DOGVILLE (1) - arrogance; Grace and her father (VOSTF)

(spoiler alert)
Grace and her father in the car.
A question of arrogance and human taming.

[@angelito2144]

"You forgive others with excuses that you would never in the world permit for yourself". I saw this movie at the cinema in 2003, and at this point I had the complete feeling that James Caan had turned towards me to tell me that. This single sentence changed my life in many aspects. I can't count how many times since then I've remembered it when someone is malicious or negligent with me or others, and I can't count how many times I´ve repeated this to my sisters and my friends. "Don't do others what you don't want for yourself" is just one side of the coin. The other says "Don't permit others what you don't permit to yourself"

[@1chienandalou]

I know exactly what you mean. It was an eye opener for me too. And then I had my eyes opened a few more times since. And I come back to it and ask myself would I forgive myself if I has done this. Or “was their best good enough?”

[@bigtupa5613]

and thats why i kill everyone who wronged me (:

[@DrummerBoyJason]

Tarantino was right, if von Trier had written this for the stage he would have won a Pulitzer.

[@sjuninho1000]

When and where he say that ?

[@MamadNobari]

@@sjuninho1000 Look up "Quentin Tarantino's Favorite 20 Movies from 1992 to 2009" around 2:14

[@simplejacko]

"...but you must maintain your own standards. You owe them that, you owe them that!" Exactly.

[@Carmina2005]

As a social worker I have worked with many victims of whatever situation or crime you can imagine. Many times they themselves enabled said situations by tolerating and being "patient and understanding". They might not be to blame, but they did have responsibility - they owed to themselves and did not deliver. Victims can indeed be very arrogant. When I tell people that, they call me a victim-blamer, but those people are usually arrogant too.

[@mortenovergaard7397]

a lot of people make really bad excuses for their wrongdoings. truth is.. they just don't want to change.

[@Naampetra]

Covert narcissists like to use victimhood too

[@attyjosh]

Kidman was effortlessly brilliant in this.

[@travisbickle3835]

Yeah one of her best my perosnal favourite

[@attyjosh]

@travisbickle3835 I understood why it wasn't even campaigned for Best Actress cuz first, it's an experimental film that's so outside the comfort zone of the Academy and second, her bigger film Cold Mountain was the focus for her supposed 3rd Oscar nod. And speaking of CM, I just recently saw it again, and she wasn't bad at all as Ada Monroe. As a matter of fact, I very much prefer her performance than Hughes and Morton who are both supporting and even that of Keaton's. I guess coming from a fresh win for her very transformational turn in The Hours, she raised the bar for herself. But in CM, her portrayal is full of nuances and subtleties. I must admit 20 years ago I was underwhelmed, but now, I dare say she was brilliant as Ada.

[@jimmymeridian5174]

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

[@PoetryAddict8]

oh my fucking god this is me. I must be the most arrogant fuck on the planet. This movie made me realize... I am so grateful for this scene Can't even express

[@bluehealer81]

"You have this preconceived notion that nobody, listen, that nobody can't possibly attain the same high ethical standards as you, so you exonerate them. I can not think of anything more arrogant than that." That line hit me like a ton of bricks. I actually saved it to my computer and I look on it from time to time when I get my head too far up my own ass.

[@Naampetra]

Me too bro ❤

[@mirellalastar]

That's a cool conversation. So real. Especially from James Caan. Fathers do talk like that.

[@bluehealer81]

When I was growing up, when I was in my do-gooding youth phase, my father told me that if I really cared to dedicate my life to helping others all the time, then I could feel free to become like Woody Guthrie and follow some starving Okies around and bring attention to their plight, Woody Guthrie was happy doing it, he didn't mind dying penniless in an asylum to accomplish his goals in helping them and being unwashed and starving and sleeping in the dirt to do so. So, if that is what I really wanted to do, then I was free to do it at any time. I did grow up to be in a position to help others, I am proud to say that I have helped a tremendous number of people, but... I was also able to put my daughter through private school. Sometimes the hardest words are the ones we need to hear.

[@samjames5183]

This movie was incredible

[@creichling2638]

"Some things you gotta do yourself." I know not a better line in modern cinema.

[@chickenringNYC]

Caan is brilliant. Very realistic delivery

[@TheZairae]

This movie was great.

[@tetsuolionheart9611]

Next level dialogue.

[@bryndentully3450]

The father is more grounded in reality to see the things how they are 👍

[@S0kury0kud0]

I think this is a kind of twisted exchange between Jesus (Grace) and God (her father). She is against the harsh ideals expected of people by the likes of old norms (Old Testament), and advocates gentler standards for the people even though she has been treated horribly. Tom is Judas in this scheme. The similarities die there. Whereas Jesus canonically gave himself up and lowered God's standards (in a way), Grace does the opposite and imposes God's wrath - a somewhat misogynst conclusion.

[@misterx5115]

"misogynst"... You were doing well until you fell deeply in the common places. That kind of senseless reasonings, 8 years ago, opened the patht to nowadays stupidity

[@Balfour.]

