Does It Matter if the Critical Role Cast Doesn’t Know the Rules of D&D?

[@SupergeekMike]

What other aspects of Critical Role Discourse would you like to hear me talk about in the future? Thanks so much to WorldAnvil for sponsoring this video! Visit www.worldanvil.com/supergeekmike and use the promo code SUPERGEEK to get 51% off any annual membership! www.worldanvil.com/supergeekmike Check out Adventure April: www.worldanvil.com/community/challenge/adventure-april-2024/homepage

[@TheBahamaat]

I think the discussion about bias for relationship partners is worth it just to deal with how bonkers talking about the issue can be. It is a definite risk, but then so is any prioritized interpersonal relationship - real or perceived. There is also the issue of overcorrecting for an accusation or perceived bias, making things harder on them or singling their PC out for negatives, in order to appear 'fair'.

[@mattbriddell9246]

The notion that campaign 3 is "scripted" (or at the very least heavily contrived)

[@DxReaper120]

It was campaign 2 Talisen remembered the bonus action thing

[@hadesblackplays]

what was the last episode you watched C3? because im sure you have seen some of the discussion around C3 being bad, the worst or isnt clicking for certain people because how matt has been handling the overall narrative. And as you said yourself, C1 is very plot driven, from one point to the other, while C2 was (or felt) more like a sandbox and C3... well, i cant say because i dont know where are you at. So I would love to know your opinion on the differences or most common ideas for long-tem campaigns, how to handle them, the narrative (and the subtext around it) one as a dm has to deal with it.

[@shadowhell8378]

I did cast daylight in a Curse of Strahd campaign thinking it would be sun light before.

[@drexalnewb1500]

On the topic of misleading spell names, shout out to Chill Touch. It is a ranged spell that does necrotic damage

[@sarahlanger2605]

Used it just this weekend and triple checked that it wasn't a touch spell ^^

[@braydenchadwick9836]

There is a frost fingers spell which I think works exactly how you’d think as well

[@quincykunz3481]

@@braydenchadwick9836 Frost fingers is a play on "burning hands" and is a cone, not a touch spell. Still closer to right than chill touch though.

[@braydenchadwick9836]

Just checked. WHY is it a cone

[@quincykunz3481]

@@braydenchadwick9836 because burning hands is a cone, because flamethrower hands are cool.

[@EmperorKnightlock]

"I got a 73, what does that do?" Matt: NOTHING. You dont roll for scry. "8 YEARS. 8 years people" Was a funny moment and one of the best of the episode. If you advertise yourself as a pro player channel people will be upset when you're not that. But they dont. They just have a good story and have fun and funny moments while they play.

[@DarcOne13]

They've not just NOT advertised themselves as pro-players; they've made it very clear that they're friends having fun telling a story that they're letting us watch. Fun first, story second, rules third.

[@ffreed]

⁠@@DarcOne13Yeah, one of the FIRST sentences spoken in the Vox Machina campaign was about how they were going to be “loosy-goosy” (Mercer’s word choice) with the rules for the sake of moving the game forward.

[@kevinwheeler7427]

They mention all the time that they don’t know how to play. Professional DnD players were never promised.

[@EikeSky]

​@@DarcOne13 "a bunch of nerdy ass voice actors gather round and play dungeons and dragons" Rest of the table "WE PLAY DUNGEUDKSH AAHHIIBFBME FHAKAJGOOOOOOOONNSSSS" "Thank you Travis." Clearly professionals taking it seriously. While I have my gripes about the C3 characters, knowing now what they were no doubt working on when this was all started, I'm not surprised these characters were so much more lighthearted. And, while Matt said C3 would be more deadly and C1&2, I don't think the table were expecting whatever _The Legend of the Peaks_ is. I'm sure every hint that Otohan is nearby has thrown all of them into a fit, knowing how badly they can get their ass handed to them, regardless of how much they prepare.

[@lukasfraser1411]

Matt has also said many times, they aren't playing for the audience, they're playing for themselves. They don't care about the little things and would be happy to go back to playing a home game

[@stJules]

I loved how Mark Hulmes „taught” cast of BG3 in their session. Ask them to read the ability outloud, optionally correct and suggest action that would meet their expected goal. I would say thats a golden standard in teaching complicated stuff like spells to players.

[@aniqueevans1547]

I was going to say the same thing! It's such a great idea, especially since most of the players were new to 5e. It gets them used to the concept of reading their spells fully so they know how they work. Obviously CR never had that luxury, starting at such a high level, and by the time they were starting a new campaign they already had an established way of doing things that it would seem strange to suddenly make that commonplace.

[@mattbriddell9246]

Among their many other fine qualities, Mark is an outstanding DM when it comes to teaching new/newish players about the game while it's going on and keeping the game flowing smoothly.

[@AGrumpyPanda]

@@aniqueevans1547 They didn't start at a high level, season 1 was an extension of their home Pathfinder game. The latter part of that sentence is the important part, up until that point it was mostly an excuse to get together and socialise that they played very irregularly, so they didn't any expectations put on them.

[@lukasfraser1411]

​@@AGrumpyPandathey only played like that because they would only play while Ashley was home, and even then they would play 8-10 hour games.

[@StuffSayoSays]

Mark is such an underrated DM. People really should give High Rollers a chance as Mark is a very skilled and wonderful DM. Always teaching his players new or old, and open to learning and accepting his mistakes. Even to retcon some homebrew rules he implemented just so game flow and balance is much fairer to the players. Love watching their group specifically when Mark crossdresses. 🤭

[@Sootielove]

I also think it's interesting comparing Critical Role to Dimension 20 in this regard. I do think the D20 cast are more focused on figuring their way creatively through battles where CR leans harder into the world and characters, but I also think people forget D20 is edited. They've explicitly said during some of their live shows that they cut out a bunch of counting dice, reading rules, and figuring out their turns. The players and DM are incredibly skilled performers, but edited play always feels effortless in comparison.

[@jamieadams2589]

But they do edit that stuff out, which means the audience don't have to see it and be taken out of the moment. CR could easily edit out the same things but don't

[@pippastrelle]

@@jamieadams2589 The premise of CR is 4+ hours unedited actual play. It's not trying to be super edited. It's supposed to be more like just watching a game of DnD, and you either accept the warts and all or watch an edited actual play instead. (Plus, Dimension 20 films in, like, 1-3 hour sessions while CR is 4-6 hours. Editing is a much bigger load for CR).

[@weeklyfont]

I think the comedy nature of D20 means people dont get as mad when BLM throws a rule out the window. One of his DM onboarding strats is also giving people cards with spells on it, which you could see Ally shuffling through and asking about during their first campaigns. Funny thing is every TTRPG is at the whim of GM fiat so really any grognard posting about how any actual players weren't playing "by the rules" is inherently wrong.

[@mattbriddell9246]

D20 also has the advantage (or disadvantage if you're Brennan) of having a player the caliber of Emily Axford at the table on the "creatively figuring their way through battles" bit- in the sense that she is an unparalleled master of finding that ONE little detail that Brennan may have overlooked or that ONE little quirk of a particular spell or ability that nobody else ever thinks of and using that to absolutely demolish whatever encounter the party is in. She's creative as all get out but doesn't need to stretch into "rule of cool" territory because she inherently knows how to get the absolute limit out of her character's own abilities.

[@TeroTheShortOne]

@@mattbriddell9246 Emily and A Crown of Candy is why I am absolutely *obsessed* with Storm Sorc/Tempest Cleric multiclassing and pushing to see how I can break things with them.

[@BiggestGal]

"D&D has some misleadingly named spells." *glaring angrily at Chill Touch*

[@silversugar2140]

THIS. Granted, now that I understand the spell I get why it's called that but it is a complete misnomer (I do find some misnamed spells to be interesting on some level and make lore reasons for it in my games haha) granted; no idea what else I'd call it instead.

[@Fl0wchart]

@@silversugar2140 BG3 Calls it Bone Chill, and I have fully embraced calling it this, despite the fact some of my players don't know which spell that is.

[@silversugar2140]

@@Fl0wchart I love that! God I wanna play BG3 so badly. One day. TwT

[@weaselwolf]

You mean "Ghost Ray"?

[@Surikoazimaet]

Daylight and Detect Good and Evil: Wazzup, homie!

[@shrewprincess]

I was terrified of playing a caster when I first started. I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to keep up. Watching Marisha make "mistakes" and still be loved by her table gave me the confidence to try. The Paladin I played next is my favorite character to this day.

[@mentalrebllion1270]

Same for me with finally taking up druid actually. I was a bit wary because of how much of their mechanics there is to juggle and how much information there is to recall in very fast paced situations. Now I have two druid characters that I play in two different active campaigns, a moon and a dreams circle. They are a blast to play and really are helpful to the party. And I just have good groups and patient DMs for when I stumble when running these characters. Marisha and the support she is shown really helped me get to a place where I felt I could give it a shot and I’m happy I did so.

