to be "audiophiles" cleaiming to hear differences human bioligy, science and engineering state cannot happen with measurements showing it cannot happen, meanwhile Bobby no sense with his £60'000 cables and £30 golden ears router and switching for his £12000 streamer states oh he certainly can hear phase anomolies in skin effect of the ethernet cable at 75Khz as a muddying of bass transients while taking a dump at the train station. Wake up.

[@James_Knott]

Every streaming device uses buffers to smooth out jitter, etc.. Also, packets as transmitted are 100% accurate or discarded. There's no in between.