Dr. James White - Two Different Views on Hell Debated (Unbelievable Radio Program)

Justin Brierley is the host of the Unbelievable radio program (www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable) in the UK. Guest speaker, Dr. James White (www.aomin.org), debates for the orthodox view of hell and against Annihilation.
This debate was free for download on Monergism.com MP3 section.

[@foreverinchrist1]

So true my friend. I argued on the case of Esau and Jacob Sunday against an Arminian Pastor. He told the reason that God chose Jacob over Esau was because Esau had sin against God. I ask him to read Romans 9:11 and tell me what Paul said why God elected Jacob over Esau. He was speechless! Praise God for the truth!!

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

Thank you for making this programme available on KZbin.

[@anthonytechico947]

Thank you so much for this Episode. God bless you more in the Lord!

[@CBALLEN]

“And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

[@paulchalberg8820]

What I see in reading the comments is that there is so little brotherly love for James White that those who attack him for standing up for Christian doctrine should check themselves first because I see more hate coming from them and the Bible calls hatred for a brother the same as murder so they need to REPENT

[@Paula-pd6qv]

So true

[@enhancedcalm]

There are thousands of phrases in the bible that are figurative language (and they know this), and they can't grasp that "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" is figurative. It stuns me. Even by the way it is phrased, it is (figuratively) telling you that it is figurative language. "The *smoke* of their torment" COME ON....how much more obvious can it get? And they want to proof-text this scripture into their doctrine? UNBELIEVABLE.

[@user-zs2ly5qu3f]

Given the Fact that every Christian has the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Truth you would think that the believer would be more Decerning. Eternal Punishment cannot mean Unending Conscious Torment. If this was True then God would be a Cosmic Sociopath with a Sadistic Twist. God is a Consuming Fire. Thank God for the Annihilation of the Lost. See. 2 Pet. 2:6...

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Yes and that phrase initially comes from Isaiah 34 which talks about the destruction literally of Edom

[@TheReformedJW]

Great video!

[@SolaScriptura21]

Good point, always enjoy insight.

[@wadegray2689]

Unbelievable, geesh...... sooo, God can't annihilate someone, because we are made in His image and it would be like Him attacking himself, but He can assign you to eternal torment....so how would that not be like attacking Himself also...Good Grief!

[@MrMarkovka11]

Nooo... God is eternal and therefore WE are eternal because we are created in His image. It's quite simple.

[@ManlyServant]

@@MrMarkovka11 ahaha checkmate!

[@rdneonian7680]

Truth is ultimate reconciliation Col 1:20, Rom 5:18-19, 1 Cor 15:20-28, Philipians 2:9-11, 1 John 2:2, John 1:29, John 12:32,

[@Nickvrey]

Thank you for posting ! May God Bless and keep you in Jesus name I pray Amen :)

[@DanYuleo]

This is the first debate where I'm not thoroughly convinced by James White's position. The thing for me is not that annihilation has a strong biblical basis, but that eternal torment's biblical basis is a lot weaker than I once thought.

[@juliuscox94]

Dan Yuleo You will someday know the truth that annihilation is the actual position in which Jesus and all the apostles had held too.. Eternally burning forever cannot coincide with the laws of nature and it's illogical at best..

[@juliuscox94]

Dan Yuleo Jude 7 proves annihilation read it!👍

[@DanielWesleyKCK]

This specific debate is a fantastic example of what we do to the bible when we don't pay attention to its sociological and cultural context. It sure looks like the text is talking about eternal pain, right? And if you're experiencing eternal pain, it goes without saying that you must exist consciously, forever. Well, that makes sense if you're a modern and/or western reader. The funny thing is, though, is that the bible wasn't written by modern or western people. It was written by ancient near eastern people who were completely immersed in an honor/shame culture, and those descriptions of eternal 'pain' make much more sense as descriptions of eternal 'shame' - and you *don't* have to exist consciously, forever, to experience eternal shame. Suddenly, what seems self-evident, isn't anymore. If anything, it stands as a call to go back and reevaluate the traditional position in light of the religious, sociological, and cultural context that the bible lives in, and that context is not ours.

[@classycactus8449]

Sounds like what Samurai would say. The Bible only really emphasizes honor in relation to God. Moreover, since when did God consult human culture for his eternal plans?

[@MagicMayers]

​@@classycactus8449Possibly by inspiring certain individuals in certain cultural contexts to write in their own style to specific peoples in a way they would readily understand due to that cultural context what He wanted to relay to them. Just the same as when Jesus called himself "Son of Man" all the time. The people he was speaking to would have immediately known he was claiming the title of the figure in the prophecy of Daniel.

[@ryangallmeier5987]

As a Reformed/Calvinistic credo-Baptist myself, I can honestly say that I strongly disagree with James White's position. There indeed _will be_ a lake of fire (what we can call 'hell'), but it is intended (in the eschaton only) to completely destroy, burn up, and annihilate the wicked along with Satan and the demons. There will be absolutely no room for any sinful creature on God's New Earth! The Bible does not teach that the burning 'hell' is under the earth. The Bible does not teach that the burning 'hell' is on some other planet, or star (like the sun, or some other place). The Bible does not teach that on the New Earth, with Christ as King and His people inhabiting it, God will somehow section-off Australia and make it the place where the wicked burn (without dying, meaning, they have eternal life) throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity (sorry, no offense to our Australian friends, but your country is so big that it is also classified as its own continent). No, the Bible teaches that the burning up of the wicked will take place on the surface of the earth; but, if it burns throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity, where will the saints be on it? Again, is God going to section-off Australia and make that the lake of fire which will burn throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity? *Soli Deo Gloria*

[@tentmaker2254]

ive never heard of a baptist who believes in annihilationism, nice to meet one, do u also believe in the trinity ?

[@ryangallmeier5987]

Yes. I believe in the biblically-derived doctrine that we call, 'the Trinity'. But not because Rome says so; not because any historic creedal statement says so; but because the Bible clearly teaches it.

[@nxah__gone]

Ryan Gallmeier Do you have a contact email?

[@r.crompton2286]

Ryan Gallmeier I'm rather surprised reading your comments. Can you explain the "...burning...on the surface of the earth. as it applies to man's annihilation. I read in 1 Cor. 3:15 that man's works shall either abide or be burned up (annihilated). But I find no references in Scripture whatsoever pertaining to the termination of suffering for the lost. We know that hell is a reality and the lake of fire is not yet open for business; but you don't qualify your position on the termination of the lake of fire or any other fire of judgment with Scripture verses. Can you disprove Mark 9:43,44,45,46,48 -- five verses that repeatedly warn about the looming reality of an eternal torment for the lost. Also in Rev. 20:10 we read that the beast and the false prophet (both human beings) are cast into the lake of fire. There they shall be tormented for ever and ever. The Greek "äion" is used twice in succession giving the intent that it is everlasting. Since the beast and the false prophet suffer eternally, it goes without saying that the rest of the human dead whose names are not written in the Book of Life will also find their abode in that same eternal suffering (20:14,15) Taking into consideration that the soul of man is either saved or lost and because the soul is eternal (please read Augustine of Hippo's " The Immortality of the Soul), it clearly proves what the Bible states concerning the eternality of the soul viz. it simply cannot be altered or destroyed. I don't particularly warm (no pun intended) to the concept of the lake of fire. If I were God, I'd do it differently; nevertheless, what God has clearly declared shall surely come to pass. Your comments, please

[@R1K2G3]

@SaintsEdified Ah, yes, so you believe in the immortality even of the wicked. Glad we can now see why your position is so devoid of biblical truth. Thanks for the discussion.

