Dr. Billy Wu: How Charging Routines affect Degradation | Battery Podcast

[@bellshooter]

Great discussion here, as always the devil is in the detail. But intelligent design of cooled cables can help reduce cable size and heft, Tesla has a patent on cooling individual cores that makes their cables lighter. I disagree a little with Dr Wu about his reply to the question on charging degraded batteries, the vehicle BMS/Thermal Management will know the status and tell the charger what to do. Smart charging is more often done with lower power home charging where a charge to time/state can be specified, better not to conflate the two purposes.

[@EfficientRVer]

Great guest. He didn't stumble, need to BS, or get anything wrong technically..... but more importantly, always saw the bigger picture and perspective, and was able to come up with a way to convey it to laymen. So, a great engineering mind, plus a great ability to understand how to explain things to people who are not.

[@aussietaipan8700]

Use a glass to catch water, the faster the flow and the more volume of flow will make the glass spill over. You can fill it fast but then slow down the rate as the water reaches the top. Batteries work exactly the same way. My 9 year old model S battery is still in excellent condition as it has never been super charged. The max charge rate it has ever used was a public 48kW, otherwise it has only been home charged at 7kW or 3kW and only to 70% for daily use, 50% if parked for longer periods and 90% for longer road trips over 300km.

[@jimgraham6722]

Exactly, my experience also. For the majority of use cases, possibly vast majority, fast charging is largely irrelevant

[@Arashiii87]

How about nmc batteries vs lfp batteries, does the glass water analogy still applies the same way?

[@jimgraham6722]

@@Arashiii87 The analogy applies to all chemical batteries with fixed amounts of reactive material internal to the cell. It doesn't apply for example to flow batteries.

[@cedriclynch]

I think there is a strong relation between the life of a lithium battery and the temperature at which it is operated. If you use the battery in such a way that it often gets hot, you will greatly shorten its life. See also the official investigation report into the battery fires that occurred in two nearly new Boeing 787 aircraft. Using a very sensitive calorimeter the investigators found that the lithium battery would begin to produce a tiny but detectable of heat starting at about 55deg.C and increasing with further increase in temperature. This heat is probably coming from a chemical reaction that is consuming the active materials in the battery (and that at higher temperatures is what leads to thermal runaway).

[@Arashiii87]

@@cedriclynch The overheating of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner's lithium-ion batteries in 2013 was traced back to an internal short circuit within one of the battery cells.

[@Turbo6019]

This is interesting for sure, there are many that hate EV and there are those that love EV and I find that those that hate EV does not understand how a battery works. Understanding is the key in which the tech is getting better by the day so don’t give up and keep an open mind.

[@ElMistroFeroz]

People who “hate EVs” don’t have opinions of their own, just those implanted by the mainstream media. I stopped rationalizing them a long time ago.

[@batterygeneration]

Thank you so much, Dr. Billy Wu! It was a pleasure talking to you!

[@dr.philippveit5318]

Great that you got such a famous battery researcher for your podcast.

[@ericverlaet4447]

Yes I agree with you, the battery of my car, 9 years old, 420.0000 km and 1900 cycles, have a capacity degradation of 12 %, 20 % increase of internal resistance. But with my New victory smart solar charging at home the charging power varying from 1200 to 3500w So I gain 1 % capacity and lower impedance. 120 KW at 5 % soc 7 years ago, now 83 KW at same soc....the BMS do his job..... 45% SUC 55 % slow at home. Thanks tesla. Have a nice day🌞

[@jounisaari9471]

I have over 10 years old laptop with over 95% SOH battery. I have limited charging to 60%, and starting of charging to 50% unless I need hours of working time. When battery was new, it was bit under 30Wh, and now it's over 27 Wh. I perform couple of times a year a balancing and capacity measurement cycle. Most of time the battery is idling between 50 and 60%. That 10% is enough to move with power on in energy saving mode or work for a while without plugging in. It sometimes goes to under 40%, but charges then only to 60%. The battery experiences full cycle or nearly empty only couple of times a year. Otherwise it's between 40 and 60% soc.

