Does It Matter if the Critical Role Cast Doesn’t Know the Rules of D&D?

This is a common discourse in the Critter community (and in my comments section), so let’s tackle this subject from every angle I can think of.
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CW: Some adult language, an image of a dragon’s butthole
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
01:40 - How Much Are They Actually Getting Paid… And What Are They Actually Getting Paid For?
05:37 - The Pathfinder Transition
08:24 - D&D Spells Have Misleading Names
09:59 - Not Everyone Reads Their Spells
13:20 - Why Matt Doesn’t Enforce Reading Their Spells
15:25 - Matt Punished Players for Not Reading Their Spells (Which Influences the Audience’s Perceptions)
18:22 - Matt Set the Precedent That Spell Rules Can Be Fluid
20:56 - The Cast Members Aren’t the Same Type of Nerds as Their Audience
23:17 - A Word From Our Sponsor
24:35 - 5e Rules Kind of Don’t Matter as Much as Other Systems
28:11 - “The Rules are There to Generate Drama”
33:13 - Nobody Plays Their Game According to Every Rule
35:13 - Actual Play Shows Where Players Aren’t Experts are Good, Actually
37:02 - It Doesn’t Actually Matter
41:38 - Outro
Vibing Over Venus Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Smooth Lovin Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Covert Affairs Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Thief in the Night Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Bass Walker Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Loopster Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Walking Along Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Cool Vibes Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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On the Cool Side Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Lasting Hope Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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#dnd #dungeonsanddragons #ttrpg #rpg #criticalrole
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[@SupergeekMike]

What other aspects of Critical Role Discourse would you like to hear me talk about in the future? Thanks so much to WorldAnvil for sponsoring this video! Visit www.worldanvil.com/supergeekmike and use the promo code SUPERGEEK to get 51% off any annual membership! www.worldanvil.com/supergeekmike Check out Adventure April: www.worldanvil.com/community/challenge/adventure-april-2024/homepage

[@TheBahamaat]

I think the discussion about bias for relationship partners is worth it just to deal with how bonkers talking about the issue can be. It is a definite risk, but then so is any prioritized interpersonal relationship - real or perceived. There is also the issue of overcorrecting for an accusation or perceived bias, making things harder on them or singling their PC out for negatives, in order to appear 'fair'.

[@mattbriddell9246]

The notion that campaign 3 is "scripted" (or at the very least heavily contrived)

[@DxReaper120]

It was campaign 2 Talisen remembered the bonus action thing

[@hadesblackplays]

what was the last episode you watched C3? because im sure you have seen some of the discussion around C3 being bad, the worst or isnt clicking for certain people because how matt has been handling the overall narrative. And as you said yourself, C1 is very plot driven, from one point to the other, while C2 was (or felt) more like a sandbox and C3... well, i cant say because i dont know where are you at. So I would love to know your opinion on the differences or most common ideas for long-tem campaigns, how to handle them, the narrative (and the subtext around it) one as a dm has to deal with it.

[@shadowhell8378]

I did cast daylight in a Curse of Strahd campaign thinking it would be sun light before.

[@drexalnewb1500]

On the topic of misleading spell names, shout out to Chill Touch. It is a ranged spell that does necrotic damage

[@sarahlanger2605]

Used it just this weekend and triple checked that it wasn't a touch spell ^^

[@braydenchadwick9836]

There is a frost fingers spell which I think works exactly how you’d think as well

[@quincykunz3481]

@@braydenchadwick9836 Frost fingers is a play on "burning hands" and is a cone, not a touch spell. Still closer to right than chill touch though.

[@braydenchadwick9836]

Just checked. WHY is it a cone

[@quincykunz3481]

@@braydenchadwick9836 because burning hands is a cone, because flamethrower hands are cool.

[@stJules]

I loved how Mark Hulmes „taught” cast of BG3 in their session. Ask them to read the ability outloud, optionally correct and suggest action that would meet their expected goal. I would say thats a golden standard in teaching complicated stuff like spells to players.

[@aniqueevans1547]

I was going to say the same thing! It's such a great idea, especially since most of the players were new to 5e. It gets them used to the concept of reading their spells fully so they know how they work. Obviously CR never had that luxury, starting at such a high level, and by the time they were starting a new campaign they already had an established way of doing things that it would seem strange to suddenly make that commonplace.

[@mattbriddell9246]

Among their many other fine qualities, Mark is an outstanding DM when it comes to teaching new/newish players about the game while it's going on and keeping the game flowing smoothly.

[@AGrumpyPanda]

@@aniqueevans1547 They didn't start at a high level, season 1 was an extension of their home Pathfinder game. The latter part of that sentence is the important part, up until that point it was mostly an excuse to get together and socialise that they played very irregularly, so they didn't any expectations put on them.

[@lukasfraser1411]

​@@AGrumpyPandathey only played like that because they would only play while Ashley was home, and even then they would play 8-10 hour games.

[@StuffSayoSays]

Mark is such an underrated DM. People really should give High Rollers a chance as Mark is a very skilled and wonderful DM. Always teaching his players new or old, and open to learning and accepting his mistakes. Even to retcon some homebrew rules he implemented just so game flow and balance is much fairer to the players. Love watching their group specifically when Mark crossdresses. 🤭

[@EmperorKnightlock]

"I got a 73, what does that do?" Matt: NOTHING. You dont roll for scry. "8 YEARS. 8 years people" Was a funny moment and one of the best of the episode. If you advertise yourself as a pro player channel people will be upset when you're not that. But they dont. They just have a good story and have fun and funny moments while they play.

[@DarcOne13]

They've not just NOT advertised themselves as pro-players; they've made it very clear that they're friends having fun telling a story that they're letting us watch. Fun first, story second, rules third.

[@ffreed]

⁠@@DarcOne13Yeah, one of the FIRST sentences spoken in the Vox Machina campaign was about how they were going to be “loosy-goosy” (Mercer’s word choice) with the rules for the sake of moving the game forward.

[@kevinwheeler7427]

They mention all the time that they don’t know how to play. Professional DnD players were never promised.

[@EikeSky]

​@@DarcOne13 "a bunch of nerdy ass voice actors gather round and play dungeons and dragons" Rest of the table "WE PLAY DUNGEUDKSH AAHHIIBFBME FHAKAJGOOOOOOOONNSSSS" "Thank you Travis." Clearly professionals taking it seriously. While I have my gripes about the C3 characters, knowing now what they were no doubt working on when this was all started, I'm not surprised these characters were so much more lighthearted. And, while Matt said C3 would be more deadly and C1&2, I don't think the table were expecting whatever _The Legend of the Peaks_ is. I'm sure every hint that Otohan is nearby has thrown all of them into a fit, knowing how badly they can get their ass handed to them, regardless of how much they prepare.

[@lukasfraser1411]

Matt has also said many times, they aren't playing for the audience, they're playing for themselves. They don't care about the little things and would be happy to go back to playing a home game

[@Sootielove]

I also think it's interesting comparing Critical Role to Dimension 20 in this regard. I do think the D20 cast are more focused on figuring their way creatively through battles where CR leans harder into the world and characters, but I also think people forget D20 is edited. They've explicitly said during some of their live shows that they cut out a bunch of counting dice, reading rules, and figuring out their turns. The players and DM are incredibly skilled performers, but edited play always feels effortless in comparison.

[@jamieadams2589]

But they do edit that stuff out, which means the audience don't have to see it and be taken out of the moment. CR could easily edit out the same things but don't

[@pippastrelle]

@@jamieadams2589 The premise of CR is 4+ hours unedited actual play. It's not trying to be super edited. It's supposed to be more like just watching a game of DnD, and you either accept the warts and all or watch an edited actual play instead. (Plus, Dimension 20 films in, like, 1-3 hour sessions while CR is 4-6 hours. Editing is a much bigger load for CR).

[@weeklyfont]

I think the comedy nature of D20 means people dont get as mad when BLM throws a rule out the window. One of his DM onboarding strats is also giving people cards with spells on it, which you could see Ally shuffling through and asking about during their first campaigns. Funny thing is every TTRPG is at the whim of GM fiat so really any grognard posting about how any actual players weren't playing "by the rules" is inherently wrong.

[@mattbriddell9246]

D20 also has the advantage (or disadvantage if you're Brennan) of having a player the caliber of Emily Axford at the table on the "creatively figuring their way through battles" bit- in the sense that she is an unparalleled master of finding that ONE little detail that Brennan may have overlooked or that ONE little quirk of a particular spell or ability that nobody else ever thinks of and using that to absolutely demolish whatever encounter the party is in. She's creative as all get out but doesn't need to stretch into "rule of cool" territory because she inherently knows how to get the absolute limit out of her character's own abilities.

[@TeroTheShortOne]

@@mattbriddell9246 Emily and A Crown of Candy is why I am absolutely *obsessed* with Storm Sorc/Tempest Cleric multiclassing and pushing to see how I can break things with them.

