doing math is lonely

[@lour8862]

Could you elaborate on what the music that we learn how to read but can't play sounds like? (In maths obviously)

[@brokemathstudent]

that's a good question - i can try to give an answer, but i apologize in advance if it's too vague and imprecise for your taste. in some ways it's the difference between cooking by precisely following a recipe someone else gave you, and cooking by experimenting around with the ingredients, making some mistakes and maybe burning stuff along the way, but playing with it. it's this playful aspect i'm trying to point towards, and it's difficult to convey because we can have pictures and feelings in our minds but they often lose a certain vitality when put into words (often we can convey what we know but not what we understand). perhaps then it lies more in our disposition and attitude towards such learning, rather than any of the content of that learning per se. to treat mathematics as primarily an exploratory enterprise, where we can tweak things and find out what happens, rather than a rigid system of rules we must adhere to - both aspects are crucial and are genuine aspects of the truth, but the discipline of rules should serve the exploratory mode of understanding, rather than it being the other way around.

[@imacrazyguylol]

The way I understood it is that in school we learn the rudiments of math without any indication of how it’s used or how it all fits together, like we see an formula and learn what it does to a number but seldom learn what it really does in the world and/or why it exists

[@lambda5949]

One of my favorite math books is Tristan Needham's "Visual Complex Analysis" and he makes a very similar point-how disturbing would it be to live in a society that forced people to spend their childhood learning to read music and memorize its intricacies, all without ever seeing or learning to create music yourself. That's basically what math education is like today-we heap praise on the power of math to solve problems and explain the world around us, but the ways in which these problems are manipulated and explored in the language of math is a complete black box because students are rarely given the opportunity to learn more than the syntax. A more concrete example might actually be learning the syntax of a programming langauge without ever just being given a computer and asked to code something-you'd get bored by your 2nd lesson.

[@B-nu8ss]

You may be interested in reading Paul Lockhart's "A Mathematician's Lament". It uses this analogy.

[@haroldbauer8724]

No offence but you absolutely didn't answer that question at all@@brokemathstudent

[@fg786]

There was a Field's Medal winner saying that outside of his narrow specialization in math he doesn't even understand what the titles of scientific papers mean.

[@primenumberbuster404]

Plz tell the name of that honourable person.

[@DG-mk7kd]

On the other hand I read Terrance Tao will take a regular math sabbatical by diving into a field far outside of his usual research for a couple weeks and frequently making significant contributions.

[@midmeh]

​@@DG-mk7kdgoated

[@MB-br6wf]

@@DG-mk7kd 🙄

[@vvert1506]

​@@DG-mk7kd I mean... Its Terrance Tao... 😭

[@hyp3rgaming836]

I like solving math problems when I don't have the pressure of a looming exam over my head.

[@Random13Guy]

True!

[@santhypaezyeah]

i do

[@ugestacoolie5998]

yeah, when they add a time constraint it really changes everything, I like to explore the different fields of math, but I really suck at solving questions rapidly lol

[@naomiyusuf7147]

I relate to this so much!! Like i enjoy solving math when I practice it at home but when I have tests or exams I don't do that well. I don't perform so well under pressure and I like to take my time when solving math problems.

[@schenzur]

fellow slow astute problem solvers unite!

[@boogerie]

Pure mathematics is an art without a medium

[@idk-lz4nl]

How can one perceive art without a medium? Are not the words and symbols used in an elegant proof a medium?

[@Anyashiina]

@@idk-lz4nl Yeah, I would say that is the medium, it's just a very inaccessible one

[@boogerie]

@@idk-lz4nl Only to the extent that sheet music is a medium. Just not an artistic medium. A musician's medium is his instrument. A singer his voice. A dancer his body. A painter his paints and canvas. etc. A mathematician engaged in pure mathematics? Nothing comparable

[@danielmaxhoffmann1917]

​@@boogerieI very like the phrase from your first comment. Nice one! However, I am not entirely sure about its correctness. Perhaps the medium is hidden in the mathematical education of a given person obtained before facing a pure math proof - his/her mathematical culture, mathematical taste and mathematical habits. Like a painting canvas - somebody made it before you can throw on it your mathematical argument, before you can express your math art on it. The next thing is the classical problem of universals related to the existence of mathematical ideas and how we communicate and perceive them - simply, becuase of not understanding the process it is hard to exclude the existence of a medium.

[@guroh6795]

Maybe maths doesn't have a physical medium but I'd argue that the medium of maths is thought. The beauty lies in the understanding of the concepts and their relations, in the chain of thought that convinces you that some statement holds or not. That's what makes it so hard to convey a piece of "math art" to another person: you cannot passively consume math like you can view a painting or listen to a piece of music but rather have to be the artist yourself and actively create the thoughts and images in you mind, be it by "improvising" i.e. finding the connection/reasoning by yourself or by following the "sheet music" i.e. written down proofs by others.

[@ducksies]

I'm a math major too and I relate to this hard. The only people who seem interested in what I'm doing are biologists strangely enough

[@sournois90]

what about complex game developers?

[@ducksies]

@@sournois90 my field of study is not really applicable to game development

[@iwannabethekid34xc]

Biochem major pharmabro here, math is very, very important to be solid at, and through observation we understand more about life sciences frequently.

[@jesuschavez9652]

As a fellow math major, same here! Biologists are some of the people most interested in maths I've seen. Thought it was more a thing of my circle of close friends, how odd.

[@jacobharris5894]

As a physics graduate also very much into math, I’d be interested. Although I wouldn’t promise to understand it though.

[@shadamethyst1258]

Most people can't read a music sheet, and most people can't read a mathematical paper. But people enjoy music when it's played. So the question becomes: how can you "play" maths? We have computer games for computer science, but we rarely see nice visuals for maths, which I think is a shame

[@Jean_Dupon]

Well, I think you can’t "play". The very principle of mathematics is to be immutable, timeless. It's not the same beauty as music, it's that of truth. There is no concept such as time. Unless we are talking about, like you said, computer science. We can also say that mathematics is very linked to philosophy, which could explain the lack of interest of many.😂

[@IN-pr3lw]

Maths describes the nature of the universe so it's invisible but very very important

[@extagram]

​@@Jean_Duponhis feels so... Sad. It kinda feels like whatever you make will never be seen by anyone else anyway.

[@marcoponzio1644]

Beautiful analogy. Really makes me think

[@petebryan04]

math has latex. trust, it was so worthwhile to learn for me.

[@ClintStone-t9m]

"Every good mathematician is at least half a philosopher, and every good philospher is at least half a mathmatician" - Gottlob Frege

[@reiniervannek]

But Frege be hella difficult to read - me when I read frege

[@lovishnahar1807]

ty ur words directly conveyed what i always thought i am but i had no one to gut check if i am even of that type, truly mathematics, science gives all life lesson even if it never mention

[@muramasa870]

Stop yapping blud and start gooning to this video

[@DZM318]

@@lovishnahar1807I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. What do you mean that math and science give all the life lessons, without mentioning them? Philosophy is what gives us life lessons, and lessons about these subjects as well. It’s what transcended, and continues to transcend the humanities, and the sciences.

[@Alex-ns6hj]

@@reiniervannekwhy is that? I’ve never heard of this person

[@theknightikins9397]

I’m a physics major and I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head. I’ve always enjoyed math, but up until this semester I haven’t loved it. This semester though, my calculus 2 professor is possibly the greatest teacher I have ever had. He doesn’t just go up and teach one days lesson. He instead connects to new subject to the previous. Instead of just teaching us how to take a certain integral, he shows how we figured this out through the other methods we have learned. I think this is something many math teachers miss. It’s a story where each page is a continuation of the last a book where all the pages are shuffled and cut up means nothing, but the lord of the rings has meaning.

[@janusmarais7580]

You perfectly described why I like learning math even in my free time, that sudden click when you notice how 2 completely different seeming things all the sudden are just different sides of the same coin. The anticipation of that feeling makes the hour of work feel worth it

[@nomppy]

haha wait until u learn about rings

[@voskresenie-]

calculus isn't math any more than playing basketball is physics. in either case, the former is explained by the latter, but the former is not itself the latter.

