‪@doublelift‬

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[@robertbauerle5592]

Even not being a designer double lift figured out a classic design phrase “When a player tells you something is wrong with your game they’re almost always right, but if they tell you how to fix said problem they’re almost always wrong.”

[@Heightren]

1:42 Remixers, you know what to do

[@mrhades113]

Never ask your adc to buy grievous wounds, my filosophy on this mechanic is: the person who aplies it most eficiently, has to be the one to buy it, and most of the time it's gonna be either a tank or enchanter.

[@eliaspadari2761]

I agree, AoE champs or enchanters are a fitting choice but not all support are good with this item on. I.e. Bard Braum Shaco .. Ignite is just better in general just be wise.

[@matt-z5j]

Tanks do not apply it well. Unless they have bamis and morellos. This combo works for some tanks who gets value from the ap. But for tanks like ornn, ap is a very bad stat as only his R has a 20% scaling with it and he only really wants to build hp, armor or mr to scale with his passive. I do build bramble on him, but it's a poor way to reduce healing for the reasons mentioned in the video.

[@kevinmoy3752]

They could make heals more like POE, like you get the heal over a duration instead of instantly. Then you could add items that make the duration shorter, so you have to invest item slots to get that OP instant heal. That way people can still have that drain tank build fantasy, but theyd have to give up a damage or defense item.

[@squeak5242]

Like soraka when she Qs someone

[@unicode3402]

Good idea tbh

[@squeak5242]

@@unicode3402 insane healing should be overtime I think honestly should just work with percentage maybe above a 300 heal half gets healed instantly and the rest is over time kinda like deathsdance for the heal not damage of the detahsdance

[@anhquantranle961]

this is the best idea I'ever seen. Please Riot see this.

[@YokaiAzai]

If anything Riot should just look into Smites idea of having heal reduction aura items and balance that out so wouldnt have to worry about needing to hit someone with something specific

[@carsonsimpson3732]

this is so true man, i needa start just spamming my core before i start considering items like these

[@christhis9597]

Chemtech putrifier is the best antiheal item cause your karma support can buy it, press e+ r and everyone applies grievous. But ye, change healing. Change grievous wounds

[@ReiDavizin]

With these 12.10 changes I predict that we will see a meta where healing champions (Soraka, Vladimir, Swain, etc) and healing items like Goredrinker, Death's Dance and Divine Sunderer are very priotarized, along with DPS mid laners and ADCs, seeing that only those types of champions will be able to deal damage to the tank champions that will explode into the meta

[@ReiDavizin]

@@RomnysGonzalez Nah, more like season 6-7, but more bruisers

[@rhorantyko7796]

I mean they specifically acknowledged which champions will benefit from the update so they're keeping these champs in mind. The real question is how do you buff durability without buffing sustained damage champions, fighters and tanks. I think a lot of people are just not realizing you can't really have it both ways. Imo this patch should be seen as the pendulum swinging in the other direction and not an attempt at the golden solution to all of league's woes.

[@TheMeatman1]

bro its really not that big of a change to be like " NO 1 IS STOPPING THE TANKS BUT THESE CERTAIN CHAMPS !!" its mostly designed with the idea that certain assassins dont actually have to make good plays to instantly kill people, even if they end up missing a lot of abilities...

[@ghozter1]

This nigga really said DPS mid laners and ADCs, maybe for mid when utility champs are meta but still most of the time they're the 2nd carry of the team. Wdym by DPS mid/adc, they're always DPS...

[@avananana]

To be honest, what they should do is make GV target-specific so it can only be applied to one target at a time, but make it last until they're either out of combat or haven't taken damage in a fixed amount of time. I'd rather they just straight up remove GV because it's a horrible mechanic that can't be balanced in a way that it's rewarding to use it or play against it, but knowing Riot they don't exactly just remove things from the game on-demand.

[@mozzy2968]

healing is mostly balanced, its lifesteal that is going crazy. Most champs with healing are balanced around the healing, like how Vlad has health costs to sorta offset the healing a bit. Then you have yasuo and yone with shieldbow who weren't designed to have that much sustain.

[@vita4177]

a lot of people don’t even buy grievous wounds anymore and just lose the game 🫥

[@Tk_Tank]

Bro pop off 5:20 (headphone warning)

[@iwersonsch5131]

So buff the empowered duration to 5 seconds? Ignite already lasts for that duration

[@iwersonsch5131]

Wait 10? 5 for regular, 5-10 stacking for empowered?

[@Ravencr3st0998]

I'm still surprised we haven't just given Grievous as an aura for tank/support items. Put Grievous Wounds as an aura on existing anti-heal items, where it does say a constant 10-20% reduction, and then the actual already existing grievous effects apply the full grievous.

[@noneofyourbusiness3288]

An aura that heals you for a percentage of damage healed when an enemy heals in the area. They get healing, but so do you.

[@matt-z5j]

The aura gw is a good idea. Bramble is such poor way to apply gw to enemies.

[@Magoooobly]

Beat me to it. This is too logical for riot to implement, however. Imo Heimerdinger should be gutted, that will likely fix the problem.

[@guillermoyac]

Something like this? (it's from another game i just only adapted it to LoL Description, that i wont mention it's name cause LoL players hate that game): Artic Freeze: Aplies Grievous Wounds to nearby enemy Champions by 50% (it wont stack with other passive with Grievous Wounds effect bought by the user), and reduces their Attack Speed by 30%.

[@Ravencr3st0998]

@@guillermoyac I mean, tbh I was more so thinking on Contagion/Pestilence from Smite. It's just got a flat healing debuff aura on it. I figured make that aura a slight bit weaker (10-20% instead of 25%) And then give the full 40% grievous if you apply it actively via the already existing methods

[@marcocassone5996]

I love that Doublelift gives some context and explains why it is that way and why it’s not necessarily Riot’s fault. That’s very wise and mature.

[@Gabriel-no6wv]

Oh good, its never fault of the company that maked the game...

[@hamsterfromabove8905]

@@Gabriel-no6wv Its an understanding that just because you can identify a problem doesn't mean its easy to find a solution that doesn't create new problems. 99.99% of all suggestions on the internet are worthless because they would come with unintended consequences that people just don't think about.

