Does World of Warcraft Need to be Saved?

Make sure to check out Xaryu, the creator of the original video!
video: • Can WoW be Saved?
channel: / @xaryu
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Hey guys! Recently on stream I decided to react to a recent Xaryu video, "Can WoW Be Saved?" and had some inputs on what my thoughts are on this topic. It's kind of been the hot topic of the WoW community recently, and this is kind of my way of throwing the hat into the ring. Big cudos to Xaryu for the original video, it was great.
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#maximum​​ #liquidmaximum #thewarwithin

[@rageman2247]

Here for Fronk's Paycheck

[@Torell90]

Lets go Fronk!

[@Solaxer]

Bro where is Fronk

[@wowkaz4539]

I m over 60, semi retired and out of a very competitive work environment. Coming back to the game during the pandemic asa way to spend time with my grand daughter online, i found a a way to be in some sort of challenging environment filling my need to … get better with addon and wa and whatever i needed to do to keep up with my peanut✌🏻👴🏻

[@Barkdoggz-xk3vv]

Addons have ruined the game. This guy does not understand that FFXIV does the addons for the gamers. He touts “the quality of life addons” - yea, FFXIV has them and Blizzard is too lazy to officially implement them. His true defense of addons is because, in various ways, he makes money through using them. Anyone advocating for addons at this point is just blind to the fact other games do this natively. It’s a side effect of living under the WoWrock

[@dmsephiroth]

@@Barkdoggz-xk3vv I think so too.

[@locre08]

@@Barkdoggz-xk3vv This game is trash and unplayable without addons, Since 2004 Blizzard proves they are trash at doing UIs. Modding communities are carrying this game since Alpha. Blizzard is lazy you are right, also they are trash. So I preffer that addons are made by passionate modders not a souless company. If you dont like How Blizzard is developing wow currently what make you think you will like Blizzard addons? You trust Blizzard? I dont think so.

[@Barkdoggz-xk3vv]

@@locre08 you cannot sue “modding communities” in a court of law. And since most of the “modding community” is also your “open software, pirate everything, emulate the universe” hackers who think it’s YOUR FAULT they steal from you (if you leave your door open, they feel they have the right to do so). When you download addons, you open the door and release Blizzard from any binding liability whatsoever for what the game may do with your info, or to your computer rig. P.S. World First guilds and their associates make the addons, and they take home World First. The true Payoff is every player adheres to this method and Blizzard is free to code as crap game as they want with 0 risk. Hint hint, pun intended, this is “Blizzard’s ‘Method’ “. Method keeps producing addons, that keep producing World Firsts, and Blizzard keeps their immunity from lawsuits.

[@endocry]

@@locre08if you hate WoW so much why are you spending your finite amount of time and energy watching WoW videos and discussing it?

[@sarahparrish7206]

This is such an interesting conversation to me. I'm a zoomer (older, 23) but I've been playing since Wrath because my parents got me into the game. I had my own wave of 15-year-old no-lifing in Legion when I was in high school and played for hours every night, and then once I got into college I stopped playing as much and quit during season 2 of Shadowlands. Got back into the game during Dragonflight and now I'm raiding again and going back to experience legacy content I missed now that I'm almost graduated from college. As much as I would love to be in a guild of people my age (my guild is all 40s, 50s stereotypical wow players and friends of my dad) I also have my own negative preconceived stereotypes of people younger than me (16-19y/o) that drive me away from wanting to play with them. It's a complex topic, but I've been enjoying wrath classic and retail both. I might get into SoD as well whenever my guild decides to break for the rest of the expac.

[@ZuhexEntertainment]

I lived this word by word until "taking a break when college started" (am 22). I decided to go for r1 R-IO on Shadowlands s2 and s3 for Demo-locks. After that phase I stopped playing all together. It's def a harder task to balance WoW-ing with college/work life, but I wouldnt say its the reason I quit. It was def added onto the reasoning in my mind at the time, but in hindsight, I think it goes deeper than that. I believe what drove me off the game was a combination of unhappiness with decisions taken with my spec + the dwindling playerbase. It def also has to do with age and the losing of the "mystique" of WoW. When you're young, the world truly does seem never-ending.

[@dustybookshelves2948]

It's really cool to imagine the experience of someone's no-life teen game being Legion. I started gaming in the 80s & I've enjoyed many, but none more than that era of WoW. Since you seem extremely reasonable, something to consider that took me a long time to realize: Every age group has a norm, and also has outliers (b/c humans needed to survive if conditions changed suddenly & the norm was disadvantageous.) There are always people a bit younger than us who are more dispositionally similar to us + older groups, and they can feel very isolated when a gen gap is as big as Y to Z has turned out to be. So I try to give younger players more of a chance than my knee-jerk instinct would dictate.

[@ZuhexEntertainment]

I def am pro "giving youngers ppl a chance" in WoW. I was ALWAYS the youngest on all my guilds and it was always hard to find one willing to take me due to my age. But, not to toot my own horn too much, there are some who are 100% more mature then others and age will never define it totally. To me its extremely wild to think ppl had been playing WoW for long before I got my hands on it during Wrath as an 8 yo lol.... But cheers, you seem like a very cool and geniune guy!@@dustybookshelves2948

[@dracotoy]

Im the youngest in my guild at 24, i get ya. Never had a no life phase for wow though. My highschool no life was seige

[@aimbeezle]

yea i just turned 21 and i mythic raid i feel like everybody is older than me and i wish there was a younger playerbase to take up the mantle but u just dont see it anymore

[@gamerbreesus5513]

the voice crack "I beat jesus!" needs to be a sub sound holy shit

[@NBCatch22]

Followed by micheal jackson Beat it

[@zebzgame]

The thing thats killing WoW is peoples Nostalgia. Us boomers in our 30s+ remember those good old days of logging on with our friends, guild chat is booming, everyone's wanting to go out into this unknown world full of mystery and discovery, its the whole reason we got Classic back was that people wanted those memories again. Sure, people got that kick of nostalgia for a few days but overtime people realised that times have changed, we've changed, WoW has changed. Also most people that quit WoW, quit because they no longer had a bunch of friends to play with anymore, people nowadays are so antisocial in mmo's its insane, its like they don't want to interact with people but they take comfort seeing other run around the world so they don't feel alone. Make new friends, talk to people and form new memories in games rather than wishing for the good old days.

[@libertariansasquatch]

Tettles said something that stuck with me, the people that don’t play wow anymore but still talk about it, it’s less about the game and more about how their life use to be back then. It’s true I don’t have the same amount of time to play, because of my job and kids. But it’s made me a better player, because of my limited time, i now play the game efficiently.

[@Zoocsgo]

I mean classic came out and people returned in droves because it's a better version of WoW. I'd still play it if blizzard didn't fucked up with bots, server transfers and microtransactions.

