Don’t Buy Old CNC Machines | CNC Repairman

[@manmachinemake3708]

I have a '91 Haas VF-1 (Plastic cabinet) as you called it. Bought it well used but also had personal knowledge of it's past 9 years. I have zero regrets as I couldn't touch a newer machine for 1\10th of what I paid. General rules apply to purchases of any and all used items. If we were to follow your guidelines, all used items in the world would be obsolete in a few years. Sorry man, but the world needs older used machines to start and keep the small businesses running.

[@gabbermaikel]

i think the point of the video is mostly towards the machines people buy for cheap that they dont know. So they dont know if it works, in what condition it is and how it has been used. If that haas wansnt working the cost of the machine might shoot up, and the price of the machine in working machine might not even be higher then the parts cost. And then its still a question how worn the machine is.

[@oldfarthacks]

The Haas VF1 (Very First 1, Gene and Kurt were going simple for a name) can be a good machine. Just remember one thing, Kurt designed all the electronics on that and then they built it all in house. Well, they still build it all in house, but that's gotten better. But the bare iron is good and so you can just hang a whole new control system on it. The encoders on the axis motors are standard. The only funky thing is that the spindle will run backwards if you hook it up as normal, again they guessed on motor direction when they did the initial software. Also. always check the wire nuts on the spindle motor. They had a left handed guy working on the line for a time and he was not trained, so he put on thousands by turning them the wrong way. OOPS.

[@manmachinemake3708]

@@oldfarthacks, So far I've had little to no trouble with the old girl. Aside from the typical needs/repairs that all machines will require, this has been a great unit. I did a full once over when i got it in 2020 and refurb'd a lot of stuff like way cover wipers, tool changer doors, all oiling and air lines etc. The only major repair so far was the need to replace the original failing VFD last year with a new Hitachi micro drive which is perfect except for their miniscule wiring connection points. My only regret was not buying the single phase version as it would have allowed me to leave the 20hp rotary off !

[@funone8716]

If I listened to any of this advise, I wouldn't have any profitable retrofitted machines in my shop (I have several, a couple I got, yes, for free) and I'd just watch TV all day. LOL I'm not the guy that was afraid to learn about industrial electronics on my own. I've never called any CNC repairman and I NEVER WILL

[@benjaminmiller8072]

Exactly! Same here

[@prestonian1066]

@@benjaminmiller8072 Oh good for you man! Sometimes people ignore good advice and get lucky, well done again. For every 1 that got lucky, 10 didn't, but they don't boast about it. it's a bit like the old man who smoked for 70 yrs without any problems.

[@newagetemplar6100]

Quite right and I bet you don’t have a big fiancé maintenance contract bill to pay for too at the end of every month . There’s nothing wrong with dropping on a cheap machine and replacing an encoder/ board or swapping the odd diode . 👍🇬🇧

[@christianheidt5733]

That's how you do it! Like a g! I've retro fitted quite a few in my day as well

[@zunrue1]

I'd kill to find a free one, even if it's a project.

[@jonnydeen6952]

When you said old bridgeport and the machine pictured was younger than mine I near spat out my coffee. To be fair my 1990 bridgeport 720x with tnc2500 has been great. Sure it's slow and plodding but It's still earning its keep with minimal problems. Now to go contemplate all of my life decisions after just buying a 94 haas vf1 🙃

[@jenpsakiscousin4589]

I still run a V2xt and a vmc1000 pretty frequently. Still make good parts, u get used to the weird quirks of the DX32 after a while. Keeps your hand coding skills sharp. Just baby your BMDC board and keep the cabinet clean.

[@harrelsontrumpets]

I just passed on a 2012 Matsuura LS-160 with only 1000 spindle hours. After talking to two different knowledgeable techs, I passed on an amazing deal because there were too many unknowns. It turns out Matsuura only built two of these machines with this configuration including a 40k rpm spindle and Siemens control, which could mean replacement parts are literally not available anywhere. The estimated cost to replace the spindle was $100k. Even though we have been very successful buying used machines in the past, we're pulling the trigger on a brand new mill/turn to prevent the headaches associated with buying used machines with B-axis misalignment and other common issues. Great video! 👍

[@MrCantabrigian]

I know this is more geared towards new/home shop guys but I've built my business over the last 13 years by buying old kitamura and Tsugami machines, fixing what needed to be fixed and making great parts and a ton on money with them. Admittedly (not trying to brag) I probably have more repair experience than most machinists as I used to build CNC machines in a past life, but I own all my own iron, have never had a loan payment on any of it and find it a great business model for me. My oldest is a Tsugami live tool CNC turret lathe from 1978 with Fanuc 3t that holds ridiculously tight numbers, newest is a kitamura 2xif sparkchanger from 2007 with Fanuc 16i. I've also got Fanuc 6T, Yasnac i80 and okuma. I did start with Heidenhain controlled bport interact machines and was making great $ cutting 6al4v to all day on them...

[@cncrepairman]

Love it! Great story thanks for sharing!