[@MrSpectruElegiac]

" You don't roll for scry. " That acene always cracks me up in campaign 3.

[@shrewprincess]

I was terrified of playing a caster when I first started. I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to keep up. Watching Marisha make "mistakes" and still be loved by her table gave me the confidence to try. The Paladin I played next is my favorite character to this day.

[@mentalrebllion1270]

Same for me with finally taking up druid actually. I was a bit wary because of how much of their mechanics there is to juggle and how much information there is to recall in very fast paced situations. Now I have two druid characters that I play in two different active campaigns, a moon and a dreams circle. They are a blast to play and really are helpful to the party. And I just have good groups and patient DMs for when I stumble when running these characters. Marisha and the support she is shown really helped me get to a place where I felt I could give it a shot and I’m happy I did so.

[@crystal.fairydust]

I love this. This is actually one of my worries as someone with ADHD I don't remember stuff well. I've only played a few more shots with my cousin and I'm worried to find a group because of this

[@BiggestGal]

"D&D has some misleadingly named spells." *glaring angrily at Chill Touch*

[@silversugar2140]

THIS. Granted, now that I understand the spell I get why it's called that but it is a complete misnomer (I do find some misnamed spells to be interesting on some level and make lore reasons for it in my games haha) granted; no idea what else I'd call it instead.

[@Fl0wchart]

@@silversugar2140 BG3 Calls it Bone Chill, and I have fully embraced calling it this, despite the fact some of my players don't know which spell that is.

[@silversugar2140]

@@Fl0wchart I love that! God I wanna play BG3 so badly. One day. TwT

[@weaselwolf]

You mean "Ghost Ray"?

[@aoibhinquinn7310]

The "using your action to do a bonus action task" thing is something that we've always houseruled at my tables. I didn't realise it used to be an actual rule

[@tobiaslundqvist3209]

Edit "Oops answered the wrong comment sorry!" The issue is in the fact that potions can mimic powerful spell effects. Casting haste or stoneskin as a bonus action sans concentration could make the game rather messy. It's hard to manage the availability of potions as it relates to the actual steep cost of actions and resources spent by dedicated casters. A minor healing potion or any potion that mimics the effect of a bonus action spell would be fine in the balance sense but then more powerful potions only taking a bonus action becomes a problem. The way I see it, in my campaign, I don't see how this could be implemented consistently. But I can definitely see the appeal :)

[@struanroberts]

@@tobiaslundqvist3209i think they mean that an action usually being a more “important” thing than a bonus action, so using an action to do a bonus action thing isn’t overpowered. It would likely be the other way round though.

[@tobiaslundqvist3209]

@@struanroberts yeah I realized :) I put it in the edit.

[@wolfox7776]

I think the thing I like most about how Will Wheaton was during his time as a guest player: He accidentally tought most of the cast about failing forward.

[@SupergeekMike]

Some people were put on this earth to serve as an example to others 😂

[@wolfox7776]

@@SupergeekMike mich agreed there

[@mattbriddell9246]

I would say it's not necessarily a matter of them "not knowing their spells" as it is trying to apply Rule of Cool and look for creative ways to use spells in a few too many situations that get some people riled up.

[@uli11]

I actually think they are playing a better game as a result. They are focusing on trying to live up to the narrative spirit rather than the mechanical spirit of the spell. I think the narrative matters more than the game, in a tabletop rpg designed to create a shared story. In the context of Critical Role, I think the players are trying to come up with a fun narrative, and Matt plays a key role as the DM in determining if their vision fits into the world narratively. I love it. And I think it's how I prefer playing as well- i want to tell a cool story, and I want to trust my DM to be able to tell me if my interpretation of the spell in universe would work narratively.

[@gabrielcardoso8732]

Love the show, but it can also break immersion sometimes. I remember a one-shot where they bypassed a battle by casting animal friendship on a clearly-not-beast monstrosity... It was 'cooler', I guess.

[@damiens4601]

I like that, what riles me up is confusing save and check all the time, and not understanding when they are used

[@jamieadams2589]

But it's rarely a creative way to use the spell. They often just think a spell does or should work a different way.

[@uli11]

@@jamieadams2589 i think they are pretty creative. And I think you're a hater.

[@j.bat.8235]

Honestly? If I have to bend a rule to allow a player to create a cool/emotional/relevant scene, I would do that *every* single time. And I'm somewat strict and rule-lawyer-y as both a DM and a player.

[@telarr9164]

Exactly. It would be different if they were bending Dimension Door to bamf into the belly of every monster they met... but once in a campaign for an epic boss battle? Into the belly of an ACID DRAGON?! That's peak DnD! Denying it cos the RAW says so is a choice but there's no way that denying it improves drama.

[@McCrackenVaughn]

What’s an example of a situation you wouldn’t change the rules for?

[@CufflinksAndChuckles]

I'm reminded of when Emily Axford joined the party for a bit and during a 4-sided dive they asked her how she was so good at playing her character. Emily basically said that she just read her spells and thought of using them in theatrical ways.

[@MrRman100]

"trying to order a hotdog from a hardware store" me, as an Australian thinking there's nothing wrong with that

[@TheTerrainWizard]

Some hardware stores in the USA have hotdog carts at the entrance : )

[@TheTerrainWizard]

Some hardware stores in the USA have hotdog carts at the entrance.

[@whirlingnerdish2734]

It always makes me sad when someone shares a story about something cool or fun that happened in their game, only for someone to respond with, “That couldn’t have happened because X is against the rules and Y only allows Z.” As Liam often quipped in campaign 1, “Your fun is wrong!” Congrats on the baby, Mike! That’s awesome to hear!!

[@badwolfbeau]

I've played multiple spell casters in 5e. As you level up, there is so much to remember. It's really difficult to remember all spells and feats (druids in particular as they also have wildshapes as well). You'll always forget things and make mistakes. I'm not sure alot of the people who make these complaints have much experience playing spell casters.

[@kazeboiii]

This. I’ve been playing for almost a decade now & DMing for three of those years-certainly not as long as some, but long enough to know that it’s impossible to remember all those details. This is why we have reference materials and when you’re in the moment, you’re bound to miss something or misremember or misread! It’s just a part of the game and there’s no sense in holding up the game over it!

[@lordelon9955]

@@kazeboiii It doesn't help that even with playing 5e in its earlier stages where there were less spells. And now? So many books add spells, subclasses, and new abilities for updated races that even all these years later, I still don't know everything and I'm not going to try to. It would make a DM go insane to try to on top of running a game and everything that comes with it.

[@kazeboiii]

@@lordelon9955 Exactly! Will never understand the people who get hung up over it

[@PkBearMan]

In defence of DM's it can be a slightly annoying thing for them, as they have, let's be honest, a whole lot more to juggle and remember. Plus, most issues are resolved by just reading the spell/ability

[@kazeboiii]

@@PkBearMan As a DM, it's not at all that annoying. It's completely understandable, if you've some level of empathy. Like, yeah, read your spells and have references available at the table to double check when necessary, but it's unreasonable to expect your players to always get it right in the moment. People are human and humans make mistakes, especially when tensions are high.

[@bradygroves988]

I totally let "Find Traps" reveal the location of the trap as a house rule. It's a 2nd level spell that is instantaneous, and without a location it can be almost a complete waste. For example, in a large antechamber, knowing there's a pitfall trap or a glyph of warding within 120ft of you is virtually useless information. You now have something like 1000 squares to investigate. I have it work like Locate Object (also a 2nd level spell) and give the caster the general direction and distance to the trap, which usually narrows it down to a handful of tiles.

[@MajorHickE]

I do the same thing with the ranger's Primeval Awareness. Doesn't come up a lot anymore thanks to Tasha's, but it at least makes the ability worth using.

[@korenn9381]

Mercer does the same.

[@Rodshark75]

Yeah Find Traps finds traps and Find the Path finds a path in my campaigns.

[@alanleckert1]

2 sessions ago, a player used Suggestion on a wraith. Buried in the text it says that creatures immune to Charm are unaffected, but he didn’t read that out to me. Another player then reminded us that damage ends the spell. I get that spell descriptions are long sometimes, but I can’t know every spell on the fly, and I don’t want to have to look it up every time

[@Melina_Evarblume_Seelie]

Now imagine trying to make a ruling live without taking too much time whilst you know there's thousands of people watching you, some of them waiting to pick apart your rulings and mistakes. It does seem like an impossible task.

[@kevinwheeler7427]

Sometimes it’s ok to just let it slide and try to remember for later.

[@DK.Wicked420]

Not criticism, just curious as a fellow dm. Couldn't that just be attributed to insufficient prep work? As a DM I keep a list of my players' known spells with specific notes for spells.