[@radlander]

@@Zoocsgo "Classic is the better version of WoW. Also, I don't play it." every fucking time lol

[@zaccole187]

⁠@@Zoocsgoyou’re upset they charge you for server transfers? Also micro transactions? You’re acting like you have to buy gems to be stronger

[@zaccole187]

⁠@@Zoocsgoyou’re upset they charge you for server transfers? Also micro transactions? You’re acting like you have to buy gems to be stronger

[@anon12549]

This same thing existed in everquest, the game before wow. This sentiment is very cyclical and normal. People say it was covid that drove wow Classic, but sub numbers have never recovered to the heights before Cata. I think this is cope for the game being poorly designed for both crowds. They need to go the runescape route and just develop 2 separate games for two different crowds. People are sick of being a side project and retail is sick of not being listened to.

[@Theparadoxd7]

Max absolutely spitting facts at 47:30 about world quests. What was the world quests instead of going and logging off you'd go do for the quick gold? The fly here kill 1 mob. What are the events people do in the pre-expansion event? Fly here kill 1 mob. We've made it very VERY clear, yet they decided "hmmm yes people like classic lets make all quests 3x as long with multiple stages" - Nobody liked this. This is what I was talking about with the previous post about classic bleeding into retail and vice versa and it doesn't work. People want their Vanilla in one place and their Mint Choc Chip in the other.

[@BradPower]

I'm giving Xaryu the benefit of the doubt, given his age but I doubt he knows many older gamers at all. The reason I bring up age is something I've watched play out for several decades in gaming (I'll be 50 in a couple of months). Where you're "at" in your life influences your perspective. When you're younger, you're usually go go go. Move on to the next thing, the next shiny. You're trying to do everything like your life is going to end tomorrow. However, as you reach the later years in life, you actually have more time, not less. You make more time, not less. A lot of gamers I know that have been gaming as long as I have (43 years now). They're 50-90 years old. We older gamers seem to make more time for gaming. It's a comfort thing. It's a fun thing. We're not in a rush for any reason, especially in life. We're chilling. We're having fun. And we value that most of all.

[@deckofcardboard]

Yeah, but how do you make time? You understand where you're putting it. Maybe you understand perfectly well when you're "wasting" time (and you're fine with a bit of that in moderation, because you know that all video games are really a waste of time. Only the experience matters.), but maybe other times you look at something that's relatively more of a waste and decide you want something that's not going to treat your time like an investment in a ponzi scheme.

[@dwoodward931]

I think MMO's back in the 2000's were a big deal because of the multiplayer aspect of it. Sounds weird saying that today when 50% or more of the games people play are online multiplayer.. but it was a big deal back in the day. I was a kid back then and the whole appeal was being in a world (server) populated by other players. I guess my point is the unique-ness of that multiplayer aspect is diluted and not as important/special these days since most games have this included.

[@Dalzedur]

Kinda, players of late 90s, early 2000s were happy to be online and engage with other players. People one interacts with these days online... noooot as much. If we venture one step even forwards, we'd notice that there is more of a toxic culture where the thing to go for is to mimic the snarky comments of influencers and viral videos - there are people out there who are just itching for their chance to be mean for the sake of being mean.

[@insanity2929]

well getting into the game wasnt as hard and was enjoyable Its a snoozefest leveling on retail atm

[@BrodyCanuck]

Thats a big factor but I also think another big factor is there hasn't been any new good MMOs in a long time. Id like to see what would happen if a new one that is actually good released and captured all the current MMO players that are spread out across the many old MMOs, as well as new players that havent played one before. It'd have to be modernized for sure, maybe not even have levels...some other form of progression.

[@Giggles4692]

It’s funny how the only people that disagree with Asmongold are people that did not understand the original point. -Every class needs to have less than 10 rotational buttons. -40 mans super easy raids would be epic and create these big social events that made WoW popular in the first place -removing all combat add-ons while making combat easier would make the game better.

[@andrewmiller5690]

I'm a 46 year old dude who has been playing since 2008. I have a 13 year old daughter interested in starting the game in retail. It's been my observation of her gameplay experience so far at low levels that the game is not very coherently presented anymore as a leveling experience for new players, both in terms of story presentation and as a means of teaching new players how to play. This serves as a huge deterrent for attracting new players. I think the people who've come back to the game to play on classic servers, with comparatively less narrative-driven progression and just a much larger amount of grinding to get through the leveling experience have a point. I don't know how you could remarry that sort of experience with what retail is now. I do think that a true WoW 2 would attract an enormous number of people back to the game, and could provide an engrossing, time-consuming leveling experience with the end-game activities that veteran players have enjoyed for years. I don't think people leaving behind their collections would be that big a deal, ultimately. There would be new stuff! The old servers would still be up, where all that stuff still is! But there would be a whole new, much better balanced game. Blizzard would need to step down from their treadmill now though and devote resources and time to building it correctly. And maybe that's what they're finding for themselves with mapping out the next three expansions so far in advance. I really hope so. No one in the industry can do this game better than they can.

[@фанатКуплинова-ь1е]

I wish more people tried to introduce brand new players to retail WoW to see this for themselves.

[@intenzityd3181]

The golden age of PC games is over, these huge corporations are not capable of producing great games. It seems really sad to me when I see fellow older gamers unable to let go. The people who made the classic WoW expansions, who made D2, WC3, they are all gone and companies aren't hiring people like that anymore anyway. I do not want my kids going anywhere near these corporate IPs and I do my best to educate them as to evils of subversion and consumerism in modern gaming.

[@AkiRa22084]

Uh, my friend's 10 year old son had zero issues getting into the game. It's very beginner friendly with the new starting zone.

[@фанатКуплинова-ь1е]

@@AkiRa22084 Yeah, it's not like 10 year olds are fine just fishing for the rest of the game. What does new starting zone has to do with anything after that? The truth is that nothing before max level teaches you a thing about m+, raids or other things retail is known for. Even returning players have troubles understanding the current systems. They change them every season.

[@AkiRa22084]

@@фанатКуплинова-ь1е We were not talk about the rest of the game. Andrew was specifically talking about low level content. Pay attention. As for M+, everyone has to learn like we all did, reading Icyveins. Nothing odd with that. For every video game, if you want to be successful in the most difficult content, you have to invest effort into learning it.

[@chancemilliman1845]

Saying your fans look like someone who would sell magic cards is funniest thing u ever said

[@TheCoinFlip]

I love how this is like late 20s early 30 year old men talking as if they're 70 year old boomers 😭

[@dams8648]

First person I’ve seen that’s noticed it too lmao

[@pmudri]

Its funny to me people find weird how the gamers are older now. I mean of course theyre older when those same gamers were practically the pioneers of the gaming world. It's weird witnessing something for the first time, not being done by generations before us.

