KMS Graf Spee - Guide 075 (Extended)

The KMS Graf Spee, a Deutschland class heavy cruiser of the Kriegsmarine is today's subject.
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Specials:
-Fire Control Systems
-Protected Cruisers
-Scout Cruisers
-Naval Artillery
-Tirpitz (damage history)
-Treaty Battleship comparison

[@johnmonkus4600]

As a youngster, during the fifties in Heidelberg, Germany, the widow of Langsdorff and her daughter lived upstairs in our apartment building. My parents and I occasionally Kaffe Klatched with them. She had a detailed wooden model of the Graf Spee, and her husband's beautifully carved wooden sea chest, complete with the eagle and swastika intact, although the swastika is illegal in Germany.

[@francisbacon9728]

That's amazing! This should be seen by more people, I hope.

[@MrHuggaga]

Swastika is only illegal if you openly show it it seems. You can have Hakenkreuz-flags and wear Nazi-Symbols in private all day long at home if you wanted (my uncle is an unfortunate case of Neo-Nazism who has Hakenkreuzbinde and Reichskriegsflagge in his home-office-room.. haven't ever visited them again once we found out.. O.O)

[@barrydysert2974]

Thank you for sharing. 🖖

[@fnnsvnssn2164]

@@MrHuggaga Yea it isn't illegal. My ex-girlfriend was a neo-nazi, so were the other members of her close family, they had a massive statue of the eagle on top of the swastika at the end of their entrance hallway. Was quite suprised when I first went to her house, but I didn't really mind as they always treated me with respect.

[@hrafnofthule5962]

@@fnnsvnssn2164 was this in East Germany?

[@jasoncabral3831]

When the graf spee was salvaged, her belt armor was sold to an Argentine gun maker, who used the steel to make license built copies of the US Colt 1911.

[@adenkyramud5005]

Didn't forgotten weapons make a video about these? Long time ago I think... Like 3 or 4 years

[@Ivan_I99999]

The story goes that a Uruguayan company, which was a front for the British, salvaged the ship because its gunnery was suspiciously good and the British wanted to get their hands on the German optics and radar. Later on, the British ordered a large number of Ballester Molina pistols from the Argentinians and they paid partially with steel as Argentina had limited steel supplies and their military was ordering small arms too. It may have been the same steel as was salvaged but someone (who’s name I can’t recall) acquired a Molina slide and had it tested. The metallurgy wasn’t the same as German armor. That being said, it could’ve been made from non-armor steel but no one really knows. Seeing as its armor grade steel, the British may very well thought it too valuable and kept it, maybe for their own ships.

[@tomhalla426]

The purported guns were Ballester Molinas, more of a compromise between the Spanish Star and a Colt 1911. The guns were made to fill a British SOE order,and the Brits supplied the steel. However, tests on Ballester Molinas in the relevant serial number range showed no signs of having been German armor.

[@rabidbigdog]

I did not know this. What a disgrace. Replica guns for all the Nazi fans.

[@bryanleroytrigg8066]

Wow😮

[@maddox0110]

I do like the human voice better than the robotic voice.

[@frankmiller95]

Unfortunately, that IS a human voice. At beginning it's just so dry that it seems like a robot. Later on, it get's better. There's no video, so it's more like an academic lecture with photos. Once that is understood and accepted, it's not bad.

[@dj7291993]

P Joubert His first videos had a robotic voice (the one that does the intro) doing the entire video, as opposed to this one where he does the video lecture part using his own voice.

[@ontuonssmetuona8016]

same

[@AncientCreature-i2o]

​@@frankmiller95No lol it isnt

[@edwardcnnell2853]

The Graf Spee was a beautiful ship. An clean lined eloquent design.

[@Gunners_Mate_Guns]

I have personally seen the Graf Spee. I saw it when my ship, the USS Richard E. Byrd, went on a UNITAS (collaborative cruise with US Navy and several South American navies) cruise in 1989. As we were pulling into Montevideo harbor, we could see the tops of some smokestacks and the mast, no more than 50 yards off of to our starboard. At first, most of us standing there on the fantail had no idea what ship's wreckage we were seeing, until our department head said "Yep, that's the Graf Spee, scuttled by its German captain in WWII." What a cool thing to see firsthand.

[@Birdy890]

lucky bugger

[@s.31.l50]

That’s so cool

[@ThePrader]

I also went on a UNITAS cruise, 1982, as young LT on the Flag's staff. We could see parts of the superstructure that hadn't yet been salvaged. I wonder if anything is left now?

[@samstewart4807]

ok so in 1989 the ship was still visible. DOES ANYONE kow when it rolled over?

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

@@samstewart4807 The wreck didn't roll over. The sea at that point is simply not deep enough. Over the years, the wreck gradually settled, although some sections had been removed by salvors anyway. I doubt anyone in the area was sufficiently interested to take much notice.

[@alterain691]

My fathers cousin was a Royal Marine who served in HMS Ajax 1938-1940 he started the Battle of the River Plate on AA guns (which were not used in the battle) shortly after the start of the battle a Royal Marine in X turret could not carry on so he was ordered to replace him. When the 11 Inch shell penetrated below X turret into and out of the shell handling room where, I think all were killed, the hatch on the floor of X Turret to the shell handing room blew upwards decapitating one Royal Marine and wounding the others in the turret including my fathers cousin who was hit by shrapnel in the leg. Toward the end of the battle an 11 inch shell hit the rear mast of HMS Ajax severing it, the Royal Marine that my fathers cousin had replaced in X turret was killed on the same AA gun station where my fathers cousin was at the start of the battle. After HMS Ajax returned to the UK he left the ship to join 1st (101) RM Battalion eventually being one of the first volunteers for A (40) Royal Marine Commando. He undertook beach assaults on Dieppe in France, and Sicily (The largest D day landing of WW2), Porto san Venere and Termoli in Italy. He survived the war and died in 1985.

[@jnstonbely5215]

Alterain Thank you for sharing a great recounting of a great Man ; your Father, and a great Battle.

[@alivewithpassion]

Hero.

[@robertewing3114]

The severed mast fell in true Trafalgar style, said witnesses. A defining moment. Or deafening moment, if you were directly under it.