[@Robbedem]

@@DK.Wicked420 what level are your players and how many type of casters are at your table? It's certainly doable in the beginning, but it won't take long before your notes become the entire handbook. ;)

[@kevinwheeler7427]

@@DK.Wicked420 that’s a good idea, but could be tricky for prepared spellcasters who could change their spells daily. Even with perfect prep, mistakes are still going to happen. It’s not something that a DM should dwell on or beat themselves up over. The worst thing you could do is grind the entire game to a halt to discuss a rule or look up sage advice, because then everyone’s fun stops.

[@pippastrelle]

The level of entitlement towards how the CR cast play is sad when you see it. It's not your game, dude; it's theirs. If you don't like the direction or pacing or strategies or rules, who cares? It only matters if the players complain. You can stop watching. They'll keep playing. That "Know when you're trying to order a hotdog from a hardware store" is such an important lesson as an audience member. Sure, it's sad when I've had to drop a show because it was going in a different direction to what I wanted but I'm happy that some people like it that way.

[@weeklyfont]

That it took 30ish episodes instead of 2 to kill the chat on screen is a testament to their patience

[@Boom12]

​@@weeklyfont so called nerds really enjoy gatekeeping their games for sure. CR fans, the nerds who wanna defend masculinity because they hate SJWs, when many of their fave comics touch subjects about social justice... yeah, masculinity is defended by entitled, sweaty men who can't find a girl for themselves.

[@pippastrelle]

@@007ohboy Oh, boy, I hope you don't talk to real people like that. You need to do something better with your life than stalking people you don't like on the internet 😅 Didn't think people like you actually existed. Wow.

[@crazy36069]

In some hardware stores, you can order hotdogs… Bunnings, for example

[@stalwartoffender9292]

What's annoying to me, more so than any toxic behavior or constant attempts at skirting the rules, is the fandom. The audience that goes mama bear mode if you point out something in the show you don't like. The people that act like the cast are their best friends and will take any criticism as a personal attack that ruins their day. People are so frickin weird.

[@thystldown]

No spoilers because you’re behind on the current campaign, but *gosh* your points about RAW vs Rule of Cool and Critters hating change hit hard after the last couple of weeks. Also I think you’re making very good and reasonable arguments, and so much of it just boils down to the all-purpose rule of “don’t be a dick.”

[@sherbert1321]

I’ve been playing for 3 years now and I still feel like a new player. I’m constantly bugging my DM for clarification on how he interprets certain rules. I really don’t think it’s all that big of a deal when the CR cast gets a rule wrong, because there are so many rules that can easily be misinterpreted or forgotten.

[@weeklyfont]

Friendo, I've been playing for 25 years as the forever DM and don't know all the rules. Fortunately, I play with good friends and it's not being streamed to 250K people itching to post so we all back each other up with our knowledge and accept rulings over rules. Never slow your game down to make sure you "got it right," you're the DM. Make a ruling and move on and be willing to own it/retcon if you botched it completely.

[@Abyrae]

Our DM allowed us to kill a guy with a non-damage spell (Create Water), because he found our 30 minutes party debate about "how to make it work" and "are lungs considered a container or not" hilarious. 😂 I could never play at a table where rules can never be broken. Some people can find that fun, but that's not for me. Each DM and D&D group can decide how to play the game. This is why I always roll my eyes at the "fans" that complain about how the CR crew decide to play the game at their own table.

[@zippomage]

i rule that daylight creates sunlight. It's a third level spell, let it do what it say it do on the tin.

[@Melina_Evarblume_Seelie]

It makes perfect sense for it to be sunlight.

[@EvilLobsterKing]

I consider myself a prefty savvy d&d player. I like to think I know a lot of the intricacies of how dungeons and dragons work. And I got very excited to use the Daylight spell to exploit some enemies sunlight sensitivity while playing Baldur's Gate 3. I fell for one of the classic blunders.

[@MrSeals1000]

It's really weird that it's a 3rd level spell for all it does. Making it actual sunlight makes sense. If I'm giving up fireball, it better be for a good reason and not a glorified cantrip

[@beardedpancake8847]

That's been one of my rules as well, though sadly it's never been used. I also make it so, spell dependent, spells that target a creature can also target an object. There is zero reason you shouldn't be able to hit the chain holding up a draw bridge with an eldritch blast.

[@kevinwheeler7427]

It’s better than a cantrip because it works in magical darkness

[@merchantarthurn]

The density of rules to remember and hesitancy about getting it wrong is why i didnt get interested in dnd until my boyfriend recommended BG3. Having the computer do the maths and learning the rules in a space where it only affected me (and i could reload for frustrating mistakes where id misunderstood something) helped a lot. DMs being steadfast on rules is something that continues to put me off the local ttrpg scene (it feels very min-maxy rather than roleplay and narrative focused)

[@raylea72]

See if you can find an online group. It is so so so worth it to find a group of people you really vibe with and play make-believe with new friends... and bonus! the computer does the math!!! We have a friend in England that we play with on Friday nights (early morning for him) and I wouldn't trade him for the world, we found him through Roll20. Keep looking. There are excellent dms and player groups out there that would love to have you at their table and, just as importantly, that you will love being a part of.

[@lordelon9955]

My best advice is if you have a friend you trust that DMs, or even your boyfriend if he does, have them run a one-shot at a low level with a small party. Like 3 or 4 people that are experienced and are willing to help new players, or are as new as you and ready to learn alongside you. That way you don't feel that pressure, and it makes it more enjoyable to learn alongside someone, because it doesn't feel like you're the only new player at the table that everyone looks at like the noob and are getting annoyed that you can understand the "basic" rules. I did this with my girlfriend and while it took her a while to really get into the roleplaying, she loves the game and looks forward to my games as well as a game I now play in that a friend of mine DMs. It's just nice to be able to share something you're passionate about with your SO, especially something like D&D. It definitely helps starting on BG3, and you might find it easier to get into the tabletop because of your experience with the game.

[@ashboren6845]

it upsets me when ppl rag on ashley bc she’s clearly been going through a lot of personal issues this current campaign, she has stated that she struggles with adhd, this is her first full campaign where she’s at every game, and she’s playing a druid which like you said has so many spells. it’s not that she doesn’t care-she’s clearly so invested, and just gets flustered easily. there’s room for improvement but it doesn’t look to me like she’s not trying or doesn’t care.

[@SupergeekMike]

"They're getting it wrong, therefor they aren't trying" really does seem to be the core idea behind this complaint, and like you said, I just disagree so strongly with that claim.

[@fakjbf3129]

I am 100% okay with her not knowing all her spells or not memorizing the stat blocks for her wildshapes. But it is slightly frustrating when she doesn’t know the stat block for Mister, since that basically hasn’t changed in three years and she has to be reminded he can do stuff like fly and teleport. And because she doesn’t remember what he can do she often doesn’t use him for anything at all, which is unfortunate because it’s a really useful feature of her subclass plus I love the way Matt roleplays him.

[@pippastrelle]

@@fakjbf3129 Again, you boil down to "They're getting it wrong, therefore they aren't trying". Mister is a whole other bunch of mechanics to master on top of a high-level druid. What might be easy for you to remember and keep up with isn't necessary easy for her.

[@fakjbf3129]

@@pippastrelle I never said she’s not trying. Just because someone is giving their best effort doesn’t mean it’s not frustrating to see them fail at a task. Also the “whole bunch of mechanics” for Mister is literally a single stat block that fits on a notecard.

[@pippastrelle]

@@fakjbf3129 Apologies, genuinely, I realise that was a bitchy way of saying that on my part. I guess just because mechanical faffing doesn't bother me, it was wrong to assume it didn't bother other people. Hope you have a good day x

[@gandolf7777]

Really enjoyed this video. I still talk to myself while watching when I think Matt rules wrong or a player forgets how a spell works, but I would never harass the cast about it and I've never understood what kind of person does. The outro clip perfectly sums it up. This is a game that they have said since the beginning is a game for the tables fun first and only. They appreciate us watching, but the game if fun for them and that is the only thing that really matters. I'm just glad they let us come along for the ride, because I really enjoy it.

[@_bats_]

A more important conversation that I really feel like nobody is having that I'd love to see you cover is the impact of D&D Beyond on their game. I'm totally caught up on CR but have also been re-watching C1 with a friend new to the show. Yeah, for sure, C1 is more loosey-goosey with the rules, there's more of the Pathfinder interference, more explicit homebrew rules meant to maximize fun, etc. But, I really think the examples of players not knowing their spells (for example) stick out in C1 more than recent campaigns is because they have spells or features or whatever written down on their character sheets that they invoke, but then don't know exactly what they do so misinterpret and then misuse them (or, at least, use them and are disappointed or underwhelmed with the results). C3 has an entirely different problem - they're all using D&D Beyond, so they tend not to misinterpret or misuse things as much as they used to since they have the full text available right at their fingertips. What does happen way, WAY more than it used to is that the players at the table have no idea what things their characters actually have or what they are able to do, because these things are buried in menus and their character sheets are populated at least quasi-automatically during level-ups. I've seen this effect come into play at my own table - one guy playing a Paladin wasn't even aware that he had Divine Smite for like a year of the campaign because it's buried in some class features menu that was auto-filled when he selected his class and isn't an action or bonus action, so he never knew he could even do it. That simply isn't possible if you're filling in a paper or digital character sheet yourself from the actual rules. D&D Beyond can be a great tool to streamline your character sheet for players who are already very familiar with the rules, but I have only ever seen it be detrimental to the fluency with the game rules and one's own character abilities when it comes to players who aren't nerds like us who invest a lot of time thinking about, discussing, and fiddling around with game mechanics. The CR cast has actually gotten very clearly worse at D&D (from a mechanics perspective) the more reliant they've become on D&D Beyond.

