Complainers VS. Vulnerable Narcissists

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[@sushmayen]

Complaining is only part of it. They can't see any wrong in themselves but see only wrong in you. Staying away is the only option.

[@andrewterry8092]

Yes, absolutely. They are always justified in their complaints, but no one is ever justified complaining about them. They are also looking for people who react to their complaints, to identify people they can subject to more complaints i.e. manipulation. Don't ever think they want to resolve the complaint, as they are not complaining for resolution. In fact, they will just find something even bigger and better to complain about.

[@tamaravena5410]

Bingo

[@francesbernard2445]

Unless they are head of the department you need to reach out to after experiencing narcissistic abuse which involved domestic violence too. Then while being in a double bind we have no choice about how often we need to complain to them until justice is finally being served or else risk being charged as an accomplice to child abuse or be charged as an accomplice for some other kind of crime that the narcissist you married continued or is continuing to do while getting away with it. In that case then staying away from all of their flying monkeys is the only way to take that ordinarily excellent advice. Flying monkeys who tend to offer the confusing advice to stay and leave the perpetrator both at the same time only so they can while barely lifting a finger to help for real then claim to have saved all so 'concerned' including the perpetrator/predator for pay. For pay while they are always careful to be going by the book about all statutory limitations on the lawbooks too just so they can maybe get to report back to their like litigous minded friends from the same kind of crowds while getting away with calling us more names behind our backs while planning to maybe charge us with pejury or whatever next too.

[@tenningale]

Exactly. When they weaponize personal information against people, don't take any accountability, don't self-reflect, and you see the broader issues (gaslighting, manipulating, lying, emotional dysregulation, placing blame and judgment on others), thriving off drama, gossip, everything "wrong" with everybody else...

[@LSMH528Hz]

💖 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXW3p2yCqZqKj9U

[@dustyjackson7584]

I used to be that chronic complainer! But there was one thing that got me out of that miserable complainer mode. I walked away from the narcissists in my family and in my career that were feeding my unhappiness. I took charge of my life, and that has made all the difference. I can't fix my family. I can't fix what they bring with them. I can only fix myself by walking away. Once I got away from them, I was able to regain my own control, my own agency. I was able to change the things that were making me miserable, and now I can honestly say that I like my life

[@zachgardner2927]

Good for you! It's not easy for most of us to turn on family, but if they're the problem, you have to make a tough decision and the right one. We don't get to choose our parents and family members, but we do get to choose what we tolerate from them. Beware of what you tolerate, you're teaching them how to treat you!

[@cloudwalker8266]

The help-rejecting complainer types are the most exhausting of all. They don't want a solution. They just want an audience.

[@orielwiggins2225]

And the hard part of that is that most all of us don't want someone who isn't willing to be part of the emotional support to offer solutions. There's a time for problem solving, and that's very different than empathy. But you're right, chronically looking for someone to validate that they are just stuck and powerless is so draining.

[@maxsupernova]

A while back, I heard these people described as askholes, and I think the term fits perfectly.

[@SigneKristineHermind]

Well said.

[@DivineFemmeJen]

True! I have some family who are like this. It’s insufferable to deal with. I often distance myself from anyone who’s like this. They’re full of constant negative energy.

[@Kiddo_X]

They DO exist😮.

[@HJustme855]

It's worth remembering that there are periods in people's lives when due to circumstances its almost impossible for a person to be happy. This shouldn't be confused with a personality disorder. Doing so could be unjustly harmful.

[@orielwiggins2225]

Bingo! Truth!

[@HJustme855]

@@orielwiggins2225 💯👍

[@LSMH528Hz]

Kinda makes me think about people who get pestered by narcissists 24/7 could go into complain mode.

[@HJustme855]

@@LSMH528Hz For some victims it's part of getting the narc out of their system. For others life can bring a catalogue of hardship. Neither deserve a label instead of empathy.

[@CelyneSCI]

Sometimes, i think complainers just need someone to hear them out.. while a vulnerable narc demands that someone to solve the problem for them.

[@orielwiggins2225]

Or just validate that they are the biggest victim and have no choices but to stay stuck. It's hard cuz you're exactly right, even when I'm legitimately complaining, I don't want someone to fix it, I want to feel like someone understands how difficult something is, WHILE I'm working to fix it, and that simplistic solutions don't always work in my situation. So it can be really difficult to suss out what is someone who is genuinely having a hard time and needs compassion, like we ALL do, or what is someone playing the victim, especially if you don't get the other side of the story, as is the case more often than not.

[@jameshunt6414]

I think often good faith actor complainers don't want someone to hear them out, they are victims of serious abuse, for which their persecutors have not been held accountable and they want justice, which they haven't got, it is a natural reaction. If you think that people need to hear them out, maybe you haven't been on the receiving end of the same level of abuse. Perhaps you should be thankful of those who complain in good faith, as they may be like the birds who warn the other animals a predator is coming. Like so many things referring to narcissist abuse, it can be twisted so it looks like the victim has the problem, e.g they burned all their bridges, from one point of view, but from another point of view they are going grey rock.

[@sueramirez5906]

Important difference

[@orielwiggins2225]

@@jameshunt6414 this is so true. Or they were isolated and too many would be supporters and activists for their cause have turned enablers of the abuse. You put this so well. Thank you. And this is why I think it's complex. Some of us have so many layers, severe abuse and attempting to get real help and protect others, and have situations that do just need empathy, all the way to just trying to avoid unhelpful people, and getting labeled complainers.

[@audbaltzersenrameckers8832]

❤❤

[@jessicaabbott10]

In my experience, complainers will at least be receptive to some sort of solution whereas a narcissist will oppose ANY solution.

[@cloudwalker8266]

And then there's the martyr narcissist type who frames their complaints as gross exaggerations. Even though they barely lifted a finger for you, they'll tell everyone they saved your life.

[@janenerbeaner1673]

Yeah that's my ex. He left me in August after 15 years cus I had quit giving him supply. Even through the separation he's acted like he's been a total hero and made so many sacrifices so that the break up would be easier for me. He keeps acting generous in small ways and then trying to screw me over financially in way bigger ways.

