Does 10th Edition Live Up to the Hype? | Tabletop Tactics Podcast Ep 3

The Tabletop Tactics Podcast is a show where each week we discuss a different Tale, Topic or Tangent and hear from our incredible On Demand community and beyond!
In this episode Bard, Beard and Spider discuss 10th Edition: It's here and in full swing. It’s been called a glorious mess, even decried as completely broken by a few but now with several games under their belt how do the TT team feel this edition is shaping up!
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[@FadingClarity]

I think my personal biggest problem with 10th is that some armies have just lost their identity. Death Guard don't feel at all like how they should or did play, and it's very annoying to buy an army because of a certain playstyle and have that not even exist in the slightest the next edition. Not having the same units be powerful is one thing, but having a tanky slow army become a mechanised and nowhere near as tough army is quite the jump.

[@Lilybun]

I agree. It is a bit jarring to go from reading the tau books where the battlesuit pilots aided by loyal drones flick their eyes around multiple marked targets, obliterating them with various weapons into playing the game where shooting at more than one target cripples your BS to 5+ and drones basically don't exist. You have to put regular tau people in harm's way to spot targets for the army to reach 3+ shooting ability rather than letting the expendable drone helpers do the risky jobs for them like they always do in the lore... It's as lore friendly as replacing servitors with space marines or gretchins with nobs. And don't even get me started on the detachment that turns their ambush doctrine into a generic shooting keyword you only unlock on turn 3 for some ungodly reason... granted it was just as badly designed and never voluntarily used in 9e but that sorta just makes it worse that it didn't get redesigned.

[@andyashbey133]

Thoroughly enjoying 10th. I play vs my son and it’s something we get to spend some quality time together. He’s 12. We stopped playing 9th because it was such a chore. So really happy we’re having fun with it again

[@tabletoptactics]

This is awesome to hear! Glad you guys are enjoying it! - Bard

[@burrbear17]

Enjoy the dumbed down trash.

[@dolamrothknight]

GW: you get disgusting resilience, you get disgusting resilience, you get disgusting resilience, you get disgusting resilience, you get disgusting resilience, you get disgusting resilience,you get disgusting resilience Deathguard: cant wait to see what we get. GW: you lose disgusting resilience, and get slower, lose possessed, get fked Deathguard: t(-.-t)

[@uselesspocketwatch]

GW charging for the app is like McDonald's charging to see the menu.

[@jeremyortiz2927]

Good analogy.

[@MrTumnus1987]

They’re not charging for the app, they’re charging for the army builder.

[@Wallenquist]

​@@MrTumnus1987Then that's like McDonald's charging you for going "hmmm, I wonder if the Chicken Legend is nice?"

[@johnmartin6700]

Now I want a Chicken Legend...

[@High_Lord_Of_Terra]

How? They sell games, why would they give the games away? The app isn't a menu, it contains the bulk of the rules that they sell.

[@Crash_Test_UK]

10th has changed me from an all round hobbyist into just a painter.

[@BerenMace]

Why?

[@Wcverhaagh]

​​@@BerenMaceI play GK's and feel the same. My army went from a mobile psychic power house with decent melee to joeseph joestar running away from everything and cant kill a fly. The indexes cut to much out and the core rules are half baked. Like how you can run inquitors in GSC

[@Crash_Test_UK]

@@BerenMace so I play Slaanesh - CSM and Daemons. Our rules suck. Rules wise, unless you are a top tier army, you can only play Monster mash or Possessed+Abaddon Bomb. Anything else just gets alpha struck or overrun by better army rules - Oath of moment? Even the special rules of the armies just don't do enough. Battleshock does nothing. Noise marines and Daemons are all about battleshock checks. But, IF an opponents unit fails, no OC or strats.... Big whoop. It can still move, shoot, assault, use special rules, use special army rules, use character rules, basically do everything but without a buff of a strat. Then, you have mortal wounds. Daemon saves are basically a 4+ coin flip at best, but mortal wounds just bypass this and so many guns are D6+X that 2 or 3 shots will just take out a 400pts greater Daemon. The rules are just not effective enough for weaker armies and far too effective for others and with the open season of "take what you want" people just take the hyper efficient list (even in "friendlies") and you are forced into certain builds or there's no point trying to play. I feel that 10th has become a tale of 2 army lists - 1) What stuff can I take to wipe out my opponent by turn 2/3. 2) What can I take to try and last to turn 3.

[@Humakth]

Like me chaos player too. Now I will play swl and firefight

[@Khorzho]

Just convince your gaming group to stay on 9th. We're still playing 9th and having plenty of fun.

[@nathancandy7568]

My death guard army cries for justice

[@davesolo4352]

The new Overwatch rules makes coming out of cover and moving a unit out into the open scary (like it was in 2nd edition) which means units can actually get into protracted fire fights (like real battles) rather than just running straight into the enemies guns. But when you do get the charge off it’s all the more sweet!