[@silentcal275]

Ah nice relaxing podcast before bed :-)

[@joecheffo5942]

About hell?

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

​@@joecheffo5942(he was dropped as a child)ᵃⁿᵈ ⁿᵒᵗ ᵒⁿᶜᵉ

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

James keeps speaking about how sinners will still be sinning in hell. So, according to his theology, God creates "non-elect" people with ONLY the capacity for sin and rebellion - that is, brains that can only chemically form sinful rebellious thoughts, hands that can only commit sinful rebellious actions, feet that can only walk sinful rebellious paths - then He judges them worthy of death because of the sinful rebellion that they can ONLY produce by the very nature He gave them, then after the death of their temporal bodies, He will RE-create them with eternal bodies and brains that are forever ONLY capable of sinful rebellion, then continue to torture them for each fresh act of sin and rebellion that they are forever ONLY capable of committing by virtue of the ETERNAL sinful rebellious nature HE re-created them with??!? Perhaps one of you good Calvinist exegetical geniuses can "unpack" that for me!!

[@myles7446]

Break this down for me.... On the assumption that you believe God truly is omniscient. You believe in a God who created people, who He knew would reject them, even after He puts His full effort forward. In putting that full effort forward, He knew good and well that that effort wouldn't be good enough because, in the end, they would reject Him and end up in Hell. I'm sorry but that position is far more foolish than the reformed position. I don't think the issue lies in Calvinism or Arminianism, but in someones idea of the character of God. Why is it wrong for God to crete people who He can use to demonstrate His wrath upon (Romans 9)? What basis does ANYONE have to call anything that God does wrong? He is the standard. Now you may not like that, but that's irrelevant. I would examine your own position as well. And again, this is on the assumption that you aren't an open theist.

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

IAmReptar You've definitely misunderstood my point. And you've incorrectly stated my belief. See, I don't believe in a god who, as you put it, puts forth "His full effort" knowing "that effort wouldn't be good enough", so that people "end up in Hell" (A word that, by the way, doesn't exist and isn't taught in any of the original Hebrew or Greek scriptures!). I don't believe in a god whose "full effort" is "not enough" to overcome any human being's puny self-destructive "freewill" in the end. That's NOT the All-Powerful, All-Sovereign, All-Loving God I believe in! Calvinism believes in a god who is all-sovereign, but NOT all-loving. Arminianism believes in a god who is all-loving, but NOT all-sovereign. I find both theologies not only deficient, but repugnant.

[@SaintsEdified]

Read Romans 9 if you haven't ripped that out of your Bible yet; Paul "unpacks" that for you nicely in there. :)

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

+SaintsEdified Have studied Romans 9 for quite a while now. I got NO problem with Paul. I just happen to think that the Calvinist "unpacking" is a load of crap! Much prefer the universalist "unpacking" of it.

[@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104]

YHWH created adam good. adam's seed was constituted sinners by his (adam) rebellion. so adam gave them the nature

[@andybeaire2507]

Wow if I'm a non believer this doctrine gives me hope. Why should I live a godly life if my punishment is just death? I don't have to fear death if I'm not going to remember it! Or if I'm only going to suffer a fire torment I will only feel it for a short time not remembering it after my soul and mind are destroyed. What this tells me is I don't have to be accountable because who cares, I wont remember it. I will have no knowledge of ever existing. This is a great doctrine for a person who wants to end his life! Who cares, I will be dead! I wont even know I ever existed! I may even want to consider living a very selfish life killing, robbing, raping, etc. because if my only punishment is a death I will not remember, so be it! This is a foolish doctrine that (if I was the devil) would indeed want a person to believe. God is indeed a holy God and a holy God must punish sin. This man made doctrine of hell takes away the sting of hell by saying that its not going to be that bad! What motivation do I now have as a non-believer? The alternative doesn't look so bad to me. Because I will have no memory of it if I'm dead and destroyed. If I'm not in heaven alive I'm dead with no memory of even existing. Oh well! I'm sure its going to be painful and its going to just suck to be burned up, but I'm not going to remember it!

[@WilliamTanksleyJr]

+Andy Beaire First, if one's a non-believer this doctrine cannot give one hope because one is a non-believer and doesn't believe this doctrine, or any other. Second, this doctrine doesn't give hope, because death is the end of all hope. Hope is looking to the future for a good experience. Death is the negation of that. Finally, your concern is that hell look appropriately bad in the eyes of the unsaved at the very end. But the Spirit tells us that we will look on the unsaved with abhorrence. Their decisions in life will seem completely misguided. One of the decisions they make is to be ungrateful for the gift of life -- to throw it away. Here's a quote from the great theologian of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus: --- He thus speaks respecting the salvation of man: He asked life of You, and You gave him length of days for ever and ever; indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.

[@jerapierce]

+Andy Beaire If you have to be scared into Christianity, what good is that Christianity? True conversion comes by love, not a fear of everlasting burning. The wages of sin is death, not everlasting life in hell. It is the living power of Jesus Christ that transforms a person. This transformation comes with a thirst for truth, and a deep desire to know and do the will of God, not a fear of eternal torment. It is true your punishment will not as bad as Catholics and Jesuits want to make it out to be, if you choose to be lost, but wouldn't you rather choose Life?

[@WilliamTanksleyJr]

Think of all the apostles' sermons recorded in Acts. Never did the mere fear of torment enter into them -- in fact, only once is punishment threatened, and that's to be "destroyed utterly from among the people" (Acts 3). Think of your own experience. When you evangelize, how realistic is it really to just _tell_ someone that the alternative is a metaphysical eternal torment? Unless they just trust you _already_ there's no reason they'd believe it's true; all their experience tells them their problem is a life of suffering that ends in _death_ and decaying to dust, not eternal torment (see Genesis 3). Amazingly, Jesus offers the remedy for the problem they actually know about -- the sinful life that's going to end. He offers His own holiness and everlasting life in God's presence. So rather than having to waste time convincing them of "the bad news" -- a problem they have no way of knowing about -- tell them about the good news as the remedy to the bad news they already know.