[@MrCantabrigian]

@@cncrepairman love your content, please keep up the great work!

[@dannlaboratory]

I had half of those machines from the list, I still have Hitachi VM40II, EMCO lathe and VMC from '85 and Matsuuras although retrofitted, old Mazak SQT15, Cincinnati, two Colchesters on 0T fanuc contol, 2004 haas and so on. I have built over 200 machines in my life but I have slightly different experience, and believe those machines are killers if you know it's basics. I can understand why hobbysts shouldn't buy those machines lol anyway I like what you are doing, great job!

[@markrainford1219]

Some of your machines are older than this presenter. 😂

[@dannlaboratory]

@@arequepay I retrofit machines by myself, you can check my X, I posted there Matsuura MC600V

[@taxicamel]

None of the machines mentioned are for "hobbyists". They are ALL heavy industrial ....and typically need power that no "hobbyists" home have. This video is presented by someone who knows NOTHING about machining. A "repair man". Nearly every one of the machine makes are in fact very good "IRON" ......something that is either very hard to find these days or extremely expensive new. Go ahead and buy an "old" machine with the knowledge of the condition that it is in and with every intent of replacing electrics and electronics ....only if the iron is in fact intact. There is NOTHING better than a solid heavy machine for making chips. Today's machines of this caliber ARE expensive. If you find they are NOT expensive, be careful and find out "why". Yesterday's machines can ALL be retrofitted which is almost automatically an upgrade. They have typically made there original cost back many times over so they should NOT be expensive. When you find "Haas" machines ....and there's lots of them .....know what you are buying. "Haas" is NOT a heavy-duty machine. Never has been and never will be ....but if you're machining non-ferrous, you don't need "heavy-duty". Know what you need and know what you are looking for. You can ignore about 95% of what this repairman is saying. Old machines mentioned are SOLID and typically heavy FOR A REASON! .

[@CNCMachinistEducationNetwork]

Cool video - I worked at a couple of machine tool dealers. I have my own opinions on what is ok and what is not. I started CNC machining in 1985 1) brands i would consider - the Japanese standards - Mori - Matsuura - Kitamura - Okuma - US standards - Haas & Fadal From early 90s and up. 2) If it is RUNNING and you see it - a Good sign (the control is a problem area if it is NOT working - forget it) 3) Know that the older machine control have limited CNC controls. You CAN NOT do advanced Cadcam techniques like adaptive or dynamic milling. The program sizes are tiny and how do you get the program in to the machine. 4) the US machines have a good user support system - so easier to fix. But they were less expensive machines when new and have a lifespan - unlike a 1990 Mori seiki that was built to a higher standard. ex: of one I recommended was a 1993 Matsuura 510 with yasnac control that was running with tooling in an auction - he bought for 5k

[@matthewbarry376]

In regards to getting a modern CNC program into an old CNC machine. You can use a Single board computer or just an old Thinkpad to dripfeed the code into the machine.

[@taxicamel]

You really got hung up on Japanese. Most ALL European machines were just as good or better. Remember, ...ALL the controls internals were initially GERMAN ...Siemens. GE controls were a side-player only. Milacron did their own thing. Haas is not and never was ...a heavy machine. The number of times I heard of a Haas unable to disengage a tool after a very heavy cut, regardless of the taper size ....a very clear indication of the vibration screaming through the entire machine. .

[@CNCMachinistEducationNetwork]

there just are not that many euro machine in the USA @@taxicamel

[@markman7]

Company I worked for bought 2 1984 Mori Seiki MV45/40's with Fanuc 11m controls after running production 7 years at a foundry. That was in 1991, and they're still running today on the original ballscrews and untouched servos. Precision has suffered in some areas of the bed, but they're still making chips. Those Mori Seikis were tanks back then.

[@taxicamel]

Machines that are not overloaded and properly maintained WILL last "forever". Remember, this video guy is a "repair man" ....NOT a machinist. .

[@robertlees2065]

Rule #1 of buying a used machine should be if you can't see it powered on walk away. Rule #2, make sure it has all the manuals. Rule #3, expect to have to do some work, even in the best case you'll probably spend hours doing cleaning that the previous owner neglected to do. Buying used machines can be a great option providing you get them at a good price relative to their age and use which pretty much rules out Haas as they generally seem to be overpriced used, often significantly so in my opinion.

[@funone8716]

Rule #4, if they give it to you or sell it for below scrap value, ignore rule #1

[@mesikamoto]

Amen

[@cncmechtech]

I'll take any Fanuc between a 0 and 16/18/21i-A before I'd ever think of anything newer. Pretty much everything in that range can be repaired without a Fanuc service call and parts are readily available for reasonable prices. Any newer control and you start going downhill fast because of all the protections (AKA service call money grubbing controls) they started putting in. I have an entire shop built around used machines (CNC router, 4 and 5 axis machining centers, turning center, surface / profile grinder with 4th axis). I've had zero major duds and none were able to be inspected under power but you ABSOLUTELY MUST KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR. Take the following with you to inspect a machine: dial test indicators on mag bases a small prybar a portable compressor a keen sense of smell a mechanics stethoscope multimeter / megohm meter Make sure you have adequate time to inspect anything you are considering buying if it can't be powered up. With those tools and some time (plan on it taking at least an hour, maybe two), you can visually, audibly, and electronically observe while pressing, tugging, spinning, and pressurizing things. Check motors with a megger. With a careful inspection, you can rule out a LOT of potential problems. There's always some risk, but you can often avoid buying a clapped out piece of junk with a little attention and common sense and get yourself into some full size industrial iron for about the same money or even less than people are paying for overhyped hobbyist grade toys these days. I built a very capable shop full of CNC equipment and never had to borrow a nickel to do it.