[@crystallovingfairy1]

I love this. This is actually one of my worries as someone with ADHD I don't remember stuff well. I've only played a few more shots with my cousin and I'm worried to find a group because of this

[@MrSpectruElegiac]

" You don't roll for scry. " That acene always cracks me up in campaign 3.

[@sparklefulpaladin]

Yes! I almost fell off my chair because I was laughing so hard after that 😅

[@CufflinksAndChuckles]

I'm reminded of when Emily Axford joined the party for a bit and during a 4-sided dive they asked her how she was so good at playing her character. Emily basically said that she just read her spells and thought of using them in theatrical ways.

[@DrSmoothlove]

She also does the same thing as the cast of critical role sometimes too. Watching naddpod, she treats chill touch like mage hand because it talks about summoning a spectral hand. It's a combat cantrip and she doesn't have mage hand, but because she wants to interact with things at a distance, she convinced the DM that a hand is a hand. It's one of those things that bugged me, but I'm not going to make a big deal out of it or anything.

[@aoibhinquinn7310]

The "using your action to do a bonus action task" thing is something that we've always houseruled at my tables. I didn't realise it used to be an actual rule

[@tobiaslundqvist3209]

Edit "Oops answered the wrong comment sorry!" The issue is in the fact that potions can mimic powerful spell effects. Casting haste or stoneskin as a bonus action sans concentration could make the game rather messy. It's hard to manage the availability of potions as it relates to the actual steep cost of actions and resources spent by dedicated casters. A minor healing potion or any potion that mimics the effect of a bonus action spell would be fine in the balance sense but then more powerful potions only taking a bonus action becomes a problem. The way I see it, in my campaign, I don't see how this could be implemented consistently. But I can definitely see the appeal :)

[@struanroberts]

@@tobiaslundqvist3209i think they mean that an action usually being a more “important” thing than a bonus action, so using an action to do a bonus action thing isn’t overpowered. It would likely be the other way round though.

[@tobiaslundqvist3209]

@@struanroberts yeah I realized :) I put it in the edit.

[@wolfox7776]

I think the thing I like most about how Will Wheaton was during his time as a guest player: He accidentally tought most of the cast about failing forward.

[@SupergeekMike]

Some people were put on this earth to serve as an example to others 😂

[@wolfox7776]

@@SupergeekMike mich agreed there

[@mattbriddell9246]

I would say it's not necessarily a matter of them "not knowing their spells" as it is trying to apply Rule of Cool and look for creative ways to use spells in a few too many situations that get some people riled up.

[@uli11]

I actually think they are playing a better game as a result. They are focusing on trying to live up to the narrative spirit rather than the mechanical spirit of the spell. I think the narrative matters more than the game, in a tabletop rpg designed to create a shared story. In the context of Critical Role, I think the players are trying to come up with a fun narrative, and Matt plays a key role as the DM in determining if their vision fits into the world narratively. I love it. And I think it's how I prefer playing as well- i want to tell a cool story, and I want to trust my DM to be able to tell me if my interpretation of the spell in universe would work narratively.

[@gabrielcardoso8732]

Love the show, but it can also break immersion sometimes. I remember a one-shot where they bypassed a battle by casting animal friendship on a clearly-not-beast monstrosity... It was 'cooler', I guess.

[@damiens4601]

I like that, what riles me up is confusing save and check all the time, and not understanding when they are used

[@jamieadams2589]

But it's rarely a creative way to use the spell. They often just think a spell does or should work a different way.

[@uli11]

@@jamieadams2589 i think they are pretty creative. And I think you're a hater.

[@thystldown]

No spoilers because you’re behind on the current campaign, but *gosh* your points about RAW vs Rule of Cool and Critters hating change hit hard after the last couple of weeks. Also I think you’re making very good and reasonable arguments, and so much of it just boils down to the all-purpose rule of “don’t be a dick.”

[@whirlingnerdish2734]

It always makes me sad when someone shares a story about something cool or fun that happened in their game, only for someone to respond with, “That couldn’t have happened because X is against the rules and Y only allows Z.” As Liam often quipped in campaign 1, “Your fun is wrong!” Congrats on the baby, Mike! That’s awesome to hear!!

[@j.bat.8235]

Honestly? If I have to bend a rule to allow a player to create a cool/emotional/relevant scene, I would do that *every* single time. And I'm somewat strict and rule-lawyer-y as both a DM and a player.

[@telarr9164]

Exactly. It would be different if they were bending Dimension Door to bamf into the belly of every monster they met... but once in a campaign for an epic boss battle? Into the belly of an ACID DRAGON?! That's peak DnD! Denying it cos the RAW says so is a choice but there's no way that denying it improves drama.

[@McCrackenVaughn]

What’s an example of a situation you wouldn’t change the rules for?

[@MrRman100]

"trying to order a hotdog from a hardware store" me, as an Australian thinking there's nothing wrong with that

[@TheTerrainWizard]

Some hardware stores in the USA have hotdog carts at the entrance : )

[@TheTerrainWizard]

Some hardware stores in the USA have hotdog carts at the entrance.

[@Spider-Man_234]

Me in new zealand, thinking the same thing

[@AndrewFord-f9x]

Misleading spell names - the Dungeon Dudes called Find Traps "Confirm My Paranoia" :)

[@ashboren6845]

it upsets me when ppl rag on ashley bc she’s clearly been going through a lot of personal issues this current campaign, she has stated that she struggles with adhd, this is her first full campaign where she’s at every game, and she’s playing a druid which like you said has so many spells. it’s not that she doesn’t care-she’s clearly so invested, and just gets flustered easily. there’s room for improvement but it doesn’t look to me like she’s not trying or doesn’t care.

[@SupergeekMike]

"They're getting it wrong, therefor they aren't trying" really does seem to be the core idea behind this complaint, and like you said, I just disagree so strongly with that claim.

[@fakjbf3129]

I am 100% okay with her not knowing all her spells or not memorizing the stat blocks for her wildshapes. But it is slightly frustrating when she doesn’t know the stat block for Mister, since that basically hasn’t changed in three years and she has to be reminded he can do stuff like fly and teleport. And because she doesn’t remember what he can do she often doesn’t use him for anything at all, which is unfortunate because it’s a really useful feature of her subclass plus I love the way Matt roleplays him.

[@pippastrelle]

@@fakjbf3129 Again, you boil down to "They're getting it wrong, therefore they aren't trying". Mister is a whole other bunch of mechanics to master on top of a high-level druid. What might be easy for you to remember and keep up with isn't necessary easy for her.

[@fakjbf3129]

@@pippastrelle I never said she’s not trying. Just because someone is giving their best effort doesn’t mean it’s not frustrating to see them fail at a task. Also the “whole bunch of mechanics” for Mister is literally a single stat block that fits on a notecard.

[@pippastrelle]

@@fakjbf3129 Apologies, genuinely, I realise that was a bitchy way of saying that on my part. I guess just because mechanical faffing doesn't bother me, it was wrong to assume it didn't bother other people. Hope you have a good day x

[@alanleckert1]

2 sessions ago, a player used Suggestion on a wraith. Buried in the text it says that creatures immune to Charm are unaffected, but he didn’t read that out to me. Another player then reminded us that damage ends the spell. I get that spell descriptions are long sometimes, but I can’t know every spell on the fly, and I don’t want to have to look it up every time

[@Aurora_Lightbringer]

Now imagine trying to make a ruling live without taking too much time whilst you know there's thousands of people watching you, some of them waiting to pick apart your rulings and mistakes. It does seem like an impossible task.

[@kevinwheeler7427]

Sometimes it’s ok to just let it slide and try to remember for later.

[@DK.Wicked420]

Not criticism, just curious as a fellow dm. Couldn't that just be attributed to insufficient prep work? As a DM I keep a list of my players' known spells with specific notes for spells.

[@Robbedem]

@@DK.Wicked420 what level are your players and how many type of casters are at your table? It's certainly doable in the beginning, but it won't take long before your notes become the entire handbook. ;)

[@kevinwheeler7427]

@@DK.Wicked420 that’s a good idea, but could be tricky for prepared spellcasters who could change their spells daily. Even with perfect prep, mistakes are still going to happen. It’s not something that a DM should dwell on or beat themselves up over. The worst thing you could do is grind the entire game to a halt to discuss a rule or look up sage advice, because then everyone’s fun stops.

[@pippastrelle]

The level of entitlement towards how the CR cast play is sad when you see it. It's not your game, dude; it's theirs. If you don't like the direction or pacing or strategies or rules, who cares? It only matters if the players complain. You can stop watching. They'll keep playing. That "Know when you're trying to order a hotdog from a hardware store" is such an important lesson as an audience member. Sure, it's sad when I've had to drop a show because it was going in a different direction to what I wanted but I'm happy that some people like it that way.

[@weeklyfont]

That it took 30ish episodes instead of 2 to kill the chat on screen is a testament to their patience

[@Boom12]

​@@weeklyfont so called nerds really enjoy gatekeeping their games for sure. CR fans, the nerds who wanna defend masculinity because they hate SJWs, when many of their fave comics touch subjects about social justice... yeah, masculinity is defended by entitled, sweaty men who can't find a girl for themselves.