[@coryabouaf7713]

+Andy Beaire Good point! However, how many people who wanted to commit suicide would end it in a way that they know that they will be suffering in a fire like tormenting heat and possibly tormenting demons (worse than Isis) for eons (Greek for an undefined amount of years), then face worse, the fearful and dreaded Great White Throne Judgment of God's wrath where they can't wait to get away just before they are thrown in the Lake of Fire and then begin to have their soul destroyed for more eons and eons (the literal Greek used in Rev 20:10 (αἰών, αἰώνιος) and then are finally destroyed as John 15:6 and Matt 10:28 say: If anyone does not abide in me (L)he is thrown away like a branch and withers; (M)and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Now some would say that this is not fair because the people who died 6000 years ago would have that much more suffering of torment than those who died at the end. Remember, God's eternal time doesn't work the way our time here on earth. We've learned from modern science that even time on different planets and areas of different gravity and expansion speeds differ in their time. Even God say a day is like a thousand years... So the torment within the "eternal time zone" will be at the perfect level or justice, time etc... because God is the perfect judge. However, why would He use the words like mortality, destroy, melt, dissolve, 2nd death, end, no future, eons, etc.... concerning the wicked if it really meant "infinite torment"? Why would He want a new universe to have a place where wickedness, sin and division continue to exist infinitely? Why wouldn't He simply want to completely fulfill the words" ...no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away...."? Why would He want a place where there would still be crying, pain and somethings that never passed away, when God is about making everything 1 with Him?

[@coryabouaf7713]

+Rush Ron Me too! God has given me patience with them, with myself and with Him as He slowly but surely teaches me to sift through all the crud theologies to make my way towards the ultimate goal - loving HIm and loving others. If the theology doesn't promote that first and foremost, it is worthless. I don't think He came to start another religion either. That's why when I came to believe in Him, I never left the fact and reality that I'm still a Jew - just one who now believes in Jesus.

[@richmondlevin6562]

i have been through some stuff and the fire is no contest to darkness

[@R1K2G3]

@2row777 What passage did you want me to deal with specifically?

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

If one studies deeper conditional immortality only makes sense when one accepts the biblical teaching or truth of so called "soul sleep". Lets remember what the Lord has said, "Lazarus sleeps.....Lazarus is dead."

[@renefinch]

jamie Russell No such thing as literal soulsleep mate and the bible doesnt teach it,get away from soloman and listen to Jesus paul the apostle and look up the page..

[@WilliamTanksleyJr]

+rene finch Solomon didn't disagree with Jesus, and anyone who thinks he does didn't understand one or both. I find it ironic that you claim the Bible doesn't teach soul sleep, and yet you're able to tell us which Biblical author actually DID teach it. Of course, David, Isaiah, and Jesus taught it as well -- consider Psalm 88:10, 6:5; Isa 38:18; John 11. So did Paul, in 1 Cor 15.

[@retsea1]

Simply put, go to Revelations: The second death of the wicked, the death of the soul, is eternal destruction-body and spirit both must die, which is why Christ said that no one who believes in him will die even though everyone experiences the first death of the body.

[@johnjustjohn8168]

Than why would Jesus come...to save us from temporal punishment.. i honestly didnt hear anything more stupid than that..

[@wm5000]

@@johnjustjohn8168 Jesus came to give you eternal life, and wants to spend eternity with you, stop focuses on the negative. If you follow Jesus to avoid something rather than to gain something then there's something slightly wrong with your approach. Grace and peace

[@johnjustjohn8168]

@@wm5000 if eternal destruction would be real than Jesus indeed came for NOTHING.. anyway you look at it ...

[@wm5000]

@@johnjustjohn8168 No brother, Jesus came to give eternal life. No one can attain eternal life unless they are born of the Holy spirit, and their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus christ that was shed for us on the cross. If Jesus didn't come to earth to die for our sins, you and me would be on our way to hell when we die, to be punished, and then for both our bodies and souls destroyed in the lake of fire, as Jesus said. But praise Jesus! He was faithful unto death, and we can walk in freedom and glorious relationship with Him in this earthly existence, and then when we die, in eternal glorious existence clothed in our new bodies, sharing relationship with Jesus christ for all eternity!

[@seanchaney3086]

Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 22:15

[@CBALLEN]

The word resurrection always,always refers to a bodily resurrection and some will awake to everlasting bliss,while others awake to ever;lasting shame.The Spirit of the dead will go to Hell or Heaven to await the time they are rejoined with their indestructible spiritual bodies(Just like the body of Christ) and these bodies will never die,this is why the Lake of fire and every lasting life with God are both eternal.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

I actually think as it stands that James White knows very well the arguments for Annihilation are so strong however the strong hold of the traditional view still outweighs the merits of annihilationism for him. And that's the case with most people in order to change they need to be about 99% convinced. If that were the case for the traditional view it would fold in a very short space of time but because it is the entrenched and so-called Orthodox view that is held onto so firmly it's still maintains it's grip on people. I know people who accept verse after verse after verse confirming annihilationism but because they can't reconcile just one verse they still hold on to the traditional view.

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 (3) Matthew 25 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." (v41) "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v46) I'll stick with this for now. So explain to me how you can read a passage like this (of the many that are in the Bible) and still say that there is no such thing as eternal punishment? (Try to avoid ad hominems please.)

[@enhancedcalm]

The punishment is eternal --> their death will be eternal. Rom. 6:23 "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." God does not give the gift of eternal life to them just so they can be alive to be tormented forever. Eternal life is only given as a reward.

[@ManlyServant]

@@enhancedcalm Unconciusness is not Punishment,why mentalize this verses?

[@ManlyServant]

@@enhancedcalm He also says this is suffering,fire,and lake of fire,Smoke,Consumed,Forever,Day and Night,Why did you mentalize verses just for your Human Feeling?

[@enhancedcalm]

@@ManlyServant Unconsciousness is not death. Why are you listing a bunch of words out of context as if that has power to form doctrine? If I get tossed into a lake of fire (which is one of the words you mention), guess what is going to happen to me? I'm going to die screaming in agony and unthinkable pain -- which are more words you mention. It is you who is mentalizing this

[@fredflintstone8048]

Normally James provides strong biblical exegesis to support his position, but does not, nor can he in the case of this topic(as far as I'm aware). I respect that James has an opinion in how these texts should be interpreted, but he doesn't have the kind of solid foundation for his position that he does let's say for example regarding Calvinism. These texts in fact can be viewed in more than one way as much as we might wish were not so. It's interesting to see James engage unfounded reasoning, the same kind of unfounded reasoning that he will accuse others of in other debate settings. I wonder if he can see it. He also presents strawmen with regard to the position of his opponent which is another pet peeve of his regarding debate opponents. It's interesting to listen to him clearly make category errors in this particular discussion which is another thing he waves flags about regarding his opponents. I think he's on the wrong end of this, and not because of how I feel about it, but in fact the way HE feels about it which is revealed in his argumentation.