[@MegaCapo85]

@@pmudri Im sorry man but you can't fucking be serious and think people in the 2000s were "the pioneers of the gaming world" ?????

[@pmudri]

@@MegaCapo85 yeah, real gaming. not donkey kong and tetris.

[@pmudri]

@@MegaCapo85 i also said "practically" which means "kinda"

[@Hi_Speed]

Let's just make a WotLK-like single player game and fill it with AI bots that have read all of that era's chat logs.

[@AkiRa22084]

What a nightmare.

[@andrew-hf9fl]

This is honestly such a funny idea haha

[@andrew-hf9fl]

If you told me that 85% of the people in trade chat are ai with their code set to 'troll' mode...I wouldn't be surprised haha

[@NionzaNari]

In the most recent patch, they removed the Holy Priest ability that gave you 2 instant cast Holy Fires and instead made Chastise give you 2 instant cast Holy Fires. This is the kind of ability pruning I wish they did more of. I don't mind having a bunch of thematic utility buttons like Mind Vision or Shackle Undead, as long as the core rotation doesn't have a bunch of unnecessary complication. If the correct answer is always to press ability B instead of ability A whenever ability B is off cooldown, then you might as well just make B a passive that makes A more powerful with the same cooldown instead.

[@probro101]

They could go further, do the same thing for Circle of Healing and Prayer of Mending (Make Prayer of Mending instant every 10 seconds with a possible reduced mana cost). The button and ability bloat is unreal on retail.

[@AkiRa22084]

@@probro101 I'm so angry with asmon for causing the ability bloat.

[@OGRitchie]

​@@probro101 I am assuming you meant prayer of healing, not mending. I like the idea, honestly.

[@enigmabis.]

Asmon literally hates 40man raiding, he quit classic wow cus of it He only says so cus thats what he THINKS his chat wants, its the epitome of proof how out of touch asmon is with retail

[@Zulej112]

Aint no retail player want 40man its horrible

[@zizouwowist1641]

fax

[@wtff]

40man is the worst. You can't form a connection with that many people, which is why many people stay playing the game, and the door is constantly revolving with people coming and going. Absolutely miss me with that shit.

[@ihavealife002]

He quit because he just got fed loot and stands in the back not doing anything. It can't be fun. Just full bis almost instantly. Only a handful of the streamers actually played the fucking game.

[@aroix2667]

like its fine to hate asmongold and his views but why make up lies?

[@eonarose]

We appreciate Max’s dog background. Who needs wood and plants. Also I would legit stop playing if I had to go back to the base wow ui.

[@burkles4456]

Vanilla ui is not that bad! I’d love for you to post a screenshot of your UI so we could roast you or agree with you.

[@rambopally23]

yeah same i hate base ui. its so ugly and clunky

[@WelshGeologist]

Based, vanilla UI even with the updates is outdated with poor functionality

[@eonarose]

@@burkles4456 I tried but my comment got deleted because of the link.

[@squidzee_]

i feel you don't understand the usage of based@@WelshGeologist

[@avshipman]

Game is in the best state it’s been in the last decade. It’s already been “saved”. I do not understand the takes that Asmon and his Army of spergs have.

[@JaySharp1]

Asmon will not play games he is bad at. Warcraft got too complex for him so he hates the game now.

[@someguy3508]

How is the game good? 8 dungeons, 4 zones and 1 raid sounds good to you? Where's the innovation? There's been none since Legion. Only the professions in DF were good for a month.

[@MckenzieMischief]

​@@someguy3508Formula and innovation are not mutually exclusive.

[@someguy3508]

@@MckenzieMischief so where's the innovation

[@starmlb]

One thing that asmon is right about is that the game is just too hard at its peak. CE raiding right now is a second job for all your mid tier CE guilds. Scale it back so that it is more fun and less punishing will help. Tindral was an absolute nightmare took us 500 plus pulls to kill it. It should never be like that.

[@_Zir]

Xaryu getting that Vegeta hair.

[@brandonholcomb2919]

The most aggressive widows peak of all time

[@keats27]

needs a high and tight...

[@zenith_journey]

The least passive aggressive jealous KZbin commentors

[@_Zir]

@@zenith_journey it's a compliment. I'm bald.

[@Darkcranio]

Not even close but okay.

[@Neofoxie]

On the topic of addons there is also something that I think important to remind people : outside of making the base UI perfect taking time there is one big major point agains't doing so aswell, currently each player has its own and is used to it but imagine if now Blizzard just integrates something like elvui in the base game or whatever other big addon, a lot of people that were using other tool will be upset. What it is now is actually a strong base UI that you can play with yourself using different tools that suits you (I agree that there is still room for improvement for things such as debuffs icons) And I exclusively talk about UI addons here because 90% of them are used for it (aside things like RCloot, Method Raid Tools, Details or assignement WAs which are popular addons that does more than UI stuff, but I don't even want to know how the community would react if they were to come into the base game)

[@jsingle5]

It'd depend a lot on how blizzard chose to integrate any given 'popular' addon. As a whole, though, I think they're safer leaving extensive UI changes in the hands of addon-makers, if only because they have far, far more time to push out something comprehensive-and addon makers don't have to satisfy everyone playing the game.

[@locre08]

I preffer that addons are made by passionate modders not a souless company

[@fdajax5107]

Wow is fun change my mind

[@wtff]

I won't. Stay based 👑

[@toner01]

well shit. im beat

[@someguy3508]

the only part of WoW that is fun is clearing the raid. Also world pvp used to be fun in BFA. The rest is boring.

[@Homievegetable]

Yep wow is fun. It’s our own fault for playing it 10000h a week making it not fun

[@cronosdimitri4584]

wow is fun

[@RudTeljes]

Hey Max, I think the reward payoff thing is being misconstrued. I've found myself stopping playing games because the very act of learning to play the game comes across as a chore. Learning rotations that are 20 buttons, learning build orders in SC, learning and placing skills/engravings in Lost Ark, whatever the game, I feel the issue is that there is homework to just play the game the first time. I dont want to do "homework" I want to play a video game and have fun. I am a younger millennial.

[@12fulworld69]

The clutter thing, for me, is much more about abilities that kinda do the same. I don't mind having soothes and buffs and shackle undead, but with the new talents a mage can have cone, blaze, nova, aoe stun (pvp talent), and DB - all things that instant ccs close around your character. Displacement and Alter time, are kinda similar too, and I'd much rather have a better alter time than having that and temporal shield and other things that kinda just go on the same bind with a modifier.