[@andywurst4873]

Around 24:30 Dr Wu suggested a choice between accuracy and simplicity. I think that is a false choice. Logs over the life of the battery charging and discharging environment can certainly be maintained. Effort of creating such a system and at what cost is likely the real problem. OEMs don't care once they sell a product. Also, they may be creating a system that could be used against them when it comes to warranty issues. a graph of SoC would be useful to the 2nd hand market. I personally would avoid an EV with high annual mileages. The chances of poor charging habits might increase. Wouldn't a graph showing 20-80% charging and little degradation be more valuable that someone that drives little but charges to 100% frequently? Finally, the unspoken truth -- data is being harvested from every car without the owner's knowledge. So why couldn't more information be available as to a batteries care over it's lifetime?

[@konradcomrade4845]

good arguments! However if the battery_data_Logs were available and/or could be manipulated by the consumer, or with the help of "expert shops", just before a second hand sale!!!, I would be suspicious!

[@andywurst4873]

@@konradcomrade4845 - agreed. Data should be immutable and that can be managed with digital signatures.

[@praveenprajapati5581]

This amazing podcast very insightful

[@typxxilps]

Might be time to define a rule of the sweet spot cause if 250 kW is a kind of hard limit (which requires active cable cooling) and usually 350 kW is only possible for short times and big batteries then it makes not much sense to go above 250 kW. But then a bit bigger batteries becomes more important and less high fast charging over a longer time for example 250 kW from 1% to 70% or so for a lower price. Right now the progress is decreasing cause the most recent gaines were cell to pack / battery and then the battery as integral part of the car structure which lowers weight and gains range by saving 80 kg or so and gaining volume which then could be used by a few kWh more.

[@blandineetarthurdelassus8852]

It seems to me you have not seen Li Auto Mega charging at 500 kW...

[@frankdelao4067]

The Tesla semi charge cable has 2 parallel circuits of 350 kWh for a total of 700 kWh. This means the battery pack is 2 separate units. Probably not used in smaller vehicles because of extra cost.

[@badbasic]

New Porsche Taycan holds 300 KW up until 60%, I would say generalization is usually not a good thing, especially if you're trying to push new technologies to greater limits. EV market is still very new, we shouldn't hinder it's progress just because it's hard...

[@a.rostamifard]

Great interview, informative and useful. Thanks a lot.

[@gregbailey45]

It's so obvious to me that the vehicle needs to develop it's own version of the 'digital twin' of the battery, which could also easily be stored in the battery. This sort of technology has been available for years already, if not decades! All that has to be done is to legislate that the battery's history be stored in a defined form INSIDE each battery.

[@jeffg9706]

Interesting facts that give a better understanding of how to look after your battery, I've always thought that the reason the charging slows down as the battery gets more charge was because the Potential difference between the power source and the battery was getting closer so it becomes harder to push charge when the Voltage equals out.

[@flashsushi1843]

Excellent take aways. State of health (driving range/original range) is not a good predicttor of remaining life. Keeping SOC low helps with battery longevity. Fast charging is never a good thing, though convenient. There's more sensors required aside from voltage, current and temperature to fully assess the state of the battery cells. One of the few discussions where almost everything stated is factual.

[@thumper1747]

Would slow charging for nine hours overnight twice a week using 13amp household supply constituent a safe and careful charging strategy? Geoff

[@jounisaari9471]

Should avoid SOC over 80% and under 20% for extended time. If range is 300 km, and you drive only under 100 km per day, it's best to charge up to only 70 or 80% every night. Sometimes then charge to full before long trip is ok, and charging full is needed for proper balancing of the cells. Especially LFP battery needs to be charged full regularly for balancing. In Finland home charging in night time with control of electricity price is really no brainer. This summer in night time its always couple of hours less than 4c/kWh prices in my area. Sometimes even below zero. So using a smart charging like controlling the car with gridio-app according to electricity prices and car battery state is clever with wholesale (changing) electricity prices. Home charging with 11kW and trying to charge only cheapest hours of week means that with 10 h of charging is enough for 500 km driving per week really cheaply. Balancing is pretty slow, the BMS usually can use very small current for each cell balancing and the simplest way is to slowly charge the battery so that first cell is nearly full, then discharge that cell to average level. That's the way how 12V LFP recreational battery management usually works with 4 cells. LFP tolerates quite well being SOC, and the last mVs of cell voltage doesn't add much useful charge, the voltage raises quite quickly towards full soc. It is usually enough for 100Ah battery to have less than 1A discharge for cells. Keep constant voltage on charging so low that none of cells exceed limit, and discharge highest voltage cell until they have same voltage as others. If the cells are similar, it's enough to have something like 0,1A balancing current for 100Ah cells. Then 1% disbalance is mitigated in 10h, but 1% is a lot, if balancing is done at least once a month. But especially LFP batteries need balancing regularly, otherwise it's best to try to keep the SOC around middle. Tesla recommends full charge every week or so for BYD and CATL LFP batteries. Cobalt containing batteries is not recommended to charge full often and not for long time. They can be balanced easier to 80% SOC, so there is not so much need to charge full. LFP voltage curve vs SOC is flat in middle of SOC states, so balancing needs close to full charge.

