do we all have to be experts?

how many experts are there really in the language learning community, and why do so many people feel like that's the only form of existing for language learning content creators? can we engage in types of content that don't just provide advice, and are people being misleading with their content in order to promote their own image as an expert. a chatty ramble.
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[@languagetraveladoptee]

These surveys are so interesting! Thank you for sharing them, as well as this topic. Its interesting about what an expert is. And ive seen similar non consensus about "are you a true polyglot" or not in communities too. Also must say, the "polybro mansplaining" had me laughing a bit, since I had never heard it put that way. But they do have a good point

[@joreneelanguages]

that one definitely cracked me up! 😆

[@SusanA-t1g]

My favourite videos are those that show people experimenting with their language learning process, rather than having a singular method. My main interest in goals, process and reflection videos (whether for the year, quarter or a single vlogged session), is because I can see how they are changing how they are thinking about their own learning and adapting it to changing circumstances. As someone who also has a habit of starting random language projects that often eventually fail, I also think it's fun to watch people be creative about how they are approaching language learning. In particular I enjoy when they draw from learning or training methods in different fields or areas of life (eg. sports) to see how they can applied to language learning. In this sense it doesn't matter what "the experts / professionals" say is the most "productive" or "efficient" way to learn a language, because the intent here is to do something new that might ultimately be totally useless. In the same way I also enjoying reading academic papers about language learning research that clarifies or challenges how I think about language learning. For example, recently I have been learning more about how different institutes approach teaching business language classes, as part of the bigger discussion on "language learning for specific purposes". This is absolutely not how everyone likes to approach their own language learning, and many people would probably find this overwhelming or exausting. I also aware that I have the freedom to be this experimental since I am not learning for an external pressure (eg. exam, school, visa) and I don't have any responsibility over other people's learning (I am not a teacher). I am experimental because I enjoy experimenting and find repetition boring, I don't believe in a "one true method" even for myself let alone one that suits everyone. Even when I was enrolled in a pretty rigid graded-level course, I wasn't doing the same activities at each level because the learning content changes, so I think everyone should expect their learning practices to change and adapt over time. Given this context, I think assessing "experts" (whether because of their experience, or because they research it, etc.) to me comes down to identifying what they are trying to achieve through their methods, evaluating whether it coincides with my current goals or whether it changes how I think about language learning, and then implementing it or experimenting with it myself. As such I am tired of the repetition that emerges in many of the "advice" videos aimed at beginners, but thankfully they don't appear much on my youtube page anyway. It's also annoying that the majority are aimed at the beginner level, maybe I would be more forgiving it there were more for more advanced learners. I think my favourite "advice" videos now are those that are related to goals that are highly specific (eg. how to pass a language exam), because the preparation method is so specific that it ends up being different from regular "advice" videos and teaches me something (especially if its about a language I don't even learn).

[@joreneelanguages]

That’s so interesting! I really like experimentation and unique “projects” in language learning as well, although I think it’s very hard for people to accurately identify what has “worked” for themselves, but it isn’t hard to identify whether it was enjoyable and sustainable or not, so it’s still useful lol

[@1980rlquinn]

Are there any experimenters or just individual videos you would recommend? I'm very monkey-see-monkey-do and would love something to emulate (even if I don't follow the particular methods that they experiment with).

[@SusanA-t1g]

@@1980rlquinn I got a bit distracted trying to find videos for you, but here are some videos that I think about a lot. Some of them aren't very experimental in of themselves, and lot of them are "advice" videos, but they maybe inspired me to think about areas of my learning in a new way. Sorry @joreneelanguages that my comments on your videos keep turning into essays ... _______ kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIbVaZKigd55bsU (Polynotte) - I was looking for a new way to practice writing chinese characters, and polynotte's love for dictation tests inspired me to use that as a way of practicing my writing and listening at the same time. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nprRYnt9ncd6mtE (Language Lords) - A speaking practice that is about telling a story, making corrections and then memorising it. I will probably never do this but I thought it was interesting. (If I find a video I'll put it here) I can't remember where this idea is from (maybe just from my teacher), but you take a paragraph or essay, delete the vocabulary that is specific to that topic, and then using the leftover grammar framework fill in the paragraph with new vocabulary about a new topic. If you do this over and over it helps solidify paragraph structures in your memory and really helps with essay writing. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pWG8lGWsfpyoh5I (Ari no Yume) - In this video they assessed themselved according to the JLPT framework, but it really inspired me to think more about how I conceptualise progression in language learning, and how that can help me plan, or fill in missing skills. At the moment I think of it as a progression of input resources from "graded language learning materials" > "comprehensive language learning materials" > "general knowledge native content" > "specific knowledge native content", and then on the output side a progression of difficulty in exercises. But this will probably change.