[@stuartworthington8061]

Devastating wounds is probably the biggest contributor to the Killy-ness being so high. We probably needed another rule that triggered off crit wounds. ‘Rending wounds’ that improves AP, or ‘overrun’ where crit wounds spill damage, or ‘penetrating wounds’ where crit wounds do extra damage. Because we only have one thing that triggers off crit wounds, it’s everywhere, and mortal wounds are just a bit too powerful to be so readily available. Unfortunately, this might now be something we don’t see until 11th as they experiment more with these kinds of effects

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I’d say no. One of the things that has disappointed me, is that GW didn’t really do the things they said they were going to do. Two examples. Re-rolls and damage reduction/negation. A big part of the runup was how they were cutting back on these aspects of the rules. What did we get? Space Marines army rule - re-roll missed. Feel no pain? Now Votann and Militarum has feel no pain but Death Guard lost it?

[@ElGrompho666]

But to be fair, the FNP isn't armywide and also doesn't help Votann much. I'd argue they are even in a worse spot than Death Guard because the basically don't have an army rule to speak of.

[@fateweaver9844]

9th had huge amounts of rerolls. I bet it's more than 10th. But nobody wants to actually count them up and compare

[@PhilipRikoZen]

everyone has FnP except DG, black templars can have army wide feel no pain. to me FnP is a general rule, DG should have had a special thing, like a super FnP and instead they got nothing, if at least infected objectives counted like 7 models it would be something special and DG could keep objective with no models against a lot of units.

[@aleczandergordon1298]

Yeh re-rolls are everywhere at the top and it’s so bad. DW is so unfun when it’s 2+ hit re-roll everything and 2+ save re-roll everything. Every single turn againt most things.

[@UnkaStunka]

It is a unfinished product. Would not be too bad if it was not for the fact that it will be replaced within 2-3 years which probably is the time it will take to make this edition work.

[@michaelward8530]

LoV got smashed with the Nerf hammer straight out of the box coming into the 9th Ed, indexed to 10th they really have been left behind. The need a huge revamp!

[@michaelironrider9443]

Thx for the interesting video! I made a little survey in our german competetive discord what we like and don't like about 10th: plus: less rules, much more streamlined, reintroduction of universal special rules, new data sheets and easier profiles. game plays smoother. neutral: mission pack - people seem kind of to ignore secondaries for the time beeing when building their armies. fixed missions are too difficult, tactical missions too random negative: loss of psychic phase (cast dice you dont roll any more, you now roll in shooting pahse); AoS powerlevel points and fixed squad sizes are super restrictive; balancing of some armies: Robin Cruddace always wrote weak codexes - thats what we know see for some poor indexes like the Votan who got hit hardest. I think most of the negative aspects can be tweaked easily throughout the edition if they listen to player feedback...

[@Raddaatt]

I've been playing, or rather trying to play since 2nd edition with my brother, and we finally found a version we both enjoy. So far, I love it!

[@tabletoptactics]

This is awesome, great to hear you are enjoying 10th!!

[@martinfrancis4606]

I hope that when the codexes come out, they do updated datacards.

[@KukoDane]

Would be a huge waste to buy those datacards though, as they will within no time have to be updated again.

[@terminatoruk4921]

They pretty much confirmed this in the dev q and a they said the art design on the index cards would be visually different than the codex cards.

[@Blackcube1013]

Why? You’d have a codex with data cards on the pages.

[@martinfrancis4606]

@jasonrg12 I personally prefer to use cards as it's easier than a book.

[@jgascoine011]

@@martinfrancis4606 Do people not have smart phones? Like seriously, what is peoples obsession with these giant cards that clog up the table, just use your phone

[@PrometheusZero]

I love, love, love your positivity! So many channels are are doom and rage bait since negativity drives social media engagement but you are the last bastion of fair appraisal and critque!

[@coxj3]

Absolutely love this. @Table Top tactics has totally re-invented my love for 40k. Not played since Rogue Trader, now play with my 10 and 7 year old after they hounded me for months to pop into the local Warhammer shop - thanks so much guys, you make it so much fun to watch. Just finished basic missions in 9th.. not sure where to go next without re-investing in Leviathan.

[@georgeflecknell]

I have a simple fix for Oath Of Moment. 2 in fact! The first option, the Space Marine players chooses ONE enemy unit which they are Oathed to destroy. For the entire game their force can reroll hits and wounds against it. The Space Marine player only reveals this target at beginning of the first player turn. From turn 3, if this target is destroyed and if the warlord is still alive, for 1 CP the Space Marine can change he Oath of Moment target to a second and final unit. Options 2, more simple but less fluffy, Oath Of Moment plays with the current rules but only begins in turn three. Also, battle-shocked units do not get the benefit of Oath Of Moment.

[@blackhorizon40k81]

Love the podcast round-table discussions. It would be awesome to have this released in an audio format on Spotify or something to listen to while working! Keep up the great job!!!

[@CrimsonKMR]

Didn't see anyone mention it, but they fixed the plague marine thing and you can now take squads of 7 - Not sure how long ago this was record

[@tabletoptactics]

Thanks for raising - we recorded this a little while ago so some things have been updated since, which is great to see!