[@cetocoquinto4704]

You know this topic is great! Im from the solar installation industry nice insights keep it up! Cheers from philippines.

[@boblatkey7160]

Good for you! The solar energy industry has been 100% of my income for over 25 years now. 💪

[@paolocruz8392]

9:00 is that the reason why you should keep the charge of a battery between 40-80%?

[@blueangel762]

Is 100% battery always full on battery? I have scooter it says 100% full but when I test it on multimeter it says 82,5 something, if 82,5÷20 (it's 20 series system) it gets 4,1 volts the lithium can be full at 4,2 volts?? 2nd another my scooter it's says 97v (23 series system) after got charged at 97v full, it's drop to 96,5 it's 4,19 each it is save for long run? It's already 4 years now and I feel like nothing changed on range it's like brand new

[@snodgee]

I know it’s a bit different but I had a iPhone that one day stated 98% battery health to not charging with in a few days

[@cybergigafactory]

Great episode, thanks! I would love to know how the different cell chemistries should be charged for best cycle life. NMC/NCA should be between 20-80% to prolong the battery life. LFP should be charged to 100% once a week or so. But does it help also to hold it between a specific percentage to prolonged its life or does it not matter as much?

[@mzbmwbbpkf]

+1

[@rcpmac]

Yes, there was little practical information in this presentation. That's fine, theoretical stuff is important but the video was mislabled

[@jeffreymartin4890]

Much of the digital battery twin data can is collected by a decent BMS. The voltage of each cell, over current charge, over current discharge, highest voltage cell, lowest voltage cell, back temperature, balancing, etc. So just data log that (lots of BMS units have usart, CAN, Bluetooth, and wifi.

[@decimal1815]

Interesting to see used EVs starting to be sold in the UK now with State of Health certificates that show the remaining usable capacity compared to the nominal capacity when the EV was new.

[@ToyotaKTM]

With a laptop, would it be better to always have it plugged in, when in use and charged 100% but have no charge cycles or to let it run off the battery and have a charge cycle everyday?

[@NickWindham]

Let battery run. Charging between 35% to 55% would give you the highest possible state of health for the longest time possible. Calendar aging starts increasing exponentially the higher above 55% you go and the longer you leave the battery charged over 55%. If you use the battery immediately after charging then you might bump that up to 60% because the battery won’t be much above 55% for long. If you charge the battery immediately after discharge, it’s ok to go down to as low as 10%. If you don’t charge immediately, then only go down to 20%.

[@PavolFilek]

@@NickWindham It is not about SOC, it is about conductivity, if layers of C,sep,A,sep, C ... have good thermal conductivity and pack is cooled properly, there will be small impact of temperature to DC resistence and capacity loss, more temp gradient, more damage to cells, "soft" cells, means voltage swings, cell have capacity, but do not have power, you take much current and voltage drop is huge., WHy use battery, if you can store battery at low temps and prolong calendar life ?

[@AustinTechAuthority]

It would be best to set a Charge limit of 80-85% for your laptop if constantly plugged in. Keeping the battery at 100% for long periods of time will degrade the battery health considerably over time. Dell has a Dell Power Manger App to set it on their Dell laptops and Lenovo has Lenovo Vantage App to set custom charge settings to prevent charging past a certain point. Apple has smart charging to stop charging around 80-90% depending on usage habits.

[@aftonline]

It seems to me there is a strong argument for moving to higher battery voltages in order to enable faster charging without needing thicker cables. Perhaps 800V or even higher will ultimately be the solution for really fast charging?

[@pietersmit621]

Agree, but even at 1000V(1kV) a 350kw charger still requires 350A 🤔 Maybe 1kV is not enough?