[@ShadingNight]

@@hamsterfromabove8905 And how do you think they got to that point? By the decisions they made rofl. Accountability is more mature than fence sitting. The players didn't make the desicion to make every champ and item give and deal tons of damage nor did they decide to implement healing in its current state.

[@Mr.Patchy]

Reduce burst healing, and make grievous easier to apply. Make bramble a small aoe aura of reduction where if they are within say 300 units of you, their healing is reduced. That way tanks reduce your healing by just standing beside you. No need to stun, no need to be hit. Or at least just make it abilities and attacks. Maybe the description is just bad and it really does work that way, but there are a lot of ways that you can improve the mechanic and make it feel better to buy. Riot has 200+ years of experience, which means there's Atleast 20 dudes that have been working on league for it's duration. Not one of them actually plays the game and watches replays? Not a single one of your balance personnel actually looks at the game instead of the stats? Make grievous wounds easier to apply, reduce burst healing, and then tune down grievous wounds if healing Champs like aatrox and Vlad are dogshit tier because of the changes. It's really not hard riot, you're just afraid of backlash and a dip in revenue for the short term that you take to figure your shit out. A playable grievous rework could be ready for 12.12 if you actually cared to fix what's wrong with the game.

[@andystockman761]

I remember when they removed spellvamp because there was too much healing.... and now you have shieldbow, eclipse, conqueror, sunderer, goredrinker, plus more, it's still too releventrelevant. Needs to be completely removed from items outside of maybe Bork, hydra, and bloodthirster. Leave the healing built into champ kits.

[@phouthasakinit]

I had this same thought. When playing against a Kayn, teammates always say "get grievous wound" (Thornmail) to stop his ult's heal. Grievous wound only last 3 seconds. While his ult's allows him to stay inside for 2.5 secs + the exit animation is 1.5 secs which is more than 3 secs. (2.5 + 1.5 = 4 secs). So therefore grievous wound is already done before he heals.

[@Juguitosdemora]

If he has a dot on him it he still get's grievous wounds during ult

[@Moptop2]

Red kayn heals from all his abilities (on champions), and probably buys goredrinker so he'll have omnivamp and the active as well

[@hbee3293]

Kayn’s ult has a 0.75s delay at recast and the exit animation seems no longer when he chooses to run the timer out Thatll give him a maximum of 3.25s, which, yes, will still be longer than the duration of GW. Had you actually spoken while you knew, you wouldnt have had to exaggerate to get your point across, sorry for that

[@erickrisdatuin8663]

Having thorn ail doesn't even help if he dont attack you.

[@muncher1753]

@@Moptop2 Omni vamp is 33% effective on AoE abilities. Useless stat. If Sett does a 2000 True damage with his W and 10% Omni Vamp. He heals for a grand total of 66 HP. Same with Kayn Q/W both are AoE.

[@matt-z5j]

The most effective way to apply Gw is with burn and bleed. If you get hit by lindry and they have Gw from magic dmg, it will proc for the duration of the burn which I think is 4s plus 3 s after. So 7s in total. The worst gw is the bramble. It can only be procced by autos. So if darius has not autoed you for 3 s he can q. Same with goredrinker or aatrox q. The condition for thornmail to apply 60 % is only useful if you are against a healer. On people with lifesteal it's almost useless. If you immobilise someone for 1-1,5 s they can't lifesteal anyways and after the immobilising effect there is only 1,5 s where the 60% still applies.

[@toniyakovlev4403]

Actually i was playing a red Kayn a couple of days ago and the enemy team had someone with a Thornmail. I completely gave up on using my autos during my time fighting the guy and used only abilities. The guy had zero chance of killing me. Such baffling design.

[@emilemil1]

I just don't see the point of it in the first place. If healing on champion kits is so problematic then build counters into those abilities, such as having healing over time (Mundo, Swain) be reduced by crowd control, leeching abilities (Vlad, Sylas) be based on damage dealt so it's reduced by armor/mr, and so on. I don't understand why healing is so special that it requires dedicated counter items when there are no such items against for example dashes. Yeah without GW you'll probably get rolled by a 20/1 Vlad but at that point the dude deserves the win.

[@LeonBelmont121]

ADC's, assassins, and burst mages buying heal cut is more of a hinderance, they should focus on their power spike / survival items over utility. Supports, Tanks, Bruisers, and such should buy heal cut. Bramble sucks, but Thornmail is great if you are someone that can proc it's 60% cut consistently. Chemtech Putrifier is severely underrated and gives ADC's a healcut without them having to buy Exec. And if you're facing a healer in lane, take Ignite and use it early in an all-in to nearly negate the effects of panic pots and summoner heal. But even right now League is in a state where everyone does a shit-ton of damage so healers HAVE to do a shit-ton of healing to counteract it, it's really silly and eventually the game will become a Korean MMO with hyperinflated numbers.

[@LeonBelmont121]

@@ronnical2489 we must live in two different worlds because I never see that item built

[@ronnical2489]

@@LeonBelmont121 In what elo do you play, maybe its because of that. I am currently D1 EUW.

[@AGuy-0751]

@@ronnical2489 this item is broken, the condition is also really easy to fulfill, karma mantra e's and the whole team has 60% gw. raka ults and the whole team has 60% gw

[@LeonBelmont121]

@@ronnical2489 I'm usually in the never-ending cycle of Low to High Plat NA

[@iaintregan]

grievous wounds should end up as a mechanic where it lasts until the champion being affected goes out of combat, but the 3s countdown only starts ticking when a heal is procced. This way, the heal reduction will affect both constant drain tanks like mundo and swain, as well as burst heals like vlad and aatrox

[@nicholasc.1024]

Tbf, champions like Vladimir/Swain/Mundo get out-healed by champions buying healing items. Their champion identity is healing but it is hardly relevant.

[@akaliotp6766]

Heal cut is already disgustingly broken, they should not stay until out if combat.

[@davidyang5187]

@@nicholasc.1024 I've healed from 20% to 100% with just my ulti with all 3 champs. No its very relevant not sure what you are talking about lol

[@Slashx92]

@@akaliotp6766 Heal cut is not broken. This video is about the irrelevance of it. The only scenario when GW is "broken" is when the champion healing has a dot with GW. Even in 1v1 scenarios you can get around bramble vest by not using autos, or excecutioner by not taking damage for 2 seconds and healing, or morello by doing the same

[@nicholasc.1024]

@@davidyang5187 I'm a masters Vladimir one trick, don't lie. You don't heal a relevant amount until 4+ items. By then, most games are already over.

