Do you really need a shaper?

[@jar944]

Just a couple points that I think you will see as you use the shaper more.. 1. The tooling changes should be the same as the router table. There is no need to change the spindle to change a cutter head. You can change spindles, but it's not a normal process. Most of the bigger machines have a spindle lock so don't even need two wrenches. 2. Production speed isn't the only reason to get a shaper, cut quality is a primary driver. The larger the cutting circle the more tangential the cut. That directly relates to cut quality. It is a benefit if you are building a one off or a production run. 3. Tooling cost.. yes cutter heads are generally more than Router bits but the standard euro block (40mm) knives can be had for under $20 a profile and will cut a few thousand lineal feet. I'll take a $20 knife over a $20 Router bit every day.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Unfortunately this machine does not have a spindle lock. Definitely a shortcoming.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

I completely agree with all your points. Most of this is geared towards a weekend warrior I'd say. For a production shop it's just a no brainer.

[@jar944]

@@CoffeyCustomBuilds That is relatively standard in that most of the small shapers don't have spindle locks. (Orhan some euro models) Its more annoying than anything else.

[@jar944]

@@CoffeyCustomBuilds fair i get the content is geared toward the hobby shop. I've always maintained though that shapers are just as useful in a home shop/weekend warrior setting as production shop. Big equipment just makes things easier, be it a bird house or a full kitchen.

[@mattschreiber4251]

I’ve never changed a spindle to change a bit, unless, like a collet, I needed a different size. I don’t find cutter changes any different than router table bit changes. One thing that will be a game changer for your shaper is to add an outboard fence.

[@marka9292]

I have a custom shop and I do lots of one offs the shaper is so much easier and more accurate than the router. I can change the cutter head on my shaper from the top and front of the machine so it takes the same time as a router. I have a power feed and that is great for what I do you should consider one.

[@kennethholmes9315]

You may want to consider a power feed. I’ve found that the constant speed makes for clean cutting. Have a good one

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Just ordered one!

[@seanpatterson1609]

The production quality of this video was fantastic. Your intro and outro were new to me, and they were cool. Solid content as always, Sir. Thank you.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Thank you for watching!

[@retrobuilds3729]

Thankfully I was able to pick up an older model for $300 and man it’s a game changer👌mostly use it to run the raised panel profiles for doors

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yeah I think that's the best case use for them.

[@robertkoretsky6170]

Nice video, thanks! I run a 3 HP Delta shaper, with several different trim profiles that I had custom ground out of HSS . The profiles are fairly large, much bigger than a router bit that you could buy. I also run a tongue-and-groove set of cutters for flooring. But the big advantage I find for all of this is using a power feeder! It gives you smoother, consistent profile cuts, and you can process hundreds of feet of material in a short amount of time through the shaper. But setup time is the big limiting factor, in terms of time, with adding the power feeder to the shaper. I also have a router table with a Triton in it.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Shapers are fantastic

[@stillwaterwoodworks]

A few points from my experience with shapers - 1) A shaper without a spindle lock is pretty rare/odd; i’ve never seen one without some type of spindle lock, whether it be a pin locking the quill or a foot brake or lever lock, etc. Can’t imagine not having one and would be a good reason to throw the machine in the bin 🙈. Using one with a proper spindle lock makes all the difference and you can make cutter changes just as fast or faster and more accurate (on height) than RT. 2) I am a micro shop / solo professional and have 2 shapers and no RT and do not typically do “production” work and still have tons of uses for my shapers. It’s just as much about accuracy and cut quality than production for me. 3) Cutters, particularly carbide but even good quality HSS, last waaaaay longer than router bits, generally speaking, so the cost comparison is apples to oranges and you often come out ahead on quality shaper cutters if its something that is seeing consistent use over the long haul. 4) Power feeders make all the difference (in safety, efficiency and accuracy) for a lot of the work you will do on a shaper and I would certainly recommend a quality feeder if you plan on keeping a shaper around. 5) I have bought each one of my shapers (had 4 of them in total so far) for less than what a high end RT would cost; talking about used industrial grade machines that will last multiple lifetimes. This video is about a new machine, but do not discount or overlook used industrial for top quality and value. 6) The shaper and its overall versatility lives and dies by the quality of its fence. The fence on this machine looks to be aluminum (?) and plastic mostly, which may not hold up so well over time in terms of precision and durability. It is worth selecting a shaper that has a solid and well designed fence that you don’t have to fight for precision or flexibility. 7) 6 points was probably enough.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yeah this machine is not the one for me.