[@sebastiangudino9377]

And you are only at calc 2 dude. Get ready to start seeing the actually big picture when you get to QM. Calculus of Variation, Hilbert Spaces, Complex Analysis, Linear Algebra, Group Theory, Differential Equations, Probability, Statistics and Combinatorics all coming together into a weird beautiful theory that describes the physical world which you can measure and feel and visualize. It is VERY hard to not get lost in abstraction at that level, but you really start to get a true glimpse, if math is a language, that will be the first poem you read

[@PopPhyzzle]

I feel this in my soul. Every time people I know disinterestedly tell me I'm smart and avoid engaging me on topic I want to die. It's living without being related to or appreciated.

[@pauldirc..]

I wish I can be your friend, I like maths even I am not good at it , what interest me most is how mathematician came to discover these abstract things like why matrix multiplication is the way it is , how topology needed etc

[@made-bp6uf]

me too bro.. we do significant work but it's not appreciated and no one understands the beauty we see behind every maths concept.. we can talk if you like we can be maths friends

[@gamevies9254]

I have a math learning disability, so I am one of the people who "hated math in school". this video is really eye opening, i can't imagine not being able to share my work with the average person. I think it's admirable that you're so passionate depite all of this.

[@spiralspark8523]

I'm curious about what you do, I wanna see!

[@ee-um2ef]

tf is a math learning disability

[@MagicGonads]

you don't need to be able to calculate to think in mathematical ways and learn mathematical concepts, it's one of the major flaws of mathematical teaching in schools that calculation is even a fundamental part of it when what's really fundamental is structure.

[@MyOneFiftiethOfADollar]

your problem is that you believe "you have a math learning disability" Understandable, since you have a ready made excuse to hate yet another thing in the long list of things you hate.

[@MagicGonads]

@@MyOneFiftiethOfADollar Dyscalculia is a real thing, but at most the only thing it inhibits when it comes to mathematical understanding is being unable to see simple patterns at a glance (the rest mostly have to do with numeric or time oriented processing)

[@DireSheep]

This is what I was just thinking about a few days ago! Looking around my classroom in algebraic topology and seeing just a few heads made me think about all the times I've studied in the library, using a chalkboard all by myself while all around me groups of students are talking and laughing together, doing biology, chemistry, or even physics. Doing math is such an individual endeavor, and I feel like the further you push into it the more disconnected you become from your friends that pursue other fields, simply because you have no way of connecting it back to the real world

[@biketraintaxland]

i think u can find way to talk to them about topic (for example) when the teacher or task they assign was related to math. I think they will empathize when there is topic that u dont know

[@toucan966]

As a math major, I heavily agree to this video. Nobody is really interested in hearing me out cause they generally think I am some crazy and smart dude and tend to stay away from me. I hated math as a kid in elementary but slowly in high school it grew up on me and I started loving it alot more when I realized what math really is. Great video which I can heavily relate to.

[@biketraintaxland]

i think u can find way to talk to them about topic (for example) when the teacher or task they assign was related to math. I think they will empathize when there is topic that u dont know

[@Windows98Fanboy]

​@@biketraintaxlandwhat

[@friend87]

Great video. Also, a fat W for playing monogatari ost.

[@brokemathstudent]

hope they dont claim it for content id in the future lol also, off season and monster season adaptation hype

[@dizzymetrics]

scene at 6:11 into Suteki Meppou talking about the loneliness of mathematics was not something I was expecting at 2am bless you brokemathstudent

[@chiragmathias771]

True this was the last thing I was expecting to happen in this video.

[@taranmellacheruvu2504]

I find that math (even quite abstract math) almost always has a physical analogy, but mathematicians don’t really think of it that way so advances in pedagogy rarely occur. I like both math and physics, and tools from physics are very great when used to help intuit mathematical concepts.

[@brokemathstudent]

I do agree that a great deal of math can be seen through the lens of physics, but I think there’s also a lot of it that cannot be seen through that lens as well (perhaps it will be the subject of a future physical theory, one yet to be developed). (I have often lamented my lack of physical intuition when learning more ‘physical’ math such as PDEs.) Part of why pedagogy is hard though is because what is intuitive to one person sometimes makes no sense to another person (which is partially why many math textbooks resort to the dry definition-theorem-proof style). Nonetheless, I do agree with you that it would be good to have more physical intuitions conveyed when teaching math (and especially at an undergrad level when teaching to non-math majors, there should be much more exploration of how such concepts actually arise in practice outside of math). Anyway, I have been annoyed by lousy pedagogy in math education for a long time, and I guess part of my vision for this channel is to try my hand at improving my own pedagogical skills in part by learning tools like 3Blue1Brown’s Manim. I hope I can do something good in this regard.

[@Trenz0]

As a mechanical engineering student who also loves math (few of us do) I get so excited when I get to see physical applications of the concepts we blindly learned in math. It's a difficult line to walk since understanding of these applications often involves understanding of physics. I'm deep into signal processing and control systems engineering stuff atm and I'm really enjoying seeing WHY we learn Laplace transforms. It feels like the culmination of diffEQ and physics, as we're moving from steady state analysis of physics and into more general forms that able to account for oscillations as well. Not as many people are as nerdy as myself so I can also see how cumbersome such examples could get. At the very least, math teachers could utilize tools like geogebra and desmos to help demonstrate concepts that can be visualized. My calculus teacher up through vector calc did a FANTASTIC job with this. We had 'labs' where we would work through concepts for the week using tools she had made on Geogebra or desmos or by creating our own. The woman was a brilliant teacher of math and she did so at a community college! I feel sorry for my peers here at university, where math is taught VERY poorly and is intentionally used as a "weed out class" for the large amount of engineering students we have. This crap has led to many of my peers just skating by without ever truly learning math and as such struggling very hard when any algebra or calculus pops up again.

[@fahimrahman7675]

While physical anologies are great for motivation and understanding, it does tend to obfuscate understanding at some levels and for certain areas of study. I think being good at grasping abstract concepts without a physical intuition is one of the strengths of an adept math student since being reliant on real world analogies becomes a limitation at some point.

[@MyOneFiftiethOfADollar]

insisting on a "physical analogy" indicates you are not mathematically inclined. Pure mathematician's are essentially the opposite of your insular perspective. They don't want "physical analogies" to taint their beautiful theory building.

[@giantjupiter]

​I am simply wondering from a 3B1B vid on Group Theory, how can we use the "monster matrices" ig?​ Btw, the lousy pedagogy is true in many aspects. I was really eager to solve Physics numericals even two years ago. Turns out that while doing sums on inclined planes, our teacher said to be mature and try to pick up where sin theta and cos theta are to be used. That... was a canon event for me. I couldn't even understand Gauss' Law for seven months because of that Physics teacher. And now I'm regretting. Idk if I'll be able to score good marks in Physics. I'm going through public exams rn, and none of us could do well in Maths. But I like Maths a LOT. I like how people will never forget to multiply the nCr in binomial theorem if they know that it's just the n number of combinations of "different amounts of a and b multiplied, all adding up to n..." I like how beautiful the graph of arcsec(x) is. Yet all of it is spoiled by the lack of communication of the beauties of Math even within the syllabus. (Maybe I don't make sense at all...) @@brokemathstudent

[@Chickon273]

I think about this feeling all of the time. It's even more isolating not going to a school which really specializes in math so the other math majors I know also don't really understand (or care) about the types of research problems I am interested in. Still feels like I am in high school in terms of people just doing whatever they need to do to get the course over with and get the degree. I have been reading lots of Paul Lockhart and it sounds like you are familiar from your music education analogy. I wish I could hand out his books to everyone I know so they could get a glimpse into the beauty I see in it all. Being a music producer it's frustrating that most of my friends see my music as my "creative side" and math as my "logical side" whereas I feel like I am just an artist of two fields and one of them is entirely disregarded. I hope we find more people as time goes on that are willing to listen to us ramble about this stuff.

