Doctrine and Covenants 84, with Scott Woodward

[@sal4gal]

My husband and I watch your fantastic videos each week and learn so much! ❤️

[@R3dR1der70]

These are amazing. I love the context and application. Perfection!!

[@ccmars9315]

Excellent again. Thank you!!

[@MichaelConvey]

Fantastic!! Thank you!!

[@trower64]

Thank you. Your teaching skills are very helpful!

[@Chamby123]

Excellent summary

[@ivonneh.53]

Thank you

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

In verse 21 it is a little perplexing because it says no man can see God the Father without the ordinances and authority of the priesthood, yet we know that Joseph saw both God the Father and Jesus Christ many years before he received the priesthood which was restored, Joseph being the first holder of the priesthood of the restoration. So what is the correct answer to this summation?

[@Pelmoggian]

Forgive my layman's interpretation of this - in verse 21, the "Power of Godliness" referred to is the power by which mankind can become like God, or 'Become Godly', which is the Atonement. And this atoning power is received by covenant through baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost ('Ordinances' and 'Authority' as mentioned in verse 21). Verse 22 then refers to our eternal progression - returning to the Father to see the face of God, and live - eternally - as a result of these covenants and ordinances. And obedience of course…

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

@@Pelmoggian That makes sense of the connotation. Perhaps it also has a dual meaning, because many of the brethren who were with Joseph have also seen the Father. Having a vision of the Father and actually being in his presence literally can also be two different things. Visitations of the Father and the Son to the Prophet Joseph Smith By Jeffrey Marsh · March 27, 2019 latterdaysaintmag.com/visitations-of-the-father-and-the-son-to-the-prophet-joseph-smith/

[@xulent]

Joseph Smith used the word "ordinances" differently than we do, including in D&C 84. By the early 20th century, we had restricted its use to describing certain rituals we perform, and the ones we consider essential we call "saving" ordinances. As Scott describes in the video, however, the "ordinances" of D&C 84 are all prescribed actions, ceremonies, changes of heart, and commandments which sanctify a person such that he or she can behold the face of God the Father while in mortality and continue living. That is what Moses was trying to teach Israel at Sinai, that is what Joseph Smith tried to do, and that is what the Church today is supposed to be doing (though my impression is we aren't too interested in it anymore). When he wrote the Articles of Faith (as part of the "Wentworth Letter"), Joseph Smith was describing the ordinances by which we are saved, and said "We believe that these ordinances are 1st, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2d, Repentance; 3d..." So, in Joseph's understanding, faith in Christ and repentance were "ordinances". At age 14, Joseph Smith had kept those ordinances to a degree that he could be sanctified by the Holy Ghost and endure the Father's presence. He did later receive all other ritual ordinances, but long after he had received the manifestations that they symbolize. By analogy, the Lamanites in Helaman chapter 5 were baptized by fire and by the Holy Ghost, even though they hadn't been baptized and didn't even know the words to describe what they were experiencing. Though the ritual of baptism by water is said by God to be a necessary precondition to the baptism of fire, their hearts were ready and prepared by sincere repentance. God can provide rituals later, but the most important ordinances are the inward ordinances of faith and repentance. I believe it is the same for all of us and for Joseph Smith. Regarding Priesthood: If Alma 13 is correct, Joseph Smith may well have been one of those who had been ordained in eternity at the foundation of the world, and therefore was simply regaining a full fellowship (a fraternity, brotherhood, or priesthood) with God which he had only left 14 years earlier. All that was required was for him to sacrifice a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

[@xulent]

​@@Pelmoggian, verse 22 is referring to an appearance of the Father to a mortal person living on earth. Hence, Moses' attempt to teach and sanctify Israel at Sinai to allow them to see God's face at Sinai. Verse 21 is referring to all of the necessary steps, inward and outward, that a person must do to arrive in God's presence. Shannon's question is a valid one, because those steps include things that Joseph hadn't done yet. The short answer is that God cares less about the order of things, and places much more importance on the inward state of the heart. Joseph's heart was such that God could sanctify him and unveil his face, and all earthly rituals could wait until later.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

@@xulent Your reply has been very informative and enlightening. Joseph absolutely could have been ordained before he was born. Everything the Father does is with the priesthood. There have been exceptions to how the ordinances have been done for those who are very, very elect such as you mentioned in the BOM and John the Baptist, Adam also. Your explanation rings true to my spirit. While there have been many who have seen the Savior, there have been very few who have beheld the Father in the flesh. I seek that experience and you have shown me some very good guideposts and doctrine. Thank you for taking the time to reply, it has helped my understanding of many things immensely.

[@coreynasfell1095]

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