[@Hog-g2z]

Hi 👋, just found your channel, you were saying about changing router cutters very quickly compared with spin the mould shaper cutters, I couldn’t understand why you had to go to the back of the cabinet and you took it at the main shaft, we just need to loosen off the nut or the Bolt on top of the shaft remove the cutter off the shaft, I’ve been in business for nearly 50 years, my last shaper machine, I can’t actually take the shaft out and replace it with a router cutter shaft, and it has got a tilting head as well, By changing the belt and the drive off the bottom of the shaft you then have the ability to run router cutters up to 20,000 rpm I think, You can drop the speed down, but changing the Pull belt size, and yes, shaper cutter bits are very expensive, I think in my two tall cabinets I’ve got somewhere between 20 and £30,000 worth of cutters, might even be more that I’ve accumulated over my nearly 50 years of work, plus I have a WADKIN EKA 4/5 head, machine,

[@tonyworkswood]

Hi Coffey. I agree with you. A router table is great for a weekend warrior or someone who is not In the competitive world of a fast production output deadline. You really need a shaper if you are upping your production enabling you to beat the competition on surface finish, linear output and price fast and economically. Tony

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Definitely for production

[@postholedigger8726]

Router tables are fine as long as you don't try to use them as a shaper. Shapers are fine as long as you don't try to uses them as a router table.Despite the similarity in their appearance, they are two different machines that work well if used as designed. Shapers use induction motors. They will either run at the selected RPM or they will stall out. If they stall out, a higher HP motor is required. Shapers are designed to power large diameter cutters and produce high torque at a lower RPM.. They max out at about 10,000 RPM and do not spin fast enough to run small router bits. Routers use universal motors and slow down under a load. Regardless of the sales hype, when routers run at a slower RPM to accommodate large diameter cutters, they lose power. To work around this the operator typically starts the router at a higher RPM. Once the wood is fed into the cutter the router slows down. It is not a good option to start a large panel cutter at 20,000 then have the load slow it down to 10,000 RPM. Large cutters are not designed to spin that fast. Small cutters do not work properly at low RPMs.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Exactly

[@cuebj]

Perfect comment. In my teens, from 1969, we had a big old spindle moulder and Record Multiplane hand tool for routing fine detail grooves and profiles. When I went back to scratch building kitchens on site as a part-time extra earner during 1990s recession, I got a small router for simple plywood panel doors, 6mm mortices & tenons, round-overs: I thought of it as a much cheaper powered version of the Record Multiplane. It was the price that made me get that little Bosch green router and crude milling stand - a brilliant piece of kit, especially for the price

[@S1D1T1DO]

Killed my 2nd 3hp router motor trying to cut a simple profile using maple. Even with multiple step cuts, it just can't do it. Glad I made the switch.

[@BruceAUlrich]

Good info! I've never really looked into a shaper that much.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

They are a better cut and can do much more. But there are power considerations and size constraints.

[@robertduncan4346]

My Laguna shaper has a spindle lock. Makes changing cutters a breeze.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yeah this is definitely an oversight on this machine.

[@maikolmoya660]

This is incredibly helpful.

[@rohanblues]

I just finished building the handrail on my deck kzbin.infoUgkxfQ5_mgwq6PcudJvAH25t-I4D-3cTPz4z and used this great little router to clean up the top rail before the final sanding and stain. It was light weight but packed lots of power. Either size battery didn't seem to make it top heavy and I'm a 64 yr old women so I really appreciated how easy it was to use...................... CORDLESS only way to go !!

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Festool

[@youtuber6185]

If I am looking to do tongue and groove on 1/2" pvc or mdf panels, will a shaper be precise enough or would I need to move to a double end tenoner. Will do about 500 panels a day.

[@MurraydeLues]

I used a similar spiral cutter (80mm dia x 130 long) on a Format4 CNC machine. It was scary but man could that thing remove material. As a test I ran a full width cut through some 50mm cedar across grain. Just turned the wood into chips. Go to tool for sizing doors on all 4 faces in one pass. Just made certain I had a 1.5mm radius on the corners. Never got blow out. Inserts would last about 12 months.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

I gotta get that for my CNC!