[@MindTheHeart]

I agree that White provides strong biblical exegesis, at least normally, but how would you explain Matt 25:46, then? ("These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.") This seems like a key text, and I don't want to end up having to say that I wish this verse wasn't there.

[@fredflintstone8048]

Birdie Nam Good verse. Like the rest of the bible, I'm glad it's there. I don't see Matt 25:46 presenting any real problem for the person supporting annihilation. That verse and others like Mar 9:48 (Isa 66:24) can be read as reflecting the permanence of the judgment , or punishment given to the person. Even verses like Matt 13:50 may possibly be taken as the conscious reaction to the eternal nature of the punishment that awaits them when they stand in the judgment and realize what's in store, while they are conscious.. There is something deeply troubling about completely going out of existence with no chance to exist again. Taking another look at Matt 25:46 we see a dichotomy presented by Jesus. 'Eternal life' vs. Everlasting punishment. Let's also contrast the dichotomy presented by Jesus in John 3:16.. 'perish' (g622- to destroy fully...) vs. Eternal life. The proponents of conscious suffering will state that the person in hell has a form of eternal life, or existence, and it stands to reason logically if they are to consciously suffer for eternity, but I notice Jesus is contrasting life vs. destruction which can mean something different. Leading up to the time of Jesus Jews were taught, and believed that they were entitled to a resurrection, and that death (the first death) was a temporary state. Jesus used the trash dump outside Jerusalem that was constantly burning due to sulfur being added as an illustration to a kind of destruction or death (second death) that awaited certain people a destruction that had no ending. I think that all of the verses where Jesus spoke on the matter could possibly be interpreted that way. I think a problem we may have to deal with is the possible meanings of the word 'punishment'. If we MUST define the word as meaning a penal infliction that MUST be witnessed in a conscious state by the person receiving punishment, then the annihilationist is going to have troubles. If on the other hand 'punishment' can be taken to mean only penal infliction witnessed or not, the annihilationist has a possible case IMO. The death penalty is a punishment for various crimes, but it's not implied to mean an eternal suffering for the person being put to death, it's merely the loss of life on earth It's a one time final permanent punishment from which there is no return. The second death may very well be the same kind of thing. A verse that I find very interesting on this topic is Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. This verse tends to imply the lake of fire as being a final destruction for non personal entities like 'Death' and 'Hades' which will be done away with forever. In any case, for James White to simply dismiss the annihilationist view in an 'off handed' way with no real bible support to me is not good exegesis, but rather just another bias rendered by tradition which ironically is something he spends his career battling in various debates. He's a 5 point Calvinist (so am I) so I would think this would allow him to take a second look since ultimately Hell exists for those who were not chosen from the foundation of the world. I'm not saying we should use emotion, or our inherently faulty reason to draw meanings from the bible texts, but the idea that many hold without necessarily realizing it that without a very serious punishment persons would either sin excessively, or reject the gospel all together. The Calvinists see salvation coming from a different direction than this kind of fear.

[@MindTheHeart]

Thank you for your response. Meditate on this I will ... So an annihilationist Calvinist view is possible - even if Johnathan Edwards obviously was not? I have found myself more and more at home with Calvinist views in general over the past few years (thanks to James White and John Piper), but I struggle with the notion of some people being meant for an eternal hell. Meant for destruction - yes, I can see that coming as God knows everything. God gives life and can take it away. But being punished for all of eternety? Well ... To my little brains it does not compute, although I could be wrong, of course.

[@fredflintstone8048]

Birdie Nam Amen. I do find it interesting that some of our best teachers don't agree on all points. I am blessed by the teachings of Phil Johnson, but scratch my head with regard to him being 'pre trib', 'pre mil'... I don't get it. I too have been bleseed by the teachings of James White, and John Piper regarding Calvinism, but scratch my head at the notion of John Piper being a continuationist... I don't get it. I share so many views with James White including being 'amil', but completely disagree with his views on Christian Pacifism... I've learned it's one thing to be able to understand the Sovereignty of God (Calvinism), to teach it well, and another thing to be able to live it. One of my favorite saying is: "Calvisnists live like Armininans, Arminians pray like Calvinists"... We're all definitely works in progress.

[@fredflintstone8048]

JD Hall recently talked about Annihilation in this podcast. I have respect for JD but if one listens carefully he never really makes a case against it. He uses rhetorical arguments, and throws a few straw-man arguments in the process. There is also some hints of Ad Hominem. This further affirms to me that this is not a simple open and shut case because if it was, people would be quoting bible alone to make their case which JD doesn't do: www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=102516052166 Some of the early church fathers did believe in eternal conscious torment, but there were also those who did not. We also learn that early church fathers differed on a number of points which also tells me they're the same as us, and nothing much has changed. We are slaves of tradition to some degree, and while I agree that tradition cannot be discounted, we need to recognize that we've chosen a particular tradition to follow, and there are traditions on more than one side. We also don't want to assume the majority viewpoint of the past was the most accurate any more than we would assume the theology of the majority of Evangelical Christianity today is correct and biblical. Broad and spacious, narrow and cramped....

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

Excellent debate, while they failed to make the case, this is the ablest defense of annihilation I have ever heard.

[@R1K2G3]

How does this text answer my question? Please explain.

[@Bbrits1]

james is speaking too much... give the others a chance to be heard.

[@billbarrie551]

He does love preaching & his smarts get the best of him at times at times I've noticed instead of like you've said giving others a chance to talk

[@danielmalo4097]

Sounds like James is debating against Jehovah Witnesses.. They don't believe in hell either.

[@jesseandjan]

Daniel Malo 1 Timothy chap 4 v 9-11 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.)LUKE C 3 V 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God Webster's Dictionary SALVATION= The act of saving; preservation or deliverance from destruction, danger, or great calamity. 2. (Theol.) The redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him of everlasting happiness.

[@BibleLovingLutheran]

Neither do Mormons.

[@JonDoe-fh3ev]

Annhilationism believes in Hell the temporary holding, and the lake of fire which hell is thrown into. The difference is annhilationism believes those thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed eternally not eternally being tormented.

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 (1) Ps. 37 is clearly not referring to eternity. "In just a little while, the wicked will be no more." (37:10) In other words, this passage is only referring to physical/earthly death. Read Psalm 103:2 "For my days pass away like smoke, and my bones burn like a furnace." Figurative language is common in the Psalms, so it's not difficult to see what David was saying in Ps. 37. To say that everything else is figurative/poetic, except for the verses you mentioned is very inconsistent.

[@LinusWeber1997GER]

White's "God" is a monster anyways

[@misse8787]

James White really knows his stuff - great work Dr. White.

[@TSammut0219]

James white is wrong

[@wayneld30]

+Kelli Vance Really! JW is demonic so is all calvinists!! The God of the bible is not going to keep people alive forever burning and screaming! How stupid is that? The Bible says some with suffer more then others! What does that mean? Torment forever and ever is being DEAD FOREVER!! Sodom was destroyed with an ever lasting fire! It's gone! Been gone!!