[@AWanderingSwordsman]

I think build only based counterplay is bad. Even on the side of the healing character, it's not like you can outplay grievous really. Your champion just doesn't work nearly as well anymore. I'm of the opinion that it should be removed entirely and healing rebalanced around not having it.

[@Roflmao6173]

Wdym, just oneshot the aatrox with a yuumi on them 5head

[@MrSyltphademus]

I think having different healing amounts for in and out of combat with champions would be interesting, like it's only 50% effective in combat (random number chosen, it would obviously have to be balanced). It wouldn't limit champs like Soraka who want to sustain through lane, or champs that want to heal up off of waves/camps, but would reduce some of the 'you must kill this champion 4 times' moments in League. This would also mean that champs who DO heal a crazy amount would need to buy AP in order to get crazy heals, which would be more costly for supports like Soraka and Yuumi as opposed to just grabbing the cheap support items and being a free full heal. Could even have abilities like Aatrox and Mundo ult remove the restriction, so that they still maintain their 'all-in sustain' idea if it's too big of a nerf to those champs specifically. As for Grievous Wounds, the stack should just be permanent until the target leavels combat (a la Warmog's) so that once applied you don't have to worry about it with things like Zhonya's, just walking away for 3 seconds and not getting hit, etc. That way if the target wants to be healed, they have to actively make that decision and effectively CC themselves. For clarity, I think both the target and the support would have to be out of combat for the full heal, not one or the other.

[@Slashx92]

I actually liked when heals scaled with mostly AP. The only problem really was to balance the damage abilities of such supports. Now you just buy "heal items" and call it a day. But I don't like grievous wounds being for the full combat duration, as explosive as league can be, that could change too much the current state of the game (from burst to a tag-like teamfight). But it could be balanced as something like it last 7-9 seconds, with less constraints (all damage for mortal reminder, aura for bramble vest, etc) but if you leave combat, it last 3 seconds or the time remining if it's less

[@Sverakarlos]

maybe its because Im just a silver player but since I main Warwick jg, I actually feel the effects of grievous when against adcs. without grievous, I can go from 25% hp to 75% or more in just 1 ult. But when they do build it, even if its just executioners. I can't even heal back up to 50%. Its probably just because Im a low elo player that I don't see the actual effects like doublelift does.

[@ryanjohnston9364]

This is such a shit take lol. Doesn't even talk about the best grievous wounds item, the fact that it's dishonest to call it 3 seconds, or the fact that he doesn't even need to be building it because you can build it on enchanters and you're good for the game.

[@TchompTeam]

Well I think you kinda highlighted the point but said something else along with it. If you remove grievous wounds then you balance healing around, well that's the thing, you balance healing with the rest of the mechanics in the game. If healing has gotten to a point it requires its own item to feel as though, when it isn't having any actual value, a point of pressure in the game, then isn't that an issue of itself? And what about champions whose entire kit relies around the stat like enchanters, or other types. It complicates different matchups but grievous wounds is not so strong a stat that it has an influence on team composition. It is not a stat that has an influence on the position of your tank, your carry, ad or ap damage, engage. Like if it's supposed to have that kind of presence where the opposing team has to consider whether or not to build around it, it should be balanced in a way that matters, which is difficult since if it has value, it denies those champions their base values, but if it does not have value it loses any point in having been built. I think the easiest thing to me would be to remove grievous and to actually balance the healing tools that the champions possess. If anything I feel that items like goredrinker, stasis, *can't think of anything else cause I'm tired right now*. But these items provide such a strong way to extend the fight and are barely influenced by the grievous wounds stat. There has to be a method to confront these issues, and if Riot wants life steal to become a serious threat, which in some situations it feels that way, odds are your team is being burst at a point that it only makes sense to do more damage. That's kind of why I'm looking forward to the durability update since it's been overdue. With more drawn out fights you'll be able to see the influence of healing in an environment where hopefully those kinds of stats will have a positive impact that can be varied between builds with different positive or negative values.

[@amilo5]

simple ... remove grievous wounds and remove lethality. Reduce healing across the board and maybe nerf more champions then buffing them that reduces powercreep to the point where even the enemy soraka can't oneshot you with 2 items.

[@peter6687]

Easy. Put Grievous Wounds in the rune page. By doing this, every player can get it, and not be forced to buy an item. If a player do not get Grievous Wounds rune after seeing all the five enemy champs, then they deserve to lose. lmao.

[@yuurapik]

stupid take imo, doublelift always gives takes as if there are 5 adcs per team

[@raevynkosanke5847]

Literally had a game today where my whole team bought some form of grievous wounds against a fed af aatrox and it didn't seem to matter. He'd goredrinker for 10%->60% heal even with grievous applied and the go to full on the first kill he'd get with death dance reset mechanic. The only reason we won is because Vayne scaled to the point of 3 shotting him as long as he didn't one shot her first.

[@holycrapdude123]

More often than not, the key is cc and burst before healing. Anti healing items scale so poorly in this game it’s not worth it. Also for aatrox he has healing amplifiers, goredrinker, his e, and the 5% from the green tree. If you only have a base 40% antiheal on him, you pretty much only took out his amplifiers.

[@shutupMaji]

@@holycrapdude123 except Aatrox can run tenacity unflinching to counteract cc and deaths Dance to annihilate burst

[@Alex02CA]

@@holycrapdude123 And as has been said for many years. CC is not an acceptable counter play mechanic. If CC is the only counter play (which now runes can make you damn near immune) then that champion/mechanic is over powered and should be nerfed.

[@wisniamw]

GW are in game to counter life steal items, not to counter drain tanks change my mind

[@grimbite5625]

I mean if you were able to scale to that point, against a fed af aatrox, then i highly doubt it was as overwhelming as you make it seem. Healing as a game mechanic can feel unrewarding to play against, I get that, but what are they supposed to do? Just straight up remove all healing from the game and call it fair? Suddendly Aatrox is barely a champion anymore and his entire champion identity is messed up. While we're at it, might as well remove true damage from vayne, Zileans ult, Blitzcranks/Treshs hook and so on and so on.