[@fishpalace]

Great podcast and enjoyed it far more than I thought I would. New to 40K and been watching mainly battle report and how to paint so this was refreshing and a very different 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👌🏻

[@jonny_kung]

Yes and no for me. The competitive win rates say it all tbh. We've lost ignore invuln weapons but they've been replaced with Devastating Wounds instead. Melee armies are screwed unless you're Custodes. Some of the stuff they've moved to Legends is anti-player and highly annoying. Lastly, they clearly didn't play test much at all and rushed the edition out, yet again. Gotta get that £££!

[@MrSpeedy29]

You guys are absolutely the best resource for 40K. Helped me get into the hobby and I have learned an astounding amount from watching your battles and listening to your commentary. Keep up the wonderful work; look forward to what the future holds for you guys!

[@tabletoptactics]

Thanks so much buddy! Amazing to hear that you’re enjoying the content and it’s helping you get into the hobby! Happy hobbying - Bard

[@sheeke2156]

I wish Devastating Wounds would have had a number next to it say, “this is the max mw per phase for this weapon” that could have easily balanced how strong units are that have that mechanic

[@terminatoruk4921]

Really enjoyed that - way more of these (monthly!). Re: Torrent and overwatch, what if Torrent keyword weapons are limited to only being able to use the overwatch stratagem during the enemy’s charge phase? This way they keep their lethality but the opponent needs to make the decision whether they bare the brunt of the attack via their charge choices.

[@johnroberts8793]

Or just halve the number of hits since overwatch shots are supposed to be rushed

[@PhilipRikoZen]

this would be another nerf to melee army which are already fighting an uphill battle in many other rules

[@terminatoruk4921]

@@PhilipRikoZen how so? It would mean torrent weapons couldn't fire in your movement phase - surely that'd benefit a melee army to close the distance / give it options to tie up a torrent unit with some close-range charge chaff before committing expensive units?

[@PhilipRikoZen]

@@terminatoruk4921 meele army use overwatch only in the shooting phase and they get hit by it in the charge phase, so putting it only in the charge phase means they are the ones that's gonna be hit by it. Armies that don't like melee are not gonna charge anyway. That was my reasoning and my experience in games. I would even go as far as saying that overwatch in the charge phase could be removed altogether. Charging is already a risk, it's not even sure to go off and it doesn't give any advantage basically so there is no need to make it even harder. In reality a charging unit will usually come from concealment and if you shoot overwatch you don't brace, that's why cavalry was so devastating vs riflemen compared to spearmen cause the latter braced. Instead of overwatch in charge phase there should be a "brace" stratagem that if the charged unit doesn't pay, they all get a -1 to hit cause they are shaken by the charge. Charging units had the +1 attack to simulate this in someway, but now even that is gone.

[@jackfreeburn8795]

Absolutely love these podcasts, very interesting and still entertaining! Keep doing what you do as its awesome

[@tabletoptactics]

Thanks buddy! Glad to hear you are enjoying them! - Bard

[@evanco5213]

Love you guys. Keep up the awesome stuff

[@tabletoptactics]

Thanks so much buddy!

[@PaintCelestine]

Your video was very thought provoking and well produced. I've enjoyed 10th a bit as a sisters of battle main. Couple of things that I wish they would improve: 1. Points. I miss points granularity. I miss trying to optimise my last 30pts with a specifically numbered squad of sacresants. I miss trying to cut a special weapon or power weapon. Now, I'm told I have 130pts for 5 retributors. Why would I take heavy bolters on these ladies? Also, fixed unit sizes i dont like. I dont like how battle sisters are fixed to 10, and retributors are fixed to 5. I dont like Tau fire warriors fixed to 10, and pathfinder are fixed to 10. I wish we could take a more flexible sized squad. 2. I wish most melee units didnt need a character to make them actually dangerous. Wyches without Lelith are leagues different to Wyches lead by Lelith. Same with Drazhar and Incubi. Same with Morvenn Vahl and Paragons Warsuits. I would like to see Incubi become the feared blenders they have always been, not unable to kill 5 space marine infiltrators in melee.

[@kat2667]

Cant agree more about the all wargear being the same cost is bad, the best unit to show this is crisis suits, all lists take are shield gens, shield drones and cyclics on every suit on every point, makes them (very killy) very one size fits all and no use for any other options

[@MrHoneuma]

As someone who's first love was Death Guard, it's a huge disappointment in that regard. I was going to get a few War Dogs to plug in to try to make DG better, but thought better of it and decided to just do Chaos Knights instead. They're not good either and they also effectively dont have an army rule, but at least they're playable.

[@TheBraveExalted]

I’d love if you guys did a regular podcast and uploaded it to Spotify! This is 10/10 for my daily commute and I really enjoy hearing your guys’ takes on the new edition. Would be great if you guys did a deep dive introspection on each faction in 10th. Cheers 🍻

[@7Falcon8Wings7]

Really like the ideas and opinions presented! When talking about Overwatch, perhaps have it so Torrent weapons roll d3 shots if it’s normally d6, and it’s 1 shot if its d3. Also, lowering the range to 18”-20” might help

[@korbinbohannon6501]

was woundering if maybe you could tell me the cabinets yall use for your studio to hold your armies?

