DON’T BUY THIS if you're a hobbyist knife maker!

Austrian metallurgist and co-developer of the ApexUltra steel fellow knife-maker Tobias Hangler is back in part III of this 4-part episode where he talks about one of the most efficient tools for heat treating your knives - an electric heat kiln! Tobias talks about the advantages and disadvantages of using a heat kiln for knife making, costs, and many other factors to help you decide on whether buying a heat kiln is good for you or not. If you are a hobbyist knife maker, working part time or even a full-time knife maker and still using a gas forge, this video is for you.
If you are interested in understanding the best heat treatment systems or a comparison of different ways of what treating your knives, this will be a great series to watch so don't forget to SUBSCRIBE if you are new to this channel!
Heat treatment comparison video series: bit.ly/3I3iywb
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[@UKBladeshow]

Do you know which heat treatment system works best for your work load and current process? Check out other pros and cons of other systems HERE: kzbin.info/aero/PLFssspwgISv_I5BwGdJ4qn9wR088R462E

[@hulkthedane7542]

As a Master of Science (geology) who knows fase diagrams and understands material science, I just love your videos. They feed my inner nerd. 👍👍👍

[@UKBladeshow]

Hi again! Thanks for the lovely feedback ❤️🎉🥳

[@zgi5950]

I was really waiting for this one! Great content. Thanks for Tobias and UK Bladeshow!

[@UKBladeshow]

Hey buddy! You're very welcome! We hope you'll enjoy the series and if you are waiting for Tobias to be making a knife ( with a special steel in the core I must add!), then you should watch this space ;)

[@wassiliwohlgemuth4591]

I’m curious what will be the final conclusion of this series, because so far non of the methods have gotten too much praise it seems like. Will the recommendation be a fluidised sandbed perhaps?

[@UKBladeshow]

Hi Wassail good morning and thanks for the feedback. There is pros and cons of each system, including the last one, which is as you guessed a a fluidised sand bed.There isn't one system that will cater for all types of makers (i.e. a gas forge is best for smaller makers but won't have accuracy as others; a fluidised sand bed (spoiler alert) won't be great for smaller makers as it takes a long time to heat up and won't be cost effective). The objective of this series is a comparison for knife makers who want to see what other systems are there for them, and which one suits them best. I hope that helps!

[@tobiashangler]

I think elecric kilns are a good choice for many makers. I just tried to explain that there are also downsides to this system in general - as with everything else too. But then you can decide yourself what the things are you value the most and chose the right system for you. There won't be just praise for any of the systems 😂 i am certainly biased towards using fluidized sand beds - for the things i do it works really well.

[@hermannebner9649]

Servus . super Video tolle werkstatt.ich hätte da Mal eine Frage,ich Schmied auch Damast Messer aber ich habe immer wieder Probleme mit der Gasesse,mit welcher Gasesse arbeitest du und bist du zufrieden mit deiner esse.danke Gruß Hermann

[@Nospheratorum]

Very nice and comprehensive explanation about heat transfer and how the steel behaves at different temperatures. I have built my own kiln, 3.5kw with a 40x17x11cm chamber and it goes to 800C in about 20 minutes. Don't know if you're gonna read/answer this but I have a question that really bugs me: When doing an aluminium plate quench and the knife is already ground and not resting flat against the plates, does that affect the cooling rate of the part of the blade that is not touching the plates or does the fact that the section of the metal is much thinner it counteracts this issue?

[@GemAppleTom]

The basic answer is: the bits that aren’t in contact with the plates will cool down more slowly than the bits that are. Whether that’s a problem or not will depend on the grade of steel you’re using and whether you needed to quench in oil before the blade goes into the clamp. (I’m not totally sure i understood your question. If I haven’t let me know)

[@tobiashangler]

I agree with Tom, the missing contact and the insulating foil will result in slower cooling on preground sections. If the cooling rate is still fast enough will depend on the steel. If youre not using foil, using an oil quench followed by a plate cooling can give you a high cooling rate with minimal distortion.

[@krissteel4074]

You'd have to check the engineering report on the particular stainless, but if you can get it from the austenising temp down to below about 3-400C within about 2min it will be hard. So that's why I usually give it a blast of 4-5bar of pressurised air while it's in the plates to cool off the thinner areas as quickly as possible. For stuff like knives though which are thinner stock the cooling rate typically isn't really a problem, unlike something like die moulds or other big lumps of metal which gets a lot trickier. Even some stuff like A2 and AEBL you can probably not bother with the plates and either hang it up to cool in still air or if you're feeling adventurous you can hit it with the air hose but run the risk of cooling one side quicker and getting a bend.

[@Nospheratorum]

Thanks for the replies guys. I've had mixed results with different types of stainless steels, all wrapped in foil, always. The worst offender was X50CrMoV15 which was noticeably harder in the best point of contact with the plates when testing with hardness files. AEB-L, K110 and N690 behaved really well without any noticeable differences (K110 even going above 65HRC with smaller blanks). I did notice that clamping force does make a difference in hardness since it removes the air gaps that the foil might introduce.

[@GemAppleTom]

@@Nospheratorum As long as you’re not dawdling before getting the blades in the plates the quench speed doesn’t seem to be the issue. None of the steels you’ve mentioned need unusually fast quenching. You’re quite right about the clamping force - an air gap will slow down cooling. On the X50CrMoV15, mind me asking what your austenitising and temper temperatures are? It ^might^ be a retained austenite problem as opposed to a quench speed problem. (Also throwing that out to any other metallurgists - have I missed the bloody obvious?)