[@Rhine_Labs]

Old electronics can be repaired and some schematics are also available. I hate the moderns stuff with custom marked or ground off chips numbers and no schematics.

[@dejanvanevski4399]

I own couple of retrofitted hurcos and I like them, I don't have problems with memory, high speed machinning, repairs, tolerances.. Now I will get another one

[@awfab3517]

Was thinking about buying a Hurco Hawk CNC Mill 5m and hooking it up to a new controller maybe new servos if I have to. Am I getting in over my head its only 500 bucks.

[@dejanvanevski4399]

@@awfab3517 if you are trying to start new workshop,it's better solution than buying new vmc and throwing 100k.This way you can feel market and than go for a serios machine.I work only with retrofited vmc and get no problems,I own 5 hurcos and like them.

[@wakelessfoil]

To be fair we bought a yuasa Accumill from 1982 and besides the extremely limited memory, using the machine has been a delight. We don’t mind fixing things when it breaks. I wouldn’t want this old machine to end up in the dump as it’s a piece of history. Also I don’t have $300k for a new machine (or anything else really!)

[@galactica1980]

Nothing wrong with fanuc 0-C controls or yellow cap DC servos, they are bullet proof and well supported. The other tip is to make full data backups asap.

[@BobWill1846]

Oh bless you. just two months ago we had to cough up £4000 for repairs, cause of a design flaw in the electronics.

[@kingofl337]

4 grand isn’t much it the machine is making that a week.

[@BobWill1846]

@@kingofl337 That is a great thing if it is making you 4 grand a week for you.

[@hectorgomez8653]

Disagree. I’ve purchased early Moris SL25s that still hold tolerance. Fadals are workhorses and have great support.

[@andrewgiles6192]

It's all a balance, if you are fixing a machine, you aren't making money. I bought a really bad haas, and a really good one. It's very hard to tell them apart.

[@sean7193]

Hey Andrew. What was the bad one? I'm looking at a 2000 model year hass mini mill. I have no idea if it's a bad idea. What should I be looking out for ? Thanks for any advice. Cheers.

[@nikolaiownz]

As someone who started with Old 80 90 machines in my shop. I am glad that i am getting closer and closer to not having Old machines. You cant run a shop on Old Machine that break Down every other day.

[@jasonhill2180]

I have a 99 Hurco Hawk that's been running great for several years. Old isn't necessarily bad. Get what you can afford and enjoy it.

[@thunderthormx]

We have bought 2 old Mazak quick turns and they needed a little work but they have been very good machines for the money. I'm positive they are a much better lathe than a newer haas lathe.

[@bsf225]

Great advice. Most people don't have the skills to maintain or repair those machines themselves. And if they do, and parts are obsolete.......

[@pa6370]

Oddly everything that I've needed for my 1983 Fanuc 6 based VMC has been in stock at Fanuc, somewhere in the Fanuc world. Horrified at the price, but not unreasonable for a machine in production.

[@toddsutton5672]

Lol, great comments. Most people buying old iron know what they are getting into. I myself got a 1989 milltronics fixed head knee mill machine was in great mech shape execpt for the head bp style j2.I gutted that installed a 1-1 microvee with a vfd motor installed all new controller and servos back in 03. its more than paid for itself. im now retired and just make stuff for myself. it still runs great.

[@jasongamer8649]

You listed nearly every brand lol. Also you didn't define old, just said slow, Haas controls are slow to this day :p so now what. This could definitely use a long detail series. Any solid recommendations?

[@AshersVids]

Fadal from the 90s with box ways. Solid machine. Parts are easy to get. More reliable than my Kitamura.

[@jessejensen6427]

You are a absolute legend, beginning montage was gold!

[@Whitehorze]

Fun Fact: Bridgeport Torq-Cut machines can be rewired to run on single phase power. The DX32 control is a dinosaur, but there are still plenty of users out there in the forums.

[@GeneralChangFromDanang]

And a couple of suppliers of new boards still exist.

[@CarbonGlassMan]

We have a pair of old 5 axis CNC routers. We were told it would cost $50k to get them running again. They are so large it will cost $10k to move them from one of our buildings to our other building 1/4 mile down the street.