[@pippastrelle]

@@007ohboy Oh, boy, I hope you don't talk to real people like that. You need to do something better with your life than stalking people you don't like on the internet 😅 Didn't think people like you actually existed. Wow.

[@crazy36069]

In some hardware stores, you can order hotdogs… Bunnings, for example

[@stalwartoffender9292]

What's annoying to me, more so than any toxic behavior or constant attempts at skirting the rules, is the fandom. The audience that goes mama bear mode if you point out something in the show you don't like. The people that act like the cast are their best friends and will take any criticism as a personal attack that ruins their day. People are so frickin weird.

[@nehahradm1804]

Negative reinforcement = removing a negative stimulus to reinforce a desired activity. Positive punishment = adding a negative stimulus to discourage undesired activity.

[@badwolfCR]

I've played multiple spell casters in 5e. As you level up, there is so much to remember. It's really difficult to remember all spells and feats (druids in particular as they also have wildshapes as well). You'll always forget things and make mistakes. I'm not sure alot of the people who make these complaints have much experience playing spell casters.

[@kazeboiii]

This. I’ve been playing for almost a decade now & DMing for three of those years-certainly not as long as some, but long enough to know that it’s impossible to remember all those details. This is why we have reference materials and when you’re in the moment, you’re bound to miss something or misremember or misread! It’s just a part of the game and there’s no sense in holding up the game over it!

[@lordelon9955]

@@kazeboiii It doesn't help that even with playing 5e in its earlier stages where there were less spells. And now? So many books add spells, subclasses, and new abilities for updated races that even all these years later, I still don't know everything and I'm not going to try to. It would make a DM go insane to try to on top of running a game and everything that comes with it.

[@kazeboiii]

@@lordelon9955 Exactly! Will never understand the people who get hung up over it

[@PkBearMan]

In defence of DM's it can be a slightly annoying thing for them, as they have, let's be honest, a whole lot more to juggle and remember. Plus, most issues are resolved by just reading the spell/ability

[@kazeboiii]

@@PkBearMan As a DM, it's not at all that annoying. It's completely understandable, if you've some level of empathy. Like, yeah, read your spells and have references available at the table to double check when necessary, but it's unreasonable to expect your players to always get it right in the moment. People are human and humans make mistakes, especially when tensions are high.

[@bradygroves988]

I totally let "Find Traps" reveal the location of the trap as a house rule. It's a 2nd level spell that is instantaneous, and without a location it can be almost a complete waste. For example, in a large antechamber, knowing there's a pitfall trap or a glyph of warding within 120ft of you is virtually useless information. You now have something like 1000 squares to investigate. I have it work like Locate Object (also a 2nd level spell) and give the caster the general direction and distance to the trap, which usually narrows it down to a handful of tiles.

[@MajorHickE]

I do the same thing with the ranger's Primeval Awareness. Doesn't come up a lot anymore thanks to Tasha's, but it at least makes the ability worth using.

[@korenn9381]

Mercer does the same.

[@Rodshark75]

Yeah Find Traps finds traps and Find the Path finds a path in my campaigns.

[@zippomage]

i rule that daylight creates sunlight. It's a third level spell, let it do what it say it do on the tin.

[@Aurora_Lightbringer]

It makes perfect sense for it to be sunlight.

[@EvilLobsterKing]

I consider myself a prefty savvy d&d player. I like to think I know a lot of the intricacies of how dungeons and dragons work. And I got very excited to use the Daylight spell to exploit some enemies sunlight sensitivity while playing Baldur's Gate 3. I fell for one of the classic blunders.

[@MrSeals1000]

It's really weird that it's a 3rd level spell for all it does. Making it actual sunlight makes sense. If I'm giving up fireball, it better be for a good reason and not a glorified cantrip

[@beardedpancake8847]

That's been one of my rules as well, though sadly it's never been used. I also make it so, spell dependent, spells that target a creature can also target an object. There is zero reason you shouldn't be able to hit the chain holding up a draw bridge with an eldritch blast.

[@kevinwheeler7427]

It’s better than a cantrip because it works in magical darkness

[@merchantarthurn]

The density of rules to remember and hesitancy about getting it wrong is why i didnt get interested in dnd until my boyfriend recommended BG3. Having the computer do the maths and learning the rules in a space where it only affected me (and i could reload for frustrating mistakes where id misunderstood something) helped a lot. DMs being steadfast on rules is something that continues to put me off the local ttrpg scene (it feels very min-maxy rather than roleplay and narrative focused)

[@raylea72]

See if you can find an online group. It is so so so worth it to find a group of people you really vibe with and play make-believe with new friends... and bonus! the computer does the math!!! We have a friend in England that we play with on Friday nights (early morning for him) and I wouldn't trade him for the world, we found him through Roll20. Keep looking. There are excellent dms and player groups out there that would love to have you at their table and, just as importantly, that you will love being a part of.

[@lordelon9955]

My best advice is if you have a friend you trust that DMs, or even your boyfriend if he does, have them run a one-shot at a low level with a small party. Like 3 or 4 people that are experienced and are willing to help new players, or are as new as you and ready to learn alongside you. That way you don't feel that pressure, and it makes it more enjoyable to learn alongside someone, because it doesn't feel like you're the only new player at the table that everyone looks at like the noob and are getting annoyed that you can understand the "basic" rules. I did this with my girlfriend and while it took her a while to really get into the roleplaying, she loves the game and looks forward to my games as well as a game I now play in that a friend of mine DMs. It's just nice to be able to share something you're passionate about with your SO, especially something like D&D. It definitely helps starting on BG3, and you might find it easier to get into the tabletop because of your experience with the game.

[@gandolf7777]

Really enjoyed this video. I still talk to myself while watching when I think Matt rules wrong or a player forgets how a spell works, but I would never harass the cast about it and I've never understood what kind of person does. The outro clip perfectly sums it up. This is a game that they have said since the beginning is a game for the tables fun first and only. They appreciate us watching, but the game if fun for them and that is the only thing that really matters. I'm just glad they let us come along for the ride, because I really enjoy it.

[@starhound9354]

Find traps not actually finding traps still baffles me.

[@BetaBRSRKR]

Too often I tell my players "keep reading" when they try to use a spell or feature...

[@SupergeekMike]

I honestly think if Matt did this, it would solve so many of the issues.

[@super_sloth_man6443]

So true! with spells especially

[@SCI-FIWIZARDMAN]

SAME. Cannot count the number of times one of my players has confidently read out the first sentence or paragraph of a spell, only to get confused when I tell them to keep going, and surprised/disappointed/upset when it turns out the spell doesn't work the way they wanted it to or has a drawback.

[@sherbert1321]

I’ve been playing for 3 years now and I still feel like a new player. I’m constantly bugging my DM for clarification on how he interprets certain rules. I really don’t think it’s all that big of a deal when the CR cast gets a rule wrong, because there are so many rules that can easily be misinterpreted or forgotten.

[@weeklyfont]

Friendo, I've been playing for 25 years as the forever DM and don't know all the rules. Fortunately, I play with good friends and it's not being streamed to 250K people itching to post so we all back each other up with our knowledge and accept rulings over rules. Never slow your game down to make sure you "got it right," you're the DM. Make a ruling and move on and be willing to own it/retcon if you botched it completely.

[@Abyrae]

Our DM allowed us to kill a guy with a non-damage spell (Create Water), because he found our 30 minutes party debate about "how to make it work" and "are lungs considered a container or not" hilarious. 😂 I could never play at a table where rules can never be broken. Some people can find that fun, but that's not for me. Each DM and D&D group can decide how to play the game. This is why I always roll my eyes at the "fans" that complain about how the CR crew decide to play the game at their own table.

[@_bats_]

A more important conversation that I really feel like nobody is having that I'd love to see you cover is the impact of D&D Beyond on their game. I'm totally caught up on CR but have also been re-watching C1 with a friend new to the show. Yeah, for sure, C1 is more loosey-goosey with the rules, there's more of the Pathfinder interference, more explicit homebrew rules meant to maximize fun, etc. But, I really think the examples of players not knowing their spells (for example) stick out in C1 more than recent campaigns is because they have spells or features or whatever written down on their character sheets that they invoke, but then don't know exactly what they do so misinterpret and then misuse them (or, at least, use them and are disappointed or underwhelmed with the results). C3 has an entirely different problem - they're all using D&D Beyond, so they tend not to misinterpret or misuse things as much as they used to since they have the full text available right at their fingertips. What does happen way, WAY more than it used to is that the players at the table have no idea what things their characters actually have or what they are able to do, because these things are buried in menus and their character sheets are populated at least quasi-automatically during level-ups. I've seen this effect come into play at my own table - one guy playing a Paladin wasn't even aware that he had Divine Smite for like a year of the campaign because it's buried in some class features menu that was auto-filled when he selected his class and isn't an action or bonus action, so he never knew he could even do it. That simply isn't possible if you're filling in a paper or digital character sheet yourself from the actual rules. D&D Beyond can be a great tool to streamline your character sheet for players who are already very familiar with the rules, but I have only ever seen it be detrimental to the fluency with the game rules and one's own character abilities when it comes to players who aren't nerds like us who invest a lot of time thinking about, discussing, and fiddling around with game mechanics. The CR cast has actually gotten very clearly worse at D&D (from a mechanics perspective) the more reliant they've become on D&D Beyond.