[@taylorlukes4810]

MMOs are out because of the rapid development of computing systems. Games like Elden Ring, Final Fantasy 7 even games like Call of Duty have converted to big open expansive maps with Warzone. When WoW dropped in 2004 it had the benefit of Warcraft laying an incredible lore foundation with technological advances allowing it to be brought to life and it was mind blowing at the time. Every gaming genre is now getting that time to shine. Action RPGs are now benefiting from technology by letting their complex combat systems be encapsulated in beautiful landscapes. 1st person shooters are getting larger servers with less lag, more people. Fighting games have come to insane levels of precision and complexity. Eventually though everything plateaus waiting on the next advancement in technology to push it to that level. Until MMOs can step into that new light of "look what's never been possible before but now is" the traction will never grow. WoW is just an open world Warcraft 1-3 with AARPG elements. The World Soul Saga sounds great and I think more seamless multiple layer elements and delves are great for WoW and MMOs in general but until they can shatter technological ceilings they won't compete with the genres of games that can.

[@adityasihag4]

Wow deep commitment comes from folks who played warcraft 3, primarily. The nostalgia of playing that , n being offered that deep world in a 3D environment, with strength progression n world exploration, is what captivated people of the mid 2000s

[@ph0enixguard]

Regarding the sequel comment(s) at 18:22, I think we're going into WoW 4. Cata started WoW2 because it was a storyline after tying up the Lich King arc. BFA started WoW3 after temporarily tying up titans/sargeras/legion/illidan threads. BFA was a good independent story that had building blocks from WoW2, Shadowlands and Dragonflight are kind of intermission expansions or if you will the "beach episodes" like an anime filler. We can call it WoW3 just because naming conventions. In the same way, the Worldsoul Saga is WoW4.

[@MrAsmil]

I agree besides maybe legion started wow 3 for me and dragon flight started wow 4 already, or at least it was the "beach episode"

[@Proverb.]

I miss Wildstar, the combat and raiding and dungeons were insane, best group pve I've ever played. I actually played with you some before you were well known or I knew who you were, only way I even know was watching old vids for nostalgia and heard your voice years later, just doing the hardmode dungeons lol. I was in Zybak's guild since Beta raid testing with devs etc, was awesome.

[@dannyd806]

Has Asmon even played retail without getting carried? Has he pugged his way to over 3k? Has he done mythic raiding? I’m not a raider but I love the M+ scene. For someone who doesn’t have lots of game time it’s perfect for me. Hop on, smash a few keys and log off. The game is great!

[@melipnos]

Yeah in legion he was gamin, but that's quite a long time ago

[@Titan.Fox56]

After Legion he pretty much got carried in BFA and Shadowlands, but watch out for his Fanboys and simps, they will defend the shit out of him claiming "we're haters". Plus I'll say this I don't listen to 98% of the shit Asmon says the dude is ass backwards half the time. Like he wants 40 man raiding in Retail but in classic he hates it, he also doesn't realize not everybody has 40 simps and desperate attention seeking man children on hand and people even struggle to get 20 PEOPLE much less 40. So thats why I just ignore that dude.

[@THETYZEN2]

Addons in PvP is the biggest issue. PvE is whatever but in PvP they give you a clear and easy advantage of anyone else who doesn't have the addons you have

[@Tallen931]

I think tracking interrupts should be added to the base game and they should remove enemy cd tracking from arena. That basically fixes pvp 95% of the way.

[@onetime1337]

i think its way too overstated how impactful addons are in pvp,outside of few very very egregious cases where yes,its super mega stupid. for example,when people were tracking ENEMIES gcds in classic tbc so they could know when they couldnt kick etc,ok that is wayyy overboard. or the silly gladiatorlossa which shouts every ability,it is not even that good but it is outrageous,and makes the game just look stupid and probably hurt the consumers ears with all the noise garbage. or like when people track EVERY enemy cd,it just goes overboard and doesnt even help,but when you track a couple cds like trinket+drs and maybe handful of major cds,ofc that is big advantage. like i have no idea why dr tracking+pvp trinket tracking is not on the base ui at this point,those are the 2 main things people use addons for,basically cant play without them.

[@locre08]

You are right but if you are playing without addons you will never be pro enough to earn the rating were the advantage matters. At low ratings addons dont matter, addons dont give you skill. Skilled without addons>>>> Unskilled with addons.

[@scs-yt]

Me, 39 introduced the game to my wife last year who is 30 and we are together playing more than I ever did when I was young. We own our own business though and work from home. There are outliers to pretty much everything.

[@Wholenewcris]

Idk if it needs to be saved, all I know is that I played it for 11 years and gradually just stopped because it just wasn't fun anymore. For me personally. I hope others are still having fun.

[@Flec14]

Im curious, what caused you to lose that fun ?

[@BrodyCanuck]

@@Flec14 Probably because he played it for 11 years. There needs to be a new MMO...its rare for anyone to have enjoyment doing the same game for that long.

[@rovendagod]

@@BrodyCanuck I played it for 15 years now and feel the same as OP.. game has just evolved in a way that isn't fun. I still play heavily, but in Classic/Wrath/SoD, simply because I think the game is just better there. Preference thing is all.

[@BrodyCanuck]

@silv3rassassin I started playing WoW in 2006, so 18 years ago. To me, the game genuinely feels dated.

[@locre08]

@@rovendagod I mean 15 years is a win for Blizzard lol. Most marriages dont last half that much lmao

[@gomesiano]

I totally disagree with putting the blame on something. I stopped playing the game not for life reasons but because the gameplay gets stale and boring, there is no meaning to it besides those 2/3 first months of an expansion. And when I think of coming back, i think about all those addons i have to install and the 40 key binds i need to make again, just a waste of time. While I don't agree with the 40 man raid take, i agree that the classes have too much bloat to them. We don't need to make 10 class buttons but you can easily make a class with at least 20. And with the bloat removal they should also remove macros, because that also adds a lot of buttons. For the raids, I think we should only have 10 man raids with 2 difficulties. First a model between normal and heroic and the second would be mythic. Something like FF does. For the addons, for me there should only be addons for QoL. For example, moving stuff, showing info in a different way, i mean customizable UI stuff, no combat addons.

[@jukes7269]

WEll, how old are u? You dont have to work or a family? Usually you dont have 6 hours per day to play

[@gomesiano]

@@jukes7269 I work 8 hours a day, live alone and i also go to the gym. Is that good enough for you ?

[@jukes7269]

@@gomesiano It's not for me.. it's for you. I admire you, i have the same amount of time invested (gym/work + girlfriend/friends) and don't have time to play wow at it's fullest. But if you dont mind spend the rest of the day grinding its okey. Happy for u mate :)

[@ramtoes9062]

I just want to be able to gather and not feel like I’m wasting my time while surrounded by bots and the reminder that 20$ would get me more gold than days of gathering.