[@GemAppleTom]

Another good video in a good series 😊 I would have just called the kiln shown a furnace (or resistance furnace if i was being pedantic). Am i just mixing up terminology or is there a difference?

[@tobiashangler]

Thanks, good question as i am not native in english i am not 100% sure but I thinj its usually referred to as a kiln in our field.

[@GemAppleTom]

@@tobiashangler Cheers. Wie wuerden Sie es nennen? Einfach ein Ofen?

[@UKBladeshow]

Cheers Tom! Tobias has got a lot more in store for us all after this series so grab your popcorn mate 🍿 Chat again soon!

[@reshad80]

What kilns brands would you recommend?

[@UKBladeshow]

Hi Reshad. Good question. There are lots of great brands out there such as Paragon, Evenheat, and many others. You can even build your own one if you want. Check out this link from @Red Beard Ops: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bXfEnYyvi6aGr9k

[@rhinejuice]

Thanks again I am just setting up my workshop. Mostly stock removal and restoration so was going to try avoid a furnace and get my stuff heat treated by local specialist. BUT......If I were to decide to do it myself, I have made life difficult with some 3v and other similar powdered metals. I am thinking I have to go electric with pid to set ramps and dwells to achieve the specified heat treatment. Have you guys worked with higher alloy steels and had any success with gas? Are there non spec treatment that yield serviceable results? Have access to a 3kw 1200' furnace with Argon plumbing but its owner doesn't really want to pass it on yet..... its not cheap is there a less costly way to do it? Enrolled in cert 4 heat treatment modules and metallurgy and begin mid next year. But seems too far away atm. Running low on start up coin need to make the right decision.

[@tobiashangler]

High alloy steels need longer soaking times so heat treating out of a gas furnace is very tricky and i wouldn't recommend it. A kiln with either protective gas or using foil will be perfect for these to avoid excessive decarb.

[@rhinejuice]

@@tobiashangler Thanks, yes soak and in an ideal world cryo treatment too. Both of which I can't do myself, yet..... I was aware of the heat treatment requirements prior to buying the material but had access to a materials lab back then. I like doing things the hard way! I will have to get myself a kiln eventually. But wait, did someone say fluidized sand😜 Sounds dangerous and interesting!

[@GemAppleTom]

@@rhinejuice I’m a bit sceptical with cryogenics. There may be a very small improvement in a small number of steels some of the time and that’s as good as you’ll get. “Cold” treatment makes quite a bit of sense but you don’t need liquid nitrogen temperatures for 24hr. A simple home freezer for an hour or so will do the trick for low to medium knife steels and one that can get to -20C or -40C for high alloy steels. And fluidised beds are great (but very dusty) fun. I’m looking forward to the next instalment too.

[@fireplusbirdfilms6517]

Did I miss something, or did Tobias not actually address what a hobbyist makers shouldn't buy? Bit of a clickbate title? Good content, anyway. I feel I know more about electric ht kilns now. I'd love to see a video on the benifits and drawbacks of vertical vs horizontal kilns. It seems like horizontal kilns are much more common but vertical kilns might have some advantages for blademakers.

[@UKBladeshow]

Hi fireplusbird films. Sorry if it was unclear to you but what me and Tobias were saying is that a heat kilns are amazing but wouldn’t be the first and only choice for hobbyists, for the aforementioned reasons. Induction heaters or gas forges could be much more economical (but again, have their own drawbacks). Don’t forget to watch the rest of the series to get a good comparison of various HT systems (link in the description). I hope that helps!

[@fireplusbirdfilms6517]

Thanks. I did watch the video on gas forges and their drawbacks, which was a good primer for those without prior knowledge. Dr. Larrin Thomas of @knifesteelnerds has done some great work on the steps to get the cost consistent heat treat with a forge that compliment what you're teaching.

[@UKBladeshow]

Thanks for the comment again. I’m not sure if you were aware but Tobias works closely with Larrin Thomas as they are 2 of the 3 co-developers of ApexUltra. And yes, Dr Larrin’s video on heat treatment on a forge was a great explanation!

[@fireplusbirdfilms6517]

I didn't know the collaborated on ApexUltra. Very cool. I look forward to watching more of your very informative videos.

[@UKBladeshow]

You’re very welcome! While you wait for the upcoming series, have you seen the short series we did on a “Digital Camo” Damascus pattern? Makers Gonna Make - Sharman Knives Accordion Digital Camo Knife kzbin.info/aero/PLFssspwgISv--BoDbM0IsriiSLlgeK5AE

[@allin8289]

DIY instead??

[@UKBladeshow]

There’s lots of great DIY Heat Treatment Systems so yes - and it would be fun to make one to I bet!

[@benchapman5247]

DIY is not difficult, mine was under $500 AUD in total, around 2KW, easily goes to 1100c with PID and keeps stable within 2-3 degrees. Wind your own Kanthal A1 elements, put a safety switch on the door and run through an RCD protector and you are golden.

[@cavamanara]

Very annoying those bell and wind sounds for every tag/label. Good content, but hard to watch.

[@UKBladeshow]

Thanks for the feedback and sorry to hear it did not meet your expectations. I'll be mindful of SFX when making videos. Thanks!