[@orielwiggins2225]

@@janenerbeaner1673 ugh. So familiar

[@LSMH528Hz]

Or when they ruined your outlook in life with their ill behavior they "gift" you some money, usually a pittance, and expect you to stfu forever and play along with the smiley smiley fake façade. Or else your being ungrateful and blah blah how dare you complain after all we've done for you etc etc. I think they usually call everybody a complainer that has issues with them. It must be, because they know nothing is wrong with them, right ? And they also know as long as you keep complaining you're not getting anywhere and that's how they like it. Maybe that's why many people get stuck in it. Not seeing your complaints you have with narcissists or any grievances for that matter, any issue you'dd like to discuss, will never be acknowledged or even received or considered even. Because "you always just complain" because your a vulnerable narcissist or something. Like some obsessed cult, No complaining or else your a target.

[@Wentletrap213]

So you’ve met my mom.

[@Tania-rg7jp]

😮😮😮😮😮😮😮😮!!!

[@jameshunt6414]

There is a danger in not complaining enough, one can end up on the wrong end of bad treatment because people see you as someone they can get away with seriously abusing. Then when something really serious happens to you, you will be viewed as a chronic complainer.

[@andrewterry8092]

What? If you don't complain enough, how can you be a chronic complainer when something serious happens?

[@skinchampagne]

Confronting an issue and complaining are two different things.

[@jameshunt6414]

@andrewterry8092 legitimate question. I think it speaks a bit to the other comment below. So I agree there's a difference between complaining and confronting a problem, and that is primarily how and to whom one complains. In my experience if one makes too much of an effort to not complain, that leads to not confronting problems, which leads to people taking liberties with you and means a greater amount of baggage mounts up, so there is the potential that horrible things will be done to you and you will end up ruined, the mind will collapse under the strain of this, if you are strong you will complain endlessly and if you are less strong you will be left rocking in a corner somewhere.

[@HJustme855]

Yes, you are right. Give people, albeit unintentionally the impression that you are too easy going or can be abused, and they will.

[@LSMH528Hz]

This is why narcissists give people a reason to complain. They can do wth they want and someone else will have to either stfu up or be framed a complainer. Works both way's for them.

[@AlanChambers]

I had counseling today and I think I suggestive sold a book to my counselor. I talked about my history and all the wonderful things I learned from this channel. I also mentioned the healing community and the upcoming (or is it live now?) teaching community for counselors. He said that Dr. Ramani was mentioned several times by other clients. The word is getting out and people are getting the help that is needed. This entire community gives you a virtual hug for all the work that you do and who you are for the survivor and thriver of your own life’s experience.

[@manapeace]

I wrestled with this question regarding a family member my entire life. This question was recently answered when I calmly explained how their abusive behavior hurts me… and the response was to re-write history, deny reality, and run away in terror. (explosive shame response)

[@tenningale]

Sorry to hear that. It's scary when you call them out because they do not take accountability and need to project their issues externally. And there are almost always smear campaigns, when they line up the flying monkeys, isolate you, and turn everybody against you.

[@robinantonio8870]

Yep, the response is how you know . I complain about my narc's abuse of myself to vent, but I am not a narc.

[@SinfulAeon]

"They aren't just the carrots, they are whole stew." So true. I had a serial complainer at work who was a vulnerable narcissist. At first I just thought it was complaining but then the complaining became jealousy about someone else's success and how everyone in the office weren't treated equally. And then the complaining took on another level where she would complain about the same person but secretly to each person in the office to slowly get everyone to turn against the person. Its crazy because she poisoned the whole work environment with her toxicity. And it wasn't just complaining, it was putting people down behind their backs, saying insensitive "jokes" to their faces, and constantly seeking validation and admiration from everyone. Finally after 3 years of wreaking havoc, she got fired and then the work place became so much better and way more productive.

[@rosiereal]

Amazing that this person was finally fired! Yay!

[@LSMH528Hz]

That's interesting, that sounds just like the recent Dr. R video on how the presence of one narcissist ruins the entire group.

[@Petruss67]

Complainers don't misuse you just for their own needs... social interaction is more in balance

[@abdulwahidnagi861]

Dr. Ramani Your book completely destroyed me and then rebuilt me all over again Thank you Your book was the compass of leaving a poisonous, toxic, destructive 13 yr old relationship You touched so many people’s hearts and healed so many people’s souls without even knowing they exist Again Thank you

[@ZGrrrl8]

Yez, she has! And yes I relate to yr every word! It’s a great feeling to not feel so alone❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹

[@Syuzannochka11]

I just wanna say that you’re very strong, and I hope you’ll find that strength enough to overcome the post relationship challenges Sending you love and positive energy, praying for you and for the all survivors ❤️

[@justlivinglife465]

Thanks for this video, I think this distinction helps a lot. Very often narcissists will actually smear people as “negative” when they’re pretty much the cause of the unhappiness! I’ve met a few pretty negative, maybe pessimistic people who were so decent and kind and empathetic. Partly they are frustrated that things can’t just be easier or that life is a pain sometimes. They can be a bit draining, but they didn’t display any narcissistic traits or behaviours.

[@ootenba5910]

This!!!

[@carolinelaronda4523]

Complainers are usually just highly sensitive people that don’t feel like this world was meant for them to thrive in bc it’s so hard when everything bothers you and other people skip through life with little consequences . I find myself keeping to myself and just not speaking on what bothers me so I don’t get labeled a complainer or negative .. ugh I hate that . My dad complains a lot to the point where it’s uncomfortable for me to be around him but he’s not a narc . My mom however is a vulnerable narcissist and is a bottomless pit of unmet needs . She’s made an art out of complaining and emotional manipulation to get what she wants so I don’t know who’s the bigger asshole me for not speaking up or her for complaining and always getting what she wants.

