Does God Punish Women with Pain in Childbirth?

[@michaelbayron]

Love that last point Dr. Tim made. These consequences are specifically designed to show us, humans, that our ability to produce and multiply doesn't come from our own but is a blessing from GOD. The consequences put the focus back on YHWH instead of on ourselves.

[@kofuller]

Yes! That really brought it home for me!

[@JackWhitehead1981]

I’ve always liked the Bible Project, but this guy comes across as kinda…. Well…. Shall we say… Flamboyant.

[@jordandavis3867]

@@JackWhitehead1981 and so what??? Why are you judging him?

[@langstonj2476]

yoo! Magic Mike :D lol funny seeing you here 😂

[@michaelbayron]

@@langstonj2476 Oh hey 👋😂

[@meganrussell3585]

Needed this. As someone currently struggling to conceive with my husband. It’s Gods lament, not my punishment. Thank you Lord

[@krkf8]

Prayers to you and your husband ❤🙏

[@meganrussell3585]

@Eucharist Angel k

[@meganrussell3585]

@@krkf8 thank you ♥️

[@mrs.garcia6978]

Took us 5 years to conceive our first. We refused interventions. 14 years later we have 8. 3 are in Heaven waiting on the rest of us. I told God our family was His story to write and I was submitting to whatever He wanted (I thought 0 kids), I fell pregnant right after that prayer.

[@pjengland286]

@Megan Russell I'm so sorry you are going through this. It's so hard!

[@amandaainengonzi2780]

Oh man, this is amazing. And if the whole bible is a story pointing to Christ, this interpretation of grief instead of labour pains fits so perfectly into the conditions under which Christ was conceived, birthed and raised. What a gracious father we serve, even at our fall he spoke grace

[@Sugarintl]

I cannot explain how happy I am to hear you guys discuss topics in the Bible that I’ve struggled with for years

[@Babyshoes777]

Same, I know God doesn’t hate women, but it’s hard to read scripture without this kind of understanding. With pregnancy and periods, and just life as a woman on this planet (especially us as black women). Many of us run to the scriptures to make sense of what is happening to us. But so many of us are let down when we read what’s there. God bless you Tim. You’ve helped me understand God much better. God is good, and doesn’t hate us.

[@sambeard5208]

Hello how do you reconcile your faith to your content?

[@Sugarintl]

@@sambeard5208 have I posted anything that is heretical ?

[@kinglistosas5010]

It was a punishment for sin from ya'll foremother eve.

[@getachew.]

You're so pretty, you look like a doll :D 🤍

[@KelseasComments]

I know for a fact that it doesn't mean labor pain. Because I had 2 completely pain free unassisted births. Gave birth to both my boys in a birthing tub in my kitchen all alone (other than my husband) and didn't have an ounce of pain either time. They were the most spiritual/supernatural experiences I've ever had and nothing has made me feel closer to God.

[@nelliekhumalo7770]

Oh Lord may this be my testimony!

[@kinglistosas5010]

Cause you're a motha-lovin gangster that's why 🔫

[@Blablablahx3]

I thought contractions are necessarily painful? (I don't know much about pregnancy sorry)

[@jessicalc7]

I've have 6 children. All painful and long labors. 3 natural..last one homebirth, which was my best birth. Regardless though, many women experience great pain in childbearing.

[@jjjxoxoxo]

How is your experience logical to what the truth is ?

[@kofuller]

The end really brought it home for me! And verified everything I’ve been finding to be true in my life. I’ve been on a journey to produce something new and purposeful in my life and over the last couple years I’ve realized how HARD it is by my own personal power, and how much easier its becoming as I allow God to lead me and give me HIS life and HIS power to get it done. The whole process is becoming more and more stress free, the more and more I increase in my faith.

[@adonis6193]

Surrender all

[@ruthtadesse4014]

Wow this makes so much sense thankyou!

[@aliciahermosillo6589]

Yasss I totally ageee with you as there is a saying if it’s stressing you out let God lead cuz in his word it says Donit be anxious or worry about anything but insupplicationand in prayer only so cast it all to the Lord

[@1859958]

Amen!

[@MichaelSmith-mr5dh]

I like this format. I like the others, too. I like Bible Project. I like the Bible

[@user-alfredo-saucy]

Me too :) 🌟💛

[@ciaraevans7158]

My thoughts exactly

[@abby999]

me toooo

[@cathleenolney8852]

As a mom, just raising sinful humans is more difficult than if we were all without sin! Too often, I respond to my children's sinful behavior with my own sinful reaction. This increases "pain in bringing forth children."

[@artstudiogirl784]

This is exactly my interpretation also. Raising children is hard, in every stage. There is joy and peace and triumph but it’s still very hard for many different reasons.

[@angelqt0727]

Wow! Yes!! All of my own childhood trauma comes back in the way I respond to my children when they’re “misbehaving”. It’s the most painful part of motherhood for me because then I’m filled with guilt, my children are sad or feel ashamed themselves, etc.

[@aniesha6614]

Remember. God removed the memory of those muscles after we gave birth. We know that it hurt to go through it. But we dont remember what it felt like. ❤

[@aniesha6614]

..and walk in that same correction that you give your children. It makes a difference

[@DivyaRaviraj]

So adopt basically

[@jobennett1604]

Can I just take a moment and express gratitude ‐ again - to Bible Project for the study, research, and teaching. And showing us [me] so, so much that I have never known about the Bible. Oh. My. Goodness.

[@princessdeelohim]

PLEASE MORE OF THIS!! More classroom study! LOVE this!

[@KnightFrodo]

I agree. The “punishments” God gives is about showing them the difficulties they are going to go through to build kingdoms because they wanted to do it on their own. Consequences of sin. They wanted to go through Death to bring Life. That’s the Cross.

[@nazinas21]

😮😮😮🤯🤯🤯🤯

[@ms.g4197]

Wow. Thank you for this

[@KnightFrodo]

@@ms.g4197 It’s no problem. 🙂

[@MrRJO123]

Woow ! Very good depiction, Christ has already done it for us so that we don't need to toil hard for our kingdom we can simply bring his Kingdom on Earth and it can be as easy as he said his yoke is. 🙏🏾 Thank God for God

[@KnightFrodo]

@@MrRJO123 Yes! Amen.

[@Protomorphean]

This content, this breaking down of THIS passage is desperately needed in the world. PLEASE, PLEASE make the whole discussion readily available as widely as possible!