[@alterain691]

​@Jay Schnitzler Thank you. Kapitän zur See Hans Wilhelm Langsdorff saved many lives on both sides by choosing to scuttle the Panzerschiff Admiral Graf Spee, he was a brave and honourable person. Whilst very few of the men on any of the ships involved in the battle German or Commonwealth could be called extremists, unfortunately extremists had gained political power and thus it led to another World War with mass killing. This still today is a warning for all of us, we still need to remain ever vigilant and be personally responsible stand up to and prevent extremists of any type in our own countries from gaining power.

[@davidknight2104]

We thank him for his courage 🙏🏻

[@datgood121]

i find this kinda funny how for the movie Achilles was played by Achilles and Cumberland as Cumberland. Really it was such a sight to see ww2 era cruisers steaming together in blu ray with color.

[@glenchapman3899]

And the running fun battle was flimed in real time as well. Help give people an understanding of what all gun naval combat of the time was like

[@silincer5186]

Graf Spee played by USS Salem(Des Moines Class)

[@SladesShitboxGarage]

The Lutzow was sunk as a target the year the movie was made.

[@SladesShitboxGarage]

Russ Gallagher Neither, the Lutzow was Graf Spee’s sister ship.

[@arlanda98]

@Russ Gallagher I believe it's HMS Jamaica, one of the hero of North Cape

[@robertroud327]

One of my Favorite ships , love her looks and armament.

[@rpm1796]

Aye...building more, upgraded 32kt, 11'' Deutschlands' might have been a better way to go...

[@petergregory5286]

My father was an Electrical Artificer (EA) on Ajax and I was brought up with the account of this battle. One point he always made was that some of the crews asked to attend the funeral of the Graf Spee’s crew. The request was of course turned down but did show that at that point of the war there was still a bond between sailors whichever side they were on.

[@benwilson6145]

The crew of the Graph Spee were taken back to Germany in 1946 by the British ship Highland Monarch, they were escorted by HMNZS Achilles.

[@markosteinberger]

And this honourful thinking is what is being remembered. It shows a sense for humanity which tends to be rare in such times.

[@rollosnook]

Would love to see something on HMS Sikh - it attacked the Bismark and also an Italian battleship. It sank two cruisers, a submarine, it screened Russian and Malta convoys, took part in commando raids. There aren't many DD who routinely attacked much larger ships...

[@daCATgraphics]

I too would love to know more of this story

[@rollosnook]

@@daCATgraphics The wiki page on HMS Sikh is very disappointing. The officers were interrogated by a famous Italian actor. The towline from HMS Zulu was hit by a shell. Sikh took nearly 90 hits from 88mm and larger calibre guns, prepared in advance of the "Secret" operation. Operation Agreement also involved a land attack by Jewish Commandos and SAS, immortilized by George Peppard in "Tobruk", not to be confused with Richard Burton's "Raid on Rommel", practically the same script. The wiki page claims an Italian aircraft hit HMS Sikh, I've never seen any reference to that on any naval forum myself. It's hugely disappointing. My father's uncle was one of the lucky survivors. Many commandos were killed when "B" magazine took a hit. Some of the crew were kept in Italy and then moved to other camps, while my dad's uncle was lucky again, being repatriated in 1943, in time to serve on HMS Ashanti in the operations west of the D-Day beaches in 1944, then demobilized in 1945, after joining the year HMS Sikh was laid down I believe.

[@daCATgraphics]

@UCA7eKcfHuugU1mPr0z-60Kw Fascinating. I have been binge watching this channel for the past couple of weeks. Sounds like HMS Sikh would be an excellent listen. Cheers

[@rollosnook]

@@daCATgraphics I think there are already at least two videos about the Tribal Class Destroyers. This Channel is incredible, I agree. I like Mark Felton, but Drachinifel's ascerbic wit and humour is the icing on the cake. If you're going to talk about navies, a British voice adds that gravitas and authority! Did you know the USA destroyed more Royal Navy ships than any other country in history, through a treaty. Pre WW1 shipping figures were truly even more staggering! Hopefully the number of Drachinifel videos will exceed the number of naval vessels in the world one day!

[@Nostrildomus]

It's the nature of your program that intrigues me knowing it's as close to truth obtainable today . Thanks

[@OsborneCox.69.420]

agreed. unfortunately, i'm almost certain his channel will eventually be banned as a result of overzealous SJW's reporting his content for not adhering to their revisionist version of historical events. the war on facts is becoming more and more brazen every day. I fear the same is true for Mark Felton's channel, too ...

[@frasermcburney270]

My story of the Graf Spee is. In 1939 my uncle and some of his friends raided the German navy club in Halifax Nova Scotia one of the prizes he took was a line drawing of The Graf Spee in 1936 by lieutenant Hans Langsdorff. When it made a courtesy to Halifax Langsdoff latter became the captain on the ship. As far as know the drawing was taken by my cousin who has since passed away he had 2 sons but I have lost contact with them. That drawing would be worth a mint if it is still around. I'm 71 years old.

[@scottyfox6376]

Thank you for that interesting & humourous story.

[@pierowmania2775]

I used to have the blueprints for the Destroyer Escort USS Williams. My grandfather was her captain during WWII. Alas, they were ruined when my parents basement flooded in 1992.

[@robertmatch6550]

God bless Halifax! From a former Bostonian.

[@Fenris86]

Watching the movie "Battle of the River Plate" with my grandpa is what started my fascination with warships.

[@joylunn3445]

@Richard J Roberts "Poor little Africa Shell".

[@simony2801]

Should have brought your cap.

[@danmartin5178]

The Graf Spee has become famous in spite of (or because of) her tragic end, when in fact her sister, the Admiral Scheer, performed one of the most successful naval campaigns in history, in the Atlantic and the Indian oceans, in October 1940-April 1941 (she arrived back in Germany on the first day of April, the day she turned 8 years, for she was launched on 1 April 1933). I recommend the book 'Pocket Battleship', written by her skipper, Kapitän zur See Theodor Krancke, and H.J. Brennecke, telling the whole story. Published for the first time in 1954. Krancke sank or captured some 150.000 tons of Allied shipping and was a good man: good with his officers and men, good with his enemies, good with his prisoners, good with himself. Nothing to do with the stereotyped wicked and coward Nazi shown in so many cheap movies nowadays.

[@wolftamer5463]

It might sound like a stereotype, but there were quite a few good captains in the Kriegsmarine. Men who valued the lives of their crew and their opponents.