[@bosyber]

For us, in trying out daggerheart I found those cards really helped some players to see and understand what tools and traits their characters had, which made me think about providing them more real world ways to have things on hand for other games too. (we're physically separated hence online play and tending to online resources)

[@_bats_]

@@bosyber yeah that's one of my favorite features of the system for that exact reason. When a bunch of the stuff you can do is physical cards in your hand you're much more likely to remember to use it and know exactly how it works when you do.

[@BetaBRSRKR]

Too often I tell my players "keep reading" when they try to use a spell or feature...

[@SupergeekMike]

I honestly think if Matt did this, it would solve so many of the issues.

[@super_sloth_man6443]

So true! with spells especially

[@SCI-FIWIZARDMAN]

SAME. Cannot count the number of times one of my players has confidently read out the first sentence or paragraph of a spell, only to get confused when I tell them to keep going, and surprised/disappointed/upset when it turns out the spell doesn't work the way they wanted it to or has a drawback.

[@nehahradm1804]

Negative reinforcement = removing a negative stimulus to reinforce a desired activity. Positive punishment = adding a negative stimulus to discourage undesired activity.

[@radioact1ve808]

I want to disagree in a way that is respectful. Do they need to learn the rules, or owe it to their audience? No, they get to decide how they have fun. But should they? I think so. I think knowing the rules better establishes limitations, and encourage creative solutions. This would create a lot of fun, clippable, menorable experiences. A great example of this is when Matt, in the villain dimesion 20, used an obscure class feature to avoid a fatal fall. Learning the rules, then, i believe is kind of like the D&D version of eating your vegetables. Might not be fun, but you'll be glad you did

[@douglashilt5996]

Long time listener first time commenter here. But yeah, to be honest I think the fact that they get some of the rules wrong sometimes has actually been really helpful for me as a person who when I first started watching actual plays, I didn't really know a lot of the rules myself. And when some of our favorite actors would screw up, and then a couple episodes later or 20 minutes later, Matt or Brennan go back, and retroactively correct the mistaken Behavior, or even just hand wave It off, but still clarified that going forward in the future it will be different.... those moments really helped solidify learning the rules myself as a watcher. And even knowing that most of these shows are improved, I think that if there ever were a scripted sort of actual play so to speak, it would be helpful to have moments where somebody didn't know the rules " ", and had to have something explained to them, because that is extremely useful for viewers that may or may not know all the rules themselves. There have been over a thousand times at this point where somebody would cast a spell, or describe an effect that they wanted to do, and I didn't know how that worked mechanically because I don't play a lot of these tabletop games myself.... I just enjoy watching the content for the stories. But whenever somebody would describe a very intricate spell and or action, and then 30 seconds later, there also came a description from Matt or a correction from Abria, or a clarification from Brennan, those moments taught me more about how the game worked mechanically, and I liked that some of these people were wrong about what they were doing, so that I could learn with them. And to be perfectly honest, I would make the argument that maybe these actors and voice actors actually do know what a lot of these spells and things do, and maybe on camera they are playing a little bit dumb for the audience so that the audience doesn't get lost whenever they start doing extremely intricate shit. Just take the wind walking moment into consideration with Marisha.. I'm not accusing her of lying to her fans and viewers but, it is an actor's job to make up a story and a scenario and to make it seem believable. And in my little what if scenario here, what if Miss Marisha, actually did know how that spell worked, but as an actor maybe she thought that it was poorly worded, and she wanted to display how poorly worded the spell was, for other people to use in the future that were watching the show, and to Showcase maybe that this spell is kind of absolute garbage unless you want to travel really fast between towns. Maybe it wasn't her just being bad at reading a spell card, maybe it was her being an extremely good actor and an extremely good teacher and showcasing to us how easy it is to misinterpret a very complicated 7th level spell.... that's just my hot take, I think a lot of these mistakes aren't really mistakes and I think that's okay, because not everybody watching the show has an absolute encyclopedic knowledge of the rules and it's kind of nice watching people fuck up, and get it wrong and get corrected, and kind of learn how to play the game along with them.... and I think it really adds to the Nuance of watching an entire story unfold and learning how to do a new thing at the same time, and I think that's really beautiful ❤😊🎉

[@douglashilt5996]

Hell.. maybe you can make an episode, just based on that comment there... a defence in an actors/actresses autonomy to "play dumb", to pander to an audience that may or may not know what the hell the performer is trying to pull off...... Surely this must be a topic in the industry worth investigating, wink wink, nudge nudge

[@donkeyfly43]

One thing I was surprised that you didn't touch on was how online tools has made looking things up so much more streamlined and easy than it was before, even in the halcyon days of 2015. When I first started getting the idea of "hey maybe I'd like to play D&D" I was incredibly put off and frustrated that the rules for the game were basically inaccessible online; the only things that had the rules were janky, ad-riddled sites like the forgottenrealms fandom wiki. Online tools have come so far, and that's made the game a lot more accessible for people who don't want to lug around a functional textbook in order to make characters for fun. Once the cast started playing with iPads at the table, I noticed a distinct drop in rules errors. Thats not even beginning to touch on the wealth of youtube content that discusses interesting character builds or rules interactions that I'll often put on when doing the dishes or whatever. I guarantee that I wouldn't know this crap half as well as I do but for channels that discuss rules and character creation, and those have only been really rolling for the past 4 or 5 years

[@starhound9354]

Find traps not actually finding traps still baffles me.

[@Lurklen]

I do think that it can be annoying when the players are arguing or debating things, and it becomes awkward with Matt trying to tell them when their thing doesn't work and they get upset and have to rethink everything. I think it's less they don't know the system (though it could be for some people) and more that confusion, arguing, and figuring out basic aspects of their character is dead air when you're watching a story play out. It's kind of the equivalent of someone forgetting their lines in a film, and needing a reading, and the filmmakers just leaving that in because it's just a momentary thing and the audience *knows* they are all actors anyways. Regular players forget stuff all the time (I have a player who in moments of stress still asks if she rolls the "big one"), but regular players aren't performing for an audience. As an audience member, it's kind of tiresome (though at this point it's kind of become charming enough to circle back around to being funny). I don't expect encyclopedic knowledge, but I don't love watching them try to process this stuff in the middle of an encounter or whatever. Jams up the flow. They don't need to know the whole "script" but it'd be nice if they knew their "lines". And like, when they first made the switch it was very understandable, and this was very much a side gig they did to have fun. This is a business now, and it's been nearly a decade of using this system. So I get people finding it annoying. (I don't know why Marisha gets all the hate {other than a lot of sexism}, she's usually on the ball. Ashley (who I love, always been a big fan before I even knew she was part of this) seems to forget how her *entire character* works some episodes. And Taliesin (whom I also quite like) can go into the same kind of mode where he just seems unable to remember how basic stuff operates. But at the same time nobody's perfect and they've both expressed having difficulty focusing under pressure. But that happens way more often than Marisha forgetting a spell or whatever.)

[@ForeverDegenerate]

@SupergeekMike First off, thank you for covering this. You said a lot of what's needed to be said for a long time. So kudos for that! Secondly, one thing I'd like to add to what you've said is that there's a difference between what you know outside the game and what you know in the moment. Allow me to explain with an example. In a 5E Campaign I was in, I was playing Ranger and I had just gotten "Pass Without Trace" so, between sessions, I read the spell and planned out how I intended to use the spell, including if I had to tail someone because, you know, Ranger not Rogue. Cut to next session where, you guessed it, I ran into a situation where I decided to tail someone. And guess what I never did? That's right: Cast "Pass Without Trace." And because of that, my tailing mission failed horribly. No real consequences, though, because I was just trying to figure out where I could find this character later so I followed them to see where they might be when I came back. Again, failed that so I just didn't get the info I wanted. Still, immediately after that whole sequence, when I wasn't in the moment and had a moment of clarity, I went, "Ah Dammit! I forgot about Pass Without Trace!" Half the table facepalmed, the other half laughed at me, and the DM just shrugged and went, "Oh well. Next time." All of this is to say that sometimes when players mess up, it's not because they never read the spell or didn't understand the spell, but rather that, in the heat of the moment, they just forgot stuff. Because, you know, we're all Human having one's mind go completely blank in the heat of a moment is the most Human thing that can happen.