[@mckenzieannabelle]

I love this discussion. It helped me clarify so much because I know God to be good and gracious, and this “punishment” always seemed unclear to me. I gave birth to my children without pain meds, and I loved it. Labor pains are small compared to all the other circumstances around being a mother: conception, living each day giving my body to pregnancy, the aftermath of a pregnant body, raising children in this difficult world, etc. The idea of childbirth being a punishment from God did not resonate with me. We create other humans as the fruit and labor of our life. It is a gift He gave only to women, not men and not angels. We create the vessels that will carry the soul destined for eternity. We get to nurture and love unconditionally as nearly He does. Of course there is pain with labor and birth. But the word pain isn’t descriptive enough for the context of being a mother. And did God multiply the sorrow or pain, or was God reflecting that man through sin multiplied their own sorrow? Tim really helped widen the lens here. There is more than pain in producing fruit. It’s grief and sorrow and toil that comes with every part of being a woman - from conception to birth, raising children in difficulty all the way to possibly seeing your own child die. “Pain in childbirth” is a Sunday drive compared to what producing fruit actually involves. The English translation seems to say “you’re cursed with pain in labor”. Maybe the Hebrew version says “mankind sinned, and now there is pain in the world such as labor pain or a broken leg. It’s just what it is. But being a woman means that there is increased difficulty in bringing forth fruit into this world. There is now a test to our faith for what we need most. The only way to produce successfully is to trust God, not scheme to get what we want”. And when we stop trusting God, like in the garden, then our pains around the work of our hands (being a mother) will be harder.

[@laurenrtyy]

Can you explain in a simple context of what the increase in child bearing means? Does it mean that he increased the pain in giving birth or something else?

[@kennethfok]

It is just so wrong to see many Christian’s women who simply believed that they are being cursed by God to go through the pain of childbirth. Why is it that people who called themselves Christians not exercise their faith by entrusting their birth to God? God is the creator of our lives and sexual reproduction and childbirth is of God as well. Since God created childbirth, shouldn’t we believe that God is in control of the birth process? Pain and discomfort is a definite thing because the human body was designed with a smaller birth canal and that is the price to pay for being able to walk on two legs instead of four. The pain is further elevated because women today have so much fear and anxiety even before they go into labour while medical practice actually made women lie in a position that causes even more pain just for the convenience of the doctors. We should be grateful to be human beings because some animals have it much worse than us. Just imagine some species of cats, the male penis have spikes and imagine the kind of pain the female cat goes through while having sex. Some other female animals like raccoons even give birth through a long penis liked structure. Imagine the kind of suffering. Women do have the privilege of creating a new life within their body and they have the ability to nourish their child both during and after pregnancy. That is something that men will never be able to experience.

[@wft15]

@@kennethfokI see it as a curse because it is a curse.

[@kennethfok]

@@wft15It isn’t exactly a curse. But it’s more about test of the woman’s faith in God. Will she rather put her trust in God during difficult moments like childbirth? Or will she rather rely on her own strength and end up being in fear and with lots of anxiety? It is the fear and anxiety that results in the woman going through more pain because her muscles tense up. Any random man that impregnates a woman do not feel her pain during childbirth. But if the pregnancy happens within a marriage that is instituted by God, the man will feel it because he is with her throughout the pregnancy right all the way till childbirth. Marriage is sacred to God, the whole sexual union leading to conception is sacred, even the moment of childbearing and breastfeeding is sacred. They are all made in the image of God. So the question to many modern women today is will you trust God during childbirth or will you rather suffer more pain because you relied on your own strength? No one forces anyone to make a particular choice. Even God does not force you to make a choice. It’s up to every individual to decide but God clearly spoke about what will happen when one chooses either of the choices.

[@wft15]

@@kennethfok what a load of nonsense!

[@workinabroad]

This helps me make sense of why some women get pregnant easily while others don't, some enjoy the carrying stage, others don't, some give birth easily while others don't.

[@tv4tvinc.330]

I love hearing the name of the Lord spoken out loud and kudos to Tim and the rest of the team for using it so freely. I’m not used to hearing other people say it out loud and I’m shocked and pleased every time!

[@brianevans4]

Gods name is so holy that godly Jews wouldn’t speak it or even write it down.

[@tv4tvinc.330]

@@brianevans4 Yeah they’ve done a video on it before!

[@jonah1234561]

The way this was broken down is amazing 😭😭 real studious nature to understanding the word of God

[@bridgetriley8239]

I wonder if the pain God meant was an emotional pain more than a physical pain… Being a mother of three daughters, I have went through both, but the hardest part is the emotional pain… Teaching them and loving and watching them go their own way, and make mistakes and always being there for them no matter what… I have learned through my daughters more about the love of God for me Than anything I’ve read in His Word, or went through…but the hardest is the loss of my oldest daughter four years ago, it is the greatest pain anyone could ever bear, which gave me a deeper understanding, and realization of the love of God, as well, sending his only begotten son, and watching Him being perfect and sinless suffer for my (our) sins… Now, when I think about that, I cannot bear the thought, and I break down in tears of shame and gratitude!

[@cmiller584]

My heart is with you for your loss

[@marylinhphan]

My mind was just blown away, and filled with thoughts now. That means good will make it more painful/difficult for people to have life both babies and food to live. And the pain of having kids is not about childbirth but from having the kids to pregnancy and raising them.

[@marthahailu2476]

We disobeyed and dishonored the only true and loving God and abandoned his ways and chose violence for our lives.. his response as a merciful father is not to destroy us but like Tim said in reference to Hebrews 12, for our own good, as a means to discipline and teach us to trust him and his good ways, he lets these pains take course.. just as we discipline our kids for their own good.

[@Ryanjoned163]

Your life is not falling apart it's falling into place in Jesus name amen

[@Mizzpinkperfect]

Amen 🙌

[@tylerhewlett4124]

Amen! 🙏😇✝️❤️

[@Daymickey]

Wow! Wow wow wow! This was so important for me. Not only did I need IVF to conceive my child, but my husband left me soon after she was born. Itsabon has been my life the last few months (maybe years) and I now can find it mirrored back to me in the garden. Thank you.

[@MMumbles]

As someone who was diagnosed with a debilitating and life-threatening disease, and needed a hysterectomy at just 24... I wish I heard this. For years, my pain was passed off as the "punishment" dealt out from the curse. I surely hope the your message reaches other women struggling with health and conception in similar ways.