[@SusanA-t1g]

@@1980rlquinn Continued (Part 2) (1) Video about the relationship between culture and translation. (Will add when I can find it). (2) kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4i0iqSZe71rgKc (Norwegian with Ilys) (3) kzbin.info/www/bejne/m53Mc5KvZcugic0 (Days and Words) (4) kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4XPnpKHmZafadE (Polyglot Progress) (5) kzbin.info/www/bejne/jaGphnh4fbJlacU (Jo Renee Languages) (6) kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqXag3eHht12Z9E (Elysse Speaks) Thinking about context: I was really inspired by a class I had to do in translation, which taught me a lot about the importance of context. I liked how systems like 'clozemaster' and 'reverso-context' gave me better understandings of new vocabulary through the context of the full sentence, but I thought that they still lacked a lot of contextual information. Who is saying this sentence? Who are they speaking to? In what environment are they in? Books, TV shows, Audiobooks give you a lot of this contextual information, so if you study vocab using example sentences from TV shows etc. you have a better understanding of how this vocab word and how its meaning might change according to context. Video (2) talks (very briefly) about building up a database of books, so that when you learn a new word, you can search through this database to see examples of how the sentence is used (essentially building your own "reverso-context"). How do I want to study my 'input material'? In videos (2) and (3), they talk about repetitively engaging with one source of input, until you memorise it. Videos (3) and (4) are more about extensively reading / listening but video (3) also talks about how they approach intensive reading. Video (6) is about using fill-in-the-blank translation (Clozemaster) to practice vocab.

[@SusanA-t1g]

@@1980rlquinn Continued (Part 3) (1) kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHuboJmDl5Wlp80 (Zoe的中文频道) (There are english subtitles) (2) Video about practicing pronounciation as an advanced learner (will add if I can find it). Main points were: that even advanced learner would benefit from revisting the basics of pronounciation. Learning "most common mistakes" can be a really good guide, you can record yourself and then listen back, focusing on whether you made those mistakes or not. The common mistakes mentioned were about tone combinations in Mandarin Chinese. (3) kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJXPZ4Rjh6ilaKs (Grace Mandarin Chinese) (4) kzbin.info/www/bejne/iaOXgo1qh9WSga8 (Grace Mandarin Chinese) Questions these videos made me think about: How do I practice pronounciation? How do I improve my ability to differentiate between different accents? What other aspects of language learning have I labelled "for beginners" that I could really benefit from revisting? I think you could also use some of these videos as activities guides, for example, (following the example of Grace Mandarin Chinese) choosing a sentence and seeing how it's pronunciation changes according to region. I also found that my spanish listening skills for South America improved after I learnt how to use voseo and how its use changes between regions. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYere2ehgqhjqpI (Ameer Corro) - What vocabulary should I learn? This video talks briefly about building a "frequency" list of vocabulary relevant to you through analysing your own speech patterns. I don't think I will ever do this, but it did remind me to think more about "how can I ensure my input is relevant to what I want to be able to output?". This lead to me using websites about the area where I live that were in my target language (tourism websites, council websites), and using travel phrasebooks (using more 'practical use' resources) which I previously dismissed as too 'easy' for a more advanced learner.

[@calebl6586]

I totally agree I’m a big knitter and there’s tons of content that isn’t instructional. If anything I’d say it’s more common for people to pepper in advice when talking about things dihedral and such. I definitely prefer language learning content that isn’t instructional and I think most people would if more of it existed

[@xojaci]

tbh im def a person who goes based on vibes, and really i just like content that shows what people are doing. i love being inspired by others more than anything! i do enjoy advice from everyday people, tbh. i'm not always seeking it but if it pops up i dont mind it. i know i never have to take anyone's word for it, so i don't mind the advice because i easily take what resonates and leave the rest. and i appreciate advice from people who are actually going through the process and can share what is working for them! i notice i kinda enjoy this advice more than from people who are "experts" just bc it feels like experts tend to have a v specific way of thinking or a v specific method or whatever. and i really enjoy just like general, "idk this worked for me maybe itll work for you" advice. makes the whole thing feel like a hobby (as it is!) and not like a thing i could fail at if i dont follow x advice, adding more pressure to something that is meant to be fun. plus we see with language learning how many people are fluent now, from a various number of methods, so its even more annoying to me to find "expert advice" thats treated as "the one true way" (like you mentioned, this tends to be more from the people who like the method than the expert themself, but it still makes me turned off from that kinda advice and honestly those type of channels/videos!) more than anything, i just love to see other people's journeys, the community aspect is really nice! :))

[@joreneelanguages]

I’m definitely not saying people shouldn’t give advice! I just think the balance in the types of videos available is *heavily* advice rn, and i just find that odd given that most of KZbin isn’t necessarily that way…

[@xojaci]

@@joreneelanguages oh for sure! i was just sharing my thoughts on it :) i def do agree that for a hobby, the lang community is extremely heavy on the advice compared to others! i wonder if its bc a lot of people (esp generally speaking) tend to be constantly focused on the how, instead of just doing smth they like and sticking to it. it kinda reminds me of like the "wellness" (or fitness? or whatever? lol) side of youtube. theres always people asking "how" and people giving advice, even though theres more than enough of other videos saying smth similiar. and then they also tend to sneak in advice here and there too lmfao

[@joreneelanguages]

