Does Determinism Rob The Human Experience of All Moral Value?

What would a largely deterministic society look and behave like? Would it be, as some imagine, a more merciful and just society, or as some others suppose, a veritable wasteland where lawless immorality, cruelty, and hopelessness reign supreme? In this video I hope to answer this contentious question and to bring some clarity to an otherwise esoteric matter.
Music: Adrift Among Infinite Stars - Scott Buckley
Instagram: / letstalkphilosophy
Sources:
For this particular work I have taken much from the philosopher Spinoza, the psychologist Robert Sapolsky, and the Neuroscientist/philosopher Sam Harris. I have found their insights to be extremely helpful in clarifying my own thoughts on the matter and I encourage you to read or listen to their thoughts on Determinism and free-will.

[@GodlessCommie]

As someone who recently became a determinist, i’ve needed an explanation on how morality fits into the worldview (especially with people who misrepresent it constantly as moral depravity or something). Thank you!

[@wowwar2]

The real question that everyone should be asking is what they are going to do with the answer? Will they use it to re examine and expand their understanding of morality or are they just going to use it as an excuse to absolve themselves and moral responsibility and do what they please?

[@huerohx]

Hello great video! So for me to understand this clearly, I'm going to say it in my own words and please correct me if I am wrong. So in the eyes of a determinist, all actions we have or will do has a cause that can theoretically lead up to the beginning lets say the big bang? So all the choices that pops up into our head for example, if i want ice cream or pizza, I am only a witness of those choices and whether i choose the ice cream or the pizza, it was both predetermined? Doesn't this mean we have a bit of control over our determined outcomes?

[@necropreneur]

But you will eventually pick only one thing out of two, pizza lets say. Now it means that if you went back in time you would choose pizza, not ice cream. And thats why it was predetermined.

[@LetsTalkPhilosophy]

Hello, thank you for the thoughtful response and question. If you mean that we ultimately make the choice, then yes we do. But what I believe is that we could not have chosen otherwise given the circumstances that lead up to our choosing. No matter how long we vacillated between these two choices, our final answer would remain the same given that the events and experiences leading up to this choice did not change. I hope that I was able to understand your question fully and this helps in some way. Thanks for taking the time to watch!

[@LetsTalkPhilosophy]

@primordial Descendents Change is absolutely possible and a certainty. I would say that you simply do not get to choose what changes you, it is more in the realm of fortune or luck rather than free will. But I do not believe that determinism is pre-determination in the sense that we are fated to be something from the beginning of our lives. I believe in a determinism of means, rather than one of ends as was stated in the video.

[@sujathaprabu9975]

​@@LetsTalkPhilosophydeterminism is not about fortune telling/future prediction/foreknowledge, it's born to oppose free will.

[@claudesylvanshine6551]

Our choices don't matter aside from how they fit or don't fit within the current cultural framework in which we exist. This continually changes throughout history which just points to the whole absurdity of it all.

[@Wingedmagician]

Wow I stumbled on a gem channel nice

[@LetsTalkPhilosophy]

Thank you for the kind words and support!

[@user-xq6fb4uw9n]

Only thing is it's more free will for a well to do individual and more determinism for the impoverished, yet either still applies.

[@vugovfx1119]

yes.

[@sujathaprabu9975]

You should've named your video "soft determinism"

[@patrickdunne153]

Are people determined to tell lies?

[@fecomate2542]

Even the people that understand determinism still look at criminals trough the eyes of free will. In a universe where free will doesn't exists, circumstances matter a lot. You can put yourself in other people's shoes, since we view ourselves as not just a product of our environment. If I judge someone for being a psychopath but later on it is revealed that he turned out this way because he was abused as a child, I feel more empathy towards him, since in similar circumstances *I* could have ended up like him. This does not works in determinism. There is no *I* that can be put in his shoes, since if you change anything about me, I will cease to be me. I don't have a soul, that can be put in different bodies, I am the body. I can't be in their shoes, since I am the shoe. So why have empathy? I can never be in their situation, not even hypothetically.