[@hrodd2]

A person has to see it run under power. I have had excellent luck with Milltronics. There are several local technicians that work on them. Have 2 old VMC's, running on single phase and they do not quit. A few simple replacement parts along the way, nothing major. I also have an old SL1 Morei that has been upgraded to a modern control. Works awesome. New is great but $$ Am currently considering upgrading to a machine that is less than 30 years old!

[@darrenconway8117]

My workshop is full of old tools and machines because I cannot afford new. One of the dinosaur machines I have is a 1970's Nardini manual lathe. It came from a University technicians workshop (no students). I retrofitted it with VFD, safety controls, LEDs etc. It is great. My one piece of advice when looking for old iron, is do your research and know the history of the machine. When I buy an old machine, first task is to clean it and new oil.

[@jasonruch3529]

Too 😁 funny, I bought a 1985 mazak vqc20-50b with the m2 control for 3 grand ,,when I took a truck to go get it they had it powered on and acted in a rush. Then 1 of the guys said shut it off before something else goes wrong 🙄 😒. The machine weighed 2 ton more then the manual said....so ya....rigging costs more then the machine. I know mazaks pretty well so I was happy to put some elbow grease in it. Lasted 2 years n I sold it cheap because I needed to get it out of my works old shop since ce we were bought out. I say if you know how to fix em. And most importantly you have the time go for it. If you don't know how to do repairs buy a new machine! Lol. I run a 1998 Cincinnati horizontal (magnum 800) with acramatic 950 Control that can still run circles around these newer ones , I can put a part anywere on the pallet, probe for center, and the control follows it however I spin the pallet !!! NO G43 because it automatically calls up length with the tool in the spindle. I love it! We just rebuilt everything, all new seals, spindle bearings, hydrolic pump, (coolant got into hydrolic oil because thru coolant seal went bad) new pallet seals, new way covers.....it's brand new.......almost....hahahahahaha but I have 60hp , new thrust bearings in (z) and (y) too! NOW.......IF I COULD ONLY GET IT TO STAY ON AND NOT SHUT OFF!!!! hahahahahahaahaa dam (current exceeded alarm) can't make up its mind,,,,goes from y,z,b,and p (the tool changer) ..If i leave the cabinet doors open it runs fine then.........no alarming out..........P.O.S..... ..hehehehehe

[@DavidBlack-c8n]

Thanks for coming over today and firing up my 1985 okuma 5v nc. Im thankful it went good. I think I got the right machine for my needs. It could be a stepping stone for the next. Okuma wasn’t on your list of turds also

[@josephgerads9057]

You might try a trade that better suits you like take up ballet. You already have the dancing around part down.

[@voltmeter2]

For me a old machine would be a Motch two spindle with a Bendix control what fun!!! While troubleshooting you touch a test point and the slides take off. Also a 3SCL Warner Swasey with the GE stand up 1050 control. That control could have 3 or 4 system tapes. You work on the tape reader for 3 hours to get it working 3 tapes load perfect the 4th tape load half way and stops. Now you have to start all over. I am sure there are folks here that can relate to this.

[@dylanschulz2404]

Fadal is pretty easy and cheap to fix on your own with plenty of parts suppliers. Not sure why it made the list.

[@cncrepairman]

Don’t think I explained that one correctly. Older Fadals with worn out box ways and turcite can be a money pit.

[@dylanschulz2404]

@@cncrepairman yep! Your blanket statement about no memory and slow/clunky describes it pretty well though! lol

[@danneumann3274]

i have 2 fadals. Ive run them for four years and have had no major issues other than a screen and a few minor things. A bit slow on the tool change , but they work great for me. I wouldnt dare interpolate a full circle and expect to hold .001.

[@dazaspc]

I laughed at the only ever machined aluminum, it is probably the hardest wearing material to machine including cast iron. I know I worked with it for many years. I have worked with some nightmare equipment over the years and sometimes its the simplest thing that will just cause nightmares. Slide way covers, Turkite de lamination and dodgy through tool coolant systems, pulleys with uneven wear all classics. I still remember the first Fadals I saw and was amazed at just how cheaply they were built. Stuff like guides and rollers in the tool change that would barely be adequate for a kitchen draw let alone a machine tool. Air cylinders filled with oil without a dashpot in the system just to save a proper hydraulic pack and an electronics system that genuinely looked like it was assembled from a Radio Shack catalog. 2 speed spindles that would swap belt tension units to change speeds instead of a gearbox. I wont go on the PTSD is catching up. I have always said that if the machine tool dealers don't want it they are rarely worth fixing.

[@bigbattenberg]

Interesting! Why is aluminum so hard? Because of the high speeds and feeds or is the material itself abrasive? Or something else? Thanks!

[@dazaspc]

@@bigbattenbergpretty simple the surface is covered in Aluminum Oxide. You know the same stuff they make grinding wheels out of. It is also mostly machined at much higher speeds swarf impact alone adds to the wear.

[@bigbattenberg]

@@dazaspcah yes that makes total sense, never thought of it that way.

[@JayVon_Ro]

I only buy fadals. Wouldn't buy anything else, tho. Parts are available, and you have 2 modern control upgrade paths to choose from. Made tons of money on my Fadals.