[@moirarussell1950]

Wow! My young male friends who died from dangerous jobs. The sweet girls who couldn't get pregnant.Thankyou. So that was a great show everyone. Praise God who is just. We had it easy, we don't now, we will again

[@ugommaokorie1660]

I too feel like this has hit me like a huge lightning bolt and I'm so so so grateful for this lesson! This verse makes waaaaaay more sense now next to everything else. Thank you Tim! So grateful you unpacked this.

[@acewitts]

I believe that his explanation (as revealed to him) is the more accurate interpretation of that verse. Also, the background color and lighting of the room are so pleasing to the eyes and suitable for this kind of classroom study.

[@dear8129]

This verse really confused me since I was using NIV translation. And I just couldn't believe how painful is the consequences of Adam And Eve's sin for the next generation of women in their childbearing compared to the pain from a man's toil. It left me wondered "is this really God wants us women to feel as a punishment?". Now it really make sense. It's very clear to me now. Truly God is fair and just. His intention is always good. He lets us experience pain to strengthen our faith on Him.

[@stardogMLB]

I'm no biblical scholar but perhaps man's toil is a bit more significant than it seems. Famine drought, plagues etc.

[@kinglistosas5010]

Plus women are bullies. 😁

[@ggcrisp9762]

women suffer from famine, drought and plagues too tho@@stardogMLB

[@kennethfok]

Man’s toil is related to working hard to provide for his wife; the need for shelter and nourishment. Woman’s toil is to bring children into the world. The child needs nourishment regardless of whether it is in the mother’s womb or after it is born. So when the man toil to provide nourishment for his wife, she will then be able to nourish her baby. Man and woman function differently but their bodies were designed to complement each other. In the original context of God’s design (ignoring whatever is going on in the modern world), a man was designed to labour in order to provide for the family while the woman was designed to labour by producing offspring’s. And God commanded man to love his wife as God loved the church so the wife submits to the husband in various ways including through the act of sexual intercourse just as how believers respond to God’s love.

[@PhillipMelanchthon]

I loved this discussion, breaking through traditional readings yet remaining faithful to the text as well. One small thing to mention is that at this point Eve had not yet given birth to any children, noting in the next chapter that Cain was her first child. The experience of a 9-month pregnancy and prolonged labor was entirely new to her. Similarly, while Adam 'tended' the garden he had not known the back-breaking physical labor of tilling, planting, weeding, harvesting that would now be necessary for survival outside the Garden. If the human species were to survive, child bearing and delivery would now be necessary, where it had not been before. If the species were to avoid starvation, planting and husbandry would now be necessary. These "curses" were conditions that they brought on themselves, not Inflicted by a malicious God; made necessary by their choice to separate from God.

[@Ready-ForTheEnd]

This makes sense

[@ApocalypseLounge]

It's also a perfect metaphor for the loss of the protection of the Garden and Sabbath Rest in God! Now you will have Pain/Anxiety of/over your children born and raised outside of God's perfection. Brilliant study

[@Ryanjoned163]

Im a sinner but asked God for forgiveness now I'm free to live for God thanks for his son Jesus Christ

[@deannakay6607]

So, looking at the Iain Provan commentary, where he mentions Gen. 3:16 inlcudes the hardship and pain in which children are "raised, and in which they die," it sound like the curse is not limited to the labor of conception, but more to the point of the labor of raising the children. This then more mimics the man's labor as the lifelong process of toil, since raising children is likewise a lifelong process of toil. Correct?

[@Cmelolx]

This is great point that I was also wondering.

[@bayleightan]

mind blown I love that

[@Godwill3]

@eucharistangel4662 But notice how most women right after birth dont even mention pain, they are so elated that they child has arrived, the completely "forget" the pain They all speak of a euphoric feel, that scientist themselves have yet not been able to explain "halo effect"

[@ilz_y]

@eucharistangel4662did you not hear the whole section where he says that Hebrew has multiple words for birthing pains? But the word in this part of Genesis is not one of them…

[@MrsbeccaO]

I'm currently 11 weeks pregnant and I had this discussion with a friend, questioning why why why lol thank you so much for this teaching

[@Tyruke]

It seems like the King James Bible already had it correctly translated. I am surprised he didn't mention that. "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Genesis 3:16 (KJV)

[@jasminejensen4632]

I LOVE this. This is a mighty problem passage in the Bible that I do feel Is misunderstood quite often. Like, why would god “punish” a woman with bearing children, something that he has expressed in other verses, is a blessing. Bearing children is called “the heritage of the Lord.” It doesn’t make sense if taken in the way that it is commonly interpreted as. Thank you for shedding some light on this, it was very helpful.

[@laurenrtyy]

What does it mean by he will increase the sorrow and conception doesn’t that mean a painful child birth how do u understand this?pls explain it to me

[@jasminejensen4632]

@@laurenrtyy well, in this they talk about the way that “sorrow in conception” is interpreted as. “Sorrow”, I guess, basically means that you will have children and it will cause you grief. The “curse” was telling them that “this” was their new normal now. The “grief” he is referring to, isn’t just limited to the immediate and temporary pain associated with bearing a child, it extends beyond that, into the children sinning and falling away. If that makes sense. The “curse” for eve, wasn’t “just for eve” just like the “curse” for Adam wasn’t just for Adam. Of course women deal with the curse on the ground as well, and men deal with raising children as well. So if interpreted in this way, this includes both men and women in both curses. It makes sense this way, at least to me after watching this video. I was also always told that pain in childbirth was the curse, but if that was true, then why do animals experience the exact same thing. In fact, there are animals that have it far worse than humans. If you ask for the “Why?” In everything, you will have an eternal stream of questions. This “curse” may have been the answer to the “Why?” When asking about why childbirth is so painful. But when analyzing the original context, it doesn’t seem that simple to me anymore. As for WHY childbirth is so difficult, it’s probably because it’s sacred. No GREAT WORK in this life, was meant to be achieved easily. The greater the reward, the greater the sacrifice. If that makes sense. Bearing children is no laughing matter, nothing to take lightly, but so is the very concept of bringing a child into this world. It’s perhaps the most sacred thing that any of us can do. If it was easy, it would be almost insulting. Children would be seen as a “Whatever” sort of thing. That would be very bad.