[@tomn8932]

The main reason young people don't play WoW is the sub fee and box price. Good luck convincing your friends to spend £40 and then £10 a month to a play a game - Apex, Valorant, CS2, LoL, Genshin or whatever are all free.

[@DelrenGaming]

Honestly, I think it's fine if WoW dies out...and maybe blizzard needs to take the IP towards a Solo RPG experience and leave the MMO behind. Imagine WoW lore but in a skyrim/eldenring/fallout kind of rpg, and maybe make a new MMO different IP or something along that lines.

[@marrin98]

I just want LE complicated talant trees for wow, so choose say 4 abil that u get that tree for so say fist of fury, make it cast faster, slow, stun when it, dmg inc, bigger area, make it explode, change it to cast 5 RSK, ur SCK at the same time, u cast it in a full 360, change dmg type to fire

[@James_Johnson79]

He is absolutely right. The problems "in game" for keeping people subscribed are far less than the sociological ones outside of the game. I feel like things that would make the game better are things like changing the guild finder to make it easier to find a guild whose schedule and skill level matches yours and things like group-pricing where you can get a reduced sub cost by having multiple accounts. Like WoW in general has absurd amounts of value for cost. If you want to play with your kids though now your sub goes from $15/mo to $30 or $45 or more. If they could drop that to $20 or $30/mo for 2 or 3 people together then it would be a lot better for families and even guilds.

[@shadycat8898]

WoW will never attract the little lads simply because it has a $15 subscription fee. Nothing more needs to be said. The other points in the vid are solid. Too many WoW veterans wanting the game to cure their knee pain and turn them 13 again. The early 2000s era doesn’t exist anymore and can’t, so why do people argue points as if changes made could recapture that time.

[@gregjross852]

So question, while I agree with what you’re saying isn’t that exactly why they made classic? Lmao

[@veppy4952]

@@gregjross852 And it turned out to be exactly what people didnt think it was. Quite literally rose tinted glasses, sure it had a massive launch, why else would they release it again. It quickly fell off causing TBC to basically die aside from a few servers. Wrath brought back a good chunk but that shit died once ulduar was released and on farm. People don't know what they want anymore since it was never about the game itself.

[@shadycat8898]

@@gregjross852 Classic was very necessary. It gave these people something closer to what they want, but it still drove the point home what they want literally CANT exist. Game options and player interests simply aren't the same even if the game itself replicates that time. Hence why SOD is so popular. Even the old dogs crave something fresh.

[@Vontremort]

@@veppy4952 Classic launch was extremely fun, as was SOD. Just because someone *only* plays a game for a few months or so doesn't mean it was a failure, that's ridiculous. Classic has a few hundred hours of good leveling gameplay that is better than any other MMO modern or otherwise, and then a tedious raid grind stapled onto the end of it to keep the sweats around longer. So you're going to see an ideal player pattern here, of a metric fuckton of initial players, which sharply goes down as people finish their fill and move on. This is what a successful RPG or action/adventure genre game should look like.

[@veppy4952]

@@Vontremort Please point to where I ever said classic was a failure or wasnt fun lol. Im going purely based off player retention. People went down memory lane, realized the game itself isnt what they remembered and left. And yeah no shit some people stayed obviously but people are slowly realizing the game isnt why they loved that era so fondly. Ask anyone before wrath came out and ask them what their favorite raids were, they'd all say ulduar or ICC, now ask the people that played it during wrath classic and im sure they'd have a different opinion.

[@Dac85]

Is there anything more Max than saying "im gonna let this guy spit for a bit" then stop a few sentences later and talk for another five minutes? God bless.

[@scarykids7840]

Right on point Xar, i enjoy the downtimes in retail wow. its times for me to go back and work on old achievements like Lore Master. I can do about a zone and hour, but i read the old quests because i really love this game. It ends up taking 2-3 hours per zone reading the quests. This will be my 19th year playing wow. Only really not playing Warlords. I am not just a wow player though. I play games like Helldiver 2, Baldurs Gate 3, It Takes Two (with the wife), Gears of war(also with the wife) and a bunch of others. But all those games make me realise how much WoW effected me growing up, and still feel the same excitement for expansions. I feel like a kid when i hear things like "Hero Talents" because i have over 5k hours on PoE and all I see is wow is getting Ascendancy's. The thing thats missing in all of this is talking to strangers over the internet and making friends and completing common tasks when it was all a new experience. It is still fun, but its not like tasting ice cream for the first time again. I have accepted that and I am personally lucky that 2 of my friends from 19 years ago still play with me today.. one on retail and another on SoD.

[@Excentrix54]

I play classic sod only because I tried to get back into retail but so much has changed and there is so much content it was overwhelming like starting from scratch. Yes I'm old but even though I don't play retail I still follow RWF and what not. I like people like max and xaryu because they don't just post a bunch of negative shit for clicks. Good video by xaryu and react by max.

[@omen_rs]

I play both versions, when I get burnt out of Classic I’ll go to retail and I have a totally different but still fun experience. They’re 2 completely different games that need 2 different expectations. Both are great. Change my mind.

[@thedeadrussianz]

We talk a lot about old players quitting, but not enough about new players starting. They need curseforge and all the important addons. Then like an hour to organize their UI, keybinds, spell bars, etc. On top of all that, you have to buy the xpac and pay $15 a month. The barrier to entry is a mountain. Its not like normie games where i just log on free and que up. You cant just casually bring a friend on to run a normal raid or some basic 11/18s to have them try the game.

[@MrDevilRays]

The big issue I see with people like Asmon is that they want current retail to be Classic, but again. One one hand, this might appeal to the people that quit the game and let everyone know their opinions that the game now is bad. On the other hand, what about the millions of people actually playing Retail? Do most if the people want the main game to be oversimplified in the way Classic was? I reckon a lot of the people playing Retail like that there is some complexity in the different classes (some more than others, of course). I tried classic and SOD for a bit and the play style of those games are pretty boring to me. Also, and maybe I'm wrong here, I feel like the classic leveling style would almost certainly not keep younger audiences interested in the game to keep playing to the more fast pace of end-game content, however fast it would be.

[@Dalzedur]

Everything is too... accessible online. There are no real secrets nowadays in games - they get datamined day 1, and shared on youtube. Season of discovery tried to combat this, but even then the guides went up, people shared and carried low level players for the good runes. People don't generally spend time and effort theorycrafting on their own, there are bis guides, optimal rotations, meta knowledge etc. If we could get an AI to govern personalized questing content for players and have that somehow work well, there would be a lot of value in that, as there would be no guides online for them, replayability would go up and so on. Ease of access has nuked the 'feel rewarded for your own hard work' that games relied on, when the information is easily obtainable, what it leaves for 'hard work' is just grinding for a low drop chance, or repetition for enough special currency... maybe.