[@TEHSTONEDPUMPKIN]

"Its just a prank bro!" - British Admiralty, 1939

[@leeoldershaw956]

There is a town in Ontario, Canada named "Ajax" after the ship. Some of it's streets are named after the UK sailors killed in the battle. One is also called "Langsdorff Drive".

[@paulstewart6293]

On the island of skye there is cemetery with graves of people who washed up on the beach.

[@dakotaprojectify]

They renamed it croker street due to complaints about it being named after Langsdorff

[@leeoldershaw956]

@@dakotaprojectify When did that happen because I thought I checked Google maps just before I made the post? I didn't see a problem as all accounts portrayed Langsdorff as an honorable man who wasn't a Nazi.

[@leeoldershaw956]

@@dakotaprojectify I'm an 84 year old from the US who vividly remembers WWII. The battle against the Graf Spee was a famous naval battle narrowly won by the British Empire. Langsdorff was portrayed as not creating any casualties among the crews of the merchant ships that he sank. He scuttled the ship against orders to save the lives of his crew and probably many Brits. As I recall Ajax produced munitions during WWII and around the end named the streets. Langsdorff Drive was named after an honorable adversary and those that lived on it were part of history. Now they're not. Sad revisionism.

[@leeoldershaw956]

@@dakotaprojectify I found the news report about the street name change in Aug. 2020. I thought Council Woman Dies argument to keep the name compelling.

[@daria_morgandorffer5768]

Me and my husband play world of warships on ps4 and this is one of my favorites! I bought it as a Christmas present for myself and really enjoy it. I’m now working on getting the Hipper but I feel like it won’t be as good for some reason. Anywho I love your channel! It helps me research to kick hubs butt!

[@nightlightabcd]

If one can get the info, which it seems that you can and do, there are countless numbers of war ships, merchant ships and submarines of note that could be reviewed! Keep up the good work!

[@poky1958]

This is one of my favorite Navy stories, and i think the Graf Spee was a great ship.

[@spqrnkvd]

There was a fifth warship involved in the River Plate battle. It was the cruiser ROU URUGUAY., from the uruguayan Navy. His captain was ordered by the uruguayan Navy to intercept and defend the uruguayan territorial waters. It will be a great history for your channel. to tell how she managed to accomplish their mission.

[@ur2c8]

There is an error in this video. The Altmark was not captured but returned to Germany after running aground during the Altmark incident. She was renamed Uckermark and blew up in Yokohama, Japan in November 1942.

[@johnallen7807]

Cossack did in fact board and capture her after a brief fire fight but she was released because she was in Norwegian waters.

[@LiveErrors]

Beautifull ship really

[@TallshrewFishing]

Wolves hunting a tiger: patience is the order of the day.

[@Diego-zz1df]

Great video! I actually stumbled upon the ship's rangefinder in Montevideo. It is quite an interesting thing to see. My dad, a WWII history enthusiast, was really exited to find it. We didn't even know it had been recovered! As a request, please add the Peresvet class to the list, and a special vid on Pobeda and Peresvet and their actions during the Russo Japanese War. Thanks.

[@Drachinifel]

Diego Salvati will do

[@andrewnoonan4044]

One of the secondary guns has also been recovered.

[@FutureCanadaBlue]

5:26: "stopped an unidentified Dutch steamer..." Map: "Approached Dutch "Mapia"..."

[@lorddashdonalddappington2653]

In this video Drach can't decide how he wants to pronounce "Ajax"

[@pikgaming5955]

I think their most underrated and almost never mentioned feature was their unbelievable range.

[@michaeljhogantoronto]

Back in the early 90's I was touring around Ireland staying in Bed and Breakfasts and the BnB in Tralee we were staying in had a pipe break in the ceiling of our room which flooded our room. When we retuned there from our concert they apologized and said they had arranged accommodation at another BnB just outside of town. (Bear with me this has to do with the Graf Spee). In the middle of the night we followed the instructions and the road turned into a dirt path and just when we thought we were lost we found the place and stayed there for the night. In the morning we woke up, had breakfast and we noticed the other guests there were mostly German. I thought nothing of it. As we were rushing to leave to pick up our laundered clothes at the door I saw a bell on the wall and underneath it was a sign saying it was the ship Bell of the Graf Spee. I could kick myself for not going back and asking the host if it was real but my party was rushing me and I was the driver. Since I didn't make the reservation I don't know the name of the place and have no idea where it is now except outside of Tralee near the water. Could it have been authentic?

[@venividivicta]

Waiting for this one. Cheers Mate. Dope vidz.

[@DOLRED]

The British movie on this action (Two titles depending upon where it was played). Pursuit of the Graf Spee. The Battle of the River Plate. A US warship played the Graf Spee (The Salem). Two of the British warships used in the movie were the actual warships involved. The Cumberland by then had been stripped of her turrets.

[@robertminor1056]

Only the Achilles as the Ajax had been broken up for scrap in late 1949 and the heavy cruiser Exeter had been sunk by the Japanes in the Battle of Sunda Strait on March 1, 1942, just 5 years to the day before I was born. That left just the Achilles which at the time the movie was made had been sold to India and renamed the Delhi.

[@harisminfaris]

Utmost respect to Kapitän z. See Hans Langsdorff. His outstanding qualities as a naval captain, a brave soldier and fine seaman as well as a gentleman and a real man with a backbone and principles of the value of human life are demonstrated perfectly in all his actions. His care for his own crew as well as his care for the British prisoners under his responsibility are witness. I don’t know of any allied officer who demonstrated only nearly as much human qualities as this brave and honorable man did!

[@doombringer3498]

I admire this man. But his suicide (beside its german officer's code of honor roots) was a sad mistake. Why to loose battle-capable ship by self-sinking when she was capable to fight? Why to die by own hand when death in a battle is already in sight? He has an order, but until ship is in foreign waters, he's the only fuhrer, master and commander on-board. In his place it was a better choice, imo.

[@williamfankboner4206]

@@doombringer3498 My thoughts exactly. Go down fighting a slug match with the Royal Navy (which by the way he was instructed NOT to to engage in the first place). And why did he put into a neutral port. He seems to have had no knowledge of geography. Very puzzling. A humane captain but not a very smart one.

[@doombringer3498]

@@williamfankboner4206 again, german navy code of honor was very strict and suffered not the interpretatoins of direct order of high command. Plus they was diffamated by fake radiobroadcasts spoken of battleship group. I suggest he decided to die for his men can live. But it's kinda too simple choice and too knightly move for me to comprehend.