[@bosyber]

For us, in trying out daggerheart I found those cards really helped some players to see and understand what tools and traits their characters had, which made me think about providing them more real world ways to have things on hand for other games too. (we're physically separated hence online play and tending to online resources)

[@_bats_]

@@bosyber yeah that's one of my favorite features of the system for that exact reason. When a bunch of the stuff you can do is physical cards in your hand you're much more likely to remember to use it and know exactly how it works when you do.

[@sofiajohansson1438]

Thank you for this video! The audience needs to remember that despite being a big famous DnD streaming group, these people are still HUMAN. It's human to make mistakes, to remember wrong, to get stressed and mix things up. Situations in game can be stressful, especially in combat and people can get things wrong, especially since they know that they are on camera, streaming and maybe don't "take the time" to double check things. The audience doesn't know if a cast member struggle with remembering spells etc or focusing and commenting about these situations isn't going to help that. I've played DnD on and off for four years and I always have to double check spells while playing, especially during a combat. We don't watch Critical Role to watch people "play DnD perfectly". We watch (or at least I do) because they tell amazing stories. Their narrative is their strong side, and that's okay. It's a game, the people playing are supposed to have fun, and that's the most important part, at the end of the day.

[@gibbousmoon35]

You mentioned The Adventure Zone, which reminded me of how Clint's persistent odd-ball and mostly ineffective use of a particular spell led to one of the best roleplay moments I've ever heard.

[@abelphilips1267]

For 29:04 I don't 100% agree with the commentor, but I can maybe see where they're coming from. I think a lot of people, myself included, want rules clearly defined and followed because we've had bad experiences with DMs who take the "rule of cool" concept way too liberally. For example, I played in a campaign where the DM loved two characters in particular and would always give them explicit favoritism. This got to the point where he would just give them advantage on regular attacks and almost any skill check because "rule of cool". Other players and I got so tired of it we started to ask why the players got advantage every single time. He also just wouldn't follow rules for how other things like sneak attack or spells worked because he wanted to railroad us or make combat a pain in the butt. I think if you ever play in a game like that, you'll suddenly want the DM to make decisions closely following RAW or at least their own pre-established homebrew rules. I think rule of cool has its place to make a fun story, but a DM needs to err on the side of caution and just learn to say no sometimes. I do however think people overreact to things CR does as they're running a show not a home game, so Matt is bound to do what will make for a cool show where a home DM may want to keep rule boundaries more clear.

[@Harlizarrd]

I think you have a good point about how Matt's taught the players to play vs how he actually runs the game. It honestly seems so hard for the players to know what is or isn't possible, even for their own characters. Especially since some players WANT to bend the rules in cool ways, while others have been burnt by that and lean more RAW. It feel like Liam rubs against this a lot, which is why all his characters (C2 onwards) are built to explicitly do what he wants within the rules, often as a direct response to rulings/ways of running the game that Matt has used in the past. E.g: Keen Mind on Caleb combated being denied info such as time of day/recent events, and Bait and Switch on Orym let him essentially drag hurt people out of enemies range without them taking Attacks of Opportunity, which almost killed a few people in C2.

[@tagabundok1]

I'm reminded of being in line to meet Travis and Laura at MomoCon in 2017 and talking with a fan who loved watching Campaign 1 but never played D&D herself. She just really loved watching the show while she worked on her projects. It showed me that people can love the same thing I love but for different reasons.

[@DJsGalaxC]

Long time listener first time commenter here. But yeah, to be honest I think the fact that they get some of the rules wrong sometimes has actually been really helpful for me as a person who when I first started watching actual plays, I didn't really know a lot of the rules myself. And when some of our favorite actors would screw up, and then a couple episodes later or 20 minutes later, Matt or Brennan go back, and retroactively correct the mistaken Behavior, or even just hand wave It off, but still clarified that going forward in the future it will be different.... those moments really helped solidify learning the rules myself as a watcher. And even knowing that most of these shows are improved, I think that if there ever were a scripted sort of actual play so to speak, it would be helpful to have moments where somebody didn't know the rules " ", and had to have something explained to them, because that is extremely useful for viewers that may or may not know all the rules themselves. There have been over a thousand times at this point where somebody would cast a spell, or describe an effect that they wanted to do, and I didn't know how that worked mechanically because I don't play a lot of these tabletop games myself.... I just enjoy watching the content for the stories. But whenever somebody would describe a very intricate spell and or action, and then 30 seconds later, there also came a description from Matt or a correction from Abria, or a clarification from Brennan, those moments taught me more about how the game worked mechanically, and I liked that some of these people were wrong about what they were doing, so that I could learn with them. And to be perfectly honest, I would make the argument that maybe these actors and voice actors actually do know what a lot of these spells and things do, and maybe on camera they are playing a little bit dumb for the audience so that the audience doesn't get lost whenever they start doing extremely intricate shit. Just take the wind walking moment into consideration with Marisha.. I'm not accusing her of lying to her fans and viewers but, it is an actor's job to make up a story and a scenario and to make it seem believable. And in my little what if scenario here, what if Miss Marisha, actually did know how that spell worked, but as an actor maybe she thought that it was poorly worded, and she wanted to display how poorly worded the spell was, for other people to use in the future that were watching the show, and to Showcase maybe that this spell is kind of absolute garbage unless you want to travel really fast between towns. Maybe it wasn't her just being bad at reading a spell card, maybe it was her being an extremely good actor and an extremely good teacher and showcasing to us how easy it is to misinterpret a very complicated 7th level spell.... that's just my hot take, I think a lot of these mistakes aren't really mistakes and I think that's okay, because not everybody watching the show has an absolute encyclopedic knowledge of the rules and it's kind of nice watching people fuck up, and get it wrong and get corrected, and kind of learn how to play the game along with them.... and I think it really adds to the Nuance of watching an entire story unfold and learning how to do a new thing at the same time, and I think that's really beautiful ❤😊🎉

[@DJsGalaxC]

Hell.. maybe you can make an episode, just based on that comment there... a defence in an actors/actresses autonomy to "play dumb", to pander to an audience that may or may not know what the hell the performer is trying to pull off...... Surely this must be a topic in the industry worth investigating, wink wink, nudge nudge

[@timidwolf]

The first time I played Vampire: The Masquerade was also the first time for all the PCs in that game (not the DM), none of us knew the rules nor our own abilities beyond the surface description. Our DM commented during the following campaign that he liked this as we didn't spend time working out the most optimal way to use our abilities and approached situations in a realistic fashion, which some apparently started doing after being more familiar with the system, it just made it flow better. Every player in that first campaign agrees to this day it was the best one we played!

[@Feetareleghands]

I still remember one of the earlier Q&As with Geek and Sundry where Matthew Mercer said something like "It's scary to put our game up and have the internet tell you your fun is wrong" That always stuck with me.

[@ForeverDegenerate]

@SupergeekMike First off, thank you for covering this. You said a lot of what's needed to be said for a long time. So kudos for that! Secondly, one thing I'd like to add to what you've said is that there's a difference between what you know outside the game and what you know in the moment. Allow me to explain with an example. In a 5E Campaign I was in, I was playing Ranger and I had just gotten "Pass Without Trace" so, between sessions, I read the spell and planned out how I intended to use the spell, including if I had to tail someone because, you know, Ranger not Rogue. Cut to next session where, you guessed it, I ran into a situation where I decided to tail someone. And guess what I never did? That's right: Cast "Pass Without Trace." And because of that, my tailing mission failed horribly. No real consequences, though, because I was just trying to figure out where I could find this character later so I followed them to see where they might be when I came back. Again, failed that so I just didn't get the info I wanted. Still, immediately after that whole sequence, when I wasn't in the moment and had a moment of clarity, I went, "Ah Dammit! I forgot about Pass Without Trace!" Half the table facepalmed, the other half laughed at me, and the DM just shrugged and went, "Oh well. Next time." All of this is to say that sometimes when players mess up, it's not because they never read the spell or didn't understand the spell, but rather that, in the heat of the moment, they just forgot stuff. Because, you know, we're all Human having one's mind go completely blank in the heat of a moment is the most Human thing that can happen.

[@kongoaurius]

One or my favorite podcasts "Dungeons and daddies" absolutely have no idea what most of the rules are. Beth May who plays a rogue used sneak attack for the first time like 40 episodes into the series

[@roguebarbarian9133]

They do eventually get better at the game. I would argue their biggest issues right now are 1. thinking every spell has a casting time of one action (looking at you ceremony, illusionary terrain, and probably a few others) and 2. randomly handicapping themselves by requiring components when they almost exclusively never play with them.