[@වෙනස්මිනිස්සු]

Grate video. I was looking for a good video of a shaper for beginners. Would like to see some shapers in action. how it support for doors, Handrails etc.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

There will be more content soon for sure.

[@dinkles_woodshop]

Great overview. I love the direction switch on the shaper. With my router table, I'll often have to choose to make a climb cut or risk tearout. Lose lose situation. But with my hobbyist one off projects, I could never justify a shaper... also... they scare the crap out of me!!!

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

They are scary for sure. Other viewers pointed out that you can get used shapers for fairly cheap. And something I didn't cover is that you can use router bits of the shaper. But, ultimately, you can do a lot with a router table in a hobby shop and even in a one off custom shop. Like many tools, it's very relative.

[@StoneyMeyerhoeffer]

I put the pwncnc spindle kit on my router table. It fits in a sweet spot for sure. But the expense isn't for everyone.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Oh wild

[@stevesiefken6432]

Best explanation I’ve heard! Thanks! 👍🏻

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jronmanbuilds]

How do you guys flush trim curved pieces with your router table or Shaper? I was trying to flush trim some smaller parts and it was trying to throw the pieces which was not safe. I think I am going to have to make some kind of work holding sled to hold the smaller parts more securely.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Did you try a starter pin?

[@jxk7712]

I have both and my router table is twice the footprint. Good video, thanks

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yeah I definitely think the more you look at it the space difference is negligible.

[@davydmir6565]

Hi, great video! I've been reading the comments on how your shaper doesn't have a spindle lock? That's really odd! All the shapers/ spindle moulders I've worked with have one! Is there a way for you to use two spanners above the table, in the video there appears to some kind of nut at the base of the spindle shaft, kind of like the older routers without a spindle lock? You could use one spanner to lock the spindle and the other to loosen the tooling

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

It's crazy that they don't have it but unfortunately no you can't use spanners up top.

[@davydmir6565]

@CoffeyCustomBuilds ah that's a shame, looking forward to see what you do with the shaper!

[@ackmartin60]

You missed one of then most important differences and that is that the cutting geometry is very different and much better on a shaper. Because the cutters are much larger in diameter for the same depth of cut from the fence the cutting edge exits the wood much more parallel to the edge of the board. This gives you a much cleaner cut. I find it takes about the same amount of time to change a cutter head in the shaper as it does to change a router bit in a router table.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Very important for sure

[@JeffFontecchio]

Great information, thanks for sharing!

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Glad it was helpful!

[@Joesmith-fu4ps]

Do you really need a festool sander? I have and use both a shaper and router table.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yes I do

[@DovetailTimberworks]

Yes, I'll echo a few things Jared said. There are reasons why all hobby shops in Europe have a spindle moulder (shaper). It's because they're immensely versatile, capable and produce higher quality results. HSS knives in a limiter blocks will give you thousands of linear feet of product, with better results, safer than a router table and often cost you less than good quality router bits. Most shapers have way faster head change out than yours. I would say yours is not representative of most shapers. Shapers produce chips not sawdust because they cut, not scrape. Time savings can be achieved with stackable cutters that enable more work achieved on one pass, but there will also be MANY things you used to do on other machines that you now so on the shaper because it does it faster, more reliably and to higher degrees of quality and precision. I'm avoiding "how to" content on my channel but do have a lot of tooling and "features/benefits" type discussion if you're interested. Also, purchase Stevenson's " A spindle moulder handbook" and it will blow your mind what your shaper can do for you! Have fun, play save and enjoy!

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

No arguments on any of these points. Doing this video has made me realize I need to get another shaper. One with an arbor lock is necessary and the fact this doesn't have one is crazy.

[@DovetailTimberworks]

@@CoffeyCustomBuilds It is a bit odd! Once you graduate to a larger, more capable and versatile machine you will come to see it as the swiss army knife of your shop especially with a power feeder. The feeder not only keeps the digits further away but also enables some operations you couldn't do otherwise and increases the quality of results on others. I spent years as a hobby guy and my shaper was key even then. Now that I do this for a living, I couldn't imagine doing it without my shapers! Feel free to reach out off line if you want some thoughts on machines/techniques etc, I'm happy to help!