[@timidwolf]

The first time I played Vampire: The Masquerade was also the first time for all the PCs in that game (not the DM), none of us knew the rules nor our own abilities beyond the surface description. Our DM commented during the following campaign that he liked this as we didn't spend time working out the most optimal way to use our abilities and approached situations in a realistic fashion, which some apparently started doing after being more familiar with the system, it just made it flow better. Every player in that first campaign agrees to this day it was the best one we played!

[@equusheart3344]

I still think the funniest part about the "rolling for scry" blunder was Matt just sitting back and letting them hang themselves. Which, to be fair, they had been messing with Matt A LOT in campaign 3. Especially Sam lol. So I feel Matt was getting his own back with that. Also, I feel all the hate and negativity towards the Critical Role cast is unfair and completely uncalled for. Like, jeeze, lighten up people. Or get over it and go touch grass 🙄

[@SmarkAngel]

We can't, they're dead.

[@gibbousmoon35]

You mentioned The Adventure Zone, which reminded me of how Clint's persistent odd-ball and mostly ineffective use of a particular spell led to one of the best roleplay moments I've ever heard.

[@claudiamcfie1265]

Matt's expression during the scry clip is priceless. TBH, Matt's encyclopedic knowledge of the rules is truly epic. I spend a lot of my time looking up rules online during sessions.

[@kongoaurius]

One or my favorite podcasts "Dungeons and daddies" absolutely have no idea what most of the rules are. Beth May who plays a rogue used sneak attack for the first time like 40 episodes into the series

[@roguebarbarian9133]

They do eventually get better at the game. I would argue their biggest issues right now are 1. thinking every spell has a casting time of one action (looking at you ceremony, illusionary terrain, and probably a few others) and 2. randomly handicapping themselves by requiring components when they almost exclusively never play with them.

[@futurecaredesign]

I have come to think of it like this: if this crew knew the rules by heart, the threshold for entry of new players into the hobby would be much higher. Now you can feel like a noob right along side them.

[@ffreed]

Yeah, I have been in D&D and Star Trek Adventures groups in which everybody (except me) knew all the deep-dive granularity of the rules. All of the table talk becomes about that and stays there. Speaking from that experience, it’s not even a little bit fun for a casual person to listen to, and it’s not even educational.

[@silversugar2140]

​@@ffreedEyyy, sorry to interject, but I am delighted to find someone else into Star Trek Adventures! My group is in the middle of our second season and I am loving it. We're incredibly flexible with how we run it and I am so grateful to that as someone who struggles with retaining that kind of information especially while performing--I would much rather have my head in my character's space than be bogged down with knowing every minute detail. But yeah, I don't see peeps talk about STA nearly as much as I would like especially given the space. I am so happy I stumbled across ya'! I wish YT made chatting with peeps easier I'd love to talk shoo without bogging down this thread haha. 🖖

[@ffreed]

@@silversugar2140 Nice! I was until recently in two different STA groups through StartPlaying. I enjoyed them both; I played a female Orion operations/security officer in one, and a Pakled Engineering ensign in another. Work scheduling forced me to step away from them both, but they were great to be in. One group, though, was full of the aforementioned guys who were really into the technical detail of all the rules and military procedure while I was just doing Rule of Cool with my sleeves-rolled-up Orion asskicker. The other group was a Lower Decks campaign and was much lighter with the rules, so that was a better overall fit. The times I’ve run Star Trek as a GM have been with Lasers & Feelings.

[@silversugar2140]

@ffreed Okay you had me immediately with Orion~! My current character is a Vulcan/Orion holodeck programmer with more than a dash of Ed (Cowboy Bebop.) I really love the idea of an Orion security officer tho. StartPlaying was new to me and I had to be creative about searching for it but I super dig that so thank you for introducing that to me, like, cheers! At first I wouldn't have thought players of STA would play like a war-game given how science/exploration/character focused the source material is and my own perspective is towards the social aspects but then I thought about it for 2.5 seconds longer and I realized how stupid I was. Hahah! Of any game STA would absolutely have a sharp divide in play styles! I can easily picture some of it being filled with the sort of toxic behavior as described in the video too--given some of the fandom's reputation (which I really feel is a vocal minority and bad media representation, fortunately.) Still, I'm sorry you were in a mismatched group and hope it wasn't too bad. Well obviously not if you gave it another go! Still. I think it is soooo important for peeps to remember to not be beholden to one group of style of game. There are endless ways to run TTRPGs after-all. And more to bring it back to this thread topic at large, that's one thing I truly hope new players take advantage of and something I as an experienced RPer need to remember myself; it's really awesome to play at other tables and experience a wider variety of play and peoples as we are always going to learn something new from those experiences. (Ah man, though I wanna play a Lower Decks game so bad but we're waiting for a milestone before then. TwT)

[@ashtinpeaks9972]

If you are already basing DND on critical role you have failed. Thsts a HUGE RED FLAG. A normal dnd table is not critical role and treating it as such is a yikes. Play ya games how you like, but CR is not the standard for regular games.

[@piperbird7193]

I play a druid and I love it. But it is SO easy to misread or misunderstand a spell, especially when you're trying to read the spell and pay attention to what's happening at the table. No matter how long you've been playing, you're going to goof something up sometimes. I never really felt it was that big a deal when CR got a spell wrong. And honestly, I have no way of knowing if they've decided the way a spell is used is a house rule or not anyway, so if Matt is good with it, I'm good with it.

[@MonstrousRegiment]

Yeah, especially when you realize what you want to cast is concentration too, so your last spell has to end. A huge "GAH!!!" when you end up dropping Protection from Good and Evil at a crucial moment....

[@user-hh7qi4qb9n]

Great insights and analysis as usual! Keep up the good work. If I recall correctly, the first time Sam’s character in campaign 2 cast a spell while invisible, the other players seemed quick to remind him that casting a spell would end invisible. Since I was late to their show and had just binged campaign 1 and the campaign 2 episodes leading up to this, it brought to my mind the moment in campaign 1 where Sam had missed that detail. Sam’s response to everyone’s reaction was simply saying, “I know.” And, his character continued their action.

[@manuelanaya3712]

Amazing video as always! Thank you for all you do and im glad to hear about your new baby, congrats!

[@Shane-hx4xp]

In a Pathfinder game I was running I didn’t bother checking spells and the cleric player loved casting the spell nap stack which pretty much allowed the characters to sleep for 2 hours and regain their abilities instead of the8 hours normally needed. It was probably over a year of using this spell before the player one day realized it was only allowed to be cast once a week or once a month I don’t fully remember. We still joke about it years later.

[@Guy_With_A_Laser]

I think for me a lot of this comes down to how disruptive these rules discussions end up being for the overall gameplay experience for the rest of the table. If a player needs to look up an obscure spell or niche class power that is rarely used, sure, I understand that's a thing that can happen, and if I'm the DM and someone is casting Wind Walk, I'm probably looking up the spell too because I've never seen it used before and want to make sure I understand what's going on. I do find it frustrating when players don't remember or understand core features of their character. I don't think it's an unreasonable amount of effort to expect players to understand what their main abilities are, what dice they'll need to roll, and what limitations there might be on them so the game doesn't grind to a halt every time the rogue's turn comes up because they don't remember how sneak attack works. Yes, some mechanics aren't intuitive, and yes, there's a learning curve, but I think there's an unhealthy tendency in the TTRPG community to just foist all of the problems in the game onto the DM, and not expect the players to take any responsibility for understanding how the game works or how to improve the gameplay experience for the other people at the table.

[@tagabundok1]

I'm reminded of being in line to meet Travis and Laura at MomoCon in 2017 and talking with a fan who loved watching Campaign 1 but never played D&D herself. She just really loved watching the show while she worked on her projects. It showed me that people can love the same thing I love but for different reasons.

[@Harlizarrd]

I think you have a good point about how Matt's taught the players to play vs how he actually runs the game. It honestly seems so hard for the players to know what is or isn't possible, even for their own characters. Especially since some players WANT to bend the rules in cool ways, while others have been burnt by that and lean more RAW. It feel like Liam rubs against this a lot, which is why all his characters (C2 onwards) are built to explicitly do what he wants within the rules, often as a direct response to rulings/ways of running the game that Matt has used in the past. E.g: Keen Mind on Caleb combated being denied info such as time of day/recent events, and Bait and Switch on Orym let him essentially drag hurt people out of enemies range without them taking Attacks of Opportunity, which almost killed a few people in C2.

[@20storiesunder]

It absolutely matters. The dm is used as a knowledge crutch which in the long term will contribute to their burn out. I think alot of the situations where the rules are gotten "wrong" are nothing big but there are some stuff (inconsistent rullings and cast not knowing their class features) which impacts the game negatively

[@pippastrelle]

Excellent video btw. One of those easy, interesting listens where I double-take at the timestamp at the end. Doesn't feel like 40 minutes at all.