[@caricue]

What's funny though, is if you ask the average criminal or psycho why they did a thing, they will happily tell you. Never in the history of the world has someone begged for help as their body did a crime. "Help,help, I don't want to stab you but I have no control over what my brain and body have decided to do!" One might conclude that the person was actually doing exactly what they wanted to do, so it would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that they are just a really crappy person and deserve the consequences of their free choices.

[@fecomate2542]

@@caricue I don't understand what are you arguing for.

[@caricue]

@@fecomate2542 That's fair, but I read over your comment and honestly, l could not tell what you were arguing for either. I was just having a little fun pointing out how silly it is to imagine that there is no free will when the very person who did the deed insists that it was his free choice. My overall point is that while I can't say that free will is definitely a thing, I can say for sure that determinism is not. How about you, are you a true believer in the holy doctrine of determinism?

[@fecomate2542]

@@caricue so your argument is that free will exists because a criminal said so? Are you being ironic right now? And if I insist that the earth is flat it will be?

[@caricue]

@@fecomate2542 I'm not arguing anything, however, I did make the bold statement that the concept of determinism is nonsense. The parts do not control the whole and the past does not control the present.

[@kailenmitchell8571]

Know that if I was ever convinced we lived in a deterministic universe I would spend the rest of my days to destroy all thinking life. The reason being mercy for all those suffer for n I fault of their own. The second reason all things that we precieve as good via choice are actually false and meaningless.

[@SonnyWane]

I feel like whenever you say things like "ought" or "should" when discussing our moral impulse within a determinism framework (and many make this grievous misstep), you are pick-pocketing from free-will (the positive that it has to offer). I'm not convinced that morality can exist in a deterministic reality.

[@sujathaprabu9975]

Determinism will affect how people interpret it i.e it's determined how people interpret it, it can be destructive or the opposite.

[@laks1616]

@SonnyWane, I think I partly agree with you that “ought” does not make sense in a deterministic framework. If the universe is deterministic, then whatever conclusion your brain comes to when asking what determinism means for morality, is given by the actual path that the matter of the universe has taken to produce that conviction in you. “You” have no control over your moral judgements and values, even if you realise this. So at least I think you have to discard the idea that moral autonomy is necessary for making moral judgements, if you want to believe that morality is a possible/relevant concept in a deterministic framework. I think that could work, but have not thought about how.

[@SonnyWane]

@@laks1616 The thing is that morality is exclusive to free-will. It doesn't exist otherwise, technically. Morality presupposes a choice between two potentials; if it were all determined this is no such thing as morality and justice. They are mere illusions. I would also like to point out that the deterministic POI is a bit out-dated given the relatively recent quantum mechanics findings. The world of matter at a subatomic level is not a place of certainty, but of probability. Now you might say, well, whatever outcome a quantum particle manifests, that was determined. You'd be perfectly good to say that, but I would have to question why one might need to keep pivoting in order to not depart from this worldview. It's not pragmatic, nor is it in accordance with honest scientific inquiry.

[@elguardallavesdejaal]

In a deterministic world Will and Choice are actions with such unfathomable level of influences, including human self-reflection, that there seems to be freedom, for we are unable to track everything that made us do what we do

[@botowner8623]

Determinism makes people *weak*

[@codetechnexus]

@nicolaas5459 what he is trying to say, only been a determinist will get you killed, well think that is what he means and I agree, im atheist and im not in favor of one or the other I believe some things are determinate and others are in your control (free will) you hev to know when to switch not for our convenience but to survive its the law of evolution

[@romanlonskyi8946]

+

[@PrepperKiwi]

Yes it is easy to forgive. There is no freewill. Not many know this, but why do any of us need to know? Why am I one of them? Why are you?

[@exaiphnes0]

I think now that we approach the aquarian age, more true knowledge will come to us(from the unconscious) about who and what we truly are.. so maybe you are more close as a soul to your individuation, or because you have a good relation with the nature and with your unconscious mind (creative side)..

[@LetsTalkPhilosophy]

Most seem to get by without this knowledge somewhat fine haha. I do not believe anyone needs this as it may do more harm than good to some. When one seriously thinks about this topic, they will either be convinced of it or not; I think we should accept their position as it is, what else could we do?