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

@@DovetailTimberworks appreciate the offer.

[@oliver299d]

not sure why its such an ordeal to change the cutters on that shaper, I have 2 one older German and an older American one, and I put a pin in the shaft and take the nut off and it the cutters slide right off. Would also suggest a stock feeder for the shaper

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

It doesn't have an arbor lock. It's a shortcoming of the shaper. I'm replacing it.

[@jeremyt1917]

Thanks for the comparison. I'm looking into shapers that allow the usage of 1/2 inch router bits. Does the Harvey you have come with that option?

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

It does!

[@postholedigger8726]

A small shaper such as the 3/4 HP Grizzly G0510Z works great with the large 1/2 inch shank panel cutting bits. Because they use an induction motor, they do not change their RPM under a load. If more power is required, it is easy to swap out the existing motor with one that has a higher HP. A number of companies like Harbor Freight carried the same machine marketed under a different brand name. Here is a video of one in action: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jnyTi4Bjdr6imqc

[@571Frederik]

is the fence setup on your shaper from Harvey or Hammer - Felder?

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

It's stock Harvey

[@jayg6857]

I've been looking at the HW303 shaper myself but could not find any independent reviews of this model. Were you able to find any reviews of it and how did you arrrive at this model for your purchase decision?

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Full transparency: they sent this shaper free. I will say I'm not happy that it doesn't have an arbor lock. It's a huge bottle neck to the process. I will be bringing another shaper into the shop because of it.

[@jayg6857]

@@CoffeyCustomBuilds Thanks for the info. If you're just using the 1/2 or 1/4 router collets can you change bits with a pair of wrenches without removing the entire spindle?

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

@@jayg6857 yessir. I'm going to keep a 1/2"/1/4" collet on this and use the other for big cutters.

[@jayg6857]

@@CoffeyCustomBuilds Thanks again. I may still consider this model since it appears to come with the 3/4 and 5/4 spindles as well as the 1/4 and 1/2 router collets. A number of the other 3hp comparable shapers sell those as add-ons. I'd rather not save $200 on the initial price then have to spend $300 to get all the parts necessary to run it. I'm just a home hobbyist, not a production shop so the ability to put a cutter in is a nice to have option. I was looking at a high end router table like a Jessem, Woodpeckers, or Rockler but once you start pushing into small shaper pricing it makes a shaper look like a better option.

[@jayg6857]

I don't know what your arrangement with the manufacturer is, but if you were to post a review of the HW303 it would be one if the first ones out there. I only happened to notice the model number on the side of the unit in your video to see it was one I was interested in learning more about.

[@postholedigger8726]

One way to understand this a little better is to analyze the speed of the cutter where the cutter contacts the wood. This will take a little bit of math. Pi * Cd * RPM = cutter speed in inches per minute. Pi = 3.14159 Cutter diameter = 1/4 of an inch RPM = 20,000 3.14159 * .25 * 20,000 = 15,708 surface inches per minute. ?o get surfaces inches per second divide by 60. 15708/60 = 262 surface inches per second This means that a router with a 1/4 inch diameter bit turning at 20,000 RPM will cover 262 inches in one second. One of my shapers has 7000 R)PM and 10,000 RPM. Using a 4 inch diameter cutter at 7,000 RPM gives this result 3.14159 * 4 * 7,000 = 87,965 surface inches per minute. Dividing by 60 gives 1466 surface inches per second. That is roughly 5 1/2 times the surface inches a 20,000 RPM router can deliver. To equal that, a router with a 1/4 inch cutter would have to turn at approximately 112,000 RPM. This is why routers with smaller cutters have to have a lower feed rate than a shaper with a larger cutte to achieve the same finish. If you take a look at an LA Weaver Shaper System producing a complete kitchen cabinet door in less than 4 minutes, you can understand why shapers are used.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yeah exactly

[@EvanDunville]

As much as i would personally love to have a shaper, I'm a Hobbyist and i cant really justify the floor space and cost.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

It's definitely a huge consideration. And having the tooling within your means is important to recognize.

[@liquidrockaquatics3900]

Does anyone have any feedback on Montgomery Ward Power Kraft shaper 84-2476? One came up on marketplace for $250

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

How many HP?