[@tonynaranjo2982]

I enjoyed the podcast, but I have a couple of comments: 1. You mentioned that they addressed Eldar quickly, they haven't in my opinion. 2. It feels like you will enjoy more the game depending on your local community, you have a well establish group of friends most likely with home unwritten rules on how to play the game correctly, not chasing meta; sadly is not the same scenario in all places, you will have casual, meta chasers, bullies and if you don;t have balance, it would not be pleasant. 3. 10th edition rules are great overall, much more enjoyable than 9th, indexes, not. How do you manage to create the Eldar or GSC index and then mess up so badly with Votann, AdMech, Death Guard, BA ... It feels like GW don't have editors and math people, quite basic these days. 4. I play several armies, some of them don't feel like you are runnig them (DG just weak, BA with mobility and melee but getting obliterated by armor, then you go to armor and it feels red marines, GSC lost the strategic side to plain spamming). 5. Battleline/OC: why have more OC when I can use killy units and clean the objective instead. 6. Why battleshock when you can easily remove the penalty with an strat (free multiple ways / captain) and at the end it has no major penalties, then everyone is ignoring it. On a positive note, the future looks bright once they manage to address the index mess :D

[@TrebleAmp]

I have had a blast with 10th as a 9th Dg player it’s forced me to pick my necrons back up and loving the metal boys again!

[@tabletoptactics]

Poor old Death Guard got a rough deal with the index 😅 - Beard

[@TrebleAmp]

@@tabletoptactics they did but I have nids and crons to play as back up. The smelly boys can live on the shelf until their dex comes out! It’s a refreshing break tbh! :D

[@piotrjeske4599]

​@@TrebleAmpnow imagine those DG players who have one army and cant or dont want to buy a new army. Not very fun.

[@TrebleAmp]

@@piotrjeske4599 sucks! I agree but balance is never great in 40K balancing 26 armies and hundreds of units is impossible. In the meantime there are plenty of great armies to give a go. The combat patrols are a great starting point now too.

[@Stonehorn]

Same as Votann. They destroyed the army. Turned them into mini marines.

[@MarkAndTerra]

You're bang on about Space Wolves. You can make TWC work with the "+1 Damage when you charge" rule but Wulfen and many other SW unique units are trash. So many SW unique units are OC 0, so it makes it really difficult to win any games with them. If Sisters of Battle Arco-flagellants can be OC 1, I think Wulfen can pull it together to be lucid enough to hold an objective.

[@mrwednesday1757]

Is the podcast only in video format?

[@williamlovell2050]

Really enjoyed this. Was hooked through shorts so well done there. Your views on the game resonate with me despite being a primarily tournament focused player

[@buhbenji]

I wish the orks either hit harder or survived longer. Hiding behind cover in order to not be blown off the table before you can even get into melee isn't very orky. Having to play for objectives instead of trying to to kill doesn't feel very orky either.

[@ThirstyOtter]

Liked already and only 20 seconds in, you bosses are the best

[@tabletoptactics]

Thank you! We hope you enjoy!

[@dizzycriminal]

The conversation about Battleline is really interesting. I think incentivising taking them is definitely needed. To me, an army looks wrong when there isn't a certain density of foot troops. That said making them a requirement isn't the way to go. People should have the ability to take the units they want.

[@Surge7-hs63k]

I think the TAU really do need some more love and definitely plasma sword and shield crysis suit units would be amazing!!!!!!!

[@markfrancis8978]

10th is basically the same for me as I felt at the start of 8th and 9th. Some things are good, others more meh. I don’t know why every unit has to have a special rule, and many are just arbitrary. If a unit can’t stand on its stats alone, then the ruleset is botched. I’m enjoying it but know it will go tits up within a year or so like every other edition.

[@UnkaStunka]

9th on release was nowhere near the mess that 10th is

[@chashtag2336]

I far prefer the actual games of 10th over 9th, but I play balanced armies with friends. At the top level the game is quite awful. Some game rules need tweaking IMO, such as Overwatch being nuts, melee having a ton of trouble moving, and Battleshock often being meaningless. But with some balance patches (and some more major faction rewrites for the worst armies) the core of 10th is very nice

[@Laanshor]

Thanks for this type of video lads. More please. @13:20 re: battleline for flavor: Lucius does have his [Emperor's Children] rule allowing for NMs to become battleline. Not nearly as fun as full legion mechanics, but it does give me hope for helping more IP characters onto the table, as well as balancing.

[@ryanolsen4196]

Returning player from fifth I think. The tenth rule excited me because I brought new players with me. I would be curious if the torrent keyword on overwatch would play better if it rolled a D3 instead.