[@marief3007]

Sounds familiar ❤

[@liambraithewaite6415]

Context plays a huge role too. I had a series of really traumatic things happen to me in the space of 1.5years where it was a domino effect of narcissistic friends that all turned abusive. I was completely traumatised and complaining and vending was the only way I knew to get the poison out of my system. I was terrified of driving people away and in fact it revealed some narcissistic friends in that their lack of capacity to be willing to support me going through abuse (they instead added to it). It took me quite a while to get over it. Yes I would have been labelled as a complainer, but sometimes thats what the person needs to do to process what they have been through too

[@erinward2983]

Context is everything sometimes

[@Rut-vi7iz]

I think it is also worth considering the backstory of the one labeling the other as the complainer. There are people in our midst who stay on the shallow surface of life, because they prefer to avoid facing their own demons or pain. They project constant positivity, not because it is real, but because they can't face pain, and certainly dont want to be reminded of it from a "complainer." My ex inlaws always acted toward me as if I were a chronic complainer. I learned to say nothing in their presence that was the least bit sad or hard. Years later, the truth came out that there was hideous sexual abuse taking place within their walls, and they tried to project themselves as the perfectly faith filled family who handled all problems with a positive attitude. I believe it is prudent to understand a complainer, but it is equally prudent to understand those who act continuously positive. Both attitudes could be an exaggeration of their reality.

[@orielwiggins2225]

Bingo!

[@HJustme855]

There is definitely prudence in complaining. I can't argue with that.

[@Rut-vi7iz]

@@HJustme855 absolutely. One should chose very wisely with whom they allow themselves to be vulnerable. Many tuned in on this channel have had their every trait thrown back at them as invalid, too much, wrong somehow. So I think many of us who have suffered with narcissists probably have been labeled a complainer, and that is a gaslight, not reality.

[@HJustme855]

@@Rut-vi7iz Wise words. Thank you 🙏

[@marief3007]

Yes❤

[@jayj7340]

I actually had this exact situation at work this week. I work with one girl who’s much younger than me, but she complains when she feels stressed out or tired, and it usually goes like “I have so much to do and I don’t know how I’m going to handle it.” But when she feels better, she’s much more social and focused. This other guy, however, complains about everyone else at the job, but never says it’s his fault. He always tries to go “above and beyond”, but he always needs to tell other people how much they’re not doing as he gets it done. Everyone complains, but narcissists are still narcissists.

[@moniquejackson7741]

Brilliant. I'm sure I've thought chronic complainers were narcissistic. How they respond to calling them out is a brilliant way to see the difference. Thank you!

[@marycampeau9378]

complaining is how my family communicates

[@tjbrown6019]

They get mad if you hold them accountable as well.

[@siminabuta]

My God,you are describing my colleagues at work,exactly as you explain,complaining all the time,all 4 of them!I'm doing the impossible to quit.Thank you doctor Ramani,you rock❤

[@orielwiggins2225]

Thank you again, I love these more nuanced ones as I've been struggling with these kinda things for a while. Especially when they are things that overlap with those of us who've grown up with, and been in long term relationships with narcissistic folks. The research around negativity bias in those who've had many traumas is helpful. CPTSD from this kinda long term exposure to abusive behavior, and the fallout of standing up to it, definitely falls into that category. The hard thing I've run into is being categorized like this by folks I thought were close and supportive to me, and would ask how I'm doing or how some challenge in my life is going and then pounce with this kinda judgemental criticism. Things in my life ARE hard and the positivity police really make it that much harder when we can't be honest about how it's going. I've since learned they were projecting and or just can't handle anything that's not peaches and cream from anyone else but their own trouble, for which they expect empathy and compassion. 😢

[@ruby-qv5bd]

This is perfectly said. I can relate.

[@sarahanderson4300]

I can also relate. At one of the lowest points/hardest parts of your life, you get eye rolls and dismissed as just being negative and complaining. I'm tired of the toxic positivity that's always pushed that encourages people to distance themselves from someone who might just need a genuine listening ear, not judgment. It is exhausting, but has helped me filter out the people who aren't truly friends and family members who could care less that I'm really struggling. It's lonely at times, but I've learned to take it to God instead. 🙏🏻

[@orielwiggins2225]

@@sarahanderson4300 I feel that so much. I hope you are somehow rewarded with genuine people who get it and can be that emotional support that we ALL need. That is science, but the way. There's a lot of research out there hidden under all the toxic positivity junk that shows how basic a human need empathy and compassion and genuine attunement are. And not just as an infant. But as a society we've shunned it, which I personally think is just those in the highest ranks who refuse to heal and be real.

[@sarahanderson4300]

@orielwiggins2225 Thank you! I have a few people in my life who genuinely seem to care, but I still hold back because it's re-traumatizung to share then get that negative reaction after you've already been through trauma (the cause of the initial "complaining"). I understand we all have our own lives and our own problems, but people show you who they truly are when they drop like flies in the midst of someone else's turmoil. I've learned to be comfortable saying goodbye to fairweather friends and family members. I also grew up with narcissists and was in a long-term relationship with one who eventually went on a smear campaign before the discard. When we never get that compassion and empathy from the right people, we often look for it in the wrong people. It's been quite the roller coaster, but with it many lessons that have made me stronger and wiser. I agree with you. There are lots of unhealed folks in higher ranks who look down at those who are authentic and seek that authenticity in others. It's sad how people are encouraged and programmed to disregard other's needs if deemed in any way "negative."

[@orielwiggins2225]

@@sarahanderson4300 yes, this! I'm so glad to hear. I'm also learning the same thing (over the years of very similar to what you described). Tho tbh, there's a lot of trauma around letting go of folks too. Even those who have wronged me so many times in terrible ways. But I'm getting there, little better all the time. And you're right. It's really sad how much we're being told to just abandon folks who need anything cuz it's labeled "negative ", all while also being told we need to be connected and community coz we can't do life fully alone or hyper independent. It just creates such huge selfishness issues.