[@lst141]

harisminfaris Probably not, there are accounts that many seamen of Bismarck were left in the sea, when the British abandoned the rescue of survivors. Some WC order it appears And remember the Laconia incident... after that no more survivors picked by UBoots

[@callumroberts1411]

@@lst141 They abandoned the rescue because there were reports of U-Boats in the area.

[@SEPK09]

Shame about Langsdorff, seemed like a proper good captain.

[@johndonovan5752]

His grave, www.findagrave.com/memorial/6924581/hans-wilhelm-langsdorff

[@Pyeknu]

As for another ship for you to review, try the Tribal-class destroyer HMCS Haida, which is the last of her class still in existence and is now a memorial in Hamilton, Ontario.

[@Drachinifel]

Already done, albeit in the older robo-voice :)

[@smooth_sundaes5172]

Credit to the huge effort and sacrifice to take this beast out of action. Later we wouldn't have the French fleet of course and the Atlantic convoys would commit much of the Royal Navy. The Admiral Scheer managed to get to the end of the war and one can only imagine the problems the Graf Spee would have caused unchecked. Thanks for posting the video!

[@BrianSmith-ow9gy]

Surprised to hear references to "the" HMS Exeter; usually Royal Naval ships are simply HMS Whatever. To spell it out in full, adding a "the" reads "the her majesty's ship" which is incorrect English. "The" USS Whatever is correct as that reads "the United States Ship", which is correct English. "The Exeter" or "The Ajax" would be correct as is "the Enterprise" or "this is the USS Enterprise".

[@BigLisaFan]

Glad someone else raised this. Saved me writing it.

[@Snowdog2711]

drives me nuts...

[@atpyro7920]

Usually "the" in front of a warship's name will refer to the most famous iteration of that ship (for example, "the" USS Enterprise, CV-06, as opposed to USS Enterprise, CVN-65.) Warships tend to recycle names a lot, so putting "the" in front acts as a shorthand.

[@michaelnaisbitt1639]

Dry good clip of a famous ship. and her captain

[@neojso]

Salute to the german captain ✋😐

[@leifkhas7425]

Incredible Story! Some fine men both British and German! Most Kriegsmarine Officers and Men were normal German Patriots, not Nazis.

[@richardsleep2045]

A tragedy for many decent guys, including Langsdorff of course. A real Boy's Own Epic Yarn well told, thanks.

[@davidabney7700]

Admiral Harwood brilliantly deployed his 3-ship cruiser force to divide the fire of the big gun German armored cruiser Graf Spee. Harwood took the two light cruisers (6" guns) in one direction and sent the heavy cruiser HMS Exeter (8" guns) to attack from another direction. Effectively dividing the fire of the German's six-11" guns along with her 5.9" secondary guns. Graf Spee beat up Exeter with her big guns to the point of near destruction, but at the same time she (Graf Spee) was smothered in six-inch fire from the Brit light cruisers HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles coming from another direction. If not for the aggressive/brave action of the two light cruisers, the Exeter would have been lost. A similar incident in WW! happened in the opening days of the war in the Mediterranean Sea, A British 4-ship armored cruiser squadron, along with a handful of destroyers were situated in a position to intercept/destroy a German Battlecruiser Goeben and a light cruiser escort Breslau. Admiral Troubridge, cruiser force CO, elected not to confront/battle Goeben because of the ten 11-inch big guns of Goeben. He (Troubridge) didn't think he could get under Goeben's guns with his "4" armored cruisers that were armed to the teeth with 9.2-inch guns, 7.5 inch guns, and so many 6-inch guns you couldn't count em. Troubridge made the wrong decision, but he was no coward! He was court marshalled and found innocent of dereliction of duty, and that was right! Twenty plus years later, Harwood would show what divided fire could do at River Plate. History abounds!

[@FenderBassMustang]

A similar situation in some ways, but there was one big difference. Harwood's ships were all faster than Graf Spee and could control the range, and Langsdorff knew that. He had no hope of running away, so he had to fight and Harwood was willing to take him on. Troubridge's ships were all slower than Goeben and he had no hope of catching her or closing the range. Goeben could have just stood off outside the range of the smaller British cruiser's 9.2-inch guns and pounded them with her larger 11-inch guns while remaining untouched. Troubridge hoped to intercept Goeben at night so he could take her by surprise at close range with some chance of success, but realized he was too slow to do that, so called off the engagement. Goeben never even knew Troubridge's force was around. It was the correct decision, but Churchill and the Admiralty never forgave Troubridge even though he was acquited in the court martial.

[@MrLemonbaby]

Once again a great report. But more so in that you pulled together everything I've read and more into a narrative that gave perspective. As I've often thought a man who knows what he is talking about can be highly informative and brief. Very well done. I have a book, purchased many years ago "The Drama of the Graf Spee and the Battle of the Plate: A Documentary Anthology: 1914-1964". It is signed by the captains of each of the British ships. I see that we have some deluded "citizens of the world", fools all, beginning with the PinkOld thread. The lot of you, try reading... The German War by Stargardt. He went into the archives and read the letters exchanged between soldiers and their families. Looked at the pictures they sent home. -Who did the everyday murdering--just about everybody. -What was going down in Germany and on the fronts was a open secret at home and discussed widely by the German population. Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. by Browning. This battalion was made up of ordinary citizens called up for service at the beginning of the war. -They were ordered to villages, rounded up the inhabitants and murdered them. -A small minority of the battalion simply refused to do so. What happened to them. Why nothing at all.

[@ostlandr]

The Kriegsmarine should have foregone the big ships and just kept on cranking out Panzerschiffe as fast as the yards could build them. Using Bismarck and Tirpitz for commerce raiding was ludicrous.

[@lycossurfer8851]

If anyone is interested, the August 2019 issue of Naval History has an article of the Graf Spee and the battle she fought.

[@billyponsonby]

German navy made a habit of scuttling

[@sukf3648]

Hi Drachnifel, I like your channel very much. Could you please make a video about Admiral Scheer (the ship). In my opinion it is one of the most interesting ships of WW2, because it was the only German capital ship that managed to get home after a very successful raiding "Feindfahrt". Ulli from Germany

[@joelmontgomery4837]

Take a look at the H class battleships of germany planned after bismarck.