[@Theparadoxd7]

The obvious answer that they don't seem to see is keep classic slow and rewarding over time and let retail be the "bing bing wahoo" as Bellular would say. Instead they are trying to apply the slow aspects of classic to retail and the fast elements of retail to classic and both are losing their identity and removing the ability for people to just choose what they want. Or they could try one and swap to the other just to see if they like it more.

[@Zoidstiz09]

Removing add-on is completly possible. They did it when they made the games and designed raid fights with out the idea of Add-ons, and game play that didn't not revolved around add-on. Other games have it to. The issue is people are accustomed to it, and it a layer of complexity that is completely not nessarry. Its knowledge and skill that is only applied to in WoW. When you are smart you find complex issue to not be a burden. When you are not smart these complex issues because a barrier of entry and causes you not to wait to put in the effort just to enjoy a game, you will just play another game, or be involved with that part of the game. You need Add-on for PVP, Mythic Plus and Raiding. Example FF14, you can raid with out Add-ons, you just need to read a guide or have a good raid leader tell you how to do a Boss. You want to play League, and you need to install 15 add-on just to play, you will go play DOTA 2 because the games doesn't required that extra work, that knowledge.

[@joshewert13]

Can't factor out the way current media is also handling their viewers as well. Everything is a quick fix, designed to hook kids to consume content like never before. We recently started playing kids shows from the 80's and 90's and see our son choosing to play with his toys. He's become much happier playing outside, and being active. Quite the contrast of the current shows today, like Coco melon. He used to breakdown every time we had to turn it off, now it's hardly an issue. The sad state we're in is a lot of young kids growing up, especially with tiktok (I'm hooked on Instagram shorts) so i get the damage done. When ever i get too deep into the shorts, i can feel my patience disappearing with anything, i can hardly get through a tv show without getting bored. Crazy.

[@drakedbz]

The reason I find addons to be an important part of this game is that the community can solve nearly any UI problem the game has. Every game is going to have issues with its UI, but Blizzard is notorious for having a weak UI. Diablo is another example of this. People used an external program to add an overlay to D3 because the default UI just doesn't give enough information. Certainly you can play without it, but you're at a severe disadvantage. Unfortunately, using it was technically against TOS (mostly due to the maphacks, knowing where mobs are ahead of time, etc), but Blizz basically never banned for it, I think in part because they knew the community was just better at creating a UI than they were (also by the end of D3, there were literally like 3 devs working on the game lol).

[@damax1862]

Yup, as long as buffs aren't easily trackable in the default UI addons are a necessity. Try playing an OL rogue without good trackers for your stealth windows. You're going to put Between the Eyes incorrectly on cd way more often.

[@ZKrinny]

I think gaming companies need to get over their egos and start taking people who mod their game in a way that’s positive and most of the community uses and just pay them to have their work get put into the actual game

[@nickgman3592]

I agree but im torn because ive seen a bunch of weak auras and others that tell you what button to hit and when. You become a robot just pressing buttons the a.i tells you to with almost no thought. So you have a clear advantage over someone without those addons. Also the screen looks like crap with all that.

[@SzilardEnyedi]

Let's celebrate QoL addons with an unwelcome side effect (messing up fight design) only because the developer can't figure out how to make a decent UI? Man...instead of finding third party solutions we should rather demand Blizz to fix the UI and stop designing things that require the tracking of 8 different buffs/debuffs.

[@locre08]

@@SzilardEnyedi I preffer that addons are made by passionate modders not a souless company. Since 2004 they cant figure it out and never will, maybe if they sell wow to another company we can get a better UI

[@ilevitatecs2]

considering it's dead, 40 ft under the ground, if you want to consider it alive at any point in the future...then yes, it "needs" to be saved.

[@Sargaxiist2022]

I'm 32. I used to sell MTG cards and i still play osrs. Fuckin called out. Goddamnit Max

[@mortaljorma69]

I have played(mostly pve) since the burning crusade and i just love the state where this game is right now.

[@jakejimenez7048]

The problem with addons is that it's a barrier to entry for new players. Requiring people to use third party, out of game tools in order to have good QoL features and be able to do content is just not good. Deleting addons at this point isn't really viable either so I think Blizzard needs to integrate an addon installer directly into the client with a tutorial explaining what they are and why someone would want them. The same with guides. Requiring a new player to go to Wowhead to read their class guide, join their class discord, and download a third party app to download additional features is just not appealing to a new player at all.

[@smr_nick265]

In which way are addons a barrier? I give you partly right, but lets be honest, the most new wow player joined the game because of old wow players, which can and should introduce them. And there are not many addons needed tbh. I only play with raider io, weak auras, details and dbm, the rest is classic wow interface and i love it how it is. Imo the new player barrier is the way how they went into the game with old content. They just get known to the actual content

[@FreggeLock]

I would love to see a community event where high end raiders would run on a vanilla setup with no addons. I would expect to see some lower performance then, but I believe they would still do amazing job.

[@фанатКуплинова-ь1е]

@@smr_nick265 Even with proper introduction and extensive help it doesn't alleviate the stupidity of using 3rd party tools in order to recreate a plane's control panel in order to play a game. Are you excited to learn how to fly a plane or how to install and set up Arch Linux? Yeah, me neither.

[@AkiRa22084]

@@smr_nick265 When I started back in 2005, my friend gave me a DVD with his addons. It was so much fun to set them up. I became an addon developer because of that, since I never experienced that much freedom in a game before.

[@smr_nick265]

@@фанатКуплинова-ь1е lets be honest, if i would have the cance, why not?

[@algiux112]

OG Classic drop off was steep af too. A lot of people were indeed "you think you do"

[@whatthe6871]

mmm about the "accessibility addons" part of the discussion when it comes to addons. I think addons are a reason blizzard hasn't meaningfully attempted to update their game UI and engine (until recently of course). This game is almost 20 years old, and to be quite frank I think most of the QoL or Accessibility addons are things Blizzard SHOULD have attempted to put in the game in some way shape or form. So I don't really like people propping their argument for addons with that leg. Those are things that they should have changed or added a very long time ago imo. Now as for the rest of the addons. Honestly I think community wise I think you are kind of expected to have them so I can see the argument for not having them in the game. That being said, Blizz is more likely to make a WoW 2 with a new interface and engine than to turn of the addon api (outside of some crazy hack/exploit).

[@locre08]

I preffer that addons are made by passionate modders not a souless company. Blizzard should of course but we will get a worse solution that the ones that our modding community can offer us

[@robbied4766]

You don't have the developers capable of the development requirements, and still won't. Even early WoW was nothing compared to the depth required in the 90s.