[@andreacallegari7137]

It does slow down play and make the overall product less enjoyable, and in other DND actual play series, the footage would be edited and cut while they search for the effects of the spell. Nowadays, it doesn't bother me too much. However, if the footage was a little bit more polished, I would not complain- but that's just me being spoiled by years of Dimension 20 and Naddpod

[@roibenr]

It does blow my mind how little editing they do considering how big they are but I'm sure others prefer a less edited style.

[@pedrogarcia8706]

@@roibenr editing how? It's live.

[@EvilLobsterKing]

​@@pedrogarcia8706campaign 3 has all been prerecorded

[@sammessor7290]

@@pedrogarcia8706 I dont mean to be contrarian, but CR has not been live since Pre-pandemic, ever since episodes have been recorded early and then played later, the episodes are just played through a livestream, probably because thats just what the fanbase is use to. So yea if they wanted they could be edited to keep the vid down a bit, but I think they wanted to preserve that feeling of when they did live.

[@piggylady225]

I definitely prefer the lack/minimization of editing. I’m one of those people who likes to look at every little detail. If there’s a cut, even if it’s unlikely to be something important, I still feel like I’m missing out on something. And, as a casual D&D player, the mistakes they make are nothing compared to my table’s misunderstandings (which I have no problems with). Plus, I watch while working on crochet projects, completing one of which can take 1 or 2 entire episodes. Time is also not a problem for me. To each their own!

[@JeffreyMcLain]

I can't remember if I ended up sending the comment last video, but I was going to suggest a pop filter for the Yeti, and I'm glad you invested! I'm an audiobook narrator and did my first two books on a Yeti and the filter did WONDERS for me. I also didn't want to sound like a dick making that comment suggestion. Idk, brain is leaky on this Monday, apologies! Anyway - loved your sponsor transition. Well done =) Also - really cool that you have sponsor stuff! Love that as you're getting more into content creation to pay the bills you're finding deserved success. Thanks for your work bud, I always enjoy seeing your videos pop up on my feed!

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you! I’m glad the filter helped. I had already bought one by the time the last video aired, because that sound issue bothered me, too lol

[@JeffreyMcLain]

@@SupergeekMike The thing I'm learning about audio is that it's an iterative process! I was going mad crazy doing fade in's on every plosive during my editing process before I got my filter on there. Lordy, it can get nuts. Good on you for keeping up with your tweaks and iterations =) Cheers man! Hope the kiddo is doing AWESOME!

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you@@JeffreyMcLain !

[@juniperjenny287]

I'm put in mind of BLeeM's recent comments on the WBN patreon about his purpose for the rules...that for him having rules for combat has value, but rules for social encounters are less important because he himself feels confident making those rulings and figuring out consequences in that realm. Matt Mercer creates gorgeous complex combat set pieces, with lots of moving pieces and cleverly homebrewed monsters and npcs. Maybe he's more comfortable adjudicating consequences in those combat situations and therefore places less weight on the "rules" as such.

[@ColonelMustache]

I guess for me it depends on what effect the misunderstanding has on the scene. The wind walk moment, for example…that whole fight sucks. Everyone is stressed out, it’s uncomfortable to watch, it’s just a rough scene overall. No hate on Marisha at all (she’s gotten more than enough of that), we all make mistakes, that one just happened to have unfortunate consequences. The “you don’t roll for scry”, on the other hand, is just good comedy. There’s no harm that comes from the mistake aside from the players looking foolish, everyone is laughing and having a good time. Who could be mad at that? Totally different vibes, even if both moments could be summed up as “you didn’t read your spells.” I would say it’s a fair criticism to tell players to read more than just the name of their spell, though (which wasn’t the problem in those two scenes). There are absolutely bullshit spells whose names are very deceptive, and that should be fixed. But that’s all the more reason to read the description rather than just taking the spell based on the name.

[@Chrosteellium]

I love knowing the rules. I like having "this is how it works X and it works that way because Y" because I like structure. This comes in handy when everyone in my group except for the DM has never played before (me included, I've just consumed a LOT of dnd content). However, me liking the rules doesn't prevent me from asking my DM if this certain way a spell or whatever can be interpreted. And I might raise my eyebrow when my DM lets us roll again because we roll double 3's with advantage. But I'm not going to go "ummm actually, you can't do that 🤓" Because he thinks it's BS when we roll the same number twice when we have advantage. "Oh I can use the help action or Guidance after the roll of a skill check? Okay DM, you're the boss" Let people be.

[@sjferguson]

This was absolutely amazing! Thank you for taking the time to put this together and offer important dialogue. Also, congratulations on your new baby!

[@SupergeekMike]

Thank you so much!

[@searchforsecretdoors]

I love your take. Personally, I watch a lot of DND KZbin, so I know how my spells work really well... until I am playing. In the game, my mind is focused on so many things, I often make some simple mistake. And I don't even have to worry about what am audience might be thinking.

[@michaelday6870]

I really appriciate this video. Just DM'd for the first time yesterday thanks to videos like and including yours and it went great. Congradulations on the baby, hope it's as rewarding as it is exhausting! 🤗

[@Feetareleghands]

I still remember one of the earlier Q&As with Geek and Sundry where Matthew Mercer said something like "It's scary to put our game up and have the internet tell you your fun is wrong" That always stuck with me.

[@catherineelmore2004]

As someone who’s new to the game and is still learning- just made level two in my first campaign!- and who got into the hobby through watching actual plays (starting out with Dimension 20 and going from there) I really appreciate this video. Like… I admire the heck out of players who clearly know their spells and everything- but there’s so much to know and people are people so… honestly the getting some things wrong on occasion and needing to be like oh wait, can’t do that let’s try this instead is legitimately a cool thing to see, especially by people who play a lot. For instance- I love watching Emily Axford blow Brennan Lee Mulligan away with remembering rules for her spells that he didn’t remember *when he’s been playing and DMing for twenty years at this point!* But I also love watching early seasons where Ally Beardsley was a complete newbie and everyone at the table, especially Murph, was taking the time to help them learn- being like oh the info you want is here or maybe try this instead of that. And watching their growth with the game is also *really cool*! Also… like you said… people have different focuses at their tables- different things they enjoy, and that’s fine and good. And Critical Role (and D20 and others) are played by people who clearly enjoy the narrative first and foremost- which is also a good thing because they’re also making a tv show. Fewer people would want to watch if they were playing a number crunching dungeon crawler- there’s nothing wrong with that type of game if you want to run it and that’s what you enjoy, but it would be more of a niche audience that would want to watch it as opposed to something more narrative heavy. Which are two reasons I don’t get people lobbing heavy criticism at casts of either show for the way they run their game- no one is making you watch and no one is making you run your game the way they do, so let them have their fun! Critiquing media is fair and valid; explaining to newbies that ok, this is homebrew rather than rules as written, talk with your DM before trying this in your home game to see if they’ll allow it is fair and valid! What isn’t fair and valid: throwing needlessly contrarian insults at people for doing something like playing a game in a way that you don’t like, especially when they’re complete strangers just trying to entertain themselves and others.

[@omok2]

I'm a firm believer the people that complain the most about CR rules are people who don't play often. Whenever I talk to people who actually play a lot they talk about bending rules all the time to allow for some things.

[@JadeReloaded]

Also, people actually playing still argue about rules with the PHB in their hand! All the times the story screeches to a halt because players need to re-read the rules and then pick a fight over their interpretation is one of the reasons I quit playing.

[@omok2]

@JadeReloaded sounds more like it was the players you played with rather than the game. As a DM you have to have a level of asshole in ya to tell your players how it is.

[@ilmari1452]

"The cast members aren't the same type of nerds" -> 👏👏👏 Absolutely. They're theater kids. They simply don't put much value on the numbers and what you accurately identify as the "wargamey" interpretations of D&D. It's part of why I think that 5e was probably a better system for the group than Pathfinder (not just for doing as an actual play). They like handwaving rules at the right dramatic beats and they largely have the right sense of narrative and tension to make that call. And it's something that 5e encourages! And it's why came to really love Critical Role. They're _my_ sort of nerds. 😄

[@AngryTenko]

Theater nerds are taking over the scene and the math nerds are having a hard time coping because they dumped CHA irl.

[@Dhyfis]

Not a 5e DM, but I have GMed a few systems. At my table, we do value the rules quite a bit because that is the framework that the characters have for understanding their world. Even then, houserules happen. Sometimes purposefully because we tinker or accidentally because we misread something and decided we liked it better instead of going back to the correct way. No two tables of any game are ever the same and that is the whole point. As for when I'm watching Critical Role or any other lets play, I couldn't care about the specific rules. I care about the characters and the kind of story that can really evolve when every character truly has their own unique will and when the arbiter of your fate sometimes comes down to a roll. And if their specific rules are different than mine, so be it.

[@Crispyconcerto]

My first exposure to dnd was an early edition rulebook my brother found in my dads stuff from the 80s. It seemed horrifyingly complex, and it held me back from looking into dnd later on. Critical role (and friends) got me into it when i realized it was not as needlessly mathy as i expected.