[@marcusaureliusantoninusaug2161]

I think the Graf Spee did well for beeing outnumbered 3:1. Yes, she had big guns, but she wasn't a big ship, no bigger than the British Cruisers. So to hold your own against three ships your size is a good job in my book.

[@sergarlantyrell7847]

She displaced as much as Ajax and Achillies (7,000 tons standard each, vs 14,000 tons standard) put together (bearing in mind Exeter was very small for a heavy cruiser and only slightly larger than either of the others at 9,000 tons). She also had heavier broadside than the 3 British ships put together 1,800 kg vs 1,500 kg, and that's not even including her 5.9" secondaries that were practically as big as the main 6" guns on the leanders. She may be about the same length as the British ships but she isn't in the same league in terms of actual size and power.

[@kenpage3321]

Hi Drachinifel. I checked Google and I don’t think you did the hero of the Falklands and Dardanelles veteran Canopus yet. Surely a story worth telling?

[@IndianaDel1]

"Ajax" is pronounced like the cleaning product, not the Dutch club. My Father's uncle served aboard HMS Ajax, during the battle

[@leeboy26]

@@BLRSharpLight Ajax is pronounced 'Ayas' if referring to the Greek warrior. Hardly an erroneous English pronunciation as it is pronounced differently in many languages. Don't let that get in the way of your little rant though.

[@sugarnads]

Lee its only pronounced thus when rendered 'aias' per the standard transliteration from greek to english.

[@Leon_der_Luftige]

Akula971 Well then the Royal Navy is a bunch of morons if they can't even pronounce their own ships.

[@bradster1708]

To all those who are criticising mispronunciation of words, this is usually an indication that the person in question has learned these words by reading rather than hearing them. It is not an indication of stupidity. To those who are merely correcting in good faith, please carry on.

[@briantitchener4829]

@@Leon_der_Luftige They pronounce them the way they like. Nothing moronic about it.

[@tonyashpitel9281]

I thoroughly enjoy Drach's videos a fascinating journey back through the books I read all those years ago brought to life through his videos, contemporary stills, and his excellent narrative. However, it is NEVER 'the HMS' , always just 'HMS' (His - or her - Majesty's Ship). A small point? Not to ex-RN personnel.

[@jaybee9269]

I shouldn’t rag on you Drach, but who was George the Fifth the Sixth? He was in Monty Python, right?😬🤣 Thanks for what you do!

[@bennylofgren3208]

George the five sixths. He was a part-time king. 🙂

[@jaybee9269]

Benny Löfgren >> That’s quite funny. You win the Internet for today!

[@bullettube9863]

I've always said there were two reasons the Allies won the war: Germany had Hitler and the allies had Churchill and Roosevelt, who listened to their experts. Germany should have used the 48,000 tons of three Graf Spees to build four Hipper class heavy cruisers. With a 32 knot speed and 8-8in guns, and traveling in pairs, they would have been far more dangerous and harder to find and sink. But Hitler, like all dictators; loved his big ships and always wanted Germany to build the biggest of everything, regardless of cost or practicality.

[@dovetonsturdee7033]

The three Deutchlands were either already launched or at least half built before Hitler came to power in January, 1933. He inherited them, in effect.

[@bullettube9863]

@@dovetonsturdee7033 You're right about the pocket battleships, but Hitler did push for bigger ships while Chancellor before he took over as dictator.

[@snowyren5135]

Could have been worth mentioning the legality of the capture of the Altmark and its effect on relations with Norway.

[@nehcrum]

Yeah, kinda reacted to that too. The Altmark incident is pretty dang important since it was what made the germans invade Norway (and Denmark as a step on the way) as they saw that the British didn't respect norwegian neutrality and that the norwegians lacked the military power to enforce that neutrality. The germans invaded Norway to protect it from british aggression. And they were completely correct in doing so, since the british were about to invade Norway to protect it from german aggression, just that the germans beat them to the punch. They still happily invaded and occupied Iceland though, and more or less invaded but refused to occupy the Faroe Islands since that would make them responsible for the civilians on the islands.

[@bradster1708]

Nehcrum, what a magnificent observation that Germany invaded Norway to “protect” it from “British aggression”. I have no doubt you have similar stories as to why Germany invaded Poland, France, Holland, Belgium, Russia etc. etc. If only Britain had not oppressed Nazi Germany by daring to fight back. Come on mate, drop the delusions.

[@benwilson6145]

The Altmark was designed and built for the Kriegsmarine along with three sister vessels, one of which ended up in the USN. The Ship was armed. The Norwegians should not have allowed a Kriegsmarine ship into there territorial waters.

[@GMK31337]

Honorable men on both sides. The suicide was a waste. Langsdorff saved his crew, had no chance of getting home and no ammunition to fight.

[@richardnewcombe9449]

These Pocket Battleships would have all been sunk if they were at sea in the Atlantic from 1940 . The King George V class were faster at 28 knots plus.

[@carterjackson8033]

By 1940 the best way to deal with a cruiser or battleship was with an aircraft carrier.

[@FenderBassMustang]

The Admiral Graf Spee's sister ship Admiral Scheer had a very successful Atlantic and Indian Ocean raiding cruise in early 1941. But after the loss of Bismarck and sinking of German tankers and supply ships by mid 1941, it was no longer possible for large surface raiders to make Atlantic cruises. The German armed merchant cruisers were still successful as late as 1943, but they were operating mainly in the Indian Ocean and Pacific.

[@AWPtical800]

Uruguay is apparently going to melt down the Graf Spee's eagle to recast it as a "dove of peace."

[@G777GUN]

After 1:11 - 605mm guns? I am sure you mean 105mm guns but we all make mistakes. Great videos btw.

[@Drachinifel]

I think I spoke too fast, I was saying 'six 105mm guns'. :p

[@willwilson5770]

I believe he ment to say "six, hundred and five (105):

[@615mkys]

He did say six hundred and five mm guns- you are being fussy, the word one is missing. But , obviously no secondary gun calibre is going to bigger than the primary ! I heard 105mm !!!

[@aristosachaion_]

Arguably the Emden's spiritual successor.

[@flfar3445]

I love this ship one of my favorite, this and hipper tirpitz bismarck and a few others lol

[@johnmonkus4600]

As an American kid in Germany in the fifties, Langsdoff's widow was a neighbor. She and her daughter had lots of Graf Spee memorabilia, including Langsdorf's sea chest. It was beautifully carved wood, including a Nazi eagle, complete with swastika, illegal to this day in Germany. There are exceptions to that law. This video explains how she got all of these things off a ship that was scuttled.