[@MrMarkovka11]

wayneld30 really? The God of the Bible declares through the Apostle John “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:11‬ ‭ There is sufficient evidence in scripture that speaks of eternal torment in the lake of fire.

[@imagomonkei]

Kelli Vance he knows his Protestant Catholic tradition really well. The Bible… not so much.

[@imagomonkei]

MrMarkovka11 ever heard of hyperbole? Many other verses say quite plainly that the wicked are destroyed. Which is right?

[@PatrickWilliamsonalligatorvet]

Salvation is the Resurrection to eternal life! We put on Immortality at the time of resurrection. The Scripture doesn't teach that men and women possess an inherent immortality or an eternal soul. Mankind is a living soul, a nephesh or breather, mankind doesn't have an eternal soul. It was a holy act of God's grace that protected Adam and Eve (Mankind) from the tree of eternal life in the garden after they ate from the original forbidden fruit. Had they eaten from the tree of life, eternal hell would have resulted without remedy. Had they eaten of the tree of life they would have lived forever in their sin. That would be the equivalent of the of eternal torment or hell heresy. Praise God, for even His judgment of eternal death is merciful. Don't believe the first lie of ha satan. ''And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE: (DIE DIE) Genesis 3:2-4 (KJV) [emphasis added] It's an eternal life versus an eternal death issue, not a going to heaven eternally or going to eternal damnation. Every false religion in the world believes that first lie of ha satan! God's judgment, and fiery wrath will be horrible but sin will be remembered nomore. God's Kingdom is coming. His will, will be done on earth in the same manner as His will be being done in heaven. As the apostle Paul clearly taught: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Hallelujah! Bo Yeshua (Jesus) Bo...

[@nevbillett7554]

salvation is salvation from sin. Sin means to miss the mark or to make a mistake. God wants people to stop making mistakes: how can he get us to do that? guess we will have to learn good and evil like God who knows both and doesn't make mistakes, oh yeah that's probably why he put the knowledge of both in a tree plonked it in the garden and created an Adversary to help us get educated.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Amen brother Patrick amen

[@toregilhansen8127]

In Mark 9:44 it says: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." I Wonder what "their Worm" means? Anyone?

[@RosannaMiller]

I have heard it referred to as being the "torment" of the person.

[@divinityofblackness6330]

Isaiah 66:24 is what this is referenced to. These are corpses getting eaten.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 66 which has dead bodies being eaten totally by worms and consumed by fire. Since they are dead they are not conscious and therefore are not being tormented and since the worms are not dying and the fire is not quenched they continue to consume the bodies until they are totally gone so there's no eternal conscious torment whatsoever

[@SaintsEdified]

@mjt532 I see what you're saying. Tell me your thoughts about this: "...but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matt. 8:12) "...and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matt. 13:42) Seems like both outer darkness and furnace of fire are explaining hell; which will cause weeping and gnashing of teeth. Don't these passage make it compatible?

[@oscarcoronel3021]

33:40 Excellent James White !!!!

[@mickwhitty20009]

Uiuyyuuuuihhihuiguh

[@martin9410]

White did a really poor job and continued to lapse back into the traditional belief that has been with us since the 5th century.

[@tomb2919]

I agree with James White on many points of doctrine, including so called "Calvinism", but I disagree on his teaching of everlasting punishment. There are way too many verses in the Bible that prove the unsaved will be destroyed. Matt. 10:28 is an excellent example. I will just add one verse to ponder: 1st John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." If a murderer has no eternal life, how can he be eternally punished?

[@coryabouaf7713]

You will find out when you get to heaven that Calvinism, as well, "annihilates" God's very merciful and compassionate nature. God wants all saved and yet it doesn't happen. His predestination of the wicked is not unconditional, but based on their lifelong rejection of the implanted seed.

[@shaunigothictv1003]

Excellent point@tomb

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 Definitely, I will now respond to your private message reply. Good discussing this topic with you, brother. If anything wasn't accomplished, you at least sparked a stronger interest in me to study eschatology . :-)

[@bryanbelshaw7725]

Absolutely amazing that James White would appeal to Paul's letter to the Thesselonians about external punishment. His hermeneutic is all over the place for one who claims to be an apologist. The simple question is, to WHOM was Paul promising retribution in the 1st Century? Did Christ repay the those that were persecuting the Thesselonians in the first century as Paul promised? AUDIENCE RELEVANCE!

[@felixjones8725]

BRYAN BELSHAW Amen Brother. Biblical Preterism is something James White should look into.

[@bryanbelshaw7725]

Felix Jones Sadly he thinks it is below is self supposed intellect.

[@jerapierce]

The doctrine of eternal life for the wicked is purely a Catholic invention. It was made up to fill pews and coffers. This teaching has created more Atheists more than any other.

[@Vedioviswritingservice]

It is not a "Catholic" invention you boob. Learn some history. The concept has been around long before there was any Catholic church in any state or form. Today, you hardly hear anyone even mention it.

[@pauloftarsus8145]

That is possible, however you didnt state the source for such a statement, and beins the Catholic church is literally thousands of years old you would have to site a source older than that. I dont believe you can, you also sound angry. Therefore that is two strikes AGAINST and none FOR. As it stands its still a Catholic BS story from hell as it and Jeremiah Pierces comment stands. Although it must be pointed out, it doesnt matter who invented it, its still a lie. The problem is when Protestant Christians believe. They are supposed to be the guardians of truth, but they have allowed themselves to be duped. Therefore they cannot do their jobs. This is the real issue.

[@petewalsh764]

Paul, catholics copied it from the pagans and others. Prossies just followed like fools.

[@rodneyscales195]

If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church there wouldn’t be any Bible!

[@shaunigothictv1003]

@@pauloftarsus8145 Excellent point

[@spenceraudible2241]

My gosh... so many people in these comments are deceived! Hell is *forever and ever and ever!* to those who don't believe on the Lambs blood must pay their own sin debt and they are not spotless so they will not rise from hell but eternally pay for their crimes because they rejected such a great salvation.

[@davidford15]

"Hell is forever and ever and ever!" Do you think God will have mercy on all? Romans 11 (KJV) 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Jonah was in the belly of the fish forever. Jonah 2:6. Olam in Hebrew is Aeon in Greek, both of which mean forever. Or was it 3 days?

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Jesus died for our sins he didn't suffer eternally.

[@elizabethhartley8987]

Does anyone know who the lady is talking surly she’s not a minister

[@fraukeschmidt8364]

At roughly 42:40 Justin Brierley asks something about "Jesus going down to Hades to preach after his crucifixion" - he is referring to 1 Peter 3:18-20, where there is no mention of Hades. He preaches to the "spirits in prison who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah when an ark was being prepared" (v. 19b-20a)

[@adamcarpenter1869]

He did go down to Hades. No one is in hell yet. Hell is the lake of fire that the goats and Satan will be thrown into forever at the end of the age when Christ returns.