[@macmcleod1188]

I know it's not a Perfect Analogy but picture voltage as water pressure and amperage as the actual amount of current being transmitted. If you need to fill a 5-gallon bucket, there is really an ideal pressure and amount of water to fill it. A thin spray at high pressure is going to fill the 5-gallon bucket slower than half inch hose that delivers 5 gallons per minute at a lower pressure

[@rogerphelps9939]

@@macmcleod1188 It does not work like tha. The battery is in two 400 volt halves that are normally connectted in parallel. If hey are charged in parallel the charging power is 400 times the charging current. If tthey are reconfigured to series connection during charging the charging power is 800 times tthe charging current. Therefore an 800 volt system delivers twice the charging power of a 400 volt systtem at tthe same charging current.

[@erichchan3]

@@pietersmit621 Right now with Tesla v3 superchargers that push up to 250kW they are already using 520A since superchargers are using 480V. I don't think 350A is not that big of a deal.

[@_TzTz_]

Is there any bigger company actual using electrochemical impedance spectroscopy to estimate the battery conditions(internal Temperature/SoH/SoC/ESR)?

[@S0me0ne_S0meWhere_SaysHi]

In terms of the issue around large charging cables. Why can't the charging voltage be increased such that there is less current flow reducing the physical size of the cable?

[@Tore_Lund]

Big unwieldy cables are not the problem. It is just unfeasible with the way people charge now. We could easily have another high power charging standard, with say a Pantograph that comes out of the ground under the car, that would require no user interaction at all.

[@konradcomrade4845]

or if a heaavier cable would be suspended, hanging on an swinging, counter-weighted arm, then it would be no problem.

[@erichchan3]

I would hope at some point the industry would move to 800V charging so that the current numbers can be lowered to hopefully reduce heating and either maintain the current size cable or even have thinner cables. But I understand that the struggles with 800V charging architecture is expensive and would need increased economies of scale. Would be nice to see an EV industry move to 800V charging infrastructure but also improve the battery chemistry that can take 800V charging as well.

[@jimgraham6722]

Operating, charging/refuelling an EV is a different paradigm to ICE vehicles. In my experience fast charging is to a large degree irrelevant as it is something I have rarely found a need to do.

[@macmcleod1188]

When you have an electric vehicle and you are a homeowner, or your condominium or apartment has a connection for an electric vehicle, you leave every morning with a full tank. Well for battery life, a full enough tank that you won't have to refill that day. You only charge up to over 90% if you really are driving over 250 me that day.

[@christ1737]

I only charge to 70% every workday and use 20% before charging slowly overnight

[@macmcleod1188]

Just an update, 900,000 people lost power in my city over the last week. I asked my Tesla neighbor how he got by. And he said that Tesla had all but one of the power stations back up immediately. He had to go and fill up one time. He would not have had to do that but he had to go buy gasoline for his small generator that was keeping one window unit and the refrigerator and a TV and cable modem running. He was not stressed out and I let him know that when we were hit by a major hurricane power was down for 3 weeks and suggested he make some preparations for that worst case scenario. During that disaster there was no gasoline within 70 Mi of the city for at least the first 7 days and the stores were empty. I got through this time with a 4300 watt dual propane gasoline generator and a 1,000 watt solar battery with 200 watts of solar panels. The only change I can see making is to buy 200 Watts more panels and to get three more tanks of propane if a hurricane is forecast to go across the city. And I offered to let him charge off of my generator which will give him about 4 mph of charging without impacting me very heavily.

[@m43_felix]

23:56 how about "cold charging" in theory and practise ?

[@ahbushnell1]

Note with the same current and higher voltage batteries the power will increase and faster charging will result.

[@gerrys6265]

It seems to me that, since charging regimes are different between automakers, individuals, and battery manufacturers (all of which affect the future health, capacity and life of the battery) That it might be useful to install a "black box" in the car that simply records what happens o the battery over its use so people who might want to buy the car, or just the battery, can in some way assess the 'state of health' of said battery. What I wonder also is why don't the phone companies, auto manufacturers etc build in an algorithm that protects the battery so it doesn't hold it at 100% but instead turn off the charge at 80 % - or even at 100%. That shouldn't bee too difficult to do...? It seems to me that we are always chasing technology to try to accommodate the unwillingness of humans to change their expectations/behaviour and accept reality. Yes, and I can already hear the tirades of curbing innovation and all that but we have gotten to the point where our focus on ever-more complex technology is actually eroding our own potential and we become dumber and dumber as we rely more and more on computerization to think for us. I bought a Toyota electric car and its charging regime is very slow compared to other electric vehicles on the road. Toyota says it is trying to protect the battery and the discussion in this video highlights the issues around that. The question is still one of people deciding how to user the technology. Due to the current state of technology and how far behind Toyota is, I would never buy another Toyota of any kind - they put out a [comparatively] crappy car and basically betrayed their loyal supporters. Trade-off always come into play but I would rather have a useful car for ten years than a crappy one for 20 (Toyota's claim). Comes down to acceptance again. I would have thought by now that battery science would be able to pretty well dictate/predict what works and how. Great discussion in this video....thanks.