[@gilanbarona9814]

It's a Wagnerian story. Naval version. This is an excellent video, by the way. Thanks.

[@sarjim4381]

The Germans would have done much better relying on merchant raiders, as they had during WWI. The Merchant Raiders used in WWII were cheap to put in service since it was just a matter of adding equipment to existing ships. They had the advantage of surprise since they were merchant vessels to begin with, not warships, and became masters of disguising their ships as neutral vessels. They had the ability to far outrange warship like the Graf Spee dueto their very large bunkerage, and a major warship would attract the attention of a large part of the RN. Merchant cruiser only attracted a major fleet effort as individual ships became too successful. The Germans were able to put 13 merchant raiders in service over the first three years of the war compared to two ships of the Graf Spee class. If the Graf Spee's had a role at all, it was as part of the fleet as large cruisers. Sailing the seas alone in such a large and distinctive vessel just made it that much more likely they would be tracked down and destroyed. The raider Atlantis, for example, sank more than 162,000 long tons in her 602 days at sea while the Kormoran sank over 100,000 tons of enemy shipping before sinking the cruiser HMAS Sydney in a mutually destructive battle. Merchant raiders were often commanded by officers who enjoyed the role of legal pirates operating far from the formal oversight of the Kriegsmarine. These raiders tied down far more RN forces that the two ships of the Graf Spee class ever could, and sunk far more tonnage. If the Germans had 20 merchant raiders in service at the outbreak of war, they would, along with the U-boats, have put Britain's survival in serious doubt. [Edited for typos]

[@nightlightabcd]

I doubt it! keep in mind that the allies had caught on to that trick and had armed merchant shops of their own out looking for them and with the convoys!. All German armed merchant raiders would have been dealt with even easier for the allies built more and more jeep carriers to guard the convoys to a point that it was down right stupid and suicide to attack a convoy, since the convoys were actually used as bait as German subs discovered to their horror! Their happy times were short lived and armed merchant raiders would have been no more than for sport shooting!

[@sarjim4381]

I think you need to read the history of each raider and the tonnage sunk by them before 1943. British merchant cruisers were uniformly sunk by German raiders when they encountered them. They were a true waste of money. Prior to 1943, the German raiders sank 141 vessels for a total of just under a million tons. They sank more tonnage for dollar spent to outfit them than any German asset. They were certainly a better value than building more Graf Spee class ships considering all other German surface vessels only sank 60 ships for a total of less the 400,000 tons. The raiders were sunk by allied warships and submarines, although one also sank an Australian cruiser in a mutually destructive battle. Another, the Stier, was sunk in an improbable battle with the Liberty ship SS Stephen Hopkins during another mutually destructive battle. The advent of the escort carrier played no part in the loss German raiders. It was the advent of more strongly escorted convoys, including the carriers, that put an end to the usefulness of the merchant raider but, while there were lone ships sailing unescorted, the German raiders were the terror of the seas.

[@jamestheotherone742]

@@sarjim4381 The Germans built the heavy warships for political reasons (internal KM, Nazi Party, and Industrialists). Since they had no hope of taking on the RN in a fleet battle, the only useful thing for them to do is go commerce raiding. Yes the merchant raiders were vastly more cost efficient, but only to a degree. The same anti-submarine tactics designed to counter the U-boats also make commerce raiding ineffective. The only place where the merchant raiders would be viable is in the periphery shipping routes where the naval presence was thinner and they could pick off single ships. IOW- Strategically insignificant.

[@sarjim4381]

@@jamestheotherone742 Indeed, the Nazis built warships to primarily appear to be as powerful as possible as individual vessels. The Deutschland-class cruisers weren't built just as commerce raiders. They were built to be as powerful as possible within the supposed 10,000 ton limit limit imposed by the Versailles Treaty. As commerce raiders, they were failures since the RN would always sent as many task forces as needed to hunt them down and destroy them. Merchant raiders, OTOH, just blended in with the other thousands of merchant ships plying the oceans. As I pointed out in my previous post, the German merchant raiders sank 141 vessels for over a million tons total. How you think that's strategically insignificant is beyond me. This doesn't included ships captured with valuable cargoes and sent back to Germany to be offloaded and added to Germany's merchant navy. The introduction of convoys made the raider's jobs more difficult, but ships sailed from allied ports every day that weren't part of convoys up until late 1943. After that, the allies finally had enough escorts and crews so the vast majority of shipping was part of convoys.

[@jamestheotherone742]

@@sarjim4381 "the German merchant raiders sank 141 vessels for over a million tons total. How you think that's strategically insignificant is beyond me." Because there were thousands of allied flagged ships and hundreds of millions of tons shipping that got thru just fine in the same time period.

[@matthewrobinson4323]

Excellent as always. One minor correction, though. She was sunk in December, not in September 1939.

[@clartypaths840]

yes, I've always thought it was 17th December 1939, which is my mothers birthday.

[@russg1801]

As usual, a brilliant German engineering solution. But, like all of man's creations, she had an Achilles Heel - the diesel fuel conditioning system designed to turn ordinary bunker oil into fuel suitable for an internal combustion engine.

[@Chrinik]

@Alexander Challis Machinery and structural problems after running the engines for months on end is actually expected, even british and US warships undergo regular engine overhauls and if they can't, the engines break down. The british and US navies however, enjoy the benefit of many overseas bases in which they can carry out these repairs, where as the Kriegsmarine did not.

[@mwnciboo]

Love the Exeter and the other cruisers, out classed, still fronted up and put her fists up for the battle - Proper courage, and the team work by the RN was good. When you force the enemy to avoid battle and self-scuttle that is a big win. Less risk, still the outcome you want.

[@bradster1708]

Search out the battle of Samar, US destroyers take on a dozen Japanese battleships and cruisers. The battle of North Cape also features British cruisers charging down on German battleship Scharnhorst.

[@BrianSmith-ow9gy]

@@bradster1708 Also read up on Captain Sherbrooke's Victoria Cross for his gallant defence of Russian convoy JW51B where the Admiralty deployed the novel tactic of using destroyers to defend convoys to Russia.