[@EG-cs3wv]

We need to know what we are to avoid what we aren't. But there is no free will, so what is next? Well, all improves when the absence of free will is acepted. Trauma, hate, guilt... all is solved in a better way

[@smallscreentv1204]

Determinism isn’t philosophy. It’s radical scientific materialism. Just wanted to correct the record.

[@caricue]

I get what you are saying, but since there is no empirical evidence for anything like determinism, it sure ain't science.

[@smallscreentv1204]

@@caricue exactly my friend It can be proven so it’s actually just sophistry

[@caricue]

@@smallscreentv1204 I believe that determinism is worse than sophistry, it is a defect in the human cognitive system. Determinists are uniformly egotistical and so sure of their beliefs that, from the outside, they appear to actually be determined, and their thinking ability is compromised, but only on this one issue since they live their lives as if they have free will, just like everyone else.

[@ethio1931]

⁠@@smallscreentv1204how is it

[@caricue]

So we're supposed to choose to see criminals in a different light, but the criminal does not have the ability to choose not to commit a crime? Determinism is so full of obvious absurdities that no sensible person could possibly defend it, yet here we are.

[@LetsTalkPhilosophy]

Hey Steve, thanks for responding and I understand the confusion and apparent absurdity. One problem that I find with dialectic when it comes to topics such as determinism and free will is that the rules that the two are speaking from are typically different. Hence the very rare case of convincing someone of your view. I do not think that the criminal chose to be the way they are, I also do not think that you choose to see a criminal in a different light. That would imply that you had free will and they did not, my point is that neither of you do. I believe that we are free only in so far as we are conscious of our decisions, I do not believe we (being free agents) decide what we decide as that would require us to decide it before we decided it. I think it to be simply a biochemical reaction in our brains which appears to us in consciousness completely determined by our prior experiences and genetics. I hope this helps to clarify, though if not I understand where you are coming from and thanks again for taking the time to watch and comment!

[@exaiphnes0]

There is no matter of choice if you are one(whole) inside you (union conscious&unconscious), that "choice" comes if there is a dichotomy in the soul... So we just have to accept that the criminal is our unconscious shadow self!

[@caricue]

@@exaiphnes0 Isn't it more likely that criminal laws are the will of the majority and the criminal simply doesn't agree with your version of morality?

[@caricue]

@@LetsTalkPhilosophy Thanks for the thoughtful response. I don't know if free will is really a thing or not, but the whole concept of determinism is what Dan Dennett calls an "intuition pump." Just putting the word determined into a sentence will make any nonsense seem perfectly sensible. You can say that the past determines the future, but you wouldn't say that the past "controls" the future, although most determinists do believe that there is only one future that locks into one past, which defies all observation and experience, but is held as a quasi-religious belief since there is no way to test or prove this strange assertion. In your response you seem to be saying that your prior experience and genetics preclude you from making any choice, except for the one that you ultimately make, that is unless you do something else, then that will be the inevitable outcome. It's nothing but sophistry or even a slight of hand to say that whatever happens "had" to happen. You can say it, but you can't demonstrate it.

[@PrepperKiwi]

@@caricue if we can control the feet of a horse with pressure and position of legs, a movement in the saddle or a click of tongue, then why would we ourselves be immune to such things?

[@exaiphnes0]

God has one "disadvantage"...He cannot create anything but Himself! So He separates Himself in two (conscious and unconscious), and from the unconscious side of the soul secretly leads the Ego(conscious) to experience life (duality,good & bad). There is no free will, there is just God who tries to "find" Himself and be whole again..(union of opposites)

[@AlchemicalForge91]

So the universe and matter is God's subconscious?

[@exaiphnes0]

@@AlchemicalForge91 In a way yes..if human is ego(conscious) that came out of earth,first must be separated from matter in order to gain consciousness and after has to unite again as a whole....that whole(universe) is God, Has many opposing forces and a third one (energy) who connect them(ether). The same is a human soul, two opposite sides (unconscious-conscious,Father-Son) and a third connecting power(Holy Spirit). So God is those three powers connected together in One..