[@racingtogreen2023]

Wondering about the science about this, and if charging to 100% on an NMC battery(Ford Lightning) is damaging if you are only charging at 12 amps/2.7kW(through an offgrid solar installation). We've cut back to 80% but wonder if we really have to?

[@ahbushnell1]

Great video!!!

[@BubbaBearsFriend]

Isn't a major part of the problem how fast cell designs are changing every few years, so one cell construction and/or chemistry isn't manufactured long enough to gather long term data that isn't not relevant since those cells are no longer manufactured.

[@liem107]

What about DC pulse charging. Can it easily be integrated in current DC fast chargers to mitigate battery degradation?

[@hilkokoetje404]

This is confusing. Okay, they agree on keeping low SoC but this tesla prof says it’s the %DoD effecting degradation, “micro-cracking” of iron oxide crystals within the battery cells occurs much more at full charge-discharge cycles. His advice was to charge less at a time at low maximum SoC to 75% max. Also, I think “plating”, when lithium gets lost, he called “dissolution”.

[@rickyjulian496]

Wrap kevlar around those cables to slow down theft.

[@gregcollins3404]

Don't use the cheap, #17 14-50 receptacles for level 2 charging of your EV. They are made of cheap plastic and will melt sooner or later even though the charging amps are kept well below the 50amp rating. They just can't handle the multi-hour charging temps that an EV load puts on them. Use the $90 kind (Hubbell) that are made much more robustly.

[@otm646]

Never use a receptacle. I don't care if you use the Hubble, they're still not nearly as safe as a hardwired EVSE.

[@gregcollins3404]

@@otm646 yes, but when I travel I want to take the adapter with me...

[@tomwojcik7896]

do you have ANY data to support your assertion? any UL-approved receptable is tested to its max currents and temperatures ratings, and yes, that is continuous current. I've been charging my tesla on a "cheap plastic" 14-50 receptacle for 2 years, winter and summer, and the receptacle doesn't even get warm.

[@tomwojcik7896]

@@otm646 do you have ANY data to support your assertion? how many fires / injuries / deaths have there been per hour of usage on receptacles vs hardwired EVSEs? (that's what safety means).

[@gregcollins3404]

@@tomwojcik7896 I had it happen to me after 5 years of charging on the same outlet. All the EV charging channels have talked about it. here is the one from Munro & Assoc. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnXTaoOeha-bi6s

[@xhobv02]

I charge at home with 2 kW power up to 80% capacity. For my casual driving its ok.

[@rogerphelps9939]

I mostly do tthat. If I do it when the sun is shining it is a good match to my average roofttop solar panel output.

[@constantbuzz]

If an EV were to have a type of odometer- or a log recorder stored in nondestructive / non-resettable memory showing amount of recharge KWH at a +50KW rate, number of KWH discharged while under 20% SOC, and number of hours battery pack spent at 100% SOC (for non iron phosphate packs) , this would give good metrics to amount of wear of tear. Outside of that, a 20 mile drive cycle where amount KHW delivered can be correlated to the percent of charge drop, and then compared to when the pack was new. Example: M3 LR pack is 82KWH/80KWH usable, 1% of charge is 800WH at 75 degrees F when new. A noticeably degraded cell will start delivering less WH per a percent of charge at the same temp.

[@daveulmer]

What is that little orange screen device stuck on the wall next to Billy Wu ?

[@Flash1857]

Very in and interesting, will check the rest of the series. Someone needs to design a safe add on battery pack to lower the range fears of EV. And FYI my phone battery is useless at 88% of health, but luckily they have battery cases till I can afford a new phone 🖖

[@somutfaydalarpesinde3289]

How come 88% health is useless?