I think he might have meant to say "misanthropic" conclusion

[@fluff975]

@@Balfour. yes. exactly. thats the perfect word to describe the whole film and von trier himself.

[@rawan3521]

Jesus should kill god , not his people, for people only follow the will of god .

[@mishynaofficial]

​@@fluff975his misanthropy is reasonable.

[@IridaKapaXaxas]

Δίκιο, δίκιο...και πάλι δίκιο Andy!!!!!!! Πάντα! :)

[@michellebenarbia690]

I unverstand but i feel Grace with all in me.

[@michellebenarbia690]

We are only human and not given the god clean Power to destroy. That is gods job alone. Unless you dont Respect the higher Power to pray for your enemies you are one of them ! Question: do you Want to become your enemie?

[@1chienandalou]

Well maybe you can think about it as an analogical movie. A lot of people have pointed out that Grace might represent Jesus and his father God. After all they have complete power over the destruction of dog Ville. This is not the only reading but certainly has been discussed. So in essence your comment is already part of the conversation in the movie.

[@mrbriscoe2001]

Thisis one of the most memorable scenes I've ever seen;a rewarding philisophical debate-but terrifying-because of the stakes involved;Lars might be a jerk,and have some ignorantly nasty perceptions about the immorality of the poor-but he "knows drama"...

[@misterx5115]

Non politically correct does not mean "jerk"

[@mishynaofficial]

​@@misterx5115judging people by their social status does mean he's a jerk.

[@tetsuolionheart9611]

​@@mishynaofficialSo do you believe one's status is society dictates their morals? That personal responsibility and accountability is exclusive to one grouo. Honestly you sound a lot like Grace.

[@mishynaofficial]

@@tetsuolionheart9611 You misread my comment.

[@travisbickle3835]

Bro you hear this guy say "i understand Hitler" in a jokey way once and decide he's a jerk the real man is more left wing than you can think

[@KBunny13]

for the worse, then. Lars Von Trier is a brilliant director with a profoundly twisted world view. He reads Nietzsche with the same sophistication as Hitler. Bjork called him an emotional pornographer.

[@Dyler]

You're an empathetic person, but clearly you have never been abused because of your empathy. I have and that's why this scene reasonates with me. I think this kind of speech takes serious, real world life experience to understand. Theoretical need not apply.

[@jaiskreno]

!

[@pathetic2399]

@@Dyler exactly. The whole speech makes a lot of sense

[@HaraldSjellose]

you read just too much.

[@chickenringNYC]

Bjork is a washed up cry baby

[@yohkiraricabalgonzalez5999]

El peligro de romántisar y justificar la delincuencia, arrogancia y se paga caro

[@sziszyke]

"You forgive others with excuses that you would never in the world permit for yourself." "You have this preconceived notion that nobody, listen, that nobody can't possibly attain the same high ethical standards as you, so you exonerate them. I can not think of anything more arrogant than that." Hearing those Jesus doesn't just roll i his grave, but resurrects again. :D All that he said and suffered and died for, gone in a few sentences. :D

[@mishynaofficial]

Exactly. "If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also" by Jesus should win the dumbest quote of all time!

[@skrivebordsskuffen2442]

Know this conversation..💔

[@fabiogiulianostella4937]

Forgiveness is arrogance? Someway...it may be. Are we arrogant only for bad things...or hope is completely disappeared from human mind...and heart?

[@ellebell9139]

Yes. Watch the movie, this is like the end of the movie/moral

[@elizarob4181]

Daaaamm, dad was right

[@milesfurther4395]

So it turns out that she’s Jesus?

[@Rosendrache]

Nice metaphor but I'd rather say that the similarities doesn't stops at the point you've said. Grace's final decision could be called "The Apocalypse", "The Final Judgement". I wouldn't say that her decision is "lowering of standards", but rather reunification, synthesis with her father, and with the humanity, what biblical "Final Judgement", too, really is. (and it is not just total slaughter, remember, Moses, the dog, survived "the judgement" of Dogvillie :D )

[@dadsass126]

had an ex like that. Saint at the time, monster in retrospect.

[@lavriccat2011]

@Dextear Is this case, liberalism is forgiveness.

[@Dextear]

@lavriccat2011 What the hell does this have to do with liberalism?

[@OpenInsanity]

fuckin smart

[@skrivebordsskuffen2442]

Jesus

[@bluehealer81]

Not quite.

[@lavriccat2011]

@xxxxinnaxxxx I am glad to hear, Your perception has been changed! All liberals should watch this movie. As Michael Savage said: "Liberalism, it's a mental disorder!". Sometimes, it's curable.

[@relshdan]

quite amazing that an ultra-leftist euro, created the greated anti-amrican-liberal film ever. Tom is the american liberal...

[@creichling2638]

Ha ha. It is about human beings in general, but Americans in particular. Lurking beneath the apple-pie friendliness and moral righteousness are violence and mendacity.