[@hopegrable]

Thank you for this video, Dr. Ramani. The struggle is REAL! If they're refusing to go to therapy because they don't believe it will help them feel better and they use their problems like a weapon where they take on the role of victim and proceed to villainize you for not caring enough or not doing enough, that feels like vulnerable narcissism to me, not just a chronic complainer. Vulnerable narcissist will also compete with others about how they have it worse than the other person does and even shame them for thinking their problems were worse than theirs. As they progress into their sunset years, they become more miserly and cantankerous with those who still come around to check on them. You might be confronted with accusations like, "The only reason why your here is because you want my money!" These narcissists are truly horrible creatures, and I feel sorry for the caregivers who have to put up with the nasty banter they are met with everyday. They don't deserve it.

[@Akcd11r2002]

Based on my own experience and observations, complaining seems to be a learned behavior from being raised by narcissistic parents and the constant devaluation that comes from that. They need permission for everything because they were dominated by their parents over every little thing and allowed to do nothing under their own agency. Now that they are on their own they don’t know how anything works and have no starting point to move forward from due to being codependent all their life.

[@madge2114]

Yes, I was just thinking the same, that complaining is a learned behavior, a defense mechanism to ward off the narcs. And learning to be more agreeable only works if you can stay away from them, otherwise they take advantage.

[@mspheeincali7418]

Where complaining meets an abuse victim. If we dare speak up about the severe problems that are blamed on us but are actually the abuse, we are called complainers and shut down. Then we are told and believe we are ungrateful complainers who should just be grateful. Then when the time comes to get help we are silenced because people don’t want to hear the horrors we endured. And again told to stop complaining and move on. Where does complaining factor in when rumination is a part of the process of the revelation of horrors? Why do we have to be shamed and isolated because we are called complainers when trapped in cptsd. When vulnerable narcissists and complainers shut down our concerns and we are told we are complainers. They use that to silence us too. Then we feel we can’t talk to anyone about our problems or concerns because they will dismiss us as complainers. Since we know how badly we feel when they are complaining, we don’t want to cause another to feel like that. Another way we are silenced this time before speaking. We suffer in silence because we are called complainers, which may very well be an abuse victim trying to process the hell they endured. Alone. Same as when abused.

[@wintermatherne2524]

If you have a legit mental illness, there are professionals for that. If you have family and friends, they should support you. Don’t expect it from acquaintances and strangers. Unconditional support is not their job. That is an obligation of a friend.

[@maggiesalle2256]

In reality you are not alone. I was abused too, and I had similar experiences.

[@generally.speaking]

I thought of this, too.

[@indigoechos6796]

​@@wintermatherne2524the sad reality is most people just don't care

[@BemaSeatAcademy]

That's what's happening in my marriage right now and hes leaving me

[@Frozen518]

Goldilocks Syndrome/Effect is a great way to put it lol. I have a friend who I adore (NOT a narcissist by any means!) and it can be a touch exhausting to be around, particularly when they're stressed. We're having fun, but it would be better if the drinks were better, or I wish the weather was like this, or I wish it was just these people here, or yada yada. The difference is they can catch themselves, acknowledge they're being a whiny baby, and we can still have a blast. It can definitely make them seem a touch adolescent at times but I think the important key here is they respond well to someone telling them they're being a bit of a downer. It might still hurt their feelings, it make make them pout a touch, but more often than not, they pull themselves together and adapt and have a good time. I imagine a true narcissist would explode or go "death by a thousand cuts" if you tried to tell them that

[@alexm.7781]

New book. Dr Ramani, so happy for you ❤ I remember your personal story of the narcissist that was trying to sabotage you through your years of study. Trust now he can keep his mouth shut as he was wrong all along. Well done 🤗

[@Marializ1422]

Please talk about the “calm narcissist” I feel like they’re aren’t enough videos on these types of narcissist. Currently dealing with one and I feel like I’m going crazy. He always pulls the “im calm” card.

[@Tania-rg7jp]

I’m calm doesn’t matter. Does he talk down to people?

[@Latoree33]

Good point, with this video. Complaining wants validation to complain and need more to complain with them. I found these people in my family too. I had to exit these people they were exhausting to be around. Thank you

[@annbetz1]

Something I had to learn the hard way -- to a large degree chronically unhappy people find reasons to be unhappy no matter the circumstances. Happy people find reasons to be happy no matter the circumstances. Happy people have preferences, unhappy people have demands. (Of course even basically happy people can be brought low by abuse.) Years ago I moved to Costa Rica with my chronically unhappy complainer husband (now ex), with the false idea that removing ourselves from the stress of day-to-day life in the US would help him be happy. Yeah, for about 5 minutes. He was basically unhappy in Minnesota and after the novelty wore off, unhappy in Costa Rica. I was basically happy in Minnesota and happy in Costa Rica. So there you have it. (In his case, it was probably untreated depression and resulting childhood trauma which he was not willing to face or really acknowledge.)

[@acasyd]

My partner is a complaining narcissist. Totally overbearing.

[@LindaStokes-ff2kv]

My aunt is a constant complainer as well as the other traits of a narcissistic behavior. It's very exhausting and draining to deal with this. Not to mention that my dad is a narcissist as well and thinks he's God and the gift to the world and finds great joy in putting others down and talks about how wonderful he is.. It's really wearing on me being around both of them.. :(

[@KoolT]

Some people do have health problems that ate chronic 😢

[@katejudson8907]

True, but even so, the way people respond to their own suffering and challenges with health conditions varies. I have been living with something that has ruined my previously healthy, very active life. I lost so much. It was extremely depressing. Eventually I found that we all have to find the way to be as well and as happy as we can.

[@Saraflowerk]

Pessimism is difficult even if they aren't narcissistic. I'll never forget driving along a beautiful winter road with mountains and forests and the sea. I gasped at how beautiful it was and he scoffed saying it looks just like North Bay where he went to school. I was heartbroken ... for him. As an author, you just need to write the book. Don't keep talking about the process.