[@milkyzg3542]

Excelent show. I've really enjoyed it❤

[@xLarsson1996x]

I was looking as Castellan Crowe's new Datasheet and realised "Heroic Intervention" and "Heroic Sacrifice" was gone. Found out "Heroic Intervention" is now a strategem but what about "Heroic Sacrifice"? That ability was so badass!

[@soerenkepler]

So do you think the LOS rules are "the best they could be?" Ie - have 1 trooper of a 10man unit be in cover = everyone gets cover. Thats how its played yes?

[@CrusesFear]

As a gut feeling, prior of watching and enjoying the whole podcast, I feel like the best way to express this is by separating 10th into the edition itself and the Index. I reaaaally like the core rules. But, as a Harlequins and T'au player, I hate the Index. One of my armies is beyond ruined, and the other feels half baked and boring. Not to mention GW's "gotcha" moment at forcing PL on the entire playerbase.

[@tabletoptactics]

Definitely feels like ‘more to come’

[@doctor8bricks]

Thinking back on Spider's comments around Battleline units (~12:00), I agree that structure is good, and would prefer to have "compulsory" BL units as part of the list building requirement. A nice way to combine this with 10th's philosophy could be for them to specify BL units per your detachment rules. I expect we will see this at some point, but it would be nice to have it re-combined with a compulsory 2-3 BL units requirement for list building.

[@rocmistro]

I agree 100%. For example, a Gladius detachment requiring: 1 (Captair or Lieutenant), 2 Battleline, 1 Vehicle, and 1 Dreadnought Vehicle would be great way to add constraints without being too oppressive. The other thing they could do....if you have a maximum unit-strength battleline unit, you start the game with +1 CP.

[@korrul]

Battlelines do tend to have a bonus - most armies have it as the most OC and often become empowered while being on objectives or attacking them. The balance might be not there, but some tend to be a good idea

[@maciekwilkosz6377]

I don't hate 10th but I honestly preffered 9th. Yes, realy. I miss detachments. Without them battleline units in many armies feel useless and completly skipable. I also hate armour skew lists and this edition encourages them. They're more thoug now which alone is fine, but now you can run nothing but armor if you so wish which is not. While I like reduction of stratagems I don't like the reduction of relics/traits. We now have fewer starts, but those we have are all pretty useful and there are stil enough to have meaningful choices in game. 4 character upgrades per detachment is way to few. I don't see the same mental strain here. You choose some and play with the few you picked. I would like to have more fun choosing cool stuff for my heroes while list building. It use to be a lot of fun. While I appreciate indexes, because they provide rules for everything on the start of new edition and not all games do that, they're quality varies a lot. I'm very happy with my Ultramarines. They're fun to play and give me a lot of playable options. The same is not true for my other 2 armies. Votann have been gutted. They're not only underpowered, they're now very unfun to play. Their core mechanic is hard to use and even if you unlock it it's not very rewarding. Aeldari are a weird beast. They're best stuff is way too good, but they're other stuff not so much. I have a force with a lot of infantry and meele centric units and man are they a dissapointment. Banshees with Jain Zar bouncing off Space Marine infiltrators is something that happened to me... Aspect warriors and psykers were what got me on board withc craftworlds. Now they feel very vanilla and unapealing. I realy hope codices will help but until than I guess I'm sticking with my marines.

[@agentcoriolis9208]

Deathwing and friends. A family comedy coming soon 😆

[@brucechilds5242]

It seems everyone loves the index cards, myself also, but a lot of the community is saying they will never do an update to the physical cards they sell. Do you guys see that as true, as the index cards seem to be a huge advantage to the joy of 10th?

[@Stonehorn]

Why would they? Stats rarely change during an edition

[@bloodofsanguinius4222]

Blood Angels player here (shocker I know) and melee in 10th overall just feels awful now. There are so many feels bad moments with the movement restrictions, and bouncing off even light vehicles with thunder hammers.. There is very little incentive to be dedicated to melee unless you are Black Templars or Custodes. On another note, Aeldari post nerf still make me not want to play the game at all. The balance for that army legitimately make no sense.. War walkers with -1 to wound and a 4+ invuln, fate dice is not fun at all, aspect warriors more durable than space marines, the CP cost of broken stratagems like phantasm, lack of restriction on fortune so you can make the Avatars -1 to wound. A squad of eradicators wounding what used to be a T7 model on 6’s now makes me just not want to play. Not even to mention the free rerolls to hit and wound on every unit and devastating wounds found on just about everything. I play in a competitive scene, and I’m saying this as a long time player who has won/placed in many tournaments with numerous different factions. The competitive side of the game is just in a terrible spot and until many things get fixed it don’t see myself playing, which sucks because I really want to :/ I love 40K

[@AnimetionRich]

Personally i think that battle-shocked units should lose all of their datasheet abilities (except those affecting battle-shock) as well as losing the benefit of strats. Would make it a lot more meaningful

[@Stonehorn]

Would also make the game worse

[@adammotter]

Are you guys going to post these episodes elsewhere? Didn't find them on Google Podcasts...