[@brokemathstudent]

yes, lockhart is a gem! and part of why i made this channel is to be a place for me to ramble lol

[@googlekopfkind]

I am interested to listen to your stuff actually

[@18puppies91]

Being the only girl in engineering made it very hard. None of my friends cared about what I was doing.

[@carstenmeyer7786]

There are quite a few proofs in mathematics that could be called "art", since their ideas are just beautiful. "Goursat's Lemma" (with triangles) from "Complex Analysis" comes to mind -- with a simple geometric idea, you create so much structure from nothing, it's simply amazing... One of the few times students gave applause in the middle of the lecture once this proof was done, and deservedly so.

[@jacobharris5894]

If I can relate so much as a physics graduate I can’t imagine how much lonelier it must feel taking the abstraction to another level.

[@Muongoing.97c]

As a physics grad, I empathize but can’t relate. My own work is so specialized I can count the number of groups in the entire world who do related work with fingers left over. Not counting secret government labs which definitely exist because they send us projects sometimes. But with that being said, I’ve always found physics translates very well between disciplines. I work often with materials folks, and I know many in the AMO and laser communities are interested in similar problems just with different approaches. Even though the systems appear different at first glance, often the physics is analogous. A wave equation is a wave equation, whether it is a quantum mechanical wave packet or a classical EM wave.

[@jacobharris5894]

@@Muongoing.97c Yeah there is plenty of overlap between physics fields but I was more alluding to talking to the average person as a physicist. Most of physics isn’t as abstract as pure math so some level of communication about what you do is possible but it’s still difficult and somewhat isolating. Either because people don’t have the background or don’t really care to know what you do.

[@Muongoing.97c]

@@jacobharris5894 Ah, in that sense I agree more. Still I think as an experimental physicist I have a slight advantage when it comes to talking with an average person, because I can show pictures of a setup and pivot to talking about that rather than the physics. Everyone understands the difficulties of money, manufacturing, and supply chains, and I can turn into an amateur electrician on a dime. It's unfortunate that most people are so anti-maths in our culture and take it almost as a point of pride to say "I'm bad at maths."

[@tofupowda]

@@Muongoing.97c empathy is relation. you can't empathize without having experienced the thing yourself

[@SimonGerber-fg8ef]

​@@jacobharris5894 Do you have a girlfriend?

[@loopyzreal]

As a Musician who has gone extremely deep into my instruments, as well as the world of chord theory and shaping sound; and as a current BS Physics undergrad student, I cannot emphasize enough how much I relate with what you have said - about Math and its comparison with my fields. I mingle quite a bit with pure math so I very much salute you all diving into the world of pure abstraction that I moreso apply to the fields I work on.

[@yuefei3120]

I’m a violinist wanting to major in physics! Totally agree with you

[@subnumeric]

Came for the sob, stayed for the monogatari reference

[@weirdfrog1196]

Stand proud. You can cook.

[@weirdfrog1196]

Are you broke math student because math is lonely, or is math lonely because you are broke math student?

[@brokemathstudent]

I’m a junkyard full of false starts

[@kazzz2765]

@@brokemathstudentYou’re coming up roses everywhere you go

[@prithujsarkar2010]

but I've left it all behind

[@Mepharias]

@soeinspast4096 I feel you. It's everywhere. Literally everywhere. I'll be doing the most random thing and then someone flashbangs me with Nah I'd Jogoat Strongest Are The You Win. I think the Go/Jo incident shattered everyone's collective mind and scattered them all to the winds, like pollen. Now everything is dusty.

[@douglasstrother6584]

"Mathematics, A Human Endeavor" by Harold R. Jacobs (1970) is a fun read.

[@rossjennings4755]

I remember that book! My AP calculus teacher introduced me to it when I was in high school.

[@douglasstrother6584]

@@rossjennings4755 Nice! My copy was originally my Dad's.

[@elaxter]

I feel the same way about computer science or even just programming in general. I can't talk to most of the people in my life about one of my passions because it can seem esoteric or impenetrable. Even my hobby in drawing can feel lonely because of all of the preconceptions that people carry about it. Fortunately I have a friend who is into both and they're very supportive. Nice video! Keep your head up partner.

[@Avighna]

man i know it sucks, i have the most esoteric hobbies and am super lonely

[@arcuh9993]

Yeah it feels so bizarre when someone asks what coding is for. I end up only being able to talk about computer sciency stuff with people from my major in uni.

[@hengry2]

​@@arcuh9993im a aerospace undergrad but i still find coding interesting, i dont really care as much about the comp sci study because it focuses on things not really interesting, such as digital component classes

[@s_cycle1921]

Doing my engineering PhD, I recall spending 2 weeks trying to understand one page of a maths proof. Finally understood the crux move, but now I don't even recall what that was! the research was on ill-posed equations in fluid dynamics, and i recall thinking that only three people in the world would read my paper; my supervisor, maybe a math guy in a russian research institute, and me. In the same two weeks, history PhD's would be expected to read 2-3 books and talk to each other all the time. Ah for those days... no money of course and to my shame I did once steal a block of cheese from Sainsburys, but I was absorbed by a meaningful activity.

[@nami1540]

So why did you feel that this was meaningful? I am in the same position and I start to fell like most engineering research projects actually being self serving activities. To my understanding, very little in mechanics research actually leads to anything that can be used to improve machines. However, a lot of work is spent on how to get the next grant and on how to make research appear sustainable and green

[@s_cycle1921]

@@nami1540 Yes you may well be correct that many engineering Ph.Ds don't lead to an innovation - or that its just not an efficient way to innovate. but thats unavoidable, right...its innovation and you won't know till you try it. In my case, the value that came out of my PhD, was: demonstrating sticking power and the ability to finish something; attention to quality and producing a high quality outcome; practicing writing and making a convincing argument for something (a skill woefully underpracticed amongst engineers and far more important than most things I was learned). All these I've used in my professional life since - I started a business that used these principles and we were very different and very successful. I also enjoyed that feeling that I'd peeled back the cover on reality just a little bit, and I understood a small part of the world a little better with maths.

[@matthias2447]

@2:45 this is where engineers come in. They take the theory and put it into practice. This is where even, like you called it, "outsiders" can appreciate the beauty of it.

[@SAM999XXX]

Not abstract math engineers can't use it easily unless physicists

[@raven.petrichor]

as a fledgling student barely doing basic differential and integral calculus, I am already feeling this isolation, as many of my peers chose to do "easier" or different branches of math or science just to avoid what they perceived as unknowable. though I am not the best at math, taking calculus has given me a deeper appreciation for and understanding of many aspects of the subject that I don't think I would have ever known otherwise. unfortunately, I cannot talk about this with many of my peers, as they either refuse to listen once I mention math at all (aversion to math

[@kylebrekke6540]

I think this also illustrates a trend in (American) society, where it seems the average non-technical person tends to view calculus as the "end" of math. Because-in my experience-the lay understanding of math is as a calculation tool, and not an explorative one. But if you actually look at mathematics programs in universities, so-called advanced calculus topics like multivariate and differential equations aren't really the end of math-they're the beginning! And it seems that there's a pretty major public disconnect between that understanding.

[@daelaenor]

My problem with math is the process of problem-solving. There's always that small detail I either forgot or don't know that I don't know it yet, which brings everything to a complete halt. Can't half-ass thoroughness.

[@sebastiangudino9377]

You are probably tackling problems that are too hard for your level, or that you cannot yet visualize. For example if you often forget that the sum of the angles of a square is 360°, your problem might be that you are not visualizing the square so that the fact becomes self evident. The square is just an example of course, but this same kind of logic is important for math in general. Details in math are not "thinks to keep in mind", they are fundamental properties of the very structure you are working with

[@daelaenor]

@@sebastiangudino9377 Maybe. I guess, I haven't invested that much effort into proper visualization, especially when confronted with higher complexity in euclidean space. Any noteworthy advice you could give?