[@justinbyrge8997]

🤔 What if one's life isn't fair to them? What if things truly don't go their way? And what if things actually are hard? What if people truly don't support them? And what if others they see really do have it easier than them? What if it's actually true that things are harder for them than for anyone else in their life? My experience? Glad you asked: If this is all true and you don't say anything to anyone then at some point you're going to be overwhelmed and someone will notice. Then during the conversation, at some point the other person will say something like, "Don't be afraid to ask for help, we all need it sometimes." Or something to the effect of, "A closed mouth doesn't get fed." But the instant you ask for help or say something then someone will tell you, "You think you're the only one going through difficulty?" Or my favorite, "I went through far worse. I had to walk uphill barefoot in the snow across nails with a 200 pound backpack that was on fire and all I had was 18 cents to my name and I overcame it WITHOUT COMPLAINING ONE BIT, and so can you." 😂😂😂 Then I realize, wow, everyone is an undercover super hero and I'm not. How did I get here? 😂😂😂

[@wintermatherne2524]

It’s true that most people are insincere when they ask “how are you”. I’ve learned to minimize time with shallow people. I’m not a polyana but I am a realist. I know a lot of people that I refuse to ask “how are you” because I know based on their pattern that they’re counting on it as an excuse to barrage me with a litany of trivial complaints or complaints that I’ve already given solutions for, etc. However not everyone manipulates for attention. Unfortunately the polyanas have no empathy for people that need it.

[@anaduarte954]

It’s him! It’s Incredible how you describe so well…

[@CJbrieflittlecandle]

There should be a video series about the ways in which ASD is mistaken for narcissism. Or how people with ASD are chronically seen as terrible when they are just struggling to adapt and survive.

[@glenyshill72]

@CJ brieflittleca......... Totally agree. This would be VERY helpful all round ☺

[@LSMH528Hz]

I think there would be an overlap

[@marief3007]

Yes❤ also maybe considering that autism could be (childhood) trauma untreated, trauma can lead to developmental issues too… I have been labeled with Asperger’s but I am quite sure it’s really trauma…

[@indigoechos6796]

​@@marief3007it's a neurological developmental disorder...not a psychiatric one. Kind of like sensory processing disorder.

[@marief3007]

@@indigoechos6796👍 Hi, if you like you can check out Dr. Zwig and Dr. Jessica Taylor. This is what I believe to be the healthiest approaches and explanations so far. Best wishes to you. ✨🌿✨

[@lisateriyaki9410]

I love your color pallette ❤

[@carolzappa1804]

Thank you for the distinctions. I'm gonna have to listen to and watch it a few more times to really grasp it all. I feel a little better, knowing that my personality disorder is not so selfish that my complaining is chronic, over the top, where i need to tell everyone about all my woes, and bring everyone around me down. I also feel a little better knowing that i don't fit the unempathetic (is that a word?), all knowing, self-centered, self-important, self-involved, self-interested, gaslighting, manipulating etc. type of personality disorder. It's not a good thing to be somewhere in the middle, but at least there is hope for me...i think. ❤

[@neant2046]

Thank you! this is a very neat and comprehensive explanation of the difference between these two types of personalities. I've been wondering for quite a while about one person in my life whether they are the former or the latter, and now I have much more clarity and certainty in this matter.

[@raegeh-fv9sm]

A complainer will complain about a situation, but a narcissist will complain about other people. A complainer will see the bad side of every situation, but a narcissist will straight out LIE. A complainer can sometimes laugh at themselves or the situation, but a narcissist will laugh at you behind your back. When I was a child I used to complain to keep my malignant narcissist (evil step monster) away from me, she would torment me if she thought I was happy. A complainer can have empathy for a sick or disabled person, but a narcissist will despise a sick or disabled person.

[@garycole8365]

What if the person who is considered to be a complainer is in reality a whistle-blower, perhaps one who is trying to expose a narcissist? And aren't whistle-blowers usually castigated to no end as complainers until the truth eventually comes out? The complaining may just be a cry for help and/or a head's up to others.

[@berjvarjabedian2207]

I wish you was said “complainers might also be going through chronic, long term abuse” I do understand that the type of complainer you’re talking about is more extreme, and there are nuances on the spectrum of complainers. A person can without knowing be going through abuse at home, work, personal life and complaining. Great video and I’ve always wondered this question, thanks for shining the light on it.

[@craigmerkey8518]

Thank you Dr. Ramani. I remember when I was in HS, I used to say I could give the key family member in my life who displays NPD traits $1M on a silver platter on a sunny day. Their response would be they were put out because they had to lift all the money! It was received as me being negative or disrespectful.... so amazing how that changed when they met them... however by then it was to late!

[@juliadplume3097]

Someone not taking advice and then complaining about the same thing over and over is also a sign.

[@lynnebucher6537]

I know three of those. Constant complaining about how hard their life is. But when I paid attention to the details, I could see they actively continued to bring problems upon themselves by the decisions they made, and when I'd ask what they were going to do about their circumstances, they either would clam up or double down on how it was impossible to effect any changes.

[@01splitpea]

Extremely well done video, Dr. Ramini. I identify with much of your descriptions of chronic complainers. I've allowed others to decide my life's trajectory for me based on their interests, needs and life ambitions, because I finally realize my own interests, have been (largely) displeased with the results, and understand and accept that, because I never got to know myself, I allowed it all. I am working hard to live a life now in which I am well pleased, it's working, and my complaining has decreased significantly. Thank you for this video. It has already helped me, as I know it will thousands of others. One more thing. Right or wrong, when I know friends or acquaintances are suffering, even when I'm happy, I often deliberately complain about circumstances in my life which annoy or anger me, in order thay they won't feel envious of the good things happening in my life, in order that they will know they are not alone. Hope this helps. I wish you every happiness! You richly deserve every one!

[@JazzvanderKnoop]

I loved hearing Dr Ramani’s imitation of the “stupid man voice” 😂

[@LValley-kz3yc]

Complaining is like a nest full of baby birds. They always want their needs met but not willing to spread their wings and fly. So much life is lost sitting in the nest.

[@LSMH528Hz]

Even 99 out of a 100 bird species teach or encourage their chicks to fly. And ohh, how they complain for food, why can't they just grow from the fresh air or something. Human are not a precocial nidifugous species.