[@claudiamcfie1265]

Matt's expression during the scry clip is priceless. TBH, Matt's encyclopedic knowledge of the rules is truly epic. I spend a lot of my time looking up rules online during sessions.

[@JoshuaHenson-h5g]

Great insights and analysis as usual! Keep up the good work. If I recall correctly, the first time Sam’s character in campaign 2 cast a spell while invisible, the other players seemed quick to remind him that casting a spell would end invisible. Since I was late to their show and had just binged campaign 1 and the campaign 2 episodes leading up to this, it brought to my mind the moment in campaign 1 where Sam had missed that detail. Sam’s response to everyone’s reaction was simply saying, “I know.” And, his character continued their action.

[@equusheart3344]

I still think the funniest part about the "rolling for scry" blunder was Matt just sitting back and letting them hang themselves. Which, to be fair, they had been messing with Matt A LOT in campaign 3. Especially Sam lol. So I feel Matt was getting his own back with that. Also, I feel all the hate and negativity towards the Critical Role cast is unfair and completely uncalled for. Like, jeeze, lighten up people. Or get over it and go touch grass 🙄

[@SmarkAngel]

We can't, they're dead.

[@jakefisher3328]

Hey. Hey, Mike? Fuck that commenter that gave you shit about having a child. I have an almost three year old and have "lost friends" because I "didn't make them a priority in my life anymore". I can guarantee that commenter, much like my former friends, aren't parents and don't understand how it isn't even close to a choice to make your child you 1st-100th priority. Anyway, I can not say how much I appreciate your free content. It has truly made me a better player and probably a better human. Keep doing your thing. ❤

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you! ☺️

[@futurecaredesign]

I have come to think of it like this: if this crew knew the rules by heart, the threshold for entry of new players into the hobby would be much higher. Now you can feel like a noob right along side them.

[@ffreed]

Yeah, I have been in D&D and Star Trek Adventures groups in which everybody (except me) knew all the deep-dive granularity of the rules. All of the table talk becomes about that and stays there. Speaking from that experience, it’s not even a little bit fun for a casual person to listen to, and it’s not even educational.

[@silversugar2140]

​@@ffreedEyyy, sorry to interject, but I am delighted to find someone else into Star Trek Adventures! My group is in the middle of our second season and I am loving it. We're incredibly flexible with how we run it and I am so grateful to that as someone who struggles with retaining that kind of information especially while performing--I would much rather have my head in my character's space than be bogged down with knowing every minute detail. But yeah, I don't see peeps talk about STA nearly as much as I would like especially given the space. I am so happy I stumbled across ya'! I wish YT made chatting with peeps easier I'd love to talk shoo without bogging down this thread haha. 🖖

[@ffreed]

@@silversugar2140 Nice! I was until recently in two different STA groups through StartPlaying. I enjoyed them both; I played a female Orion operations/security officer in one, and a Pakled Engineering ensign in another. Work scheduling forced me to step away from them both, but they were great to be in. One group, though, was full of the aforementioned guys who were really into the technical detail of all the rules and military procedure while I was just doing Rule of Cool with my sleeves-rolled-up Orion asskicker. The other group was a Lower Decks campaign and was much lighter with the rules, so that was a better overall fit. The times I’ve run Star Trek as a GM have been with Lasers & Feelings.

[@silversugar2140]

@ffreed Okay you had me immediately with Orion~! My current character is a Vulcan/Orion holodeck programmer with more than a dash of Ed (Cowboy Bebop.) I really love the idea of an Orion security officer tho. StartPlaying was new to me and I had to be creative about searching for it but I super dig that so thank you for introducing that to me, like, cheers! At first I wouldn't have thought players of STA would play like a war-game given how science/exploration/character focused the source material is and my own perspective is towards the social aspects but then I thought about it for 2.5 seconds longer and I realized how stupid I was. Hahah! Of any game STA would absolutely have a sharp divide in play styles! I can easily picture some of it being filled with the sort of toxic behavior as described in the video too--given some of the fandom's reputation (which I really feel is a vocal minority and bad media representation, fortunately.) Still, I'm sorry you were in a mismatched group and hope it wasn't too bad. Well obviously not if you gave it another go! Still. I think it is soooo important for peeps to remember to not be beholden to one group of style of game. There are endless ways to run TTRPGs after-all. And more to bring it back to this thread topic at large, that's one thing I truly hope new players take advantage of and something I as an experienced RPer need to remember myself; it's really awesome to play at other tables and experience a wider variety of play and peoples as we are always going to learn something new from those experiences. (Ah man, though I wanna play a Lower Decks game so bad but we're waiting for a milestone before then. TwT)

[@ashtinpeaks9972]

If you are already basing DND on critical role you have failed. Thsts a HUGE RED FLAG. A normal dnd table is not critical role and treating it as such is a yikes. Play ya games how you like, but CR is not the standard for regular games.

[@piperbird7193]

I play a druid and I love it. But it is SO easy to misread or misunderstand a spell, especially when you're trying to read the spell and pay attention to what's happening at the table. No matter how long you've been playing, you're going to goof something up sometimes. I never really felt it was that big a deal when CR got a spell wrong. And honestly, I have no way of knowing if they've decided the way a spell is used is a house rule or not anyway, so if Matt is good with it, I'm good with it.

[@MonstrousRegiment]

Yeah, especially when you realize what you want to cast is concentration too, so your last spell has to end. A huge "GAH!!!" when you end up dropping Protection from Good and Evil at a crucial moment....

[@ColonelMustache]

I guess for me it depends on what effect the misunderstanding has on the scene. The wind walk moment, for example…that whole fight sucks. Everyone is stressed out, it’s uncomfortable to watch, it’s just a rough scene overall. No hate on Marisha at all (she’s gotten more than enough of that), we all make mistakes, that one just happened to have unfortunate consequences. The “you don’t roll for scry”, on the other hand, is just good comedy. There’s no harm that comes from the mistake aside from the players looking foolish, everyone is laughing and having a good time. Who could be mad at that? Totally different vibes, even if both moments could be summed up as “you didn’t read your spells.” I would say it’s a fair criticism to tell players to read more than just the name of their spell, though (which wasn’t the problem in those two scenes). There are absolutely bullshit spells whose names are very deceptive, and that should be fixed. But that’s all the more reason to read the description rather than just taking the spell based on the name.

[@ToaArcan]

"Sometimes a spell's name can be misleading." Hey everybody, remember Chill Touch? The spell that does not do cold damage and isn't a touch spell?

[@dancovich]

15:26 This is really tricky. Yeah, most of the time a spellcaster would know how their spell works, but anyone can make mistakes. I imagine casting a spell while invisible would be a really common mistake if D&D was real, because depending on how much time has passed since you became invisible, you might just forget you were invisible. Weird analogy, but I remember in the Nickelodeon show Avatar: The Last Airbender, people forgot all the time one of their team members were blind and often asked her to do tasks that required sight. The blind character made that mistake herself, when everyone else didn't assign her the job of gluing posters to a wall and she angrily complained that they didn't trust her to do that job and then glued the poster facing the wall! The point is, spells that put you in a state might be really easy to "forget" you are on that state and not consider the interaction between that state and other spells. I imagine it's an easy mistake to make, so a good way of emulating that would be holding the player accountable for making the mistake, because it is possible their characters would make the same mistake.

[@andreacallegari7137]

It does slow down play and make the overall product less enjoyable, and in other DND actual play series, the footage would be edited and cut while they search for the effects of the spell. Nowadays, it doesn't bother me too much. However, if the footage was a little bit more polished, I would not complain- but that's just me being spoiled by years of Dimension 20 and Naddpod

[@roibenr]

It does blow my mind how little editing they do considering how big they are but I'm sure others prefer a less edited style.

[@pedrogarcia8706]

@@roibenr editing how? It's live.

[@EvilLobsterKing]

​@@pedrogarcia8706campaign 3 has all been prerecorded

[@Scorn_XIII]

@@pedrogarcia8706 I dont mean to be contrarian, but CR has not been live since Pre-pandemic, ever since episodes have been recorded early and then played later, the episodes are just played through a livestream, probably because thats just what the fanbase is use to. So yea if they wanted they could be edited to keep the vid down a bit, but I think they wanted to preserve that feeling of when they did live.

[@piggylady225]

I definitely prefer the lack/minimization of editing. I’m one of those people who likes to look at every little detail. If there’s a cut, even if it’s unlikely to be something important, I still feel like I’m missing out on something. And, as a casual D&D player, the mistakes they make are nothing compared to my table’s misunderstandings (which I have no problems with). Plus, I watch while working on crochet projects, completing one of which can take 1 or 2 entire episodes. Time is also not a problem for me. To each their own!

[@theeutecticpoint]

hotdog from a hardware store, that's a good one! Also gratz on the new progeny, I hope everyone is doing well now!