@@xojaci lol ok good just wanted to make sure it wasn’t coming off that way. That’s true, the fitness space does have a ton of this too! It’s nice to hear it all again sometimes lol but yeah it always boils down to the same basics (pretty much no matter what hobby probably 😆)

[@paulwalther5237]

It's been a while but I used to read academic journals online regarding language learning - mostly for Japanese and Japanese kanji. I think all my language studying and watching KZbin etc., helped make it more readable. They weren't that enlightening. They didn't find any good way to learn Japanese kanji. I think everyone in the study pretty much failed at kanji. But the studies were over the course of a semester for the most part or maybe a year but language learning is so slow and personally I'm still picking up new kanji/vocabulary now after 10 years of studying the language. Maybe it's different for "easy" languages because you can measure progress faster but for Japanese it really takes 5+ years for adults to learn. Kids are a different thing entirely. It's hard to do a study that long. Who has the patience?

[@paulwalther5237]

After doing the survey I thought to myself I should have checked the box ok to share. Oh well. My channel is tiny but for a brief moment I was having fun uploading videos. I did NOT want to be an advice channel. I wanted my videos to be a blog of my hobby of studying languages because I don't have any study buddies or study groups. I didn't get many views and fewer comments but some of the few comments were from people looking for advice really. It seems language learners really want advice videos. With all the advice videos already out there it kind of surprises me. And if you look at my videos I don't think I present myself as an "I've got the answers!" kind of guy. Just the opposite haha. But language learning is difficult and unlike many activities it's really hard to know if you're doing it right since you're not going to see results for a long time anyway, so I suppose that's why. I might click on any kind of language video depending on my mood but often I am not looking for generic advice because I've heard it before. And you're right that the video titles can be misleading and half the time they're giving advice rather than going over stuff for why I clicked in the first place. I assume these people don't realize they're going off topic but I'm not really sure. You kind of want to tell them that making good videos is like writing a college essay - let's stay on topic. Or if you go off topic at least be aware that you went off topic. I suppose it bugs me because I specifically clicked this video because I thought it wasn't an advice video but... it was.

[@joreneelanguages]

I didn’t know you had made videos, I’ll check them out! That’s so funny, I very rarely get asked for advice, you must have had a knowledgeable air 🤣 yes, I haven’t pinpointed why that annoys me so much, but I think it feels patronizing or something??

[@paulwalther5237]

@@joreneelanguages I shouldn’t have said anything 😂. Who makes videos? What are you talking about?

[@joreneelanguages]

@@paulwalther5237 😆 too late!

[@janelle.loves.languages]

I'm interested in these "pay-for" clubs that you mentioned... that's new to me as well. Where or how do I find them?

[@joreneelanguages]

specifically three that I know of are elysse speaks, language travel adoptee, and izaparle (in Portuguese I think). I don’t know much about them other than having seen them talk about launching them!

[@janelle.loves.languages]

@@joreneelanguages Okay cool thanks... I'll check them out!

[@paulwalther5237]

I assumed she was thinking of ways to earn a little money from the channel 😂😂.

[@languagetraveladoptee]

@joreneelanguages thanks for mentioning me❤ I'm in Elysse's community who is awesome, but also run mine, which is more like a mindful coaching membership for language learners. I know Luca Lampariello also has his smart language academy

[@someperson9536]

A person does not have to claim to be an expert. Someone could talk about their experience with different language learning products. Don't give people advice. Don't tell people what is the correct way to do something. Talk about your own experience.

[@BeyondMediocreMandarin]

"Listen to the experts" is good advice in general, but when we have a medical problem, we go to a doctor for help (and actually have a conversation with them), not a medical researcher. I guess the question is, who are the "experts"? (In KZbin videos, experts often say "not medical advice" or "not legal advice".)

[@joreneelanguages]

yeah, that’s a very interesting point. we don’t really have an analogous figure in language learning for “going to the doctor,” which I would still consider speaking to an expert even if they didn’t do the research themselves, they should be amply qualified to interpret it. naturally the closest analogy would be teachers, but from what i understand there’s often a big disconnect between research and how teachers are taught to teach.

[@donkeyhota.dontflamingo9294]

Hi Jo renee, i have a question for you. When you read a normal fiction book in spanish, how many new words (wether you can surmise its meaning from the context or not) you come across per page?

[@joreneelanguages]

hmm. words that I might struggle to “define” but could get from context- probably several on every page. words that I *can’t* figure out from context, maybe 1-2 per page. some books that are more literary could be more. I look them up if I’m curious about them, if not I just keep going.

[@donkeyhota.dontflamingo9294]

@joreneelanguages thanks for responding. What do you do once you find a new word and look it up? Do you add them to a vocabulary list and review them from time to time? Do you make sure to actively employ those new words whether through speaking or through writing? Or just the lookups are sufficient for you to remember them forever?

[@joreneelanguages]

@@donkeyhota.dontflamingo9294 usually I just look them up and move on, I have made flashcards in the past and occasionally still do, but I don’t find myself motivated to review them. Some words I remember right away, some I don’t, but eventually I do learn them all (or at least all the ones I’ve learned so far lol)