[@PietroSaccardi]

IMHO the mathematical community could do a lot more to bridge the gap to any other non-hyperspecialized public, starting from cross-field to cross-disciplinary, instead of perpetuating an ideal of a mathematician as fully devoted to the discipline, and only existing in a tiny community of peers. It would benefit immensely of attracting more people who have diverse interests and views. At least, it wouldn’t be as lonely

[@brokemathstudent]

yes, there's a lot of interesting interdisciplinary work to do (say with math and biology which is quite hot these days), and i think it only serves to make for more interesting mathematics (as opposed to the "inbred" math that arises when working without inspiration from the real world as described by von Neumann in his essay "The Mathematician"

[@dyllanusher1379]

I'm a farmer that's also interested in math. Works out great with the off season! I agree that math is lonely. I've gotten the most joy out of math by bouncing ideas back and forth with my friend! My other friends don't enjoy it, or don't speak the language enough to understand. Without my friend that pushes me to learn more and form new ideas, I think I'd put the subject down. It's so beautiful on its own, but I've done enough of it in isolation. Knowledge is nothing if not shared!

[@dariocorona9898]

Hi there :) As a researcher in mathematics, I've been pondering this issue for a long time. Your comment sounds reasonable, and of course, something can be done to attract more people to math (assuming this would be a good thing). I assure you that it's always awful and painful not to be able to explain to your friends (or to your wife) what you do for work, trying not to appear as a genius (we usually are not) or to say that your work is meaningless (it's usually the case). But on the other side, this is really what math is nowadays: a hyperspecialized field of research. A colleague of mine tried to explain what he does to his wife, and the best he could do was: "I studied the behavior of mushroom-like sets at infinity." Her answer was: "don't say it to nobody, otherwise the government won't pay you anymore." Not only does my wife not know what I do, but even most of my colleagues don't, simply because they work in other research areas of math. We could (and we actually do) present math as an interdisciplinary science, explaining why it's important and how it affects the world. I do this sometimes in schools, and I try my best to explain the importance of my area of math. But it takes at least one hour to give a glimpse of the importance of the work of Newton, who lived in the 1700s, and his ideas are basic math everyone studies in the first year of college. So, I am not even close to explaining my work... and I'm pretty sure that if some professional mathematicians claim they can explain their work to a general public in 15 minutes, they could only do so by trivializing their ideas, thus making fools of the audience. In summary: professional mathematicians face this communication problem every day, and they're not happy about it. We're not a sect trying to hide some secret, but I believe it's intrinsically difficult (maybe impossible) to explain to non-mathematicians the challenges and importance of math work (in a decent amount of time).

[@paul_tee]

@@dariocorona9898 the real secret to selling your research is lying about it

[@reedoken6143]

your description of undergrad being just learning the vocabulary of the language of maths really spoke to me. I've always had a hard time explaining to people what I learned in my applied maths undergrad, and how it wasn't the same as what they learned for engineering, but also isn't the same as maths research. I always thought it was weird people would say I must be smart for studying maths in undergrad, and I don't think it's imposter syndrome, just the vastness of the subject is hard for people to comprehend

[@spaceshipastro]

as a freshman student girl i almost cried this video is so helpful, thank you cause you made it somehow easy.

[@googlekopfkind]

This applies not only to math but to all sciences, as well as to art and every geekdom out there. But the more one specializes, the more insights into thoughts and emotional worlds one gains, which are completely worth the work, at least that's how it is for me. Even if one is alone in this, for me, it is the greatest passion, and I love delving into these other worlds and exploring something where no one has looked before. But you're right that math is particularly lonely because you can't even present the results in any way unless you're working on something that is actually visually representable. I have great respect for all those who dedicate themselves deeply to something and gain insights that go beyond the ordinary. If I weren't a composer, I would be a mathematician.

[@relaxandfocus5563]

But it's still worth it to attempt expressing and sharing those insights. Otherwise, it'll be really sad to have this world of beauty inaccessible once the mathematician dies. Edit: On specialization, I don't fully agree. It's true that delving deep enough into one narrow area might generate some novel insights, open up a new world as I like to think of it, it's still going to end up connected in someway to other areas. Interdisciplinary work is essential, because without it, you'd have a mess of branches that don't connect. Plus, not all of us have the interest for studying one thing only for so long. I myself have too many interests it's actually hard to manage them all!

[@tofupowda]

​@@relaxandfocus5563 completely agree here. i often think specialization is a hinderance to expanding our collective knowledge or 'progress' (whatever that is). a more inter/trans-disciplinary approach to things (academia, in and outside of it) needs to be taken. collaboration between fields and subfields needs to be the norm, not hyper-specialization into one esoteric sector that already exists within an esoteric subfield. that only serves to separate, regardless of whether or not the lone person or group doing so, expands their knowledge, as it doesn't actually apply to anything. one can enjoy diving further into a subject, to depths no one else has but how does it relate to the outside world? we need to work in a way that the knowledge acquired by experts in their fields is applicable and useful to a (example) 4th grader with absolutely no interest or proximity to the subject matter.

[@BennettAustin7]

Very nice thoughts on this topic. Thanks. I do think a major benefit of mathematics being lonely is that it forces you to understand a subject entirely by yourself. Without receiving hints or piggybacking off of another student, you have to pave the way all by yourself which really helps the understanding sink in. Being able to come up with a proof step by step is very crucial as it shows you really know the topic

[@nolanfaught6974]

A career speaker for mathematics at my uni did research in functional analysis and could list every person that cared about his publications. He quit academia to work in physical science because he felt like his work was more recognized there. I actually enjoy the exclusivity of some more esoteric branches of math because it’s easier to have a personal connection with the people in your field. You can attend conferences with only 50 people and know every single person, their sub fields of research, and possible collaborations.

[@CatholicDraft]

I do a lot of research in theology, it is not by any stretch a similar field but I relate heavily to many of the points made in this video. It’s such a niche field and now more than ever is one that has a culturally accepted negative stereotype (generally one of stupid takes used to emotionally cover yourself for hardships) so it can feel like an uphill battle just explaining why it’s interesting to others. The point about working for a handful of others can feel very true also, there are many papers I’ve read that I won’t ever be able to discuss with anyone other than maybe a handful of people because nobody gets the scholasticism involved, the tradition of scholasticism itself is dying. It brings me joy that at least for math it’s own tradition is not dying even if it seems equally or even more lonely now.

[@brokemathstudent]

theology is good stuff and very underappreciated these days :)

[@PBromide]

Good video. I was intrigued by recreational math after taking a discrete math course, and I started messing around with solving some problems on my own afterwards. I gave up because there was nobody I could really go to to help when I encountered problems, and even if I had gone through with it, nobody else would know or care what it meant. I’d have felt too intimidated to go to a forum for anything. It’s a shame, but such is the nature of being interested in esoteric topics. Seeing people who do math recreationally or academically puts a smile on my face, because I know they must be quite passionate about the subject to continue doing it when there will be very little acknowledgement of their accomplishments.

[@s_a_z_i_d]

I am from India and I am preparing for an exam called JEE which is an entrance examination for engineering colleges. One of the three subjects you need to study is Mathematics. As I was preparing for the examination, I realized I was loving the process of studying Mathematics but at the same time the process was too fast. I did not even ingest a chapter and the teacher starts teaching the next one. I was annoyed. Why doesn't the world let us enbrace the beauty of something before forcing it into our brains? It was a very uneasy feeling, such beautiful concepts getting butchered by such poor teaching techniques. The teachers are not to be blamed since thats how almost the whole world teaches math to students. But this is just not right. I really hope our generation can change the next generation's perspective towards the subject and make them understand its beauty. Great video by the way, cheers!

[@augustedupin9576]

Same happened to me when I was preparing for JEE. I would have loved to fully understand the concepts for their beauty. But when u preparing for exams, solving problems quickly is the priority so, the focus is just on memorising formulas and tricks. The education system really sucks especially in India. Anyway, Best of luck for ur exam.