[@tabletoptactics]

Hey! We are looking into sharing the episodes on other platforms - right now however other episodes are avail e through our app! 😊 - Bard

[@Willsr14]

Here's the problem with warhammer. They can do 99 things right, but that 1 thing they get wrong can be an "i quit" moment. When a game requires such an absurd amount of investment to play (large costs, building time, painting time & skill, finding a group, collecting an army, learning the game etc.), it has to get a huge majority of things correct, otherwise the investment isn't worth it. Lots of my friends are happy because they are lucky enough to afford multiple armies, so they have at least one that they enjoy playing this edition. For me, I like 10th overall, but I've had to abandon the hobby. Why? Because my Imperial guard feel unfun and clunky to play. It's nothing to do with winrate, as I have enjoyed my Guard through the absolute worst of warhammer history (6th and 7th). It's to do with how badly designed they are and their rules aren't satisfying. I can't afford or put time into a new army, I don't have hundreds of pounds lying about, so I'm left with a dead investment until it's fixed - which could be another 3 years if the codex flops. The order system is lopsided (doesn't work with vehicles well, officers can't benefit etc.), it alienates the main attraction of guard (vehicles), forces you to play a particular model (Leontus, who I hate), and then the detachment rule isn't worth the paper it's written on. Chaos have better rules for tank armies - marks and pacts are both super relevant to every unit. Guard however? Orders aren't guaranteed, you won't get it on everyone - especially not vehicles. Plus, lethal hits when standing still encourages stagnant gameplay and rarely gets utilised on anything that doesn't have indriect fire (a problem in and of itself). I have to play an army that gets maybe three quarters of a rule, while most other armies get two full rules to use. I don't like how my army plays at all, and the army one plays will define how much you will enjoy the game, so right now it's not worth the time playing. I am pleased with the other 99 facets of the game, but that 1 last problem (being my army rules) made 10th practically dead on arrival for me. When entire factions can be considered unworthy of the proper design attention, then I really have to consider if the hobby is for me, because I don't want to invest the huge requirement of time and money to find a way to enjoy the game - it's too inaccessible.

[@burrbear17]

Lets face it, 40k is never going to be the way it used to be...the rules no longer matter they are an afterthought.

[@stuart5350]

hoping we get to see Lawrence take on the grey knights in a tactica soon!!

[@tomgiddings2440]

Been really enjoying these episodes, keep 'em coming!

[@tabletoptactics]

Thanks buddy!

[@davidsturrock2733]

Great chat, guys! I have a non 10th question… Where are your display cabinets from? 😊 Thank you!

[@laughingman4570]

I am one of those guys who last played in 3rd edition and is finally thinking of coming back to the tabletop. I did not like the idea of spending 100$ just on books and climbing that mountain of rules in previous editions.

[@PaoloTrepiccione]

Hype is fuelled by your own expectations. If you have no expectations going in, then you feel no disappointment.

[@neilbatterham8370]

My only gripe with the new edition is the points. Armigers at 145 compared to deff dreads at 150. Tankbustas on release were more expensive than desolator marines. The game works for the most part and as I play fairly friendly the problems that arise through spamming the best stuff doesn't really come up. Some factions really need some anti tank stuff for balance though as it's quite bad for a few factions.

[@piotrjeske4599]

Desolator marines cost less points for 10 dudes with 10 long range heavy weapons and always indirect fire, then 10 purgators with 4 short range incinerators and conditional indirect.

[@little_isalina]

Autarchs not being able to join aspect warrior units is a big silly joke. I feel like they forgot that the Autarch is the Omega Aspect warrior whos done it all and became like an Exarch but instead of one aspect, for the whole path of the warrior. It should be able to not only join aspect warriors with the same type of locomotion (foot, jump pack, bike) but also gain any of their special abilities that rely on every model in the unit having the ability, like infiltrators.

[@ruas4721]

Also Exarchs are a fuckin joke compared to something like a SM Sergeant or even worse a terminator. I mean ... Eldar have the second advanced technology in 40k and an Exarch is a Master of War, to them a SM veteran is nothing more than a kid. But thats a big problem of 40k alltogether, profiles and rules dont match with the lore the slightest.

[@piotrjeske4599]

​@@ruas4721you want more things for ekdar? 76% win rate , an autarch has more weapon options then my entire army.

[@StueyPie]

How you can say its better than 9th with a straight face is impressive. Your GW deal must be juicy!

[@tabletoptactics]

We get precisely zero cents from GW. Just our opinion :)

[@BloodBuffalo]

Ive loved 10th edition. Granted im not aiming to win big tournaments but its been the most fun ive had with 40k in a while. Definitely some tweaks needed but idk im having fun

[@tabletoptactics]

Great to hear 🎉

[@Edward-Plantagenet]

Your channel is by far the best out there IMO for 40K and it's refreshing to see how positive you guys are, looking for the upsides in editions rather than the perpetual doom and gloom that some peddle. I played 4th, 5th, 6th, tail end of 8th, bought but skipped 9th and now am actually looking forward to 10th with some real enthusiasm. I'm so glad the bloat and over complication has gone, just hope they don't dribble it back in via codex release. If I want Doom & Gloom I'll listen to the Rolling Stones 🤣

[@wdeborde]

Its always interesting to hear the terrain opinions from UK/EU. I know a lot of people here in the US looked at the terrain suggestions and were like "yup, looks about right."