[@danneumann3274]

I have 2 fadals in my shop. Great machines . they run problem free (so far)

[@JayVon_Ro]

@Dan Neumann Hell yea brother! Best if luck to you. They will probably last for another 20 years if you keep PM on point and upgrade to Calmotion or NexGen

[@syon2009]

buy them, and then convert them by upgrading the electrical, controls, and mechanicals....you'll be glad you did.

[@QuebecoisSti]

Best is to get an used machine that parts are still available (company still running and support) but you retrofit the electronics to newer stuff. So you get the heavy strong old machine frame but have modern newer electronic controller for it. Best of both worlds.

[@taxicamel]

Spoken by someone who know NOTHING about machining. A "repair man". Nearly every one of the machine makes are in fact very good "IRON" ......something that is either very hard to find these days or extremely expensive new. Go ahead and buy an "old" machine with the knowledge of the condition that it is in and with every intent of replacing electrics and electronics ....only if the iron is in fact intact. There is NOTHING better than a solid heavy machine for making chips. Today's machines of this caliber ARE expensive. If you find they are NOT expensive, be careful and find out "why". Yesterday's machines can ALL be retrofitted which is almost automatically an upgrade. They have typically made there original cost back many times over so they should NOT be expensive. When you find "Haas" machines ....and there's lots of them .....know what you are buying. "Haas" is NOT a heavy-duty machine. Never has been and never will be ....but if you're machining non-ferrous, you don't need "heavy-duty". Know what you need and know what you are looking for. You can ignore about 95% of what this clown is saying. Old machines mentioned are SOLID and typically heavy FOR A REASON! .

[@patdudley7635]

Looking at an old Storebro CNC Combi Mill with Heidenhain TNC 155 controller. If I buy it, I would want to get rid of the controller and fit a modern pc based controller. Not sure what these are worth in very good condition ?

[@taylorcurtis6187]

Why would you avoid fadal? They still supply all the parts and have support right?

[@pa6370]

He's found more lucrative machines to repair.

[@bobw53jrma]

The 80's and early early 90's, I'd avoid them too. And I love Fadals. They make me a lot of money. I might take a chance on a late 80's/early 90's if its been upgraded to at least the 16 bit control, I think that was -5, it has to have the space bar menus... . Just like with a car, I don't want one that they only sold a few of. (Actually, I do, but for daily transport, I want something common). . They made a TON of Fadals and they were basically the same for a long time. Fadal proper has been out of business for about 20 years.. I consider that when MAG bought them, they were out of business, because MAG destroys every single thing they have ever touched. . I'm doing belts, idlers, and a ballscrew today.. And I had my choice of about 4 different places to buy those parts, there is not another single machine tool out there that claim that.. . Parts and support. I can go on a machining message board at 2am on a Sunday morning and ask a question, and have an answer by 2:30, they are that common. Then I can order literally any part or board on the entire machine Monday morning(from multiple sources), and have it by Tuesday and be up and running by Wednesday.. I can call any of those multiple sources and get FREE tech support. . The manuals are written in English, and if they don't come with the machine, they are free online. . Yeah, they aren't rockets, the tool change can put you to sleep, the rapids aren't life altering or heart stopping.. The linear machines are pretty floppy, but they are pretty damn accurate.. The 2 speed head with a true 15hp can drive some serious metal removal. The box machines aren't the best, but they are pretty solid, keep your bellevilles in good condition, your ways adjusted and your thrust bearings in good condition and set properly and they will move double digit cubic inches a minute in almost any steel. And then turn around and interpolate a bore within a .001"(if your servos are adjusted correctly and backlash set correctly). Not at 120ipm, but it'll do it.. . They aren't for every shop, but they work really well for me. The Fisher Price of machine tools, and I'm OK with that.

[@vrdengineering5204]

Old kitamuras, mori Seikis, and matsuras are beasts. The rest of your shitlist is fine. Yasnac/ yaskawa has excellent support as well.

[@METHIERO]

Old matsuuras are workhorses, i know a few from the 80's running with not complains holding good tolerances...

[@speedmuller7377]

my mtasuura mc500 from 1986 still runs grate, with yasnac mx2, bur very limited memory, but i dripfeed it:)

[@jbwalker841]

I started my career on old Matsuuras that were older than I am. 22+ years later, I dealt with a customer who had one of those same old machines still running strong. My experience with matsuuras is that they are very accurate, very rigid, and very reliable.

[@jenpsakiscousin4589]

I have no problem with the older Bridgeport cnc machines. boss, DX32, e z trak etc. finding parts these days is a challenge, especially drive amps and the like.

[@terrencewilsonpoopoo]

Thank you for good applicable advice man. The info is always useful

[@MF175mp]

I got 2 old Mori's from 1987. Still Not dinosaurs imo. Red servos, pretty fast moves, can run drip feeding, etc. But I'm not trying to convince you all to buy them. I got them both for about scrap iron value in working condition.