[@kennethfok]

@@jasminejensen4632What you said does make sense. The greater the reward, the greater the sacrifice. Many consider it unfortunate and a curse upon women to go through child birth with great pain. But I’m sure that for the Godly women who have given birth, they see the pain in a different way. To be able to go through such pain to birth a new life into this world is indeed empowering. And the feeling of being able to create a new life with their body is something that only women will be able to fully appreciate and understand. While it is painful, God did not allow women to go through it alone. The institution of the marriage union makes the whole process from trying to conceive right up till child birth something that is sacred and shared between a man and a woman within their marriage. Child birth pain only happens during child birth, but men are continuously toiling just to provide for himself as well as his wife and children. And because of the sacredness of the marriage union, couples enjoy sexual intimacy and procreation without the woman thinking about the pain until the actual birth process.

[@kennethfok]

@@jasminejensen4632That’s a great explanation. It is true that some animals have it worst than us humans. And it was God’s desire that we humans enter the sacred union of marriage before having children. Even the act of sexual intercourse is considered sacred to God which is why premarital sex is a sin to God.

[@kymdickman8910]

13:20 Thankyou so much, Tim, for giving this exposé of this text. God bless you as you share God’s truth with the world! I am a 70yr old woman who used the Strong’s Concordance to help me understand the Hebrew in this verse about 30yrs ago. I had seen a Jewish translation of the creation narrative in a public library many years before, and was shocked at its message… so I determined to study it for myself. I found that the Hebrew did, indeed, not speak of labour pains in childbirth. I started sharing this good news with other women, coupling it with God’s blessing on ‘the fruit of my womb’ (Deuteronomy 28:11; 30:9). No one in my Baptist church took me seriously. I waited till today to hear from a scholar that what I had found was true.

[@rebone6550]

Hi Kym, would you mind helping me understand? I watched the video twice and for some reason I still do not understand what the verse was intended to mean.

[@kymdickman8910]

@@rebone6550 sure. As I understand it, God’s message to the woman was that what will come to pass as a result of what she did will be an enormous increase in her sorrow and pain. [What-will-come-to-pass) is birthed out of her decision to rely on that serpent’s words rather than her Creator’s words.] Her desire was to her husband - not to her God - and it [her desire] ruled over her. In sorrow/hardship/toil she will bring forth children …this is not the birthing process. It is the parenting process. God had blessed them saying be fruitful and multiply…. That blessing was no longer applied in its pure form. It was corrupted by Eve’s decision to turn away from her Creator.

[@rebone6550]

@@kymdickman8910 ohkay, I understands. That is kind of sad if you think about it. So simply put, originally being a parent was still going to be somewhat difficult but not as difficult as it is after the sin of adam and eve? But I guess it makes sense because it's like after they ate the fruit, they "knew too much" and sometimes "knowing too much" of something may bring a level of frustration, worry, and sorrow ESPECIALLY if you are a parent 😅... but I don't know, I'm still wrapping my head around this verse. Though I understand what you are saying. Thank you for shedding some light

[@kymdickman8910]

@@rebone6550 you’re welcome. It’s not that they knew too much; it’s that they didn’t have all knowledge about everything. Knowing Good and Evil without omniscience is deadly.

[@fushumang1716]

I think the last bit that Tim dropped was that about conceiving, how it will be so random that its not all about childbirth but the whole process of conceiving, including infertility, stillbirth, and grief of losing a child. Which is all true when the tree of life was taken away from Adam and Eve, the consequences of death and life had never had such a meaning until that day.

[@colwi7]

I just need to share that this is so insightfull into God's purpose in our life as a family. My husband genuinly mourns everyday that he has to spend time working (living to make money) instead of being with us (our daughter and I) and I mourn every second that I think I am no there to raise my child as God would want me to be. I also lament that my own limited and frigile derstanding might blindsight me from the way I should lead her to, and also how this world is trying every second to pull my daughter away from God's plans for her.

[@OliviaKathryn]

this video is a breath of fresh air. i was once told by a male theology professor that women shouldn’t get epidurals because they should have to “feel the full weight of their punishment”. i do have a question i’ve never been able to find an answer for: in the modern world where both men and women have to work (or toil the ground so to speak) does that mean women now bear the weight of both curses while men only have the one?

[@irenicrose]

No, we don’t bear two curses because that passage was not necessarily literal in that only men will have to work in the world. Both man and woman transgressed, but woman was cursed to painful childbirth and submission to her husband because she was the one to initiate the sin.

[@williammelloqueiroz]

Sister, I also see no reason why a woman should suffer the pains of childbirth. But wanting your brother to suffer the same amount of curses as you are is not a Christian. Normal childbirth is much healthier for both, but no man who loves his wife and children will prefer that they suffer with pain, not even the pain of work that the modern world requires.

[@katannakelly765]

I see what you're saying but when we have trouble conceiving or have those terrible thoughts that it's somehow our fault, I'm sure that our male partners feel the same grief. I think that in a way we both bear the consequences of both "curses". We both toil and work hard but we are also both affected by the grief or anxiety around conceiving.

[@ks21870]

As I understand it, God did not punish Eve and Adam directly when they confessed what they had done. He cursed and punished the serpent.. and cursed the ground for their sake. As a consequence of their choice they had to fall from the presence of God and experience sorrow and pain. But God expected this and provided a plan of mercy for Adam and Eve and their posterity to be redeemed. Eve was told her sorrow and conception would be multiplied.. other translations say God multiplied her “pain in childbearing,” but I think it is interesting that in the KJV it says He will multiply her “sorrow and conception”. Conception means fertilization in the womb, but also means the growing of thought, idea, design. I believe God was saying to the woman that he would multiply her sorrow in childbearing, but through that experience he would multiply her wisdom and design by having this very intimate knowledge of the depths of suffering and sacrifice for the saving of another life… something that would give her a very real and personal connection to and understanding of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God then told Eve that her desire would be to her husband and he shall “rule over” her. As I understand this phrase, this means because of the great demands childbearing and rearing would have on her, she would desire help and need to rely on the strength of her husband. (And he would need her support and faith-filled strength to stand as protector and provider) He would not rule over her as if he were a king and she were a mere servant, but rather it was more the idea that he was to watch over and protect her and their family, like a shepherd over a flock.. standing in authority against any threat that would seek to destroy or take His flock.. in this he would gain an intimate knowledge of the role of Jesus Christ as our sacrificial defense, shepherd, protector, provider. Remember all of this is very symbolic of Jesus Christ, his role and relationship with the church. Christ said we were to be joint-heirs with him, not lesser-heirs. God had commanded Adam that Eve should remain with him and that they should multiply and replenish the earth, so when she partook of the fruit she would be seperate from God and Adam, so in order to obey God’s other commandment, that she should remain with Adam and they should bear children, Adam took on the transgression of Eve and through the seed of the woman (born Jesus Christ), they would be saved. Don’t look at the suffering we have on earth as a curse or punishment, but look at it as an opportunity to come more intimately acquainted with God. Also the idea that a husband is above the wife in station and that the wife must ‘remember her place’ is simply false. Christ did not model the relationship that way. They are to be one, as God commanded.