[@GAdmThrawn]

6:25 I think I recall that the time between sessions tended to be more than a month. Sometimes it was a few months or more that they all would finally have time to get together to play at home. And those sessions would last for a _LOT_ longer than they do here. So, I'm sure that they spent a lot of time re-familiarizing themselves with their characters and spells before session. That obviously changed when they did sessions weekly. 8:35 I find that the names of the spells are usually what grabs their attention and, depending on the player, they will either look up the details of the spell immediately or forget to do it until the show is airing. And I can only assume that the time to do so is right before the show is ready to air or afterwards as they all have relatively busy lives (which you bring up later). My opinion on the matter is this: Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake? Anyone can make an error. But that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. Has the cast of CR refused to correct their errors over time? Perhaps, perhaps not. I am a relatively newcomer to DnD and a new DM, and I haven't memorized all the spells or their effects. If there is a spell I am unfamiliar with, then I pause the game to look up the spell to check to see if it's being used correctly or if they got the details right. Even though my players are more experienced than me, watching Matt and Co. play has taught me to check up on stuff. It's especially prevalent when almost half of my players are playing homebrew characters, and sometimes homebrew spells.

[@necromandy]

16:45 it’s funny how you talk about the punishment for a bad call on spell use, because I’ve messed up before in my understanding of a spell in context and my poor gentle GM doesn’t understand why I’m over here like ‘nope let me heck it up and waste my turn and spell slot this is my bad’ and he finally had to be like STOP MAKING ME PUNISH YOU I DONT LIKE IT - and I realized inadvertently it’s just what I expected to happen because of how much CR I’ve watched over the years 😂

[@Shane-hx4xp]

In a Pathfinder game I was running I didn’t bother checking spells and the cleric player loved casting the spell nap stack which pretty much allowed the characters to sleep for 2 hours and regain their abilities instead of the8 hours normally needed. It was probably over a year of using this spell before the player one day realized it was only allowed to be cast once a week or once a month I don’t fully remember. We still joke about it years later.

[@JeffreyMcLain]

I can't remember if I ended up sending the comment last video, but I was going to suggest a pop filter for the Yeti, and I'm glad you invested! I'm an audiobook narrator and did my first two books on a Yeti and the filter did WONDERS for me. I also didn't want to sound like a dick making that comment suggestion. Idk, brain is leaky on this Monday, apologies! Anyway - loved your sponsor transition. Well done =) Also - really cool that you have sponsor stuff! Love that as you're getting more into content creation to pay the bills you're finding deserved success. Thanks for your work bud, I always enjoy seeing your videos pop up on my feed!

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you! I’m glad the filter helped. I had already bought one by the time the last video aired, because that sound issue bothered me, too lol

[@JeffreyMcLain]

@@SupergeekMike The thing I'm learning about audio is that it's an iterative process! I was going mad crazy doing fade in's on every plosive during my editing process before I got my filter on there. Lordy, it can get nuts. Good on you for keeping up with your tweaks and iterations =) Cheers man! Hope the kiddo is doing AWESOME!

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you@@JeffreyMcLain !

[@omok2]

I'm a firm believer the people that complain the most about CR rules are people who don't play often. Whenever I talk to people who actually play a lot they talk about bending rules all the time to allow for some things.

[@JadeReloaded]

Also, people actually playing still argue about rules with the PHB in their hand! All the times the story screeches to a halt because players need to re-read the rules and then pick a fight over their interpretation is one of the reasons I quit playing.

[@omok2]

@JadeReloaded sounds more like it was the players you played with rather than the game. As a DM you have to have a level of asshole in ya to tell your players how it is.

[@lucascobrea5445]

As a new dm who doesn’t know every spell even vaguely I have my players read the description to me when they try to use the feature. That way I know how it works as well as it forces them to read the fine print

[@roon-sy8fz]

Critical Role is like Big Bang Theory, its a show ABOUT people playing D&D its not a show OF people playing D&D.

[@SupergeekMike]

It is very much not like that, actually, because it’s literally just people playing D&D for 4 hours a week.

[@pippastrelle]

Excellent video btw. One of those easy, interesting listens where I double-take at the timestamp at the end. Doesn't feel like 40 minutes at all.

[@karlizkool350yt]

I absolutely agree with 99% of this video, one minor gripe I have when you're addressing an actual play show not needing to have all the rules memorized (roughly 35:50) I agree. However, there's a certain point where the players have done the same thing over and over and keep getting it wrong. Vax's sneak attack is the biggest offender in my opinion, however I'm sure there's a few other instances where this happens.

[@SupergeekMike]

That one frustrates me, too, but clearly something just got lodged in Liam’s head backwards when he converted over to the 5e rogue and learned the new mechanics. Considering the complexity he was able to handle in C2, it’s clear he CAN handle the 5e system. So I honestly think the sneak attack issue is one of those where joining at level 8 just screwed it up in his head, and he just couldn’t remember the correct version no matter how many times it came up. And considering it’s just a memory issue, I have a really hard time finding a reasonable lesson we can learn from that, you know? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@karlizkool350yt]

@@SupergeekMike Completely valid! I do remember very early in C1 when they were fighting Duregar (spelling?) that there was a whole fight where he was getting his assassin advantage crit damage, so maybe that was it? I also know that I've screwed up rulings in my home Starfinder campaign that were just me remembering something from a different system lol. Either way, thank you for the reply.

[@somenerdpng]

I basically never comment, but that sponsor transition was smooth, I did not expect that 😂

[@manuelanaya3712]

Amazing video as always! Thank you for all you do and im glad to hear about your new baby, congrats!

[@Crispyconcerto]

My first exposure to dnd was an early edition rulebook my brother found in my dads stuff from the 80s. It seemed horrifyingly complex, and it held me back from looking into dnd later on. Critical role (and friends) got me into it when i realized it was not as needlessly mathy as i expected.

[@portagenial]

Why they don't read their rules? Easy, they're too busy reading their scripts /j

[@juniperjenny287]

I'm put in mind of BLeeM's recent comments on the WBN patreon about his purpose for the rules...that for him having rules for combat has value, but rules for social encounters are less important because he himself feels confident making those rulings and figuring out consequences in that realm. Matt Mercer creates gorgeous complex combat set pieces, with lots of moving pieces and cleverly homebrewed monsters and npcs. Maybe he's more comfortable adjudicating consequences in those combat situations and therefore places less weight on the "rules" as such.

[@searchforsecretdoors]

I love your take. Personally, I watch a lot of DND KZbin, so I know how my spells work really well... until I am playing. In the game, my mind is focused on so many things, I often make some simple mistake. And I don't even have to worry about what am audience might be thinking.

[@Swan-yo6hn]

Given the comment you responded to, I feel the need to congratulate you again. I am so happy for you being a dad now! You sounds super excited every time you mention it and it is lovely to see :) Thank you for all the content you put out on youtube. I watch almost all of it and enjoy it immensely!

[@sjferguson]

This was absolutely amazing! Thank you for taking the time to put this together and offer important dialogue. Also, congratulations on your new baby!

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you so much!

[@Pumpky_the_kobold]

I swear the Segway to the sponsor are getting easier and easier to see coming, and yet, they're getting smoother and smoother

[@williamkinser7063]

I dont really know why people bash them on the rules when their whole style is Narrative and Story over 100% strict rule following. That a totally valid play style that suits thier entertainment platform.

[@ottertvmtg6229]

"Also, just because someone can't remember something doesn't mean they're not making an effort to learn it. It just means they can't remember it, and that's not the same thing, especially if you don't learn things by reading them, which is true for a lot of people. So, like, if you're planning to argue that if somebody gets something wrong, that means that they're not trying, then that's really reductive in a way I think is harmful, if not actively ableist, so I strongly suggest you reconsider that argument." holy shit i feel so seen and validated

[@hakkesho12]

The sentiment of “it’s okay to get things wrong” is probably one of the best lessons to remember for new *and* veteran players.

[@yipyippo]

That guy who said “you might as well do improv” is insane holy. I almost choked on my coffee LOL i almost exclusively do improv as a DM pls Edit: i just got to the part where he mentioned the baby and actually f that guy.

[@tobiaslundqvist3209]

That man was categorically an a** but still the improv thing has a point. I mean the hobby has been enriched by alot of dedicated improv aficionados the last decade but for the rather large group of people who enjoy the game part of dnd things can get frustrating when trying to engage with the fandom. There's this idea that's been made popular by dnd influencers that there is this gulf between players that is really exaggerated. Rules vs fun is not a fact or really a reasonable representation of how these games usually play out. I whole heartedly support people throwing out the book and making a womderful improv adventure, that's cool, but it is reasonable to question where it stops being a game i feel. Again, that guy with the baby comment, not cool.