[@kurtsherrick2066]

The Spee is a top ten war ship. I believe Langsdorff won the battle but lost the ship. He was not a Nazi. He was a Christian that treated his prisoners with dignity. He sunk 9 merchant ships without one life being taken. Langsdorff and his action saved his men and many British sailors too when he scuttled his ship. The British Hip Hip Arrayed Langsdorff and the skeleton crew. The Graf Spee could have possibly took out the Achilles and Ajax but decided his men were more important than Valor and a crippled ship. May be Rest in Peace.

[@benwilson6145]

Langsdorff reason the scuttle the Graph Spee is known, it can easily be found online.

[@sirdudleynightshade8747]

Your details of battle damage differs considerably from other documentaries as does your description of Graf Spee's armour. I wonder how this comes about.

[@leftcoaster67]

This is going to sound weird. But wouldn't this class of cruiser be actually useful in modern navies? 10000 nm range at 20 knots. Remove some of the secondaries, and replace with Tomahawks and Harpoons, and upgrade the AA. The 11" Guns would be effective as a floating artillery platform.

[@enforcerlucario932]

My most favorite Ship of all ships the Graff Spee I loved it because of it's bigger Tower that gave it a unique look.

[@keithrobinson5067]

Very interesting and informative. My wife's dad was on the lancastria when it was sunk,it would be great if you can tell the story of the lancastria

[@johnwilliamsscuba6487]

Q&A I'm sorry I have a question the British Cruiser that was hit and lost internal communication don't you British guys you sound-powered phones? If you did don't you have salt and pepper lines to run in case of such an emergency? Even in today's military we still have sound-powered phones and we still have salt and pepper lines basically it's like speaker wire on a spool 1 wires white the other black hence the name you run it from one place on the ship to another usually place it in the overhead so that it's not going to be snagged and you hook it into your sound powered phone system so that you can communicate. With voice.

[@martigrey5872]

Please cover the Hipper Class.

[@Drachinifel]

Simon Leichtmetall it is on the list :)

[@philthorne2009]

Much love to Hans Langsdorf,a true human being, captain oh my captain, saved the lives of all his lads, much love and respect!!!!!

[@sctm81]

He made his decision based on the information he had at the time. I wouldn't want to be the one to make that decision myself.

[@CliSwe]

Excellent presentation. Apart from ... Drach, RN ships are either 'HMS Whatever' or 'the Whatever'. Never 'the HMS Whatever'.

It would appear that Hitler protected the Kriegsmarine ships as did the Kaiser (who considered his ships toys that must be kept in port, lest they should be damaged)

[@Zhukov-3]

Another great ship that would be better in dock so people could look at her! My British and German friends I wish you knew a world without war!

[@HumphreyHorsehead]

You have to respect the Kriegsmarine, and by extension the Imperial German Navy in WWI. They knowingly opposed superior forces and fought like lions.

[@michaelsnyder3871]

Like so many ships built between WW1 and WW2 that were based on the WW1 experience, they got caught up in the technology race. The ability of ships to carry even floatplanes allowed possible opponents to find, track and avoid them. Their major successes were against unescorted ships sailing alone. Radar would also remove their ability to operate at night and their gunnery advantages. With better planning the British force at the River Platte could have used aerial spotting with HMS Exeter to increase the range and reduce the penetration effects of the 28cm guns, while the two light cruisers could have pincered the Graf Spee and engaged at ranges beyond her secondary battery. But the real killer was the development of carrier airpower, especially escort carriers. Carrier scouts and strike aircraft could disable or destroy these ships before they ever got into range. In the context of strategy, operational art at sea and tactics in the late 1920s these ships made sense. By 1939, they made less sense and by 1942, they were basically obsolete and nearly useless.

[@danielholland2317]

Please cover the Leander Class light cruisers of the royal navy (HMS), specifically HMAS Perth, or HMAS Australia (Battlecruiser), or Daring class destroyers, specifically HMAS Voyager (D04).

[@brianspendelow840]

HMAS Australia never fought a battle. Her sister ship HMS New Zealand is far more interesting. She fought in three and came through unscathed. Some say this was thanks to Maori magic.

[@jimcrawford5039]

She was a fine looking ship and the best looker out of the three.

[@happyhighway106]

#294 Very well presented Mr. Drachinifel! Second guessing the History, well several things could have been done differently. First, upon sighting the British Cruisers, turn stern and make smoke and use every advantage to get away! Using zig zag during the night may have provided the tactic to disappear and head home.

[@redjacc7581]

Do you think the outcome would have been different if HMS Cumberland was present with the other 3 cruisers?

[@matthewrobinson4323]

Q: What can we learn from the Graf Spee"s fate? A: Never, ever believe the British! Ü

[@bradster1708]

What a silly comment! Use of deception by misinformation is a common tactic in warfare. The clever use of radio transmissions actually saved a lot of lives, both German and British. A real example of a country that always lies is china.

[@matthewrobinson4323]

@@bradster1708 It was intended to be a silly comment. It was a joke.

[@bradster1708]

Matthew Robinson, silly comment intended for humour, not serious comment, got it, thanks. It is extremely difficult to make comments with text involving sarcasm without them being misinterpreted, even more difficult these days as many people will deliberately misinterpret comments to cause harm. Anyway no harm, no foul as they say, cheers mate!

[@kiandocherty3589]

"The sun never sets on the British Empire because not even God trusts the British in the dark."

[@matthewrobinson4323]

@@kiandocherty3589 The sun never setting also made for a longer work day in areas without artificial lighting. Also, it can be truthfully said, "The sun rarely SHINES on the British Isles, and so the sun never setting on the British Empire was a form of compensation". Just a thought.

[@holysmoke8439]

Just paid 20$ for this boat ...it's guns bring the pain on level 6

[@dougauzene8389]

So - "Huntsman" - Captured; Get "Snow White" Too (Assume lt Existed-Ok?) Kriegsmarine: Snow White & The Huntsman!

[@samstewart4807]

So glad to see a non biased view of this action. Finally! An explanation of the damage causing her to seek port.Has anyone ever explained what this fuel processing plant was?Did it convert #6 bunker oil to diesel? I also have never heard about her engine condition. Any idea how many 11 inch shells were left? Or what they felt was her safe top speed?

[@Drachinifel]

The processing plant converted the bunker fuel into usuable engine fuel, as far as I can tell this was partially to reduce the amount of active volatiles on the ship and partially so that the ship could use bunker fuel from foreign ports and captured ships without worrying if it was poor quality fuel that might gunk up the engines. According to some reports by the time of the River Plate battle the ships maximum safe sustained speed was 24 knots, and attempts to exceed this during the battle had done further damage to the engines.