[@verdevalley1966]

bible says EVERLASTING TORMENT what is everlasting? WHAT IS torment? END OF SUBJECT.

[@WilliamTanksleyJr]

+maxwell williams The Bible doesn't say "everlasting torment" -- you made that up.

[@TSammut0219]

Where does it say that? Chapter and verse please. Otherwise don't add to the Bible

[@verdevalley1966]

in Rev.14:11-says -their torment ascends up forever and forever-kjv----also in mark says there worm never dies. I dont add to bible or make up anything.god Bless.

[@TSammut0219]

+maxwell williams worm never dies could mean anything. Why do you believe rev. 14:11 is referring to hell?

[@WilliamTanksleyJr]

+maxwell williams It doesn't say "their torment ascends up forever and ever." That's a misquotation that you remember because you think it helps your point.

[@bretlynn]

AND STILLLLL CHAMPION JAMES WHITE!

[@whereisyourfaith1454]

Jesus suffered and DIED for our sins, He was not eternally punished. And He said, It is finished.

[@NephilimFree]

Thew Bible teaches with countless passages that when someone dies they sleep in the earth until they are ressurected on the last day. It teaches with hundreds of passages that the place of torment for the wicked is the lake of fire and the end of those who pay for thier own sins in the extinguishment of thier spirit.

[@tyronerahme791]

James White won the debate hand down - the other two put their own opinions in their view and their own feelings on what they think God would do, which is not biblical but rather anthropocentric and theocentric.

[@petewalsh764]

No he didn't. He is an idiot.

[@LogosTheos]

pete walsh Because you disagree? Lol

[@hebrews61]

The torment is also eternal (Revelation 14:11). They have no rest, day or night, from that torment. This precludes the understanding, that the annihilation crowd rely on, that the eternal punishment is not eternal punishing. It is eternal punishing. the smolding, burning smoke of which will arise forever. The eternal torment is eternal punishing. The unsaved who hope in annihilation had better rethink (repent).

[@brotherrandy837]

_"The unsaved who hope in annihilation..."_ -- I've never met such a person. Nevertheless, your (and Mr. Whites) interpretation of Rev.14:11 precludes nothing. No, all your interpretation demonstrates is that you read in things that aren't there. For example, YOU claimed that the "smoke" in Rev. 14:11 is "smolding" (sic-smoldering), and that it's a (still) "burning smoke"; all of which is nothing more than your imagination, because that's NOT what the verse says, or even implies. _Psalms __37:20__ NKJV But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. _*_Into smoke they shall vanish away_*_._ Maybe you should try building your *blasphemous* case for Hell outside of the most symbolic book in the Bible.

[@WildheartGSD]

Brother Randy Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to *shame and everlasting contempt* . Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall *dwell with everlasting burnings* ? 2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; *but the things which are not seen are eternal* .

[@brotherrandy837]

Wolf Mother The Scriptures you quoted only prove that you read in things that aren't there. In fact, Isaiah 33:14 is actually saying just the opposite of what you contend. Yes, you cited a verse which says how people *cannot dwell* in an everlasting fire, to make a case that people *will dwell* in an everlasting fire. Need I say more? Nevertheless-- "everlasting contempt" simply means "everlasting rejection". And, 2 Cor. 4:18 has nothing, at all, to do with Hell. And, lastly, what part of *"the wages of sin is death"* don't you understand? Might I suggest that you stop getting your information about Hell from false teachers (like your Pastor, assuming you have one) who don't even do as much as teach obedience to the Ten Commandments. Although, that's probably "news to you". If so, here's another news flash for you: *The Sabbath day is not Sunday!* Exodus 20:8-11 NKJV "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. (9) Six days you shall labor and do all your work, (10) but the seventh day (*Saturday*) is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. (11) For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

[@brotherrandy837]

Wolf Mother Don't worry, your rudeness was completely overshadowed by your dazzling display of ignorance.

[@WildheartGSD]

Brother Randy Whatever :)

[@CBALLEN]

God Himself,foreknew His elect,He predestines them,calls them and justifies them all by Himself without any help from us.On this earth we are works in progress,but we have over come simply because our trust is in Christ and He did overcome the world and sin,His perfection is counted as our own before God.

[@pauljay482]

Is there hope for the sinner in death - the positively dead? @42 mins the topic of fire in hell, I've often wondered if the fire is used as refinement... the bible speaks of refinement of gold with fire! Is it conceivable that the process of hell fire is purification? I realise the angels that lost their estate are in the Abyss or pit having no knowledge or in a state of darkness and are not forgiven but I'm sure the bible teaches that their place isn't Hades or the lake of fire...

[@howsziz]

I have listened to James White off and on for years . THIS subject is the BEDROCK upon which James White builds his entire understanding of "Calvinism". EVERY Debate that EVERY Christian engages in is ALWAYS based on ones personal understanding and interpretation of ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT.Each debate might start off with one subject or another but they ALL lead right back to THIS ONE every time. It's ALWAYS about WHO is going to HEAVEN and who is going to HELL.And HOW one can ACCOMPLISH (( what ever the requirements are )) for getting into HEAVEN. One thing for certain.right or wrong,Whether He has the undisputed answer or NOT.James Whites goal is to WIN these debates .lol So YOU are going to have to READ and STUDY and work this one out for yourself.Don't trust James on this one.

[@mjt532]

@SaintsEdified It seems to me like it's literally fire, and lasts forever. The multiple references to fire though make me think it's literally a fire. But then there are mentions of 'outer darkness', which seems incompatible with a literal fire. I think there's enough ambiguity though, which I find bothersome.

[@R1K2G3]

@SaintsEdified So, if the wicked will exist, consciously, in the lake of fire (which is in fact eternal life/immortality...a gift the Bible says only the saints receive...and that only at the 2nd Advent of Christ), then you're asserting that they won't be sinning? Will the wicked also be in the same state as the saints, then; that is, the inability to fall short of doing God's prescriptive will perfectly? Please explain.

[@Hesheli27]

Time stamps pretty please ;)

[@R1K2G3]

@SaintsEdified You quote Rev.14:10-11 only partially (which I understand since we are limited by character count), but if you read the passages completely you will see that they mention, "the worshipers of the beast, and those who receive its mark" (vs.9,11). Again, symbolic language is used in Rev.14:9-11. Unless you can identify "the beast", and its "mark", I would urge against using this as one of your proof texts (again, symbolic language precludes a literalistic interpretation).

[@scottbignell]

The problem is that the Bible is inconsistent with itself on these matters. You'll find verses that seem to point toward hell as a place of eternal conscious torment, and you'll find verses that seem to point toward blunt annihilation. All of these speakers make the fundamentally flawed assumption that 'scripture' is consistent.