[@liquidrockaquatics3900]

@@CoffeyCustomBuilds I haven’t seen it yet. The information plate on the front says 115v 10a so I don’t think it’s real high

[@satchelsieniewicz5824]

wow big opportunity in the sharper bit market. those are not complicated parts

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

You're talking manufacturing custom cutters?

[@d.k.1394]

Looks nice

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Thanks!

[@nickcrivello2651]

Some shapers have better tooling change mechanisms, the old 1970’s Scm machine I have has a foot actuated spindle lock which makes tooling changes a snap. Also has three spindles, one of which is for router bits. Not sure what a router can do that the shaper can’t. I’ve got that same Amana bit, it’s a beast and the cutter inserts mean that it’ll last forever. 😎

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yeah the tooling on this shaper is definitely not ideal. It's frustrating honestly. As a person with a shop full of tools and the proper power, I largely agree with you. The only consideration is not everyone watching videos like this have 220 in their shops so a shaper isn't an option for them.

[@nickcrivello2651]

@@CoffeyCustomBuilds Was lucky enough to have the subpanel located inside the garage and thus makes for easy wiring. Though I was one of the idiots who went the phase converter route and now many of my machines are three phase. You can score the heavy, industrial grade stuff second hand for pennies on the dollar once you're setup. The SCM shaper I spoke of is actually a 9hp, 1200lb monster. 😉

[@jar944]

@@nickcrivello2651 t130?

[@nickcrivello2651]

@@jar944 It's a t120c

[@cuebj]

You can take a router to your daughter's house to cut a few round-overs and grooves on site. Watch her and your son-in-law be amazed at the transformation of a pine draw front to improve the looks of an Ikea Pax wardrobe! He is now inspired to take up fine woodwork as a hobby. Several decades ago, a trained woodworker was very impressed with my cutting a pair of simple mdf circles with small router on trammel on site in our church. He said, "I want one of those." Another old pro mocked my DIY grade multicutter till I got a more powerful but crude DeWalt. He started borrowing it all the time!

[@rjkooy100]

on selecting the video I thought you meant the Shaper Origin 😀

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

You need a Shaper Origin.

[@kevinb6102]

Good info here

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Glad it was helpful!

[@stucorbett7905]

Now you need a good Steff Powerfeeder.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

I got a nice Comatic and a bigger shaper!

[@MattFormoso]

not all shapers use hsk tooling.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Yeah they're not all the same for sure

[@postholedigger8726]

This video shows a small shaper using large 1/2 shank panel cutter bits. When cutters of this size are used in a router table, the cutters slow down under a load. With the shaper the cutters run at a consistent speed. Even though the video is narrated in Chinese, the visual information shows how a small shaper works better with larger diameter cutters.. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fHiQdJiuedWHqdU

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

That's great!

[@michaelarmbrust8415]

Why would you change the spindle to change cutters. Just take the retaining nut off and Change the cutter. That is how I have done it for the last 50 years

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Different size arbor.

[@duaynenaugle561]

A shaper is a versatile machine. It can also be used with router bits In both 1/4” and 1/2”.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

They are great machines

[@kenf2662]

The question is for me , How many shapers do I need.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

Upwards of 1.

[@moldings_etc]

I actually have to disagree on your time to change shaper cutters. As long as you don't have to change the spindle, they are quicker in my experience. The spindle height doesn't change and the cutterhead just slides off and the new one on, then the height is already set. I have to agree that you need a powerfeeder, way safer and gives a more consistent cut. If all you do is template work then skip it. One other benefit of a shaper over router, the carbide on shaper cutters is usually way heavier/ thicker, meaning it can be sharpened many times before having to be replaced. Also as mentioned already, the insert profile heads are a dream to use for those short runs of weird stuff.

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

I agree with you. The comment is more specific to this shaper. It doesn't have an arbor lock. It's ridiculous.

[@HarrisonFord11]

First! Haha. Haven’t watched yet but I’m sure it’s a solid video!

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

🤣🤣 thanks for the confidence!

[@XxMalabooo]

you mentioned adding wings, where would I buy cast iron wings or aluminum?

[@CoffeyCustomBuilds]

I actually am not sure. I have an email out asking the same question. I'll report back.