[@naamtar22]

10th is by no means the dumpster fire 7th evolved into, but some of the interactions that are present just makes the game feel less-than-thought-out. Snipers with precise hits that can't target lone operatives, vehicles being obviously better than infantry in almost all regards, the horror show that is anti/devastating wounds interactions....Eldar, full stop. Given that GW had at least 18 months to button down the edition it feels as if the rules were written under a time crunch and released untested. My biggest concern is the amount of time before 11th ed and they haven't gotten all the 10 ed codices out.

[@richardwilliams5762]

I personally feel miss lead by gw with them saying before the launch of 10th saying first born weren't going anywhere then a month in pull loads of first born. Bit of a U-turn if you ask me

[@yoshi-the-great]

To Beard's point around @09:40 - I'm new to the 40K TT and I totally agree, I started in 9th early this year, and found for someone who has never dabbled in ANY TT game before, it is very daunting, especially understanding not only the vast amount of stats on the datasheet, but rules for each army, then the core on top of that, so I stopped and waited for 10th as I got told, waiting 2 months to re-learn everything was a bit pointless. So once 10th landed, picked it up and was surprised at how "noob friendly" it was, still a lot of stuff to learn but I've got to say, I'm loving it(McDonalds say's hello) and I'm picking up things at such a rate, it's very refreshing, hats off to GW for making it "easier" in a way.

[@netprince455]

My problem with 10th is that they scaled back complexity waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much. I am happy that they decreased amount of stratagems and warlord traits and unified keywords. But I feel like everything else feels too simple and weapon options dont really matter because you will always pick "best" option and loadout without drawbacks...

[@HexTableTop]

I haven't watched this yet, but my guess is that you are going to say yes.

[@ericmumper6821]

As a system, I really like 10th. In terms of internal and external balance, I think that that the game needs a lot of work. I don't understand why a CSM Obliterator is 80 points and a Necron Heavy Destroyer is 45 points. It's hard to believe that GW is going to push those two models into some sort of parity. In terms of internal balance, my "fluffy" Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers are simply not nearly as good as lascannon or autocannon Scout Sentinels. It would be really nice if they try to push on that balance in the upcoming balance slate.

[@Grithertime]

App for a game that you purchase the rules, models, terrain and etc. for, you have buy in to the company, the app for the game itself should be free. Adding in the Warhammer plus is something not everyone wants for the game, maybe it is amazing, but make levels.

[@Carebear_Warfare]

Miss me with required battleline/infantry etc structure. Letting folks ahve free reign makes for SO many more interesting lists. Besides, at the xompetitive level folks will ALWAYS lean into whatever is most cost effective so requiring a structure wont change that at all, theyll just be forced to have a more "balanced" list in terms of units which to me makes a very uniform stagnant gameplay. I love that one game i may be fighting elite units, then the next is someone who leaned in fully to the hordes. Tyranids are the PERFECT example of this. Want a balanced army? Take a bit of everything. Want big bugs? Play nidzilla. Want to just swamp your opponent? Run swarms. Want to just be all over the place on the board? Lean into the infiltration and deepstrike and lone operatoce bugs. It means any singular army can have multiple playstyles which keeps it fresh fpr the player and their opponent alike

[@Stonehorn]

I completely disagree. Troops should be the basis of every army.

[@girlhunter2102]

In terms of the torrent and overwatch discussion: it existed in 9th too. My first game of 9th was 500 points, orks v Tsons flamers + overwatch wrecked me and my boyz. Definitely wasn’t fun but I think my opponent was gaming against me a bit. Point being, I don’t think things like torrent and overwatch are a huge problem if it’s not being abused.

[@Stonehorn]

What is abuse? If it’s legal, it’s not abuse.

[@TeamCandiru]

so happy my ghostkeels get on the table now. I love that model.

[@GardenhammerDave]

Hell yeah!

[@FA-qk4eh]

🍿 came here wanting to see chef let loose 😂

[@Jhc421]

Did I miss an update? I thought the World Eaters Blood Tithe mechanic got replaced with the Blessings of Khorne mechanic where you roll 8 dice and pick from a chart of Blessings?

[@jimmyd85]

overwatch is great, its brutal and really makes me think about my moves, trying to bait an early overwatch so i can move the thing i really want unimpeded is great. and then trying to work out when i want to use it. sure it sucks making a bad choice and getting blown off the board but theres ways around it, maybe dont move that turn and send in some units that will be fine to eradicate that group of flamers, i think its a great addition that really adds to the tactiucal gameplay and if they nerfed it it would be dissapointing.