[@davidford15]

"the Bible is inconsistent with itself on these matters" Yes, there's been progressive revelation about life-after-death and about God's character/ nature. R.H. Charles: bring eschatology into harmony w/ Xtian theology of God tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/r-h-charles-bring-eschatology-into-harmony-w-xtian-theology-of-god/

[@shaunigothictv1003]

Excellent point Scott.

[@kimmykimko]

The Bible is never inconsistent, only man's understanding.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

As an annihilationist I have no problem reconciling all verses of scripture to that view. No problem at all. So for me the scriptures are consistent on this issue.

[@GnaReffotsirk]

The smoke the rises and the without rest is about the legacy of evil men, if you take a look at the next verses when we see the legacy of those people was rest and works that followed them as the contrast.

[@kimmykimko]

So their legacy is still ongoing...who witnesses this legacy?

[@CBALLEN]

I certainly do!

[@CBALLEN]

Wonderful guy,has a good handle on salvation and election.

[@teazy7468]

Folks wanna do what they wanna do, that's why it's convenient to say Hell is something other than what the Bible clearly states

[@1156511]

I felt he did not touch upon the verses that would've more strongly made his point; he did not take these people to task through Scripture.

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

That confession is totally consistenr with Conditional Immortality.

[@messiasfernandes2177]

To me, the view that better fits in what's revealed in the Bible is the concept of apokatastasis, that is the final reconciliation of all, but in a view that makes clear distinction between elects and non-elects.

[@Jordan-hz1wr]

One question I would have for James would be, wasn’t the sacrifice made by Christ sufficient? Why would there be a need for further punishing unless the wrath of god was not satisfied in Jesus. Genuinely curious.

[@nevbillett7554]

You got it brother: Jesus paid the penalty in full and it reconciled (made peace) God to both angels and men through the blood of his cross Colossians 1:20 . We are saved by grace alone. What white and all hell teachers are saying is that God is a liar and that he is not Sovereign. They say God is lying when he says he can not fail : Jesus came and was sent to save all men (sinners) and hell teachers say he will fail his mission and purpose. Bible disagrees with hell teachers : Jesus is God John1:1 God is love 1John 4:8 love never fails 1Corinthians 13:8, " No one is cast off by the Lord forever, though he brings grief he will show compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love" lamentations 3:31,33. False teachers say God is not Sovereign : " God wills that all men be saved" 1Timothy 2:4, but they say God can't do his will. Bible repeatedly makes plain that God can and will do his will Isaiah 46:10 , Daniel 4:35 to name but two. Hell is not found even once in original scripture , it is a translation error in English. God is not the author of contradiction and confusion, bad translations are. "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1Corinthians 15:22. " Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, especially of those who believe" 1Timothy 4:10 . God's punishments are not eternal and vindictive they are corrective , " When God's judgements are in the earth men learn righteousness" Isaiah 26:9. " I have sworn by myself, the words have left my mouth in righteousness and will not be revoked, that to Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance" Isaiah 45:23 "" Ephesians 1:11 God works all things according to the counsel of his will" AND HIS WILL IS THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED "And who can stay His hand " Daniel 4:35

[@solideogloria3962]

Jesus did not die for the entire world but his intention in His death was the elect. He laid down his life for the sheep. The sheep hear his voice and follow him. So Jesus paid for the sins of the elect. It’s a penal substitutionary sacrifice.

[@Jordan-hz1wr]

​@@solideogloria3962 God who IS love, needed to throw himself a temper tantrum and bludgeon his own kid, so that NOW he is finally able to be forgiving? Utter blasphemy. Anger is not a fruit of the spirit. Your trinity has imploded. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[@solideogloria3962]

@@Jordan-hz1wr you are sadly confused and have straw manned the position greatly. God is also just. Praying for you.

[@Jordan-hz1wr]

@@solideogloria3962 I'm praying for you as well my Protestant friend.

[@R1K2G3]

@SaintsEdified Questions the traditionalist must answer: 1) Where will the lake of fire burn, if it indeed burns throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity? 2) If the wicked will consciously burn throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity, will they be sinning (blaspheming God, for eg.)? 3) Does this not mean, then, that sin will never be eradicated? Therefore, sin is just as eternal as righteousness?

[@bijojohn2907]

God bless

[@earlysda]

Seems that James White has not read all the way thru the Bible. Near the end it says God will create a new heavens and a new earth, which precludes any more hell.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

He has read the entire Bible obviously but he just is wrong

[@R1K2G3]

What do you mean by "monergism"? Please define.

[@R1K2G3]

But how does that answer my question concerning the saints, who will receive glorified bodies, and the wicked [who, I assert, will not]?

[@ericp.8887]

That makes a lot more sense.

[@foreverinchrist1]

John 6:45 is referring to those who have been drawn by the father. John 6:44-45). As I said to you sirs, stop verse hopping. Reading a verse out of context has caused many to error.

[@josuerivera7921]

Dr. James White just lays the Law and schools these others to the point where the female stops talking after a while

[@lukegaier9490]

If it took God (Jesus) 6 hours to pay for an eternity of sinful punishment, doesn't that imply that God is not quite holy enough to have accomplished this task in two minutes or even two seconds? Why did it take Him any time at all? If His holiness is truly infinite why did it take Him so long unless His torture was not merely the wage that Jesus paid, but rather His death. Furthermore, if Jesus's torture was the punishment that He took in our place (since sinners in Hell do not die) then why did He die afterward? Why not just suffer for the 6 hours that His limited level of holiness required and then say "it is finished", and get off the cross?

[@xneutralgodx]

amen yes that is so true; but to add luke 19:10 For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost. so yes all are lost and all are being sought but will the sheep receive or reject the invitation?

[@Ravenghost123]

So why did you change name?

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 (1) "can you begin to respond to the error I pointed out in Dr. White's thinking" I'm no one to defend what White says. My only issue with your last comment was that you accused him of following tradition rather than Scripture. Just because someone disagrees with your view that's not orthodox does not mean they are following tradition. People who CLEARLY follow tradition are those like Roman Catholics. They will implicitly admit that tradition holds that same authority as Scripture.

[@zsiyw]

One verse that bothers me is in Genesis 3 where God says that it is good that man did not eat of the tree of everlasting life. Which raises the question, were we ever made to live "for ever". And if not, hell for us might actually result in us stop existing. Hell however does seem to be "for ever" for the devil and his angels. Thoughts?

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 "Now, take a look at Rev.20:9" So, verse 9 is talking about consuming, in the sense of whatever was consumed never existing anymore, but verse 10 says that the dragon and false prophet will be tormented forever -- Are you sure you want to use that interpretation? And no, it's not the same as Ps. 37. I'm still waiting for you to prove that Ps. 37 is referring to the eternity of the wicked. If you can't do so then let me know; we'll move on from there.