[@s_a_z_i_d]

@@augustedupin9576 your words are highly appreciated, I will try my best :)

[@aaryantawhare1513]

​@@s_a_z_i_d Good luck bruv👍.

[@s_a_z_i_d]

@@aaryantawhare1513 Thanks mate, I will do my best :)

[@maxnoob7612]

Well next year i am also going to prepare for jee exam

[@damiamalfaro]

Couldn't agree more with you. I love the analogy of the Travel Path and fellow Traveler, as well as the quote you used at the end regarding Math, Ideas, and Loneliness

[@danielnuncio4711]

I’ve been drumming for about a decade and a half now and that’s probably always going to be my number one passion that I devote the majority of my free time too. Independence of my arms and legs is something that I LOOOOVVEEE to work and destroy my brain on constantly making my right arm do a constant 16th pattern while my left arm does some syncopated rhythm, left foot do constant quarters, and right foot do a complementary rhythm to my left hand…. Ahhhh that is how I feel mathematics. When the groove is down and incorporated the amount of pure joy and happiness I feel is other worldly… Currently I’ve gone back to school to major in mathematics, I wouldn’t say I’m even above average in my mathematical abilities. This idea and connection between these disciplines I wish to explore and somehow teach to future students of mine (I wanna be a professor) to inspire some sort of cross-disciplinary process, system, mechanism, etc… I’d like to play a role in it some how at least. This video was timely and awesome thank you for it 🙏👏

[@brokemathstudent]

Thank you for watching! All the best with your dream to become a professor - it’s a long and difficult path ahead!

[@LuisVasDeCamoes]

I am a robotics engineer and I love math, yet I find no colleagues or friends to share this passion with. I'm neuro-divergent and have a hard time with words. People think me stupid when I speak, but they respect me when they understand my math. I didn't like it at first, but after studying theoretical physics, I learned that math is my natural way of speaking and be heard. I got in computer science and later in robotics because I make a lot of mistakes, due to my neurodivergence. But computers can both correct me and show my peers the results of my work. Yet I miss working with pure math as I did in physics... And I miss having peers as passionate about it as me

[@Trilobita98]

You remind me of a neurotypical guy I used to be friends with back in college. Odd fellow socially. Would miss out on social signals but man, seeing that dude with pages upon pages of vector calculus.. respect to him

[@Trilobita98]

I'm a CS guy but I like to dabble with number theory and factoring algorithms for fun from time to time

[@perse_phone]

i loove it, this video perfectly sorted words for what i felt as an ex math major in college i used to feel so guilty for changing majors because others randomly made accusations and talked ab me wasting years of my life without actually understanding how hard and lonely it is especially that a feeling isn't a good enough reason for such a drastic decision but that's only from an external pov since it's such a huge commitment that i personally wasn't ready for

[@herakies5495]

Out of curioisty, what major did you change to? I have maths as one of my options, but I'd like to see more, especially after this video

[@perse_phone]

@@herakies5495 to be more accurate i am still in the transitioning phase as i should prep for sort of an acceptance or entrance exam first and get ranked high in the admitted list, but i am hoping for biology so that i can later on specialize in computational biology or biological engineering, i also seem to have an interest in medicine so i've got a wide variety of options, i wholeheartedly hope to achieve this it means so much to me.

[@herakies5495]

@perse_phone i'm sure you will achieve it, best of luck and thank you for your answer

[@Jonny_XD_]

As a Student who loves math... I am scared. I am scared that in the future, no one will see, understand or Worst, not even care for the art I will make. I am scared that all my work will be for nothing. Yet, I will keep going to fulfill my dreams of becoming a mathematician. I will make art and try to show it to the world. I will explain my art to the world if needed. I will make the people understand the art. I will make my art become my life goal. I am 19 right now and I live in germany. I discovered my love for math as I finished 10th grade. Right now I am in 13th grade and i am working towards my Abitur (similar to a highschool graduation. Its a qualification granted at the end of secondary education in Germany). I want to study mathematics and I want to specialize in complex analyses and make new discoveries in that field. Everyone I know sadly hates math and told me not to go that route. Except my math teacher. She loves mathematics as much as I do. She told me that she is proud of me going that way. She is the only person who told me that ever. Why am I writing this? Its because I want to show the people that are in similar positions that it is okay to go the way you want to. Even if everyone says that it is the wrong way, there will be at least one person in the world who supports you. If you watched this video, you probably want to do math or at least something similar like math. And I can tell you that I am proud of you wanting to go that way. Keep going and show the world what you can do! Discover, Invent, create and most importantly, enjoy!

[@sinusoidalwave]

i think you just became a motivation for me . i'm in 9th grade currently and i think the math interest i've currently got was started by a good teacher and a few good videos . thanks for inspiring me with your words. i wish you the best in your mathematics journey :3

[@Jonny_XD_]

@@sinusoidalwave Thank you! That means a lot to me. Keep going and do not let yourself get down if someone tries to talk you down or if the problems you are working on in mathematics get to complex. I am proud of you for choosing the way in which you are interested in. I also wish you the best in your journey. :3

[@sinusoidalwave]

t​@@Jonny_XD_ thank you for being so nice :333 i'll make sure to cheer extra loud when u get your fields medal hehe :3 you'll do great :3

[@donaldmickunas8552]

I'm 69 years old. I have learned that doing what you love to do is a reward all on it's own. Imagine doing something you hate every day even though it is popular and brings praise from others. Would it be worth doing for you? My answer was a resounding "NO". Be true to yourself and follow your own path. Failing to do so will result in a day when you will wonder who you really are. Follow your path regardless what others may say. You be you.

[@DemonixTB]

I think the biggest hurdle advanced math faces is the naming problem. Famously called the hardest problem in computer science (There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things. -- Phil Karlton) I think applies to math too. Far more even. In computer science, naming your variables, your functions, or any higher abstraction concept something is very different to describing it, for example a prolific videogame engine developer Mike Acton once gave the example of a chair, in code, you can have a class called Chair, it can contain the world transform matrix, it can contain a reference to PhysicsChair, to DestructableChair, to it's sitting animation keyframes, whatever. None of those things actually represent what a real world chair is, and it doesn't represent what the code does or what is stored in the structure, either. Nor does it help at all in creating the most efficient way for the computer to process it. Being descriptive in an incorrect way then leads to many problems with assumptions people make about how something works when it worked a completely different, or a needlessly complicated way. But when done well, reading code is effortless, as everything is parsable on the first go through and you need not guess what anything is, it feels as free and simple as day. In math all of your labels are one nondescript symbol, sometimes with a sub or a superscript, for the sake of ultimate generality and abstraction. So your syntax is as far from being understandable at first glance as is basically possible without actually encrypting it, there is no place for silly infighting over subtle naming conventions like we do, so you are lucky in that, but all you have are the same couple tens of letters and you pick one and that's that, leading people to coming up with their own meagre impressions with their baked in assumptions that can never encompass the true scope of the symbols at hand. It does lead to terseness, and much progress has been made thanks to that terseness, but ultimately, any time I've ever learned anything in math has been to look at the accompanying diagram, or if none is present, to take the formulas, and find the underlying picture myself, a visual representation of what is happening, because the symbols seem to hide that away despite supposedly being the most elegant representation of it. Perhaps that would be different if communication was done at a slightly less abstract plane, because the human mind is too small to contain every edge case in it at once regardless. Those were just my thoughts, hope they provided some insight.

[@MagicGonads]

TBH I have the opposite perspective, I find it much easier to understand code when we abstract away all the labels and turn them into opaque symbols, perhaps that is why I enjoy reverse engineering and mathematical modelling. The focus can be on what it actually does not what the programmer thinks it does (similar argument to the idea of not commenting your code much). To read code in this way requires an intimate understanding of the semantics of the language so you can simulate it within your mind. Such an intimate understanding of the semantics leads to higher quality code (at the cost of productivity, which is of course seen as bad to short-term minded executives). An obvious exception to this is when we are designing APIs since the semantics of the API is what's important, not its implementation details (or at least, the promises we made about its implementation details to be revised in maintenance), but here mathematical abstraction helps a lot as well.