[@ronblack7870]

in my area the only fast service i can get is from haas so i have 5 vf4's . am looking for a vf6 to replace a year 2000 machine i bought brand new ( my first cnc) which is now having problems. i'm in western ny and the machine builder is in toronto so getting any onsite service is pretty much not available. it was a good machine for us till now .

[@elkvis]

What do you know about the Comet VMC-1000P? The welding shop I work in has one, and they're trying to sell it. Might be able to get it cheap.

[@douglasrizzo9210]

Strange, I can still get parts for my 1986 Mori.

[@deathminuteindecimal]

found a cincinnati milacron from 1986 for 100 bucks on ebay, should i get it?

[@Enrios]

Shop i work at has 1 CNC mill. Retrofit. 20 tool carousel with 18 SECOND tool change. Negligible profit margins.

[@EnlightenedSavage]

Disagree with most of the machine you say stay away from. It just depends on what you are willing to do and if you can inspect it first. Old Cincinnatis are great by the way.

[@tanner3801]

I agree. What he's saying means much less to people who actually know how to work on machines. Many machinists apparently have near zero troubleshooting and repair ability (that was apparent when I bought my Arrow from a shop who gave up on their cincinnati's and the starting problem was not at all difficult to troubleshoot with the schematic). I think cincinnati's are among the best deals these days, if you can do basic electronic troubleshooting and repair, and 1990's computer maintenance & repair (not hard). Kollmorgen drives are the exception, where Fives & Kilroy still have a monopoly on that market...

[@CncObsession]

Funny I hadnt ever seen your channel. Where were you?

[@Ketsuban171]

Would you say the same applies to Swiss-style machines and how old is too old in your opinion? I've looked at Tornos, Citizen, Star, Tsugami, Hanwha, Traub, Nomura, Manurhin, Mori-Say. We need bar capacity of 25-32 mm. Preferably 3 channels (12 axis) but two channels (8 axis) is fine too. No need for B-axis. Budget 100000€. Im mostly concerned with how to get support for those machines in Sweden. I know I can get support for Tornos so im leaning towards those but my boss wants a Citizen. What do you think? Any other brands I should look at?

[@cncrepairman]

Tornos is great! Service is very important when it comes to running a shop.

[@elimeir8558]

Lol you sound like me when I was repairing cars for a living. Thanks for the video

[@JayVon_Ro]

I own a 1998 Fadal 3016 w/4th box way. A 1997 Fadal 6030. A 2001 Sharp SV3220. And a 2005 Haas st10t. I wouldn't trade my Fadals for a brand new Haas even if it were free. I plan to upgrade to a NexGen for both machines. Once I do that It'll wipe the floor versus a Haas chatter city. Eventually, it'd be nice to grow into some Doosans. (DN Solutions now)

[@DavidRobertsOfficial]

I have a 2008 4525 fadal with a cal motion control, works great. Acceleration is slow still but I can do hem Toolpaths without banging around now.

[@Poncho-dd2pl]

Just bought a 4020 yesterday. First machine first shop!

[@andriuskunigiskis3392]

Hello, how about micron wf 32 c and i wanna change all electronic, put on it dynomotion mother bord and controlling it with it. But old servo engine is very hard to connect with new bord?

[@deltacx1059]

I mean a old Bridgeport machine seems solid enough to just convert to CNC, you won't have all the fancy features or be able to hammer it as hard as a dedicated machine but its a good start and easy to get rid of when you are done

[@SavageSmithy]

Dunno about milling machines but I've currently got 2 cnc routers, one is 2017 with very low hours and the other one is 1994 with thousands of hours that cost 1/10th as much as the other one Wanna guess which one never skips a beat and which one is a pain in the arse? I'm gonna stick with old school

[@timcunningham9997]

You need more experience to have this kind of opinion . Tons of these machines in our system. BUT I do agree that the MFG that are out of business i.e. Hitachi Seiki , Cincinatti, but all the Fadal still have good support . His statement is to broad in my opinion

[@idranktoomuch2]

I got a 95' haas vf0 for 8k and a free 95' atlas copco rotary screw compressor (retails around 20k), saw it running and indicated the table/spindle, checked all functions, id say its a good deal but didnt take into account getting a rotary phase converter $1700 (lucked out and got a cnc balancing one off some guy on craigslist) moving costs ($2500) then had to do all the 3 phase wiring ($300) air lines ($200) get tooling (around $800) coolant/lube ($120) then all the misc stuff (fuses, gaskets, etc. $200), so around $14k all said and done, still probably need to replace some stuff, small air leak on spindle and keep getting some 121 low lube pressure alarms. If you are a mentally ill machinist/engineer who wants to make a modest income but love creating go for it, if you're looking to make $$$ and dont really care for machining/building things STAY AWAY, this trade will fking destroy your life! Anyway, awesome vids man, really appreciate you taking the time, some good close up shots would be nice but no biggie just a suggestion, much appreciated brother

[@tfxreference8562]

what weird skitzo shit is this? The world pays well for people who build things. Gtfo.