[@Flash1857]

@@somutfaydalarpesinde3289 really not, planning on getting one more year out of phone. Then it’s a backup and MP4 player. Thanks ( useless is probably the wrong word, less useful is better )

[@joahash7411]

Thank you so much. May I ask a question? If I’m only using 15% of my battery in my EV, Tesla model 3LR, per day on average, What level of charge is recommended to make this battery last as long as possible. Research I have observed is to keep it between 60%-40%. Thank you so much.

[@moestrei]

Yes a lithium iron battery of any flavour likes to shallow cycle around 50% SOC. But the BMS has some requirements too: To accurately predict range it occasionally needs to take data points from almost empty to full. Whilst cylindrical cells, where many are grouped in parallel (Tesla Model S 74p6s in each module) which means they averaging out and almost never require balancing, large block prismatic cells do require top balancing which mostly happens in the area 95%-100%. Therefore say every 2-3 months I would do a larger cycle. My 5 cents worth, happy to be corrected.

[@mondotv4216]

@@moestreiUsed to be my 2 cents - that's inflation for you!

[@joahash7411]

Very insightful. Thank you so much. I just got a new battery under warranty and it would be amazing if I could get some serious miles out of it. Right now I’m on my 3rd battery at 72k miles.

[@kevinhill1851]

@@joahash7411 That is quite surprising - general thinking these days is that EVs with proper thermal management will get a full car lifetime out of each battery. What car is it that you have?

[@joahash7411]

@@kevinhill1851 2021 Tesla model 3 LR. The first owner replaced the battery at about 48k. She was clueless and charged it to 100% each time and ran it almost all the way down. Her parents bought it brand new for her 16 year old birthday. I bought it at 61k last year. Researched proper charging and conditions for longevity. Usually never charged above 80%. Then about 2 months ago, received a noticed saying something to the effect “car ok to drive schedule service battery unable to reach optimum charging”. I scheduled service and a few days later another warning saying vehicle will not charge any additional amount. I contacted Tesla service and they had me bring it in that day. My Tesla had already ordered itself a new battery and they had it fixed with a new battery in 2 days. Extremely easy stress free experience and they gave me a loaner model y performance which I thoroughly enjoyed. Overall an amazing experience. However, I never want to face this while out of warranty. Thanks for your thoughts and input. PS I live in phoenix Az where last year we substantially broke some heat records.

[@christianolssontravels]

I always trickle charge my Jaguar. BMS goes haywire if it goes under 11,5 volts. So I try to drive it as much as I can since it charges the battery during driving.

[@dennism7813]

Very interesting discussion. A thought occurred to me regarding battery degradation. With potholes in our roads multiplying rapidly. The vibration caused by driving a car with an out of balanced wheel will surely impact the integrity of the battery when you consider the sheer number of physical connections in an EV'S battery. Just a thought...

[@douglaswatt1582]

Incredibly unlikely I suppose if you had a wildly out of balance wheel and a poorly latticed battery connections, you might run into some issues. It's definitely not an issue in any Tesla

[@galaxiedance3135]

Eventually, it will all be wireless charging. Or at least for the most part. You can be 100% sure that Robo Taxi will be wireless charging. There are busses in China which already charge wirelessly at 500 KWh. Also there is very little loss. Perhaps that will improve with technology. SO the weight of the cable shouldn't be a factor for THAT much longer.

[@Ehumanist]

I understand the positives of the industry working together but we all know that at the end of the day if that does happen the industry will just find the best cost option and it will not necessarily push for more innovation. Competition creates innovation. Collaboration ultimately creates conspiracy based on history

[@2kMario]

EV Manufacturers should add bigger buffer for EV batteries to avoid getting close to overcharging limits , if battery 100% charge is 4.2V make it 4.12 as maximum charge ,the same at the bottom , when lowest safe is 2.8V make it 2,88V as a lowest voltage .

[@rcpmac]

Consumers want more range (that the almost never need) and want to pay less for it (it costs more, and weighs more). So don't give me SHOULD

[@2kMario]

@@rcpmac bollocks

[@m43_felix]

new videos when ? 👀

[@batterygeneration]

Hopefully soon!

[@andrewsaint6581]

Digital twin of every car including the battery chemistry and even the wheel nut torques is held by Tesla. The know everything about every car all the time, they're all connected.