[@Swan-yo6hn]

Given the comment you responded to, I feel the need to congratulate you again. I am so happy for you being a dad now! You sounds super excited every time you mention it and it is lovely to see :) Thank you for all the content you put out on youtube. I watch almost all of it and enjoy it immensely!

[@gameraven13]

I remember getting into D&D and shortly after finding them, they were about a year into campaign 1, and since I had no actual table to play at, bingeing to the point where I could watch episode 50 of campaign 1 live was my D&D fix. This continued throughout campaign 1 and I was lucky to, by the end of it, have proper tables, but it was nice being able to see them play. I fell off with them just because I'm a forever DM weekly now, so I don't need them for my fix anymore. I am definitely glad I got somewhat introduced to the hobby through them though because one major lesson to pick up from them is how to just "oh well" and move on when you make a rules mistake. As you've pointed out in the CR Demystified series, there are a few times where Matt's retroactive rule fixing was a bit harsh and unwarranted, but for the most part I'd say he does pretty well. It has definitely also taught me the art of making sure I clarify all implications and restrictions of a spell or ability before continuing.

[@somenerdpng]

I basically never comment, but that sponsor transition was smooth, I did not expect that 😂

[@dancovich]

15:26 This is really tricky. Yeah, most of the time a spellcaster would know how their spell works, but anyone can make mistakes. I imagine casting a spell while invisible would be a really common mistake if D&D was real, because depending on how much time has passed since you became invisible, you might just forget you were invisible. Weird analogy, but I remember in the Nickelodeon show Avatar: The Last Airbender, people forgot all the time one of their team members were blind and often asked her to do tasks that required sight. The blind character made that mistake herself, when everyone else didn't assign her the job of gluing posters to a wall and she angrily complained that they didn't trust her to do that job and then glued the poster facing the wall! The point is, spells that put you in a state might be really easy to "forget" you are on that state and not consider the interaction between that state and other spells. I imagine it's an easy mistake to make, so a good way of emulating that would be holding the player accountable for making the mistake, because it is possible their characters would make the same mistake.

[@theeutecticpoint]

hotdog from a hardware store, that's a good one! Also gratz on the new progeny, I hope everyone is doing well now!

[@ToaArcan]

"Sometimes a spell's name can be misleading." Hey everybody, remember Chill Touch? The spell that does not do cold damage and isn't a touch spell?

[@lucascobrea5445]

As a new dm who doesn’t know every spell even vaguely I have my players read the description to me when they try to use the feature. That way I know how it works as well as it forces them to read the fine print

[@TSTARDOOLEY]

As both a player and DM, I pride myself on knowing the 5e rules quite well. But it happens often during games that I get flustered and just completely forget how something works or get it wrong. When I’m watching CR I almost immediately notice when they get rules or even lore wrong. Being in the moment is just such a different experience from spectating. All actual plays deserve at least some grace. And as you said, rules are not the focus of CR, just the framework.

[@GAdmThrawn]

6:25 I think I recall that the time between sessions tended to be more than a month. Sometimes it was a few months or more that they all would finally have time to get together to play at home. And those sessions would last for a _LOT_ longer than they do here. So, I'm sure that they spent a lot of time re-familiarizing themselves with their characters and spells before session. That obviously changed when they did sessions weekly. 8:35 I find that the names of the spells are usually what grabs their attention and, depending on the player, they will either look up the details of the spell immediately or forget to do it until the show is airing. And I can only assume that the time to do so is right before the show is ready to air or afterwards as they all have relatively busy lives (which you bring up later). My opinion on the matter is this: Do you know the difference between an error and a mistake? Anyone can make an error. But that error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it. Has the cast of CR refused to correct their errors over time? Perhaps, perhaps not. I am a relatively newcomer to DnD and a new DM, and I haven't memorized all the spells or their effects. If there is a spell I am unfamiliar with, then I pause the game to look up the spell to check to see if it's being used correctly or if they got the details right. Even though my players are more experienced than me, watching Matt and Co. play has taught me to check up on stuff. It's especially prevalent when almost half of my players are playing homebrew characters, and sometimes homebrew spells.

[@user-fc7sv5ln6m]

Misleading spell names - the Dungeon Dudes called Find Traps "Confirm My Paranoia" :)

[@Thomas_Mills]

I just stumbled across your channel a few months ago and have thoroughly enjoyed watching your demystified series! Halfway through watching this video I realized I wasn't actually subscribed, so you got yourself a +1 now! Try and take things easy with the baby for a while, don't push yourself to hard. Also, that same commenter left a response comment on this video, if you are interested. (Not sure if you have already read it)

[@ira-jay]

To be entirely honest, the best part of 5e is how far you can stray from 5e's baser rules and have the game still function. That fact alone makes 5e one of, if not, the best system out there and it really isn't close. What i enjoy about critical role more so than other shows using 5e is that they feel more like they're just playing the game to their own personal ability and standard rather than putting on a product show, and as much as i love dimension 20, they feel more like a scripted show. Both of these points serve to emphasize how stupid that first shown comment is, they are playing an improve game where they shoot colorful lasers and lights at lizard people, WOTC does not pay them salary to play the game on camera, there is no standard they must uphold, no viewer is owed them seamlessly going from encounter to encounter without the realness element of them looking at their spells to see what they do. Dnd is a game, they are playing like friends who are talented, not actors putting on a show. They are streaming, there is no quality level mandate aside from the one they set themselves. Weird ass fans need to stop pretending shit is deeper than it is.

[@VitoWolf-me3tq]

Well put. Thanks for the content

[@christianquenan1358]

In France, the two most popular actual plays use d100 house made system, even if the most popular system in France is D&D. They are this popular because of the cast and the stories it tells, not because of the system (or at least, despite not using the most successful system)

[@delarkaBCN]

gotta love SUPERGEEK DAD

[@doomhippie6673]

Love this video. Very nicely put.

[@yipyippo]

That guy who said “you might as well do improv” is insane holy. I almost choked on my coffee LOL i almost exclusively do improv as a DM pls Edit: i just got to the part where he mentioned the baby and actually f that guy.

[@tobiaslundqvist3209]

That man was categorically an a** but still the improv thing has a point. I mean the hobby has been enriched by alot of dedicated improv aficionados the last decade but for the rather large group of people who enjoy the game part of dnd things can get frustrating when trying to engage with the fandom. There's this idea that's been made popular by dnd influencers that there is this gulf between players that is really exaggerated. Rules vs fun is not a fact or really a reasonable representation of how these games usually play out. I whole heartedly support people throwing out the book and making a womderful improv adventure, that's cool, but it is reasonable to question where it stops being a game i feel. Again, that guy with the baby comment, not cool.

[@williamkinser7063]

I dont really know why people bash them on the rules when their whole style is Narrative and Story over 100% strict rule following. That a totally valid play style that suits thier entertainment platform.

[@NIKSEEN]

Perfect timing! I’m about to walk my dog and needed something to listen to

[@BDSquirrel]

Gonna be honest. They weren't playing D&D. They were playing a table top JRPG light system with the D&D label slapped on it. All of the classes get magic powers! Mages get to cast first level spells over and over again without having to recharge! Fighters can magically heal themselves in the middle of battle! A short rest heals you! This is JRPG light and NOT D&D.

[@user-fc7sv5ln6m]

So many good points in this episode, and you've even made me feel a bit better about my own in-game mistakes! So, thanks heaps Mike.

[@chesra9515]

This might be the best and the most comprehensive video you have made yet.

[@lucashamrock817]

As fate would have it, I’m perpetually teaching players the rules, as I teach all my friends how to play and every few years the people who play cycle around and a new person joins. Such that I’m always teaching players and helping them during the session, and as I’ve come to play more I’ve come to enjoy that part of the game. You make a lot of great points that I agree with, and realize I’ve come to believe myself over time. The one I would like to add is, as a great pirate once said, “ I think you made a lot of great comments that I realised I agree with. One I would add from my own belief, as a great pirate once said, “The code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules”. If the rules prevent the players from having fun, then the rules are in the way and should be removed/ignored. Most of my players tend to butt heads with the rules and I let them give way when it makes sense because then they get to feel the entire point of playing, a sense of achievement and joy. Great video :) congrats (maybe very belated congrats) on the child, many blessings

[@DaDinoDM]

Great breakdown as always! I posted it on a a recent VOD of theirs, but I think it’s worth mentioning here. I wish they had an DM assistant (or player volunteer) to look up rules so Matt can focus on GMing. He has plenty on his plate with the amount of knowledge he’s supposed to have for the players to reference. It really seems like it stresses him out to have to look things up and then he’ll just go “fuck it” at a certain point and give up, when it seems like it would be so helpful to have someone he trusts to do that for him so he can focus on *literally* everything else. Idk, it seems like it’d be helpful, but I suppose there’s plenty of reasons it doesn’t make sense. It just seems like a no-brainer for the most popular “live” dnd actual play on the internet. Hell, I’d do it for free, I’m sure many of us would!