[@curtisedwards9573]

Honestly just sounds like he annoyed that his role can't do everything. I feel like every role shouldn't have an answer for everything. Every champ shouldn't have a perfect item counter for every situation. If you see the other team with this kind of champ. Heals, shields, CC, dashes for days. Well pick a champ that does well into that. every champ and every comp shouldn't have a great way to deal with another comp. If you lose draft you just lose draft. The other team should have an easier game

[@danielboespflug527]

This is an incredibly hard mechanic to balance. You have to go through every champ to see what reaction it will have with them. I agree with you, because too many Mundos have crushed my low elo games even when I have grievous. I hope they get it right sooner rather than later

[@fusionxtras]

I think this was something LS talked about 2 seasons ago. The only reason you should buy GW is if you are facing 2 or more healing champs, if the item fits very well on you anyway, or youre a damage over time based champ vs 1 or more healers

[@chriss6439]

@@fusionxtras is graves a healing champ

[@fusionxtras]

@@chriss6439 i dont believe so

[@Swolsuke]

@@chriss6439 Both of his main builds have a decent amount of life steal.

[@theoverlord8207]

@@Swolsuke exactly though, there’s no inherent healing at all in graves kit but he can heal more than vlad with his shotgun auto… healing champs versus lifesteal champs is just garbage because GW would ruin vlads entire identity, but graves can just build a different item if they have GW…

[@SeisoYabai]

He brings up some good points about awkward problems with Grievous Wounds currently but tbh I think his overall take of GW being a bad mechanic is pretty pepega. Taking it out or just making it universal (or a RUNE??? wtf is this shit suggestion chatter?) just makes a game that can already feel fairly flowchart even simpler. Rn it does feel like a legitimate question of when, if, and who buys GW, and thats a really good thing. Malphite gets a lot of benefit out of the raw stats on Thornmail, and the Bramble is decent in lane. He should definitely buy it if the enemy team has a very auto-attack focused team, and becomes less efficient for every caster. The argument of "ah well its not good on him vs Aatrox" is a very weird take since you just... maybe don't buy it there and the ADC, support, or mid laner should get it instead. Things need shifting, sure, like Mortal Reminder not triggering on true/magic damage or Thornmail not triggering on slows. But tbh the absolute worst take here is "Grievous is bad because sometimes ADCs have to divert their build path" as if that isn't true of every other roles items. Building a Rabadons or Void Staff feels amazing from that massive power spike, but building Rylais or Demonic or Spirit Visage or Abyssal doesn't because they're situational items to cover a weak spot or exploit a weakness. That's a good thing, that's part of the strategy in League. It's the same reason I'm very glad the old BF Sword -> Zeal meta is long gone. It felt amazing, but it was boring, cookie-cutter shit you did the same way every single game.

[@fabysdf8877]

Imagine NOT having Grievous Wounds in TOP lane when ur behind against an irelia

[@GeekProdigyGuy]

doesn't affect DL's point. just because it's insanely good 1% of the time doesn't mean the mechanic is good for game balance. since DL wants healing to be balanced w/o grievous wounds, irelia could simply receive a nerf to her healing if necessary.

[@Glazierstar]

The issue I always run into is that most the time a top lane champs grievous would be a bramble vest and irelia has to hit you to proc it. Half the time it doesn’t matter that you have it cuz you can trade with the irelia, and even if she doesn’t heal during the fight, she just has to chill a few seconds then q the next wave and she’s full health anyway. For it to have value you have to fully all in her in one fight cuz if you let her out of combat for a short time she can just heal off the wave without interacting with you.

[@fabysdf8877]

@@GeekProdigyGuy I totally agree with DL's point, the thing is that GW is the only form of counterplay to the amount of healing that exist in the game, even more so with champions that have healing in their kits. Good thing that part of this healing is getting nerfed in the upcoming changes, now i can finally enjoy playing shyvana top 😌

[@Ryuno_Ace]

I agree with your point at 3:57 . Another moba that balances healing extremely well is smite, even though Im sure people here don't play it. Healing in smite is mostly tick based with a few exceptions. Heal-cut in smite lasts 6 seconds and can be reapplied with abilities hit. Alot of Gods have heal-cut (which can differ) in their kits and some even have true heal-cut (where you heal for zero) if you are affected by it. Another way to balance heal-cut (or greivious wounds) is just by making it more accessible and adding it into core items as a passive. Or adding it into specific items like a crit item heal-cut. There are alot of ways to make anti-heal (or greivious wounds) viable and/or more accessible in league.

[@lozzo11omg111]

DL is right that grevious feels bad on ADC, it's because it's not designed for them. ADC should deal way more damage than grevious prevents in healing, mortal reminder is kind of a trap item because it Looks like you're still getting the stats you want, but it just wont deliver on value like DL said, its only 3sec. Also ADC will die in less than 3sec if someone like vlad gets ontop of you, so you're not getting into the long battles that grevious actually helps with. Now i'm just an iron pleb, but to me grevious is for low damage champs that want to have a chance vs sustain. if you play a tank into mundo, you will never be able to threaten him, because he knows that in 15sec he will still be full hp and you will be out of pots/mana and forced to recall. ADC and bust don't need this as they should out damage the sustain. I think that the durability update will see more value for grevious vs those champs. we will have to see how it plays out.

[@Scarlet_moon.]

Only tanks should get GW,everyone else is better of just getting damage or dot items like Liandry.

[@DillonChichester]

Kayn ult, for example, can wait up to 3 seconds, meaning he can wait out the grievous to fly heal from red kayn ult. Not to mention he can just not auto to not get grievous'ed by thornmail.

[@shakingsalt5516]

Could they make it so grievous stacks as its reaplied instead of instant 10 seconds of grievous or have the greivous increase linearly as they are attacked up to more than what current grevious is.