[@grietjie93]

Oh goodness, I don't think that theology professor ever read the gospels. Why then, would Jesus had suffered on the cross?? Cool side note though, you can deliver a child with out meds Or pain. God lead me through a miracle birth like that. I was singing and praying and worshiping right to the end and never felt a single bit of pain. Nothing wrong with my pain tolerance, I definitely felt the contractions that after and those definitely hurt😂 not as much a s I imagine labor would have. I think God let me feel that so that I really "got" that I had experienced a miracle. When we keep our eyes on Him we are able to do endure anything :)

[@lisawoods5040]

Thank you so much for this study! I have always felt like the old testament portrayed God as disliking women or treating us differently as men and it always felt so wrong.

[@MichaelWilliams-eq4kt]

The irony is that societies that reject God and the Bible like the contemporary West devalue and treat women far worse.

[@wft15]

God is sexist throughout the bible. If you think otherwise, you clearly haven’t read it.

[@wft15]

@eucharistangel4662death is one of the few blessings life has to offer.

[@Alexis-wh2de]

Thank you for making and posting this. As someone studying several languages, I always know it's better to read a text in the language the author wrote it to really understand what's being communicated. I appreciate the clarity that looking at the Hebrew brings. This makes more sense than traditional "labor pain" teachings, as it frames Eve's consequence in the context of her original call to be fruitful and multiply. Truly, today, due to violence, disease, and cultural indoctrination conceiving, birthing, and raising children (especially god-fearing children) is a more arduous task.

[@virginiawalsh]

Thank you for publishing this excerpt from Classroom. I took this class (Adam to Noah) and learned a great deal. The segment that you highlight here is especially helpful to me as a pastor. Thank you!

[@artsyweirdo]

I’ll be going into labor for my first child in 8 weeks, and this video was extremely helpful to me. The “toil” or “struggle” or “labours” that both men and women will face at times will not last forever, but will be used towards Gods glory and goodness for us.

[@kristenjames4721]

I will be going into labor with my first in 7 weeks!

[@CCShorts]

In Genesis 3:16, the Hebrew word often translated as "childbirth" or "childbearing" is herayon, which specifically refers to conception or pregnancy rather than the act of labor itself. This nuance shifts the focus from a single painful event to the broader experience of childbearing, encompassing conception, pregnancy, and perhaps the entire process of motherhood. The biblically consistent understanding of this term highlights that the consequences of humanity's choice in the garden extend beyond isolated events, like labor pains, and touch on a more foundational aspect of human experience. The sorrow or pain described here relates to the entire realm of bringing forth life-a realm that was intended to reflect the beauty and purpose of God’s creative act but now bears the mark of sin’s impact. This sorrow aligns with the Bible's portrayal of the fall’s pervasive effects, showing that all aspects of human experience, including the continuity of life through childbirth, are touched by the weight of sin. Thus, this consequence does not simply refer to a biological process but symbolizes the altered experience of humanity's purpose to "be fruitful and multiply" under a new reality marked by struggle and suffering. This shift in understanding broadens our perception of the fall's impact, illustrating that the brokenness introduced by sin reverberates through all life-giving processes, touching everything God originally called "good" with sorrow and complexity due to human disobedience.

[@rmtynes]

I actually had a different thought than that woman who said that women will suffer in childbirth and men will have a bad day at work. The curse seem lopsided to me because it seemed like men would toil their whole lives and women would have labor pains sometimes. To me that boils women down to labor pains. I enjoyed this "new" or rather "original meaning" meaning because it makes it a lifelong effort for both of them.

[@mrs.garcia6978]

Yeah I’m not sure where she got “bad day at work” from. It was kinda icky the way she skewed it.

[@thestandingoak]

This is absolutely fascinating. I'm so grateful for all of Bible Project's work so far, but to listen to Dr. Tim Mackie dissect and contextualise the translation is truly incredible. Wow - the power of our words and their meaning. What a resource we have right here. Super grateful!

[@cyuper]

Thank God for you, Tim! Could it be that the frustration of the man's labor is a frustration of the command to subdue the earth and have dominion? And the frustration of the woman's labor and the circumstances surrounding it is the frustration of the command to be fruitful and multiply?

[@bayleightan]

That makes so much sense, I like that interpretation!! I really appreciate how you used the same word, "labor", in the contexts of man's "curse" and the woman's "curse". The words look the same but mean two totally different things but it's such a cool parallel!! Thanks for that :)

[@ramblin_h]

Wow 👊

[@bibleproject]

BibleProject creates free resources to help you experience the Bible. Everything we make is funded by generous supporters around the world. You can see our entire Classroom library, check out our other resources, and give at bibleproject.com.

[@utoobr10]

This was fascinating! Please publish part two, where they discuss the second part of Gen 3:16!

[@crabring]

This is fantastic, and does explain so much better the natural belief ive always been lead to or wanted to have with this passage. It does lead me to wonder why scholars haven't adjusted our translation to reflect this meaning better...

[@Vickiehou]

I read about some moms never got any pain while giving birth naturally, which means birthpain could never be a punishment of disobedience, since not every woman has the same pain giving birth.

[@lynncomstock1255]

3:20 The key observation is that the Hebrew word translated as "pain" for the woman is same word translated "toil" for the man, In addition this word is NOT the word for labor pain. The idea of this word is more general: about hardship and difficulty. 4:43 There are three specific, different words for labor pains. Finally, at 5:23, the word translated as childbirth or childbearing means "to become pregnant" which would seem to suggest the entire experience of pregnancy and birthing.