[@Drachinifel]

And as for ammo, they still had enough to help scuttle the ship, but they'd used well over half their main battery ammo between raiding and the battle, Langsdorff apparently believed that even trying to just fight past the British might exhaust his remaining ammo, which would leave them helpless if they ran into anything on the way home.

[@brianspendelow840]

The Graf Spee only carried 100 round per gun for her 11 inch. Not only was most of her ammo gone but moat of what was left was amour piecing, the least effective f the three types carried when fighting cruisers. I think this is a well balamced report and it's good to see HMS Cumberland get a mention.

[@samstewart4807]

Thanks. I have wondered for yrs about this plant. Ok so if this processing plant was broke and they had no ammo the ship was junk.AND if they could only make 24 knots- you can bet her speed would have soon dropped more. Why has it taken 79 YEARS for this basic info to become generally available? Why did they not consider letting the ship be interned? in port?

[@Drachinifel]

Most of it was available from just after WW2 when the results of the salvage and the ships crews interviews and reports became known. But as with a lot of things from this period the most flashy bits about the fight get emphasized at the expense of the detail. For example, many accounts of the battle will mention that the ship was low on ammo, or make a deal about the large amount of superficial damage (eg to the secondary and anti-aircraft battery). But since the overall loss of speed and the destruction of the fuel processing equipment don't tie into the outcome of the battle itself, they get ignored by basic and pop-history. (The Graf Spee would have had to have fought through the night and into the next day for the fuel situation to become critical and the ships guns and armour meant the relative loss of speed was somewhat irrelevant as long as the British chose to fight, save for perhaps making it easier to aim torpedoes). It's also a case of death by a thousand cuts, no one issue save for running out of ammo would've made it impossible to get home, even if the fuel system was wrecked if the engines were still working and there wasn't a hole in the bow they probably could've made a run for a friendlier port, etc. So unless you go into the fine details of the battle these smaller issues don't really get talked about. As for internment, the primary issue was that the government was friendly to the British, getting interned in Montivideo would've basically meant the British could have had agents aboard within hours of the crew being escorted off. Hence why they were thinking about making a run for Germany-friendly Argentina, which would not have let that happen, but Langsdorff evidently did not think the ship would survive a fight with Renown, which the Graf Spee could not have shaken or fought off even in new condition.

[@simonschuh5283]

I would like to hear about the Kongo class battlecruisers

[@chitlika]

its HMS AJAX pronounced aayyjacks Named after an ancient Greek hero not a bloody Dutch soccer team

[@BackFromTheMadeUp]

Isn't it RNZN Ajax?

[@chitlika]

@@BackFromTheMadeUp Achillies was a Kiwi ship and they had a couple of other leander class cruisers but I believe Ajax was RN

[@chitlika]

Achilles was the RNZN Ship Ajax was RN@@BackFromTheMadeUp

[@K1W1fly]

@@chitlika Archilles was at that time still Royal Navy, but manned by New Zealanders as part of the NZ Division, Royal Navy. The Royal New Zealand Navy wasnt formed until October 1940.

[@packr72]

The wreck now is mostly still intact but it’s almost completely settled into mud. It’s no longer considered a threat to navigation.

[@todo9633]

God, I saw the title and the first thing I thought was "Kill My Self Graf Spee". Poor Langsdorff :_(

[@AWMJoeyjoejoe]

He was a good man. It was a real shame what happened to him.

[@Vagabond820]

My question is: if your crew was going to be interned anyway, why scuttle the ship over it also being interned?

[@Drachinifel]

They didn't want the British inspecting the ship and possibly learning its secrets.

[@n3zyd]

Please cover the last surviving Pre-Dreadnought cruiser USS Olympia they want to tow her out to sea and make her an artificial reef.

[@jarodstrain8905]

I'm a little vague on one point. Could a ship be attacked in a neutral port? What would hypothetically happen if ships from adversarial nations both arrived in the same neutral port??

[@musoangelo]

The fact that the Graf Spee was one of the very few motor ships (Diesel power) of her day, it would be nice to learn more of how and why that decision was made and the specific lay out of the machinery.

[@jean-pierrelandry516]

Diesel power was installed to provide reliability and fuel economy required for long commerce raiding patrols. Steam turbines would have been more powerfull BUT less reliable and less range.

[@benwilson6145]

@@jean-pierrelandry516 Steam turbines are far more reliable than Motor Ships at this time.

[@MrLukasboys]

There are certainly worse fates for a sailor in the Kriegsmarine *cough* being on a U-Boat *cough* or indeed any member of the German armed forces during WW2. Sail around the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean for a bit and in the most humane way possible raid enemy merchant activity and after one battle live the rest of the war in neutral Argentina.

[@benwilson6145]

Many of the Nazi Officers escaped from Argentina and went to Peru where they were taken by Japanese Liners to Japan. From there the went by the Trans Siberian Railway back to Germany. The commander of U 162 Fregattenkapitän Jürgen Wattenberg was one of these man.

[@justandy333]

aa guns being replaced by 605mm guns!!!!!! Bloody hell!!! 🤣🤣🤣

[@bradmiller2329]

Giant shotgun shells? 😁

[@somedude5951]

What an awe some ship, crew, and captain.

[@pallegantzhorn3742]

too bad langsdorf shot him self. he was a honorable captain, and should have returned to germany as a hero after the war

[@pickeljarsforhillary102]

HMS not-so Swift please.

[@ejt3708]

It has been long time since I've compared stats on the Graf Spee, but I have wondered what would happen if the concept was brought forth to a modern navy. Permit me to fantasize a little? It's my understanding that modern anti-ship missiles would never penetrate WWII-style armor. Chopham (sp?) and even reactive armor would lighten the load. Phalanx-type systems can still defeat a lot of ordinance. JDAM-style bombs could defeat the armor, but only if the planes got past AA missiles. Torpedos would need to be pretty long-range. The ship might even survive a smaller nuke, if kept at a distance. Large guns are marginally useful nowadays I suppose, but if it had only one very large gun (18"+?) in bow and stern, it would make a mess if it got in the middle of any fleet or close to any port, or coastal city. A ship that had the speed of a frigate or fast-attack sub but the missile capacity of a carrier might be able to take out AWACS and slip away at night. The ocean is still a big place. Thoughts, anyone?