[@nathankong8732]

Always felt that buying executioner just delay the ie power spike too much

[@ZoeyEldritch]

YOu know the thing is..... we are in this stupid state where low lvl play doesn't realize you could CC the Yi while someone with shred of some form rather be Craken for true damage or something else rips them apart. Low level play isn't good at team work or thinking that out mechanically all that well. So instead you get smurfs pulling out some godly amounts of healing and damage Yi, Irelia or some other champ so they can get a ego boost from hard stomping due to how strong Heal+Sowballed is. Point is, healing over all just isn't fun in terms of what it has caused at this level. There is to much of it, Grievous just sucks and well here we are with the upcoming durability update set to nerf healing by a tiny amount. Maybe one day this won't be a game where I refuse to try and get new people into but I rather not put friends through the hell that is trying to learn this damn game.

[@BigJambo]

There's also heal cut items that just don't work on certain champs. Any tank or frontline without cc can't get Thornmail. A good example is Mundo. He will never proc the 60% heal cut despite needing to get that as a heal cut item as a tank. There is also not a magic resist heal cut item so if you face a sylas, vlad, mordekaiser you're screwed.

[@d.ml.g9902]

The amount of times I get ping or shit on for not buying Thornmail as Mundo, pisses me off more than it should.

[@Sammysapphira]

What does having cc have to do with thornmail? People will hit you with attacks.

[@d.ml.g9902]

@@Sammysapphira read the description of the item and come back.

[@Kagawwy]

@@Sammysapphira Thornmail only grants 40% heal cut against autos, to inflict the full 60%, you need to Immobilize the target. Mundo can only "immobilize" an enemy by killing them with E; there's no way for him to inflict the 60% heal cut.

[@matt-z5j]

Even if you apply 60% by immobilizing them they wouldn't heal in the time they are immobile anyways. And leaves time window of maybe 1 sec where it can actually reduce by 60%

[@ClockworkGearhead]

Give it a Sheen-like CD (20 sec or something) with an obvious indicator for blocked healing. 100% reduction for three 3-5 seconds when it's applied. 25% for another 3-5 after. Or make it a targeting item with a semi-permanent state (until death or something). There's a lot of ideas, frankly. Mortal Reminder could have had "stacks" where it builds 5% reduction every auto and loses 5% every second (and synergizing with attack speed builds). Thornmail could have been a reverse "Knight's Vow" where a tank identified someone to screw over in particular. They could have even given it a quality like Sion's passive, "If I die, you don't get to heal for 10 seconds, so I'm taking you with me," kind of thing. Lots of ways. Bramble could have even had a "reverse healing" idea to it, where if someone is _healed_ they actually lose life instead with a DoT, or stack a bleed (making it something you stack on Darius just to make _him_ more busted). Morello could have had a "saved up heal" charge, that transfers into damage, if you receive healing from an external source (making full heal comps more cancer). Morello could have been exceptionally unique, if the item had to be "linked" to an ability, which is the only one that would proc the anti-heal, but the percent reduction could be based on that abilities AP (100 base damage per 5% or something) ratios and time (second for second) making each type of anti-heal more unique per game, and forcing people to pay attention.

[@JetSetz]

As an ADC, it's just a no brainer that this class isn't supposed to build any grievous item, it's not their duty nor can they likely hit multiple target effectively for that duration. But there are some exceptions... For example, a nautilus that buys bramble vest (800g) first item has so much value, the grievous wounds + reflective damage + armor, makes it a strong early stomper. -reduce 40% healing, -autohits return some dmg back to aggressor, -armor reduces dmg taken (making your health and shields be more effective). The upgraded version of Bramble; Thornmail, can be proc'd easily. Just naut autohit cc passive does the trick and applies the upgraded grievous wounds. For AP and non-crit AD, they gain the upgraded effect when the target is below a certain % HP, I think it was 50%. As long as the target remain above that, they basically only get the 800g version of grievous wounds, not the full price upgrade. And in most cases, GETTING those targets below that point is the tough part, like a Vladimir, Fiora, AAtrox, Rhast/Red Kayn, Mundo etc. For that situation, grievous wounds inflicted by a crit-build player (or thornmail on champ that can immobilize targets); will apply the UPGRADED version. Which is much more powerful, because there is no threshold condition depending on the ENEMY's situation, the situation is dependent on YOU instead (just do 3 autos to proc mortal reminder, or immobilize target with thornmail). And "some" ADC or crit-build champs can rapidly proc 3 autos through auto-resets, hail of blades, and such. Example: Twitch, building Mortal Reminder + Runaan's Hurricane... (with hail of blades or lethal tempo) He is capable of popping ult and rapidly inflicting 3+ autos over potentially all 5 enemies. He probably hasn't dropped tankier targets to anywhere near 50% HP, but the grievous wounds effect is the full -60% healing. There are 2 TYPES of grievous wounds items... Mortal Reminder + Thornmail. (The condition is dependent on YOU to apply the upgraded effect). Chempunk Chainsword + Morellonomicon. (The condition is dependent on the ENEMY, to fall below 50% hp, to apply upgraded effect). Chempunk Chainsword and Morello may now seem like a bad pick out of those 2 types because the condition isn't yours, but depends on the champion. Chainsword and morello, on champions with high burst that can drop targets to below 50%, is where you get value out of it, you can seal their doom (Rengar, zed, riven, fizz, kata, zoe, akali, etc). But morello on something like veigar, is probably not ideal because you likely just press R if the target is a squishy at 50% hp anyway (and veigar likely wont inflict it on multiple targets easily), it's better sense to just bulk up more AP or get magic pen and never buy grievous wounds. Hope this point made sense, and an interesting thing to discuss further. I'd like to learn more.

[@shiaralecy1097]

It'd be interesting to see more healing effects function similar to death dance's damage gating. where it takes the sum healing and spreads it over a duration and the amount you can heal per second is capped to a percentage of the champs max hp, then grevious wounds could be used to cancel that healing stack when its applied, making it more about focusing the low health target and less about pre-emptively applying a debuff

[@cosmicbrownie2312]

And people wonder why I refuse to buy gw unless it is thornmail. The value I get from Morello is nothing when Vlad can just dissolve into his puddle then the second he re-emerges (after the gw wore off btw) he can instantly regain all his health and burst me down. The money I wasted on Morello as Veigar I could be building void staff or rabadons and delete Vlad BEFORE HE EVEN CAN HEAL TO BEGIN WITH.