[@danielmartinontiverosvizca7325]

5e players are widely known for not reading the books, whoever they are

[@lukesandadordoceu4835]

I love that oast clip from liam, just the simplest explanation of how things work. Also, the moment you mentioned about using actions for bonus actions is from late c2, Ashley wanted to rage as well as use the zealot barb's zealous presence , but Taliesin said she could use her action for one of them. Matt then Corrected him and said "That's from Pathfinder"

[@purplepurple1405]

13:00 YOOO Rainbowdragon here, first of all not expecting the weird shout out in a supergeekmike video but happy to contribute in a positive way, Had a slight out of body experience hearing that. The read your spells critique has drove me nuts for yrs especially towards marisha, its so stupid if you think about it for a second. As far as the general video goes i basically have no disagreements with it. People get stuff wrong if that bothers you, fine, you can choose to play with people who agree with you on that. If you wanna go play a wargame fine go play a wargame Akira Toriyama the creator of dragonball forgot super Saiyan 2 existed even though the first time a character going super saiyan 2 is arguably the biggest emotional moment of the entire series. Heck Ashley Johnson on narrative telephone shows how terrible a memory she has and how bad she is at reciting things, does that mean she has no business being an actress because of that, no. Sometimes people just forget things or have trouble remembering things and i say that as someone with a bad memory myself. The idea that, that doesnt mean they are passionate about said thing is ridiculous. If you'd rather play a D&d game were you cant teleport into the dragon thats 100% fine but i prefer this version of the game and clearly so do the cast of CR. the moment you start demanding people you dont even know start playing A GAME the way you do, "the right way" you become a gatekeeping asshole imo. The lines about the difference of being in a conversation / watching a movie and ordering a hotdog from a hardware store were great descriptors for making your points. So glad you made this vid, this argument has frustrated me so much for years now. finally that other commentor was an asshole, hope you, mom and baby are doing well and rules as written daylight is an extremely stupid spell that makes no sense.

[@jackyoh971]

Another reason get thing wrong is a fun accidentally test and innovate in homebrew that can make the game better.

[@RonPower]

What I find more fascinating is that Matt is able to catch them on these relatively small things most of the time. I would call myself a very competent DM, but because of the different systems and editions I have run, I often get them confused and mix-up things. I rely on my players knowing their spells perhaps better than I do.

[@Hubabuba258]

I so agree with the last segment of the video! Sometimes learning stuff is hard for people and for the DM and the other players to be weenies about it and bully them or complain or be impatient or whatever... does it improve anyone's experience? No. It can get especially difficult for some neurodivergent players who simply struggle under the pressure of playing in real time. I have a rogue player whom we have to each time remind that Dexterity is the ability they use for attack or stealth and it doesn't bother me at all, because their roleplay is fantastic and they interact with the world at the table in such a creative way that she keeps us amazed at every game. Rules are there to give us a framework to work with. At the end we are all here to tell an amazing story, not to execute a flawless sequence of commands and calculations

[@Dhyfis]

Not a 5e DM, but I have GMed a few systems. At my table, we do value the rules quite a bit because that is the framework that the characters have for understanding their world. Even then, houserules happen. Sometimes purposefully because we tinker or accidentally because we misread something and decided we liked it better instead of going back to the correct way. No two tables of any game are ever the same and that is the whole point. As for when I'm watching Critical Role or any other lets play, I couldn't care about the specific rules. I care about the characters and the kind of story that can really evolve when every character truly has their own unique will and when the arbiter of your fate sometimes comes down to a roll. And if their specific rules are different than mine, so be it.

[@gabrielstarlight9003]

The biggest bummer for me is when Matt shuts down other players with a non-RAW ruling. Off the top of my head in C2 Sam casts phantasmal force in Darktow and Matt shut it down hard claiming that the target would immediately realise it was an illusion and ignore it. Sam actually read his spell and cautiously stood up for himself citing the effect of the spell that the target will rationalize illogical outcomes. Only then did Matt pause to actually read the spell himself. Even after that Matt shuts down Sams phantasmal force again in the fight against Lucien, caliming that after Lucien tries to attack the phantasm "The jig is up". The spell specifically states that the target must use their action to make an investigation check or else they will continue to believe the phantasm and rationalize whatever happens, but Matt chose to throw away Sam's contribution against RAW for no reason. This is just one example off the top of my head. Any time a player uses a cantrip Matt makes a point to make it completely pointless. This bums me out because it shuts down creativity and his rulings aren't even RAW. Also he forgets how evasion works when it will damage Beau but remembers, and helps Sam remember, when it will help Veth. I feel like this is worth calling out because Matt is a high profile DM who has a reputation basically as being perfect and these things are shutting down or punishing players even when they're following the rules and communicating well. A player in that situation can't win if a DM is going to rule in that moment against you for no reason.

[@bimse1234]

Thanks!

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you so much!!

[@TSTARDOOLEY]

As both a player and DM, I pride myself on knowing the 5e rules quite well. But it happens often during games that I get flustered and just completely forget how something works or get it wrong. When I’m watching CR I almost immediately notice when they get rules or even lore wrong. Being in the moment is just such a different experience from spectating. All actual plays deserve at least some grace. And as you said, rules are not the focus of CR, just the framework.

[@acehasgreed]

People who rag on Critical Role for forgetting the rules are annoying to me cause you can’t look me in the eyes and say you haven’t forgotten a single rule in the entire time you’ve played DnD, hell I forgot the rule for Witch Bolt that the extra damage isn’t increased only the initial cast! And witch bolt was one of my SorcLock’s main spells!

[@zippomage]

I have been deep in to 5e since they started doing 5e and I don't even know all of the rules, let alone remember all the ones I've learned.

[@KonnyKhaos]

I also forget a lot, and I’m a DM for a pretty big group (7 players). That said, even my novice players don’t attempt to cast something in tense situations and just pretend like the spell will do what they want it to do. They ask, or look it up in real time. Im on episode 48 of season one, and Marisha literally does this once every four or five episodes. Its insane. Its cheating after a certain fashion. You’re just hoping your DM doesn’t know your spell and hoping they wont call you on it. At the very least, refresh your memory when it’s someone else’s turn so that when it comes time to cast “misty step” you actually know how it functions. Its a respect thing for the players around you.

[@MrSeals1000]

​@@KonnyKhaosI think there's a disparity there when it comes to player intention. You have a certain expected standard for what you consider to be good table etiquette for player, and that's good, a perfect thing to explain to your players during session 0 to let them know your expectations. But it's not good to assume that all people have that same standard or method, and that anyone not adhering to them is acting in bad faith, or trying to get away with something. That's a big assumption, and not one that can just be directly applied between different groups. Each table has their own agreed expectations, etiquette, what they are okay with, and they know better than anyone the intentions of their fellow players at their table.

[@KonnyKhaos]

@@MrSeals1000 I don’t assume my players are acting in bad faith. They simply are. It’s an effect rather than an intention. We’re talking about two different things, you assume I think their intentions are bad. In reality I’ve explained what exactly has happened. You can do something bad with good intentions. It’s still bad.

[@MrSeals1000]

​@@KonnyKhaosI think you're the one misunderstanding. I'm not talking about your players, I'm talking about critical role. You can't judge their tables accepted social contract with each other based on your own. At your table, I fully agree, if a player continued to do that then it would be "cheating after a certain fashion". If you've explained your expectations to all the people at your table, then someone repeatedly doing that over and over would indeed be in the wrong, intentions be damned. But that doesn't apply when talking about someone elses table. Intentions matter, because their social contract is different. It's pretty clear that it isn't something that bothers them, they have different expectations of what is bad and good. So if a players intention in critical role isn't to cheat by doing it, then there is nothing wrong and it is perfectly good. I understand if you were just meaning to point out something in critical role that would never fly at your table. But your statement directly tied the actions of one of critical roles players to what sounded like you said would be 'objectively cheating'. When it's the something that just depends on the table, the people, and a persons intentions.

[@Littlewh0]

I reasonably often will literally tell my players, "In a non-precident setting way, I'll allow this" when I can't remember the rule precisely and don't want to break the moment doing research

[@kelpiekit4002]

Professionals not knowing all the rules! Inconceivable! Imagine if professional sporting events needed some referee figure to make sure rules were followed, or if lawyers needed some fantasy creation like a paralegal to look up details about laws, or if people didn't thoroughly read through every terms and conditions statement they clicked accept on.

[@dolphin64575]

I've only ever run 2 pick-up one-shots for players I'd never met before, and I thought I was familiar enough with 5e from watching CR1, Mike, and a couple other D&D channels. Almost immediately after starting the 2nd one-shot, a character casts a spell I've never heard of before. "Great, how does that work?" And we read the spell together. (I remember in ONE ep where Marisha(?) and Matt had a "race" to find a spell first, but it doesn't happen often.)