[@LPSAllyawesome]

great video, great editing and script! as a musician who is really into theory and writing/producing sound, i find my it's so rewarding to share my music who people who truly understand it. it makes me excited about collaboration and proactive growth and i get to jam with my friends. i don't know too much math but it has always interested me as it ties to music definitely. i agree the social of aspect to highly specialized interests are really the best part and can like you said in your last point, help a community grow. and we can truly inspire outsiders who are willing to learn more about our crafts.

[@breakingphysics143]

literally been searching for ages for a funny maths youtube channel, gave up, and went to the youtube homepage, got recommended this, and I'm only 20 seconds in and I already know this is what I was looking for

[@davidc4408]

Great insight . Only people seemed to care about my math major were wall street people. Telling me to get my masters and go into derivatives trading, energy trading or quant trading. Always $$$$$$. Math majors, especially from top universities have one of the highest earnings. Most go into high finance or software engineer

[@CheesymonTony]

I am an academy award winning animator, and my animation experience has taught me how to see mathematical concepts in my mind in a whole new way, because of the years I spent playing and interacting with tools that were based completely in mathematical principles. I was just accepted to the University of Illinois’ Informatics PhD program where my goal is to help people have greater visual intuition for things like math, and really any complex system. I hope my research can one day help people who exist in those worlds be less lonely, as my goal is to help larger amounts of people conceptualize and understand complex systems more intuitively.

[@brokemathstudent]

This sounds great! People who are skilled in both the arts and technology have the greatest potential to make an impact in this space. Hope to see you do cool stuff :)

[@Strata69]

honestly? This kind of encapsulates what i felt in pri & sec school, everyone saying that I was super good at math left me feeling so... alone in the end, i gave up math, moving onto the sciences, but Ive never been able to shake the feeling that i wasted a lot of the opportunities i was given I feel regret when I think of my relationship with mathematics, and I thank you for putting out this video for reminding me that it's fine to move on

[@OnaSoto]

Appreciated the Monogatari music at 6:22

[@brokemathstudent]

wanted to do monogatari style editing for that part but then i stuttered realizing that i can barely edit videos

[@stieli5816]

guess im not the only math addicted Monogatari enjoyer

[@MeoWHamster]

@@brokemathstudent Also caught that monogatari stop frame at 6:11. Then the piano started and I immediately thought - "yo he's cooking"

[@HeIsVeryMinkas]

@@brokemathstudent No. You didn't stutter, that was on purpose.

[@rationalsolver9771]

Came here to look for this comment. I am convinced by now that liking math and liking monogatari are equivalent

[@miguelasensiogarcia8303]

Love your Style of video! I'm a philisopher who is going to start a masters degree in pure math and also a semi profesional musician and your videos really convine everything that I do and love! Thanks a lot!

[@alterI4]

Any subject inevitably becomes indecipherable the more complicated it gets. I feel the same way as a highish level classical musician. Everyone can hear classical music but not everyone understands the nuance behind it. Basically, Its lonely at the top no matter what subject you specialize in.

[@weirdfrog1196]

despair this hits close to home

[@weirdfrog1196]

I'm you.

[@michal5909]

This is incredible.I can't convey how much i like the video. It summed up all my recent thoughts, and added to them.Thruhly a top quality video.

[@elchingon12346]

A beautiful piece. As a teacher, I would love to share the wonderful and thought-provoking pieces about math such as this or 3B1B, but I’m hamstrung by a generation of students whose math skills are 3-7 years below par. Regardless of why they have such a hard time with math, by the time they are my students their math career has been so broken and painful that half my time is spent on just getting students to shake this fear. It’s also not helpful when administration and lawmakers demand that students of X age must be taught Y standards using Z curricula - teachers are not empowered to teach math well. I entered this profession hoping to help kids learn to love math, but instead I’ve learned how much people hate it

[@saraa2147]

I just wanted to call you out for the intelligent way you made your background live and moving rather than a picture of your desk. It cleverly keeps people engaged. I adored your video. I am reading through comments and I wanted to say that if you were ever to write a book, I would read it. Even if it's just on how you perceive the world. I would eat it up. Have a good life. I hope you get a little less broke.

[@AIofDarkness]

Just like any specialization, the work is done for those who come after the specialist, until the combined works come together to create that one epiphany which changes the world. A multi-generational bridge leading to that one man's one moment when he finally learns how to apply all of the knowledge leading up to the discovery. Centuries, millenia of work for a single moment... and we all benefit from it afterwards. The truest benefit of being social creatures. Thanks for a beautiful video. :)

[@angvany5547]

I never liked doing math in my elementary and middle school days. I was placed in low end math classes and I was given an opportunity to progress up because my teachers thought I could do better. I declined because I felt comfortable doing simple math but as I took my first trigonometry class, I fell in love with math and found beauty in geometry and algebra. Right now I’m a taking a calc ll class and I am blown away with the techniques and thinking of people of that past did so that us in the present can build off it. I struggle quite a bit with math sometimes but i always find beauty in the topic when I find a solution.

[@farhansadik5423]

I'm 16 years old currently and the state exam is going on. My love for mathematics is something which I want to keep deep within my heart. This video was very nice (along with the memes) because it kind of pulled out the genuine questions I had about math, but it hadn't materialized inside me. You got a subscriber man!

[@swagmundfreud666]

I feel a similar way about my field of study, linguistics. When I ramble about it people assume I must be very smart. I'm not, just know a lot about linguistics. The field is again extremely specialized. The one advantage is that, in labs, you get to see people. You get to experiment on people. Field linguistics has always been my favorite for this reason, since you have to get really deeply involved in people's lives to do it. I make constructed languages (called Conlangs or clongs). I used to make naturalistic ones (clongs that are trying to look like real languages with fictional, but plausible, cultures of speakers). I stopped because nobody cared. Now I make joke languages. I've been working on a language that is spoken in the mouth of the listener (AKA kissing, except it's actually a lot more disgusting sounding). I have been torturing my girlfriend (lovingly) to be able to say a few words in it and when I pull it out, people lose their shit because it just looks so stupid. It's the most fun I've had in the field in years.

[@ОлесяСамылова-о5ц]

I’m a business-math major and idk I’ve always had a community that was interested enough in math of my level and (way) harder. I can’t say I’m actually good at math, it’s still possible for me to explain a stranger what I’m doing all days. But it was a great experience to be able to share your work and brainstorm with someone

[@adityakhanna113]

Came for the incendiary title wanting to yell about how collaborative it is, stayed for really good points about the academic isolation. Great video! And hi fellow Combinatorialist!

[@sheilarikas]

These comments made me realize how lucky I was to have found a friend that I can share my interest with math with. When I was in elementary I used to not care about math but it all changed in 6th grade when I couldn't keep still and can't sleep because I couldn't find out integers. This strange habit continued until 8th grade when I transferred schools, and met one of my closest friends right now. Our first conversation was him asking me if I knew how to make an atomic bomb (lol). Our conversations about History and Science turned into Math and Physics, and I couldn't be more grateful. I forgot just how much I loved math before he started talking to me about it, and I naturally grew more curious again. And now, every free time, we do this thing where we race to solve equations.

[@ScottDincorn]

I gotta say, your title shot for the Esotericism section at 2:09 is artistic as hell in an understated kind of way.

[@nasaexploration8378]

I do totally agree. I am a post graduate student in France learning math. In high school, I was on my own planet being passionate about math. But today I am not alone doing them. I have friends that likes math. We talk about math. It’s splendid. Great video

[@keyurkulkarni4011]

Great video! I loved the quote 'Abstraction is both : a great blessing & a curse' Oh yes, you earned a a new subscriber😊

[@FelipeV3444]

This is so true. It's partly why I became a software engineer after uni and why so many mathematicians specialize in applied mathematics rather than pure. It's such a beautiful discipline and yet can feel so pointless at times.