[@devinpeck101]

lol my fadal is absolutely a dinosaur. Cheap to fix though……. So far

[@173roberto]

I also have a Fadal but I don't hate it. Actually I feel is pretty good workhorse

[@Lenebm75]

I run an entire factory with old machines. If I had taken the advice from this video I would not have had a working shop. I have learned to repair on my own machines, as CNC repairmen are way too expensive, and from what I hear there are no less repairs on new machines, just way more expensive repairs on them.

[@tfxreference8562]

We retrofit old mill bodies with brand new electronics, motors, rails and screws if need be, and fresh paint. This guy can take his weird facial expressions and go away.

[@arequepay]

I have an old but in very good mechanical & electronic condition Matsuura MC500V (yasnac 3000G CRT) ! which is running great in DNC mode using a Laptop and BTR card, I'm planning a Retrofit for the next year, someone has experienced upgrading it ?, what CNC-CPU-Software brand do you recommend ?

[@AshersVids]

Need to change your name to new CNC machine salesman. My newest machine is 24 years old. Old Fadals have great support. I have always been able to find replacement parts.

[@john1987742]

you are wrong! any of old machine can be retrofitted with modern electronics, sevos, etc. no need to buy original parts, choose any from china, japan, europe...

[@funone8716]

This!

[@radioflyer87]

Rather have a old Mazak with mits electronics .... still can get every part and there's plenty of electronic repair places that fix the boards

[@173roberto]

Dude I bought a dinosaur Fadal VMC15XT. I want to learn how to repair cnc machines, there is a huge opportunity here where I live repairing Haas, Fanuc, Mitsubishi.

[@ReiniGrauer]

I don't get the hate on Fadals. Mine has paid for itself so many times over. It doesn't break often, and when it does it's literally the easiest CNC on the planet to fix. All the manuals and schematics are free online. All the parts are available and reasonably priced. There is a large community of DIYers around them that share helpful info about running and fixing them. And they can be run single phase no problem. Sure they are slow dinosaurs, but a cheap Fadal is still faster and better than any Tormach or Haas mini mill by a good amount.

[@173roberto]

@@ReiniGrauer I have a 1997 VMC15XT and love it. How can I have the manintenance manual?. I said dinosaur because it is old and slow but for sure is stronger than a Haas of the same size. I agree with you, if I could I would buy a big fadal with chip auger.

[@b.snoodleman5864]

Basically what they are saying is avoid everything "old", "obsolete control system" from any band. If your not mechanically inclined and somewhat computer illiterate, this is good advice but that also eliminates any and all hope of getting a reasonably priced machine that is affordable. In simple terms if your not a gear head don't buy an old car to restore.

[@Erik-gg2vb]

I was given an 1996 haas VF6 that the company gave up on. They remove the old CRT for another machine to use but the reason they stop using it was HAAS gave them a price to fix all the problems was to high. I recharged the N2 balance cylinders and the low lube spindle oil was because the motor/pump drive cushion had rotted away. Old brushed axis motos but runs like a charm. You are right about Cincinnati Milicron. I bought an Arrow 500 new in 95', PC based and they have no support for the machine the battery to hold memory are in the IC's soldered into the PC boards. I replaced one but years ago the other went out and had to sent the board to Cincinnati to get reflashed. It still does not work and no one in Los Angeles works on then. It just takes up floor space now. It is like brand new. I'm a Fabricator mainly.

[@a10l56]

1984/87 Kitamura mycenter builder here checking in! I hoard all the BT35~

[@cncrepairman]

Hey Awesome! Are you from Japan? I love Kitamura machines. Thanks for watching the video.

[@a10l56]

@@cncrepairman negative, from SoCal. There are a lot of Japanese writtings on those older manuals though, all hand drawings digarams & hand writing, really old school and cool.

[@Bubblyhiccups]

Old 90s mazaks are some of the easiest machines I’ve ever worked on. parts are still available and not very expensive

[@adamx7312]

Good to weigh the pro/cons, and funny vid. However 3:30 to 3:45 is needed for new CNCs, too.

[@stickyfox]

I've never heard a machinist talk like this. I've heard "it's got an old-ass controller that uses RS232 but it's super rigid" or "it's all beat to heck but it'll hold a thou." I don't think people who talk like this should be around *any* type of CNC machinery.

[@neubauer.p]

we had a bunch of old mori sl25s, they are so freaking robust, all the idiots were assigned to them because they cant even harm the damn things. no real issues ever. a really old, like 1986 or around it hitachi seiki got delivered to us from a FLOODED workshop. we bought it for parts as we had a few similar machines. the fanuc cards were at the bottom of the cabinet, in standing water. we thought what the hell, lets fire it up. only the spindle motors bearings were locked up, apart from that, the machine was operational. you could see the water line on the nc cards :D i think they are very dependable workhorses

[@joshuahuman1]

Just needs a good clean and a coat of paint an it’s as good as new

[@ShaneClendennen]

we have a umc750 and a umc1000 both C axis rotates past 360° as well as the A axis on our 4th axis. how can I fix this? it take a long time for it to unwind.