[@astraluniverse5928]

You're speaking from ADC perspective but if you play top lane vs some aatrox or something like that, and you're not rushing GW you're TROWLING. GW is just not THAT good on marksmen most of the time. I can say as jungle main that I have to go gw vs some champions even for short 1v1s. And like... even if I go with your philosophy I still think it has huge value against bruisers with Botrk or goredrinker diving you. No matter what champion or role I play, if the enemy team has a lot of healing, I'm gonna see like 3k to 10k healing reduced by the end of the game. That's a lot of value for bucks. I also play a lot of Udyr, Xin, Jax, tank/ad shyvanna and other champions who got healing in the build/kit and if the enemy doesnt buy gw before I pop off then it's basically a free game. that's my two cents.

[@dtmuffinman]

Healing is in the atrocious state it's in because it's so ubiquitous. They never needed massively accessible grievous wounds, because healing was a specialized thing for a select few champs. Don't want to get destroyed by healing? Kill the Soraka first. CC and focus the Vladimir. Now you play against a comp of Aatrox, Fiddlesticks, Shieldbow Yone, Shieldbow BT ADC, and a Yuumi. There is no one person to focus to stop healing from being a problem. Healing desperately needs to be a VERY rare part of champion kits, but unfortunately they'd have to rework half the cast at this point to solve that.

[@GravitoRaize]

I think Morellos and Thornmail and their capability to apply GW is fine, but GW on Executioner's and one of its upgrades is the problem. If Mortal Reminder could give not just GW but also GW plus something like increased damage to champions that were recently healed or stacks of increased damage every hit vs. recently healed champs, it might be able to be brought into some form of balance. The length of the GW debuff on it should also possibly be increased as well since most ADCs do single target damage. But if they did this, they'd really need to watch out for champs like Aatrox and others that really do need healing in order to be competitive. Part of problem with GW is that 90% of the players don't know when they really need it. If you are a Brand that isn't getting Morello's vs a Sona/Aatrox/Kayn/Mundo/Aphelios team, you are just not playing wisely. I'm also torn on this a bit because Chemtech Purifier is honestly kind of OP on AoE healers like Seraphine, so I'd be less inclined to say that GW by itself needs a timing buff, it just needs something a bit more powerful for ADCs, IMHO, and I could see a bit of an argument for a buff on Thornmail, too. But Morello's and Chemtech are fine as-is.

[@mylesmiller5979]

nothing is wrong with grievous wounds its the fact that we do tons of damage and on top of that our healing the vast majority of the game is based on DMG only compounding the issue. TBH this is a misleading video because while I agree this guy is good I don't think he is correct in this regard. all the examples he using are honestly bad examples. ADC buying grevious is silly IMO i feel like the physical grievous wounds items so suck tho, simply having an item like demonic that inflicts say bleed would make grievous a lot better but like I said that's not the problem when you end up with tons of stats and healing for % values of the dmg u do. At the end of the day making healing flat values would make it so you only NEED to build anti heal when up against champions that require it, and if that's a problem then whats up with QSS, zhonyas, Maw etc etc. Also if we are on the topic about balance why the fuck hasn't flash been nerfed, literally 99.7% of ALL players in EVERY ROLE use this summ spell, clearly that is not balanced and if you think this doesn't contribute to the balancing problem league has ur just wrong, aside from the gameplay aspect it teaches riot the wrong way to balance a game. name one thing that 99.7% of all players build aside from boots. This doesn't apply to boots because we don't really have any other options like boots, but we do have other summoner spells.

[@jetpackusa2885]

Just make it a timed ability, lasts for 10 seconds has a cool down of ~5 for procing it

[@ShadingNight]

Just remove self healing that isn't kit related from the game. The "anti-heal" is dog shit and always will be. Healing via ADC's should not be possible,. Want a team game? Stop encouraging the use of singleplayer strategies, items, and stats. 50% healing reduction and I still see numbers fly at 230+ but here they are, saying they love the way anti-heal is right now.

[@NutLump]

riot is really shit at balancing out mechanics or playstyles. Juggernauts and Tanks during S5 and 6 Mage supports and Ardent in S7 Trying to force wriggles lantern or blood razor while simultaneously nerfing the shit out of it until its removed. Trying to make their own "classes" then failing and only putting forth the Taric Rework as a dollar store version of a paladin and mage bot laners. "Supports can carry too" then stopping after Pyke and Senna then nerfing them into the dirt Yuumi Ranged ADCs and Melee ADCs being juggled into both of the roles being ass because "Its called bot laner now" Almost all mages easily going over 1000 AP because LUL Assassins being neutered after S4 and never seen again for years because they still fail to balance the interaction between ranged AD and assassins interacting Healing Shielding Crit Tenacity it never ends.

[@MaelCott1]

That's LITERALLY the worst point you could make to remove grievious wounds, if a player manages to go out of combat until the effect dissapears, them comes back and he heals to full, they deserved it. Grievous wounds has so many other problems that you could have pointed out, but nooo, "if I don't apply the the debuff they don't get debuffed, that's unfair", you don't need to "time when" you apply grievous wounds when you're playing a adc, hit them, it isn't like your autos have a long cooldown that you need to save. The actual problem of the mere existence of grievous is that healing can't be balanced around what it does, instead it is balanced around being reduced to 40% of it's effect by a summoner spell, if you apply grievous wounds the healing is underpowered and does almost nothing, if you don't have a healing debuff the healing is overpowered and the champion becomes immortal. Burst champions shouldn't buy healing debuffs, if you're a burst champion and you can't kill someone if your combo, the enemy didn't kill you right after because your healing debuff went away, it kills you cause you didn't manage to burst the enemy with a BURST champion. But if you manage to burst the fed healer, it doesn't matter if you have a healing debuff, cause they died before they could even think about healing.

[@RavenAurion]

Drain tanks would be a lot easier to balance if they didn't have to balance them around grievous existing. Systemic healing needs to be nerfed heavily. In kit self healing needs to be balanced around not having to worry about GW. GW should remain but should apply to external/targeted healing more with a reduced effect on self healing (since the healing of self healing bruisers and such should be lower baseline) so heavier effect in stuff like soraka and yuumi, lower effectiveness in stuff like Darius and Swain (again with NERFS to their base sustain. GW is supposed to be situational, not mandatory every game.