[@getitletitroll1455]

" That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil-- this is the gift of God." ~Ecclesiastes 3:12

[@GigiS333]

Thank you for you thoughtful and in depth interpretation of Genesis 3:16. It’s simply wonderful to have a better understanding of God’s intent for our lives. God is good.❤️

[@cody2901]

I love this presentation on the language and that it gets to the heart of the poetry of the OT we often don't dive into deeply enough. However, it's NOT unjust for God to assign physical pain or emotional grief to His creation, He is God and He is always good. Humanity tried to seize the blessing of God for themselves and become like Him, they are guilty and they "birthed" all that our world suffers from today. He shows them that they cannot do anything fruitful on their own. If anything, God was merciful to them in their sinful state, which all of us now naturally resist because of the curse of sin and death. God planned redemption, in light of their betrayal, and then we see Jesus, who truly didn't deserve any pain, any grief, any justice. He was truly innocent, but He chose to suffer, be humiliated, abandoned, and alone on the cross for the very ones who betrayed Him and the Father. We are totally at fault. Only by God's sovereign choice are we saved by His benevolent grace. Please consider that God allowing or causing pain is not evil. God is not evil or morally arbitrary. He is always good and He has redeemed us. Romans 5:6 "While we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly".

[@FJ-rh6io]

As a first time mom trying to prepare mentally for birth, I’ve really found birth to be a unique opportunity to fellowship with Christ in the cross. There are so many parallels! 1. We both suffer because of sin. Neither the cross nor painful childbirth were part of God’s plan A. The holy desire to bring forth and sustain life, be it the continuation or the salvation of humanity, inspired both Jesus and me to embrace temporary suffering for the lasting reward of seeing the Father’s will done. 2. Jesus lived His life knowing that the cross was ahead. Similarly, when you get pregnant, you know that this many months down the road, birth is inevitably coming. Jesus, too, braced Himself for impact and had to gather His strength in prayer. I get to follow in His footsteps and trust that I can endure the task set before me by the grace of God, just like Jesus did who had the power to put an end to it any time but chose not to for my sake. 3. Jesus had a vision on the cross of the ultimate victory of life, of resurrection, of family. He knew there was great reward coming after. Same with me! I’ll hold a child in my hands that I get to raise up in the way of life, and I’ll recover and be just fine. Our suffering is not random or fruitless. The difference is that Jesus went on the cross for sinners, declaring us worth every moment of pain before He got anything in return. When I go to suffer, in whatever scenario, I get to do it unto the Lord, who has always been worthy and deserving of our service. But because of the overwhelming goodness of God, I don’t have to do a thing that Jesus didn’t do for my sake first. In effect, God even redeemed this curse, making it an interactive demonstration of how great His love is. And only us women get to experience it. It really is a privilege, a faith- and character building exercise like no other.

[@PatrickKQ4HBD]

Oh wow FJ. As a father to seven kids, this is deeeep waters! We've only brushed up against what you've so eloquently described. ❤

[@FJ-rh6io]

@@PatrickKQ4HBD I'm glad you found this edifying :)

[@dliz325]

I felt this during my first pregnancy but you so eloquently articulated it ♡ thank you

[@chronic_daydreamer]

Incredibly well done! One thing I wanted to point out here was that everything Yahweh points out are the consequences of the removal of His blessing and protection due to the rebellion and choice for autonomous human self-rule. Where once He gave them trees good for food, essentially “low hanging fruit” and easy to acquire, now they would have to work the ground for barely any bread, and it would be painful to get, a lot of hard work. There are many cases in the Bible where the text says that God causes something but in essence, in many cases, it is actually Him allowing something to happen. For example, God doesn’t cause Pharaoh’s heart to become hardened. He allows it. It would be absurd to say that God caused Pharaoh’s heart to become stubborn so that He could punish Him, because it would be His own fault that Pharaoh became stubborn. No, He simply allowed it to happen because He dignifies all of us with free will (but does not protect us from the consequences of our choices as Pharaoh’s case so clearly demonstrates). While I don’t want to be dogmatic about how Yahweh increases this “itsabon” pain, the account seems to be God detailing the *consequences* of rebellion with the withdrawal of His blessing. The account goes on to describe how women would crave their husbands and be dominated by them. Again, this is not God saying He is causing this. God is not giving His approval for such domination. Eve was created as a complement and helper of Adam, not as a slave. And yet human history shows how men have cruelly dominated their wives instead of loving and respecting them. So yeah, it’s just really interesting to note the difference in “why did God cause all this pain and suffering?” to “Oh. This is what happens when God’s fullest blessing isn’t upon mankind.” This shows in great detail the difference between elevated, perfect mankind and the state we are currently in as imperfect people awaiting release from sin and death. “For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.” - Romans 8:20 (NIV)

[@lindsaymorrison7519]

It also just makes SO MUCH sense when you understand the cultural reality of Hebrews/Israelites and many humans well past the time of the Gospel. Men achieved security and wealth through labor, agriculture, etc. If they lived to old age, they needed their wealth to support them. Women, denied access to many men's jobs, usually achieved security through having children and maintaining strong relationships with relatives, so that if they lived to old age, they knew their families would look after them. Relying on God instead of the standard ancient "retirement" plan (husbands, get land and make money, wives, have kids who will share their land and money with you even if you become a widow) is an upside down kingdom.

[@matthewthomas0330]

GENTLE MASSAGE OF THE SERVICS HELPS IT TO OPEN UP BETTER KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

[@jeffsipos6432]

Men and women ultimately have little control over results, but must trust in God for the process

[@86mrbailey]

What’s fascinating is that the KJV and the NKJV translate this passage the same way Dr. Tim does. Just an observation that I find interesting.

[@nadiamcintosh2736]

God lamenting over the built in consequences of sin. Wow! I never thought about it like that. But it makes sense. It was never God's intention for us to live in a world riddled with sin, sickness, pain and death. There IS a pain deep within us as well, because deep within our hearts, our souls, or spirits, we grieve and lament, and we groan. But it's wonderful that God uses this to point us back to HIM. For us to realize that all that we do and have comes from His power and His strength alone.

[@speaktruth9313]

When I was devasted by a quite damaging forcep delivery and found some peace in relating to Jesus on the cross, suffering, being wounded for our redemption..sounds a bit egotistical but I was 20 and ripped from front to back and now at 72 still suffer from the trauma. No one understands like Jesus, he is more than life to me…

[@EternityinOurHearts316]

I had a Sunday School teacher talk about the trouble with translation of this passage. It was the first time I had heard of it and never heard it anywhere mainstream since.