[@Jhc421]

Y'all keep mentioning Warhammer Plus like it's worth the money though. Angels of Death is not enough to justify the cost.

[@barrywise7185]

"Flamer keyword has a +1CP to use Overwatch", would be an interesting change (oh that gets brought up right after i made this comment, lol). Or make it so that if a flamer is used for overwatch then it's +1, so a unit with just 1 flamer can opt to not use it for cheaper? idk, just spit balling

[@LeviticusStroud]

I'd agree that 10ED is better than 9ED six months ago. The problem is, that 10th at launch was worse than pretty much any prior edition at the same point- which doesn't exactly bode well for 30 months from now! There are some great ideas in 10ED, but the execution for the actual rules has been one of the worst of any launch I've seen GW do. Just look at the supposed re-introduction of USRs, and the fact that the suppressed rule for SM Suppressors is different to the ones used in other armies. Could they not just all get the same USR? The 'Rules Commentary' is 18 pages of things that should have been included in the core rules- which are effectively unusable without it. That's nuts! Remember when we all complained that a single page of the Space Wolf codex had to have a pdf, as the English language version hadn't been updated before it went to the printers? I think the issue is that it seems GW have diverted its rules writing priority to the step of fixing errors, but taken away its (admittedly not great) focus on preventing errors being there in the first place.

[@jesserenzetti7648]

Something I’m expecting and will be sad to see go. For World Eaters the Berzerker Glaive enhancement on a Master of Execution. Allowing you to deal 15-40 mortals to a character/vehicle only for 105pts. When the change comes hope the army overall ends up cheaper

[@ImtheHitcher]

So I was a player from like 98--04 and have been thinking about coming back to the hobby but previous editions seemed quite tedious? Byzantine? I totally agree the data cards themselves are great and I'm about to (re) buy my beloved guard EDIT: I used to hate they ditched the tank armour ratings and templates but having watched a number of games it actually seems better to use toughness and auto hits/blast rules, saves on LoS arguments etc

[@justinerickson282]

Why is Uther the Destined Uther the deserted now? He’s literally one of the only major named characters without an aura or a passable (given to others) ability. Also fix Votanns rules. Our rules literally Do Not work together.

[@DudexNOR]

Plauge Marines has been fixed luckely. You can take 7 now

[@ThijsSchrijnemakers]

Thanks

[@clemo85]

One thing they could do for Overwatch is make it so you have to roll the Overwatch roll but Torrent allows you to hit on 5s instead of 6s. I'm not a fan of charged units fight first either. What's your opinion on that?

[@andrewadamski8547]

Why would torrent weapons roll to hit??

[@fateweaver9844]

I like it personally. FF is powerful. Being charged and not having FL just feels bad. Now you have to decide the best way to deal with a melee unit that can FF even when charged since your FF melee unit fights after the charged unit

[@headdie89]

great podcast/video guys :) i like and i don't even play the game :D

[@tabletoptactics]

Awesome! Glad you enjoyed - Bard

[@seanreeb3937]

Ravenguard player coming back from 4th / 5th. Having fun with this edition and excited / dreading the new RG lore and hoping we get out from being knockoff death company.

[@tabletoptactics]

I hope the less looked at Chapters get some spotlight this edition. Not even a supplement in 9th! - Beard

[@burrbear17]

doesn't fit the new game they want. @@tabletoptactics

[@Kallistosprom]

As an ork player, I feel I’m missing half my army.

[@matthewpaul4520]

10th edition has led to the single largest increase in Age of Sigmar players. 😂😂

[@thordoo3047]

I waited for 10th edition to start playing. 9th edition was a nightmare to watch experienced played spending 90% of the game flipping pages and explaining rules, truly an awful game for new players. 10th is FUCKING AWESOME. 🎉😊

[@burrbear17]

10th is so dumbed down.

[@thordoo3047]

@@burrbear17 r/iAmVeryBadass is made for you.

[@natedowney9590]

GW should let KZbinrs or other gaming clubs do beta testing before releasing new editions. NDA's applied of course.

[@JSTaylor556]

They tried that. As recently as 9th. The community shitted on them, released and leaked everything, and so GW pulled the plug

[@piotrjeske4599]

I knew that it will be rough , because each edition is bad forcmy dudes, but l really underestimated how bad it is. Grey Knights are not just bad, they lost what l liked them for. It isn't an army of magic knights . They do no damage. And l still have to check my own rules , because for some reason my land raider, tech marine, grand master are different from marine ones. Ah and l would REALLY like to get thunder hammers back . An eldar autarch has more weapon options then my entire army. And non of my concerns seem to even noticed by GW. How is my brain suppose to reset , when big tanks are thing and my army is designed , by GW , not not be able to deal even with light vehicles? How is that good. The games aren't different everytime to me, when l am losing them by turn 2.

[@burrbear17]

The fact is, as long as you buy their product they don't care.

[@munchinbiscuits]

Think GW missed an opportunity for good faith and entry into the hobby by popping it behind warhammer+.

[@Vaalbaara]

“the problem with drukhari is they’re too good” lol