[@bunniyubel3782]

Just create an item that throws the equivalent of an Ana grenade from overwatch as an active, champs standing in the zone can literally not be healed, if raka tries to W her teammates, they'll get a +0. Boom, solved the issue. Then make a version of it for every class and type of champion cuz let's be real here, the real reason why grievous wounds sucks is because there aren't enough items that can accommodate all sort of champions, and it won't fit into their build. So all we need to do is make more items for the niche picks. A tanks/engage champs like Malphite or Vi can have an item that expunges gas in an area around them that disables all healing. Mages can have a singed puddle that disables all healing. ADC's can throw a grenade that disables all healing. Something crazy, i don't know. Just ideas off the top of my head. "oh no, that'll mean the purpose of healing enchanters is null and void", yeah well just walk out of the "grenade" zones before healing then, it's not like there's 0 counterplay to it, I didn't even mention that it cc'd you with a slow or something. That way you can have skill expression by chaining your own champions CC with the no-heal zone to guarantee a kill, cuz who else wants to dive a goredrinker abuser and have them heal to full hp with current GW mechanics in the game? :D

[@tacci2568]

If they want to make antiheal a real thing it sould be a real antiheal, so if you dmg someone you cant be healed for 3 seconds at all, all incoming healing will be reduced to 0 excluding pots. after 3 seconds you get grievious wounds for 3 seconds decreasing healing by 50 %. Then you should make the items more expensive and keep oblivion orb, bramble vest and executioners with grievious wounds. this would force the enemy adc playing with a healer support to get qss or play with cleanse. to make sure you get your healing trough. i think it always was badly balanced by forcing enemey to buy grievious wounds when you have a healer in team. But you get no minus, with creating this mechanic you can actually say its balanced by cleansing the antiheal first. Also Champions like Sett, yuumi, soraka, wouldnt be played that much or get buffed in another way. Or other healing champs, like vlad, samira , mundo

[@dangdiggity9916]

Only grievous item i like is thornmail, but even that is bad. Make it 5 sec and have the item be bramble + negatron + kindlegem so its 40 armor 40 mr 300 hp 10 cdr etc. And ofc getting hit my spells applies it. Vlad being able to dosge your skillshot 20 sec cc on his 10 second ability. Tyen he ofc heals 4720 hp from a non empowered q.

[@pflaumi123]

It also feels bad if multiple people potentially profit from it outside of teamfights, but in teamfights you only need it once. Why the heck doesnt it stack? That Bramble Vest only activating when being hit is also so bad. That Aatrox experience you described, I had against Nasus where he simply ignored me and got his full healing off of minions every time. Bramble should activate on both being attacked and attacking. A MR version is welcome too. The longer time could also rly help.

[@takumifujiwara300]

Have you seen the Grievous wounds for Enchanters?

[@LLChicoro]

Ok a real solution would be to delete this mechanic from items, and make it appear in a BUNCH of spells from champions , the only one I can recall right now is kled Q, it should be in a lot more of champions kits, so you can actually "counter pick" when you see vlad locked in, instead of just saying to yourself "shit here we go again for that morello with whatever champ i wanna play". I don't know if it would be better to have like every single champ have some , or just half the champs have reliable grievous wounds applying spells, with short cooldowns, but I truly think this could be the plan.

[@iXSIKOBOIXi]

It's situational. ADCs aren't great for it, but plenty of other champs such as Tanks and Supports should always be buying anti-heal unless they literally have no way to heal themselves. Thornmail or Chemtech Chainsword or whatever that item supports build is is great for anti-healing

[@LunicornSZRK]

this is just copping... ofc if you're not hitting them they can heal normally... but most of the time you nullify 15k of healing in a game. He talk about Zeri not getting anti heal from R, you fking hit everyone aoe dmg anyway. he said Kai sa deal magic dmg on W, wrong you have muramana you do apply anti heal. He just don't want to build anti heal and he do whatever he want. most of ppl don't want to build according to the game and prefere to just stick to the same build everygame, i can understand them. But grievious wound work and telling so many ppl that it's not worth it is just making low elo even worst because they'll think he's right

[@dzigayu4944]

The fact that there isn't an MR Grievous Wounds item and Thornmail being the only GW option for champions like Malphite and Mundo is just such blatantly terrible design that Riot hasn't addressed since Pre S11.

[@Norinot1]

FINALLY! I can finally reference Doublelift to my friends whom I've been telling that this item and all of the items which gives Griveous Wounds are actually dogshit and a waste of gold.

[@rickniu4153]

enemy team: Aatrox top Nunu jg Vlad mid Aphelios adc Raka support DL: fuck grievous

[@Sammysapphira]

It's dumb that heroes are balanced around grevious existing. Sylas is literally unkillable without grevious on him but when you grevious him he is fair in the duel. The problem? You spent 3k god damn gold on an inefficient item just to make another character on the level that it should be by default. It's not like armor pen where you still get some benefit against squishies when you buy a last whisper. It just straight up blows having to buy grevious on any character.

[@bonzwah1]

Imo, ADC should not be buying grevious wounds. But grevious wounds is very good situationally when you are able to play with it in mind. An adc cannot do that. A tank, support, or bruiser can do that. They get to choose their engage timings and they get to stick on priority targets. ADC needs to play too reactively to apply grievous wounds deliberately, which is why doublelift talks about how much value gets incidentally from it rather than talking about deliberately playing around it.

[@yoannikiforov7961]

Just remove GW and reduce all healing by 40-45% on top of the durability patch nerfs to healing. GW feels awful for both the person that's supposed to be healing and for the person that has GW.

[@T1LADD]

How to fix grevious wounds Make grievous wounds a mythic item for supports. Both tanky and enchanter mythics. No set conditions Just an aurer. 550 range or so. Take all other items out the game.

[@OutlawKing13MistaJ]

Grievous wounds is a niche mechanic like lifeline. Same with QSS.... you don't buy it if you aren't going to use it. There's plenty of cases like a yasuo getting his blood thirster nerfed. If you are the adc target the champs that heal

[@TheAngelRaven]

The issue with GW is that, unless NO ONE buys any healing items or neither team has healing whatsoever, it will always be needed at some point. Healing is just fucked. Look at Yone.