[@josephposey406]

And there is many more! Happy hunting: See Revelation - Hell is cast in to the Lake of Fire Burning with Brimstone. Without translating, we have issues right away. The common teaching is Hell is the place of infinite judgement; but this passage says something contrary. Translated: Hades(grave-pit, u seen in Hebrew sheol) is cast in to the lake of fire(PUR)…Brimstone(sulphur, which is essential in metal purification) and TORMENTED ( Basanos-A touchstone: black silious stone used to test purity of precious metal; hence the verb because of extreme pressure rubbing against the object to reveal a streak). Totally different image!

[@nesiusxerius5936]

I can't believe that all is free in your app and it is a beautiful app, may God bless you more and your staff.

[@aarich119]

Wow talk about understanding of scriptures going over heads for centuries and missing the heart of God. Bravo

[@Jacob-wp7yp]

I love the format this is in. Would love if there were more like it released!

[@nickplays6420]

i like to think the pain he's referring to is 'grief' because now that they wanted 'knowledge' they're gonna have to live with the knowledge that producing children means the children now have to (eventually) die when they were originally meant to not die in their unfallen state. (the wages of sin is death, so to speak)

[@anal.mendoza]

May the Lord bless you all from santo Domingo, Dominican Republic! I really loved this video!

[@adelevissernoblelightdesig9935]

This is profound for me in terms of interpreting a spiritual dream. Thank you for bringing clarity and peace❤

[@boitumeloj.mangwagape9598]

What profound teaching of God's words and intent. It's truly mind-blowing. Thank you for these remarkable teachings. Bless your heart.

[@DHasan-nx8dz]

Thank you, Bible Project! These studies are great for those seeking a greater degree of understanding when studying the Bible. Your work is appreciated!

[@sabrenacochran777]

LOVE LOVE LOVE that he’s doing this! It’s so hard to figure out what’s true and who to learn the Bible from, Tim is one of the few I trust to teach me truth.

[@sammykat2hb]

This verse was one in a long line of things, biblical and cultural, that made me wonder why God created women just for them to be second-class beings. Tim was right to see that it has a real psychological effect.

[@johnfw1973]

This discussion was amazing and now the scripture passage makes a lot more sense to me and God's intent with what is said

[@joe9378]

it is good to learn how the translations may not necessarily be the correct original perspective, and it is good to learn the real intent or perspective..... i believe this is the way to "study" scripture(s) and God's word, in searching for Truth.

[@anointedgrowthmovement793]

It’s so funny she said poetry cause the first thing that came to my mind was English Literature❤️❤️❤️❤️God is a real true author 🙏🙏🙏

[@kriskriskris32]

🤯🤯🤯 that description IS my life experience. WOW

[@DrDhirajMahara]

so much blessed. we need more teachers like Dr Tim. just makes me cry.

[@jeannieappelhof1791]

This is wonderful to know. Thank you so much for bringing this to our attention. God bless you all at Bible Project for all you’re doing. ❤

[@isaacmwangaza]

I can’t say how much you have brought and shed light on this verse, thank you so much Guys🤝🏽

[@regenawilson8607]

Knowing the original language & being led by the Spirit to receive what God's heart truly was/is is beautiful, yet at the end of the day, we shouldn't need to "know" everything but trust that when we find something that our perception sees as "difficult" or "contradictory" to remember that God will not contradict himself, it's us & our finite mind. It's a great opportunity to just lean in & pray. So even if the punishment was pain, he does all things for a purpose.

[@trentbizub2161]

At the same time, I don't want to spiritually bypass seeking deeper understanding. I might be okay with shrugging off deeper learning of God's Word, but we have real people in our lives who are going through difficult things, and understanding Scripture helps us better shepherd others through hard circumstances. When we find difficult and contradictory passages, God wants us to both trust Him, but to also love Him with "all of our mind," and to "accurately handle the word of truth."

[@kymdickman8910]

@@trentbizub2161 Amen. We have women who have turned away from seeking The LORD because they believed that inaccurate translation, and saw our loving Heavenly Father as a sadist towards women. Let’s correct the wrong this has done!! 😊

[@smilecolorsan]

@@kymdickman8910 But Kym, Our God is Sovereign. He flooded the world and wiped-out masses because of sin. He allowed Satan to kill off Job's children to test his faith! He struck down men for simply touching His ark!. Our God is a powerful God to be feared! AND He is forever loving and merciful! He is compassionate and abounding in steadfast love and mercy! He restores and heals us! God loves you always, and sometimes love is tough! I share this so you are not fooled! But know that if He punishes us, it is also because He loves us greatly!

[@shelbymaddux9081]

When I came to this verse, I had a strange idea that I “got away with” an easier punishment as a woman than the man. As a broad view, depending on how many children I birthed (in my case, two) I only experienced approximately 48 hours of my “punishment”, whereas men had a lifetime of toil. I interpreted this as easier or better. This is a helpful conversation to give me better understanding of God explaining the new reality and hardship that has been brought to life because of Adam and Eve’s choices.

[@justchilling704]

lol that’s a pretty wild interpretation 😂

[@kennethfok]

Why would people see it as a punishment and yet continue to have more kids? I think the view of modern women (especially in highly developed societies) on childbearing has changed tremendously. Many today simply try to avoid having children by justifying that God cursed women with a great amount of pain.

[@HJasmine10]

Omg yes! When you study the first usage of “blessing”, it’s in Genesis, associated with “fruition and multiplication”. It’s always an increase of good things. “Curse” is also found in Genesis for the first time in with the association of barrenness, decrease, and death. So it makes sense that when he curses Eve, it’s the context of sorrow due to infertility, and not the physical pain. It’s nice to here it elaborated on

[@isabelzelada9065]

What me and my husband have been living since we got married seems to make so much sense now...

[@carmengale3311]

It reminds me of the pains of sex itself, incest, rape, petifilia, child brides, sex trafficking, and the ptsd that young girls into adulthood go through. And then a female is to be patient through it all, and eventually be healed over time as she has opportunity to be autonomous.

[@julianaaguilar4022]

I’ve asked God for a while, “ why were all this women infertile” and now I get it , thank you

[@jerimow8400]

Wonderful discuss! Thanks to all of you!