[@ManlyServant]

ahaha good exegesis

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 (1) "before the fire completes its work of death" I disagree with the presupposition you may have. The fact that the the Bible says that the "smoke of THEIR torment goes up forever and ever" gives us a clear description of the nature of their "eternal" punishment -- It's going to last forever, never ending. As for what I said earlier, that physical death is only one aspect of the punishment. Even the righteous experience physical death. Because of Adam's sin, we all experience...

[@davestewart3555]

The lake of fire was a physical place in Jerusalem in the valley of Hinnom or in Greek Gehenna where wicked people were stoned to death by the judgment of the law of Moses then they're bodies were thrown into the lake of fire to be incinerated from the time of king Josiah until the Babylonian captivity....Jesus used these events during the history of Israel metaphorically as "second death" not some netherworld under the ground!! that is pagan doctrine that has polluted the church through Rome. REV 21:8

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 (2) Furthermore, the context refutes your interpretation. You only quoted half a verse 38; the other half says "the future of the wicked shall be cut off." There is no such thing as a "future" in eternity, so even this demonstrates he's referring to physical death that the wicked people are going to experience on earth. Lastly, you're only implying that this is the final state of the wicked --argument from silence fallacy, since this passage does not refer to their existence in eternity

[@JavierLopez-iy8nz]

Rev 14:10. “Tormented in presence of angels and Lamb.” Period. “Then the smoke of their torment rises forever.”Just because they are tormented in their presence doesn’t mean they stood there watching forever. If the torment started in their presence and then they left, in their presence would still apply.

[@cryptojihadi265]

That's clearly talking about the judgment on the people on earth at that time. It's also the same language used to describe the destruction of Babylon, that the smoke of its torment rises forever and ever. First, it's never, forever and ever. It's always ages and ages which may or may not mean eternity. But in this case it clearly isn't for all eternity as it's the fate of a city and worshippers of the beast on the earth. So, unless you want to believe he recreates Babylon in the New Heaven and Earth, just so it's smoke can continue to rise for all eternity, it's clear, it's a very figurative way of describing the current age judgment of the wicked and the Babylonian world system. NOT their final judgment in the lake of fire which takes place at the end of Revelations. God establishes His 1000-year millennial rule, after these judgments on the wicked on the earth. Then comes the second global rebellion which is when God wipes them out again, then second resurrection of the wicked takes place and they are judged along with Satan, death and hades that are all thrown into the lake of fire. ONLY regarding Satan, the Beast and the False prophet does it say they are tormented in the lake of fire forever and ever. To death, hades and the wicked it says it's the second death. Now IF the fate of the wicked were to actually exist forever in a fiery torment, NOW would have been a great time to just plainly state it. But it doesn't, because that is not their fate. Then a new heaven and earth are created. So, unless you want to believe the new heaven and earth bring back Babylon so it can continue to smoke forever and ever, it's clear that is not referring to people or a city actually being tormented forever and ever. Nor does it even say they are tormented forever and ever just the smoke of their torment rises forever. Over and over, God makes it clear, to Him ALONE belongs immortality, the reward of the righteous is that they get to put on immortality when Christ returns, and it specifically states that. It never states that for the wicked. It would be cruel to do so. Note the ONLY reason God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden is so they WOULDN'T eat from the Tree of Life and Live forever in their fallen state. The Bible also states every way possible to describe the end of the wicked. They are destroyed, burned up, consumed, perish, not more, etc. In NO sane interpretation of those words would you get the idea that they all actually mean the exact opposite: "live forever", but just in a horrible place.

[@SaintsEdified]

@R1K2G3 (2) Clearly this can be a reference to Rev. 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Does the Bible explain this punishment? "and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt. 13:42,50) "will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever..." (Rev.14:10-11)

[@bombingraid1330]

Then there are the KZbin NDE testimonies of demons, never ending torment and those burning in hell vs those of a non judgemental life review by the "light," happiness and no-hell or punishment.

[@xneutralgodx]

you said man cannot understand spiritual things correct? but what about fleshy things

[@GnaReffotsirk]

Because in Revelations the sword from His mouth destroys those who follow the beast and took his mark.

[@R1K2G3]

@SaintsEdified It is truly a shame that you cannot read Ps.37 for what it says. Obviously, I couldn't quote the entirety of it. It is clearly speaking of the Perseverance of the Saints (both in this life, and eternally); as opposed to the fate of the wicked (both in this life, and eternally).

[@1156511]

I'm busy looking for employment - besides being busy with other things - when I get time, I will respond.

[@SaintsEdified]

@mjt532 You don't think the doctrine of hell is clear in Scripture?

[@Lysimachus78]

Brian McLean, James White is a great theological mind, no doubt. He holds closely to Reformation teachings against Papal doctrine, and for this he is to be respected. However, he has failed to carry on where the Reformation was not able to complete, in such areas as: 1) Understanding that the Sabbath commandment remains, and is intrinsically tied to the everlasting Covenant. 2) Not letting go of the Papal doctrine of Eternal Torment. 3) Not letting go of the Augustinian/Calvinistic heresy.

[@R1K2G3]

James White's argument that "a sin against the infinite God requires and infinite punishing", sounds good, but is thoroughly unbiblical. Since, "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23), then that is exactly what the reprobate will get...death ("second death", as well). I appreciate Dr. White's ministry (as a Sabbatarian Reformed Baptist, myself), but on this issue, he is following his traditions, rather than Scripture. Soli Deo Gloria!

[@CBALLEN]

Both will receive a resurrection and resurrection always means bodily,unless you believe Jesus was only resurrected as a spirit or Lazarus a ghost?

[@R1K2G3]

You seem to missing the point of my rebuttal to the comment given by "jason Worthingon". Please read again.

[@Ken-do4oy]

There is no word in the Greek or Hebrew Manuscripts that means "eternity, eternal, forever and everlasting. " The Greek word that is used is "aion" and it's Hebrew counterpart "olam" which is an eon which has a beginning and an end. Heb 1:1 tells us that God created the "aions" or eons (plural). Now use eternities or everlastings if you insist that "aions" means eternities. Just how many eternities or forevers are there? See how convoluted it becomes when we tamper with God's word.

[@BibleLovingLutheran]

Why are those that believe that it’s not eternal want to believe such? Are they scared?

[@bryanbelshaw7725]

There's not one verse in Scripture that affirms there is life outside of Christ. To be eternally tormented you must have some sort of life. Yes there is condemnation outside of Christ but the nature of that condemnation is to be without Christ. James White knows that the term 'Hell' should not be there in biblical translation, as this term means different things in both the Old and New Testament. (i.e Sheol/ Hades/Gehenna).

[@barrylackey3395]

Yes God is Sovereign enough to give everyone a choice. Amen brother!

[@kimmykimko]

Did Jacob choose his destiny?

[@DennisRegling]

Revelation does not discuss the conditions in hell. It says hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire. 7:09