[@Slashx92]

I never realized (main aram, bear with me) mortal reminder only procced grievous wounds on physical damage and not just damage. That's actually wack

[@zianitori1565]

this is more relevant for lower elo but grievous is dogshit against fed bruisers that self heal because you're forced to got EVEN FURTHER behind in gold to make up for it and it will never do enough to be worth it because of the huge xp and gold differences that happen in lower elo games but your team still cries at you to buy it anyway even though with most champs if you're close enough to apply it you're close enough to get one shot by them. it feels like the only grievous item thats ever worth building is a quick bramble vest inside of laning phase against a top lane champ with self heal

[@BacchusGames]

Yeah I hate grievous wounds on both sides. I hate buying it because it's a loss in gold that could be going to a fun item that instead requires the chore of getting 800 gold, and I hate playing against it because I play a lot of champs with notable healing and it feels like it's in everyone's build path. I think the game would legit be better if healing was just nerfed and GW was removed.

[@Baka_Mop]

This wouldn't be a problem if champs that heal a shit ton didn't also have the ability to just run you down and do more damage than actual AD/AP carries while also being beefy as hell. Looking at aatrox and vlad in particular.

[@oldmanhopes3627]

NEW PATCH! all healing effects now occur over a 3 second BANDAGE effect

[@mightymouseftw4363]

Crazy 7 months ago he says its a shit item, now they nerf it by 20% wounds and less attack speed so it feels even more useless, but have no fear we gave it 10 more ad while costing a 100 more gold LUL

[@mr.rat.cheesuschrist3441]

makes a lot of sense I used to play supports like shake or Morgana and the enemy team just picks soraka and Sona my thought process was if I get wounds first item I could help my team better later on in team fights, well the items said reduced 10K+ or a few thousand its not they still heal at least 75% of hp its stupid since then I stopped building any wound items cus its useless rather build something that one shots people so they don't get the chance of getting healed when they are 1% hp just execute them 100%

[@crazykillerpanda101]

It’s hilarious because not only does it feel bad to waste 800 gold, it ALSO feels bad for the other guy who is now having a their healing cut. Why have a mechanic that feels bad for all sides?

[@orianna1220]

I play a ton of ori and ekko and got fed up with healing. So for a while I was buying oblivion orb second and then waiting till 3rd or 4th item to complete it. When I was buying it I felt always super weak. It was noticable so I go for core 3 and then decide. But that remains healing is still fucked.

[@MusicHound18]

I mean an adc shouldn’t really ever get healing reduction I agree. But I’m top lane when ur vs someone with healing in ur kit and at the end of the game u see u reduced 6.5k healing I think that’s wurf lol. But that’s cause for 10 min ur 1v1 vs just that person

[@stephanshishkov9373]

How tf does Doublelift not know that thornmail procks off of cc? what????? Bruh this guy complains abt pros not knowing how to play new champs but he doesnt know what basic items do smh.

[@ReveredWizardBob]

I mean if they made grievous wounds 60% and last 10 sec Aatrox's winrate would take a nose dive, champs would be useless.

[@MegaSalami]

I get it, me and my friends always complain that Grievous wounds doesn't do shit in the game. Every character you build it against just doesn't give a shit our just straight up outheals it.

[@LeetTron5000]

only consistent aoe mage mids or supports get value out of the grevious items. I never ever ever bought them on adc for this reason and i quit like 5 years ago. So many better items that will help me kill the healing targets just as fast and the other targets faster or give me some survivability. But i karma or brand support can get some use out of it. The duration could for sure use a buff to five second on the mages and i saw saomeone say there should be a tank support item with it as an aura which would also be perfect. I would buy a thornmail for grevious on an adc before i bought MR.

[@aziouss2863]

Grevious woulds should mark you and the mark reduces your next heal by 70% and then last for 5 seconds after that. The mark is removed if you are out of combat or better yet back in base cus fuck healing.

[@eamono]

And it doesn’t stack, so multiple people buying it is awkward. And it messes up laning phase too because it’s balanced around teamfights.

[@IYPITWL]

Play against ulted Aatrox with Maw active... Grievous doesn't even feel like it exists.

[@zhongjie]

His reasoning is completely off though, you're delaying the time when someone would attempt to heal by 3 seconds or forcing them to take a smaller heal. That's already value there

[@IcarusOOT]

As a Sylas main, I hate that mechanic, not for the same reason, although I do agree it's a bad mechanic, it just fucks over Sylas's most important basic ability

[@samuricexful]

Self healing off of other champions should just be nerfed. There's absolutely no reason any champ should be able to gain 50% of their health back in an instant.

[@turbanheadless]

grievous wounds i like on melee champs when i know i will have extended fights against other melee champs or tanky champs that cannot run away. otherwise its just like DL says, useless

[@hollowvoid7324]

how about, an aura instead? much better for tanks so you don't have to worry about conditions, and they can make grievous wounds an item not recommended for any carry only for tanks or fighters, or those who engage, increase the duration of it by 5-10s

[@Snackie15910]

Grievous wound items, feel shit to buy, feel shit to play against, just remove it entirely, except for maybe ignite, and nerf all heals

[@Nithaelilluvatar]

Like anti heal now is litteraly useless need a full raework not a nerf, i see a yasuo with 60% greviuos on it heal him self of 700 hp 1v5 and killget a quadra and still survive after all attack him just for heal

[@theexplosivefox3884]

I play Teemo jg, and when it come to this mechanic its so fucking bad on me most of the time even though I have a dot and the reason why is that most of the champs I play into who have lifesteal, I have Q (blind) to counter. So in the end, it doesn't even help them.

[@Ravnesss]

1:10 ok what about the 4 other players while that guy is stopwatched that he is currently hitting?????? Trash example.

[@johnsmith-de2py]

I think the approach riot took to healing isn’t really the best. In my opinion it should be a more situational thing that only certain characters like vlad or aatrox have instead of literally everybody having it. When literally every character can have extreme life steal and healing it makes a anti healing status affect like grievous wounds mandatory and it makes the characters who are meant to revolve around life steal feel less special.

[@BassnBoman]

I'm an illaoi main and love when my enemy top laner buys bramble. Ok, I just won't auto attack you and you just wasted gold.