[@blizzardcorki6217]

Just want to make sure this point gets out there: Asmon (along with many others) is of the opinion that “all addons” being removed doesn’t mean no QoL benefits… it means Blizzard should make those QoL things PART OF THE GAME. Blizzard can absolutely do what the addons do and then getting rid of all addons is fine bc we keep the good and get rid of the bad Is there not a way to take these addons and implement them directly in baseline WoW? Like, it exists as an addon, the code is there. Why would it require some insane effort from Blizzard?

[@scrapppy96]

for all the people defending addons, you guys realize that the whole point of an mmorpg is the journey right? Its not that people want to grind for a year to unlock something. you're only going to make that grind if you are enjoying the time you spend while grinding. When you have 10-25 zombies in a raid standing in fire because the addon that tells them what to do is bugged that week. Nobody wants to be apart of that. Its way more rewarding to have trouble on a boss, figure out what your doing wrong, overcome the problem, beat the boss. Even if you don't get a piece of loot its still rewarding to kill the boss. Its rewarding because you worked together with a group of people to overcome a challenge. Now you got people googling every piece of gear, every class, spec, talent point... how many of you have an arrow pointing in the direction you have to travel? nobody actually plays the game. nobodys working together. how many of you complain about the amount of bots in the game? yet have those same robots playing the game for you... I promise you, WoW is a fun game when you aren't copy/pasting your entire character and experience.

[@SomeGuyFromUtah]

I just recently started retail for the first time in years after really enjoying SoD... this seems to be a great expansion for someone who is bothered by skipping story content because the dragon story is kinda it's own thing. Once I'm caught up on drafonflight, I'll go back through older content to get caught up on the more horde/alliance centric story stuff before the next expansion. Retail honestly feels like a completely different game than Last time I played much, which was only maybe 3 expansions ago. My friends are unlikely to follow, though, because the retail pvp just isn't fun for them.

[@Pleureuse-fc5zb]

Wildstar mentioned !!!

[@Etersarte]

I'm so obviously living on memories from a younger me but I too get so nostalgic everytime that fucking goated game gets brought up.

[@ALC0LITE]

Still hurts!

[@fatiguejras]

Dopamine and instant gratification one way, but did everybody forget how cool the social aspect used to be in this game? In retail you have to do everything fast, and the world just zooms around you. In classic you were meant to slow down and smell the flowers. Is it because of the social media?

[@SHSscorp82]

14:15 The only difference in free time as an adult versus when we were kids mostly is where we spend our time. Instead of being in a class room for roughly 7 hours, we’re at work for roughly 9. But as kids we also had homework so balancing out school versus work is not all that different. 16:47 He’s also assuming that people who started playing 15 years ago are the only ones who still play. Is there not at least some level of turnover in the game ie older players quitting & newer players just starting?

[@ryanzz1357]

Imagine if they made every expansion’s best patch available at all time you get to choose to play whatever expansion anytime

[@Telam]

@Maximum about Thorgast: there was part of tower where you where going just to farm stuff, but there was also a mode where there where 10 layers, with the last one quite challanging, and rewarding mount usable in maw. When I've done this solo I was over the moon and I had fun through whole process. But, I'm a classic rouglike player(ADOM baby), so I get it it was not for everyone. And I agree reception was bad, but I would love to see something similar coming back, just as a challange mode, not a weekly farm.

[@zirene5237]

8:46 I DO sell Magic: the Gathering cards... Got me.

[@HarkinsX]

10 man mythic, and the removal of raid addons would be pretty dang cool.

[@davidclaveau4419]

i mean all addons who collect DATA should be removed, only UI change should be admit...

[@riddert4966]

Removal of raid addons would also mean that blizzard needs to improve their boss design

[@MrRyan94]

10 man Mythic would be nice Might be a boomer take but not having to try as hard to form a successful raiding guild would be great

[@Journeying.]

Love you all :)

[@Askfornate]

March 30th, 2024. I might take a full day off work like when Sunwell was released April 8th, 2008.

[@brycehudgins5064]

i'm 23 and love these games, that being said I also grew up on WoW and Swtor

[@lebduch6143]

Im actually year 2004 and play the game for 4 years now and am extremely happy with the game the whole time. The problem it may have is that everything is heavily advertised and free thats why young people play it and thats why most younger people i know dont buy it from my view.

[@jackgoldstraw]

they need to switch to have separate classic/retail sub numbers, i know it will be impossible cause so many will play both. But i know from my classic guild that not many people at all played retail. The reason being they had limited time and classic was essentially free past the sub, whereas £40 for retail. Reality is, most arent playing both games, at least from the classic side. Im sure most people from retail probably do, or have, played both. But its not the same the other way around.

[@relow8650]

I’ve been playing for less than a year and I’m still a huge noob. WOW is in a great place for players that come back or long time players. Us new guys are so lost I’ve spent hours every time I play looking at addons , quest, guides it’s just tiring and you have to pay monthly for that?

[@Alan-zf4sk]

Max, I bring my MTG decks to me every time I go to Blizzcon. I would love to buy you a beer and play some EDH if you're ever down.

[@teywn]

They disable my roleplay addon I riot, also game is doing great right now, can't please everyone of course

[@derangedtaco3491]

The problem with WoW creators who are highly critical of the game and MMO field is.... they likely started playing MMO's with Wrath, Cata, or MoP. Those were pretty significant (good or bad) times during WoW's life cycle. Player numbers just aren't going to reach Wrath's peak. Not gonna happen. WoW could drop down to 500K subs and still be in the Top .01% of MMORPG's all-time. In the MMO field, those are very healthy numbers. Shit, Eve Online averages between 20-30K accounts (probably like 18-20K actual players)..... and is in a healthy state. Something absolutely devastating would have to happen to see WoW drop below 1M subs.

[@Vladfulify]

I'm almost 33, but I really don't like grind something for being equal in competition game(key, rbg,arena) . I got full time job, wife, other hobbies.

[@thehandle711]

Blizzard is finally realizing if they release an expansion with broken systems there is a large part of the player base that will play it for 1-3 months and then completely write off the rest of the expansion no matter how good it gets. No one wants to "catch back up" mid expansion especially with the example of M+. You coming back for the last patch and playing with people who have been running those same dungeons for 12-18 months is a miserable experience.

[@Askfornate]

Planetside 1 had the same issue. Greatest game in the 2003-2006. The player base aged. WoW has an advantage because nothing has replaced it.