[@magnumx635]

The "read your spell to me" is something I do a lot at my table. I have a couple dyslexic players so misreads are common and I find even if I am going to rule against a spell use it is more fair that everyone at the table hears about it together so when I give my ruling they can voice if they think it's a fair reading. I think Matt being so strict with spells was a real mistake, it can be funny, I think it made for some memorable moments but probably not for reasons worth preserving. I will confess that in the first campaign I remember getting a bit irritated with Marisha's spell use though. My problem wasn't so much that she didn't read them but usually more about what happened after. It was a mistake for Matt to let her waste high level spells slots to make mistakes like he did but I found the amount of push-back or general irritability from her afterwards to be what rubbed me wrong. I've had a player like that and while I tried to give him a bit more warning ahead of time on stuff so he wouldn't waste resources it was the lingering complaints and comments that get on my nerves. I think one of the reasons it stuck out more with her than for other players is after Liam misunderstood sneak attack for the 14th time and matt corrected him that would be the end but Marisha would usually fight longer or make a few irritated comments and bring the mood down more. At least that was my memory of it. That said I kind of loved narratively how Kyleth was either insanely useful or occasionally harmful with her spells. Her making Vax drop his daggers or the cloud thing were great character moments and I wish the animated show included them honestly. I feel like animated Kyleth is either unconfident or overpowered alternatingly and having a few moments of her godlike power misfire or be used in a well intentioned but ultimately negative way would fit in naturally with the humor and really sell why she struggles with trusting herself.

[@gameraven13]

I remember getting into D&D and shortly after finding them, they were about a year into campaign 1, and since I had no actual table to play at, bingeing to the point where I could watch episode 50 of campaign 1 live was my D&D fix. This continued throughout campaign 1 and I was lucky to, by the end of it, have proper tables, but it was nice being able to see them play. I fell off with them just because I'm a forever DM weekly now, so I don't need them for my fix anymore. I am definitely glad I got somewhat introduced to the hobby through them though because one major lesson to pick up from them is how to just "oh well" and move on when you make a rules mistake. As you've pointed out in the CR Demystified series, there are a few times where Matt's retroactive rule fixing was a bit harsh and unwarranted, but for the most part I'd say he does pretty well. It has definitely also taught me the art of making sure I clarify all implications and restrictions of a spell or ability before continuing.

[@delarkaBCN]

gotta love SUPERGEEK DAD

[@NIKSEEN]

Perfect timing! I’m about to walk my dog and needed something to listen to

[@catherineelmore2004]

As someone who’s new to the game and is still learning- just made level two in my first campaign!- and who got into the hobby through watching actual plays (starting out with Dimension 20 and going from there) I really appreciate this video. Like… I admire the heck out of players who clearly know their spells and everything- but there’s so much to know and people are people so… honestly the getting some things wrong on occasion and needing to be like oh wait, can’t do that let’s try this instead is legitimately a cool thing to see, especially by people who play a lot. For instance- I love watching Emily Axford blow Brennan Lee Mulligan away with remembering rules for her spells that he didn’t remember *when he’s been playing and DMing for twenty years at this point!* But I also love watching early seasons where Ally Beardsley was a complete newbie and everyone at the table, especially Murph, was taking the time to help them learn- being like oh the info you want is here or maybe try this instead of that. And watching their growth with the game is also *really cool*! Also… like you said… people have different focuses at their tables- different things they enjoy, and that’s fine and good. And Critical Role (and D20 and others) are played by people who clearly enjoy the narrative first and foremost- which is also a good thing because they’re also making a tv show. Fewer people would want to watch if they were playing a number crunching dungeon crawler- there’s nothing wrong with that type of game if you want to run it and that’s what you enjoy, but it would be more of a niche audience that would want to watch it as opposed to something more narrative heavy. Which are two reasons I don’t get people lobbing heavy criticism at casts of either show for the way they run their game- no one is making you watch and no one is making you run your game the way they do, so let them have their fun! Critiquing media is fair and valid; explaining to newbies that ok, this is homebrew rather than rules as written, talk with your DM before trying this in your home game to see if they’ll allow it is fair and valid! What isn’t fair and valid: throwing needlessly contrarian insults at people for doing something like playing a game in a way that you don’t like, especially when they’re complete strangers just trying to entertain themselves and others.

[@christianquenan1358]

In France, the two most popular actual plays use d100 house made system, even if the most popular system in France is D&D. They are this popular because of the cast and the stories it tells, not because of the system (or at least, despite not using the most successful system)

[@abucket14]

I have read through every spell in the PHB, but that doesn't mean that I remember each effect. Yes this is there job, but it's only one of there jobs. They don't spend 5 days a week playing and preparing D&D. It's basically a combination of secondary job and hobby for them.

[@RexZor76]

Laura Bailey was Mary Jane in the latest Spider-Man game. While working on C3. While working on Vox Machina and Mighty Nein. And also being a full time mom. With whatever other things she has in her life. I’m surprised they know as much as they do lol.

[@simonmoody8400]

I never move past 3.5e, until, after watching some early Critical Role, and enjoying it, I decided to become familiar with 5e simply to understand what was going on better. And, while I admit I wouldn't have stumbled over CR if it wasn't D&D, the thing that keeps me with CR (albeit with 2 significant gaps in my watching it), is the friendship between the cast. That, as a viewer, I feel invited to experience this circle of friends having fun. Not actors in a sitcom/characters, but people being themselves (some of the time). And while I think that if/when they move away from D&D, that is going to really test things for many viewers (me included), (And that C3 has been, imho, significantly weaker). As long as that feeling remains, they are good. On the flipside, should they ever lose it, I think they would be in real trouble, even losing one of the regular cast would impact the dynamic hugely.

[@DistortedAudio2001]

Wow that guy who wrote that comment at the beginning is probably real fun at parties

[@amethystimagination3332]

Yeah and also doesn’t understand how money works. The show is worth a lot of money but the individual cast members aren’t millionaires because that would be terrible budgeting.

[@teathomass]

The fucking REVEAL of the first part of that comment absolutely got me. Incredible😂

[@Chrosteellium]

I love knowing the rules. I like having "this is how it works X and it works that way because Y" because I like structure. This comes in handy when everyone in my group except for the DM has never played before (me included, I've just consumed a LOT of dnd content). However, me liking the rules doesn't prevent me from asking my DM if this certain way a spell or whatever can be interpreted. And I might raise my eyebrow when my DM lets us roll again because we roll double 3's with advantage. But I'm not going to go "ummm actually, you can't do that 🤓" Because he thinks it's BS when we roll the same number twice when we have advantage. "Oh I can use the help action or Guidance after the roll of a skill check? Okay DM, you're the boss" Let people be.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Actually, let me try and shed light on what people who look to the rules to create drama, since that's something I'm kind of looking for in systems when picking games to run, and it's something similar I've heard from people who run vastly different sorts of systems to what I run in what they're looking for when picking games to run. Though I've never really thought of it this way. I tend towards more narrativist games - PbtA is the most common family of games in that category, but others exist. PbtA since you've got some familiarity with it - You've talked about Masks and Monster of the Week a little bit on the channel before - works best when the moves care about specific things, and have specific consequences prewritten - usually as pick lists rather than leaving things open ended. And those things are tailor made for the genre - often the nanogenre - the game is designed around. They're games where if the players and GM follows the rules, Genre will emerge via improv play with relatively low amounts of prep compared to what 'trad' systems usually require - There's still prep required (at least when you're not running a game like Escape from Dinosaur Island which is designed for one shots and kind of does the prep for you), but it's a different sort of prep and tends to be looser. But what I'm specifically looking for games where the act of playing the game will drive the game towards specific story beats, so the sort of narrative moments crucial for whatever the genre to sing will naturally occur rather than needing to be scripted by myself. Or, I suppose, where if we all follow the rules, drama will emerge. Meanwhile, people I've seen who skew towards simulationist gaming - Stuff like Harnmaster - have basically indicated they're specifically looking for things that will remove the need to be creative from them. Where as long as they follow the rules, the dice will tell them what happens next in the narrative that's being built at the table. Where they don't need to decide if the arrow hits someone in the shoulder or the knee, or what the result of fumbling the spell is, or whatever. Where the system takes care of the outcomes of player actions so that they can spend their creative energies working out the interesting stuff like the motivation of the leader of the NPC faction the players have encountered is (assuming they don't offset that to a series of random tables such as from UNE). Or, I suppose, where drama will come out of the rules. ...D&D doesn't do this. I don't think it's ever done this. Either of these. It's not what D&D's design philosophy pushes towards. And that's not a bad thing.

[@Guy_With_A_Laser]

I think for me a lot of this comes down to how disruptive these rules discussions end up being for the overall gameplay experience for the rest of the table. If a player needs to look up an obscure spell or niche class power that is rarely used, sure, I understand that's a thing that can happen, and if I'm the DM and someone is casting Wind Walk, I'm probably looking up the spell too because I've never seen it used before and want to make sure I understand what's going on. I do find it frustrating when players don't remember or understand core features of their character. I don't think it's an unreasonable amount of effort to expect players to understand what their main abilities are, what dice they'll need to roll, and what limitations there might be on them so the game doesn't grind to a halt every time the rogue's turn comes up because they don't remember how sneak attack works. Yes, some mechanics aren't intuitive, and yes, there's a learning curve, but I think there's an unhealthy tendency in the TTRPG community to just foist all of the problems in the game onto the DM, and not expect the players to take any responsibility for understanding how the game works or how to improve the gameplay experience for the other people at the table.