[@C.Church]

I took a CNA course in 2009. The Dr prof exp,ained groupwork dynamics. The one who immediately gets out paper. The one who leads. The one who makes suggestions. Ones who want to, but cant think of what to say. The sleeper. And the one who sits back criticizine the ideas, has none of their own, disapproves of the decisions, won't help present if it's an option, but collects the grade.

[@jameshunt6414]

Like so many things in narcissistic abuse, it can be twisted backwards DARVO method on a big scale. One persons complaining too much, is another person's thanks for the warning, one person's burning of bridges is another person's grey rock.

[@sallyfrost5002]

My now ex used to yell at me on avarage 23 times a day. I hated it!!!! However for the longest time I thought he was just an overanxious complainer. However I began to get suspicious when I saw that he would only yell at me when we were alone. I began to realize something was wrong when I realized that he was isolating me from friends and family and was hypercontrolling of my timeschedule, where I went, and who I met. He would lose his temper if a male cashier wished me a good day or if some random guy at a restaurant asked me if I knew where the bathroom was located. He frequently broke things in fits of rage and would excuse his behavior on anything but himself ( he actually tried to convince me that the caffeine in his daily cup of coffee was responsible for him screaming and smashing stuff LOL😂). He blamed me for continuing my education on the grounds that it was causing me to not pay him enough attention even though we were living together and spending 3 hours watching TV together at night and having breakfast, lunch and dinner together. I'd say at least four hours a day were spent doing nothing but socializing(a scary thing as he tended to yell and shout duringthe process). Three of my hours were spent cleaning his house daily as he screams if things don't get clean even though he rarely lifted a finger to help. Lastly I'd have about two or three hours left to study if I was lucky and stayed up late to work. So being upset about my education was a way of discouraging me from being independent. He was also mad that I wouldn't sell my house and come live and depend on him financially. If I made any simple request like " let's watch a different movie" or" let's play a game of cards" I would be complained at and called overdemanding. Everything with this guy is a drama and a nightmare! Yes, narcissists have one big difference from complainers which is that they make you afraid for your life and make you feel that no matter how badly they abuse you it must be your fault. Hugs to anyone recovering from narcissistic abuse.

[@lindasigner9402]

Listening to them complain constantly sucks the energy out of the room & everyone around them.

[@aynilaa]

Yes it does! My grandma is like that and most family members stay away from her.

[@lindasigner9402]

Sunilaa and she probably doesn’t realize she’s doing it. Sad for a grandma. Has anyone told her?

[@zachgardner2927]

You said it sister!

[@ranc1977]

Problem is: Talking about issues appear as complaining - and people will naturally be scared of emotions and handling problems - so we will be blamed and turned off both by psychopaths and general population who is scared of emotions due to patriarchy brainwashing and CBT/DSM pathologizing emotions and issues to be solved.

[@ZaynahZihoa]

Interesting. I have Nmom and have suffered abuse and neglect throughout my formative years. I'm also neurodivergent and it was pretty rough growing up, so I'm definitely a pessimist. I do tend to complain, though I'm trying to curb it; I'd like to be more pleasant to be around. Anyway, a therapist once suggested I was a narcissist and I couldn't figure out why. I asked another therapist about it and she did not agree. I was worried I'd turn out to be a covert narc like my mother and hurt the people around me. So I've worried about it often, though I'm pretty sure I'm not. I couldn't figure out why she'd think I was. But maybe my pessimistic nature and complaining made her think I was a narcissist.

[@isabelkelly7717]

Your "whatever " conjured up real images in my head of real people in my life.

[@BenTedesco]

This is a very interesting, but also somewhat confusing, distinction for me. It feels like the complainer weaponizes disappointment & guilt for manipulation. Basically, they either get 100% what they wanted (or were hoping for) or everything is ruined. And, since they pretty much always play the victim card (or have an excuse) there's no responsibility and so it's always someone else's fault

[@bamboowomandancing]

Energy vampires🦇

[@deborahklinkner1730]

So interesting because everything you describe about some of these narcissists is right on with my ex but he had so many synptoms of high functioning ASD

[@madge2114]

Sometimes I forget it's possible to have ASD and also be narcissistic.

[@magicsinglez]

Lol, how to punish people for being a human being. Punish people’s feelings, until they no longer have them. Feelings are bad.

[@zachgardner2927]

We can throw facts and logic at a narcissist and they still argue with you as if nothing you've said makes any sense. I feel that even setting boundaries for these types of people doesn't help much either since they will eventually try to overstep those boundaries you've set with them and then they will try to manipulate and guilt-trip you for setting those boundaries. It's a vicious cycle!

[@Hkhjazz]

Oh thank you so much for this video!!! Please elaborate more on this!! I already pre-ordered your book! I’m a daughter of a narcissist and always paranoid of falling for one so a video on this field is so helpful🥹 Please talk more about it💜

[@Bruhaha9]

Hey. “ I know, I know, it’s the positive people running from their times, looking for some feeling.” ~Beck It’s often the absolute most optimistic and hopeful people that complain. They deeply want a better world and hope for everything to be great and when it isn’t, they feel beaten down. It’s counterintuitive. All the super positive people I know, I would say have a dim view of the world at their foundation. They accept everything without any analysis and don’t even notice if things are moving the world in a better direction. They don’t care at all. It seems they make their own wonderful reaction to things the primary reality that they trot out to the world.

[@annebethkuijs9442]

I know a few that probably have dysthymia. It narrows their view and focus and leads to the complaining as some sort of outlet/cry for help . They are almost never solution focussed, probably because that would be scary and they would lose the relative safety/comfort zone/inaction/absence of responsibility the victim role creates for them. They talk about themselves very much but don't seem to notice it or do it intentionally. They genuinely have low self-esteem. When I manage to mention something about myself, they usually have as much empathy they can muster given the circumstances. Because of the semi-overlap of symptoms I noticed, I was wondering about what sets these people apart. Thanks dr Ramani, this helped me to seperate the two conditions clearly.

[@erinward2983]

Your views and perspective are so insightful, well-thought out, and well said. I’m so grateful.