[@jellyd4889]

All car companies can generate a digital twin of any car they have produced over the last ten years. And regarding the wheel torque: how pointless. Who is feeding you this gunk?

[@andrewsaint6581]

@@jellyd4889 you know best. There are many folk cleverer than me on here. I just loaded up TSLA April 2019 when I realised how crap my Toyota yaris hybrid was. It was giving me range anxiety. I ended just filling up every evening. It's easier with my Chinese MG 4 ev I just plug it in overnight like I do my phone. It was a terrible decision as you will know. And explain.

[@Johnny-dp5mu]

I own the battery. I own the data. Digital twin?

[@ZoranAUS]

woohoo people that speak my language, subbed

[@batterygeneration]

haha

[@Pago77]

If fast charging requires cooling it must mean that some of the electricity you are paying for at the charger is actually being wasted in heating the coolant. Presumably the customer is paying for this wasted electricity. Given the exorbitant costs of electricity at fast chargers this is going to a significant cost.

[@batterygeneration]

You are correct. Same principles apply to power electronics as well. The more power, the more heat. That‘s why wie should talk about 800V and silicon carbide (SiC) as soon as possible 😉

[@brucec954]

Most of the cost of "Public DCFC" is not the electricity but the cost of the land, charging equipment, repair of (failing or vandalism), demand charges etc

[@moestrei]

Its a small percentage only but yes it's there. You might not believe it but there are people who drive around in vehicles where 80% of the energy delivered to the propulsion system ends up as wasted heat.

[@guillermoherlt5141]

​@@moestreiVery good comment. But you might need to say out loud "fossil fuels" as some could not go get it

[@Pago77]

My point was that when you fast charge you are effectively paying more for the net charge you have received. Whereas with fossil you get what you pay for no matter how quickly you fill your tank. Just something that consumers should be made aware of.

[@vulcan4d]

Keep charge between 45 and 75% and you will get a stupid low amount of degradation. Perhaps 9years before hitting 90%. Also slow charge as much as possible.

[@ezg8448]

250 kilowatts is the hard limit for passively cooled cables... If only typical charging speeds were anywhere CLOSE to that number, even 1/2 is good! One of the problems is the shoddy BMS systems being used EVs today. Be it the cooling or the mechanical board being used.

[@MrAdopado]

What is "shoddy" about the BMS?

[@ezg8448]

@@MrAdopado - It controls the how much amps can safely flow into the system. Many systems aren't built with control systems to allow the battery to charge at it's maximum rate hence it's "shoddy" Tesla has active cooling and heating in their BMS systems, many other companies use passive cooling which isn't enough. That's just one example.

[@Quickcat21MK]

We should add 1% gold to the aluminum cathode.

[@andywurst4873]

BATTERY PASSPORT: "A battery passport would keep a record of an individual battery's constituent parts, aiming to increase transparency throughout the supply chain. Information about the battery's raw material provenance, manufacturing, carbon credentials, human rights record, usages and more would be digitally recorded." That doesn't benefit the consumer, this is for politician's control. A better passport would track charging cycles, environment, load application, charging history (abusive?). This information could be developed to provide REAL value to consumers rather than the political bickering built in to the existing passport.

[@Top12Boardsport]

Price of batteries will still fall the coming 10 years. Zoo cost for batteries will not be the most valuable part.

[@Adamexpol]

Dear Doctor, You should update Your knowledge, because now Tesla owners use Charging Towels ... You do not need liquid cooled cables...

[@Snerdles]

This is high tech stuff here, rather than wet towels you should refer to these as reusable portable phase change cooling devices.

[@rjbiker66]

So the stupid telsa owner puts a wet cloth over the charging plug to fool the sensor that it's not overheating. What could possibly go wrong.

[@chrissmith2114]

The takeaway is if you charge a battery too fast and too full your battery will die... We get bombarded with 'claims by EV makers on ultra-short charging times, but doing that kills the chemistry. Bottom line is EV will never equal ICE in 'refueling time' and convenience.. Nobody ever told me that filling my petrol tank too fast, or filling it to 100% would damage it...

[@batterygeneration]

Yeah, I guess you‘re right the battery will never beat the gas in terms of refueling time. Keep in mind this is a tech channel, no consumer has to care about this except for the battery management system. On a side note: ICE will never equal BEVs in low maintenance, low operating costs, high safety, low CO2 emissions and huge lifespan. A nice trade-off, right?