[@derekmark3847]

Hold up.......old Moris????? I'd agree with almost anything else here.

[@exol511]

Local repairmen say the same. Stay away from anything really old and Japanese. Very hard to get parts for.

[@chauvinemmons]

I'd have an old yasnac NC machine any day over a fanuc. Only thing you need then is a teletype tty. 33 or 43

[@Dumascain]

Talking about old machines. There is a machine in our shop manufactured Jan 88. Comes complete with working paper tape reader.

[@MrFastFarmer]

Love the intro

[@KlasJanzen]

Different rules for different people. Here is what I did. first I bought an old FADAL 1980 or so with a budget of less than 10k and I pulled out all wires and motors. replaced them with 1.5kw ac servomotors from SZGH in china and I controlled them with MACH-4 It's an open source software and can do anything that your cnc can with the acceptation that windows sucks in a cnc. and yes it made me profit and in 15 months I bought a HAAS VF5 with a budget of $80k

[@idus]

Yea you shouldn’t be machining if you are staying away from those older machines. I have a fadal15 and old mori seiki cl20. Tolerances were 3 tenth’s on mori and 3thou on fadal. Retrofitted both and kept them running at today’s demands using xometry to put them to use. If you get a deal, take it. You will learn a lot about machining. Not just how to push buttons. These older machines allow entry level machinists opening a new show to have great rigidity at a great price.

[@Sketch1994]

You didn't mention anything about an ancient liquidated Heller BEA1 with 140 tools and an 8 pallet pool changer that looks to probably been running off a reel to reel drive...Am I in the clear?

[@ypaulbrown]

sounds like an NC machine

[@mattbigham9954]

Where can I get parts for haas mill other than haas ?

[@ComfortablyNumb24]

Awesome video!

[@Sikhbuddy007]

I am looking for used CNC VMC.

[@bdkw1]

It all depends on how it was used. I've seen mori's run hard 24/7 for five years then sold off for penny's on the dollar as they were trashed.

[@varmint243davev7]

CONFIRMED, I bought a vintage Bridgeport DX32 CNC with 500 hours on it. If your not handy at fixing electronics, wiring an oversized VFD, fixing mechanical issues, familiar with older versions of DOS, know 386 computer hardware, able to image the HDD to a SD, swap the floppy to a USB to floppy adapter, able to RTFM and hand write your gcode using the canned milling cycles, have friends with rollbacks, fork lifts, and skates to get it in your garage, replace the RTC on the motherboard, and various assorted other things, a vintage machine may not be for you. Given all of that I am very happy with my machine and it is perfect for me. I don't have to make money with it to pay for it like I would if I have bought a Haas mini mill or similar.

[@Thewaldo12345]

Mazak: Say what about PC based controls?

[@ogaugeclockwork4407]

I brought a Colchester 3000L that had been sabotaged. Took a lot of fault finding to get it running! 😂

[@thomashenderson3901]

I had to get on the horse with what I could afford, otherwise I'd still be dreaming!

[@meadball1]

This is how I feel about Fadals

[@frankhuston2616]

Good video !!

[@Rossco139]

Awe man, but i wanna retrofit an old Matsuura :(

[@stephenpavlov8942]

I don't understand the used cnc machine market. Used machines seem to be so over priced. Ebay is almost all crooked 'machinery dealers'. Machines less than 5 years old are often listed for the price of a new machine.

[@MakeSomethingCNC]

I have an old haas abd it runs great. It's a 2000. Haas still has parts for them. Telling folks to not buy older cncs is the same as talking yourself out of a job especially when you sell cnc replacement parts. Come on man!

[@VolkCNC]

Guy just called his 2000 Haas old and I'm over here with my 1994..... 🤣

[@sean7193]

Hey man. I'm looking at a 2000 mini mill. Parts are still around? Anything I should watch for? Thanks!

[@joseantoniosolorzano4993]

What about a fanuc 0t control? not recommended?

[@MarcinKryszak]

I still have nightmares from OT

[@kevinlafarge6718]

i have kiwa excel with yellow motors...I really want to give up

[@cncrepairman]

I’m sorry! Keep at it!

[@travisfabel8040]

I assume this advice must be for an audience other than me... Hobbyist in the garage with electronics knowledge and no requirement of profitability, only wanting to make personal projects in the garage.

[@changamanga3419]

A new Machine, would come with financing options, (unless you have a ton of cash). To me that is the worst part of buying a New Machine. You will be living with at least 3-5 years of loan payments that will be eating up your profits. The older machine will cost you a fraction and in 2-3 months start earning.

[@bonkbonk92]

Heh.... And I just happened to buy a 1981 Matsuura MC-500v... Meh. I care more about its rigidity. Plus I'm not opposed to a retrofit project anyway. But of course my priorities are different from someone trying to hit the ground running. At least I verified mine was from a prototyping shop in a medical instrument manufacturer that dealt mostly in soft metals. Plus it had new bearings put in and has nearly a whole machines worth of spare parts.