[@michaelc.4321]

6:10 love that this whole section is a Monogatari reference lmao. More seriously though, as someone with an education in math and physics, I often feel disappointed at not only how math is taught but the natural trends of how people attempt to learn math. In fact, one thing I have perceived with regards to this is that those who struggle with math the most are typically those playing along with the style it's taught; as a rote memorization of formulas and problem structures. What I mean is that those who struggle are invariably those who are just trying to perform rote memorization rather than actively trying to intuit the broader picture (losing the forest for the trees and whatnot). In this manner, I think there is not only a problem with teaching itself but also how we teach people to teach themselves

[@jordifabris5752]

I deeply appreciated the hard work that you put in the obvious proof at minute 2:56

[@nini_kys]

Me too lol... as someone who's in real analysis rn, I could only recognize the last names... not their theorems

[@wewladstbh]

2nd year pure math PhD student here - that quote at 4:00 sums up how I feel about undergrad so perfectly I'm going to steal it haha. Fantastic video in general

[@tofupowda]

this is a phenomenal mini essay. the never-ending struggle between theory and practical application

[@carrottt7223]

I am a math person. The "yeah thanks" at 0:19 is the most relatable thing ever

[@vasiledumitrescu9555]

I have just enrolled in Mathematics, i’m about to become a secluded monk and i’m proud of it

[@Humanbeing-p9f]

I'm lonely without doing anything

[@arthurmorgan2736]

Yes

[@gavinmoss1603]

i’m about 1 month from my math bachelors and i think you just taught me why i don’t feel that happy or proud of it

[@wrongermonk1065]

And as broke math student expanded his Domain, the math haters shrunk back in fear... All jokes aside, amazing video! I love it. Thank you for making such content.

[@Hobbicollector]

"But when a measure becomes a target, and when it becomes the highest goal, the pursuit of all other goals, including learning, suffers." Love this, kinda reassured me to keep going on my own way, lonely or not.

[@black.empiricist]

Thank you for this video! I am currently doing my masters thesis in a country were I feel people tend to smart shame people interested in Math, Science and Philosophy. So it's really hard for me to talk to other people what I want to talk about. Knowing that other people struggle with this, I am somewhat relieved that I can comfortably accept the fact that I am alone for the most part in my journey.

[@brokemathstudent]

There's always community to be found online; many interesting people to talk to :)

[@ilovezsig]

Judging by your third point you have probably already read it but A Mathematician's Lament by Paul Lockhart is an amazing book/essay.

[@Lazerstory]

I like how you put this problem I've been thinking about several times as a teacher : "When a measure becomes a target, and when it becomes the highest goal, the pursuit of all other goals, including learning, suffers.". I agree, but I've recently came to understand that there's not much we can do about it : exams are necessary to assess students' understanding of what we've been trying to teach them. Assessing this understanding is necessary to question our way of teaching and to insist on notions that have been poorly understood, but also to prevent a student from graduating when he/she doesn't have a sufficient level not to be completely lost in next year's courses. But alas, graduating is also necessary to gain knowledge and to prove that you've gained knowledge, so that's also often necessary for students to achieve their goals : be it earn a lot of money, make a positive difference in the world or just do what their parents expect them to do. And that's how grades become a goal to achieve rather than just a measure, and I don't see any solution to this problem.

[@brokemathstudent]

Thank you for your thoughtful comment! This is also a problem I've also been troubled by for a long time. The line you quoted was essentially Goodhart's law ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law ), so you may want to check that out if you're interested in these ideas. It's always difficult to balance between learning and all the needs of testing and accreditation, though I can't help but feel that the balance these days is tilted too much to the wrong side… Also, I am curious about how Finland, which allegedly has no standardized tests, handles such problems. (I plan on reading Jerry Muller's book _The Tyranny of Metrics_ (2018) one of these days.)

[@dysxleia]

I'm not that far into math yet (I'm taking ODE's for official coursework) but it is already hitting

[@dysxleia]

The good news is I'm only in mathematics as a minor right now. I am majoring in math education, so I am glad I will have an influence on real people, and many of them.

[@energeticgorilla]

@@dysxleiai know this may seem a bit personal of a question, but how is that working out for you? i want to be a math teacher and am currently a junior in high school, but im not sure if id rather go all the way through just math with a little bit of teaching curriculum, or to do what you did and major in education and also minor in math.

[@dysxleia]

@@energeticgorilla I am really enjoying it! If you want to teach it's worth getting experience with a lot of coursework on pedagogy and psychology in order to be effective. I'm lucky that my university offers lots of internship hours as well, so I'm practicing in the field every week. If you really like math, don't be afraid of taking several math classes. It is very hard (but not impossible!) to self-study really abstract subjects. The important thing is that learning math is not enough to learn how to TEACH math. Teaching is a trade in and of itself, and if you want to feel fulfilled and do an exceptional job, make sure you learn to teach at least as much as you learn to do math. If you want to do math research instead, then consider math as a main pathway. You'll be successful with whatever you choose. But my advice is if you want to teach, go all in on that. That's what it takes after all :)

[@BruceCooper-dc8bc]

It is quite comforting for one to hear his isolated thoughts from a fellow insider, so you know you're not in fact "alone". Specially enjoyed the quotes. Thanks.

[@DoxxTheMathGeek]

I know this sounds weird because it is so unrelated, but I never got to geek with anyone about math, then I joined the furry fandom, and in a few months I had 5 people who I could geek with that are hella smart too. Also the teaching thing is true. So many people hate math, and I completely get it. I love math, but when doing math in school, I hate it. "When someone understands something way to easily, they can often have a hard time teaching weaker students" this is also so true, sadly. Every time someone asks me to explain something, I do not get what their problem is, where they get stuck. But I know how they feel because I have exactly the same thing with other things. ;w;

[@ZEPHYRZHANG-mg8zi]

Furry

[@DoxxTheMathGeek]

@@ZEPHYRZHANG-mg8zi Yeah :3

[@connorthesandwich3188]

I am a math major with the goal of becoming a middle school math teacher. The idea of making math accessible and enjoyable to students of all backgrounds and abilities is a driving factor in my life. Loved this video

[@hellfishii]

As a data science engineer undergrad we often and almost always go to clases for pure math, statistics and applied math students for our program and I consider myself as an outsider that is just learning the lenguaje for the chance to understand them and apply for large data sets and complicated data this amazing and obscure concepts that actually helps us draw meaningful insights in “real world problems”. All is to say that indeed y find you all very frustrated and under appreciated for the immense amount of effort and dedication that requires to push the boundaries of math even further, and I found this particularly sad cuz I for example can easily do some cleaning of data, import some libraries and boom plot the results so “no technical” people can understand yet this is only an abstraction and oversimplification of the underlining math/Statistical concepts. Great video btw.

[@mrbrn20]

"And that capacity to be alone only serves to enrich those relationships we have with others" - well said :) I thought you made a very interesting comparison between music and math, how in music the technique serves the art, and how in math the technique is the art, and thus it seems more difficult for the layperson to be able to appreciate one's work in math. But I think I would qualify this viewpoint; music may be something of a special case, but in many, even most fields of work, the end, observable result is not terribly glamorous or interesting. To draw upon an example from my area of work, software engineering, a frontend engineer could point to buttons on a website that they helped to create - but that alone probably does not come across as "captivating" to other people, nor does it necessarily facilitate interesting conversation. (And a backend engineer would have an even more difficult time pointing to tangible things they have produced that other people can readily understand). But, I think what makes for much more interesting conversation, and a deeper level of emotional understanding by other people, is... perhaps a description of the human drama and processes involved in one's work. For example, I have only an amateur's background in math, but I have found interviews by Andrew Wiles and Tim Gowers and Terrence Tao on their experiences with research in math to be fascinating - although I do not understand any of the technical details of their work, they describe the broader contours of their efforts in accessible, very human terms - ex. the process of identifying fruitful questions, the setbacks and dead ends encountered in chasing after the solution to a problem, the general reasons that problems they work on are considered interesting by others in their field, and so on. The final point I would make is kind of aspirational in nature, it's a perspective I strive to believe in at times, and it is that the world is a very broad place, filled with innumerable interesting things and storylines, of which my own work comprises a very small part. It indeed is wonderful when I am able to vividly communicate my own experience to others, and to feel heard - but perfect understanding by others is far from necessary...I'd like to be able to also immerse myself in the storylines of the people around me, in the broader happenings of the world, and in amazing creations by other human beings - books, films, youtube videos, etc. And one consequence of doing so, is that I am able to relinquish myself from the confines of my work-consumed headspace - at its best, work can be interesting and engaging and even bring me peace, but it can also be suffocating on occasion - it is largely a matter of balance...