[@Uvvibes]

Congrats on the book Dr Ramani! Cant wait to read it 🎉

[@TirzaNL]

Hello Dr. Ramani, I ve got a question. Can a vulnerable narcissist turn into a grandiose narcissist after drinking alcohol? There is this person in my life which totally fits the vulnerable narcissist profile, but whenever he drinks alcohol he acts like he is the best, the most awesome, the smartest. He can go on rants of 25 minutes straight about how awesome he is and how much better than others. But when sober again, he is insecure and complains all the time. Can he be both, one when sober and one when drunk?

[@somexp12]

What I've picked up is that grandiose and vulnerable narcissists are not necessarily different characters but different states a narcissistic person can go into. When a grandiose narcissist loses access to enough supply, when they lose enough excuses to justify their grandiosity, (when they decompensate for an extended period) they go into a vulnerable state. And when a vulnerable narcissist manages to acquire the same stuff they can become grandiose. Can probably see how "liquid courage" could play into this.

[@somexp12]

For what it's worth, I got this information from a certain yt narcissist called "the nameless narcissist." (I'd forgotten his channel name when I first responded.) He's been diagnosed with npd, and it turns out it's plenty possible to be one and be perfectly aware of it. His channel does a good job demystifying a lot of stuff.

[@TirzaNL]

@@somexp12 Thank you for clarifying that. I m gonna check that YT channel out. Hopefully, with more understanding about narcissism, I can endure this person in my life and not be dragged down.

[@lkelevra7636]

The complainers in my life that weren't actual narcissists, had bpd or bpd traits. And when they got a single spark of help or compassion, someone just asking about they're complaints, you could see calm and hope in their eyes, like little kids when an adult stops to hear them. With vulnerable narc. is like an endless puzzle where you find solutions over solutions for them, and they simply restart the issue just for attention, they're simply unreacheble. If you know a vulnerable narc, you know the difference.

[@happyday3368]

I way I figured it out (vulnerable narcs vs. complainers) is that the complaining is often times coupled with blame shifting/victim mentality/entitled - then I know they are more than likely a narc. For me, I have to see at least two other toxic traits that go along with complaining.

[@user-we8ek7ku7d]

I had a relationship with a female narcissist but she didn't complain overtly. We would stay in the most beautiful seaside cliff top accommodation and she could wake up sullen. I have photos of her where she looks depressed, but she was actually sulking about something. She kept her complaining hidden and would instead be passive aggressive. She sat silent and sulked and said she needed space and I now know that was in order for her to regulate her emotions or come up a a strategy or excuse for her behaviour.

[@Sunshowers902]

Hi Dr. Ramani!!! Wow I’m so glad that someone agrees with me or can relate I would say. I do not like harsh people. I find it very hard to deal with them. I’m also sensitive. Also, I love the work you are doing!!! Keep up the great work!!!

[@AffyisAffy]

6:15 is key. Rather than trying to label them narcs vs non-narcs, which often leads me to black and white thinking, I find it more valuable to look at the impact they are having on my life and others. I've met many that trigger my gut feeling of run. I would even say there is a Venn diagram of complainers and covert narcs. The other side might even have depression. Regardless, don't develop a therapeutic relationship for your friends by listening to their constant complaints. Having an always-open door policy to your listening ear isn't good for you.

[@gertrudewest4535]

There’s a lot to complain about lately. I am not into toxic happiness- I am a serious person.

[@lorettanericcio-bohlman567]

I’ve got to say, depending on where you put your energy there’s a lot to be thankful for.

[@wintermatherne2524]

“Energy” has nothing to do with it. Be thankful for your blessings AND recognize and manage problems. None of this fake, toxic, polyana nonesense.

[@cassiebennet4262]

Wtf is "toxic happiness?"

[@patriciafry8634]

It would help to have a few specific examples comparing a complainer and a vulnerable N.

[@rebeccamilligan1711]

This was my household growing up, I am noticing that I as a young adult and teen was very covert behaviors as a young child. I have done a lot o reprogrammmming and trauma healing work with therapist and showmen’s . I’m am blessed to see this. I broke up with my x about two months ago. We talked briefly over Facebook messages, he asked me to text him on his phone this idea make me feel uneasy. I said perhaps. She send me a few more messages on the messages, I confessed that I am healing from a long term relationship. He responded many things. What I saw alarming was when he responded and jumped to the conclusion that I am being “hateful”. I know I do not want a person like this to be part of my life. The continues to threaten and say that “you are not the same person he met a year ago.” I decided not to engage and to end the messages, with a. Positive goodby. I never because emotionally unstable until I was with him for 6 months plus. I am doing much better now and wish to keep it this way!

[@shilparathore3181]

This is awesome. Thank you for the clarifications.

[@aquarius2284]

Me feeling guilty for complaining so much about things I can’t really grasp or seem to control, that impact my mental health to the point of feeling like I’m going crazy, convinced I’m a burden to everyone around me, applying solutions without consistent results -> Finding out at 32 I just had unmedicated ADHD all my life, with no accommodations 🙄 got diagnosed right after my son got diagnosed… Do I feel like my whole life was a lie? Yes. Was I ever mistakenly tagged as a vulnerable narcissist chronically playing victim by a therapist? Also yes.

[@MT-tx7bu]

Emotionality vs true emotion. They complain about life and never suggest a solution or, in many (if not all) will never ask for help. They just want to dump on you.

[@youngblood8540]

This is a side effect of bad parenting. One reason why reproduction should be a privilege not a right.

[@LSMH528Hz]

Maybe, but you now it's going to be a panel of narcissists who will decide so that's not going to work either. Besides that it sounds like some natsee breeding programme or something. The children of narcissists are not to be blamed for their N parents behavior even before they are born. But yea, I question if everybody should have the automatic right to have as many kids as they want sometimes and the right that nobody is allowed to make any comment about the parenting skills because that seems te be the sole right to the parents. Well, until child protection agencies step in, but usually it's way too late then.

[@infopubs]

Super useful comparison!

[@Judyjlefebvre]

One would think the difference to be empathy and compassion? A vulnerable narcisissit can not understand or know how to be empathetic or compassionate towards others😊 self awareness speaks volumes over narcissistic behavours.