[@painfullyavarage4316]

It’s weird. In some ways the game is the best it’s ever been. Class design is amazing with very few outliers, gear feels both easy enough to acquire and decently impactful, mandatory grinds are pretty much gone, etc. But also it feels like they are missing a few small things that would make the game so much better. Targeted vault gear acquisition, 10 man mythic releasing after hall of fame, m+ affix reworks, etc. all require small to medium time/resource investments but would massively improve the game. It’s hard to say wow isn’t in a great spot but it’s also hard to say the game isn’t wasting a lot of potential when it is so close to being so much better

[@Malavander]

Most people just want to consume entertainment that provides a novel experience. The ratio of people that commit to lifestyle games is probably a lot smaller than people that just get in early for the novel experience, get bored and move on to the next. Early WoW was its novel era. No amount of content or design twists will make it novel ENOUGH again to generate the sort of gravity well of popularity it had back then. It would require a fundamentally massive overhaul/update/reboot.

[@c0d3014]

fundamental problem is this... its no longer a game but a chore... i can no longer scratch my bals & talk on discord while i do raid boss... ask yourself what was more memorable? killing boss or the journey going there...

[@virtualb01]

Newer generations are the social media, instant gratification, dopamine addicted power patience and just all around a totally different mindset and ethic

[@lj1653]

they don't need to remove all the add-ons but they do need to make sure that we never again have a boss like Smolderon where all the abilities are red and the floor is red. or a boss where the best guilds in the world feel the need to use inky black potions just to help make things easier to see. how about we start there first.

[@Tallen931]

As long as we don't get to the FF14 type of graphics I am happy, it just takes away so much immersion. But yes better and clearer visual boss effects would be improve the game for everyone.

[@ihalia]

smolderon was not the problem honestly. Nymue on the other hand....

[@polowy9126]

I 100% agree that gaming genre's can be generational in 2004-2010 we saw MMO (WoW), Then from 2010-2013 we saw RTS (Starcraft 2), Then from 2013-2017 we saw MOBA (LoL) Then from 2018 onwards we saw battle royale's

[@toreole5831]

I would genuinely appreciate a world where you dont need weakauras to clear bosses. Where the game is just better at giving you the information and the reaction time to be able to figure it out and get it done

[@maxxvii2037]

If Wow needs saving then the whole MMO genre is beyond saving

[@FallenSun210]

No shot - Method, Limit, Echo, all these teams need addons and wouldn't be where they are without them.

[@daidracofosgate518]

I hate how everyone just looks at that subscriber chart and just makes the assessment that Dragonflight did some incredible rebound and has a good retention rate. You can extrapolate the trends before classic launched and it dictates that Classic and Season of Discovery is carrying the game.

[@ahsidodna3355]

it's very simple, young people don't want to be rewarded because they grinded, they want to be rewarded for their skills, seeing someone killing you just because they have better gear is so bad, they should be able to kill you because they are better

[@BirdmanG07]

I don’t do WQs often, just some random rep grinds, but I had more fun with them in DF than recent expansions.

[@Tyberes]

if you go on Curseforge right now a full half of the addons on the top 10 page are non-combat addons. Even then I think the core part MDT is just a convenience thing.

[@фанатКуплинова-ь1е]

Which still means base UI is not convenient

[@Uko980]

The only thing I think wow needs is to get whoever did the ret paladin rework this expansion and have them fix every other class. There are a lot of classes with a lot of bloat or clunk in their rotation like the crazy amount of short cds enh shaman has or stuff like only being able to aoe while standing in your dnd for dk.

[@csquared4538]

I'm not a retail hater at all, but I am classic player. I think it's probably good that retail and classic appeal to different audiences. Having said that, I do think retail could do better on barriers to entry. As someone who's played wow for the last 5 years, some classes still felt pretty overwhelming when I tried playing. The talent system is cool, but it's also a lot to take in as a new player. I played mage, and while I felt like I got the hang of frost a bit from leveling, jumping to arcane felt, honestly, overdesigned and complicated. Ultimately, if retail has an audience, and that audience wants the game to be complex, it doesn't make sense to change it to appeal to a different audience, alienating the players who actually play it.

[@snowballandpals]

Riot's MMO had the potentially to rival WoWs peak.. especially if they made WoW with a better can of paint and just improved upon it

[@furkeys114]

Damage Meters as well as m+/raid/pvp related addons and like Details/Recount/ certain WeakAuras/BigWigs/DBM/Plater/Gladius/OmniCDs etc should've been added and integrated somehow to the base game as they directly interfere with competitive integrity and group performance. Not telling blizz to copy paste DBM or Gladius into the base game, but create similar features to the base UI so that the gap between addon users and non-addons users wouldn't be that huge of a rift that it is right now, and it wouldn't force players to use those addons and they simply NEED to in order to the play game itself without feeling completely lost. TL;DR: Addons that could affect competitive integrity/endgame content difficulty for progression etc should've been removed and integrated into the base game somehow. QoL addons like bagnon, ElvUI, auctionator etc should stay as addons as they're not needed to play the game and they do not bring any "competitive advantage" to the game.

[@AnasAlami-u5k]

I'll give my take on this before watching the video, just to compare with your take. I don't think Retail needs to be saved. It serves its purpose: it's a good game for the giga competitive players, be it in PvE with infinitely scaling MM+ and race to world first raids, or in PvP, with very unforgiving damage and high complexity. It's also fun for casuals who just want to collect mounts and make pretty transmogs while feeling strong enough when doing open world content thanks to gear they get from world quests, events and reputations. Those people enjoy Retail, and that's awesome. I'm just not one of them. Some people get pleasure from doing very easy content with their friends and guildmates while having a much more slow paced and nostalgic experience, and those people are on SoD and Classic Era. Cataclysm Classic will come out soon, for everyone in between. No need to change Retail when there's other iterations of the game that provide a very different experience.

[@TrietHuynhMinh]

Guys, you are all missing the main point wh Zoomers don't play WOW. It's the Subsription model. They are kids, teenagers or even colleages students don't have the money to sub $20/month where other better more attractive games are free. They can buy a game, sure their Steams accounts are probably hundreds of games and they paid quite abit, but the idea of paying monthly for a game where they don't have disposable income is not gonna fly, Source: my friends's kids

[@DB-nc4lt]

My brain is to old for retail

[@lumingaming]

Or, hire, buyout the addon makers? Who said they have to start with nothing?

[@hobosnake1]

I don't think we should have add-ons beyond qol stuff like bags and a dps meter.

[@finkruse3819]

Retail Semi Mythic Player here, i would love to take out Combat addons. Bc right now it feels like i play the game on auto Pilot. WA for this Mechanic, Sound to tell me to step aside. If you want Hekili for rotation and yes hekili works good enough too get epic parses in DMG so you can also auto pilot this. So i would love better boss designs i dont need a weak aura for because i can see mechanics and understand it. Maybe bad comparison but i enjoy how FFXIV does there Ultimate encoutners. There a real challenge but a challenge you can come over meanwhile some wow bosses are just a pain in the ass if you dont get certain weakauras. Just imagine assigning Igira spears manually..... possible but a real pain in the ass