[@Wenternav33]

for Me math the easiest thing in school becaus its so simple. I just do not get why people find it so hard, its better then language

[@iwannabethekid34xc]

Literal opposite for me. It's the architecture of our brains. It's likely you possess what's called an Occipital bun, or "math bump." It's associated with a natural talent in understanding abstract subjects such as algebra, calculus, or any other higher level math. People like me are more language oriented, I learned to read as a very young boy at a very high level. It's just differences in brain structure, and human beings would be so boring without such intellectual diversity, no?

[@thatdude_93]

Uni math is nothing like school math

[@alejrandom6592]

1:22 cleaning up after a party is a genius analogy ngl

[@louimmature]

Great video love the insight and message I also love polyhedra

[@brokemathstudent]

shoutout to the associahedron

[@dragileinchen1485]

Bro, I was prepared for some math related meme video, but that shit was deep. Thank you for expressing my thoughts better than i could.

[@moritzw.2446]

I've come across the music - math analogy a few times now, regarding the trouble of exciting people outside your branch of interest. But does a musician playing their newest piece of art not run into the same issues? The theory behind and the creative choices made are mostly not understood or even recognized by non-musicians. Wouldn't they seem crazy/nerdy/lonely trying to excite people for why this music works, as well? Contemporary orchestral music oftentimes even fails to be liked by non-musicians for its highly theoretical and unusual concepts. Of course there is music that can be enjoyed by way more people(purely by listening to it) than Desargue's theorem, even though this can be explained visually. But there also is math that could neatly be visualized and therefore be admired, just by looking at the shapes or surfaces, loosing yourself in a high order of symmetry or repetition. This would not require any training in math. And aren't we doing this already when looking at paintings, architecture or even when listening to pleasing chords(in some way)? But still, this is definetley one aspect making math feel lonely sometimes. But maybe because it's more stigmatized than, for exmple, music, not because it is more loney in regards to "understandability"? Anyways, very beautiful math essay, gets the noggin joggin.

[@mlp4eva]

It's about the types of reactions and support you get.

[@brokemathstudent]

yeah, it's one of those cases where an understanding of the theory serves to deepen one's awareness and appreciation for a creation; the curve for math is just way steeper than for the arts. (and where math and art comes together is also a great place for public outreach; say with the gorgeous national museum of math in new york

[@LPSAllyawesome]

@@brokemathstudent i think that music is also much more publicly romanticized in how it acts in our culture, as ultimately an art. people always ask, "what genre do you listen to"? there is always music on the radio. it's just engraved culturally, unlike math which you mentioned does get a bad rep b/c of poor teachers and stigma. as a musician, i do relate to the loneliness of being in (what i think to be still ) a highly specialized field. regular people will not understand microtonality nor think it sounds good. there are countless epic and complex genres of jazz and rock that people will not try to understand. rich and culturally significant pieces are ignored by general western listeners (do you have that problem in math?). regular people can like jazz, but there's some forms of sound like John Cage's 4'33 that people then and still now just may not tolerate. sound and music are deep concepts even as art forms. it appeals to the senses, especially in performance. its physical its beautiful and entertaining. its trying to say something. and yes music and math should come together!

[@brokemathstudent]

​@@LPSAllyawesome i don't think it's as much of a problem in math since math people are quite meritocratic in the sense that a proof is a proof and you will be recognized for proving an important result no matter who you are or where you're from - i guess then that the nuance lies in what constitutes an "important result"; and if we take for example the Fields medal, often regarded as the top prize in mathematics, and won mostly by westerners, that could give some indication of how some math is considered more fashionable than others.

[@vinipoggers]

"When a measure becomes a target, and when it becomes the highest goal, the pursuit of all other goals, including learning, suffers.” You wrote that? That's amazing, it breaks down the whole concept in a single phrase

[@brokemathstudent]

it's a reference to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart's_law

[@CalculusDaddy]

This makes me want to befriend a mathematician.

[@Tstopmotion]

It doesn’t have to be lonily. You can collaborate on problems. You can attend seminars. You can write your paper at a level that thousands of people in your field of research can understand and ensure that the title, abstract, and introduction are understandable to tens of thousands of people in your field of combinatorics and hopefully outside of your field. Colloquium talks and survey papers can explain your area of research to all mathematicians and possibly scientists in other fields as well.

[@Kim-ej2xm]

Math is not lonely but we are

[@campbellmorrison8540]

Interesting how Fermat's Last Theorem by Simon Singh was a best seller though, that says to me that many people don't understand mathematics but they would like to get a little understanding of what its all about. I totally agree with you that the teaching needs to include why mathematics is so fascinating and relevant or not as the case maybe but also how the irrelevant became relevant and often changed the world. We seem to be able to sell the idea of being an astronaut and the mountain required to get to that level and yet we cant sell the idea of the possibility of changing the world through some clever maths. Go figure :)

[@phosphor3617]

holy shit you fucking nailed it, subbed

[@brokemathstudent]

Thank you! I’m happy that you enjoyed the video :) There’s still a lot I need to figure out - my audio recording and tone/cadence can be better, and I have a lot to learn about good video editing and sound design, among other things… But I figured the best way to improve was to just make stuff and put it out there with their imperfections rather than sit around trying to perfect something and end up not creating/sharing anything. Maybe I’ll do a video on perfectionism sometime

[@phosphor3617]

@@brokemathstudent the music analogy was on point as someone who does math now but was a musician back then. i like your idea of making a video on perfectionism because i feel like a lot of the people who are attracted to pure math are "bullet train" like people who are really obsessed go-getters but are really focused only on a bunch of stuff. im interested where you'll go with this

[@matthewmcq345]

I know there’s a bit of a stigma against applied mathematics among die-hard pure mathematicians. That said, as someone studying applied mathematics in college, I really love the intersectional nature of the discipline. Between CS, Economics, physics, and biology, there are so many different disciplines that I can learn about and connect with using math as a common thread between all of them. I 100% agree that pure mathematics can be insanely separated from everything else, but i was pleasantly surprised seeing stuff I learned in my abstract algebra class pop back up several semesters later in my cryptography class. As a math student, I think it’s safe to say that we can often get a bit “up our own asses” about math being “hard” and/or esoteric. Your line about people saying “I hated math when I was a student” really resonated with me, and I feel like that is the #1 failure of today’s education system. What I always try to explain to people who ask me why I like math is that it is pretty much humanity’s only “objective” way to describe the world around us. There is so much power in beauty in mathematics in and of itself as well as how it is used by humans, and I wish more people would be taught about the more beautiful, elementary side of math as opposed to topics that make people ask “when will I ever use this again?”

[@maxwalls8894]

bro you’re a monk

[@styrofoamsoldier]

As a more CS aligned guy who's always liked math, the fact that it's a game of abstractions is the best part!

[@vitrolavitor_3658]

Doing meth is lonely too...

[@butwhy4579]

I like the "lonely" offered by math its special, its wholesome, its possessive, I like math.

[@huzayfasyed5488]

Monogatari fan spotted

[@nahtE2004]

Aha ive never watched it but I like the music :) especially suteki meppou I think is playing? Just relaxing 🙃

[@whowantstognawonhumanbones]

HASTE,WE'RE OUGHT TROT TO LOOM OVER AND MOCK HIM

[@Omlet.official]

For some reason your video encouraged me into learning every brach of math

[@brokemathstudent]

that would take multiple lifetimes