[@ivank8104]

I think that unlike a complainer, a narcissist would tend to tell lies. Most of their problems will not be true. I know someone who pretends constantly to be ill. Once he explained that he had had a very serious health condition which practically ruined his life. The only thing is that a doctor then told me that such a condition isn't even possible. So, I think that lying is a good indicator and once you've caught them, it's time to flee

[@cherrybacon3319]

I lost count of all the times my Narcissist Ex complained about things that didn't go his way. 🍒

[@aynilaa]

One of my grandmothers has been complaining for at least the past decades. I don't know her any other way! And it's exhausting to spend time with her, so I disengaged.

[@TheGiorgiapolly]

I m always shocked how many banality..."the complainer is unhappy of their life". Wow....enlighting :D

[@vladquebec]

Another very important topic to cover, thank you! I used to be a deep complainer, especially when I was in toxic relationships. I worked on that and I believe I am in a better place now. I used to wonder if these traits in me meant I was a narcissist. All philosophers are Greek, but not all Greeks are philosophers.

[@stephyta84]

My narc parent complains all the time, all her problems are because we do not help her doing this or that, she's want us to take the responsability of her unhappiness

[@cassiebennet4262]

My Dad is the same way.

[@baronhelius4596]

I just had to cut off a phone conversation with my Covert NPD mother because I just couldn’t take it anymore more today and I looked up this video and others like it when it comes to complaining and Narcs. I already spent an entire hour on the phone with her this morning listening to her bitch and moan about the same old people and same old stories I’ve heard a million times before. It’s exhausting. I just spend the entire time saying “Yeah. Uh huh. Terrible. Awful.” Then she calls me again at 5pm to start the whole thing over again. Only this time about some new people she met on the street and how impressed and enthralled they were with her before she began to tear them down for not knowing what she was talking about. I told her I was busy and couldn’t talk. I just didn’t want to hear anymore today. And I actually felt guilty for a moment. Why cant they get it through their thick heads that no one wants to hear it!? I had a major blowout with her about five years ago and screamed at her “Dont you get it!? People cross the street when they see you coming! They dont want to hear your endless whining and complaining!” First she denied she complains and insisted she is quite jovial and positive. Then within five minutes said if anyone deserves to complain its me! After all I’ve suffered.” They are insane. Absolutely bonkers insane!!

[@christinefox5077]

Valuable information,.thank you !!!!!

[@audbaltzersenrameckers8832]

I just read the comments. And as I listened. I was starting to wonder if I am a complainer. But the more I listened this kind of complaining sounds more like my narc ex and mother. I am slowly healing from being retraumatized after my last relationship. I am educating myself as much as possible to learn about myself and red flags. I am slowly also connecting the dots. I want to write down a non-blaiming or complaing lists of facts of trauma in my life from age 12. Then I'm wondering will that be complaining when I send it to my brother (flying monkey), my mother (nars) and father? I never had many grown-ups to talk too in my life. Some teachers and grandmothers saw me. I am also diagnosed with ADHD (2022) and on the Spectrum. I have never been so emotionally regulated before. Instead of dysregulated. Educating myself and meds help me alot. Is this complaining?

[@itsjustramblings]

So if someone has been betrayed and/or let down by supposedly close family and friends they trusted and they complain because there is nothing else they could do and their good nature was just taken advantage of do they fall under vulnerable narcissists or complainer? So What if they had given lot of their hard earned money or time over the years for other people's issues but in return only to learn that those people don't see them the same and they are not in anyone's inner circle? What category do they fall under?

[@cBe9999]

When I was younger, I used to complain quite a bit - yes I wanted to be heard but the thing was that there were legitimate problems in my life that i did not know how to deal with and (at the time) i felt like my 'friends' would have helped me and i was confused why they wouldn't. As I came to realise, there were toxic people among my friends group that were very happy at my vulnerability who even sought to maintain my 'victimhood'. As I didn't know better, I started complaining more in the false belief that those 'friends' would change. Obviously, they didn't. I came to realise the solution was to cut them out of my life and be proactive. The point is: 1) age and understanding of coping mechanisms should be taken into account 2) interpersonal dynamics can also play a role in a person's sense of victimhood 3) the flip side to complaining is something like Toxic Positivity - complaints can sometimes start from an authentic place but, due to the emotional immaturity of the support group, the complainer gets silenced but feels they have to complain louder in the future.

[@Someoneoutthere67]

My complainer was never selfish by nature.

[@qnkendra1523]

I can be a complainer I have a lot of life things and people used to complain. I made the personal rule about 2 decades ago to complain effectively... as in know if the complaint like "ugh snow I hate it" or is it "ugh snow it's going to hurt me physically to shovel it". The first example I try to just make it a one off statement and not every time. the second I either suck it up and deal with the pain but don't complain or I ask for help. Funny part is with that personal rule for myself I started to see others differently too. The non-effective complainers have been pushed further and further out of my inner circle and all my inner circle has similar views on complaining. But my inner circle is almost all neurodivergent and/ or have chronic conditions. I didn't see myself as a complainer before the rule I was just trying to avoid the judgement about things I could not do because of my chronic conditions and neurodivergent challenges. But sometimes intentions don't matter when other's perception differs.

[@Jae-by3hf]

I like this break down and differences thank you 💜…are you going to do one on attention seekers?

[@sandylevan5647]

This is good info...more validation

[@Pixelynx]

I could help to laugh at the beginning as I dated someone who literally said, "my childhood was so much worse than everyone else's because since we grew up poor the only VIDEO GAMES I got were hand me down", VERBATIM. 😩 And this is while WE were a part of a program where the main people the program sought out were individuals from marginalized/under privileged backgrounds. I'm pretty sure that man got hand me down clothes as well, but you can see where his priorities were. And they were all games/franchises he still loved tf out of as an adult too, even if he got them as hand me downs as a child. 😮‍💨

[@beatlebarb64]

Looking forward to receiving my book!!!

[@PenninkJacob]

Yes, Thank you Thank you!!!! ❤❤❤👍

[@cyshultz9095]

Thanks!