[@batterygeneration]

The consumer himself does not have to care about charging the EV too fast… that would be horrific! 😮

[@chrissmith2114]

@@batterygeneration latest CarWow reliability stats in UK for 2024 show 3 x EV in the top ten ( worst reliability ) Tesla model Y at 6th, Tesla model X at 3rd, and BMW i8 at number 1.... Along with normal Range Rover and Audi suspects. Survey covers how often the vehicles break down and the cost to repair. As for lifespan, average ICE is >20 years, the jury is still out on EV..

[@batterygeneration]

@@chrissmith2114 Hm. Interesting ranking. These tests normally show a big lead for EVs for low maintenance.

[@timsteinkamp2245]

I will tell you. At semi refueling with big hose diesel pumps it said to not fuel full bore as you could have back flow on trucks or multiple pump turn offs because of smaller fuel piping. I would suggest that we Americans have been conditioned to fill fast and get out for the next guy so the station can maximize income. Maybe we need to slow down. It is like traveling at 80 or 60 mph. Once we are all in robotaxi we might not care about the minutes of time.

[@PravdaSeed]

🌀🔋 Thanks

[@otm646]

He's getting all of the little but very important points incorrect.16:00 battery temperature not external ambient temperature is what limits charge performance. As soon as the battery as preconditioned aka heated up to above freezing temperatures It will charge at high speed like normal.

[@rjbiker66]

You just have to have the power available in the battery to pre-condition

[@angelamartim8337]

2:44

[@georgelewis8831]

See how Tesla is doing it for the semi - enough said.

[@arbor318]

The reality is not as simple as the model. Too complicated model could be misleading in decisions.

[@defaultHandle1110]

Fast charging creates fractures in batteries. Nothing can be done till they build them different. Good. News they figured it out, bad news: not sure when they will put into mass scale production across all brands.

[@shihanhe2992]

So, my take away is that battery swap will be much easier solution.

[@diegeeleel]

When you see the letters 'Dr' and they are not ascribed to a ....ehehe.... G.P. It's time to "listen up".

[@tommykaira8775]

Cellphones should have given enough real life experience in battery behaviour

[@MrAdopado]

Only helpful to understand smart phone batteries ... but not EV batteries! EV batteries are not simply bigger versions of what's in your phone (thank goodness).

[@MrTj4511]

Nonsense, 800V DC, 500kw chargers are widely available and no need for any cooled cables

[@initialdwu7821]

This is why I'll always stay with ICE vehicles.

[@AKUJA81]

Tesla fahren ist besonders effizient😊

[@pepeshopping]

“EVs will get to recharge as fast as gas cars, in a few years!”. NO THEY WILL NOT!!! (not in the next 7-10 years). (Maybe only for long trips, or rushed times, but not all the time, if you do care for the life/cycles of the battery!).

[@Paul-ng4jx]

Yes for old batteries, but they got new batteries with zero degradation so either facts me nothing

[@jolly1039]

Oh wait me petrol car has none of these issues lol!!!!!

[@JohnD0129]

Well I guess your few of the lucky ones 🤣

[@jolly1039]

@@JohnD0129 petrol degradation from charging? Sure.. I am the lucky one

[@JohnD0129]

@@jolly1039 your petrol engine degrades every time you start the vehicle 🤣

[@jolly1039]

​@@JohnD0129 You are comparing apple and oranges. Battery degradation in comparison with petrol degradation

[@JohnD0129]

@@jolly1039 no sir I’m comparing transportation vehicles in general. Doest matter if it’s Petrol vs EV. All parts degrade over time and are expensive.

[@latitudeash]

Really use-fall, convinced me EV’s are not ready and I will not get one.

[@barr96]

I'd rather just sit in a NIO and let battery swap manage it all, within 4 minutes.....

[@rjbiker66]

Who owns the battery in your car? Would you swap you shiny new battery with some unknown battery?

[@barr96]

@rjbiker66 until a few days later and you swap it out again? You're worrying over nothing 😀 Besides, just think of the resale value of an EV, which is 4+ years old where you have zero understanding if its been correctly charged over its lifetime.... the solution? Battery swap.

[@rjbiker66]

@@barr96 a few days later someone else has swap their battery with your original.

[@barr96]

@@rjbiker66 you're missing the point. You don't own the battery :)

[@rjbiker66]

@@barr96 so what happens when you want to sell the car?