[@nesiusxerius5936]

From the comments that I read maybe 17hrs to 4 days, some have different kinds of questions, reactions in context to each circumstances but I just want to say that God is sovereign and just like any bible characters in the book, it always comes down to faith and trusting God because man is not perfect but only God through his Word and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you will be able to understand your own burden, trials and testing.

[@WoodRabbitTaoist]

Thank you for this video. I'm here because i had an epiphany while i was out for a walk yesterday. I always thought that God cursed the serpent, the woman, and the earth because of the man. It dawn on me while i was out walking that he really only cursed the serpent. The pain in raising children and the ground bringing forth thorns and extra toil were not a curse but the natural result of adam and eve's sin in eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil and not a direct curse. Thank you for confirming and elaborating.

[@PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

Love this episode and the wisdom shared. I don't think the emotional grief named by God in Genesis is a punishment at all. Rather, holes in the deception of the enemy (the dragon) that can potentially lead us back to truth, back to God. They are blessings meant to catch our attention and lead us to self reflection seeking to solve a problem.

[@kennethfok]

Looking at the comments, it seems that many young women today look at the pain in a very negative way. If sex and childbirth is from God, surely there is a lesson to be learnt from what women go through. It is a reminder that we can’t accomplish things with our own strength but only by putting our trust in God. Even men have to go through their own kind of suffering by having to work hard to provide for his wife and children.

[@PraiseYahforHeisHoly]

@@kennethfok , I do not believe the pain is the issue for women. Women have managed all these years. Throughout history, women have provided financially for their families, whether through assisting husbands farming, running businesses, alone as widows, as single mothers, or in 2 income families. A man has never shared in the physical pain of bearing a child. The meaning Tim has provided resonates with women, I think , because surely men do share in the emotional grief of having children in some way. Men and women are equal in the eyes of God. Women were not given the short end of the stick. Maybe 🤔

[@stephenhill6143]

I love EVERYTHING about the Bible Project!

[@RCH3220]

Love that point of it being God's lament, revealing the new normal the humans made for themselves. It reminds me of Jesus'words on palm Sunday, or the other prophetic laments over Jerusalem or the people of coming disaster. It is punishment, but more so a revelation of the culmination of their own sin. Such a great point

[@Mikendlela27]

Thank you sir. I started watching religious videos right after I found out about this channel.🙂❤️

[@cuddles007]

I absolutely enjoy your content. I actually read over this passage last night and pondered on that same verse because I always wondered if that's what the verse really meant. Thank you for this deep dive into the true meaning of the Hebrew text. I truly appreciate it.

[@tylerhewlett4124]

Thanks be to God! 🙏😇✝️❤️

[@thepratts101]

I love this. I now understand. It's not the labour pain, it's the whole process, ( anxiety, argony, etc) My question is the Hebrew translation of Herayon is -(being pregnant) and Hara is conceive What is the Hebrew word for giving birth, that day when the child comes out of the womb and into the world?

[@noahs_ark777]

Be still, and know that I am God (Psalms 46:10) 🙏✝

[@trinigerian]

Wow!! So amazing and I thank God that I came across this. I was reading chapter 3 the other night and verse 16 really stood out to me. I couldn’t figure out the purpose and how it connected to Eve’s sin. Best I could come up with was that God would use her offspring to defeat the serpent and it won’t be easy for her. No pain, no gain.

[@kinglistosas5010]

Eve brought forth the serpent seed (cain) and the righteous seed (seth)

[@kinglistosas5010]

One line leads to CHRIST (THE MESSIAH) the other leads to the man of sin ( anti-christ)

[@jensen2310]

These round table type studies are great to watch.

[@mr.thomas8091]

This is sooo good! Dr. Mackie is the man...

[@briannaduncan6996]

This video is very intriguing! I love to learn more about the things of God and truly understand the Bible and this video helps me with that a lot. Keep these videos coming

[@DarylCook63]

Regarding the increase in sorrow/pain in conception, I believe that God is providing a practical object lesson for women to feel what He feels. The other factor which is overlooked in this episode is that due to the increase in cost for children, mothers will instinctively love and cherish each child even more, approaching God’s love for each of us. Psychologically speaking, the greater the initiation cost, the greater the appreciation for the “purchase”. (This is exactly why gangs require such painful initiations -it works!) Thus, what on the surface appears as punishment was in essence a way for God to teach us how dearly we are purchased by Him.

[@BloodCovenant]

Very interesting especially the new normal and intent angle. Can't deny that there is pain in childbirth though. That is a reality.

[@kymdickman8910]

But, God didn’t increase it as a punishment on all daughters of Eve👏🏽

[@Luiz__Silva]

​@@kymdickman8910 so you believe there was pain in Eden? Not much of a paradise then.

[@jellyfish0311]

​@@Luiz__Silva just because it might not be part of the "punishment" doesn't mean it had to exist in the paradise. Remember that the whole creation fell into disarray after this event. It's not written that God said to the winds "I will confuse your path and make you bring destruction to the lands" but we still have tornados. It is part of the things that don't exist in complete harmony.

[@Luiz__Silva]

@@jellyfish0311 Well, but in this case God did say something. There's a direct logical connection in the text, despite of the attempt of reinterpreting ot made in this video by a guy who thinks he knows more than all scholars in history because he looked at a Hebrew dictionary and learned certain words can have multiple meanings. No good Bible reader would disagree that the curse of sin extends to all areas in life and nature, not only child bearing or agricultural work. God has a purpose for all pain and suffering. Those are always present reminders of our fallen condition and need of a savior. However, all this nonsensical blabbering that tries to support a feel-good type of theology is only detrimental to the gospel in its attempt to appeal to modern audiences. A sharp and strong labor pain is indeed a reminder of the fall, just as a life spent in labor a man undergors in irder to provide for a family. Just because the curse does not apply equally to all individuals at all times, it does not decrease the truth behind the principle in any way. Men have always tried to flee from the consequences of their sin and modern medicine can provide some temporary relief but in the end it changes nothing about their condition and eventually evevody will have to face the true consequences of sin, unless they repent and are saved. This is the gospel. Creative interpretations of the Bible are worthless.

[@jellyfish0311]

@@Luiz__Silva well I don't disagree with your words, I'm just saying point A doesn't necessarily lead to point B. Point B in this case being "pain in Eden". That is all.