[@fakjbf3129]

I think holding a player to their misreading is sometimes warranted because people make mistakes, including heroes. Scanlan losing invisibility from casting a spell is I think a good example because that’s the kind of thing an actual hero might not think about in the moment. But these moments should be fairly infrequent, not the go to solution for how to handle misreadings.

[@SupergeekMike]

I think that one bothers me a lot less than other examples because Sam is such a great player, and thrives on failure, more so than anyone else at the table (Travis might be a close second). If every situation of misreading the rules went that well, I think this would honestly be a non-issue lol

[@fakjbf3129]

@@SupergeekMike Yeah the big thing is the DM doing this to punish the player or are they doing it because it makes for a better moment at the table overall.

[@stephendonovan5056]

Think it's worth saying congratulations on your new addition, Mike. I think your new family member will do nothing but enrich your content. I also love your balanced and pragmatic approach. You've got me more and more into D&D. I love critical role, but watching your videos makes me want to actually play. I have nobody in my social circle who plays, so it's a tough one for me right now. But I've hammered BG3 to fill that void. When I am able to, I will sign up for your patreon and join to discord. Looking forward to being a part of your community.

[@CrimsonNgreyshardplate]

Not to be causing problems, for me it was always frustrating when players argue with the DM after it was explained that the spell didn’t work the way they expected.

[@SupergeekMike]

I get that, but to me, that behavior is usually indicative of a few things: 1. The player doesn’t think Matt understood what they were trying to accomplish. 2. Matt used to be a lot more willing to be flexible with what spells could do, so that sort of haggling was not problematic. 3. Matt sometimes rules on spells differently from how the players assumed, and when that happens, the players want to figure out if they’re misunderstanding the spell, or if he’s misunderstanding the spell - thus, clarifying questions and pushback. 4. Matt sometimes does a really poor job of indicating what the consequences will be, aka does not tell them until after they cast the spell that he’s going to rule it a certain way. Occasionally the issue is more on the player’s side (aka they misread the spell, or misunderstood something about the situation), but I’ve also seen it play out so often because of one or more of the reasons above.

[@CrimsonNgreyshardplate]

@@SupergeekMike I think those are great points and very accurate. But as a DM I’m sure you’d agree that if a player came up to you for clarification vs pushback there’d be different reactions from both you and the party. In all situations, if you’re correct, if you’re wrong, or if you see the connection the player is making, clarification has always been the healthier approach at tables in my experience. I’ve seen clarification get resolved so much faster and it keeps the table environment much more friendly than pushback. From what I’ve seen and experienced pushback puts people more at odds and defensive while clarification cuts to the understanding of the interpretation. I know people get very invested in the game but I feel like promoting clarification vs promoting push back is a lot better in keeping positive table etiquette and moving games along. In the case of CR and other major table top shows it’s frustrating to me since they are very influential across the world and people pick up on habits seen on screen (for better or for worse). Love your work as well! This is a topic I’ve had to work with my own players on so that’s why it’s something I’m so passionate about.

[@SupergeekMike]

@@CrimsonNgreyshardplate I mean, his players definitely haggle with him a lot more than I would like my players to haggle with me, and that's true across the board lol. But also, part of this has to do with how they interface with the rules. It seems like the players just don't know whether Matt and they have the same interpretation of the rules, so both parties (Matt and the players) often hold their ground and push back on each other about how this spell/feature/rule DEFINITELY works, when at least one of them is usually wrong. This is actually why I wish Matt used the method I think most commonly solves these clarifications - asking the players to read the entire spell/feature/rule aloud. I'm sure he just does this to make the game go faster (and probably because he got used to checking his players' work during the Orion episodes), but it honestly seems to me like the best way not just to handle individual clarifications, but also for players to learn the game better.

[@Pumpky_the_kobold]

I swear the Segway to the sponsor are getting easier and easier to see coming, and yet, they're getting smoother and smoother

[@Littlewh0]

I reasonably often will literally tell my players, "In a non-precident setting way, I'll allow this" when I can't remember the rule precisely and don't want to break the moment doing research

[@farrex0]

I have spent years consuming DnD content, I have read all the books, now all subclasses and spent days reading all feats, spells etc. I have played more than ten characters. And I am known amongst my group of friends as the one that knows almost everything about the game in memory.... I once played an undead warlock, which I picked the spell Witchbolt, I read the description and said "Hey that spell is amazing! specially for a warlock with he upcasting feature. It is like a better moonbeam." So I was using it, and all was good while I was using level 1 spell slots.... When i finally got my second leveled slot, I cast witchbolt, and was so happy to roll 2d12. Then the next turn I said, I reapply witchbolt and went to roll 2d12 again, just for my DM to ask "what are you doing?". Me: "I am rolling the damage" The DM says "Yeah, but it is only 1d12, not 2d12" My whole world shattered. I thought I would be rolling an extra 1d12 per level each turn, when the extra dice is rolled only once. I misread the spell, made a terrible choice due to my misreading. Using my action, just to roll 1d12 per turn is terrible damage, I am better off using eldritch blast. I asked the DM if I could change my spell, because rules as written witchbolt simply sucks. But he didn't allow it, I had to wait till a level up, to change my spell. So even someone with as much experience as I have, can mess up things, it is normal.

[@lukesandadordoceu4835]

I love that oast clip from liam, just the simplest explanation of how things work. Also, the moment you mentioned about using actions for bonus actions is from late c2, Ashley wanted to rage as well as use the zealot barb's zealous presence , but Taliesin said she could use her action for one of them. Matt then Corrected him and said "That's from Pathfinder"

[@stephaniezibell4976]

Um actually, Wil Wheaton played DnD Next at PAX Prime, which was the 5e playtest. Whew, got that out of my system, loved the video!

[@darcybhaiwala7057]

Legit the ONLY reason I started playing D&D is that CR proved to me that I didn't need to be an expert to start playing, I could just have fun with characters and trust the GM. And fortunately for the campaigns I played at that was totally fine and expected And then, when I had the time and energy and boredom to do so, I fell in love with the official lore and started min-maxxing and cared about researching spells and artifacts The average person's brain is filled with enough trash from the real world. If they don't have the capacity to do tons of TTRPG homework but still make the time to come to the game, pay attention to the GM and other players, and make an effort to keep track of what they have while in game, gosh, that's a blessing in itself

[@magnumx635]

The "read your spell to me" is something I do a lot at my table. I have a couple dyslexic players so misreads are common and I find even if I am going to rule against a spell use it is more fair that everyone at the table hears about it together so when I give my ruling they can voice if they think it's a fair reading. I think Matt being so strict with spells was a real mistake, it can be funny, I think it made for some memorable moments but probably not for reasons worth preserving. I will confess that in the first campaign I remember getting a bit irritated with Marisha's spell use though. My problem wasn't so much that she didn't read them but usually more about what happened after. It was a mistake for Matt to let her waste high level spells slots to make mistakes like he did but I found the amount of push-back or general irritability from her afterwards to be what rubbed me wrong. I've had a player like that and while I tried to give him a bit more warning ahead of time on stuff so he wouldn't waste resources it was the lingering complaints and comments that get on my nerves. I think one of the reasons it stuck out more with her than for other players is after Liam misunderstood sneak attack for the 14th time and matt corrected him that would be the end but Marisha would usually fight longer or make a few irritated comments and bring the mood down more. At least that was my memory of it. That said I kind of loved narratively how Kyleth was either insanely useful or occasionally harmful with her spells. Her making Vax drop his daggers or the cloud thing were great character moments and I wish the animated show included them honestly. I feel like animated Kyleth is either unconfident or overpowered alternatingly and having a few moments of her godlike power misfire or be used in a well intentioned but ultimately negative way would fit in naturally with the humor and really sell why she struggles with trusting herself.

[@RonPower]

What I find more fascinating is that Matt is able to catch them on these relatively small things most of the time. I would call myself a very competent DM, but because of the different systems and editions I have run, I often get them confused and mix-up things. I rely on my players knowing their spells perhaps better than I do.

[@DaSkwire]

I'd like to echo Mike's sentiment the actual play encourages people to start playing. The podcast that he used to do (Friday Night Quests) plus Critical Role got me playing Pathfinder at my wargames club. It didn't matter that it was a different system, I now had a mental template of how to play this sort of game. I started playing Call of Cthulhu because of the How We Roll podcast. I've been tempted to play other systems because of the Glass Cannon Network. What draws me to all of these is not that they get all of the rules correct all of the time, but rather they allow the rolls to develop the story, what I call "Narrative Dice."

[@tko_5]

I think it's a Dnd thing. I've played some other systems where they make spell casting pretty fun and you know exactly what the spells do. I still forget what some spells do in the moment in the heat of the battle. It's a lot to remember sometimes when you have a lot going on in your life as well and people need to remember that we're human and the people on screen are too.